Alex Iwobi: Wenger's Aura, Lampard's Trust & the Hard Truth About Being Yourself in Elite Football (E397)

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1:41Alex Iwobi: Alex, welcome to the show. Thank you very much for joining us.

1:44Damian Hughes: Thank you for having me. Thank you.

1:46Alex Iwobi: We want to talk about creativity in football, first of all. and this idea that so often a sport which requires creativity can also be a world that suppresses your creativity. Does that ring a bell with you?

2:01Damian Hughes: Yeah, it does, but I'm just lucky I haven't had anyone around me, coaches or family members that's restricted that. They've always encouraged me to go and be myself, so I've never felt that sort of pressure that I can't be myself.

2:15Alex Iwobi: So what was your upbringing like where freedom of expression was encouraged?

2:21Damian Hughes: Well, traditionally I came from a Nigerian background. So in my household, there was me, my sister, my mum and dad. And we're literally just being ourselves, dancing around the house, playing football in the house. Sometimes my mum used to get a bit annoyed because I'm sly tackling balloons and kicking cans in the house. But yeah, so obviously everyone knows I'm blessed to have an uncle in J.J. Okocha. So I used to go watch these games. and especially when he was at Bolton in a team where Sam Allardyce is the manager and with all your respect to Sam Allardyce he's not one that plays attractive football but with my uncle there he allowed him to go and express himself he always played with a smile on his face so literally just growing up watching him and the family I had it just said go be you and I didn't have any doubts about being myself

3:06Jake Humphrey: What does that actually mean though Alex when they say go and be you because you can hear that used a lot

3:12Damian Hughes: but what does it mean for you? Well, me, I'm a bubbly character. My friends can tell you, some of my people say, I'm a bubbly, loud character and I've been showing that recently on my social media platform so people can see the real me. But yeah, I just like to, vibes of my friends on the pitch and they like to see me. I'll probably have a bit of ban on my boys on the pitch and that's literally me in a nutshell. I just like to be a happy, happy guy.

3:34Alex Iwobi: So I think something might have changed for you in the last little while because suddenly you are expressing yourself. you are talking about your music I really want to have a conversation with you about that you've got a YouTube channel you're uploading content was there a period where you didn't feel able to be yourself and do you now feel like you've reached a point where you can?

3:55Damian Hughes: I wouldn't say not be myself but just like showcase who I am in a sense where like I've always been the same person but I didn't really put it out there like the YouTube channels or the Instagrams or the TikToks but like if you could ask my friends I'll literally be dancing around, whether if we're going Nando's, or just being clowns. If we're in a car park, we're literally dancing so silly o 'clock. But now you can see it. Like even when I play football, maybe on football, but I'm a bit more less expressive in a sense. Now I play in midfield. I literally try to get the ball and play forward. Whereas when I was younger, I used to try to do all the tricks and nutmegs, but not anymore.

4:33Damian Hughes: But yeah, I've always been the same. It's just that recently I've been showcasing the music. I've been doing music since I was in secondary school. But now I'm showing it to everyone that I enjoy putting out music and I like doing it. I like going to the studio with my friends. So it's literally just showing what I do on a social media platform.

4:49Alex Iwobi: So how has that changed then? Why are you suddenly feeling like you can talk about it?

4:55Damian Hughes: Yeah, that cliche saying that you should focus on football. When I was young, they would say don't be distracted. And if you like... If I was living how I was living... No, I'm still living the same. But if I was showing what I was doing back then, and if I had one band performance, they'll blame it on the distraction that, oh, he's in the studio, he should be going to bed maybe five minutes earlier or he's not focused on his football. But now I've got to a stage where I feel like it's come of age where it's like, I'm still going to be me. I want to show what I'm doing, but I'm showing you I'm also 100 % focused on football.

5:30Jake Humphrey: We interviewed Rio Ferdinand on this and he spoke about the challenges that David Gill and Alex Ferguson sort of issued to him when he opened a restaurant. they didn't feel he should be doing anything outside of that guise of just focusing on football have you ever had a coach or somebody within in a club that has challenged you about the music or some of the creative output um

5:54Damian Hughes: yeah well all of them all of them I've said everyone knows I like to play football outside of football with my friends I like to go goals and play five aside every manager said Alex what are you doing I can't lie but I never touch wood I never get injured so I just enjoy playing football with my friends I have a laugh so that one they always say what are you doing I can't help it if I go play football with my friends even though the intensity is very low with the music I can only go off my current manager Marco Silva he don't mind my music there's been times he's in the gym and he's bopping his head as well he don't mind but like the snapchats he did say as long as it's not like because there's been a few times he's been answering the interview like oh from Alex's Snapchat his ankle is a bit flared up is he going to play the next game so the next day he pulled me and said Alex why are you posting your ankle on Snapchat and I'm about to be like oh I knew I was going to play I just isolated it wasn't anything major but yeah Marco Silva doesn't mind what I do on my social media as long as it's positive and even my Nigeria manager likes to get involved he wants to be recorded is that right?

7:03Damian Hughes: I don't know if you've seen he's been dancing on my YouTube. He likes it. So I've never had an issue with what I put out. All the managers encourage me to do it as long as I'm performing on the pitch. And what does finding this freedom do for you? It just, I can just be me 24-7. I don't have to like hide who I am. So I can go, I can be bubbly at home and I can still be the same bubbly person at training. I'm not the loudest but I'm up there. There's like people like Calvin Bassi. I don't know if everyone knows Calvin Bassi and Samuel Chukwese. So us three, literally just round the training ground making noise and the manager knowing minds because they know like we're still focused we're still gonna be 100 on the pitch but for us to play well we just have to be ourselves so everyone encourages us to be loud so what is the truth then about

7:48Alex Iwobi: footballers having interests outside of football because as you know i spent 10 years hosting for bt sport premier league champions league and i often was sitting there hearing ex-footballers say oh this player's distracted by something that's going on outside the game you know whether it's like a fashion brand and you know we've seen footballers really badly um criticized i mean you know a couple of former everton players like you know tom davies dominic calvert lewin you remember they went just literally went to a fashion show it made every newspaper it made every social media post what's the truth when people say if you have something going on outside of football it

8:22Damian Hughes: distracts you from football what is the truth it's weird because like we are humans i think everyone forgets that we're humans as well. Like, we have a life outside of football. So there'll be a lot of people, I'm sure everyone's not just football, football, football. Otherwise, you could go mad.

