Your favourite football kit and what it tells you?

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1:01Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. The Club World Cup is in full swing with early victories for Chelsea and Manchester City. And on today's show, we'll be hearing from our other man in America and discussing the latest transfer news and rumours too. We're also joined by a special guest to discuss the significance of football shirts in different parts of the world and choose some of our favourite kits from down the years. I'm Tom Clark and joining me as usual, we have the former footballer and writer Gregor Robertson. And for part one of today's show, we have the reporter and journalist who covers clubs in the south of England, but is currently in the USA.

1:38It's Pete Rutzler. Good morning, Pete. Good morning. How early have we got you up? Very early, right?

1:47Pete Rutzler: It's only 8am. It's not too bad. 8am. That could have been worse. Yeah, could have been worse. But still, thank you very much for joining us. we spoke with Herstie on Monday and before we get into the football obviously the reason that you're out there is to cover Chelsea the main team that you follow for the Times but before that this is a new tournament and it strikes me that back home my conversations with friends and looking at the comments of Times readers on the Times website that the main interest actually stems from how the tournament is being perceived what the interest levels are like what the crowds have been like what the atmosphere has been like so I wanted to start with your first impressions of the Club World Cup having been there for, what is it, four or five days now?

2:26Pete Rutzler: Yeah, I suppose my first impressions are slightly coloured by the first game, which was Chelsea's 2-0 win over LAFC, which saw obviously 22 ,000 fans in a stadium that could, when expanded, the Mercedes-Benz in Atlanta hold 75 ,000. So it's slightly coloured by the wave of empty seats in front of me there. which was quite unusual because Atlanta, it sort of styles itself as being an epicentre of soccer. You've got the new US men's national, well, the United States soccer, main St. George's Park equivalent being built just south of the city. Atlanta United's one of the most well-followed sides in the MLS, average attendance of about 44 ,000, which of course is double what we saw on Monday.

3:18Pete Rutzler: Wow, interesting. um so i a little underwhelmed to be frank um it wasn't like we were surrounded by you know lots of marketing for the tournament trying to get fans in and um i think the only time i saw an advert for the game now admittedly i wasn't exactly going around looking for it um was near the centennial parks near the olympic park in atlanta and that was after the game had happened right it as an advert for the game. So, yeah, it's not been huge. I think you speak when we're getting in a cab, going to the ground and whatever, the cat-pick driver's like, oh, why are you here? And you say, oh, there's a massive international tournament being hosted here.

3:57Pete Rutzler: And it's like, oh, I didn't know that. And it's been a bit of that. But I think it's very, I think you can see from the different games that have taken place that there is certainly an interest when some of the bigger teams play. And I think as we've probably talked about on the podcast. I think once the tournament continues, we're probably going to see that more, the interest increase. It feels like there's a kind of curiosity about it more than anything, rather than I'd say an excitement. I think, I mean, on the day of the game or the day before the game in Atlanta, I was just watching the, I think it was a Fox News thing and they had a full item on it.

4:38Pete Rutzler: And it didn't feel like, oh, they'd been asked to do it. It was just, this is happening here. And what is this thing? why have they changed the artificial pitch to be grass at the Mercedes-Benz, that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it's been a bit low-key so far. I think coming into Philadelphia, I only arrived yesterday. It does feel a bit different here. There's a lot more fans around. Obviously, City have been here. There are lots of Flamengo fans I've seen already. So maybe there'll be a bit different feel for heading into the game on Friday, Chelsea's next game on Friday. Just before we then get on to Chelsea then, you talked about that game 2-0 win against LAFC.

5:17In relation to some of the things you just said, what specifically are you talking about? Was there no atmosphere at all in that stadium? You've covered lots of different games. Did it feel like a pre-season game? Did it feel like one of those invitational tournaments? Or were the 20-odd thousand supporters in the stadium fully committed to it? It's just that there weren't as many as there could have been.

5:38Pete Rutzler: Oh no, they were fully committed to it. I'd say that. I mean, there was a group of LAFC fans behind the goal that provided the backdrop, like a group of their ultras. I mean, we're not talking about many. We're probably talking about a couple of hundred. So it had this kind of odd feel where you have a group of fans really trying to make a lot of noise, but just getting lost in the vastness of the emptiness, you know, like just fading around the ground. But no, I think those that were there were certainly committed to it. I mean, there was a mix. I mean, there were some Club León fans there as well.

