Alex Honnold (Free Solo): Conquering Fear, Defying Death and Finding Your Flow State (E280)

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance App. Available now, Roman Kemp, the broadcaster, opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health. If I know anything about fear, it's from having experienced it a ton. In climbing, you get scared all the time. Ten years later, ten years of consistent training and practice and preparation, all that, I finally felt ready to actually do it without a rope. And to me, that's where I sort of switch into, I can't overpower it, like I have to just perform. You know, I just have to trust my feet and my feet slip. I'm going to die. And that's it. Now it's like, it's on.

0:34If you're really trying to think about leading a high performance life, I would think honestly about what's holding you back from it. Maybe you should just do the thing you've been wanting to do. What's to lose?

0:46That is free climbing legend Alex Honnold. And this is High Performance, the show that unlocks the minds of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jake Comfrey. And alongside our expert, Damien Hughes, We learn from the stories, the struggles and the successes of our guests, allowing us all to find our own version of high performance. And Alex is a true high performer. He shot to fame internationally on the documentary Free Solo. But in the six years since, plenty has changed. And Alex is about to share it all in great detail. We loved sitting down with him just a few miles from his home near Las Vegas.

1:20We recorded this episode as part of our trip to the USA. say, I really hope you enjoy it as we welcome Alex Honnold to the show.

1:32Well, Alex, welcome to the show. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Could we start by just talking about the thing that you're most famous for, which is your free solo work. So like a lot of people, I've watched that documentary three times. The first time through my hands, not daring to actually look at what I'm watching. I'm wondering what's going on. The second time to actually enjoy it. And then the third time to share with other people to say you're not quite going to believe what is happening here what do you think when you sit and watch it with other people is the most common thing that that they they ask are you afraid do you think you're going to die things like that what's the answer yeah obviously i'm afraid sometimes but then you build up to it you train you practice you do whatever i mean the the ideal is to have a good experience and not be afraid so i mean i think part of the pleasure of of free soling of difficult free soling is to take something that should be really scary and that basically is really scary and then to make it feel comfortable through enough practice or training or whatever you know like basically go through the whole process until it feels because then you get to be in some of the most incredible places on earth you know that should be so scary and feel totally comfortable and i mean i suppose in climbing that is kind of the feeling of mastery to be in a position that you're like this should be really scary but instead i feel great you know so what like you used that really interesting term there mastery alex like what do you see mastery as for people listening to this what like what does that mean for you you know to truly feel comfortable doing something at a very high level i don't know like perfectly executing something and when did you first in your life have this desire for mastery oh i don't know i mean honestly i think that the even the term mastery has come to me later having done so many interviews about about free soloing about this type of stuff and trying to search for what the appropriate words are for the feeling and blah blah it's like i mean i would say that this is all post-hoc you know like sort of afterward i've come up with the terms to describe the sensation that you're sort of seeking oh that's interesting so let's go back to when before you realized it was mastery and it was just a feeling or a sensation well the feeling is just no i mean the feeling is feeling like the man because you're like i'm doing something challenging i'm doing it really well you know that i mean sometimes you just know that that you're doing something and it can't be done better than you're doing it right in that moment and i think that's true for any discipline in life you know like sometimes you're i mean things i'm not really skilled enough at anything else to to experience that but but i presume that somebody in the kitchen you know could be like chopping just like doing it you know like going so well and be like nobody else could be doing this better in this moment.

4:06But I'm interested because like Stephen Kotler, the author talks about how when you hit a state of flow, we tend to be 10 times more productive or snipers tend to be 230 times faster at learning. I'm interested in the conditions that you've learned when you look back on this mastery that you've achieved on how you achieve the conditions for flow. well first off I wouldn't say that I've achieved any kind of mastery I think it's more like an ephemeral state that you occasionally experience you know which is sort of the definition of flow and I mean I'm actually pretty skeptical of all the sort of like life hacky book things it was like tap into flow and type 20 times faster and like you know get your emails done because at least in my experience I've only really experienced you know I mean I don't know if you want to call it flow, but basically, you know, basically flow in very specific times brought on in very specific ways.

5:02You know, I mean, basically, because even, even free soloing, a lot of the time you're not feeling flow per se, you're just climbing and it's comfortable and it's fun and it's nice. And then every once in a while you sort of flip the switch and you're, and you're sort of an autopilot and you're just really performing. And I've really only experienced that on the hardest things. You know, I mean, I guess because, because it requires a certain level of difficulty to sort of force you into that mindset. Hey, we're just going to take a moment to share some messages from our brilliant partners. Stay with us because still to come.

5:33You know, I just have to trust my feet and my feet slip, I'm going to die. And that's it. Now it's like, it's on.

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7:21Would you take us to a moment then when you experienced flow and tell us the story of it? I mean, this is a... I mean, since... Okay, I feel like this is the sort of podcast where we're going deeper. So, I mean, I'll try to actually break it down. So with, I mean, just with free-soling El Cap, let's say, starting off the ground, definitely not in flow. Like jittery, sort of nervous, it's slightly cold, you're still warming up. And the first, now, do you guys know anything about climbing? Do you guys know? Minimal. Like grades and so like difficulty grades. So the first pitch, the first section of climbing, the first 50 meters of the route is relatively easy in American grades like 10C, which for me is something that I can easily overpower.