8:38Jake Humphrey: Yeah.

8:39Damian Hughes: So like, there's a lot of people on my team that love golf. Golf's not, you know, some people say you could get hurt if you swing a certain way. Like, everyone has things they love doing. So like, Tom Davis and Dom, I remember when I first joined Everton and to me, their style's a bit crazy. So when they used to come in that mad outfit, I'm like, whoa. And people were like, oh, you need to focus on football. Like, just wear a night tracksuit and come into training, but they're just being themselves. And I always encourage it because being you, that's who you should be. You shouldn't be listening to with the outside noise focus and what works for you.

9:08Damian Hughes: So can I ask you then

9:09Jake Humphrey: about that post-Afcom final where you caught an awful lot of abuse and he came off Instagram. What was it about that that sort of gave you the encouragement to back away from being you publicly?

9:25Alex Iwobi: We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners.

9:28Damian Hughes: because after the AFCON, I didn't really see a lot until like I came off because I just wanted to live in the real world. Like I just wanted to be myself with no one questioning, no one bothering me. And literally what I do really matters to like my friends and my people. So I don't really want to hear the outside noise saying, oh, you shouldn't be doing that, shouldn't be doing this. But then you have brand deals and then you have to, people want to see who you are. So I did have to come back. But yeah, I don't like listening to the outside noise. Even now, if I post, I'll let my friends view the comments or someone view what people are saying.

10:05Damian Hughes: I never go and look what type of my name and see what people are saying about me.

10:09Alex Iwobi: So on that moment after the AFCON match, did you make the mistake of going on and seeing the criticism and then delete the account or what happened there? Nah, so I was just very disappointed.

10:20Damian Hughes: I just wanted to be by myself after the AFCON final. and I came off it I think like literally instantly so the next day Victor Semon the main striker he's knocked on my door like I thought I was late for something the way he knocked on my door I thought I was in trouble he banged on my door and said Alex I need to talk to you and I thought it's something serious like am I in trouble he said Alex I don't like what the media is saying about you and I'm like what are they saying I can't see you I'm off and he goes yeah they're saying that the media has affected you like you've done so much on Nigeria and I'm like bro I just literally woke up that way I'm good he goes no I just want to make sure you're good and that's when I first found out that people were talking about me but then I just said to Victor like I don't care like I'm good and he goes oh I just wanted to make sure and he was just circling around and we were travelling back to Nigeria and it became a big deal that I had to come back on Instagram just to make sure to tell everybody that I'm mentally in a good place I just wanted to come off of that piece of mind

11:11Alex Iwobi: and did it affect you when he told you that's what people were saying

11:17Damian Hughes: um yeah and no because I don't want people thinking I'm in a bad place like I'm those there's people going through a lot worse in this world and like if you're going through something I always say like tell people that speak to someone so I don't want people thinking like I'm in need of desperate help because I was actually okay so when he told me that I was like oh I feel like I need to put a message out there so I remember me and my team put together like our own mini podcast mini interview just to tell people what's going through my mind and I can say it to everyone I was always okay

11:45Jake Humphrey: so that sounds like you've you've thought about your inner circle and making sure that the that they're on board with how you receive the information. What kind of conversations have you had with those that are close to you then to make sure they're giving you the right information rather than all the noise that you describe?

12:04Damian Hughes: I mean, if anything's ever too negative, the first point of time is my dad. He's always looking on Twitter. He's an ex now. He's always on there. And then he tells you what people are saying. Yeah, no, that's just my dad. He's always on there. They would tell, like, my peoples are here now. He sends them everything about me. He's a very proud guy, I have to say. But, yeah, so, like, he would probably tell me my team, if anything's ever that bad, they'll say, oh, this, maybe we need to do this. But this is why my team's good, because we always like to control our own narrative in the sense where, like, I like to put out, if you're going to hear something, it's going to come from me, not from just hearing rumours.

12:41Jake Humphrey: So what about, though, in terms of relationship performance, how do they give you feedback? have you had the conversation about like how they deliver it when they deliver it what areas that that you're willing to listen to them on um well they obviously my dad my my friends always give

13:02Damian Hughes: their opinions but it's more on a mental stage it's like oh you did good like keep going but if i really want that help with football i speak to like my coach i'm a manager on that my teammates in like everything's really positive there's never really negative even if there's like something to improve on it's not like no one's shouting no one's yelling at me they just come in a calm manner but um yeah no one ever delivers messages to me like in a mad way everyone's like really positive so and uh it's been like that from even when i was at ever and i was going through that difficulties on the pitch they would say don't worry you get back you get back like it was never

13:34Jake Humphrey: like anything negative they always pushed me to go and can you give an example though of like a bit of feedback from your inner circle that has made a real positive difference to you for example at

13:45Damian Hughes: Everton when there was times I wasn't playing and I was on a tackle more like a winger trying to get goals my team my dad said um my team's proposed to my dad oh Alex should maybe do extra finishing maybe it'll help him get his goals and I was a bit stubborn at first saying oh I don't want to pay no one to go and do finishing I could just go do it myself but then I listened to my team we went to somewhere in Manchester and we just worked on my finishing like once a week and yeah it helped me it helped me build confidence to get on the pitch and literally just shoot from anywhere as much as I can so just little things like that my team will help

14:21Alex Iwobi: I think one of the real secrets to being an elite sportsman or being in the public eye like you is the ability to deal with rejection, with criticism with people having a conversation about you that you're not part of and actually if we look back through your story like rejection is a is a pretty common theme and I wonder whether actually you can now reflect on what happened early in your career and find some gratitude for the fact that your resilience was built at an early age. And for people in the room that don't know, I think it would be nice to tell them the story of what happened to you when you were just 14 years old at Arsenal.

14:54Damian Hughes: Yeah, I'm born in May, so I'm one of the late ones in my year. So when I was 14, I wasn't fully physically developed like everyone else in my year. So I've always been lucky I was technically good, but I wasn't far strong, I was quite small. So they always said to me, you're not strong enough to play with your own age group. Keep working on your technical ability. Hopefully you develop over the time. So at 14, I almost got let go. So that was difficult in a sense where you have that, you have schoolwork. There's a lot you're trying to balance. And I'm thinking, oh, then you're going into school.