6:15Pete Rutzler: So Club León were thrown out of the competition because they breached the multi-club FIFA's multi-club rules. And obviously LAFC qualified via a playoff, which happened only, I think it was less than a month before the tournament started, wasn't it? So that's all a factor in why we got that picture in Atlanta. LAFC were quite late to the party. I mean, in terms of LAFC's preparation, for instance, they had to use all of Club Leon's facilities. And then it was also three o 'clock on a Monday afternoon, which is a working day and for a tournament that no one knows about, I don't think people are going to go out of their way to show up.

6:53But yeah,

6:55Pete Rutzler: the fans were certainly behind it. There was a lot of Chelsea fans in there. The problem was it just was so spaced out. There were so many empty seats that you didn't really get that sort of feeling of the intensity of the support. Um, so yeah, I mean, you mentioned it was like a preseason game. I'd say, yeah, at times, I mean, before kickoff in the run-up, you were wondering if it was going to be like a COVID era game with social distancing. We're really selling this, aren't we? Listen, we've sent these guys out there, Gregor. We want to hear the honest, the honest reaction of what they're, what they're finding.

7:31Yeah, but it did.

7:33Pete Rutzler: It certainly improved once we got to kickoff. And I actually think, and I think this is probably a bit like, I think it was the game between PSG and Atletico. You could probably see the ground fill as the game went on, almost like when people actually were able to get there, they turned up. It did feel it had a pre-season feel. The game was pretty good. It wasn't a high-intensity elite competition type feel, but LAFC, I think coming into it, were pretty downbeat on their chances. Hugo Lloris, we spoke to him before the game. Pete, we'll come on to the game in just a second. I want to check in with Giggles Robertson, who I think, I'm pretty sure, listeners, is in such a chirpy mood because he's revealed before we started recording that he's got an air conditioning unit that he's using to keep himself nice and happy.

8:24So you've got Pete over there in America, jet-lagged, thinking, why the hell am I at this tournament? Me, sweating, trying to record this podcast. And old Chuckles is there. He's having a time of his life, keeping nice and cool. and apparently loving the Club World Cup, Gregor. You've fallen for it back home, have you? Yeah, I'm catching a chill actually in here. Anyway, sorry. No need to show off. No, it's funny the way we're framing this competition. There have been pockets of interest. The Boca Juniors Benfica game was pretty wild and also Boca Juniors. We've said this throughout. There are going to be some fans and clubs and nations almost who really do care about this and Boca Juniors fans are mental and they stormed the Miami beach and planting flags in the sand and their presence was undoubtedly felt and the game was pretty wild there were three red cards

9:21Di Maria rolling back the ears with a cheeky penalty that was really good and then the Real Madrid game yesterday for us seeing Trent playing his first game for Real Madrid Dean Housen, Xabi Alonso first time in the dugout and then on the flip side Al-Halal who again we're coming at this from a very Eurocentric sort of point of view, you're just sort of reminded the amount of money they've spent and they've got Simone Nzaghi in the dugout for the first time and a really stellar line-up with Ruben Neves, Jao Cancelo, Koulibaly Milinkovic Savic they've got a good team like you think yeah yeah maybe maybe just maybe they might surprise one or two so yeah there have been some interesting pockets but there's undoubtedly like there's still some games where you've seen the crowds and you've seen the standard and you think what was he thinking Gianni yeah well I mean you talk about strong teams and strong lineups and the standard of the play coming back to you then Pete Chelsea that 2-0 win against LAFC I was like quite surprised at what a strong team Enzo Moresca picked for this game you've had Neto, Parma, Madueke and Jackson all starting in the forward line Caicedo, Lavia, Colwell, Kukurea Rhys James is in there as well Rhys James I thought he'd be nowhere near this tournament wrap the lad in cotton wool and save him for next season but come back to that point I interrupted you on earlier Pete that actually the game was of a decent standard and what did you make of Chelsea's performance overall?

11:04Pete Rutzler: Yeah, I'll just say I do agree with Gregor as well. I do feel like what we saw in Atlanta might just be one of those early aspects of the tournament and you will once, like I say, with Flamengo coming up on Friday and we saw the Boca game and whatever. I think there is that, and there's certainly a curiosity at home judging from some of the TV numbers as well. I think one and a half million watched the Chelsea game on five, which is actually quite a large amount of people but yeah to the game there was a bit of apprehension particularly from LAFC because they're not the best team in MLS and Hugo Lloris before the game basically said look we're going to be really humble about it we think all three of the other teams in the group are better than us so that's Chelsea, Flamengo and Esperance Sportive de Tunis from Tunisia so you thought okay I was a bit worried about what the level might be but they acquitted themselves really well and as you say Tom this was against a pretty strong Chelsea line-up I think that kind of reflects how serious they want to take it and the fact that there is a good prize award on offer here and I think for Enzo Maresco it's a case of right let's get the group sorted let's get into the knockout stages and bank what we need to bank I mean it was£1.5 million for winning this game but yeah I think the apprehension was a little misplaced because part of it is playing in that environment and not really being sure if it's a pre-season game and whatever can lead to strange performances.

