Adrian Newey Exclusive: Why I Quit Red Bull & My Future at Aston Martin (E289)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance app. did I personally play in what happened? And I don't think we'll ever know with absolute 100 % confidence what happened. I think it got to Mercedes. And instead of saying, okay, well, accepting it and moving on, it started to affect their psyche. That is the voice of the F1 designer, Adrian Newey, who has just announced he's joining Aston Martin. And this is High Performance, the podcast that explores the stories and ideas of some of the most extraordinary people in the world. I'm Jay Comfrey, and like so many of you, I'm someone who's just fascinated by becoming a better version of myself.

1:16And I'm Damien Hughes, an expert in high-performance cultures. I've worked with the England national football team, Scotland and rugby, professional sports teams right across the world and with leading business people. to help them understand how to get the best out of themselves and others. In this show, we discuss both how people achieve great things and the why that drives them. This was a really enjoyable conversation, which I hope you find insightful. We go into the decision that Adrian made to join Aston Martin after almost 20 years at Red Bull, what he still hopes to achieve in the sport, why he's still carrying on, and also why so many of you have got Max Verstappen wrong and actually how Adrian himself misjudged Lewis Hamilton.

2:02Plus, Adrian shares his own unique approach to design and how he's one of the few designers who still rely on a drawing board. And he emotionally opens up on how the crash that took Ayrton Senna from us left a lasting impression on him. I really hope you enjoy this exclusive conversation with one of the nicest guys in the Formula One palette who's about to take on a very exciting new challenge as we welcome Adrian Newey to High Performance.

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4:19Adrian, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here. So, a few months ago, back in May, you said, F1 is all-consuming. I've been at it a very long time. As Forrest Gump said, I'm tired. Yeah. How refreshed is the man sitting with us today? It's been nice to be off the treadmill. It's the first time I have been really in my life, or my career rather. So just to be able to sort of sit back, enjoy life a bit, take the odd holiday here and there, enjoy family time. It's been fabulous. And, yeah, feeling much more refreshing. And when you get a chance to step off the treadmill legend, we often see things from a clearer perspective.

4:59What are the kind of reflections that you've had? Good question. I'm not a big reflector, I'm afraid. Just taking time to, as I say, sort of chill, walk the dogs, travel a small amount, got a bit more travel planned over the next weeks and months. And then I think, you know, I suppose then inevitably starts, of course, part of it's what next and what do I do the rest of my life? So I guess that's been a period of reflection over the last few months as to the first time really I've had that opportunity to reflect and think, what's the next move? Was there ever a moment where you thought, maybe I'll just retire?

5:46I know you like your sailing, sailing off into the sunset. Initially, yes, but I guess I always knew in my heart of hearts that I'd need something stimulating to be doing. And I think where I feel very lucky is that, well, first of all, I've ended up doing what I wanted to do since I was about the age of 10. And secondly, it's been a very stimulating job. It's very multifaceted in terms of working with all my fellow engineers, working with the drivers, working with the team. That kind of engineering of a machine, this is still a sport. So you've got that man and machine bit. And certainly I went to Southampton University to study aeronautical engineering.

6:34Not out of any interest in aircraft, but because I figured racing cars are closer to aircraft than anything else. I've been very lucky in that sense because I've ended up with a very stimulating career. Well, Adrian, the news is out. You are now officially joining Aston Martin from the start of next season. First of all, well done, congratulations. And I'd love to know what questions you asked yourself to finally come to that decision. I find that there comes a point where I feel as if I need new challenges. I think somebody else has observed this, somebody much more philosophical and cleverer than me, that the team's reached a good level of maturity.

7:15It's a very mature engineering organisation as well as the rest of the team. So in a way, I've kind of done my bit and I just feel as if now... I started to feel as if we're going a little bit stale. I think the guys also felt as if perhaps that they needed to show that they could do it on their own. So I thought, well, okay, let's give them the chance and give myself a new challenge. I think if I go back even 15 years, certainly 20 years, and say, would I want to work beyond 60? Probably not. Would I want to work beyond 65? Absolutely not. But then you get there, and I think there's various things.

8:02First of all, maybe it's, I don't know, maybe I'm guilty of it defining me too much and I worry about what I'd do if I didn't do that. But I don't think that's really the thing in my case. It's just trying to get that sort of balance right of it not being all-consuming because Formula One can be all-consuming. And with that consumption, of course, comes compromises, particularly family life and friends and so on and so forth. And that's the difficult bit. So what's Mandy, your partner, said about your decision? She said that I would drive her nuts if I wasn't working. So you're back in. I'm really interested to know what the team that you're joining said to you that made you go, yeah, okay, this is a project for me.

8:50What were you looking for that they were able to offer? Firstly, I feel as if I can make a difference. I guess one of my policies has been never to join a successful team. give yourself the challenge of joining a team at that point in time in any way at any rate is struggling a bit Williams when I joined had a bit of a lean period similarly with McLaren Red Bull and so was a start-up so I think that's the first thing is not to join a team that's at its peak but in particular to sort of feel as if it's a team that I could go in and hopefully make a difference, that I'd enjoy working with the people, I would be able to work in a similar way with them, and that we can all kind of go on a journey together.

9:43And really, that's on the engineering side, but on the, if you call it, managerial side, that I would have a partner that I could work with and that we could work together in terms of how we develop it. So what do you look for in terms of that relationship? I've been in the lucky position of kind of, I suppose, lots of teams approaching me, if I'm honest. It's been very flattering, of course. But as I say, it's looking for somebody, it's people who feel as if they're really passionate about it and that we will work well together and we can put a team together and take it forwards. And that can be a whole variety of teams along the pit lane.

10:41It's no single feature. You just get a feeling by talking to people. It's like any relationship. It's like finding a new girlfriend or whatever. It's like if you go on your first date, you don't necessarily have a question list lined up. You might have done your research on Tinder, but that's about as far as it goes, isn't it? Obviously, this is a huge decision. I mean, is it fair to say this is probably your last move in F1? Yeah, I mean, I honestly thought that if you'd asked me, even two or three years ago, would I ever be moving from Red Bull to another team? I said, absolutely no way. Red Bull would be my last team.

11:15But over the last really 12 months or so, things have slowly changed a bit to the point that's kind of after Suzuka this year, then I felt, no, I'm not being honest with myself. If I stay, I need to do something different. So that's where I am. But, you know, next year I'll be 66. and so I do another four or five years kind of then into my 70s. That has to be enough. I have to, at that point, my dream would be to be in a position a bit like Rory Burns achieved with Ferrari where I can then be a respected and regarded consultant to that team without being involved every day, day to day. and what is the difference between you joining a team now and when you joined Red Bull what like what are the differences that you're bringing I've only ever really had it one interest in my career which has been adding performance to a race car and I've tried to stay faithful to that so and the team I make that very clear that's don't hire me as a people manager or something like that because that's not me.

