Alun Wyn Jones: His Relentless Rugby Routine, Family Pride and Stepping Away from the Game (E334)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance App. you want to be remembered well you know i'd be happily remembered as the son of of my father i think high performance if you think you've achieved it you're not high performance high performance doesn't stop that is the voice of wales and lions legend alan win jones look the numbers and the stats tell you that we're having a conversation with a true sporting great the world's most capped rugby player and of course myself jay comfrey and our expert damien hughes will cover all of that We'll talk about his personal sacrifice, why he hates the word culture, his famous speech to his fellow Lions, and how he failed to enjoy his achievements in case they dulled his ambition.

1:06But we go so much deeper, Damien. Well, we do. We talk to the person and not the player. We talk about how the birth of his daughters helped give him a sense of perspective. We speak about carrying the weight of his father's legacy and how that helped define him. And then we speak about the shadows that he's had to navigate his way through as he enters this second chapter of his life. Yeah, look, this is, as I guess is often the case on high performance, not what you'd expect. Alan is a true sporting warrior, but he opens up, as he admits, in a way that he couldn't and wouldn't during his playing career.

1:41And do stick around to the end of today's show, as we've got a short but helpful chat for anyone listening to this who's keen to grow their business overseas. because we've teamed up with the UK Government Department for Business and Trade and their free training programme, the UK Export Academy. And at the end of this episode, I speak to an expert who might just change the game for your business globally. But right now, on with the show as we welcome to high performance, Alan Wynne-Jones.

2:12Alan, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. How do you feel about these kinds of conversations? I think I said earlier, I'll let you know after we finish chatting, but after a little bit of breakout, after the game, probably willing to do a bit more. When I played, I was fiercely protective about myself and the team and what I tried to represent on a personal level. But I think you get to a point, you want to share a bit more and these are opportunities to do it. Talking about sharing a bit more, we want to go back to your upbringing. What do we need to know and understand about your childhood to get a better understanding of the man that you are today?

2:48How long we got? I think when I was a kid coming up, I was a son to a mother who was a teacher from a family of teachers. My father was a solicitor, both with high work ethic, which enabled me to have a lot of opportunity. When I was coming up into sport, I did everything, sailing, football, rugby, you name it. I had a crack at it. So I was very fortunate. Quickly found out that I was too big, too slow, and not as delicate a touch as I needed for football. So rugby was sort of the natural progression. And I didn't really look back probably from about 10, 11 on the rugby side of things. But I'm a big believer as a child, you need access to all sports.

3:40And that's what we try and do with our kids now. To have that foundation of trying lots of things was the opportunity for me to hone down and obviously my sort of biology suited rugby as well and it was a natural fit and I, like I said, didn't look back. So I know you, as you said, you grew up in a house with a fierce work ethic. How did that inform your behaviour and your career? I think on a base level, input versus output. I think if you work hard enough, you can have a nice life and not necessarily quantity of life, but quality of life. Long hours mean something, as long as you get something out at the end of the day.

4:19And again, the provision that I had from my family, parents in particular because of that, sort of showed that, well, if you put it in, you'll get it out. But you have described your dad as a workaholic in many ways, that he was somebody committed to helping people, and when he did that, he was all in with them. Yeah, very much so. I think his manner, as probably people will say, mine at times have been questioned, but I think ultimately if you care, care about what you do, however that manifests itself, sometimes you're going to potentially rub people up the wrong way but ultimately if you care and you have a relatability, then people will understand that in the long run.

5:02When I read about your dad and that almost obsessive nature, I can see elements of that that came through in your own playing career. Yeah, I think the danger is, you know when you have a good deadline that's every Saturday overthinking becomes part and parcel and you know not that I ever think past the next game but you're like well you know again input versus output you're recovering from the last one for the next one while thinking about performance while thinking about prep while thinking about levels and all the granular stuff that goes into that and it's like well when you've got your pre-hab rehab strength and condition mobility, you know, massage, soft tissue, whatever it is, you know, you've got to put all those parts in together.

5:46And I think the recovery element sometimes can be as fatiguing as the training element, because that's what gets you right for the next one. So I was diligent on all those sorts of things. So I tried to cram pack as much as I could into my weeks. But then obviously, you've got to think about those things. I think it got easier at times because you know one of the one of the best things somebody ever said to me is actually you live what you do and if you live it then you don't have to think about it so you know I know I've said I've overthinking and I live it but actually you've still got a structure around your weeks and your prep to that game but it was easier because it was lived, it wasn't difficult but that's where I know I'm flipping but the overthinking comes then because shit I haven't done that even though it's not planned it's my autonomy and i know this is gets confused but i'm like well i haven't done that today so i've got to cram it in the next three hours on that day i don't know whether there's a bit of ocd in it as well um what do you think uh potentially so but i just didn't want to have a backlog or you know get to a saturday and potentially have a bad game you're like shit it's because i didn't do my stretching on tuesday evening or you know should on the sauna on Thursday.

7:02But that's where the drops of questioning, overthinking, and trying to tinker with my weeks around those building blocks that I said. But there's something really powerful there because if you missed it, the only person that knows is you. Yeah. So how important is that honesty? Well, it's funny. I think, you know, after finishing my career now, I think, you know, at times you get critiqued and you get criticized and all the bad things people potentially might say about you. And I'm like, I don't know. At times it potentially affected me. And I'm like, I don't know why I ever let it affect me because I was way more critical on myself than anybody else ever was.

7:45And, you know, it's the old man in the mirror, sort of saying. I'm like, well, I did that for God knows how long. And it's just probably only because I've come out of the bubble that I've actually realized I was way more harsh on myself and held myself to account more than anyone else ever did. So with that hindsight and with this separation now that you've retired, would you take us back to the mindset of Alan as a professional and give us an example of how hard you were on yourself? What was your thought pattern? You know, it sounds cliché. Complacency was my biggest fear. It's like, you know, there's no such thing as satisfaction.

8:25it was always I wanted to win a World Cup I wanted to win a European Cup I never did that the question is is it harder to do it in a region in Wales rather than go somewhere in France I don't know but I never did that those are the aims and yeah I probably could have gone other teams and got closer to those things got closer to Wales in the World Cups but it was a fear of complacency or comfortable not having satisfaction whichever way you look at it i think well there's always someone behind you there's always going to be someone bigger faster better and i'm like well you know it's almost come full circle now the thing about takes no talent i'm like well well i think working hard isn't a talent do you know what i mean well that is a talent if your ability to work hard or to a point because you can obviously get burnout and all those things.

9:19But actually, if you can work harder than the next person, that is a talent. That is the ultimate talent because, you know, it gives you the ability to learn or work on anything.

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11:14can I just ask you then about working hard and I think it's really important that we actually explain what that looked like for you because for someone listening to this their idea of hard work will be different to yours and yours is different to someone else's so when we say, when you say I worked hard, can you put some meat on the bones for us and explain what that actually looked like in a real base level, we used to do a lot of fitness as you can imagine and like I used to say, I remember I used to George North would be doing running sessions and stuff i'm like going flat out and i didn't really have good pacing like i say i was like come on you can only die once and obviously you're gonna die once in life but you can only blow up once in a training session and he looked at me one day and he's like you dead yet i'm like yep and it was like and i was always the way because a test level rugby is a running game of wrestling with all the other skill elements and i was like well i've got to be able to get there to to go through this knowing that we're gonna have another one tomorrow day off and then we're going to do the same on Thursday, Friday.