12:40Pete Rutzler: But Chelsea, as you'd expect, they play as they normally do. They control most of the game. I thought Nicholas Jackson was really good. We'll talk a bit about him and De Laat because both of them were impressive and that's really encouraging. I think that was probably the main focus from a Chelsea perspective that they might actually have some really good competition there. Do you think that's, I mean, early days, obviously, and I'm doing the classic presenters over-interpretation of a point here, but do you think there's a sense then that Jackson and De Lapp are enough? That's who Chelsea strikers will be going into this season?

13:14Or are they going to go back into the market and look at other strikers and other forwards as well?

13:19Pete Rutzler: I think those two will be the main two, but I wouldn't rule out Chelsea bringing in another type of forward. Obviously, they're still trying to sign a winger. That's likely. And they're going to push again for Jamie Gittins of Borussia Dortmund, who actually played for Dortmund in this tournament. It came off the bench, I think. So that's one that we expect to happen. But Chelsea also have an interest in Gio Pedro at Brighton. He's one of a number of players on the list. Hugo Eketike as well. They made an inquiry for earlier this month. But I think he's overpriced, really. I think his valuation is seen as too high.

13:56Pete Rutzler: I think it reports around€100 million, which is probably a bit too much for him. But I think that's not necessarily as a centre-forward. Those are sort of forwards that are seen as being a bit more versatile, having a bit more flexibility in how they're used. So that could happen. But I think in terms of out-and-out nines, they will be the main two. And I think the performance against it, I mean, it's LAFC, but Jackson's hold-up play was really good in the first half, got the assist for Neto's goal. De Lapp comes on, sets up two great chances for Fernandes, and one is also an assist. So, yeah, that's set up really quite nice.

14:37The assist was really good too. There's a lot, you know, De Lapp is, you know, what he's known for is his physicality and his power. But you saw in that moment, first of all, link-up play with Cole Palmer that everyone's hoping is going to be, you know, really fruitful for Chelsea this season. and like two really smart he shows to feet when the ball doesn't come he makes another run he's actually he's actually makes some really intelligent runs the lap he's smart as well always stretching in behind and got the ball and it was a good cross in for the goal so yeah early days but I think that was a promising start for him Pete

15:10Pete Rutzler: it wasn't an easy game though I'd just to say like you know they were 1-0 up and you think oh okay they're going to run we'll run away with it but then after half time I mean there was a little bit of slapstick where Olivier Giroud was warming up I think he was in his full kit. He seemed to have a shirt. But anyway, once the teams came back out, he was just standing on the touchline topless for a good five minutes. And no one was really sure quite what was going on. And he looked kind of perplexed. Anyway, it took a few minutes and then someone runs up and gives him his shirt. So I don't know if he did it on purpose, maybe.

15:39Pete Rutzler: You know, if it was a kind of modelling. I don't know. But anyway, once he came on, LAFC actually created some good chances. Dennis Buanga was really... Well, should have equalised actually. Robert Sanchez pulled off a good stop. and then De Lapp came on and actually lifted Chelsea. And I think to Gregor's point, actually being able to, if Jackson and De Lapp between the two of them, if there are games which are fading and suddenly you throw one of them on, De Lapp was incredibly physical as well. It was really as much of a handful as Jackson was, if not more. And it sort of lifted them. So if they can have that going into the season, that's a big boost.

16:12Olivier Giroud there still excelling. A nice reminder for listeners that Gregor Robertson once said that the French World Cup winner was not good enough to play in the championship. Anyway, show what he knows.

16:25Pete Rutzler: Pete, just a... That's a scandalous opinion. Thank you. No, I said he was good enough for the championship. I think you misrepresented me there, Tom. Just about good enough for the championship, I think the phrase was. But yes, that is World Cup winner Olivier Giroud. Pete, just finally, before we let you go, you touched on Chelsea's potential incomings, who they're targeting. Do you get the sense they might be got quite a lot of outgoings as well? this Chelsea it ownership group this era there just seems to be always players moving in moving out you would imagine if they want to sign the players that you suggested in the question a few seconds ago they'd have to see some players leaving as well would that be the case?