12:40We need to find people who work with me to allow me to concentrate on kind of my various activities of the relatively solitary one, if you like, of trying to absorb everything, standing at my drawing board and trying to create. Working with my colleagues, the other engineers, because I always, I hate overly high-level hierarchical ways of operating to me. We should all just kind of working flat as much as possible. So working with them, which is hugely enjoyable, kind of bouncing ideas, trying to discuss things with them. And then the third aspect really is the circuit, of then going to the circuit, talking to the drivers, trying to understand the problems the car experiences at the circuit compared to what's expected from all the simulation that we now have available to us, and then bringing that back to the factory and back into closing the loop.

13:46Because whilst we now have these so-called ops rooms, so virtually there in terms of all the data you can look at, all the monitors you can look at, you can effectively, all the engineers that choose to, can be virtually at the racetrack. but somehow it's still not the same as sniffing it and smelling it. And how soon can you be at the track with the drivers absorbing the information, soaking up the culture of the team because you and I both know, you from more experience than me but the sooner that can start the better. Yeah, so I mean contractually I can... My work with Red Bull, I've been out of the Formula 1 team really since after Suzuka, whenever that was, late April.

14:33but I've still been working hard on the RB17 track car, which has been a sort of side project, passion project really, which I've hugely enjoyed because it's something just a little bit different to Formula One. It's applying all the same principles that I've learned from Formula One, but to a different application. So I'm still working on that, and I'll still be working on that until the 1st of March. And then I will still be working on that after that 1st of March date, but not from the factory as much. It'll be more talking to the guys by video conference or whatever, emails, and then when the car starts track testing, which will be next summer, then attending track tests.

15:28Nobody hires Adrian Newey unless they want to win world titles. So have you discussed the timescale with the team about winning the world championship? No, I haven't. And I don't think it's... I know a lot of teams have this sort of five-year plan or whatever of going from back of the grid to front of the grid. I don't really look at it that way. You kind of come in, you work with the guys. the thing that does take time is if you need new tools, a new driver in the loop simulator, a new wind tunnel, those sorts of things, they have significant lead time associated with them. But at the personal level, it's really kind of just trying to work with the team and develop them and work with how we develop is the better way of putting it.

16:26and that doesn't, I don't think it has a defined time scale. You soon get a feel for how long it's likely to take. Perhaps one of the things that I did get right at Red Bull in the early days, or one of the things I got wrong when I started at Red Bull is I underestimated the challenge of that work, of getting everybody to work together, have confidence in themselves because Red Bull, okay, it's a start-up team, but strictly speaking, it was the Ashes of the Jaguar team. So it was a team that had been around, but I don't think they'd even had a podium. They'd certainly never won a race. They had been around for many years, never always finished about seventh in the Constructors' Championship.

17:14So they'd lost belief in themselves. They almost didn't believe they could win. and trying to work with them and start to give them the confidence that, yes, we can do this was part of it. And that's not by standing up on the stage and giving a rah-rah speech. It's just spending time with people. The other aspect was the infrastructure side, that the wind tunnel was underdeveloped. There's no driver in the loop simulator. A lot of the simulation tools were basic or distant, exist and that bit takes time. And I started early 2006. So the first car I was involved in from the start was a 2007 car.

18:01And with hindsight, I spent too long working on the design because that was my knowledge and comfort and not enough time early on developing the the infrastructure and the culture. But by kind of 2008, I thought, right, we're about in place now that if we can have a shot at designing a decent car. The problem is that that was a very stable set of regulations, and so you're always, it's a struggle to pick up and then actually overtake the incumbents. They've always got that advantage on you. So there's a big regulation change coming, and that was originally coming for 2008. And one of the things we did manage to do, I thought if we can get this delayed to 2009, we'll be in a much better chance to take advantage of it.

18:55So Paul Monaghan, who is our sort of FIA representative, I gave him the challenge of saying, look, see if we can get these delayed a year. And he managed it. and that really was what gave us our opportunities in 2009. We managed to come up with quite a good little car to this completely new set of regulations and that's kind of what then started to launch Red Bull as a team. You see, knowing you as I do, there's a huge, the biggest of big regulation changes coming for Formula One in 2026. Yeah. So this gives you a 12-month preparation period with your new team to get ready for that. I sense that that is music to your ears, right?

19:36Right. It is. I mean, it's going to be quite a compressed period, I must admit, because the regulations for that, in terms of the chassis regulations and the aerodynamics that go with that, they will be announced very early January. So I'll be two months behind the ball when I start. And the sort of mechanical layout, people can start much earlier than that. So it'll be quite a short time and learning to try to get myself up to speed straight away with a new team. So it's going to be an intense period, an intense challenge. But yes, you're right. That's an opportunity. Whether we can achieve this and hit it, who knows?

20:20By the way, just so you're fully aware, if someone that doesn't watch as much F.O.R. is involved, having Adrian Nui two months later than everyone else in your team for a regulation change is still the best option on the Formula One grid, right, by the way, which is why I think virtually every team in Formula One has picked up the phone to try and tempt you. So before we move on to the rest of your career, there's so much to talk about. How are you feeling about this new team and this new adventure? Excited. I mean, that's the whole point. If I wasn't feeling excited about it, I shouldn't be doing it.

20:50And I think that's, you know, that's, as I mentioned briefly earlier, Red Bull, for various reasons, I was just starting to feel a bit stale. And a lot of that's my own kind of making and being and so forth. So I'm not in any sense putting blame at other people's feet for that. I got myself in that position. And I just felt as if, you know, the easy thing to do would have been just sit there. At that time, obviously, the team struggled a bit since then. But at that time, we were dominating. We dominated the previous couple of years. just sit there, count statistics, take the money, go home in the evening.

21:34But I wouldn't have been honest with myself if I'd done that. And it would be all the wrong reasons. So I felt I needed a new stimulation, I needed to do something. And so I took the move of resigning effectively, not knowing what the future was going to hold, what you know whether whether other teams what offers there be if any what other offers there might be outside of Formula One whether I would actually say you know what had a great career I'll go and go sailing now for and that will do me I just didn't know but I think at times if you if you're not if you're not feeling as if you're being honest with yourself then then that's really not a good place to be.

22:27And I'm in the very lucky position where I'm in that sort of don't need to work to live. It's more the live to work. I think live to work's a bit too extreme because I don't live to work, but I do enjoy that. But can I explore, Adrian, you've mentioned that you went stale twice, one at McLaren and then latterly at Red Bull. What are the signs of becoming stale? You start as if you're feeling as if you're going through the motions, as if you're doing an automatic, I think, is probably the best way of putting it. You don't have those sorts of wake up in the middle of the night, which can be a pain in the backside, but wake up in the middle of the night with a fresh ping of an idea or whatever.