12:09So I'm like, well, you know, I'd rather go balls to the wall as quick as I can and try and stay on that red line. And then if I fall off, I know I've given everything and we go again. Like my younger days, there were a few messy sessions where like breakfast would come up and, you know, those sorts of things. But that was feedback, even though it's, you know, not particularly pretty. That was the feedback. Being sick on the training field was feedback. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it wasn't necessarily pleasurable, but I know I would have gone hard. And again, I think that was probably more so when I was younger because I was pushing it.

12:43So tell us about your attitude to, you know, like if you're doing 10, 50-meter runs, the guys that will sort of cruise for the first day and then the last two, they'll turn it on. Yeah. Well, the funny thing is, it depends. I think there'll be one or two of those in every team. And the ultimate thing for that, sometimes you, I think it changed when I was younger, you wouldn't need to say anything because you know that they know. As you get a bit older, you know, the big stick or whatever, and there's ways of doing it. You don't necessarily have to be aggro or it could just be letting someone know it finished well today.

13:24You know, and that's the ultimate thing. When you go to the elite level, people know and you don't need to say anything. as long as they know that you know, then you don't necessarily need to say anything. But how did you perceive them? What was it that offended you? I wasn't offended at all. I would be more disappointed for them that they're not... And it's not about keeping up with me or doing better than me. It's like, do best for yourself. Do best for the team. There comes a point. For me, the disappointing thing is that I never wanted to be the best player in the world or anything like that, but I wanted to be in the best team.

14:00you can't I don't think you can have a mindset of being the best individual in a team sport how do you get the team then to be the best they can be because I think a lot of people assume to get the team to be the best you be the best you can be and that's therefore leading by example but it sounds like you maybe have a different approach no no I completely agree with that I think leading by example but try and do it your way you know squeeze every last drop out of you you don't have to follow me you don't have to blow up like me you don't have to do the extras as long as you're doing everything that you need to do for you because that's what I did learn when I came through.

14:31You'd have a lot of sessions where you have similar sessions, really, in lifting and running, but the game is far more specific than that. Body shapes are different. People's abilities are different. You might need something that I don't. I might need something that you don't. And I think that's really important that you've got to be able, again, if you're at your ability to live it, tailor it to yourself. Don't copy anyone else. and going again full circle, as long as the work ethic's there, then you can achieve whatever you want to achieve. So you said a bit earlier that you were diligent, right?

15:06Were you diligent or were you obsessive?

15:13Well, obsessive, potentially so. I think I was very fortunate. I had a bit of success early on at a regional level and the players I played around. And then obviously in 08, was the first Grand Slam after being capped in 06. And I was very fortunate that I was around a lot of senior players. They probably sped up my progression. But to have success early on and realise, well, actually, I'm this age, if I do this much more work, what can I get to? And all those things that go around it, the granular stuff in between the building blocks, the recovery and all that sort of stuff, then there's a formula that I can fall into or create for me to keep going.

15:51When you look back on those early days, is there a behaviour or something that you can tell us where you were doing more even at the very beginning as a young guy? Yeah, I remember when I was playing school boys and like I think it was under 15s and we were doing some like running drill and I remember the coach saying if you want to get into Wales under 16s you can't be last and it was like that, I was like I want to play for Wales under 16s and like you go and then did all right in the run played for wheels in the 16s and then it was a sort of oh i can i can do this at another level and then that summer i was carrying a bit of timber i bought my own saq ladders um not that i've had much speed agility and quickness um but like dropped a load of weight that year and then started realizing that actually there's more i can do away from you know the team training sessions and um the the saturday games and i started dripping in those things um you know i think I did a summer on noodles just to try and, you know, the whole diet thing, the old very early days of making your own isotonics with squash, salt and water, thinking I was like, I was getting there.

17:03And that's how it starts. And it's like, before you move into the world of supplements and, you know, training programs. So I was always, you know, trying to, you know, well, from that point on, really, you know, find my own, my own, not niche, that's the wrong word, but my own formula, like I said earlier. You got that success. You played for Wales in 06. You're coming in at a young age. And there's a lot of people that maybe would plateau there or maybe get complacent and thinking this is easy. And I think one of the great traits that I see in you is that you avoided the complacency trap. And I'm interested in how you did that.

17:41If you're given opportunity, you've got to take it. and I think again I don't know whether I was as harsh on myself back there I was very conscious about input and output obviously because of my family I did Wales 18s, 19s, 21s so I went through the I was a product of the system so I was very fortunate that there was facilitation there and opportunity and I was like well I've got all this opportunity to people and a channel well if I just work hard and hard enough at each level to stay in the system And then, you know, that's just what it was. I don't necessarily think there was a magic moment, but I could see a route.

18:20And I think that was the main thing. I could see a route that if I work hard, I get that next one and then the next one and try and develop myself in the game along the way. How have you made hard work so simple when for so many people it is such a difficult thing? Well, the caveat to that is sometimes I've made simple hard work as well because that's the flip side. You know, potentially training too much or a long time doing one thing and not enough doing the other thing. I don't know. I think every time, particularly as I got my first academy, then pro contract, and I didn't realize it again, probably till very late on, I'd invested in myself.

19:01So when I got a contract, I got injured. I'd buy a new piece of kit that I needed for that injury. And credit was my mum and dad, really, because even when I was going away on school boys trips or weekends, I'd have my own first aid kit just so I didn't need to go to anyone. So I became quite self-sufficient early on. And it wasn't extensive. It was like a few plasters, a bit of tape. And it was like I had my kit to be prepared for that. So when I got to the pro level, I was like, well, keep reinvesting in yourself, whether it was a piece of gear, whether it was yoga or whatever. I was like, well, if you put that investment, whether it's time, money, I'm a big believer it's better to have and not need the need to not have particularly my pro period of my career served me hugely well And what was the reaction in the dressing room when you started going into the professional ranks?

19:54I think I probably there were a few raised eyebrows because you know when I played for Swansea in the premiership I was I'd sprint from you know one one drill to another and that didn't change for a long time and people, why are you doing it? Well, why not? You know, it was extra fitness to me. It was like, it was a demonstration. I'm here, I want to train. Yeah, so, and as I got in, I started investing. I was buying stretch bands and like massage sticks. I'm like, oh, what are you using that for? You know, I'm like, I was just helping my calves or whatever. And I go out five minutes, come back in.

20:29Oh, working on the calves, is it? You know what I mean? So there's a few guys that started to buy in and they're like, oh, actually. Yeah, so I don't know. I think I was comfortable being present, shall we say. But you were also comfortable being something of an outlier, to be going in at a young age doing things that the seasoned pros are not doing. That does take some balls or some confidence. I don't necessarily. I think it was what I felt I needed. But that in itself takes bravery. Not to go, well, I need it, but I'll do it in front of everyone. I'll do it quietly when they've all left the room.

21:03No, but I never feared that. I never feared that. I think, again, it was being comfortable in, you know, showing investment in itself, showing that I was trying to squeeze every last drop or find something that would prepare me better. And all of this led to the moment where you were able to say that you're an international rugby player playing for Wales. And when you walk into the Wales dressing room, there's the quote on the wall, how do you want to be remembered? Yeah, well, I think my first cap, though, was in Patagonia in 06. and the one thing I loved about that was when you take the field, before that day, you haven't got a number.

21:42And then when you get that first cap, you become, I was 10-4-6, so the 1 ,046th player that played for Wales in 130 years. It's a small number in the period of time. So I think that was the, I don't know whether it's a seminal moment in the fact that I've got my number amongst all these greats of the game. And it was weird because you're just Alan Wynne-Jones, plays for a region, came through the academy system. Then, you know, after those 80 minutes, your Alan Wynne-Jones 10-4-6 capped for your country. How did that feel? I can feel it now. Yeah, I think it's funny, all those little bits. But then all those little bits are like added up into that moment.