8:01like I can make it feel safe so I don't have to trust my feet really it's the kind of thing where like if my foot slipped I could probably hold on just like and like it'd be fine right and so but then the second pitch which is now you know 60 meters off the ground high enough that if you fell off you'd probably die uh the difficulty goes up a little bit and there are a few moves where there are basically no handholds you have to trust your feet and this isn't the part you see in the film that they sort of hype up as the free blast labs which is similar style but um but nobody was filming this first little section 60 meters off the ground because it's just it's like a ho-hum little thing but um so you have to pitter-patter across this little thing with your feet holding nothing for your hands and to me that's where i sort of switch into like this is now i can't overpower it like i have to just perform and so for me with free soling there's like a flip that switches when i have to be fully committed to it it's like now if you know i just have to trust my feet and my feet slip i'm gonna die and that's it now it's like it's on you know because at an easier level than that then you can just kind of overpower it you can you can you know like stay out of full commitment you can kind of keep half-assing it you're like i'm climbing but i'm climbing with a little bit more muscle than required because you know i want to feel safe it's like surrendering to the experience in a way right you know like up to a point you can you can just overpower it and then a certain point you just have to surrender to i'm doing this thing and see what happens so what are you trusting not that you're rolling at that point no but you're trusting you're trusting things go okay aren't you they kind of there has to be a moment where you you don't really know yeah i mean you're trusting your preparation you're trusting your footwork you're you know your self-belief you're like i know i can do this and now i just need to actually do it and in what part of the explanation you've just given us which was fantastic where's the flow moment the flow moment is after you surrender to the experience now you're flowing basically and so are you then still consciously making decisions or are things just kind of almost happening i mean ideally things are mostly just happening yeah though sometimes you still have to make decisions and with something like al cap is almost a four-hour climb so you kind of go in and out of moments um because you know what i just described i'm like okay now i'm in flow and i was like cruising for a while but then they're easier sections where it's pretty chill again and you kind of go out of that mode a little bit and then you know i stop in places and pop my shoes off i like pee off ledges and stuff so i mean it's not like you're just in it the whole time and you wouldn't want to be because you can't really maintain that kind of focus for four hours but there is often a moment doing what you do where i imagine fear comes in yeah yeah yeah for sure how do you put away the fear then what what do you say to yourself when the fear begins to rise and everyone watching or listening to this will have experienced that moment for various reasons where it kind of comes ground up doesn't it and you're like oh my goodness what's happening yeah i think in yeah i mean that's hard i think that's a big part of what you learn as a climber is how to differentiate those types of sort of well-founded fears and sort of the general anxiety like unfounded fears and when to ignore them and when when not to in this particular case what i was describing i think i just kind of reminded to myself, this is warming up, like you're supposed to be getting pumped.

11:16And I trained so much, I practiced so much. I was like, I knew that I could handle a high level of pump. You know, it's just kind of like, oh, this is, this is warming up, relax, you know, and I just kept climbing. And sure enough, you know, over the next two or 300 meters worth of climbing, it's kind of like moderate through the middle of the wall. You know, I just settled in and it was all fine. Amazing. So tell us about that inner voice, because it sounds to me that that moment of surrender there seems to be a stillness that you talk about where you just let go yeah ideally it's like an autopilot where your body just does what it's supposed to do and you don't think about it anymore yeah i guess but i'm interested in the bit where that internal chatter is very obvious so when it's i'm getting pumped and yeah i've got to remind yourself what are the techniques that you've learned in terms of to work with that inner voice rather than let that inner voice work against you and convince you that what you're doing is literally terrifying.

12:17Yeah, I don't know if I've really, I mean, the obvious things, take a deep breath, compose yourself. Sometimes that means literally relaxing your grip a little bit. I mean, as a climber, you often over grip and your vision kind of narrows and you'll just be like tunnel vision. Like it's really common in climbing. Like when people are climbing with ropes, they'll get really scared to hold on super tightly and then they'll finally get in a piece of gear, like clip the rope to something and suddenly feel safe. And then notice that there's a giant foothold below them. They can step down and be like, oh, relax.

12:44You know, things like that. It's like often your whole world contracts too much because you're like so tense. And then as soon as you feel safe again, you're like, oh, there's a huge thing I can just stand on. This is totally chill. And then you relax again. You're like, why was I so scared? And I mean, that's a pretty common experience in climbing. Like just at a normal safe day at the sport, Greg, you feel that all the time. And so you sort of train yourself that even in moments of stress to relax a little bit, take the deep breath, compose, look around, and then process. you know and how important well but none of it's I mean none of it's that clear cut it's like you're up there just doing your best you're never like here's my checklist to like manage fear you're up there just being like this is a lot yeah of course I think that's really interesting you say that actually because I think when people watch Free Solo they go well this guy's different to us he's just able to do this thing and I think for you to be really honest about the fact that there are moments of fear you're you know you're you're ticking things off you're doing what everyone else does in normal everyday life to stay Yeah, I think the difference though is that I've had to do it freaking five days a week for 20 years.