23:10You're just not feeling stimulated. I think that's probably the easiest way of putting it. So on the RB17, the track car, I was waking up with ideas, but I was starting to do less so on the Formula One car and that just felt wrong to me. I knew it was wrong. But your car was totally dominant though. Well, the 21 car, sorry, the 22 car was the car that set that process. So in 2021, it was a very busy year for me and self-induced because we had the championship battle with Mercedes that year with the 16B I started I started sketching over the Christmas break a track car track only car which was initially codenamed ETA but is now the RB17 and we had the research and design to do for this big regulation change 22 and then in a further self induced I had a stupid cycling accident in August and was out of action for a period.

24:25But that was a very stimulating year. Trying to get that balance of going after the 21 championship in what was a really intense and at times quantum pleasant championship in terms of the off track activity.

24:47And doing the research for the 22 car. and trying to get that research right because I found a few times, it was the same for the 2009 car, if you can manage to read the regulations well and get your research ideas in a line so that you come up with a good solution for the overall package of the car for that first season, then you're quite well set for that rule set. If you start off on the back foot because you've read it wrong, Mercedes, for instance, have suffered from that, then it takes quite a lot of catch-up. You can catch up, but it takes time and you make your life harder for yourself.

25:37So trying to get that, trying to make the right decisions in 21 was quite key. So we've got a model, actually, of the RB19. Right, there you go. Would you mind just talking us through that car? How you came to some of the decisions and the parts of this car that you're most proud of? So RB18, the 22 car, was very much the car that set the subsequent evolutions of the 19 and then this year's car, the 20, in process. So they're very relatively conservative evolutions, last year's car in particular, of this original 18 concept. And how do the other teams who are spending many millions of pounds on hiring the very best engineers and mines to try and compete with someone like you, how do they not see the things that you see on that car, do you think?

26:35How have they not yet spotted what you do? A whole variety of reasons. I think, first of all, it's trying to put a bit of creativity and lateral thinking into the whole how you go about it, how you go about the research, but also not just blindly believing the tools. Simulations, by definition, aren't the real thing. They have limitations and they have inaccuracies, which quite sometimes you're just not aware of. And even the data, when you look at the track data, sometimes it's difficult to pick things out that the drivers are describing but can be extremely difficult to see them in the data.

27:25But there's something to say they're not there. You touched on something that reminds me of a previous guest we had, was Professor Brian Cox, the astrophysicist, who spoke about the healthiest cultures are where people celebrate being wrong because they understand we don't have all the answers. And I'm interested in how do you create a culture where you do have the humility to accept we don't have all the answers, the data doesn't provide us with everything? Well, that's a very good question. It's one of the cultural changes that needed to make when I first started at Red Bull. Red Bull, as I mentioned, was the ashes of Jaguar.

28:09The day I joined, we went out for lunch with the key engineering team and one of them said to me, later in, we're very delighted to have you here, but please be aware that we, I think he's probably even called at Jaguar still, he might as well have done. We at Jaguar have our way of doing things and we expect you to fit in. I don't actually have a problem with that. I'm happy to fit in. And what the underlying implication, I thought, was very strange, that I'd been lucky enough to have won quite a few championships with Williams and McLaren by then. And you'd think he would have been curious as to pick my brains and what I could bring and what my experiences were.

28:53There's none of that. It's we know what we're doing and we expect you to fit in. It's a very strange mentality, and that was actually one of the most difficult things. It took us a year to kind of change that culture. And what was the most effective method you found to change it? I felt that there were a few bad eggs in the team. Probably three or four, five, not many, out of an engineering workforce over those days, probably 150 or so. And I just had the impression that they were saying yes to my face and running around and saying no to my back and getting various people to push in the opposite direction.

29:38But kind of firing somebody or showing them their P45 if you got it wrong is quite a big responsibility. So I didn't want to get it wrong. So I actually was a very good friend, family friend, that I'd known for a long time. she worked in the travel and hotel industry but was just about just kind of was losing her job and falling out of love with it so I said okay would you like to come and work at Red Bull as a consultant three days a week and we won't admit we know each other you just go underground try to understand the business as a sort of undercover HR super consultant if you like and then come back and see what you find and what you think.

30:30Because I just felt as hitting this brick wall. And so she did exactly that. And after a month or two, she came back and it was actually the same four or five people I thought. And so we unfortunately had to have a bit of a knife of the long knives and get rid of those people. But I tell you what, the culture changed overnight from that. that I think they had then held other people back quite a lot and the people who didn't know, who were following them out of loyalty rather than anything else, thought, okay, well, they've gone, so I'll now show loyalty to the new bunch, to Adrian and Gove. Would you also share with us the challenge that success brings?

31:16Because I think that people think, well, creating a fast Formula One team means suddenly harmony and joy, but actually that period was where particularly Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber had some clashes on track, that famous multi-21 where Seb was asked to swap with Mark and he didn't do it. I mean, you and I were recently at a Red Bull event and the emotion still is high, isn't it, from the people who were involved in the race team in that period and we're talking 10 years ago. So what would you share with us that you all learned in Red Bull at that time about the challenges that success can also bring?

31:52Human and Sure as a team, I think the first thing about motor racing is that it's always pressure. Whether you're at the back or at the front, it's always pressure. If you're at the front, you're under pressure to stay there. If you're at the back, you're obviously under pressure to try and get to the front. And it's really about how you learn to live with that and handle it and kind of get everybody feeling as if you are... avoid being complacent if you're at the front, which is easy to creep in. And if you're not at the front, that belief that we can get to the front, we just need to be very calm and work through and try and understand our problems and what we need to do to get there.

32:35It always seemed to me that kind of, if my racing was going badly, my home life would go badly. If my home life was going badly, my racing life would go badly, or my professional life. When that happened again in 2010, and towards through the latter part of 2009 and into 2010, where my second marriage fell apart, that time I was able to channel that and make work my escape, make it my kind of sanctuary. Right. so that now if I wanted to escape all the shit, excuse my French, that was going around in my head from my home life, my escape was to turn and face my drawing board and start drawing. And I've developed this thing, I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, a lot of people notice it, that I do have complete blinker tunnel vision.

33:37A lot of people then make them feel as if I'm very rude because I'll walk through the paddock and I just don't see left and right because I'm thinking about something and I'm walking that way. So people think I've walked straight past them and blanked them. I honestly haven't. I just don't see them. And what are you thinking about in those moments? Car-specific things? Yeah, normally, particularly at racetrack, it would be car-specific. So I'm quite compartmentalised in my brain. I don't know if it's an assess or a handicap, but I can kind of learn to kind of be focused on one thing at a time.

34:19As soon as I stop focusing on that, then I'll look at other things. The only thing I would say about that, though, is the brain's an amazing thing. So I'll be stuck on a problem at work and can't find a solution to it. and then the evening will come and I'll walk away and it might even be a problem that I didn't feel fully happy about from the week before. The subconscious must just be ticking away because then suddenly standing in the shower or in the middle of the night or whatever, a solution will pop up. And you think, yeah, that's what I'll do in the morning. So do you have your sketch pad and your pencils at the racetrack as well as at the factory?