22:29And then I'm like, well, it's time to go again now. you know i i think i would have given anything to have two um just to make sure it wasn't a dream on the first one i really don't know because how can you describe some of the the the things that you've worked for the things i don't want to say dream because i don't actually think i ever played um sorry i don't think i ever thought about dreaming to to play for wales because i always saw that as you know playing for your country is massive seeing the guys on the tv and and i just played as a kid even though i'd gone through the system um you know and i'm a bit it sounds a bit stark but i was only ever a under 16 18 19 21 cap for my country not a professional national team player and i think there's there's an important difference there because then you don't necessarily arrive because there's still more to achieve but that is the start of a next phase which is very different.

23:26Can you try and explain how it felt? I'm so interested by this. I mean, how many years ago is this? 304 now. It wasn't in black and white before anyone says either. It's nearly 20 years, but you can still feel that, right? Yeah, but, and this is the thing, I think, my wife will definitely say I still haven't grown up, but I think, you know, for a lot of my, well, all of my career, I was still the boy that wanted to play rugby. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that. I enjoyed the game. Some of the best rugby I ever played was in my school days in the schoolyard. And that sounds ridiculous.

24:02But, you know, I was able to get glimmers of that throughout my professional career. And I always, always had that love of the game as deep down as a child as well. I really don't know how to describe it. I think, and I don't want to put on too much of a pedestal. I think other people understand who've achieved something. Why does it make you feel emotional, though, when you think about it? Well, my family. My family were there. My grandparents, my sister. And the funny thing is, my kids weren't born then, so you never look forward, but when you look back and you piece your life together and the things they've been a part of, the people that have left, the people that have come into it, it all gets brought to the surface, which is important as well.

24:48So as a son of a history teacher, did you allow yourself on, like once you got that first number, to reflect on where it fitted within your own history? Yeah, well, my father and grandfather played rugby and, you know, we'd have many a Sunday with the VHS and let's watch that try. And it was Gareth Edwards going over in the corner and, you know, obviously the great stories of the 70s. and they were obviously avid rugby fans, followed Swansea for a long, long time. So rugby was in the family anyway. But...

25:28Oh, you're not going to get me. To be the son of, you know, the only son of a family and play for your country and say, well, you're not representing yourself, you're representing your family ultimately. And when you have your own kids and you look back, that's you know I think any any man will will tell you that and you know I think when you look at it forward you look at it backwards I don't know which is easier or harder but definitely looking back raises some huge amounts of pride representing them and your dad was there? no he wasn't they couldn't make it out but again because I was the first capper going out there I thought I was just going for experience so I thought I was just going to go out maybe sneak on a bench in the second test and for showing the age now we went out there and they named the squad for the first test and they had the old it was an OHP so it was written on OHP sliding the screen it was like being a science lesson you know double science on a Thursday but it was like it goes up on myself and Ian Evans I haven't heard someone say the word the OHP I know I was the it was not filament do you remember that?

26:32yeah yeah it was not filament laminate yeah yeah I remember it I remember it it was an OHP it was like we're flipping out we had double biology but yeah it was slid in myself and Ian Evans Ian obviously got capped at five and I got capped at six and yeah that was the first one so you had to did you ring home and tell them yeah it was a it was a strange conversation I don't remember it I was like I'm playing in the first game one of those ones it was like oh okay but yeah I think again no expectation to go out because I was still new on the scene I'd been playing pro level for about a yeah just under over a year.

27:10So it was a pretty quick rise. I wonder how much of this was about making your parents proud and how much it was making yourself proud. I think it was hugely, hugely about making my parents proud. And I do think even then I realised, you know, their investment in me, the opportunity, the taxiing, the food, the washing, lots of washing. and all that sort of stuff. And, you know, your children are an extension of you and, you know, I was representing them, like I said earlier, I think, and particularly now having my own kids. You know, it's definitely, definitely given me more perspective on all of that.

27:57So, you know when your kids are born, I don't know whether you had the same feeling, but your kids are born and suddenly you go, oh, that's how much my parents loved me. Yes. Now I know what love's about. Yeah. And it sounds to me from the things you're saying that you loved your parents and you understood what they'd done for you on a kind of base term, but you're focusing on your rugby career. And I wonder whether the day that your girls were born, you're like, you finally realized actually what it was about. I had this conversation with a few friends many a time, if I'm honest. This is a really morbid, they say like your life flashes before you when you die or when you're in peril.

28:33I think as soon as you had kids, you know, the first, well I'd say first, second and third it's all like everything comes whizzing back and you're like remember that, remember that trip, remember they did that for me and we took that, it took that long or you know it was like when I was ill and they looked after me then and it all comes whizzing back. It is, it is bizarre, it's almost like having a child is almost like having a time machine because you automatically remember key moments and things that, not in detail but you remember the effort or you can suddenly realise the effort that has been put into you to get you where you are.

29:07And your dad's not with us anymore. Did you make the effort to tell him that you finally understood and you appreciated it? Probably not. I think my mum used to describe it as young goats and old goats. We'd butt heads at a certain time like any healthy relationship with her parents. But I hope he's proud. It's funny, it's like a lot of things I've achieved since he's passed. I'm like, he got a lot of good bits, but he didn't see me captain of the Lions, didn't see me captain Wales or us win the Grand Slam in 19. But my kids did. So, you know, you can't be too selfish on the people you get to see and the memories that they have.

29:50But I hope he's proud. I think he definitely told me in his own way. Well, I hope he is, like I say. How did he tell you in his own way? I just think it was the critique. The critique was always healthy, but I think sometimes the shorter sentences are the ones you're good game today. It doesn't have to be a lot. And it wasn't the male thing about not showing emotion or anything like that. That was just my dad. And sometimes that's all you need. What was the first time you said it that you remember?

30:36Oh, I can't remember a specific time, but definitely it would have been a bit in the younger days probably. You know, I probably had a lot more than I remember. Again, this is one of the downsides of being relatively focused, selfish, independent, obsessive, if you want to call it that, or driven at a young age. You potentially push people away as well, which isn't healthy but you know they made me so I can't blame them but you know they made me in all all the right ways I think but I remember it like probably around the school boys 11s 15s and then you know every and some of them would have been well done got selected you know good game 18s next year and it was always the you know the pathway or that little

31:29positive comment, but always knowing there's more. You know, always knowing more if you want it and if you're prepared to work for it. And you didn't have to say it or be, you know, a great orator about it, but you could feel it. And I, you know, I did and hopefully, well, I'm sure it was meant that way. Can I pick up the word that you've used a few times in the last few minutes? I'm terrible for a repeat myself. No, no. By the way, this is brilliant. You're too harsh on yourself still. It's really, yeah. And I can see it gets you as well having these sorts of conversations. It's quite difficult, right?

32:04Well, the thing is, I think one of the best things I saw about grief was if you draw a little, and it's not mine, I think it might have been social media, if you draw a little circle on a page and then you draw a big circle around it and then as time goes on, if that's life, life gets bigger, but the circle stays the same so grief never lessens or gets anything. but life gets bigger and then you get the guilt thing thinking about am I forgetting about it am I letting it go and it's like well actually it never changes but you just question how you continue to deal with it because the rest of your life gets bigger but you said you still speak to your dad every day well I think I think what I said in relation to dad I think for all the opportunities I I had to chat with him I probably speak to him more about rugby than I ever did there because I was like for all the positive stuff if it was a bad game or questions I'd be like I'll do the review with the team or whatever and again that's the negative side of being driven and I was I probably wasn't it was easier when I was a kid that if I had a bad game I'd try and leave it or I'd go and train it out of myself or whatever but then with kids then you've got to be better at that because they come to you more than you can get away if that makes obviously everybody knows that but yeah I probably when he's gone I probably spoke to more about rugby and all those sorts of things and, you know, bits and bobs and life in general than I ever did, which is, you know, a sad omission on my part.