13:45You know, because like it's climbing, you just, in climbing you get scared all the time. And especially in free soloing. Like it is just fundamentally scary. Even climbing with a rope you get scared all the time. Just because you're looking at big falls and it's scary. And so, yeah, I mean I think that if I know anything about fear it's from having experienced a ton. But there's something like beyond the fear is your appetite for risk that I'd like to explore, Alex, because I think the way you've described it as you're looking down the abyss is almost one end of the scale, but then there's the exhilaration of getting to the top of it or conquering El Cap and having that sense of achievement that you've gone beyond your comfort zone.

14:31Would you tell us what you've learned about risk that our audience could maybe take away and apply in their own world? Well, I don't know. I mean, I think the key thing in managing risk is having a frank evaluation, like is it actually risky and how risky is it? Like trying to be rational about it. I mean, so much of free-souling is knowing when, I mean, you always have to stay within your own capabilities, so you have to be really honest about what your capabilities are. And no matter how rad you want to be, are you actually that rad? like it's kind of the the main thing and so there are tons of things that you'd like to do but realistically you you shouldn't and you can't you know and so because that's kind of the interesting thing is that within the context of rock climbing my free soloing is very conservative compared to my climbing with a rope you know what i mean like when you're free soloing you stay well within your abilities you keep it comfortable you know you're many grades below your actual physical max like Like you're, you know, in general, free-soling is, I mean, you don't want to call it conservative because obviously it sounds totally insane and, you know, it's harrowing and all that.

15:38But really, compared to what you're able to do with a rope, you're trying to keep it pretty safe. But there's like those stats that, you know, 50 % of us believe that we're above average drivers or like 80 % of us believe that we're better in bed than most people. That kind of delusional stats. Well, mate, yeah. But what I'm interested in is how do you avoid delusion? Because you're obviously risking life and limb. I think you just have to be honest with yourself. Can you do this? And then also make sure you're not overextending yourself. You're not trying things that are too hard. I mean, one way to think about it, so with El Cap specifically.

16:15So I free-sealed El Cap in 2017. I free-climbed El Cap for the first time, which means with a rope, with a partner, all that. I think for the first time in 2007, maybe 2006. But the first time I climbed it with a rope, I think I took one fall on the crux pitch and then did a second go. So basically, you know, it's like almost like free soloing. You know, I'd only actually waited the rope once. And then 10 years later, 10 years of consistent training and practice and preparation, all that, I finally felt ready to actually do it without a rope. And so when you think of it that way, you're like, well, that's pretty conservative.

16:45You know, like you could almost do it back then. And then 10 years later, you finally actually do it. But why did you wait 10 years then? Because it must have been... Because it's so freaking scary. Because every time you look at Al Cap, you're like, that is impossible. It's totally insane. How many times did you visit it in that period? Oh, like every season. So like in those 10 years, I was going to Yosemite every spring and fall for probably six weeks each time. So I was in Yosemite maybe three months a year for the next 10 years. And starting was in 2008, I free solo at Halftone, which is a wall next to El Cap, which is sort of one of my first big free solos.

17:17And so from then on, basically 2009 onward every season, I would be like, maybe this is my year. And for the first, I guess, for the first six years or so, I kind of kept hoping that it would just happen. You know, like, this is going to be my year. I'm going to drive in, it's going to look easy, and I'm going to do it. And after six years, I was like, it's just never going to look easy. You know, every year you drive in, you're like, that looks totally impossible. It's really scary. Like, just thinking about it would make your stomach turn a little bit, and you're like, oh, geez. So if you think, like, I often think of our ability to do something, if you think about expectation, ability, and consequences, that for us to perform our capability, we need to almost have the expectation we're capable of it, the confidence in our ability to know we can, but then to almost have the ability to manage the consequences of not being able to do it.

18:07Would you talk us through those three areas then? So the expectation you had in 2007 was, that's too hard. You go back in 2009, you're still like, that's too hard. And every year after that, how how did you start to make the expectations something that you could yeah so i think for me um the thing that i finally decided after the six years or so was that well basically i realized that i was going to have to do all the prep work like start acting as if i was going to free solo cap even though i wasn't really sure if i could or not okay start doing all the preparation do the training do everything and then see if it's possible you know because with everything else at solo i'd kind of come into it thinking like i can do this i just need to prep for it you know like i had trained and practice for some other free solos but none to the scale and i'd always gone into them thinking like i'm gonna solo that and then kind of making it happen with all cap i was like you know what i don't know if i'm gonna solo that like i'd like to solo that but i don't know if i can but i realized that i was gonna have to basically jump through all the hoops first before determining whether or not i could and so that so i mean you know it's kind of like a fake it till you make it kind of thing where i was like okay I'm just going to start doing all the things like as if I'm going to do it so you know memorizing the sequences training whatever all the things you need to do to feel comfortable on it and then sort of make a decision later so when you say like again you said I had to learn a sequence I appreciate this almost the technical element of making sure you understand where your movements are but I'm interested in the visualization side of that as well yeah well that's I mean you know in some ways that's kind of the secret sauce to free soloing i think because memorizing the sequence is sort of the physical side and that's that's the same as what you do if you're climbing with a rope you just left hand here right hand there and memorize it um though actually i sold it quite a bit differently than i climbed with a rope because i tried to make it all feel more secure like there are a bunch of sections so that actually i've gone back up there in the years since climbing with a rope for various reasons climbing different parts of the wall and trying to do different things and a few of the sections when i tried to do them again with a rope i was like, God damn, this is kind of strenuous, you know, because, uh, like I was basically doing things that were harder because they feel safer.