35:01Oh, yeah, absolutely. So is there a time where something's gone on with the car and you've gone back to the motorhome to try and sketch out a solution to the problem? Yes, for sure, many times. I think, as I say, solutions, ideas, creativity, whatever you want to call it, it can come from many sources in many random ways. And I suppose I do find that sometimes if I try to force it, I'm actually kind of get the equivalent of writer's block. At that point it's best to pencils down, walk away, do something different come back to it later. You've been described as the man who can see air. I'm sure you've heard that mentioned many times.

35:50Do you see it like that? No, of course I can't see air. I mean it's a nice romantic image but no, unfortunately I can't. I think... What do you see? I like to try to visualise and understand. And that perhaps comes back from being of that older generation where before CFD kicked in, where you had to... And before CAD, so computer-aided drafting, kicked in, where everything was manual, if you like. You worked on a drawing board. you worked in a wind tunnel with a wall tuft. Those are your tools. And so you had to try to understand and to visualise. And that's what I still try to do. I'm lucky enough to have, I think I've come from genetically a good artistic background on both sides of the family.

36:52So I think that helps me. And after all, engineering, particularly design engineering, performance engineering, which has mentioned my passion. It's a combination of science and art. Which all leads to a car that looks like this. So let's do this then. Let's get you to talk us through some of the design elements of the RB19 and how they came about, really. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favourite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS. I made the switch because I was tired of those ridiculous bills and sneaky charges from my old provider.

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39:25So the first thing was we wanted to position the driver quite rearwards in the wheelbase for aerodynamics in particular and to an extent weight distribution, but mainly aerodynamics that I wanted to get what's called the AA, which is the front of the chassis, rearwards, because that would free up the space, it would make the nose smaller and allow us to create a very V-shaped nose, which I've always found useful to have a V-shaped nose. So that was the philosophy behind that because I wanted to try to, this big front wing to get it to work across the span, which meant minimising the nose. And that straight away led to a few key things by positioning the driver relatively rearwards, you then needed, because we have a maximum wheelbase, the distance between front wheel and rear wheel, then if you move the driver back, you've got to move the engine back in reality, which means you then got to have quite a short gearbox.

40:37So then it was a packaging exercise around the rear of how you do this short gearbox. and that led to two things on the suspension at the front because the chassis is now quite rearwards. It made, if you have a so-called push rod, which is where the arms that control the vertical suspension are like that, then they're very flat because the chassis is quite low. So the alternative is to go to a pull rod, which is what we went to at the front. Simple. But that was one of the reasons for the pull rod. the other was to free up space around the front brake nut, which I thought was probably going to be quite important.

41:18So that was the front of the car. The rear of the car, then with this short gearbox,

41:28wanted the bodywork beside the gearbox to be quite narrow. and that was proving very difficult to package with a pull rod which has been the traditional solution that we'd introduced in 2009 for the 2009 regulations. So we went back to a push rod which was pre-2009 if you like to allow the inboard suspension to be packaged ahead of the gear cluster rather than beside it, which was all we could manage to do with the pull rod. So those are sort of two key fundamental decisions, both mainly aerodynamically driven. And then on the underside of the car, we wanted to maximise the diffuser space, so that meant trying to make the gearbox as small as we possibly could physically, which led to a lot of complaints from the gearbox department because then when you make the gearbox, you wrap the gearbox casing around the gears themselves very tightly, then you have problems controlling the oil because you haven't got a sump effectively.

42:43So it's quite a lot of work with the gearbox guys and on the dyno and so forth, getting this very minimal shape to work. The kind of very high underside to the radiator intake to create this G line, which is actually... The G line is when I was drawing a car quite some years ago. I tend to label it the lines as I draw them on the drawing board. A is the top corner of the chassis. C is the top corner of the side pod. B is the bottom corner of the chassis. And I work my way through the alphabet. And the line from the front of the chassis to the back, along the base of this iPod just above the floor is G.

43:35That's where I got to. So it's internally always now been known as the G line. I think it might have even crept through 4x1, I'm not sure. Like most of your little inventions. I wanted the G line to be used as much as possible to pressurise because that pressurising under here, because we didn't really have proper barge boards like the old regulations. The best way to try to push the front wheel wake outboard, which is what you're always trying to do, was to raise the front of the side pod and quite simply pressurise. So pressurise the flow in this area to push the flow, the wake of the front wheels outboard.

44:16So I guess those, I mean, there are lots of other bits and pieces, but those were the very key philosophical approaches that we put into the design of the 2022 car. So from then, then it's been evolutionary. And you would then present that as an idea in your head and then it's up to the rest of the team to test it effectively? it's yes so I then kind of having come up with concepts front suspension rear suspension the underside of the gearbox general what we're trying to do the diffuser and then starting to work with the guys on this sort of sideboard contact shape then then I I work in two ways one is just walking around all the individual screens and talking to the individual aerodynamicists or mechanical designers, whichever it is, depending on which bit we're looking at, the details of the front suspension or the aerodynamics or whatever.

45:28Just walking around, talking to them, discussing, batting ideas around. And then they will, as a result of those conversations, combined with their own ideas, most importantly, kind of go off and develop. and then at the same time I will spend time on my own, if you like, at the drawing board trying to come up with ideas and suggestions. Of course, nowadays, I mean, the drawing board is clearly a dinosaur of a thing. Why do you still use it? For me, it's a language. So I grew up on the age where I grew up on the drawing board. CAD systems didn't really start to come in properly until the early 90s and didn't really, I would say, reach maturity until certainly the mid-90s.

46:24So I grew up on a drawing board. It's my first language. If I was of a younger generation, I wouldn't have been on a CAD. I don't think there's an underlying advantage or disadvantage to one or the other. I think actually now the CAD is the stronger because if I go back even 10 years, I've watched the guys on the CAD, they would take such a long time constructing their drawing that they would be reluctant to change it because it took them too long to change. Whereas I'm more than happy to get the rubber out and I'd probably... The lines I end up with, probably 50 % of them at least have been rubbed out at some point.

47:11because I keep changing it until I'm happy with it. Whereas now with what's called parametrics, these guys can put a few dots and crosses down, create their history file, and then they can change it quite quickly and easily. So I'm starting to feel slightly disadvantaged on the drawing board, but I'm afraid I'm a bit too old to change now. That drawing board's not getting put away any time soon. Is anyone else in your position in F1 using a drawing board as the primary? Not to my knowledge. Maybe you're O 'Reilly Byrne. I'd think it'd probably be the only other one, being a even slightly older generation than me.

47:48So interesting. Look, thanks for talking us through the way you work and how you work. I want to talk about the drama, if you like, of Formula 1. You mentioned earlier 2021 was a challenge because of all of the things that were going on off the track. How do you personally deal with F1 when it does get nasty, as it did that season? It does take some of the pleasure out of it. That 21 championship was particularly dirty off the track. Some of it to do with body work and what we felt Mercedes were up to, and then an apparent lack of willingness from the FIA to properly investigate that was frustrating.