15:24Damian Hughes: I was not favoured in school because I was quite slow as well when I was 14. But they'll say, and I went to a rugby school, which did not help because I'm skinny and I'm slow. I'm not winning anything at rugby. But then they were like, oh, he's the Arsenal kid. he thinks he's good and da da da da but when I was 15 16 it turned wrong because I started growing and I played for England and that's when it started to change when Arsenal started rating me a bit more saying oh like he's developing and even at 16 was even tough because everyone that played for England my age group got offered a professional contract but I was the only one that didn't so there was like so many names there was like six of them that got offered a professional contract so how do you how do you find that out?

16:05Damian Hughes: so you find out obviously everyone I don't know if everyone knows about Hayland. Hayland's where the Arsenal Academy is. And at the time, it was, I believe, Liam Brady who was telling us, ah, they actually said to me, you're going to get a scholarship, but if you want to go to another club, feel free to look. I thought, what does that mean? Do you want me or not? Sort of thing. So then I actually looked at Crystal Palace, looked at Celtic. I went to the Crystal Palace training ground and had a look. But then, like you said, I've been through a lot of rejection. With rejection, and whenever I get told I'm not good enough, I always like to prove that I am good enough to stick around.

16:41So I said, me and my dad said, we're not going nowhere.

16:43Damian Hughes: We're going to prove that I'm good enough to play for Arsenal.

16:46Jake Humphrey: But you said earlier about the social media that you like to control the narrative. What story were you telling yourself though? Because you're hearing the messages that they're not sure about you.

16:56Damian Hughes: What was it that convinced you? I always believed I was good enough. The same friends that I hear today, most of them are from back then as well. They always tell me now, Alex, you're sick, you're good, man. You can do whatever. You do things with the ball that no one else does. I'm like, yeah, then my dad will say the same thing. Then my uncle will say the same thing. So I'm like, if these lot see it, I need to prove to the other people that don't see it that I can play football. So yeah, I just literally believe myself that one day I'll turn around and I'll change their opinion.

17:26Jake Humphrey: So did you have a conversation with Liam Brady to ask him what do I need to improve or what is it that I need to do to convince you?

17:34Damian Hughes: He always said just we need you to physically develop. That's what he always used to say to me because I wasn't the quickest until like 18. I was one of the slowest, but I could always run for days, but I was just very slow. So he just said, maybe over time. And he actually believed saying, over time, I'm sure it will come, but just right now, we're not sure about you.

17:53Alex Iwobi: And at what point did your career at Arsenal start to involve Arsene Wenger? When did you first start getting regular interactions with him?

18:02Damian Hughes: When I was 18. but the good thing about Arsenal when you're a scholar a lot of players go on international break there's so many players that always go play for their country so they're always losing a lot of players so they need players to fill training sessions so they'll call people from the under 18s so there'll be a lot of times I'll go and train with the 18s and this is another reason why I can play numerous positions because I'll be playing right back, I'll play left back, I'll play centre mid I'll play striker in training I remember one time I played right back and Arteta was getting onto me saying Alex no he didn't even know my name he said hey you I need to do better and I thought yo this is tough at 16 hearing that I need to do better and I'm playing right back so that's when Arsene Wenger I think started to realise who I am and then the more you train well the more you get called over and I literally picked up when I was 18

18:52Jake Humphrey: and is there a story or an anecdote about Wenger that gives you a hint of how special he was

19:00Damian Hughes: the older I'm getting the more I'm realising and like, he's not a man that says many words. I used to think like, why is he so quiet? Why is he so chill? But when he speaks, when he walks in, everyone's just silent. There's only two people I've seen do that. It's him and Carla and Chalotti where they can just walk in and everyone's just like this. No one says anything. And obviously, because he was my first manager, I was thinking, why is no one talking? Why is no one saying? Because I had Steve Bould before that, like Steve Gatton, they walk in and everyone's still talking. But with him, yeah, he's had this mad presence, mad aura.

19:32Damian Hughes: And then even like when he speaks to me, I'm like, I don't even know what to say. So he's presence, he's aura. And when he talks, he does a lot of knowledge. Like he understands the game. And especially youngsters, he's always talking to youngsters to try and improve your game.

19:45Alex Iwobi: So when you were a youngster and you were just coming through, what would he be saying to you? Even if it wasn't a lot, what was he saying?

19:53Damian Hughes: For me, because I was playing in midfield a lot of the time, he just seemed like composure, like stay calm and composed. Relax when you're on the ball, take your time. Of course, training sessions, like, maximum three touches in the pitch. So, but he always said to me, stay composed, you've got a lot more time than you think. Because there'll be times when I first started training first team, the intensity is high. So I'm feeling like I need to get my pass off quick before someone comes and bullies me and barges me. Like Francis Cochrane cleaned me one time in training. I thought, I don't want to feel that pain again.

20:22Damian Hughes: So I'm trying to rush the pass. But he said, nah, take your time, breathe. Then when you're watching the likes of Ozil, you're like watching Santi Carzola and Jack Wilshere, they're playing like there's no pressure. So then the more I'm training and the more he's telling me that I'm realizing, oh, like, once you have a good touch, you actually have more time than you think.

20:41Alex Iwobi: And when you first started playing with the first team and you saw those amazing talents, the Wilshers and the Ozzles and the Santi Cazolas and many others, how present was imposter syndrome? Was there a voice in your head asking you if you were good enough to be there? Or did you always have the belief that you were?

20:58Damian Hughes: No, I always had the belief. I always had the belief because I'll never look like I'm out of place and always after a training session like even though I got cleaned up by Cochlin he'll tell me you're training well like he said you're doing well Murtasaka all the time used to be in my ear saying Alex like you're doing really good you're doing really good and even there was one time Koscielny and he's someone another person that doesn't speak said to me you're doing well so I was like okay I must be doing something right and because the manager is always talking to me he gives you that confidence that you're doing well anyway and yeah I really enjoyed it because it's like the more I see youngsters come up now sometimes the managers don't always talk to the young players like what to work on and what to improve on and was there a specific

21:40Jake Humphrey: moment when you felt I'm comfortable here that I can do this

21:47I think

21:49Damian Hughes: pre-season tour in Singapore when I got called up and I was like wow like I'm I'm really going away with the first team with the men's team and like I'm representing them and then I played in the Emirates Cup against Lyon and I played when I scored and I thought wow because in the moment you just think Arsenal's like it's top the intensity is high I don't know if I'm going to cope when I'm playing other teams but because I was grateful to be playing in such a team that was one of the best in the world best players in the world when you play against other teams other players it's not as hard so I thought if I can cope here playing for Arsenal and play the way I played against Lyon or Singapore tour, I can play literally anywhere.