20:20And so from a soloing perspective, I was like, this is definitely the way I want to solo this. But then when you go back with your rope, you're like, wow, this is terrifically inefficient. You're like, yeah, I'm so tired. But anyway, that's, that's a different thing. Um, the visualization though, I mean, really that's what differentiates free soloing from rope climbing is, is this belief that you can do it without a rope, but there's no real way to practice that if you're only going to do it the one time. So visualization is the only way to practice ahead of time. And so that's imagining what it'll feel like without a rope, imagining even the psychological side, like how you'll feel when you look down and see your foot over the abyss, you know, because the thing is you're looking down at your feet all the time.

20:58So you're frequently just looking at this 2 ,500 foot drop or, you know, like 800 meters. You're like, oh, that's a lot of air. So thinking about all that stuff ahead of time. So when you get there, you're not taken by surprise or anything. And that reminds us of, we interviewed an explorer in the UK called Ash Dykes, who one of the techniques that he does when he does expeditions is he looks at, well, what could kill me? What are the moments on this expedition where I could actually die? And then he not only does the visualization that you describe, he then sort of ladles it in Technicolor with how am I going to feel?

21:34How am I going to get out of this? No, I mean, I definitely think about all that as well. like where are the places where if my foot slipped, I would just die. And then also what would happen if my foot did slip? Because, you know, most people when they're visualizing like, oh, and then you slip and you fall and like, and you just fall. But on El Cap, you don't just fall. I mean, you basically ragdoll down the wall because most of it is less than vertical. So you're basically bouncing down a less than vertical wall and occasionally hitting ledges and bouncing off things. And I mean, you know, and there've been people who have fallen off El Cap in various ways, like when ropes get cut and accidents happen and things.

22:04And so you know that it's like a complete disaster so visualizing that appropriately it's like the the crux boulder problem if you've seen the film with the the karate kick and all that stuff you know that's 2300 feet up the wall or something but if you miss the move you're only going to fall like 30-ish meters basically clean until you bounce off this ledge where you'll break both your legs and hopefully pass out and then and then it's all disaster from there i mean you're gonna explode like a water balloon at the base after bouncing off a bunch of things. It's horrible. And so I think for me, visualizing all of that so that you really know.

22:42Basically because you just don't want to be up there and then for the first time be like, man, if I fell here, I'd hit that ledge down there. You want to know that you're going to hit that ledge already. You want to have already thought it through and still have decided to do it despite knowing exactly what would happen. So you're really visualizing there the single worst thing that could happen to you. Yeah, and also the best though. I mean, you're also visualized getting to the summit and being like, I'm the man. Of course, you visualize the full spectrum of possibility. But on the negative side, if you've visualized it in the detail that you have, does that mean those thoughts don't come into your head when you're up there?

23:13I think, at least for me, I'm less likely to have those thoughts when I'm up there. I'm less likely to have sort of intrusive thoughts where I'm like, oh, I never thought about that. That's crazy. Because you're like, you know, I've thought about all the things that could happen. I've thought about all the worst case scenarios. I've set that aside. Like I've processed that already. And now I can focus on... I mean, in the case of the boulder problem, it allowed me to basically think about nothing when I did it. I just climbed, which was kind of the ideal, the flow state, whatever. But like autopilot, I just did what I was supposed to do.

23:41I love this idea of visualizing that you're a man as well. Well, I mean, you don't set out on a multi-year project like that without imagining how good it'll feel to finish it, to get to the top. You'd be like, yes. What went through your head as you came over the top then? Well, it was more like over the last 20 minutes or so, it gets kind of easier toward the last couple hundred feet um are relatively easy and so it was kind of like a victory lap you know when you're just like you're running your last little thing being like i'm so psyched so in a way when i crested the summit it wasn't like all at once i'm like oh elated you know it's like basically the last half hour i was like steadily getting more and more like this is so great i'm so psyched and was that the mastery that you were seeking i mean yeah yeah yeah basically i mean el cap probably is the most positive climate experience I've ever had and that's largely because I put so much effort into it so much time into it and that's partially because there was the film crew involved because I think had it been just me there's a decent chance I would have just forced it sooner because I think when you're by yourself you're a little I'm at least a little bit more prone to just roll the dice a little bit when I'm totally by myself to be like ah this doesn't feel comfortable but I'll just force it you know whereas when there are people watching you and filming you you're a little more like I should I I should do this properly.

24:55Like, this is slightly, you know, I don't want to be embarrassed. So, but so I think because of the whole process of the filmers and all that, I wound up putting more effort into it than I maybe would have otherwise. And as a result, it felt incredible. So that's the granular level of looking at a moment as you, as you scale it. I'd like to zoom out and talk about the fact that this was a several year project before you ended up doing it. And I'm interested in how did you go about set? So the goal of scaling it is obvious that you want to be the guy that gets to the top and free soloing it. And you have your I am the man moment.