48:33There was the sort of silverstone accident between Lewis and Max, which I must admit, at the time, I was absolutely incandescent with Lewis because I felt it was, he did it, it was a deliberate professional foul. I think now with the benefit of hindsight and time, then I think there'd been banging wheels all the way around the lap up to that corner. Lewis went for an opportunity which he thought was there misjudged it and what happened happened we were lucky that Max didn't get badly hurt in that accident so I understand how it happened now perhaps better I was probably a bit harsh I was too harsh on Lewis at the time and that's perhaps one of the things of Formula 1 you get sucked into to everybody else being the enemy very easily.

49:32I remember when Ayrton, who had been kind of a bit of a nemesis, then went from McLaren and joined us at Red Bull.

49:49It's almost kind of had to learn quickly to call him Ayrton, not Senna. but that dropped in a moment because when he first came around the factory I was Frank and Patrick said look please show him around and his curiosity and natural engagement and charismas you couldn't as soon as you met and chatted with the guy you couldn't dislike him really yeah and what about as a driver as a driver I mean he could be ruthless obviously he I think if you watch that it was a little bit before my time properly in Formula 1 the battle between Alan and Ayrton and the shenanigans that went on there then you can debate it.

50:42I'm sure both drivers in their own minds felt fully justified in what they did and I guess that's what happens in Formula 1 Are you okay to talk about the crash in 94 with Edding 30 years ago? Yeah, I mean, it's... I've been responsible for the design of a car by then for a few years. First in IndyCar. The first car I was properly responsible for was the 85 March IndyCar. And then from then on, continuously, another IndyCar and then Formula One cars. stupid as it sounds I'd never ever thought or questioned if somebody gets badly hurt or worse in a car that I've been overall responsible with for how am I going to feel and when it happened it was just I mean I can the biggest memory of that is the bloody klaxons when all the noise all the spectators made with all these images of Ayrton sitting upright in the car, hoping desperately he's okay.

51:59What a waste. I mean, I think that was the biggest, biggest, biggest single emotion. What a waste of such an amazing person for such a stupid accident and such an unlucky accident. And as much as if it hadn't been for the wishbone leg, then he would have been absolutely unhurt. But of course in the aftermath he then got the initial emotion of do I want to continue working in motor racing. How close were you to stopping? Yeah, I definitely thought about just stopping. And then what happened? Was it the steering column snapped? Did we completely mess up the design and field a car that was unsafe or did something else happen?

52:47And at the same time, along with Patrick, we were both on charge for manslaughter, which lasted for about ten years, which was a pressure, but it wasn't the key thing for me. The key thing was what part did I personally play in what happened? And I don't think we'll ever know with absolute 100 % confidence what happened. None of the data points to the steering column being a problem. What the data does show is that the car snapped sideways in a corner that should have been flat.

53:35and he got through the first lap flat so why on earth didn't he get through the second lap flat he did have a big moment on the first lap but caught it but the second lap's high pressure should have been up and he should have been fine so I don't know, you can speculate it was a slow puncture the right rear tyre was destroyed so you never know what I do know is the car is aerodynamically unstable which is definitely down to me I'd messed up on the aerodynamics of the car the diffuser was stalling at very low ride height and I think having lost the first three races was absolutely determined to carry the car and win that race so that's the responsibility I have to live with and of course then you go forwards and there have been other times where the car's going round and you know you're taking a bit of a risk but you're trying to weigh up in your own mind that risk reward probably the worst one actually came away most emotional from after Limla was Spa which year was it?

54:53I think it was either 10 or 12, where we were in a tight championship battle with Fernando. The tyres in qualifying had started to... When Brelli looked at them after qualifying, they had structural problems. They'd been compromised. The carcasses starting to break down. and the answer, according to Pirelli initially, was you're running too much camber, you need to reduce the camber. To reduce the camber, we would have had taken the cars out of Park Fermi so both drivers, Mark and Seb, would have been at the back of the grid. So, you know, we'd be handling Fernando an absolute gift. So then it was, OK, what else can we do?

55:43and Pirelli came back and said, well, this is what's called a standing move, which is when the sidewall flexes too much and fatigues and eventually fails. So if you raise the tyre pressure significantly, then you've got a much better chance of surviving with these damaged tyres. So there's, okay, right, we'll start the race, we'll bump the tyre, jack the tyre pressures right up, we'll start the race and we'll pit on lap eight or something, I can't remember exactly, or pit early, and hope that then we can go on to win the race from there. And so we picked, I can't remember which driver we pitted first, but we pitted Mark and then Seb, I think it was that way around, because Mark's tyres are in a slightly worse shape than Seb's, on lap eight and lap nine.

56:33Got away with it and they went on to finish one too. Now, that I have to say, because Spa is not an accident where you're at track where, any track, but particularly Spa, is one of those ones where if you had a tyre failure at very high speed, it could be a really nasty accident. So that was... What were your emotions on the pit wall then at the beginning of that race? Just super tense, super stressed. Am I being irresponsible here? Am I putting on due risks on one or both drivers? Quite a few within the team said, no we shouldn't be doing this if you start from the pit lane Mark and Seb said of course but you expect them to So you gave them full information so they knew exactly Yes they knew exactly but it's not fair in a way because of their competitive nature they're always going to say yeah we'll take the risk we're sniffing a world championship here So how did you decide we're going to go for this?

57:33No huge science to be perfectly honest all the data from Pirelli. They ran some tests overnight. Pirelli are brilliant on that, I have to say. They sometimes get knocked, but on that, they are absolutely brilliant. They did some tests overnight that suggested that raising the pressures significantly would mean that if it was a new tyre, it wouldn't be damaged with the Canberra angle we're running. What they weren't able to say is with our damaged tyres, whether they would continue to degrade or whether they would last those eight or ten laps. So it's kind of, yeah, it was a deep breath and off we go.

58:14It was a really hard one. I was definitely in tears at the end of that race. Were you in tears and not because of the win? No, no, no, just the emotional relief of taking a risk and going away with it. And you've mentioned the risk-reward strategy that you apply. Has that changed over the years?

58:40I'd like to say I've gotten sure I'm more risk-adverse, but probably not. Is the reality I'm too stupid for that? The thing is that you have to become comfortable. People that don't know Formula 1 won't understand this. You're asking people to drive a prototype car that's never really been driven in anger as fast as they can around a track alongside 19 other people doing the same thing. So do you ever become comfortable with that? I think it's always in the back of your mind. I mean, you know, the FIA have criticised them in some ways, but they've done a super job with enhancing the safety regulations.