33:37But I suppose things can, things get quick and move fast. And before you know it, you've lost those opportunities. You wrote a bit in your book that really resonated with me, the way you spoke about sometimes you have days where you feel guilty that you haven't, when you remember that you haven't remembered yeah yeah yeah it's like and i think that was definitely early on because it was still raw you know it's coming up to 10 years in well yeah in in a bit so it's scary then when you look back and you know i'll never forget him and the kids know all about um who he was what he did well when they listen um and i'll and i'll you know continue that and you know you we talk about legacy and how you want to be remembered well you know i'd be happily remembered as the the son of of my father on your dad's headstone it says um in loving memory of timothy gilbert jones yeah and when the final whistle blows it's not who's won and lost but how the game was played yeah how did your dad play the good research that is who do you know in mumbles that is very good research.

34:45How did your dad play the game? Well, actually, of life or rugby? I've seen a lot, obviously didn't see him play, but saw a lot of photos. I think he was an eight. Yeah, he was an eight. He was quicker than me, and so he told me anyway. More skilful. Better looking. But no, yeah, from what I understand, he was a quick eight, dynamic, you know, tells me decent skills. so I definitely want to believe all that so yeah

35:24you didn't tell me this was going to be an emotional one yeah I'm actually so pleased you've retired because I think oh thanks he's an Englishman yeah because I'm an Englishman no the truth is I'm pleased you've retired because if you were sitting here having a conversation with us and you hadn't I think this conversation will be very, very different. I've spent my career not like you as an elite individual, but around elite individuals in various different sports. And the recurring theme that I've heard from players and performers over and over again is this inability to enjoy the moment, this inability to reward themselves while they were doing it right.

36:03You know, I hear you talking about not really telling your dad when you were young, quite what they did for you, or even appreciating what they did for you and pushing them away because the only way for you to be successful was to not get emotional about what they'd done for you. And then when you started in your career, not putting up the jerseys, buying a new house and pushing yourself in the gym to be able to cope with that. And this is a really interesting thing to talk about because you've really got two choices. You can either sit here and go, I really enjoyed every minute of it. And I told my parents how I felt and I was really sort of emotionally connected to them and I save it every moment, right?

36:41But how do you know that you would have been as successful as you if you had? It almost feels like that's the price you have to pay to go to the places that you went, you know? I always say hindsight's never won a game or lost a game either. I think the gratitude piece is the one for me with my family, particularly my parents, because that's the biggest comparison I've got now, probably more so than my career because I've got my kids. but the funny thing is I don't expect my kids to say thanks all the time or whatever or understand what a parent does what they do for them but I think as you get older you wish you could have as your younger self but I'd like to think that they were as proud of me even though I probably didn't bring them along on the journey as much as I should have or let them in at times I'm sure they understood yeah if it was one of your children you'd understand right Well, exactly, and that's my point about saying, if they don't say thanks or whatever.

37:38That's why, you know, I don't potentially, I haven't endeared myself to a lot of people at certain times, but my appreciation and gratitude is always there. Always there. You know, people might say it's not, but it is. It is. I think appreciation is much greater than a thanks. Way more. Way more. I think thanks is a common respectful response, But if you truly appreciate someone, I think that's a lot deeper than just saying thanks. So can we explore that idea then against the inherent selfishness that a career like yours demands? How have you managed to come out of this, you know, being married to Anne when having two lovely young daughters?

38:24Well, you know, every household needs a good line manager and she's mine. but no obviously Anne's background was athletics so she gets the whole the the training mentality and you know goal setting training recovery all that sort of stuff and I'm just very fortunate that she understood I was going to say allowed probably is allowed no but understood allowed facilitated you know the times that you know I can't come if I'm going to the park because I've got to train tomorrow or we're going on a long walk or can't do that night away because I'm going to be there or I'm going to Six Nations camp and I'm going to be in Cardiff, which is only 40 minutes away.

39:06Oh, well, you stay up there, recover and, you know, get your sleep rather than come back with the kids. And I'm very fortunate that I had a wife that understood what goes into it, obviously from her experiences. And a lot of my success, particularly since we've been together, is down to her from that understanding. You've said in the past that you don't necessarily believe in luck because you make your own luck with circumstances. And when you were first, heard of Anwen. I was interested in the preparation that you did. What did you tell us? No, you've definitely read the book, haven't you? I loved it.

39:38You want to go on the Google search, you? It's a great book. Yeah, so it's not quite an arranged marriage, but my father and her father played rugby together a long time ago, and An's dad was a client then when my dad became a solicitor, and he bumped into her in 07 in the World Cup, or bumped into them and they were like, oh, okay, I saw John and Anwen and, oh, okay, she's an athlete. So I did a quick Google search just to check up on her times. You know, it's all about due diligence and preparation. Fast forward 10 years and, or 10 years marriage and three kids and. Why were you looking at the times?

40:21Why was that significant? Well, I think it's the sportsman in me. I think if someone's an athlete or someone's a broadcaster, So whatever it may be, you want to know experience, you know, achievements. I didn't do that to everyone. But again, because my dad knew John and played rugby with him, knew a little bit about the family. I thought, well, you know, if someone says you someone's good, you want to know how good. So, but yeah, I can't believe you asked me about that. But then what has she done, though, to help you become more rounded, to be able to enjoy moments when you're in them rather than like stow them away or believe that to relax is to be complacent?

41:05I think it's because the understanding of the athletic side and the commitment it takes. And I think sometimes you need a second pair of eyes to pull you away from yourself or pull you away from the core. Because as much as you can train, as much as you want, that can be a downfall as well. Because whether you've got the fitness element, the mental fatigue of continually think about it be on top of yourself sometimes you need someone to rip you off whatever you're working on otherwise you know you can you whether it's mental fatigue chronic fatigue you know just general can you give us an example of when she's done that oh i think i did have i did have a phase where i was playing a lot training a lot and i was talking to her i know it sounds stupid but the ball feeling different in my hands and it was like it was literally just because i was so tired and it was a case of probably it was the one time I've ever asked if I nearly had done it once and I need a break and I asked the question and I ended up being on the bench anyway but it was I probably wouldn't have done that if it wasn't Anwin saying do you really you know think you need to to go again I did anyway but it's the fact that someone was able to say it was okay to ask the question because it was you know load management game management when you're looking down another season having gone a few back to back so it's just the fact of saying it's okay to ask the question you don't have to be vociferous your delivery and context can be fair but you're in your rights to ask that question If you're still overpaying for wireless it's time to say yes to saying no At Mint Mobile their favourite word is no No contracts, no monthly bills no overages, no hidden fees no BS I made the switch because I was tired of those ridiculous bills and sneaky charges from my old provider.

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44:40She has to use a very different skill set, though, to help you after retirement. Yeah. so how was how has she done that well you know I've been in the house more obviously cluttering up the place eating all the food making a mess so I think I've had to learn to live again being around more I think you know I think I don't know whether they've had to adapt more to me being around or me being around back there I think I think she foresaw a lot more of the the complicated elements of me being around more and finishing the game you know just from a logistical point of view being there but also you know There is a psychological element to it as well.

45:18Getting up to speed on the routines and all that sort of stuff.