25:31But I'm interested in how did you go about setting targets or goals for yourself to sustain your enthusiasm for this over the several years? Yeah, totally. You know, I mean, so free soloing all cap was obviously a multi-year goal. And this is kind of an interesting thing that because free soloing is so psychological, I didn't want to build it up too big because I didn't want to put it on too high of a pedestal. It's like, this is the most important thing I'll ever do because I didn't want to overweight it in a way. It already was a huge undertaking. I didn't need to make it even bigger in my mind.

26:04And so part of the way that I tried to avoid that was by keeping it in the broader context of professional climbing, like expeditions throughout the year, other trips, other goals, like other things that I was trying to do. And so free selling out of cap was something that mattered a lot to me, but I was still planning other things around it. so the year that I sold at El Cap basically right after I sold at El Cap like the week later I went to Alaska for this expedition with some friends of mine and then we climbed some new routes in Alaska and that was kind of training for an expedition I did later in the year where we went to Antarctica and climbed a bunch of walls and so I was kind of like oh which is normal as a professional climber to sort of set like I'll go to Alaska to sort of practice some things which would be good training for this other trip later in the year and so obviously I wanted to solo El Cap but I already had the whole rest of my year sort of planned out with other trips other expeditions like things going on.

26:50And so it kept it sort of in its proper place. You know, I was like, I really want to do this. But if I don't, I'm still going to Alaska and I'm still training for Antarctica. I'm still doing these other things. And so I think that helped keep it from becoming too big in my mind. You've spoken a lot, but very briefly about, I did the preparation, I did the training, I got myself ready. Would you take us inside that side of things, away from climbing, to prepare yourself physically for what else can happen? Well, it still is climbing. I mean, the physical preparation is still just climbing. I mean, for freestyle on a cap, I also got a little tighter with my diet.

27:24I was eating like mostly vegan diet with eggs. I cut dessert mostly, you know, basically I was just eating well, like very well. You know, getting my sleep, like doing extra core, stretching all the time, doing all that kind of stuff. But mostly I was climbing all the time. And that was the preparation? Yeah, that's the preparation. I mean, like I was climbing as hard as I could all the time. like as a climber, I typically climb two on one off, like two hard days, one rest day, two hard days, one rest day. And part of that's because your skin gets worked and you know, there are a lot of things.

27:56But, um, but then on my rest days, I was going and soloing big, easy routes, like cardio soloing, like scrambling up mountains and things like that and just doing a ton of volume. So I was like climbing all the time. We're going to take a very quick break, but here's what's still to come. If you're really trying to think about leading a high performance life, I would think honestly about what's holding you back from it. Maybe you should just do the thing you've been wanting to do. What's to lose? If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no.

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30:25And were there specific moments in the climb that you had to kind of train for and just get yourself ready for it? I saw you talk somewhere about you practiced a specific stretch. yeah so like the karate kick on the boulder problem you span your left foot like way over to a corner over there and basically the the more limber your leg feels the easier it is to reach out to the corner so i've been doing a ton of stretching i was i'm still not particularly flexible and actually i'm probably average like i'm not i'm not inflexible i think you okay actually i'm probably better than average but i'm not flexible you know what i mean like i'm not like some of my friends just busting the splits and i'm like i can't do that but um but yes i was stretching all the time for that specific move there's actually um there's this thing the monster off with in the middle of the wall that's uh this big gaping wide crack that you have to sort of worm your way up you like wedge half your body and it pushed really hard it takes a ton of counter pressure and just kind of like opposition muscles um that thing i was doing some like trx style workouts and sort of like core workouts um because i found that when i climbed that section with a rope i would normally come out the top feeling like a like a limp noodle you know i feel like jello i feel like all my joints were like loose and and then the hardest climbing is all above that and so i was like i knew that for so long i needed to come out the top and feel whole you know i feel normal and uh so uh so i did a bunch of core and stuff to make sure my body would like stay tight when i got through that i mean a lot of the stuff we're talking about here alex is the nurture how you develop the mindset and the physical capabilities to do something so extraordinary i'd like to switch focus to the nature element of it and think a little bit about you were born to climb mountains in many ways it sounds like but what were the like what was your background that ignited this spark of interest for you to do that i think yeah well i've been i now have two daughters so i've been thinking about this kind of thing a lot you know like nature versus nurture and how much and like what i have you know what do i have that is that is natural like it just comes to me.

32:25I mean, I think that the biggest thing is that I've just always loved climbing and I love the movement of it. I love the sensation of it. Like I love being up high. Like I love the exposure. Like I like air. I like standing on top of place structures and like getting up on roofs and things like that. So I think that's natural, like an innate desire to be in those kinds of positions. And I think that that innate desire has sort of allowed me to do the volume of training required to actually do some of the hard things because I just love I love the grind I love doing it every day but I love the process of it and I think that's what's really and then combined with maybe some psychological sides of like if you're going to do something do it well which maybe is perfectionism I mean some of that's probably my mom basically speaking through me because she's kind of a psycho so I think I ingrained some of that explain more on that you know like like she only speaks French to us but it means almost doesn't count.

33:23Sayings like that, all these little ingrained sayings, like good enough isn't. Things like that. All these little now as an adult you're like that's psycho. But it does instill a sense of perfectionism or whatever you want to call it. And at what age were you getting those messages from your mom? Probably from freaking birth. I don't know, I don't remember. Can you give us an example of where as a child you heard that that that isn't good enough I mean I honestly don't really remember you know it's weird too because my sister and I both got perfect grades like did all the things you know I was a nationally ranked athlete you know I was a climber but I went to some of the youth competitions and things so I mean I don't think there was actually a ton of like criticism at home or anything you know because we were both doing great but that was just sort of the expectation like you're going to do really well Was there a lot of love?