59:18Starting with the work of the late great Sid Watkins, kind of with all his work and introducing side impact protection, front impact protection, the side headrests, lift-out seats, etc. Sid really raised the game and changed it from being a sport which in the 90s was... It's getting better but still dangerous. 94 being the standout year around that sort of Monaco in the Monaco times being horrendous to a sport which is still not 100 % safe but the statistics are so markedly better than they used to be. Listen, I was hosting the race when Mark Webber went upside down in Valencia and I was there in Silverstone when Sebastian had that huge accident as you've already mentioned.

1:00:12What are those moments like for you watching on? I mean, they're horrible. They really are. Because, I mean, I think Max's one at Silverstone is the last one where we've thought, is he okay? Is he badly hurt in there? And then when he did come on the radio because he was so badly winded, he was just grunting, and you don't know what that means. He was very sore. He had quite a nasty concussion. who was very sore for a week after, but he was okay. So those sorts of accidents still can happen and do happen. The one at Spa in the Formula 2 race.

1:00:57Antoine Huber. Antoine, yeah, was horrific. It's never going to be 100 % safe. It takes a unique sort of person to get behind the wheel of a Formula 1 car. when you look back over your career, which drivers have you most enjoyed working with? I think it would be very unfair to put them in order, but in roughly time chronology, if you like, as opposed to ranking, then Bobby Rahal first and foremost, because I went over to IndyCar. I'd done one year of race engineering in Formula 2, was John Isikoso. He was Superman. Very patient with me. Why he accepted me as his race engineer, I've got absolutely no idea, but he did.

1:01:47Because I didn't know what I was doing. Formula One, I think Nigel Mansell was very misunderstood, but he was, I got on so well with Nigel. In what way was he misunderstood? I think a lot of people sort of did see the whinging Brummie sort of caricature of him. And in truth, I think I know Nigel well enough that hopefully he won't be insulted if he listens to this podcast and say there could occasionally be elements of truth to that. But underneath, what a guy. I mean, he was, first of all, his presence in a car. You could have painted his helmet white and the car white. You'd know who was driving that car.

1:02:33I just had that sort of ability to throw a car around that not many drivers had. And just tremendous self-confidence and a pleasure to work with. Damon, very different character. But again, we formed a very close working relationship and a very close friendship as well. Damon's still a very close friend, as is Mark Webber. Mark's a great guy. Well, you know. Yeah, he's been on the show. Yeah. DC, of course, another great man and a big influence on my life.

1:03:15Sebastian, he rang up the other day, he was travelling through Norway with his motorhome. I keep hearing rumours of Sebastian Vettel coming back to Formula 1, but I don't... No, I can't see that. No, he won't. He's enjoying his life. he's moved on and he's doing different things and fair play to him. What made Sebastian Vettel so good? I think he was, not I ever worked with Michael, but as I understand Michael, then he was very, very methodical. He would spend ages in debriefs. He would spend ages in the evening looking through all the data, trying to understand it, trying to understand strengths and weaknesses where he could improve himself.

1:04:05Just fully involved. Total opposite to Mika, which of course is the other guy that was great. And Mika and Sebastian, I think probably therefore Mika and Michael, I suspect, couldn't be two more opposite people. Mika was, once you learnt to translate what he was saying, because he did need to kind of create your own dictionary or translating manual or whatever because he would say things in a way that you had to prod and push and translate. He would say very little but take notice of what he did say, act on that. He would have total trust, come back and off he went. He didn't really think about racing once he's out of the car And I think that meant that, you know, with Sebastian, say, Fernando, even in that championship battle where we had Sebastian and Fernando and even Mark that first year going down to the wire, then all of them started to crack a little bit towards the end.

1:05:16They're starting to show a little bit of fragility from the pressure. the Finns, they just... Maximum attack, I get in, I drive, I get out. It's very, very refreshing to work with. Could be frustrating, but very refreshing. Max Verstappen, does he ever show signs of cracking? I've not seen it, I don't think, from where I've been watching. I think a little bit, perhaps, in his Championship Room 21, where the intensity, particularly after Silverstone, on track between Lewis and Max became so intense. I think Max had very strong feelings on that Silverstone accident. And, of course, he'd been a clear championship leader going into Silverstone.

1:06:12We then, him out of the race, and then more or less out of the race in Hungary when he got hit by Valtteri, not intentional at all, but still got hit and pretty much hardly scored any points. So gone from easy championship leaders to now feeling a bit more pressure. And Mercedes managed to find quite a lot more pace out of their car towards the end of the season. So it's always easier for the hunter than the hunted. And Max was starting, I think, to just feel a little bit of pressure from the hunted. Hence that, you know, he was, in reality, was probably lucky not to get a penalty from his driving in Brazil.

1:06:56The Abu Dhabi, Abu Dhabi? No, it wasn't Abu Dhabi, sorry, the one before. Saudi, where they had a bit of a ding-dong. That was a little bit more, I think that was not clear, but Max was probably a bit out of order in Brazil in truth. So I think he's feeling it a bit. And indeed, it's the usual thing when Cecho starts. If the teammate that they've been beating suddenly starts to get closer, it's not that suddenly the teammate's got better, it's that the guy... It's the same with Fernando and Felipe Mata towards the end of 2010. Suddenly they get closer because the lead driver's feeling the pressure.

1:07:40What do you do with the lead driver in that position? Would you spend time with Max? Would you take it upon yourself to talk to him and see how he's doing? A little bit, but I think Max is his own man. He's incredibly mature and rounded and philosophical. I think from the outside, I'm not sure people fully appreciate and understand Max, just like they didn't with Sebastian. First of all, there's this sort of demonisation that both of them have suffered at times, which I think is very unfair. And maybe that's also a little bit of the British media, if I'm honest. Sky have a huge influence around the world.

1:08:25Their viewing figures, or their viewing is truly international. But their coverage is quite nationalistic, dare I say. And that can have an influence. but there is that trend to sort of either put people on a pedestal or knock them down. It's black or white, heaven or hell. Exactly. There's no nuance. So for people who, based on what they've seen, have an opinion of Max Verstappen that you wouldn't agree with, what would you like to tell those people that they might have wrong about Max? I think that he's very intelligent. and he's got an incredible ability to... It almost feels as if he can drive the car and automatically he doesn't, of course, but he can drive the car and has so much processing power left over that he can then think a lot about how he's driving the car, how he's looking after the tyres, what he might need to do on the settings or if he's not sure, ask GP on the radio what he should be doing, but highlighting the problems.

1:09:32Reading the race, it still fascinates me. Fernando's another one that can do that, that seemed to be able to read the race. But they haven't got all the stuff in front of them. How do they do that? I don't know. I mean, I know you can see a lot in the diamond vision and they do that. It's amazing how the drivers can see the diamond vision and look up and see who's there. While they're driving a Grand Prix, they're looking at the big screens that are up for the fans in the grandstands, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. and then seeing the splits and the times and what's going on. And is that common or is that a rare skill?