22:31Alex Iwobi: And what year was that tournament when you felt like, yeah, okay, I belong here?

22:39Damian Hughes: Commonly, I was 18. I was 18 in Singapore thinking, wow, I'm literally handling myself here.

22:47Alex Iwobi: And how long after that was it when Arsene Wenger left and was replaced?

22:53Damian Hughes: I must have been 21. I was 21. You were 21. maybe three years later

22:59Alex Iwobi: I'm interested in that period transition because there was a period where at Arsenal you know do you remember the planes flying overhead Wenger out the chance the banners that kind of that toxic atmosphere and you're one of the young players trying to perform in that and then suddenly this like legendary manager leaves and Una Emery comes in what are your memories of that period and trying to protect yourself in that environment

23:21Damian Hughes: from what I remember obviously there was a lot of pressure on us and we couldn't hear even though people say like focus like you don't let the stretch get into you or get into the team everyone could hear it because like we're being compared to like the Invincibles and we're not doing well then I think some ex-players are saying yeah it's not the same Arsenal then it's like the time when there was Arsenal fan TV it was literally growing up and would the players see the Arsenal fan TV? I know most of them will say no but players did see it because there'll be times I'm not going to say exactly what was said there'll be times where like one person will get trolled by another player calling them the names that would be said by like troops.

24:02And I'm like, because I'm one of the young ones,

24:04Damian Hughes: so I know, I can hear it. I see it on my Twitter. I'm like, Rod, you lot watch it. Like you're actually hearing what they call each other. But they're always the nine. No, we don't watch it. We don't watch it. I'm like, how do you know that nickname then? But yeah, everyone could see what's going on like social media back then.

24:19Jake Humphrey: And did it start to create cliques and divisions in the dressing room? I think from the first time

24:27Damian Hughes: I started playing up, there was, there is a bit of like a division, but it's not. Like, they are one team, but you naturally tend to go to like, French players will speak with the French players. Spanish players will stay with the Spanish players. The English players will stay with the English players. It's always the case. Even like now, at Fulham, even though we're very good, very good, like one team, the Brazilians stay with each other, Spanish stay with each other. The UK boys, like me, Emil, Calvin, says we all stay with each other but we still like have good banter with everyone but it's

24:58Alex Iwobi: everywhere I go is always like that I think the interesting thing about that that period with Arsenal fan tv and all that criticism is that people often don't see footballers as human beings yeah right they just think they're immune to it I'd love to hear from a current footballer about what it actually does the impact that it does have or what it does do to your confidence or your form or your ability to to play well when all that stuff is going on when you're sort of in that toxic environment?

25:25Damian Hughes: It's tough for me to understand what actual players were going through because I was one of the young ones then. So I think the most I probably speak was probably with Danny Warbeck at the time. And he just says he doesn't care about social media. Even now, you don't really do anything with social media. He's always been like that. But Theo was the same. He just locked in with football. I never really spoke to him on social media, but I don't think it affected them that much because they were still coming to train and give 100%. Maybe internally they were going through things, but I would never know because I was never close enough then to ask them like, what's really going through your mind?

26:01Damian Hughes: I was just the youngster just minding my own business.

26:03Jake Humphrey: But if we fast forward further on in your career, when you were at Everton, where there was lots of turmoil surrounding the club and the team, what was your experience of that outside noise then?

26:15Damian Hughes: Yeah, that's when I started learning about things. and especially me, a Londoner used to playing, used to having a lot more possession of the ball to going to Everton where, with all due respect to Everton back then, their main focus was slide tackling people, smashing people, running hard. And it's never been in my nature. So they used to be, oh, this Londoner is so soft. Needs to focus on getting the ball back. He does one fancy flick and I'm just thinking, bro, like I'm trying to adapt to it. and obviously for me even though it weren't a foreign country it felt like a foreign country because the Scouse language is a bit mad for me so I couldn't understand what they were saying at first I couldn't understand what they were saying but the one thing about Scouse is they're so friendly they're so friendly they're so welcoming but in terms of like in the team even though there was a lot of toxic like things going around because we weren't obviously weren't performing the best off to the standards we know we could have when we had the great players that we did that everyone was still like we were still close we still do things together we go out for meals and everyone was close but of course we were disappointed in ourselves we always come into training everyone's always working hard in training that's one thing with effort and everyone's smashing each other in training that's standard so everyone's working hard so I'll never say anyone was like mentally down but we just knew that we could do better

27:35Alex Iwobi: It's interesting though what you say about feeling almost like you were playing abroad when you just moved to a new city and I think we often don't really give players credit for actually what a difference it makes to suddenly transfer to a new club. People expect you just to pick up and play exactly as you were. What are the challenges of changing football clubs? Yeah, so... We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners. I don't know about you, but I really love keeping my money where I can actually see it. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless companies seem to like hanging on to my money for me.

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30:53Damian Hughes: Once again, I can only talk about my experience. I was away at AFCON. I had a good AFCON. I've come back I've been told by Una Emery you get two weeks extra go enjoy your holidays I'm in Dubai with my family having a good time they signed Nicolas Pepe great player as well by the way not to say anything bad he's a great player and I thought if you really want me why are you signing another winger like what's going on here but I didn't think anything of it my agent told me he said everyone are interested I said oh that's nice to hear like no just that's nice to hear I'm in Dubai in the ocean minimal signal my agent's calling me I'm like I can't hear what you say I can't hear he goes Marco Silva wants to talk to you I'm like alright Marco Silva tells me oh Alex we want you to we think you suit our playing style and I'm thinking oh man like I appreciate that it's nice to hear and then before the next thing you know Arsenal sent off like my medical documents so before I even get a chance to say yes or no Arsenal basically saying we don't mind you going I was like oh alright fair enough this could be so I spoke to my parents it was literally my parents and my sister on the boat and I thought maybe it's time for me to step out my comfort zone become a man go somewhere different anyways fast forward landed in London I've literally had to shoot up north in I don't know if anyone knows about the Titanic in Liverpool it's a dark hotel big room you're by yourself just you and your thoughts and it's so lonely in that hotel I've stayed in the hotel

32:25Alex Iwobi: and you're right tiny windows

32:26Damian Hughes: tiny windows so dark but then And I'm like, oh, what have I done here? I'm by myself here. Anyway, it's cool. How long were you there for?