45:25Trying not to ask too many questions, which I did in the first three months. And saying, you know, can I have a day sheet? It's just so we know what we're doing. Because I used to live by day sheets. Can I do this? Can I do that? Did you genuinely ask for a day sheet for your home life? I've asked for day sheets throughout my career. we used to go on holiday and I'd be like what's for breakfast? you haven't done a day sheet and I'm like and then we'd have breakfast and what's for lunch? you're like will you stop asking we're on holiday will you stop asking I'm like I've got to keep the nutrition up but yeah she likes telling that one but it's just when it's again when you're in camp and it's formulaic told what to eat told what to wear you know you thread in your stuff around it as well but like it's very you know you do get very institutionalized than I'm sure many people have said.

46:15And it gets easier in a way. So when you come out of that and all of a sudden it's like, here's life again. You're like, okay, now that's a jigsaw puzzle with no picture on it, if that makes sense. Tell us a bit about that jigsaw puzzle and particularly the psychological challenges of ending a top flight sports career. I think I probably underestimated it if I'm honest. I didn't, you know, I think I need a bit of space. I haven't quite been hiding in a cave and run out of paint on the walls, or walls for the paint, rather. But I think I need a bit of space. I think it's been a... The easiest way to, I suppose, explain it from my eyes is it's been a quick 20 years and a long 12 months, just because, you know, some of the simple things I thought would have been normal to just carry on, and then, you know, people go on about purpose.

47:07I know my purpose is my purpose is my kids, but for me to channel my energy, gee, that was the one and gained direction. A lot of the stereotypical things that I heard about and thought, oh, I'll be okay. But no, I think the mapping out of it and finding my way has probably taken me more than I thought. And the funny thing is, it's not a case of time's a healer and it'll fall into plan. I'm just like, oh, you will find your route. And if it takes you longer than you expected, that's okay. And I think I'm more comfortable with that now than I was when I first finished because I expected to find my lane, get into it and then just carry on and that would be fine.

47:49But then the funny thing is, and Anwen is a good bench practice, had I found a nine till five, I would have been questioning whether there were other things I could have done. So I needed to go through that sort of exploration piece, which has actually been healthier than had I probably locked in for the next 10, 15 years into something I potentially couldn't have enjoyed. I heard you say on another interview there's been shadows over the last few months how would you describe those to us I just think it's like life I think I'm in a very good position coming out of one career and I've got an opportunity rather than a challenge and that's what I couldn't change my mind shift from this is an opportunity to choose what you want to do for the rest of your life which I did in my first career because as a sportsman you retire twice really that's what people tell you but it's one career it's just your job changes so you know i'm i'm a bit vociferous in the fact of it's career evolution not career change because your skill sets are really transferable and then people go what are you going to do then you're like well give me a bit of time to map that out it's been probably more challenging than i thought and the shadows are the questions about direction and um am i doing too much of this or enough of that should i be doing this can i trust that person you know is that opportunity worth it and again uh because my character and potentially being overly protective at times um which which i think in in for most part was healthy for my my career probably not necessarily so in the post-career life because there are more options you can have i think as long as you are comfortable um to go down a few loose settings then you know you can get it back it's okay to take your time i'm not saying i want to be in the position I was for three or four years because I don't think that would be healthy either but I'm like it's okay to take your time but I do think as soon as you finish like the number of times I was asked what are you doing now what are you doing now what are you doing now there's that expectation that you're doing something and if you're not you should and again you I've got to be careful I can't let time eke away on me but I think that external and intentional pressure if you like because you're perceived as a high achiever so you should fall straight into something The next is the shit, I'm not doing anything.

50:08And another person's asked, another person's asked. And then you slowly, you know, create your own shadows. And is there anything that surprised you in the civilian world? Oh, anything that surprised me? Saturdays. You know, Easter is such a big holiday. Bank holidays, you get some of them now as well. And it's funny, all those things that back in the day when I was playing, you're like, why is everyone making a fuss of Easter? Easter's a big holiday, you know, and bank holidays, people can do things and it was one of the guys used to play with Brad Davis the hardest thing we're ever going to have to do when we finish is what to do on a weekend like we used to talk about what we're going to do and whatever and we just forgot that we've got kids and then you know your weekends are sorted for the rest of you well at least the next 15 years but so that's the biggest thing and I think it's the time time is a crazy metric what do you miss the most?

51:06Ah, do you know how this answer, rightly or wrongly, so it depends who I speak to. If I think you understand, it'll be everything and nothing. Because I miss everything, the people, the routine, the feedback from losses, wins, you know, the pain. And then the nothingness is because I get more time with the family. It's a two-pronged answer, but everything and nothing because it gave me, I wouldn't be here if I hadn't done what I did there and the highs and lows. but then I've got three beautiful kids, a wife, and I get to make the most of them and I get to hopefully be the best dad to them and husband, like I say.

51:45Let's talk then a bit about the everything, about life in rugby, in those cultures. How do you define culture? I hate the word culture. I can't stand the word culture. Why? I think if you've got a good environment, then the culture takes care of itself. you know and i completely understand the word culture and but it's a tag if you go into the best environments you don't need to ask what the culture is because it's the people it's the facilitation the behaviors the behaviors and ultimately you feel it you know you can go somewhere whether it's open expansive willing to be challenged or whether it's hard working you know stay in your lane get on with the job the best environments have the best cultures because you to ask what it is.

52:30So what then were the keys to the best environments that you played and that had those best cultures? I think the people of willingness to work hard. I know that comes back, but that was what was instilled, really. I think it was different from club to international. International. I know how it started, really, when obviously Gats came in in 08 and you stripped it back and it was a case of work hard, the facilitate the environment, give you everything you need as long as you work hard. And that's what a lot of our success was born off. and then I think at club level because it was more of my learning years it was the openness and again there was a stick at times but then there was people to lean on and ask questions and I always say this you need coaches in every environment but as a player I learned probably a lot more of the players I was playing with than I did on the coaches because you see what they do, how they do and you might do some bits, you might not but you can see how they prepare, interact with each other how they play how they review all those sorts of things.

53:32And if you can take a little snippet off everyone, then that's going to add to your bucket. So what are the things that you've seen then that can undermine a healthy environment? I think the biggest one is lack of challenge because I think that's consistent. When you're younger, you need to upskill yourself and learn. You go through that sort of middle element of your career, which you still hone your skills. But I think if you want to keep your senior guys, they still want to be challenged and the opportunity to challenge. And I think it's a two-way thing. If you can't facilitate that in a healthy way, then I don't think it works.

54:14So I think it's different for the demographic of the playing group, but challenge is a consistent throughout. What advice would you give people about having difficult conversations? Well, if you don't have it, it's only going to get worse. you know ultimately yeah i i think there is a there's a skill element to it as well what is the skill what is the skill i think it's it's delivery i think if you can make whoever you're talking to realize that's for the good of the entity or the organization and the individual and that we're in this together but yeah that's if that can be conveyed in that conversation then it's not a challenge it's for the betterment of the environment see i think one thing that's very interesting about, let's call it civilian life, right, compared to elite sporting life, is that you don't have to get on with everyone.

55:01And I think in our world, in a culture, everyone feels like they do. As soon as two people don't get on, it feels like this big thing. You've got to solve it. You've got to get them working together. Or one of them has to leave. Whereas as soon as I started speaking to people in sport about this, they were like, I know there was players I hated talking to. I couldn't stand them as individuals, but it didn't impact us on a professional sense. In some ways, it was actually quite great. Would you explain times when maybe you've had issues, what's caused them and how you've dealt with them to make them not derail things?

55:34Well, that's the thing. I think if you go into any environment and everyone's smiling and everyone's getting on, there's something wrong. I completely agree. Yeah, I don't think it's not healthy because not everyone gets on all the time. I think one of the big, big one is sometimes, and I wasn't great at it at the time, sometimes frustration can come out. Right. You can be shouty, you can be a bit harsh. And I think I probably was, early on in my career, I was probably, you know, I was a captain, I was a bull in a china shop. But I think as you get on, you've got to realise that these are people's sons, brothers, husbands.