17:04Pete Rutzler: Oh yeah they definitely want some to leave I mean there's a few they've left behind we're just counting the numbers actually I think they've got 28 here that's not including Wesley Fofana who's injured and then we're talking about William Esteval coming in from Palmeiras and then you're suddenly up to 30 and then they've left about I think 7 or 8 back home, I think it might be around that number but you've got Raheem Sterling, Ben Chilwell Renato Vega who else is there Gio Felix these are players that basically went on loan elsewhere during the second half of the season or during the season and don't really have a future at Chelsea so they're all players that they'll want to move on.

17:48Pete Rutzler: I don't think it's a case of have to in terms of financial perspective because their PSR position is actually okay, helped of course by selling the women's team to essentially themselves. They're in a strong position but there are players that they will need to move on because the size of the squad is too big. Even you'd say there are players here, they've got seven centre-backs. We spoke to Mamadou Saar who was signed from Strasbourg we spoke to him this week and he seems a really confident lad speaks about I aim to be the best defender in the world and he modelled his game on Virgil van Dijk but he's one of seven centre-backs that are here and that doesn't include Fafana so again there's going to have to be some kind of flexibility there and there's obviously I mean it's not as much of a priority but there's talk of maybe if something becomes available Chelsea looking at centre-back too Pete Pete, do you get any sense of what Mureska feels about this?

18:49I mean, I know when he first came in last season, he was very blunt about it all and just, you know, cutting down the numbers, working with a certain squad and group of players. But to also get the feeling that this sort of churn is probably never going to end, it's part of their blueprint to just sign the best young players around. What do you think Mureska feels about the project and the reality of that for a head coach when you're trying to create some sort of chemistry?

19:17Pete Rutzler: Maresk has been quite interesting, actually. I mean, we spoke to him once, we'll speak to him today ahead of the Flamengo game. He's been quite relaxed and much more relaxed than he was at the second half of the season. I think it's quite similar to last summer in that in his mind, he has a core group that isn't as big as we all see. And then that's just how he deals with it and works with the players that are in front of him. I think that's part of the job. He's kind of just... I don't think he's in a position where he can really dictate... In terms of the shape of what he wants in the squad, of course, he was talking about the need for a left winger because Chelsea are...

20:04Pete Rutzler: after Jadon Sancho left there they seem to be short in having a right-footed left winger but in general in terms of the actual squad make-up I don't think that's he will have a picture of who he sees as part of his senior squad and then the rest is for the club to kind of deal with. Another big summer ahead for Chelsea and Enzo Marescu you can read more about Pete's time at the Club World Cup on the Times website now you can also read about Makailo Mudrick, the Chelsea winger, facing a four-year doping ban after an FA charge. Just before we head into a quick break, I just wanted to read some thoughts from a listener, David, who got in touch.

20:44He lives in America and he had this today. Surely the Club World Cup is a strain international football should not bear. But here we are. For fans in the United States, it provides new proof that MLS teams are still far away from European and South American teams and that Lionel Messi, Olivier Giroud, Gregor et al, are really just for show. our many skilled players are in England and Italy still I certainly am grasping the opportunity to watch teams like Flamengo, Fluminese and Boca Juniors meanwhile the North Central Caribbean Conference is holding a month long Gold Cup competition that has drama and excitement a major rivalry is USA Mexico but neither is the presumed winner there is resurgent Canada under Jesse Marsh Jamaica under Steve McLaren and several other squads that may well qualify for the World Cup the wheel never stops does it turning on the Times website now I find the new Premier League schedule with Man United versus Arsenal on that first Sunday.

21:34David, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm both excited and terrified. We'll be keeping up to date with all the latest news on the game podcast throughout the summer. Pete Rutzler for now, thank you very much for joining us. We'll speak to you very soon.

21:46Pete Rutzler: Thank you very much, guys. Thanks to Pete Rutzler for joining us from the Club World Cup. And as I say, it's time for a little break, but stick with us. We've got a very special segment in the second half of the show all about football shirts. It's time for the quiz question. Only Gregor Robertson here to answer it. I think he'll manage it this time. nice and easy. Who am I talking about when I say a former footballer who played more than 150 times for Leeds United as well as featuring for Galatasaray and Melbourne Victory and featured in the Liverpool team which lost the Club World Cup final to Sao Paulo in 2005.

22:15Find out after the break.