32:39Damian Hughes: Overall, I would say two, three months. But there was international break, so I wasn't there all the time.

32:43Alex Iwobi: And is it hard when you're suddenly in a hotel?

32:46Damian Hughes: Yeah, it is because I've always been an Arsenal kid. Arsenal's always what I knew. So to go stay in a hotel, I literally just moved out by myself as well. So now I've moved out of an apartment to going in a hotel that's dark all the time. even though I was with like Moise Keane he was English weren't the greatest at the time so we didn't even really hang out but he's my boy and he's my close friend but then like I'm trying to understand what Scousers are saying I couldn't understand when they said do you want something to eat I'm not used to not eating my mum's cooking like if I wanted to go to the shop I could do that in London I wasn't really I was half scared to do it in Liverpool just to go to the shop but one thing about everyone everyone made it easy as long as I'm going to training they'll give me food to take home that was the easy bit but it's just like I'm away from my friends I'm away from my family oh nice

33:38Alex Iwobi: don't worry no one even noticed yeah absolutely

33:41Jake Humphrey: but can I jump in there though Alex because you've sort of skipped over the bit of you're in Dubai you get the call that Arsenal are willing to let you go you have a brief conversation with Marco Silva what kind of questions are you asking him because it sounds like you're almost a pawn in this. The club have decided that that's the place you're going to go to because they'll pay the fee. But what are you asking him whether it's the right fit for you?

34:05Damian Hughes: I didn't even have to ask him. He just kept on saying to me, you fit into our team. We're going to play. It's what everyone does when you're trying to, like, you're trying to build things and put positive things in someone's head. So, like, you're going to play. You're going to play number 10. You're going to do this. You create so many chances for Arsenal. You can do that for Everton. the players are going to like you you can chill with this person so he's just putting things in my head I don't have time to ask what's this like everything's just perfect

34:32Jake Humphrey: that's what he made it seem like but do you ask him questions about how do you develop a player how do you give feedback how are you going to improve me do you get a chance to do that?

34:43Damian Hughes: no I didn't get the chance because it was on deadline day as well so there was not enough time for me to ask those questions like it was literally yeah he said what do you think are you willing to do this So I'm like, give me five minutes, let me speak with my family. And then they said, yeah. Then I called my agent and said, yeah, we're down to do it. So I didn't get time to ask, like, how's your player management like? What's the liaison like? What's the training run like? Do you have this facility? I didn't get time to ask that.

35:07Jake Humphrey: But if you had your time again and you had more time, what are the kind of questions, based on the experience you've had, that you would encourage somebody to be asking if they were in a similar situation?

35:18Damian Hughes: What's the player care like? as in like the liaisons the people you can go to when you're struggling for like I don't know for food or if you want to go to I don't know supermarkets you want to go to the nearest train station just things like that because even though I did eventually find out that but I just think like that because in case like whenever I just want to feel homesick for example just want to get on a train and go back to London but yeah I think I would have asked that for sure

35:46Alex Iwobi: I get a sense that there was like almost a bit of loneliness in those early days at Everton. Like you're suddenly, one minute you're on holiday, the next minute, the club you joined as a boy has basically said, we don't want you. You've ended up, in 24 hours, moving to another football club and suddenly you know nothing about the place you're in and you're just there on your own in a hotel.

36:05Damian Hughes: Yeah. It's literally just like that. But in fairness to Everton, like I said, they were very welcoming. Like very, very welcoming. The players, they're so nice. Magic football club. Yeah, no. Even like one person in particular, Seamus Coleman, nicest guy ever even to this day whenever I see him I message each other he's the nicest guy ever he definitely helped my time there

36:25Alex Iwobi: and how did you cope with with the message from Arsenal that we think we're going to let you go um I was like

36:33Damian Hughes: oh at least let me make the decision for myself like I didn't have to do a medical at least like if I wanted to go let me say I want to go they just said like here you go here's his fouls we know he's on holiday like he's good to go I was like oh are you sure you guys really want me no disrespect to Pepe again you just signed Pepe I was like oh fair enough I don't know if I'm really going to play then what's crazy even though I was like I just moved Arsenal played against Liverpool maybe like three weeks after that so I'm coming back to my hotel I've seen the whole team I've seen Nicolas Pepe as well I've seen and Una Emery seen me and they pulled me for a chat saying it wasn't his decision it was the club's decision they couldn't sell any other player and the most money they could get was from you so I was like oh fair enough he said this is football that I respect you as a football player even when he played Aston Villa he shakes my hand he asks how my family he's a nice guy but it's just that made me realise that football's also a business

37:37Alex Iwobi: just to pick up that's a really important point actually that as a footballer you can be made to feel so important you're earning great money you're so well looked after like you're being lauded and celebrated, millions of followers. But you also pretty much have no control over the direction that your career takes. If your club decides that you're done, you're done. It's a strange situation that is.

37:57Damian Hughes: Yeah, I mean, you can ultimately say no, but then sometimes you get frozen out. I could be asked to just be frozen out. So I just took it as my own self. But yeah, it does happen a lot in football.

38:07Jake Humphrey: So you mentioned Unai Emery there in terms of that conversation. your period at Everton sort of then coincided with a number of different coaches yeah who were the ones that sort of unlocked something in you and got a potential out of you that maybe you didn't know was there

38:25Damian Hughes: well obviously Mark at the time there it was very short but he always said to me like he can be a difference maker it's a shame it happened when he left but the two that stand out for me were Duncan Ferguson because he himself showed me what Evan's about, just the passion. He's like a fan. He's like one of us. He comes into training and he's just excited. He's giving everyone energy. When he was the manager, everyone was fighting for him. Everyone respected him. He's a legend there. So he taught me about literally just giving 100%. Because before that, don't get me wrong, I give 100%, but I wouldn't go and fly into tackles.