34:15I mean not really it's hard to say But part of it's because my parents like stayed married for the kids for too long, which in retrospect, you know, like the sort of thing where they're in a bad place, they're not in a good relationship, but they're just kind of like dragging it out because they're like, oh, we're going to stay together until the kids get through high school. And in retrospect, you're like, they should have divorced when we were like six and they had happier lives and probably would have been better. And what was the consequences of growing up in a household like that? Well, I mean, I think, I don't know.

34:46I mean, you know, shape me into the man. And I'm like, who knows? But I mean, now being in a happy marriage myself and seeing my wife's family and how loving they are and how supportive they are, I'm sort of like, wow, that's really different than the way we were raised. But that's the interesting thing. You know, you would have had, if love was lacking in your household, you probably had no idea because that's your own life. No, that's exactly. And I thought it was totally normal. It's only as an adult that you look back and you're like, huh, that seems really different. So looking back as an adult, what's the thing you look back on that period and think that was really different.

35:20Oh, just like nobody hugged, nobody exchanged kisses. I mean, there's like no touching the house. There's very little, no words of affection. You know what I mean? There's basically no signs of this very sterile home environment, you know? And how's that impacted or how did that impact your relationship with other people as you got older and needed to form your own relationships? I don't know, but I mean, specifically to climbing though, So, I mean, I was, and this is probably innate, I was very shy and just very introverted and not great with people. And so I think, I mean, part of that helped steer me towards soloing a little bit just because as I started climbing full-time, I was very hesitant to talk to strangers.

36:03And so then you're much more likely to go out by yourself and just scramble, like figure it out yourself. I also think, you know, sometimes we can look at our upbringing or things that happened in our past and see all the negative or all the stuff that we're not happy about. But there's probably a pretty fair argument that the type of upbringing that you had is pretty vital to the life that you're living now. Yeah, no, I wouldn't complain at all. And I wouldn't change anything either. I'm like, I'm great, I'm happy, I'm leading exactly the life I'd love to live. I think it's all great. And my parents did provide a ton of very positive things for my lifestyle as well, like outdoor experiences, going camping, going to the mountains.

36:43I went to Yosemite as a kid. Uh, you know, I grew up in Sacramento, so it's only three or four hours away. Um, yeah. And just, I mean, my dad taking me to the gym all the time, like starting at age 10, I was going to the climbing gym all the time and he wasn't a climber, but he would belay me. And then he would climb a little bit just to sort of, so I could rest and be, you know, he'd belay me like three or four routes and he would do one just to like break it up. And then I would do a couple more. And then I was like, you know, I mean, they, they put a lot, you know, and we didn't want for anything, you know, like we, you know, we were taken care of and well-educated you're like oh it's basically it's a great life that i wouldn't change but i think when you start to examine the the psychological underpinning of free-souling you're sort of like oh there's probably something there sure things and what would you so what's the one thing you do differently with your own children than what you experienced i mean the main difference is maintaining good relation with my wife because my wife is incredible and she's like, you know, in some ways, even if I acted exactly like my parents, if I can maintain a good relationship with my wife, then it's like going to be balanced enough.

37:47You know what I mean? It's like as long as you have somebody in the house that deeply loves the children and I don't know, it's like good yin and yang. No, but I'm really, I'm good with the kids. I'm supportive. I, you know, I snuggle, I play. There's hugs in the household. Yeah, there are hugs in the household. Yeah, actually my two-year-old is like really not into, she's like she'll never snuggle or anything really she always like jumps up and runs away and does stuff i'm interested in the role your your wife's played in this um what do you reflect is the biggest lessons that she's taught you about life i think the i mean i think the biggest lesson maybe that i've gotten from my wife is kind of this and i think maybe she there might be some quote to this effect in free solo i kind of forget or she explores the idea in the film but um but kind of like why not have it all a lot of my free soloing in the past has been sort of based on this like angsty like you just need to get into this like you know the dark tormented artist kind of mindset and just like do this thing and she was like why not do the same things but be happy i was like hmm you know like i never really considered doing that like why not come at it from a positive perspective and just you know do the exact same things but have a stable relationship and a good home life and be happy while you do it i was like that's somehow less glamorous but it is a lot nicer so what would the approach have been like before she said that then well the approach i mean i think before before i dated and then married my wife i often like i blew up several good relationships sort of just as a way of generating angst or sort of like or maybe you know who knows why you only get too psychological but like not thinking that you deserve it nothing you're worth it like nothing who knows why but just like blowing up things that like didn't need to be blown up how many times did you do that oh i had this on and off girlfriend that we both like blew things up for like years you know like at least once a year somebody would blow it up and there'd be like a couple months of drama and like and i often sort of channel that drama intentionally to go do things that i wanted to do and so it wasn't totally okay because actually in within climbing lore like within climbing history there are tons of examples of people who like break up with significant others and they go out and solo things it's like don't care if i live or die kind of thing there's that old quote from the boxer marvin haggler that said it's it's difficult to get up and run when you're wearing silk pajamas so is it difficult to free solo when you've got a happy family life and and all and all the trappings of domestic bliss yeah i mean a little bit though sometimes i wonder if it actually will make it easier because i'll just be like oh thank god like a good good change of pace from toddlers and just me and a wall and just doing the thing i love to do um sort of say i mean in the two years since i've had kids i guess i've done one big soloing projects project but even that was kind of more like ultra climbing like a ultra endurance thing it wasn't like elite difficult free soloing it was more like I mean I still free soloed a ton but it was more like up and down all these mountains um done a couple things like that I guess I don't yeah I mean it's hard to say though because I wonder about that because I often wonder like oh am I getting soft in middle age you know it's like is this all the the stereotypical you have kids and you get soft but I think for me part of it is that I have actually free soloed most of the things that I want to free solo, at least in the Western US, like all the things within range I've kind of done.