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24:45Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and as usual I'm joined by Gregor Robertson who got the quiz question answer incredibly quickly. It was Harry Kuhl. Harry Kuhl, a left-footed wonder just like yourself, Gregor. Now it's time for something a little different on the game podcast as we are joined by Joey Durso, a senior data journalist for The Times and Joey has written a book about football shirts. That's right, basically the dream book for any football fan, Joey has written it. It's called More Than a Shirt, How Football Shirts Explain Global Politics, Money and Power.

25:24Joey, welcome to The Game Podcast. Thanks for having me. Thank you very much for coming on. Tell us a little bit about the book generally. I think this is the first time I've had some, no, maybe the second time I have some coming on. I need to make sure I get all my cues right. Joey, tell us about the book. I feel like I'm on BBC Breakfast or something. It's fantastic. I'll try to tell you about the book. So the basic idea is that football shirts, as well as being something you might wear to play sport or wear for fashion, can also be a tool to explain some of the biggest political topics of our age.

25:51One example I use is the Gazprom-sponsored shirt of Schalke, which I actually got with me. There you go. I mean, no one can see this. But I can confirm he does actually have the Schalke Gazprom shirt with him. This is incredibly good prep. The only bad prep is me not arranging video for this to ensure that it's real. But anyway, I can promise that listeners that that is true. Anyway, Gerry, carry on. And so Gazprom has basically been a tool of Russian aggressive foreign policy over the years. Russia selling cheap gas to Germany. And it all sort of culminated in the invasion of Ukraine. And it was all a bit embarrassing for Shulka because they had this Gazprom logo on their shirts.

26:29And I went there and I spoke to lots of people. And Shulka was much more than just a billboard for Gazprom. Shulka was where Gazprom executives would schmooze with German politicians. It was really this place where the sort of Germany-Russia political relationship was at its closest, which ended pretty embarrassingly for lots of German politicians. And what I saw in Gelsenkirchen in that stadium when I went a couple of years ago was fans wearing these Schulker shirts, but with a blue sticker covering up the logo. Yeah. But for them, like, you know, the Gazprom days are some of their happiest days.

26:59They won the German Cup. They got to the semifinals of the Champions League in, I think, 2011. So these were the sort of, they had Raul. So these were the glory days. but it all looks a bit grubby now because of the Gazprom link. Gazprom, of course, sponsoring the Champions League as well. Also, Red Star Belgrade in Serbia still has Gazprom on their shirts because Serbia is quite sort of close to Russia politically. And they're in the Champions League. They played Man City a year or two ago with Gazprom. And there are lots of other stories like this. I mean, stuff about the Middle East, you know, the green and white Newcastle shirt of the colours of the Saudi Arabian flag.

27:31Qatar Airways on Barcelona. So yeah, I've just found all these sorts of stories from out the world, stories about you know america china finance migration told through football did you find other examples or other instances around sponsorship because we find we're going to talk about some of our favorite kits down the years and as i was researching some of them and looking them back up they seem to be just a little bit more innocent maybe a lot more innocent back in the day you know yeah companies electrical companies like local companies as well like clubs from a certain area were sponsored by a business that was from that area.

28:07Now it's big global business betting and, you know, brands, as you say, that perhaps clubs maybe wouldn't really want to be associated with, but they need the money. Yeah, I mean, you guys would talk a lot about the sort of, you know, the prices are going up, tickets are going up, wages are going up and football just, you know, needs more and more money to come from somewhere. And depressingly, I think fans just, you know, people just want to see their team do well, right? And sign good players. and I think fans maybe aren't too concerned about these sort of ethical questions. But yeah, you're right.

28:37There's some sort of quite charming examples from back in the day of really local business. I mean, even now, I know like, for example, Grimsby and the Young's Fish, which I believe Gregor would have won. With pride. You know, it's like Grimsby is famous for the, yeah, I mean, great local business, you know, and it's famous for its seafood and its fishing industry. So this stuff does still go on. And now I saw Cure Alexandra. it was a an oat oat company which had a long running we used to eat that at breakfast in the morning oh really did you get some free do you get some good freebies yeah yeah yeah that was any good fish you're right you're absolutely right even i was just thinking there chesterfield uh was a company called vk which was like if anyone remembers from previous student days yeah like alco pops yeah and we actually even ridiculously for professional footballers this shows how ridiculously old I am.

29:27We would have got like a crate at Christmas as a gift. Oh, that is great. But you're absolutely right. They do often tell you about local industry. Yeah. Joey, just coming back to the book before we get carried away with Gregor's great shirts of Gregor Robertson's career. What else are people going to learn from getting this book? Well, hopefully the football shirts can explain the world. And if you've got a drawer full of them, have a look through, have maybe a binge on Wikipedia or whatever else and you might be able to learn some things about the world around you. I've got another one here which I did briefly just mention but perhaps the shirt of the best club football team of all time which is the Barcelona 2010 sort of era.