39:07Damian Hughes: But he's the one that made me do that. and then the second one everyone I say all the time Frank Lampard and he in a sense I always say he denies it I say he resurrected my career because it was at the time when he was signed there was Rafa Benitez beforehand I wasn't in favour with him he just he's a guy that doesn't like having possession of the ball he's more what you do the ball and I like to keep the ball sometimes and play and I was a winger that maybe didn't run in behind and attack in behind the way he liked so more time I was on the bench I wasn't playing and then it was at the AFCON where I just got a red card I've came back and I've been told that I'm meant to go on loan to a team in Turkey and I thought nah I can't do this this can't be me no disrespect to the team in Turkey by the way but then Frank Lampers come in literally as my AFCON's finishing and he said he didn't know what to expect to me at the time him and Joe Edwards and actually Cole they didn't know what to expect to me they've heard things about me obviously they've seen me in the past spot because I was in favour or whatever and they were like they didn't know what to expect but one thing I'm lucky I'm always good in training so I remember Frank and Joe Edwards pulled me for a chat said why don't you play like this the way you train is excellent why don't you play like this in matches I said oh the way I was told Rafa Benitez just set the ball and try running behind he goes nah play your game so when we're talking about like being me Frank Lampard just said be you and that's literally what worked for me

40:33Alex Iwobi: so when you have a manager that wants you to do something that just doesn't feel natural Is there an opportunity to go, no, no, no, that's not my game. Like, let me express myself on the pitch.

40:42Damian Hughes: I tried that. I've learned the hard way. Honestly, I learned the hard way. Tell us the story. It's a moment of madness from me, though. So, like, everyone knows I like to get on the ball. I like to play football. I like to, like, one and two touch and keep the ball. And he just didn't see me as that player. so then there'll be opportunities for me to play and I'm playing right wing back playing right back I'm playing right midfield and he's literally saying when you get the ball which I do get give it to James Rodriguez give it to like Alain give it to other people I thought I could do something as well you know I've got a bit surely and then there was one time social media I said I wish I could play my preferred position I put on my story and he got asked in a press conference then he said then he comes to me he said where do you usually play I said well in the academy I played in midfield as number 10 number 8 he goes okay we're going to try next game we tried against Burnley it was like 2-0 at half time and Dwight McNeil I remember scored a banger he said Alex we'll play in your left wing played left wing the second half for 10 minutes got dragged I think the next 4 games I didn't play again so I said wow I don't think I'm ever going to talk up on social media or talk up to him again so what went wrong in that game?

42:02Damian Hughes: I personally didn't feel like I had a bad game. Maybe I did, but I just didn't see it. Because I thought I was getting on the ball, I was playing forward and I don't, from what I remember, I didn't lose the ball, I probably lost on the ball like twice. I remember counting because I was thinking, wow, did I play that bad to get moved and dragged off the pitch? But then he just said I didn't have, well, I feel that he feels that I didn't have the impact to like James Rodriguez has where he's always going to create something. Maybe I just wasn't doing that. But there's something here about trust, isn't there?

42:28Jake Humphrey: Yeah. That somebody actually trusts in you and it sounds like that's what Frank and Joe Edwards gave you that sense of trust. What does that do for your performance when you feel that a manager

42:40Damian Hughes: just has that level of trust in you? Yeah, for me, when a manager has trust in me, I'm not scared to try things. Even if I lose the ball, I want to get on the ball again and try and make something. That's the sort of player I like to make things happen, like to create a chance, like to play the ball forward. So when a manager's telling me just say, yeah, go do that, even if you lose the ball, go do it again, because we know nine times out of ten, you're not going to lose the ball, you're going to create something. So when the manager's telling me you just literally go do you. You almost feel unstoppable.

43:05Damian Hughes: You feel like every time you get the ball, you're going to do something.

43:07Jake Humphrey: Because that ties in with all the research within elite sport. It's often dubbed as psychological safety. The idea that you can make mistakes and it's not held against you. You know, well, you can make an error and you don't get singled out for it.

43:24Damian Hughes: Yeah, no. It does help. It does help who you're around, who you surround yourself with. And I've had different managers, there's different players around at Evan. But that time, when I had Frank Lampard and Joe Edwards, I've always had Seamus Coleman say, no, you're a good player. You're so expressive. Leighton Baines. Even when we played against Evan recently, he said, no, it's nice to see that you're free. I had Fabian Delft. Normally the older players that would say it to me, the younger players, they really say, they're not going to tell someone older than them to go be yourself. But the older players used to tell me, you're so good, trust yourself.

43:55Damian Hughes: And when you're hearing it from people like Frank Lampard, he's a legend. I hear it from Fabian Delft, Seamus Coleman. these are legends to me just go be yourself go play it's like wow if they believe why don't I believe

44:05Jake Humphrey: so if you had to put a figure on it in terms of what what a difference it made to your performance what would you say trust did for you um it

44:17Damian Hughes: it does a lot for me like almost like 50 % of my games on that in a sense where like if I don't hear those things or I don't feel trusted instead of trying to play the ball forward I probably just set the wall I won't do nothing I'll be I'll never be one to hide on the ball I'll hide from getting the ball but I'll probably just set the ball play the safest pass and try to keep the ball but then it's like now the ball went back then so now when I get on the ball my first thought always is to go forward never to do the negative boring pass I always like to make something happen

44:51Alex Iwobi: So when do you think this was unlocked? Was it Frank Lampard? Was it leaving Everton and joining Fulham under Marco Silva again? Like when was the moment that the kind of real Alexander Iwobi was unlocked because I look at your music we're going to talk about your new EP in a minute I look at your socials your YouTube I don't think it's a coincidence that you look free on the pitch just as you're acting free in your personal life there's like a there's like a real freedom to you now yeah

45:18Damian Hughes: but then again when I was at Arsenal I was also very free in a sense that's when I was heavily like on Snapchat and I was just that's when my dad was trending on Snapchat chat for just he kept on saying it's safe so every time he just comes to the camera saying it's safe so literally i was free of arse and that's when i was breaking and i was doing well so when i'm being told to like tame down and be negative or not play negative football but like the others do the job that i feel i can do so i just feel like oh yeah i'm losing that trust losing that belief but like i wouldn't say i've never had it because before i asked no i did but it was nice that's why i say frank resurrected and brought it back in the sense where i can just be me and play how I want to play and then that was actually the time when I started doing music but I wasn't putting music out back then when Frank Lample was the manager

46:07Alex Iwobi: and what's Marco Silva done to continue to feed that freedom that Frank gave you