56:04And the big thing about sport, you're going to make a mistake one day. And would you expect it to be treated the same way? And that's what I did learn. I tried to mature with that. And having kids changed my perspective on that big time. So can I ask you about a mistake then? Do you remember that game against England where you got yellow carded? but then Gatlin came out in the press afterwards and he didn't spare you. He said, you know, if that hadn't happened, we could have actually won. It was a three-point game. How did you deal with that obvious ever you made? You know, obviously what was said was said but I think I was more disappointed in myself and irrelevant at what's said by Gat.

56:46But I think it was the whole thing around that, the media and an interview I did after that. I said this on something else actually, probably gave me a massive learning curve on test level sport, even though I was like four years in by then. And like the consequence of, you know, something which was dumb, shouldn't have done it. Tried to convince Aloran Land it was cramped, but he's better than that. But no, but that was one of the things that probably made me even more so protective of myself. And, you know, I tried, probably didn't need to, with the team and the environment because if you make a mistake, particularly, and, you know, it was a dumb one anyway, but, you know, people are going to come for you.

57:31And that's fine. And that was a stark learning curve and that, and in a way, it's a compliment because I didn't think I was that good anyway. What was your relationship like with Warren Gatlin? I'm grateful for the opportunities I had and I made sure that I always tried to show that I accepted that the way I played and the effort I put in, not just in games and training. And I understood, you know, again, the whole takes no talent thing I could subscribe to. I could work hard and that was my talent for all intense purposes. You know, and I'm like a lot of players. He was loyal on selection. And a couple of times when we had bad performance, you'd get selected again.

58:12You have to answer the question. And yeah, I was able to do that for large parts of my career. And do you need to be close with a coach like that? Do you need like a, not necessarily a father-son relationship, but a real, a bond? No, I don't think so. I think relatability is a hard thing to achieve. But obviously he had the experience coming in. Obviously he'd done well with Wasps, done Ireland. So I think he was the right person at the right time for the group of players that we had off the back of 07 and obviously being knocked out of the Rugby World Cup. and it was night and day, that mentality that was brought in from what we had and what we needed.

58:54We needed the clarity and needed to be simple. The game plan we had was relatively simple, got us an element of success. We were expansive, potentially could have had more with the player group we had. But you look what we achieved in that period of time, going from an 07 World Cup where we hadn't got out of the pool stages. It was a huge difference. And it was stripped back, work hard, numbers high, decent kicking game, and off we go. And, you know, you marry that in Sean Edwards, who's like... What was it Sean Edwards said when he came in? He gave me two words something. Yeah, it was the first time we met.

59:33I can try the accent, but I don't know. I've said it a few times, but it was like, we came in and we're like, oh, Gats has done a story. Okay, yeah, you know, pretty switched on. and then Sean comes in and defences about two things. Legalised violence. In his accent, so you can imagine. Legalised violence. A bit deeper than that. But it was a pin drop moment and everyone was like, okay, we know where we're going with this. And, you know, it was meeting one, minute one, stall set. For his character and demeanour, Sean cares a lot about what he does and the players he does it with and for. and I think we had one chat once, he's like, I need to prepare you the best I can.

1:00:16If I could do it for you, I'd be out there with you in the line. So I need to make sure that you know and you're best prepared for what you do. Again, there might have been a few expletives in that to make it a bit more colorful. But, you know, you could understand that. His application, picking up people, you know, all that sort of stuff. He was on the field with you and it's, you know, there's not many other coaches I can say really can achieve that. Talking of communication, I want to play you a clip that I'm sure you've watched many, many times. Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm watching it again. Which one's this now?

1:00:47I just want to talk to you about... about communication off the back of this. Oh, God, what's this now? Oh, that's what I'm doing.

1:00:58Yeah? Every facet of the game. And the final thing. Farsher, there's no tomorrow after today. There is. There's a tomorrow. There's one with this jersey, and it'll remain on you till you've finished playing, until you've died. From today. And there's a tomorrow without the jersey. We've got 18 minutes to choose which one we want. Let's go. Oh, that feels like he's in black and white. What's that, 2013? So 11 years? Yeah, it was interesting, obviously. I think it was fourth choice getting selected as captain. really after the other candidate's been injured or not involved. It's an interesting one sitting here talking about it, even now, you know, being asked over breakfast, do you want to captain the Lions in a deciding test in Australia?

1:01:51I was like, okay, if you want me to be. It was probably a bit more shock in my voice than that, but yeah, it went pretty well. and I'd featured in quite a few of the games first two tests and that was that was a special special day that one Faz set the tone for that because he said there is no tomorrow and I was like I remember my head fizzing in the meeting I was like on the edge of my seat I was like no there is because we've got to go home on Sunday, Monday and it's going to be with a W or with an L and I'm like there's obviously eventually there's no tomorrow but there was for us and for however long the majority of us carried on playing and I'm like you know it just sparked something inside that well you know and I found out of 21 we we lost obviously in 21 and you know obviously fans couldn't go out because of COVID and stuff and it'll be you know there's a tour that was like remembered but not remembered if that makes sense so I was like I wanted to be sure that we were and guys know anyway but sometimes again being captain obviously the first half sometimes you do need to spell stuff out and I wanted to make sure that they knew how I felt about that game and in credit to everybody involved in that I think they understood whether it was the words or whether they were just ready anyway I don't know but I felt it was you know it was keen to highlight how I felt about that moment and you look there like a man in control a man who knows what he wants to say why he wants to say it the message he wants to get across was self-doubt or imposter syndrome ever a factor in those in those kinds of moments when you do look around the room and see the great and the good of no i don't think once you're there get in there get in there i think it's always i have i done enough am i doing enough not necessarily who's doing more what everyone else has done it's like have i done enough am i doing enough until you get there you don't know if you're you should be there or you're good enough to be there and I think that's some people say I was really negative self-defeatist and you know making obstacles for yourself but I don't think so I think it's almost a form of personal analysis in the fact of you know you can let it run away for yourself and you can hold you back but if you try and be aware of that it can be potentially a positive thing because you've got that self-reflection awareness review whatever you want to call it so what were the kind of indicators you'd look for though that would then give you that sense of no I'm where we should be again I I know it's hard but I think sometimes I feel and it's not necessarily a result but you you you could lose a game and still feel like you had a good effect on the game um because and it is cliched but it's never as good as they say it is but it's never as bad as well and I think that you know there's nothing worse than some somebody saying you played better than you actually did.

1:04:52And I was always conscious of that, conscious of that, massively so. What do you tell us about emotional control? Because for a man that played in such a competitive position... I didn't have a lot. I didn't have a lot for a lot of my career. Some potentially would say. I was a bit feisty when I was younger, quite a few yellow cards in my early days of the O's, and they eeked in a little bit. And the funny thing is, you know, you need the niggle you do need nickel um you need to be present and sometimes you need it because other teams will give give it to you whatever and you know there's there's gamesmanship and all those sorts of things but it can be unhealthy as well because and if you go looking for it you detract away from your performance uh and there's elements at times where people are doing on purpose and pull you out of the game and you don't realize that actually you're being pulled out of the game because the game's moving on and two or three phases on you could miss the support line and And you're like, well, actually, you know, particularly when I got later on, you could have, you know, a young player that wants to get a scalp or something and all those things.