30:05You know, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Guardiola which of course was sponsored by UNICEF which is the United Nations children's charity a very noble cause. Until 2006 Barcelona didn't have a sponsor at all. That Champions League final against Arsenal which I'm sure some of you listeners won't like to be reminded of at the 2-1 win for Barcelona in Paris, was the last shirt without a sponsor. And then UNICEF came along. Again, two wins against English clubs, Manchester United in 2009 and 2011 Champions Leagues. In December 2010, which was the year Qatar was awarded, the month Qatar was awarded the World Cup, there was another story about a week later, which maybe didn't get so much press, which was Qatar Foundation sponsoring Barcelona shirts.

30:45And then that quickly became Qatar Airways. So in the space of about six years, you had no sponsor to UNICEF to Qatar Airways, which is basically, you know, propaganda for a pretty oppressive state in the Middle East. And you now see, you know, Middle Eastern power play playing out in Newcastle, in Paris, Man City, Barcelona, and, you know, even like Arsenal, Emirates, Real Madrid Emirates, it's just everywhere. Yeah, absolutely fascinating. It is an absolutely brilliant book. Wonderfully written, says Martin O 'Neill on the cover. You must have been absolutely delighted with that. yeah well as a big Aston Villa fan I was pleased with that one yeah we're going to come on to you your support for Aston Villa in just a second with a wonderful anecdote from the book but Gregor just as a player we've touched on there Joey's done his research and mentioned some of the kits that you've played in down the years do players care about what the kit looks like do you know when you were a player did you talk about oh that's minging oh look at that away kit oh it's horrible and did you care about like the sponsors and all that kind of stuff does it matter sponsor's probably a bit less so but like the kit absolutely yeah i mean remember every year you get your photo taken at the photo shoot day and you know you've got to take a kind of slow walk out to the halfway line or wherever you're getting your solo picture and you know if you're wearing some monstrosity then it's you get dog's abuse but everyone has to do it so it's absolutely yeah players are players are pretty vain on the whole and they they want to look good so the kind of love for strips is definitely felt in the dressing room as well yeah just thinking back to like even because I was a Celtic fan growing up and there's again going back to the kind of locality of things that's a giant club one of the biggest clubs like Celtic fans will tell you around and they were sponsored I remember famously for a long time by C.R.

32:32Smith which was like a Scottish double glazing company it's like you know just sort of and now the Barcelona example was fascinating that just shows sort of the evolution of of you know how quickly it can take take place and how kind of globalized football has become i was also fascinated joy about your your intro just because of the you know you talked about landing in medellin and seeing a particular strip there but just the travels you've been on for this this is going to have been a real uh yeah a real journey yeah five continents i'd say south africa texas colombia qatar uh istanbul lots of places in Europe so yeah it's been a lot of uh it's been quite a ride uh yeah the Colombia one's pretty wild it's basically uh a football shirt with a gangster's face on the back um so there's a football club that was owned by basically a drug cartel you know the sort of Pablo Escobar was the richest man in the world in the 1980s all the cocaine trade coming out of Colombia he was killed in 93 but after that there was sort of various splinter groups one of them was a cartel in this town called Envigado just outside Medellin which was uh where Escobar was from and it was owned by this this sort of drug criminal basically and his um he was murdered in some sort of turf war his son took over the club and then in a tribute to his dead father he put his face on the back um and at that time the club was sanctioned by the American government so they had no sponsors not through some sort of noble ideology but because no one would do business with them because they didn't wanting to get in trouble by the American drug authorities.

34:04So, and I went to a match. The shirt was about 2012 and things are much more peaceful now and the club is in different ownership and, you know, we should probably say all that. Yeah, this guy was just wandering around with a dead gangster's face on the back. I've always wondered, Gregor, how this game podcast would come to end. I didn't think it would be at the hands of a Colombian drug cartel, but, Jerry, you seem to have got us in some potential trouble there. I am slightly disappointed, Jerry, that amongst all the shirts you've unfurled in front of me and Greg and you didn't go, and here it is.

34:31Here's the Columbia shirt, right? I've tried hard to find it. I mean, it was a job enough to get. Shirts? Oh, dozens of them. We haven't spoken about this one. I think that's maybe one of the best. We're going to talk about some of our favourites, but the Parma kit is truly, truly iconic. An absolute beauty. I just wanted to talk about in the introduction to the book, there's a wonderful story about, you mentioned you're an Aston Villa fan. There's a wonderful story about your first shirt and that kit in particular. and some of the kits Villa had does link slightly to some of the points we've made about sponsorship and locality and local business and things.