1:10:05I think it's rare and it's only the very top guys that can do it. I remember David Coulthard actually saying to me the difference between him and Michael Schumacher when they were racing was what he called spare capacity. He said when he was at his full tilt in a Formula One car, that took everything out of him. Whereas Michael, Sebastian Vettel, Max Verstappen, Lewis Hamilton, Fernando Alonso, the true greats, they have a bit left over, wouldn't you say? They do. They have a huge amount left over. They have huge mental reserve left over. I won't name drivers, it would be unfair, but you can fairly easily see it if you watch a Formula One race and you know a bit about it.

1:10:42You can see the ones that haven't got much capacity left over and they're the ones that typically also get in swells and accidents and tangles and so on and so forth because they've just got nothing left. They can drive a car and they can do a qualifying lap if it'd be gobsmacked if any of those guys could win a championship. Can I ask how you feel Max internally dealt with what happened at the end of the 2021 season? Because it still feels to me like Red Bull are blamed for something that was totally not in your control. You know, this was an FIA race director decision that kind of reflects badly on Red Bull in an unfair way, you know?

1:11:21I think, honestly, Max is so... He has such a self-assured... So self-assured. And this is in a positive way. It's not in a negative way. You know, there's arrogance and there's self-assured. He's not arrogant, but he is very self-assured and self-confident. And he's a deep thinker, but he doesn't let things like that... I don't think they don't really get to him. and he's able to shut that off and just get on with his job and get on with his task and do what he loves doing, which is driving racing cars. Did it get to you? No. No, it didn't. I mean, no. I find it actually, I think it got to Mercedes.

1:12:07And instead of saying, OK, well, accepting it and moving on, it started to affect their psyche which is an interesting one. That's from the outside and I might be completely wrong. In what way? It just couldn't let it go. Psychologically they couldn't let it go. And you have to be... You know, you'll have it... You have a bad race. You perhaps should have won and the bloody thing broke down or the last lap or whatever. and I always have a personal rule, if you like, that I will be horrible to be around in the airport on that Sunday evening. But come Monday morning, I've got to wake up and be back on it.

1:12:58I can't go back into the factory all miserable and downbeat. Part of my position, I suppose, is to help to try to hopefully motivate everybody, not just saying, oh, it's so unfair, and we were robbed and all that. It doesn't help, does it? So Lewis Hamilton, two months ago, won his first race since that last race of 2021. Wow. And afterwards, he was emotional, wasn't he? And he sort of spoke about the fact that he'd been to a really dark place after that. And it really, I think, has taken him three years to recover from that. and you can relate and understand that. You can understand it and it's obviously a very difficult thing to...

1:13:44It's one thing saying, right, I'm going to just put it behind me. It's another thing actually achieving it. But at some point you have to move on. What's the best tip you could share with our viewers in terms of being able to put the past behind and move on from a setback? I think it's trying to develop self-discipline to do that. to kind of live in the now, plan for the future, and don't kind of dwell on the past too much. It's easier said than done, of course, but you can do it with practice. How much time do you spend reflecting? Almost none. Why is that? I suppose because I'm interested in the next thing, really.

1:14:28You once wrote, you might say I'm lacking sentimentality, but I prefer to think of it as taking a clear-eyed view of the future. Yeah, I think that's right. It's great when people come up and say I've won so many races and championships and whatever. And I suppose the book, to an extent, How to Build a Car, was quite a cathartic trip back, which I'd never really done until I wrote that book. But generally speaking, I'm not looking back. I'm looking forwards. I don't know why that is. I suppose it's just the curiosity aspect of, okay, what's next? So looking forward, what do you still feel you have to achieve in Formula One?

1:15:14I kind of feel as if I've been lucky enough to have some good stats and manage to prove myself or have a positive influence at three teams now, and four teams if I can include Leighton House. so I don't feel as if I really have to prove anything anymore I just want to do it for myself and enjoy it and hopefully if I enjoy it the guys I will be working with will enjoy it as well Finally, one bit of reflection before we move on to our quickfire questions you've designed cars that have won 13 drivers titles 12 constructors titles no one in the history of the sport has designed more successful cars than you.

1:16:02What would a teenage Adrian make of that? Gobsmacked. Sorry, that's probably not very good English. It's an honest answer. He'd be gobsmacked, wouldn't he? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, crikey. My dream was always to be a designer. I didn't know the word engineer, I don't think, when I was in my kind of teens and so forth. and I lost my way a little bit when I kind of got chucked out of school at 16 and then got into bikes and girls and stuff. But it came back in as much as I knew I needed to get to university and if I wanted to fulfil my motor racing dream, I needed to get to university, I needed a degree.

1:16:48And then kind of I remember my struggle like mad to get in, didn't get my first job and I got to the end of the first week I just couldn't believe my luck I was hired as junior aerodynamicist which turned out to also be senior aerodynamicist the only aerodynamicist I had no idea what I was doing got to the end of the first month sorry, the end of the first month didn't feel as if I was contributing anything and I got paid for it I couldn't wow wow, I got paid and I've got no idea what I'm doing here. So I've always felt tremendously lucky to be here. And I feel I try to remain humble because of that, because I do feel lucky.

1:17:41Can I ask you a final question? Because it refers to a comment you made at the start about deciding for your next role, that you didn't want it to become all-consuming. and in this brilliant interview that you've given us, Adrian, you've spoken about the cost at a personal level in terms of your marriages and the impact of your profession and your personal life. How have you learned to be able to separate the two now so that you can do a good job without it having the impact on you as a person? I think there's two aspects to that. One is if work's going badly, trying not to bring it home. which is not easy because you had a bad day at work.

1:18:28If things have gone badly, you don't understand why perhaps. Or if it's just an argument with somebody, that's easier. But if you don't understand, then you're feeling stupid. Sometimes I feel so stupid, I can't understand something. One of the things that often goes in my brain is I wish I was a bit cleverer because if you can't understand something, it's frustrating. So trying not to carry that frustration home and then take it out on your loved ones and your family is, I think, one key aspect. I'm certainly not there, but Amanda will definitely back that up, unfortunately. And then the other aspect, of course, is the time management.

1:19:16and the time management's actually every bit as difficult, if not more difficult, because it can be an all-consuming job if you let it. And so I've always tried to... I try to be very efficient with my time, but in striving to be efficient, that can also mean it makes it very difficult... It can make it very difficult for me to relax because I'm trying to be so efficient and time to be so conscious of managing my time, that then if I'm doing nothing, I feel I should be doing something. I feel a bit guilty. So it's trying to control all those sorts of emotions, really. Very good, right. Are you ready for some quick-fire questions?

1:20:00I'll give it my shot. I'm not normally very good at these. So first of all, the three non-negotiable behaviours that are most important to you. I think trying to be true to yourself is the first and most important one. trying to be objective with one's own strengths and weaknesses, which isn't easy. And I see that all the time where people in the workforce, they might be very good at one area, but they don't recognise that. They want to be doing something different and they go and do that and then they're not very good at this and they get very frustrated and unhappy. So I think being comfortable with what you feel is your strength and then working to that.