1:05:57It's a bit old school, but, you know, at the time, I fell into those traps, particularly my younger days. And again, I was a bit of a bull in a china shop, the whole captaincy thing. And if someone wasn't keeping up or they weren't at a scratch, you know, I'd be a bit like, well, you know, and the brow would come down. And it's like, it's not necessarily how to get the best of people at times. before we finish you said that people think that you lack emotion you're like I think this has been a really emotional conversation yeah I don't know I think it's just again it's interpretation people always tell me I don't smile enough and people ask did I enjoy what I did because I was like 100 % 100 % and I'm like I don't know I don't want to say about being in the zone or flow state that's a bit too much high performance for me but I was like the feedback is I'm going to know whether I won I'm going to be told how well or not I didn't play but ultimately I'm going to know if I actually did what I could when I took the field and sometimes you, again, I've said it a couple of times the way I felt a lot of times it's hard to describe but I think anybody that's performed to the highest level and been successful and failed will know the juxtaposition and the ability of explaining how you feel in those moments and essentially how do you encapsulate a life's work into a game or a race or an achievement?

1:07:21It's not possible. And how different is this conversation to one that we might have had if you were still playing? I probably would have been a lot more cautious, probably would have been less emotive and, yeah, probably more protective. So I'm glad we've waited till I've hung up the boots because, you know, and again, perception is everything, but I think as I've matured, you know, I'm a bit like Marmite, you're going to understand me or you're not. And ultimately, that's not my problem. It's freeing the vulnerability, isn't it? To talk in a vulnerable way. Yeah. I think the world's changed as well, though, in a good way, particularly for a certain demographic, I think it's important.

1:08:06Particularly in sport, whatever you come out of, I think people need to know that it's okay, that change takes time. And, you know, I think I said it earlier, if you need to get lost to find yourself, then that's all right. Don't be afraid to share things, speak to people. Because if you haven't experienced something out there, there is someone that has. And, you know, hopefully, fast forward a little bit and I can potentially help a few guys if, you know, if they need it further down the line. Brilliant, right. Ready for some quickfire questions? Go on then.

1:08:45The three non-negotiable behaviours that are most important to you? Trust, accountability, application, because that could be physical and cerebral. But that is work ethic to learn, work ethic to train. So it's a bit of a two-pronged. So who are the three best players that you played with that embody trust, accountability, and application? Oh, so many. I could be biased because I've got a lot of friends. I think, I tell you what, I'll go non-Welsh. It makes it easy for me. Paul O 'Connell. Yeah, because you could trust him to know that he was going to do his job. Accountability both ways. and then the work ethic to ensure that you knew your role and you knew that he knew his role as well.

1:09:40I'll go Philo Tietia, because he came in to the region and I think there's not, it's hard to describe that can encapsulate what a leader pro and effect someone can have on your environment. And I think he did that not only to younger players like myself, but a lot of senior players, the way he looked after himself, the way he was performing at a high level and the impact he had on our team at that time. I'm going to do it. I'm going to say Adam Jones. Just because coming through as a youngster, I'm very friendly with Bomb now. I felt I had to earn his trust. And that's the big thing about trust.

1:10:26It's got to be earned. It's got to be proven. and I spent a lot of time behind him in the scrum and he would hold me to account if I won't put enough weight through. And, you know, it's a tight head prop in the game. It's still one of the hardest jobs in it. To do it like he did and the way he's developed to a coach, you know, the application not only as a player from the mental, physical side, but to be able to do that and see what he's doing on the influence of some players as a coach, is impressive for him as someone in the game. Most intimidating player that you played against? Bacchies. And I don't know whether it was intimidation, but I think it was respect, because I saw some of the pre-chat conversations and it was all about enforcer, and I think that sort of role isn't a stereotype now in the game because they make the game safer for obvious reasons and try to make it more appealable.

1:11:25to the masses and all those things. But I think, you know, him and Victor McAfee in that row, him as, you know, the enforcer and then Victor pulling the strings, you know, they were, you know, they were at one point the longest second row pairing. Fortunate enough to play against him and get taught a few lessons a couple of times. And yeah, most definitely. But also the way he moved and played for a big man, he could play the game and he could still do all the other extracurricular stuff on the field that he needed to do for the period of game he was playing. Extracurricular stuff. I love that description.

1:12:05The dark arts. Wow. I don't know what they are. Is it artists? Is it artistic? It's more expression, isn't it? Lions, Captain. Who are you picking? It's hard to go away from the form book with Kaelin Doris. I think just the way Ireland have gone, their succession is, you know, you look at that, that back row and the options they have and the way he's been playing leading the team. I should imagine, you know, I'm not speaking for him, I should imagine it's a relatively easy team to lead at the minute, but to play the way he is in that team in amongst those back rows, well, back five, the options they have, you know, is impressive.

1:12:40So you can't really go too far from the form book, to be honest. Taking into account the epitaph on your dad's headstone of it's how the game was played and that question as you walked into the Wales dressing room, how do you want to be remembered? How do you want to be remembered? I don't know, and this sounds really bad, I wouldn't mind not being remembered. For me, I think if this current crop can go on and do more than I achieved, that is the ultimate. Go on, win a World Cup and people say, well, you're mental, they're never going to do that. But if there's no more success than I had, people don't do more than what I had, then it hasn't moved forward.

1:13:22and I know it's about me but if I'm not remembered then I know more has been achieved which ultimately is what I want to see for Wales and rugby in Wales. So that's from a rugby perspective. What about Anwen and the girls? Hopefully they feel that they were loved and I was present and they were the part of this and Anwen particularly at this stage was more than a big part of this and I just hope that Lottie is the youngest, she won't remember but we made sure that the kids, you know, had all the opportunity to go to Stadion Maur. And, you know, then, you know, they went to a game recently and they asked why we're going in through the turnstiles.

1:14:01And I was like, oh my God, what have we created? You're still going in through other doors, should we say. But, no, hopefully they realised what gratitude I have, the appreciation, the love, and they were part of it all. And that's, you know, we spoke briefly about that's why my book is about how I felt about the game now. So hopefully if they get bored in 10, 15, 20 years, they can find a copy and flip through it and potentially use it as a coffee coaster after it. What's the single best piece of advice you've ever received and why? I probably said it earlier, really. It's never as good as they say it is and it's never as bad.

1:14:42I'm terrible for dipping in and out of cliches, but that's like, anybody in the public eye, I think that's important to remember because it's easy to forget in the modern world with social media and all that sort of stuff. But that's huge for me. Because even if you have a great game, you're only as good as your... You're always off to another cliche. You're only as good as your next one until you haven't got a next one. And that goes quick. That goes really quick. Listen, thank you so much for this fascinating conversation. The final question. What you'd like to leave ringing in the ears of the people that are watching and listening to this, your one golden rule, if you like, for a high-performance life.

1:15:22I've got two, potentially two. I think high performance. If you think you've achieved it, you're not high performance. High performance doesn't stop. So do you think you achieved high performance? No. No. Hopefully, if something's that, depends on what your level of high performance is. If it's high enough, you'll never achieve it. Because it's funny, I almost dripped into it earlier. Have you ever seen that? This is on and off topic. have you ever seen the documentary Ice Guardians at the end when they ask a question to the guy I can't remember his name so I apologise for that and he goes if you go back and you could do it all again would you do it?

1:16:02and he goes yes but I would have gone twice as hard that's not my words but it's you can relate I can fully relate well listen you can't live it all again but you can live going forward so go as hard as you like but probably more importantly than that take time to enjoy it yeah do you have a word

1:16:27Damien Jake look it's another of those conversations where we sit here afterwards and say what an absolute pleasure to be the people that were lucky enough to delve into the mindset of Alan so fresh from retirement you know it's only been less than two years and I think he's starting now to think and see life in a way that he probably hasn't for the previous 20. Yeah, you know, he used the term about being institutionalized, of going on holiday with his wife and asking her, like, what time's breakfast, what we're going to eat, what time's lunch? And whilst it sounds funny, I can really empathize with that idea that every day your life has been structured from what time you get up to what you eat to what time you go to bed at the end of it.