35:05Just tell the listeners that story about your first kit. Yeah, so I really remember it. Because I've been growing up, we were very much a Villa household and I've been going since I was old enough too. And I never really had a kit. I don't know if they were like less big thing in the 90s. I had all sorts of stuff and Claret and Blue paraphernalia. But my first kit, I remember my granddad died and my grandma sold her house and moved to my house. She basically had some cash and she gave all of her grandkids£100, pounds which was obviously an unbelievable amount of money when you're 10 and i remember saying like you know this isn't this isn't to be sort of put in a building society whatever you know this is for you go and spend it on something stupid so i did and i got you know the brand new aston villa kit from jjb or whatever it was um and i was you know full kit walking around you know at the weekend um and it had rover on the front um rover being of course the car factory um a couple of miles down the road from where I grew up in South Birmingham, same city as Aston Villa.

35:57But very sadly, 2005, pretty soon after that, Rover imploded. It became insolvent. And, you know, it's a sort of decline of British manufacturing. I mean, bluntly, it's just cheaper to make cars in Eastern Europe, in Asia, where labor is a lot cheaper. And that was a big thing for people. You know, a lot of people lost their jobs. It's quite a sad story of people who had these, you know, jobs in factories that paid well, that fed their families for decades on end and it's all you know it's all gone and that world doesn't really exist anymore um yeah so that's the story that you know it's a bit of a sad story when i look back on that shirt you think it tells a bigger political story and also there's a lot of that in england of sort of you know northern rock comes to mind with newcastle the sort of noble local business that now has i mean that's kind of worse in that it's symbolizes the sort of collapse of the global economy but um yeah the sort of decline of these local wholesome brands and the replacement with stuff that maybe feels a bit less so Gregor do you still have all your kits because Joey talked about all the kits in the teams you played for did you I think I've asked you this before you're quite ruthless aren't you I think you've literally got about two no I kept one of each team one from each team I know I have a Scotland on the 21s kit but I think I said before I gave away my debut shirt to Paddy McCarthy Crystal Palace's Paddy McCarthy when we played Republic of Ireland on my debut got on the bus afterwards and was like what the hell have I done there?

37:19So like, and I do actually slightly regret not swapping, you know, that's probably your next question. I can see it in you, Tom. But I really, I didn't really do it. You know, I've played against some good players and some bad players, but the good players would have been worth swapping shirts with. And you never thought of it? Or you were just trying to be cool? You were trying to be like a Roy Keane hard man type thing? I don't know. I think when you're young, you kind of probably don't think too much into too far into the future and maybe you've got a bit of arrogance and think that you know you might be playing them more often yeah how did you decide which one shirt from each team to keep was it always just from the last game or your best game or whatever like I think it was the first seasons because you got your you got given your shirts at the end of the season certainly like in those days and so you would get four or five and I would give a few to my mates or whatever and then I would keep one of each team at the start from the first year at H Club.

38:16Did your mates want them? Of course they did, yeah. They'd play like five asides to Power League in them and stuff with Robertson in the back. In a Gregor Robertson-Chesterfield kit. That is that. That is loyalty for you. It's niche, you know. You've got some good mates. I'll say that for you. Do you ever do the thing of marking someone at the end of a match if they had some big star on the other team and you want to get their shirt? Or did any of your teammates do that and get flat for it in the dressing room? Your teammates definitely did that in like FF Cup games and stuff. I remember playing against Middlesbrough in a pre-season friendly and playing against Mark Verduka.

38:48You want Janine or Verduka? Again, I was a Celtic fan. I played against Mendieta that day as well. And he would have been another really good one. But Verduka was the guy I looked at that day and thought. And I actually smashed him once. I really left one on him. And he wasn't... I don't think he would have said yes. So that kind of ruled out. It sounds like you need an investigative journalist with a love of football shirts to not only track down your first Scotland Under-21 shirt, but also maybe try and get you a Mark Vaduka shirt. Mark Vaduka shirt. That would be lovely. I'm sure you could send him a message.