46:14Damian Hughes: so as soon as I signed the same thing that he did to get me to heaven the same thing he did for me to come back to Fulham saying I believe you you're a good player the same but it's just nice because he's a good manager he's a very very good manager but like he always said to me like he always believed that I can be a difference maker that in the prem I've always got the stats of creating chances I'm always like top 5, top 6 so he said just do that for us and we'll be ok and the goals will come like naturally the more you get into those positions and in training I'll work on my finishing and he said the goals will come of course it's changed a bit now because I play deep on midfield but he always told me to do that and he'll work with me after training so yeah and now obviously he knew back then I was releasing music just as I was leaving Everton so he said yeah whatever works for you whatever keeps you happy just do it

47:07Jake Humphrey: and I was like okay fair enough I'm really intrigued by that line that you've used a couple of times in relation to Frank where you spoke about that it was a resurrection what have you done to protect yourself now because managers come managers go so this so this idea of being able to immunise yourself against that what changes have you made since then

47:27Damian Hughes: what's helped me a lot is actually moving back to London as much as like being up north was very nice but moving back to London I'm very like I see my friends on a regular basis I see my peoples on a regular basis my mum and dad especially my dad he will be around the house once a week just to see how I am he says he says it's to collect things from the house but it's literally just to see how I am he's coming to my house tomorrow he says he wants to collect documents he's lying and then he'll try and say he wants to see the dogs he's lying he wants to see me I know what he's like but just seeing like my people seeing my friends being happy away from the pitch has definitely helped me on the pitch let's talk about

48:06Alex Iwobi: your new EP More To Life I mean I think the fact it's called More To Life sums up what this is about there is more to life than just being a footballer so do you look at music and think one day this is a career this is the future for me like do you have ambitions to conquer the world of music in the same way you've conquered the world of football

48:27Damian Hughes: even with football the music I've never looked at I'm trying to conquer the world it's just something I enjoy doing I really enjoy being in the studio with my friends and just literally playing hearing a beat and we're just talking about our lives that's literally what we always do so I've never once thought I want to be the next Drake or I want to be the next Lil Wayne but you'd take that though right of course all day all day but yeah I just like doing what I enjoy So even like music, football, charity stuff, I like going to like homeless shelters and seeing the impact it makes, just giving someone like a turkey that I did last couple of years ago.

49:05Damian Hughes: I like just doing things like that. I never know what's going to happen from it, but I just do it for myself and like I enjoy doing those things.

49:12Alex Iwobi: So what does that do for you? Because I know that that gathered a lot of press, the fact that you around Christmas went and just gave out food to people that were in need. But I don't think you did it for the press. You didn't do it for the accolades or the kudos. You did it because it mattered. Why did it matter?

49:28Damian Hughes: That one mattered to me, that one in particular, because it was in Newham. It was two streets away from my primary school. And when I was in primary school, or in Newham at the time, there was not a lot of people doing those sort of things. And around Christmas, obviously, the cost of living is increasing. It's a bit hard for people. And I want people to have a great Christmas. I always have a back then I always had a great Christmas this Christmas I was in Morocco in a room by myself but usually Christmas obviously you play football there's not but like that element of Christmas being with your family is amazing sometimes people don't have the facilities to have that food to take care so if I can do anything to benefit and help someone's Christmas I'm willing to do so even like in summer when we do that the football tournaments bringing communities together like it's it's such a great feeling just seeing the outcome and seeing how people are just happy to be there

50:20Jake Humphrey: and this might sound a bit of a daft question like or certainly a leap you know when you say that you're in the studio making music and you're with your friends what are the sort of parallels that you see in that environment that you see in the dressing room there's definitely banter

50:36Damian Hughes: there's always banter so like especially with like with the people I hang around like Calvin Ces Emil if you have like a bad touch in training we're letting you know in the changing room if you have a bad lyric in the studio he will let you know so like that banter just being free it don't matter everyone gives 100 % like when I'm in the studio we'll just listen to the beat and we just think oh what are we going to say there's a topic we talk about and we just banter and whatever comes out comes out in football the same thing if we're doing finishing and someone scores a banger with their right foot oh Mil you've done your thing or Seth misses the target like, Sess bro, like, come on man.

51:20Damian Hughes: It's literally that same thing, that same feeling, just having that good vibe all the time.

51:24Jake Humphrey: And what are the killers? So let's flip it on its head. What are the killers that can stop creativity or stop a team performing?

51:34Damian Hughes: I guess like, it can sometimes, in football, like, if you play against a Man City, you know you're not going to have the ball. And you're just like, oh, you go into the game thinking, we're going to have not that much possession sort of thing but we always when we believe we always do well against those sort of teams like unfortunately the first half I don't know recently we played them and we thought we kind of gave them too much respect but the second half we just thought we ain't got nothing to lose now and we played really well and we always ask so why don't we play like that from the beginning so it's just like that belief and it's the same with music we feel like maybe if you don't hear a beat that you like oh I can't go in I've got writer's block I can't think of anything but you actually just have vibes and banter you eventually get to believe that you can do it So I feel like you just have to believe whatever you do.

52:21Damian Hughes: So whether you're playing the Man City, whether you have a tough beat, you just literally have to believe and you'll find a way all the time.

52:26Alex Iwobi: You know what I've really enjoyed about this conversation is that you're someone that gets your energy and you thrive off the company of others. Like if I think about all the things you've spoken about when you're at your happiest, it's when you're surrounded by others. And actually, when you've been at your loneliest and saddest, reading between the lines, it's being in the hotel room in Morocco at Christmas and being stuck in a hotel room when you first signed for Everton and you were lonely. Am I right? Like, being on your own is not your thing.

52:51Damian Hughes: Yeah, I hate being on my own. I mean, sometimes it's nice and healthy, but then I get bored. I'll probably be on FaceTime with someone. I just get, I don't know what to do with myself. Unless like, oh no, I'll go to the gym just to waste time, just to keep myself active. When I get time to think about myself, I'll get bored and start thinking, oh, what am I going to do? I'll start playing Candy Crush. Literally. So, but yeah, I like being surrounded by people because I've always been surrounded by people like in my family, my household my friends it's always been the case and when I'm by myself I think this is boring this is weird

53:20Jake Humphrey: and as somebody like you say your EP is More to Life as somebody approaching 30 so in football in terms you're nearer the end than the beginning what are you starting to think of? yeah wow but what what is More to Life after football for you?