1:17:08So for somebody to be stepping out of that, we have to understand that it takes patience it takes time for them to readjust to the life that we take for granted i think it was very interesting hearing him talk about his relationship with his dad you know the whole thing was triggered by him being given his first wales cap um and realizing that his parents had sacrificed so much but it was only really put into context when his daughters were born and he then realized like that's how a parent feels about their child and i think that he definitely carries regrets for those early years where he sacrificed so much including the relationship with his parents to focus on the sport but I would certainly say that I kind of feel that from what I the limited things I know about Alan's dad I think his dad would have understood that his son had to do the things he did to get to the places that he got to and you know there's often things that are left unsaid but I think we have to realize that even if something hasn't been said between the two of you there's a strong chance his dad understood why his son did the things that he did do you know massively i think when understanding like you say a little snippet his father was a workaholic that dedicated his life towards helping others as a lawyer but more importantly to helping his own family and give them the opportunities that he then saw his son go on and make the most of so i think his dad undoubtedly would have looked back on him and gone you know using his formula the input i put in is definitely worth the output that Alan managed to get out of his career.

1:18:39And I hope sometimes these conversations remind our audience, the majority of whom are not involved in elite sport, to actually enjoy life while it's going on. You know, when you say to Alan, what do you miss about your rugby career? And he says, I miss everything and I miss nothing. You know, it's a reminder that these, we have these fleeting moments in life where we get privileged access to certain people or certain emotions or certain experiences. And if we don't enjoy them when they're happening, we will never get them again. And so I think it's just a good reminder to do the best we can, where we are, what we've got, but just stop each day and go, man, I really enjoyed that.

1:19:11It was a real privilege. And I certainly felt sitting here, talking in that way with a true rugby icon, that it was a real privilege. Yeah, I think for Alan, the idea of allowing any sense of enjoyment in almost felt like he was then going to become complacent and complacency would take him away from further opportunities. But I think when he says everything and nothing, the and in that sentence is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting for him there because he's still on that tightrope of not being able to look back on his career because he worries it might take away from what's coming. And I think the better we can find that balance, that idea that we can take time to enjoy it without feeling that we're resting on our laurels or patting ourselves on our back or framing our shirts on the wall, I think we can all learn that happiness is still available while still working hard.

1:20:04Yeah, it's okay to tell yourself well done. Well done. Yeah, well done, mate. Thank you. And that brings us to the end of today's conversation. Please feel free to pass it on to someone that you think would enjoy that chat with Alan. And don't forget, as well as listening to these, you can also watch them. You can see them on YouTube, and I would suggest in this instance, it was pretty emotional. You can see Alan's emotion there. And you can actually watch them and hear them before anyone else if you just download the High Performance app. But don't go anywhere because over the next few weeks, High Performance is proudly sponsored by the UK Government's Department for Business and Trade.

1:20:43Over the next few weeks, High Performance is proudly sponsored by the UK Government's Department for Business and Trade, bringing you valuable insights into expanding your business internationally with their free UK Export Academy training programme. So are you interested in taking your business global? Well, I'll be joining business owners over the next few episodes as we explore how to grow your business by tapping into global markets with expert guidance from the UK Export Academy. So make sure you stay tuned. Eight weeks from now, we're also going to be hosting a live roundtable event featuring all the mentees and some experts where you will have the chance to join the conversation.

1:21:21So these conversations are all about the UK Export Academy. So to kick off our exciting series, I'm about to be joined by Mark Burkitt, who's one of the incredibly insightful UK Export Academy trade advisors who supports businesses to grow their international sales by fronting some of the programme's webinars. Mark, first of all, welcome to High Performance. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here, Jake. What can you tell us about the kind of experience they can have with the UK Export Academy? I mean, I just want to say right up front, it's a free training programme, right? All business owners can access it.

1:21:51So if someone does get in touch with you, what would actually happen? Well, when they enrol, they'd register for the Exports Academy, which would then give them access to a whole calendar of webinars and masterclasses that we conduct. We have an expression that we use quite a lot within the Exports Academy, and it's you don't know what you don't know. Everybody that comes along to the UK Exports Academy, they have a great product or a great idea even perhaps, but they just don't know how to internationalise it. And that's where we can help with the help and support that we have to offer. People have got strengths.

1:22:25People have always got strengths. But, you know, the opposite side of that is they've got weaknesses as well. And that's where we can help because we can help strengthen those weaknesses. I can also imagine people listening to this thinking, well, my business is different to other people's businesses. You know, maybe Mark hasn't got experience in the specific sector that I'm in at the moment. So how is the advice sort of tailored to anyone and everyone, if that makes sense? Is it generalised advice that people just don't know that can make a big difference? Or do you delve into the specifics of their business?

1:22:54Well, I think that's one of the strengths of the UK Exports Academy and the wider Department for Business and Trade offer as well. It's not one size fits all because it just couldn't be, I guess. But what we have got is a wealth of sector specialists within the departments. And I think one of the strengths of the Department for Business and Trade is the fact that we have people working overseas in embassies, high commissions and consulates. our eyes and ears, if you like, on the ground, who they've got one foot in your camp anyway because they're there to support British businesses. With the UK Exports Academy, we touch upon the things that you need to be considering.

1:23:28And when you say about specialist industries or specialist products and may stress services as well, you know, over half of what we export as a nation are services. So, you know, for anybody that thinks, well, it's not for me, I'm a service business, I can't export. Let me tell you, you absolutely can. You just need to know the way how. One area that I'm especially excited about is going on this journey with three mentees who I'm going to be speaking to over the next few weeks, all of whom are business owners, all of them are looking to grow their international sales in new countries. From their perspective, what would be a key bit of advice for the people that I'm going to be speaking to about selling overseas?

1:24:03If there's something that you want to do, you have to research it thoroughly. You can't half do something, you know, and I think the biggest mistakes that we come across with people, And to be fair, some of the fairly big players, major UK companies often overlook. Do your research. You've got the information at your fingertips now. But if you don't know how to look for it, and perhaps more importantly, you don't know what to look for, you're setting off to fail. And what are the kinds of things that would make a business not ready for global export at the moment? Well, can you cope with an increase in demand, you know, production capacity?

1:24:37If you're in a products-based business, can you actually ramp up your business to take on new orders? It could be the finance to ramp up your business. And of course, what we can do as the Department for Business and Trade and the UK Exports Academy is act as a conduit with perhaps people that might be able to help like UKEF, the UK Export Finance, who may be able to help you with finance, the British Business Bank or local growth hubs, etc., etc. So we can act as a conduit for that. And if someone's thinking about inquiring, but they're a bit nervous about it, why would you say exporting is so exciting?

1:25:14One of the big things is it's about people. It's a person-to-person business. When you drill it right down to its common denominator, it's a human being interacting with a human being. And people buy from people they can believe in and people that they trust and people, dare I say it, that they like. And we should recognise that people want to buy British products. If it's got manufactured in the United Kingdom on the label, people recognise that around the world. We should be quite proud of what we do. Lovely. I've learned a lot already just in these few minutes. And I guess I'll be passing down some of those words of wisdom and some information or some guidance, if I can, to some of the mentees that I'm going to be speaking to.

1:25:50Mark, thanks so much for your time. Thank you, Jake. And if you're keen to get a head start, then please do check out the free training and resources available at great.gov.uk forward slash global or click the link in the description.

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