39:19I think he could be the man for the job. Joey, you've already shown us some of the wonderful kits from your collection. It obviously prompts the final debate for the show. What are your favourite kits from down the years? Either Villa kits or ones that you've got that you cherish, anything like that? The Villa kit, the Acorns kit from 2008, 2010, obviously it's quite a wholesome sponsor, which is quite nice. some of the ones since then less so uh also it's just a good it was a good time to be a villa fan it was like 2008 2009 2010 martin o 'neill was coming sick european football and everything kind of went belly up for about a decade after that so all of those there's some of those kits from about 2015 16 when villa were awful but i get like a shudder when i see you know i see sometimes you sometimes see a villa park you're wearing them it's like why are you wearing that i literally have like a kind of visceral like it's just just brings back horrible memories and then yeah I've got a Boca Juniors one I like I've not been there but I just I like the colours the yellow and yellow and blue I've got a Dortmund one I actually had this when I was in India and there was loads of I think they were fake but they're pretty high quality and very cheap so I was shopping around and it's like which one do I want because I'm honestly not going to get an English you know it's all the sort of big Super League teams it's like I'm honestly not going to wear an English one I was like do you want Real Madrid I've settled on Dortmund as a good the sort of the most niche of the Super League teams Yellow, I think, is important in a kit.

40:37Just very quickly as well, it strikes us that none of us seem to be having loads of kits of our own. I just wanted to quickly mention a good friend of mine who's an Arsenal fan. He has nearly 50 different Arsenal shirts. He's got one from, he's got like a list of players. All of them have names on the back as well. And he's like an absolute fiend on eBay. He manages to track down these shirts and he'll often send them to me and our mates and be like, do you reckon 100 quid is too much for this? and then I'll be like, does your wife know you're paying that much for a shirt? He's like, no, don't tell her.

41:08Now I've outed him on the game podcast. Kate, hello, how are you doing? Nice of you to listen. But I mean, people are obsessed with it, aren't they? I mean... Arsenal's an interesting one because Arsenal released an insane number. They probably have three, I think they have a fourth kit now, but they have all these sort of casual wear. They literally released like 50 garments last season, you know, sort of baseball varsity jackets. It's like ridiculous. And people buy them, like, you know, fair play to them. Yeah, he's an absolute fiend in the end of season sales as well. That's where he does particularly well.

41:32Just something that I wanted to mention, the Newcastle kit. I already mentioned it in the 90s with the Newcastle brown ale on. Absolutely wonderful. I have such a fond memory of Liverpool's cream away kit. I think it was from the 96. The ecru, ecru, ecru, yeah. I've mentioned this moment so much. It's lovely, yeah. With a sort of round collar, round badge. Round collar, round badge. Absolutely delightful. Manchester United's goalkeeper kits for Peter Schmeichel were always class. Gregor, any special kits that you had down the years? Were they all Celtic or did you use? They were all Celtic. I remember getting a really good Manchester United one and actually gave it to my friend.

42:05I was so devoted to Celtic at that point in time. But there was one that now I look back on. At the time, I loved it. It was like a luminous yellow and black. It's known as the bumblebee strip. Oops. It was hideous. But looking back, that was like my pride and joy at the time. So yeah, Celtic have had some bad ones over the years. But I was just all about Celtic, to be honest. Your daughter's just turned four, is that right? And you've not yet bought her a kit? No, I feel like it's important. what that first kit is obviously you know you live in North London Arsenal women's team you know they're Champions League winners it won't be Arsenal I'm in East London Tom it could be late in Orient it could be I'm not going to make it West Ham that would be a legend but it could be late in Orient hearing a Scottish dad who lives in London go through the mental anguish live on a podcast and just a few others to mention international kits I think are where the real party lives Germany kits Adidas absolutely class always had fond affection for the Brazil kit but one of my favourites and I looked this up before Chili's kit from 1998-99 Reebok was the sponsor red and blue with a blue collar with a big white Reebok branding across like the top shoulder area I remember that Salas around that Marcelo Salas and Ivan Zamorano got to be one of the coolest footballers ever Joey thank you very much for joining us on the game podcast Joey Durso the Times data journalist has written an absolutely brilliant and fascinating book is called More Than a Shirt, how football shirts explain global politics, money and power.

43:36You can get it from, I don't know, all normal book retailers. I think that's what they say on BBC Breakfast. Amazon, Waterstones, it's out there. More Than a Shirt by Joey Durso. Go and check it out. Gregor Robertson and Pete Rutzler in part one. Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back next week to talk more football. We'll see you then.

44:29Apple Watch Series 12 diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from the Times Tech Podcast. AI is already changing business and medicine, but could it also change the way we look after our own health? In a special episode in Paid Partnership with Vitality, we look at how AI, wearables and everyday health data could help shift healthcare from treating illness to preventing it. Listen to the Times Tech Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.