53:37Damian Hughes: good good question well I'm grateful once again to my dad and my family that I've invested so whatever I want to do I can take my sweet time take my sweet time but more to life in the sense where like I'm not just a footballer I am human I like to enjoy the things that other people do as well as well as as well as football so that's where more to life comes from I don't know what I'm going to do after football but music will probably be a part of it as well

54:07Alex Iwobi: and is it nice to sit and have a conversation about being human rather than just sit and be interviewed about football

54:14Damian Hughes: yeah of course because like I'm not just a footballer I like to tell people it's a little thing me and my friends say all the time if someone that doesn't know me asks what I do I always say I'm human what does that mean? then I tell them what I do they're like oh you play football I said well I also do this oh how do you balance it? so like I just say that's why I say to you I'm human so when I have conversation I always say to people I'm human first I think that's so interesting so you are a man

54:41Alex Iwobi: that plays football you're not a footballer no

54:44Damian Hughes: I always say that people will deny it they say you are a footballer

54:47Alex Iwobi: yeah I hear it

54:48Damian Hughes: but I'm human first

54:50Alex Iwobi: wonderful right we've got some quick fire questions to finish with first of all what are the three non-negotiable behaviours the three most important behaviours that you think we should look for in life

55:01Damian Hughes: confidence confidence and belief that is a given otherwise you won't get to anywhere without that I've gathered that I feel like it's very important the people you surround yourself with

55:12Alex Iwobi: yeah

55:12Damian Hughes: very very important because I always say without who I'm with, my family, my friends, I wouldn't be where I am today. It's a tough one, the third one.

55:23Alex Iwobi: Hard work?

55:25Damian Hughes: But everyone says hard work. Yes, it's a pleasure. I mean, you can say hard work. I'll go hard work for safety.

55:31Jake Humphrey: I'll go hard work for safety. Well, I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I was interested when we were researching about your relationship with Saka at Arsenal and you had some interesting observations about him and humility was something that he said stood out yeah because

55:49Damian Hughes: when he was breaking in when he started training the first team you can always he's always had that talent he was very good like 1v1 he would shoot and he would be like be like oh there was always an all moment in training but he was just very raw he wasn't polished but like he wasn't like there were a lot of egos coming through to training and especially like London boys like I'm calling pass me the ball man but he never had that he was always like very humble very chilled and even the way he is now he's the same guy so I remember back then when you said nah this guy's gonna be a player he's definitely gonna be a talent because in training like he was very good but he was also very grounded so what age would he have been?

56:33Damian Hughes: Bukai was like what five years four years younger than me so he'd have been like 17 at the time 17

56:41Jake Humphrey: that's a quick fire question what's the single best piece of advice you've ever received and why

56:47Damian Hughes: express yourself always don't be afraid to express yourself got it from my uncle JJ Koccia and I used to you said it to me once and then I just literally watched how he lived his life and obviously I'm lucky because he's my uncle so I used to see him off the pitch as well as on the pitch I remember one time I went to Bolton training ground and Sam Allardyce serious manager doesn't really joke around like that and he's just dancing and he's coming to kick the ball with me and I think Ivan Campbell Kevin Nolan saying hey hey GG GG and he's just like in his own world and when it's Christmas and we're back home he's just dancing he's just a vibe he was just the definition of express yourself always play football with a smile on your face so when I'm watching when I'm watching him I'm just learning and just saying be yourself so that's where I got it from

57:32Alex Iwobi: nice what is your biggest strength?

57:36Damian Hughes: I would like to say that I'm positive I don't like to think negative if there's a negative thought and something negative happens I go out from my dad just think of a solution straight away don't dwell on the negativity so I feel like that's my best strength your greatest weakness? it used to be listening to like obviously you have to listen to your coaches I'm not saying you shouldn't but it used to listen to my coaches a bit too much in a sense where like Rafa Benitez literally restricted the way I wanted to play so I feel like sometimes I could take it by myself and take the ownership and I'll take a shot sometimes I'll pass the ball who play forward sometimes I listen to him like play negative I feel like listening to the wrong advice sometimes if that's a weakness yeah

58:18Alex Iwobi: what advice would you give to a young Alex just starting out

58:23Damian Hughes: if you want to achieve go for it like believe in yourself there's always going to be people doubting you and saying you're not good enough as long as you believe you're good enough then that's okay

58:34Jake Humphrey: and the final question Alex is what does high performance mean to you? For me,

58:41Damian Hughes: high performance, I've always said it's like, play the way you train, train the way you play and you're going to get the best out of yourself. So, in training, whatever you're doing, you're on high performance, you have to work hard, you have to train hard, you have to almost, like, do whatever it takes to get there. So, in training, I'm doing 100 % and in matches, every day I'm giving 100%. I love that.

59:07Alex Iwobi: Listen, it's been so interesting to sit with a current player who just lifts the veil a little bit on what actually goes on under the skin of football, but also someone who reveals to us that he's so much more than just a footballer. I think all of us are excited to learn more about your music. I think it's a really exciting thing for the future for you. One final question. What does everyone else think when they turn around at goals and see Alex Iwobi playing football?

59:31Damian Hughes: I mean, he can answer it because he's there sometimes, but he's not going to answer it. I try to disguise myself it's obviously a bit of an issue with this hair I normally wear like a snood and I also wear in the summer it's hard it's too hot but I normally wear a balaclava but I remember recently after AFCON I shouldn't have but I didn't waste no time literally I think it was the day two days after the third and fourth place I went to Powerley five-a-side goals with my friends straight away and like the kids are like is that him? is he back already? and then they said what? it would be like when you're at Afcon like a couple days ago what are you doing in Dagenham and I'm like sorry man I just want to play football with my friends they're like nah man that's sick that's sick can we play I'm like nah you can't play it's not my session

1:00:17Jake Humphrey: you can watch you can't play

1:00:19Damian Hughes: they watch for five minutes and then they left

1:00:22Jake Humphrey: I love the idea of you turning up in a balaclava yeah

1:00:26Damian Hughes: all the time especially because it's cold summer's a bit harder

1:00:29Alex Iwobi: what a really fascinating evening for everybody here thank you so much taking the time. And ladies and gentlemen, please put your hands together for Alex Iwobi. Thank you.

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