41:05I think, you know, you don't want to like sound douchey, but I'm like, I've mostly have done my life list. And so if I moved to Europe, let's say, if I was like living near the Dolomites, if I was near somewhere that had like a rich history of soloing and tons of things to solo, I'd probably be more into it. But like here in Red Rock, I don't know if you guys saw, you know, we're in, we're in Vegas, Red Rock is nearby. I've soloed all the classic things in Red Rock. And a year or two ago, I went to start dabbling on this thing that's sort of like B team or maybe C team. You know, it's not classic.

41:34It's cool. It's good. I'd like to solo it. I tried it a few times and I was like, this just isn't worth it. You know, I was like, this is like B team at best, maybe C team. I was like, the rock quality is not that great. And I'm like, I just don't want to fall to my death off something that I don't really care about. So do you think having children has changed your relationship with free soloing? Having children has definitely changed my relationship with time, you know, because I'm trying to be at home for bedtime and, and, and, you know, mornings and basically like way more time at home. And so then I set my climbing goals a little bit differently because I want to want to set goals that are sort of attainable with the lifestyle that I'm trying to live right now.

42:13But just to be clear, like, I'm sure you know this, when you type Alex Honnold into Google, it comes up with, has Alex Honnold retired? Is Alex Honnold ever going to solo again? Is Alex Honnold finished climbing? What is the answer to that? oh no yeah i'm climbing all the time i mean just like a couple days ago i sold a thousand foot in my tennis shoes in 30 minutes you know uh with a couple friends just well because like some friends and i we were in bitch on this family climbing vacation we were like climbing for fun and uh some friends and i went around into this little canyon and climbed this really hard thing actually i did this thing first try that i was pretty proud of it's basically the hardest that i've climbed first try in uh like eight years or something uh so i was like oh i feel like i feel strong feel good and then we'd sort of finished our climbing there and just around the corner from it was the route that um that the local people in that town keep ropes on like year-round so it's got like a thousand feet of rope going up it so it means that you can go by yourself and clip into the rope and just climb it um and so people in town use it as like a workout thing but i was kind of like well one i didn't have the device to clip into the rope with but also i was like i don't really care so i climbed it ropeless and then just rappelled down it but so three of my friends climbed it with the ropes and i climbed in front of them just like charging you know put on some music just charged i was like god i love doing that kind of stuff it's so fun we're about to move on to our quick fire questions but before we get there i just want to just sort of find out where you are now psychologically and mentally because you know we've spoken about this young guy lacking a bit of love and affection in his home life and then a guy that maybe channeled that into some early relationships and exploding them and needing to go and solo incredible things to sort things out in your head at times.

43:54Now you've achieved, you know, more than any climber has ever achieved in history. Your notoriety is incredible. You're a father of two. So where are you at now in your head? Like your self-worth, your happiness, your serenity? Oh, I think all a lot healthier. I mean, just all, yeah, all a lot better. I mean, a lot of that I think is a product of the healthy relationship with my wife for the last eight years i mean i think much much more stable much more relaxed much um which in some ways makes the climbing almost more fun i don't know i mean sometimes it makes you worry that you've lost the edge i'm like i don't know you know i mean just last week i climbed one of the hardest things that i've done in a long time and climbing well and so it's sort of like maybe you don't need the the angst in order to to climb well it's hard to know but you also need to be comfortable with the fact that one day the edge will go one day you will not have the physical ability to climb those and you're still you.

44:46You're far more than a guy that free solos. Yeah, I mean, I think that that part I'm still coming to grips with. Just the whole, coming to terms, the aging. I mean, I think I'm not quite... No, I mean, obviously I'm already a lot older than I was in my 20s. And I already feel it, just not recovering quite as fast. But I don't think that I've begun the full decline yet. I'm going to shoot for Tom Brady style. A couple more years. it's just so if i was to ask you in terms of identity and there's there's almost there's three titles we've heard we spoke about you as a as a partner as a parent and as a climber where would you rank those three in order of importance i still think of myself as a climber first and and then family man second sort of relationship and and parenting to me are kind of the same right now just because the kids are so small and um yeah but no i mean i mean i actually sort of think of my life as as climbing work and family sort of like the three things in that order oh no uh climbing family and work or maybe or maybe family climbing and work works always i mean you know so you guys i mean work is really to support the family and and the climbing habit i mean the reason i have sponsors and all that stuff is so that i can climb full-time But climbing has always been first.