1:20:52I think trying to remain calm under pressure and measured and not spark up my father could have a bit of a temper on him at times. and I've probably inherited that to an extent and trying to make sure that I don't, if I say something, I've kind of thought about it, it's not just my new joke. Try to always be open and honest with people. I think that's kind of both professionally at the workplace and also privately. What's your biggest strength and your greatest weakness? I would say my biggest strength is subjective, isn't it? Whether other people say this of me or not, I've got no idea. But if I try to look at that, I would say humility.

1:21:55Trying to, you know, it would be very easy for this to kind of go to my head, I suppose, and think I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread, which I definitely don't think that. And you see that kind of, with Formula One then, tends to attract a lot of people from music and film. And the observation I would have is that the people you then meet from those two industries invariably divide in two. It's either completely gone to their head, and they're actually not very nice to talk to, or they could be sitting in the pub having a chat with a pint of beer in a packet of Chris and he'd be having a great time.

1:22:42And I try to remain the packet of Chris in the pint of beer. Weakness. Still spark up occasionally. I think just trying to still feel as if I can balance things better probably. What advice would you give to a teenage Adrian just starting out on his journey in life? Enjoy it. It has to be enjoyed. I don't think there's any point in going back and saying, I could have done this differently or I could have done that differently because that requires a crystal ball. But I think one of the things I do regress about motor racing is it probably makes you a bit hard because of the knocks and bumps you inevitably have along the way.

1:23:33You end up, you have to be resilient, which I suppose is a strength that perhaps I should have mentioned. Maybe that would have been the better third one. You have to be resilient. You have to be able to bounce back because you will get knocked down many times. The penalty of those, all those knockdowns, and what you see around you and then losses, Ayrton being the most personal, the biggest one, of course, then they do toughen you up, they make you hard. And so some of that sort of naive teenage outlook on life that I had where, you know, it's a bit post-flower power, but you just want to do good to the planet and you want to be helping people and so forth.

1:24:28it's easy to end up just becoming a bit too hard, is the only way I can describe it. You kind of... Mandy, my wife, she often, you know, if somebody passes that we've known, I'll be upset, of course, but an hour later I've moved on to the next thing she's. and she feels I'm very kind of callous in that respect and she's probably right but I guess that's and she observes it as most racing people I think that is one of the things it does unfortunately do to you The final question then, Adrian, is what is your one golden rule to live in a high performance life? Formula One is, if you like, as a high performance life which it is, it's a busy life, it's a very busy life it's easy to lose balance of trying to be focused on how to deliver more forms to the car versus all the other aspects of life that we all know.

1:25:44So it's trying to balance our toes the most important thing. Well, enjoy every minute of it. Thank you. Thank you, Jake. Thank you so much for your time. That was fascinating.

1:25:57Damien. Jake. I loved the theme there of being brave and taking a leap. And I know in some ways you can say, well, it's not a leap, is it? The guys earned a lot of money, had a very successful career. It's not brave to go and join the new Formula One team. But I would disagree with that because I think that at the age that he is, at the team he was at, with the salary that he was earning, the success that he was enjoying, many, many people would have just stuck with the status quo, carried on picking up the paycheck. But as he said to us, it felt almost disingenuous. He would have felt like a fraud.

1:26:28And I think that is a really interesting insight to him as a man. Yeah, definitely. I think, in fact, I actually think his testimony is even more powerful for the reason that you've just mentioned, that he doesn't need to do this. He's got a stellar reputation. He's got, by his own admission, a lot of money in the bank. And yet that will to chase after the thing that intrigues him, that fascinates him. He's willing to get out of his comfort zone, challenge the idea that he never thought he'd still be working at 60 or 65 as he is now. I think it actually tells you how powerful it is to have this sense of purpose, this thing that fascinates you and gives you a spark.

1:27:07I also think that he secretly, and maybe not so secretly because he kind of alluded to it, he loves the idea of delivering glory to a team that isn't tasting glory at the moment and you know with the new regulation changes in 2026 the reason why basically every team in the whole paddock or pit lane has been after him is because he is about as close as you can get to guaranteeing yourself a fast car as it gets in formula one and and so i suppose like i i love the fact that he he still feels some unfinished business i mean i fear that he'll still feel when he's 70, 71, he still has to prove himself.

1:27:45Like, I don't know how he ever walks away from this sport. If you can't do it at 65, why can you do it at 70 or 71? But I love the fact that the fire burns bright because we disregard the older generation, but think what he knows. Oh, yeah, definitely. And the powerful thing for me was that intersection between the science and the art, as he said himself, that actually you can look at the data, you can go and look at the figures, but actually then talking to the drivers and finding out something, the feedback that they're giving you and to try and work out what the numbers tell us there. I think that's a guy really in his sweet spot and I think that's why he's been tempted to come back into the world of it.

1:28:28I think there's a lesson there for all of us about finding your sweet spot and going dance in that space. I also love the fact that he attaches a lot of emotion to the sport that he loves. When talking about Ayrton Senna, you know, we could see it in the room. Maybe it came across for people listening, I don't know. But, you know, he was emotional. He was tearing up talking about that. But then when talking about, you know, taking that risk at Spa with cars that might crash at any time or the fact that people misjudged Sebastian Vettel and Max Verstappen, like he has a deep-seated love of the human beings, I think, in Formula One.

1:29:02And I think sometimes in engineering sports, you miss a bit of that. But he really has it. Yeah, absolutely. I think it was really tangible when he spoke about Senna. And, you know, even having that manslaughter charge hanging over him for 10 years, the consequences of making a mistake in his world are literally life and death, as he experienced. And I think to have that appreciation of the human beings that are on the edge of that comfort zone, that ability to where we can push ourselves, makes him special and unique. So it was great. Yeah, well, you've been in that world for a long time. I mean, how did you find that?

1:29:43Well, look, there's about five or six people from the Formula One life whose mobile phone numbers I have, and I can reach out and WhatsApp them and they can reply, and he's one of them. And I think that tells you that he's, you know, he has earned and probably spent more money than either of us combined will earn in our entire lifetimes, right? But would you imagine he's a multimillionaire sitting there that's won over 20 Formula One world titles? Of course you wouldn't. that's the mark of him as a man. I like him a lot. Yeah, me too. And that's it. Look, thank you so much for tuning in and listening to this conversation with Adrian Newby.

1:30:16Of course, we wish him all the very best of luck at Aston Martin in his new venture. And I do love the fact that he still seems as driven and as excited as ever to carry on making waves in Formula 1. And I'm telling you, from the start of 2026, keep your eyes on that team for sure. And if you enjoyed this conversation about Formula 1, And don't forget that from Toto Wolff to Christian Horner to Alex Albon to Lando Norris, there is so much in the High Performance Archive that you can enjoy from the world of Formula One. And if you have the time, please just hit the follow button. Honestly, for you to subscribe to these conversations, it does more than you know.

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