46:08And I suspect the family will overtake it at some point. Maybe they're sort of neck and neck at this point. Right, some quick fire questions. Hit me. The three non-negotiable behaviors that you and ideally the people around you should buy into. Attention and detail. Yeah, quite important. Yeah, my wife and I both sort of hark on that. We're both pretty detail-oriented. Doing things right. Having a good time. I mean it's like you know like all my client partners like people you're gonna spend a lot of time with like people who are lighthearted about it that you can like have fun with what advice would you give to a teenage Alex just starting out specifically to me as a teenager it would have been to do some specific types of training sooner and to not I went to university for a year I just shouldn't have bothered you know I should have just carried on doing what I was doing no sort of psychological advice for your younger self to deal with the world and what's about to come Oh, no, I don't think so.

47:06I think the journey is important. It's like, I think it all went fine. What's your biggest strength? What's your greatest weakness? I think my greatest strength is maybe consistency. Just doing the things. I don't know, just grinding away. Like continuing to do it day in and day out. Greatest weakness. I mean, it's maybe been the tendency to sort of blow things up from time to time. Or like sort of self-destructive behavior. like and not in a big sense because i've never done like drugs or alcohol and i don't i don't actually self-destruct in the way that a lot of people self-destruct yeah but you know like binge on desserts or stay up too late and like random things from time to time where you're just kind of like and then and you know that you just shouldn't you know that you should just go to bed at eight and get your night's sleep but instead you're like but i just want to finish watching the show or whatever and you're like you know it's dumb but you do it anyway i think i've done a lot of things like that where i'm like you know it's not the right choice but you just do it anyway because you're like f the man i'm gonna do what i want and then later you're like i should had just done what the man told me what's the single best piece of advice you've ever received and why i mean since we were just talking about climbing work family as as the three aspects of life i mean i have some friends who have always talked about juggling the balls and that realistically you can only ever keep two in the air at the same time yeah when you're juggling so you can do two of those three things well but you can't do all three well and now as i'm more of a family man and working more and all those things i think about all the time i'm sort of like i can maintain one and do the other two well if I try really hard or I can do one well and sort of maintain two but you just can't do all three well at the same time so you kind of have to choose your seasons and finally a bit of advice from you to our audience from the incredible things you've experienced and the life you've lived what would you leave people thinking about as your one golden rule to living a high performance life if you're really trying to think about leading a high performance life, I would think honestly about what's holding you back from it and then sort of rationally evaluate whether or not.

49:04I mean, because so many people are held back by fear in different ways. Is that fear founded? Does that matter? Like maybe you should just do the thing you've been wanting to do. It's like, what's, what's to lose, you know, or like, yeah, like you've been wanting to sign up for a marathon, but you're sort of afraid because whatever you're like, who freaking cares? Sign up. You can literally walk the whole way. It doesn't make any difference. like just do the thing just like take that step forward Alex thank you so much thank you guys love that conversation

49:35Damien Jake there was a moment very early in the interview where Alex he kind of just went oh it's that sort of conversation and I think he realized that he'd never heard high performance before wasn't aware of it and realized this isn't just a another floating over the surface chat about what life is like for him that it was a bit deeper than that. And that was a really important moment, I think, because you almost saw him, his eyes lit up and he thought, oh, I can go deep on this stuff. I can get technical. I can get really honest. I can go into the granular elements of my life. And he obviously doesn't get to do that very often.

50:10And I think that's really why he offered us such incredibly rich value in that conversation. I thought it was incredible. I love the bit where we spoke about just what fear gives you. I think often we see it as something to run away from or to immunise ourselves against whereas what fear gives you is a sense of being able to not make mountains out of molehills to have a sense of perspective and to deal with life's challenges on their own terms and he's a guy scaling incredible mountains but we all have our own mountains to scale and I think exposing ourselves to those extreme emotions is really valuable and he offered a masterclass in how to do that.

50:53And I was one of those people that when I watched Free Solo for the first time, I thought, be nice to your partner. Like, don't be so intense about stuff. And it's only now that he acknowledges that. And we, you know, spoke to Alex there in a very different part of his life. He's in a different season. He's able to acknowledge that, yes, I was super intense, but at the same time I was trying to do something that was going to be life-defining for me and a lot of people around me. Having kids has changed his mindset. set he's now able to reflect really honestly about his his parents and his upbringing and you know again him saying i wouldn't change it i'm grateful for the fact that i was i had challenges in my upbringing is a lot of the reason why he's sitting in that chair today and it's a good reminder for all of us that there are challenges but it's up to us to find a way through yeah again to quote him he said it's about the journey it's not just getting to the top of the mountain it's the journey to get up there and i think that's worth remembering for us and for people listening to this and watching it that the journey is what we need to enjoy and he's a man that is in love with the journey and that's it look thank you so much for joining us please hit the follow button it helps us to grow the show and reach even more awesome guests and impact you as much as possible.

52:10And whether it's Bear Grylls or Ash Dykes, we've spoken to so many people that push themselves physically and mentally to the limits, just like Alex. And interestingly, they've all got such a different approach to their lives. Thank you so much for listening. Stay humble, curious, and empathetic, and we'll see you again soon.

52:39Thank you.

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53:48That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX.