Business Roundtable; How to REALLY Run a Business in 2024

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance app. Maggie, who's the CEO of Lewis FC. We've also got Clem with us, the owner of two incredible South London pubs. And finally, Alice, who's a startup founder, helping women make better health decisions that they can trust. And I think what's wonderful about this is that for so long, we've had messages from all of you, our high performance community saying, I want to hear from real people, people who've taken the leap, people who've been brave enough to go it alone and see how they can get on in business. And we're about to have a really honest conversation about the highs, the lows, the challenges, and of course, the things that are wonderful about living a life that our four guests are living.

1:08But before that, big thanks to BT, who are facilitating this bonus episode. BT know that as you'll hear today, businesses come in many shapes and sizes, from the person just starting out at their kitchen table, I think a few of us have been there at one point, to the biggest global employer. Because put simply whatever your business BT has got your back well first of all thank you all so much for coming to have a chat with me I think it's um I think it's important and powerful to share different entrepreneurial stories different founder stories and I want this to be a conversation of total honesty because I do feel that there's so much misinformation out there about what it's actually like to live the life that all of you are living um so I'm really excited about the things we're going to discuss.

1:52What I thought would be quite cool, if you're all right with this, is to take it in turns. I might start with you, Ed, and then work around the table. Just telling us where you're from, what you do, and a little bit about your journey so we can all understand a bit more. Sure. So thanks for having me, first of all. So I'm Ed Reed. I run a business called The Alternative Board. We're based up in Leeds, but we work nationally. And we exist to try and help business owners be less lonely because we recognize it's a pretty scary place to be. Often the scarier, the bigger the business gets. You're kind of still at the top of just a bigger pyramid with nowhere to turn sometimes.

2:36So one of the things we do is bring groups or business owners together, typically six or seven around a table, same group who meet month in, month out. They get to know each other, trust each other, be open with each other about everything they've got going on in their business and actually their lives we were talking about it just earlier that it's so kind of interwoven isn't it um you know it's not just the business or not just your life so yeah we try and combat that loneliness love it thank you Maggie so yeah um I'm the chief exec of Lewis football club which is a fan-owned club so we have 2 ,500 owners around the world um and one of the things that the fan owners did back in 2017 was vote for the club to be the first in the world to introduce equality into the club.

3:23So at the time, the women's team were not really making any money, fewer than 100 people coming to games. Fast forward a couple of years, and we now have equal attendances. Our sponsorship has gone through the roof, and our women's team are bringing in hundreds of thousands of pounds. So it's completely changed the way that you think about football. But apart from it being a kind of equality FC, it's also, for me personally, it's trying to figure out if it's possible to run an ethical, transparent, accountable, equitable football club. Because football for me is, especially as a woman growing up, wasn't always the healthiest, nicest, most inclusive or welcoming place to be.

4:06Amazing story. No pressure, Clement. My name's Clement Ogbenaya. I'm the CEO of the Village People Pub Group. We own two pubs, one called Prince of Peckham, another called Queen of the South. And the whole mission was to create pub space. I love pubs. But back in the day growing up, pubs weren't exactly like inclusive. They were very much like white men, you know, middle class, you know, working class. But it was very much like quite singular. But I love pubs as buildings. And I wanted to regenerate these pubs within these communities and actually give the pubs back to the communities in which they resided.

4:48So it was very much about equality. It was very much about people, LGBTQ women, you know. And yeah, just like regenerating pub spaces and giving them back to where the people that belong in those spaces. Well done. Yeah. And finally, Alice, all yours. I'm Alice. I'm the founder and CEO of The Lowdown. We are a women's health research platform that's used by almost 2 million women a year. Women share their experiences with things like contraception, endometriosis, fertility and polycystic ovarian syndrome in order to help other women work out what their side effects, their symptoms and what solutions might be best for them.

5:29I set it up because I had loads of problems with my reproductive health and I realised that there was a massive lack of space for women to feel really listened to and heard when it comes to their healthcare. So there's two things that leap out to me straight away from the things that you've all said. that the first one is the challenge, like the loneliness. The fact that actually being a founder, being an entrepreneur, being a CEO, it does come with challenges. But at the same time, I love the fact that all of you have got clear purpose to what you're doing, whether it's your own journeys where you've seen things or you've experienced things that you're not happy with.

6:07Can we talk about this kind of balance, really, between the fact that what you're doing can be so fantastic, but actually it can also be so challenging? What do you think? I feel like I'm not one of those people that has a five-year plan. Like I just don't, I don't really, I can't really see how people have those plans because I don't know what's going to happen in the world. So, and I know that lots of career advisors would say, oh, make sure you've got your plan, hit your goals, hit your targets. Even people on the high performance podcast will say that. And that is just not, I'm so much more values led than I am kind of goal led.

6:39and I think that I found myself in what other people might call impossible situations, partly because I felt like, well, if not you, then who? Because there is that gap and there is that need to do something and I'm kind of looking around trying to figure out who's going to do it and then, you know, that awkward silence in a classroom where no one's speaking, I'll always be the one that goes, oh, well, is it this? And the teacher might say, no, but I've broken the silence And I feel like probably in some of the career choices I've made, it's been because, OK, well, I better go and try and figure it out.

7:14So I don't know whether that's actually the right way to do it. But that's how I find myself kind of trying to plug those gaps and figure out how to do things better or differently. Yeah. And personally, I find anger like a very motivating emotion for me. Like if I'm pissed off about something, that normally means that, you know, we're right at the edge of figuring something out or breaking through and like coming up with something. And that was my own personal experiences with side effects from my contraception, googling my symptoms and not really finding a solution that was built for me. And then over time, realizing that you actually have to take the idea and then actually do something about it to get started.

7:55But once it's going and you maybe spend a few hours a week on your business idea or your solution, you get into this momentum. but I often think you know those first um early weeks and months when you're really just like getting going are really really hard but as the momentum grows the anger grows and your motivation grows and before you know it five years later you're here with a business you know raise money got a team and really actually like building the thing that that you thought of all those years ago do you know when I when I made a decision like in 2016 so I've always been like in events and parties and like creating space that people just leave all their woes at the door but when i decided to actually buy a pub like straight up it was about i wanted to make some money right i just want to make some money i wanted to say my financial narrative um wanted to chain my families and then i opened the doors may 2017 and it was insane so we had this this um this old two old ladies black ladies walk in um and they lived in the estate across the road and she said um she said on the 18th of May she came in and she said you don't understand what you've done I've lived here for over 40 years and I've never walked into this pub and it was so powerful like it was just and then all of a sudden you go from and don't get me wrong I'm 42 years old at the time I was about 35 36 so you started to get a sense of social responsibility about that at this point I was like rah this is actually this is quite significant and I know when I talk about pubs I I talk about pubs like, see for me, my pubs are a slice of the ecosystem or the world that I would like to live in just represented within this pub.

9:35And when I see people that need that sort of like inclusive and feeling, it just changes the whole motivation. So I believe in like making magic. And if you make magic, you make money. And that's been my mantra since I opened up Prince of Peckham. But, you know, fortunately, it's done what it needs to do. but having that why that purpose like because there's days where i think if you're chasing the pound you know you end up making short-term decisions and i've and i'm not here to like look over my shoulder every two days whereas i think when things are a lot more deeply rooted in yourself because there's days you don't want to wake up like if you're getting out of bed just for money then you're not my kind of person you know because but when there's days when you wake up because your why is strumming like you have to get up right now because you're here to make and also that has its own that has its own drawbacks because you know you're so like connected with all this it's so multifaceted and so like layered your staff your training your development your accounts your this but I really believe in like the magic and the purpose of like you know creating these spaces that encourage inclusivity that encourage like people to just want to be who they are regardless of what the western norms tells them to be so yeah that's absolutely like why is important that's so funny because that is unbelievably similar to what we do but we just don't without the booze which is i'm maybe thinking we need to rethink um but we are also creating spaces where people feel safe and listened to and kind of valued which i think sometimes they feel like they don't get that when they're in a you know in a group with people who don't own businesses because they just don't quite get it.

11:14And, you know, we are, you know, we're massively, we're massive champions of, you know, SME owners absolutely think they're the heartbeat of the UK economy. I've worked in corporates, you know, kind of half my career before I did this, you know, and some of them do some great stuff, but actually SMEs make, you know, the economies around the world sing and yet they're often stuck with nowhere to go. And that's, you know, that's our kind of mission to give them the kind of that that sort of prince of peckham environment but uh you know yeah so far without the booze so tell me what um what purpose does for all of you because from my own personal experience it gives me clarity of thoughts you know i i wouldn't be sitting here and i would still be hosting sports programs on the tv if i didn't have a sense of purpose high performance gave me a real for the first time in my life i actually felt useful for other people.

12:09And that was a real sense of purpose for me. I'm really interested in what drives you all as individuals. What is the purpose? Is it for you? Is it for others? Is it for your family? I've got two daughters who ultimately will be two black women. And my whole thing was like, I know how I grew up. I was born in Nigeria. I came when I was six. And I remember, I've got a picture on my Instagram and I'm in Heathrow Airport, me, my mum, my brother and my sister. and I remember just feeling alien, feeling really alien, excited by alien, like what the hell's going on here? I'm in London, I'm in Heathrow and then I started school and I grew up in South East London and back then being African wasn't cool, it wasn't like you were either white or you were Caribbean kind of thing and it was understanding, figuring things out, like where I worked, what position I had or social standards, all this sort of stuff And I think for me, with my two daughters now, when I say change, I want to change their narrative.

13:11I want ownership to be their default. I never want them to feel less than any of their light-skinned counterparts. I want my two daughters to be empowered by who they are, not what people are telling them to try and be. So, like, that's definitely, if it's the right answer to the question, like, that's my high-performance purpose. But what does it do for you? It gives me, like, well. Does it? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like I was talking about getting out of your bed, but also I take what I do seriously. You know, and I think when people look at pubs and stuff, the service industry doesn't necessarily get the respect that it deserves.

13:51I mean, one of my pubs turned over£4 million in one year. No one would expect that from a boozer. That's because we do things at a level where every single person that comes in, the experience that we deliver is actually like, the end result is everyone that comes is going to leave with that level of empowerment that level of like ownership that belonging and that really what it does does for me Do you all relate to when I said to Clement what does the purpose do for you and he goes it gives me we all know that do you know what I think all of us go I know what this feels like I've got no way how to describe it to other people how can we do that so we try and get all of the people who we work with we try and get them really focused on their purpose and it is a massive struggle sometimes you know people often you know they'll come up with a couple of kind of nice looking sentences and you're like really is that that's what it's about is it and you've got to dig and dig and dig to help them understand because i think nearly everyone running their own business has that sense of purpose but they can't articulate it very well but the whole get out of bed when you know maybe you're feeling low energy or when you've got really difficult decisions to make if you pair it all the way back to what is this actually about and the decisions are quite easy but other stuff, peripheral stuff gets in the way I think until you get back to that kind of real like the kernel of what is this all about for you.

15:17So nothing I really, really value in being the word entrepreneur, just being like a leader or creator or someone that's trying to develop, is the development of my team and my staff. Because like, at 42 years, I don't think I'm necessarily important, right? I think I'm all about the next generation and the empowerment of the next generation and showing them. Because when I was younger, my older boys, they weren't giving me court. They weren't saying, Clem, do you know what? They were sending me to the shop to get some sweets while they spoke and not allowed me to move forward in my situation. So being in a position where I am allowing younger people to speak to me, to give them employment, because I weren't given many chances as a 16, 17, 18-year-old in retail.

16:08Whereas when I would come in late and they'd be like, all right, cool, see you later, bye. Not really trying to understand there's a socioeconomic impact of being a kid living in South East London with your mum and dad who doesn't know money. like that all has its impact and it's it's taking that experience and understand that with the next set of people and giving and like that really that development of individuals is something i really really really really value i think you touched there on like the this concept of power dynamics which are sometimes there for absolutely no reason so i think in football you obviously have these power dynamics you're a player or you're a coach and you just tell the players what to do and that's And then you've got the club, the CEO, the directors.

16:48They tell the staff. They tell the players what to do. They make the choices. And there's almost like this hierarchy of power that is there for more than 100 years. But for what? I mean, most businesses that are really well run are actually much more collaborative, much more cohesive, much more sharing. There's a lot more humility. And so I think that's one thing. Like at Lewis, we're constantly trying to unpick these things that is just the way that things have always been done. Like the whole traditional piece. Old ideas. Yeah, but it's infuriating because you're having to unpick things that people are not necessarily ready for.

17:21So when we ask our players their opinions for things, sometimes they're like, you know, rabbit in the headlights. Why are you asking us? Just tell us what to do. And you're like, no, no, no, we're trying to figure out from you how you want this to work or how can we do this better. And I think that's just one. I think that if you're ever in a situation where someone is saying, think, if anyone ever says to you, well, that's just the way we've done it, you know, you know, you're right. And you know that you have the scope there to start changing things. Because if you can't answer, if they can only answer with that response, then yeah, it's not good enough.

17:58Can we talk about the challenges? Because it's all very well saying, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a business owner, I'm a founder, I'm a CEO, like, people often use that to put themselves on a pedestal, right? I don't think we talk often enough about actually the challenges that come with it so let's have a really honest conversation about how bloody hard it actually is where would you begin I so I set up the lowdown because I had loads of problems with my hormones and my reproductive health and um what was then ironic that was one of the biggest challenges of running the lowdown was actually when I got pregnant last year I was so tired and so nauseous and so exhausted I just couldn't make decisions I just could not lead my team I was just I had like really bad brain fog and it's horrible feeling like you really cannot get a handle on a grip on things that you know day to day you'd smash through your to-do list quite quickly but you just you just can't um it was like definitely the most challenging period um for me as a founder but the one good decision I did make was bringing in someone to run the company while I had a baby and I think good leadership is knowing when not to lead and when to step back and be like I literally cannot do this um and having someone else come into the business with fresh perspective fresh energy um and being able to fully switch off after I had my baby was yeah it was a good decision and I think I dealt with it quite well it's a good message that isn't it it is um good people is everything.

19:31You know, I've run like hundreds and hundreds of these meetings that I've talked about, you know, with, you know, business owners sat around a table and 80 % of the biggest challenges are people related, co-founders sometimes or other shareholders or people in, you know, in their teams. And it can be really difficult to navigate, you know, because you're still, you're still a human at the end of the day and you try and be nice and do the right thing. But if people aren't and doing stuff that you'd want them doing and where you haven't got the culture right, that is a nightmare. And that's really, really difficult.

20:10People look at you as having the answer. Totally. And like I was saying before, the bigger the business gets, they still think you've got all the answers and almost that you're not sharing them sometimes. And actually, you're flailing around just with no idea, actually, about what the best way to go is, particularly if it's a either or thing. It can be really, really tough on your own that. Flailing around with no idea which direction to go. I imagine that we all can relate to that, right? Absolutely. I think one thing that I guess a bit different from the guys around the table, you're all founders or co-founders, whereas I'm a chief exec.

20:50So I've come into something and I've always referred to as, you know, I'm a custodian. This club has been around since 1885. I'll only be a tiny speck of its overall chapter. Well, I am a chapter, I guess, in its story. So with that, you inherit a lot of those issues around people, culture and, you know, you come with your own ideas. But it takes time to implement. And sometimes things don't move or change as fast as you want. and things that you think are normal business practice or are either not in place or you have to put in place. But it's one thing to write a set of policies or a strategy or a document.

21:29It's another thing to actually implement and that takes time. And I think that's probably one of the toughest juggling acts is how do you put in place some processes? Clarity for me is really important. Transparency is so important for me. I guess one of the first things I really try to do was establish a club strategy and then publish it, which is very unusual for a football club. And then at the end of the year, I actually published how well we did against the strategy, which is actually kind of normal business practice, but not in the sports world. And at the beginning, people were saying, if we publish a strategy, then other clubs will do the same.

22:07And I'm like, if you're a chef, you publish your recipes, it doesn't mean other people can do it. So I think it's just one of those things where I just felt like it was really important to be 100 % transparent in what we were trying to do. And also that allowed me to use levers internally when I was hitting the kind of culture tradition. This is the way we've always done it. And I'm like, yeah, but now we've got a strategy which says we're going to try and do things differently. But it still takes time to kind of implement and actually see through. I think I totally get that. I think one of the things that happens and we talk about it a lot is that arguably the faster a business grows, it can sometimes outgrow some of the people in it.

22:45and yet they're the people who've been there from the start and played amazingly important roles in getting the business there. But that sometimes gets to a point when they're not going to be as effective because the business has gone beyond their capabilities. And that is, you know, for founders to then, you know, effectively move those people on or bring people in, you know, above them, that is really tough emotionally because they owe a kind of debt of gratitude and they feel guilt. and you know some of those conversations can be really tough so i think i'm moving on from that in terms of like the whole the guilt stuff is like the biggest challenge for me is having to be so many different things with so many different people with so many all the time and you know we're talking about holidays before and i and i haven't i haven't been away since last year august and it's like it's very very important like you know this is all encompassing all all immersive like entrepreneur you know quagmire that it is that you do take some time away for yourself and remember why you're doing this remember who you are in this because you you know your your founder your you know your husband your boss your developer your trainer your dad just so many different things but ultimately like it's still you're still clem like there's a reason why you did this and and remembering that purpose and taking your step away and i will i will implore like anyone who wants to do their own business or get into any sort of stream for themselves, have that in mind because your mental health plays a massive part.

24:11I was watching that amazing Beckham documentary on Netflix and they were talking about, and I watched The Overlap as well, and they were talking about how back then we went through all that and there was no mental health support back then, which is insane to think. But then the other side of the coin is that there's mental health support now, but some people choose not to use it because of ego or you know cultural um um blockages or boundaries and i just think it's really really important as anyone who's like running 100 miles an hour trying to run through brick walls and stuff like just to to take a little you know sin bin is probably not the best part but just take like yeah you know a little break away that would that's that is the biggest challenge as an entrepreneur yeah and it makes you more creative like I thought of the idea for the lowdown when I was on sabbatical and I don't think had I had not had like a couple of weeks and months off did the idea of just like pop into my head when I was out for dinner with my partner in New Zealand I do think you know it's like when you have thoughts in the shower you've got to give yourself enough showers or time to shower to think of those ideas and I might not be at my desk but I'm always thinking about my company all the time you know I'm looking out the train window I'm thinking about it I'm in the bath I'm thinking about it and like things will start to click into place or ideas will bring into my head or you know something I'm thinking about will just suddenly oh yeah that's it will pop into my head if I'm on a walk and I'm very keen on making my team take holiday as well because it's so important that just have that physical and mental space away to let those little shower thoughts come into your head.

25:57How did everyone feel about lockdown? Because I don't know if that was a question or something. In terms of challenges, lockdown... So Mads, I just opened the pub 2017 and I was looking at their second pub, October 2019, acquired a premises licence March 2020. We went into lockdown April 2020. and I just moved my family into a new house on February 24th, 2020. I'm like, ah, oh my God. I've literally like bankrolled my whole shit on, you know, sorry. But, you know, in hindsight, obviously it was a treacherous time for a lot of people, including myself, but there was, whenever we were ever going to get three months to hit pause, to take stock of everything, you know, and that for me was the real turning point in my business and how I approached it.

26:52You know, I was able to spend, it was a holiday I needed, I didn't ever get. I got to spend every day with my daughter. My wife's a doctor, so she was on the front line. But it was just an incredible time to, you know, I have this thing, it's called, I'm saying it's called the art of not doing. So everyone seems to move like, to hit force with force. Everyone's doing this, you know. Ah, the system's against you, or this sort of, I'm like, so we're constantly doing that. there's no progress because let's be honest system's gonna win right let's be real but the moment you take that immovable force or that and use it towards your own agenda your own mission whatever that happens to be that's that's literally what happened with me in lockdown i was like cool this is happening i can't leave my house so i'm gonna do is i'm gonna take all of this i'm gonna make myself my relationship my family my business and we came out of lockdown and prince of peckham went from one floor to three floors.

27:46It was, we tripled our revenue. And then I knew I was in a position to eventually buy this second business. So, I mean, challenges are always going to be there. Is this really how, do you just like hit it head on or do you actually start taking those elements and drawing them towards yourself and realizing, actually, do you know what? I can use this towards my goal and my agenda. For us, it was like, it was the single biggest example of when we were talking earlier about going back to your purpose. so I've got a co-owner Mags and the two of us I think it was four years ago to the day more or less the pandemic was declared or something like that so I remember that very distinctly 500 or so panicking clients and we just stripped it right back to what are we here for we're here to support them and you know they pay us fees to you know to kind of get in you know get the support they get from us it's like But our message to all of them was, we're here for you.

28:46Whatever's going on, we'll have sensible conversations with you, but don't just resign. Because if you do and kind of just go back and try and do stuff on your own right now, this is an absolute time when we're supposed to exist for you. So let's have sensible commercial conversations with you, but we are here for you. And it actually made it really simple. So those first, I mean, some of it was horrendous, wasn't it? But actually there was a massive sense of sort of mission for those first three to six months of, you know, we're going to do what we're best at now. And it was almost harder coming out of it than when we were right in the thick of all the tricky stuff because our decision-making was so clear then.

29:34And it was great weather. well there is a big argument here isn't there that you know the time when you really get tested is when things are tough and you know entrepreneurship can look really exciting from the outside when you set up a business and it flies but it's the hard times i think that lead you to make probably some of the best decisions i mean i know that from personal experience you know with the companies i've got when things are difficult you you deliver because it reminds you why you're doing it. It almost gives you clarity of thought, don't you think? I think that, yeah, coming back on that, on the pandemic, I mean, in a football club, as soon as pre-season starts, not even the start of the season, you have your head down and you're just trying to get through to the end of the season.

30:20It might be nine months away, but you're still, you know, you're constantly in do mode. So in order to have something like the pandemic happen, And there was, you're trying to keep people healthy and safe. And, you know, our women's team was still playing at the same time that Premier League was still playing because they're elite football. The men's side had stopped. So you're juggling these two different types of football club in the same ground. Then there was a moment where the men were allowed to have fans back, the women weren't. And then it switched and the women were allowed to have fans back, the men weren't.

30:48We were still working with the same ground, trying to like map out everything differently. All of that was manic. but there was still a pause just before that before we were allowed to come back that was the time when I actually was able to get to grips with the hang on a sec what are we doing that that a moment of yeah we'll ground ourselves again let's let's develop this strategy let's use this time wisely and I'm not sure where we whether we would have come to where we eventually got to without that pause in a way so some of that is being able to have the luxury because it was a luxury um to have a bit of time and not have family members that were badly affected as i know others did um but yeah just i think sometimes you just make the most of some of those difficult situations to figure out how you're going to reconnect yourself to to your mission i think when times are tough is when you realize the people around you are really important can we talk about creating and maintaining a strong culture because it's one of the magic things when it comes to business uh what have you all learned about creating great cultures and what do you think a great culture looks like well for me it's i always uh someone much cleverer than me said that culture is what happens when the boss isn't in the room and whenever i check in on my team isn't that a depressing thought though and i can see them working really well together or supporting and challenging each other in the right way it's like oh great i don't need to be involved they are actually doing it you know or acting in a way that we we pride ourselves as a team so how do you make that happen it's so nebulous i find it incredibly difficult i think culture is just happening around us all the time but i mean you've got to consistently be a good person and lead by example i fundamentally believe that especially when you've got a junior team they they copy you They mirror your behaviours, your actions, the way you speak to partners, to customers.

32:50And if you're just consistently showing up to work and as much as you can representing yourself and how you'd like your company to be represented externally in the right way, they'll start to copy you. I know that sounds quite back and white, but I do think people will start to mirror, especially as they work their way up in their careers and kind of take on board what you teach them or show them. I think I say I don't know a lot. It's so hard, isn't it? You know, I'm kind of like, well, I don't know. What do you think? We're in this together. And I think for me, transparency is really, really important.

33:29I think a really good culture is one where people feel 100 % themselves and are able to bring themselves to the table and feel like they don't have to put on a front when they go to work or dampen down a part of their personality when they go to work. I really would want everyone to be able to bring their whole self and feel welcome. How do you create a culture where they feel they can do that? I think it's the transparency. I think it really is like being as open as you possibly can, listening a lot, and also, yeah, making allowances for people's ways of working, which might be a bit different to yours.

34:03That's one of the things I struggle with the most is I'm constantly trying to think to myself, is there actually an issue here or is it just that this person is working in a slightly different way to the way that I would work? And that gives me pause from time to time, but also at the point that I know that no, it's not just that that person works differently. There is actually a clash of values or there's a clash of, there's actually something deeper there. it gives me more energy to actually address that in a more concrete way and either move that person on or figure out what has to be done in that in that situation but i think humility is really important i think we have to be so humble about what we know what we don't know um what we know about each other's ways of working personalities like we don't know what's going on and we might think that we're close to our colleagues and to our staff but we might not actually know exactly what's going on with them as well where does hard work fit into this then because i i have a business in west london it's almost 300 staff which i think is quite hard to maintain a great culture right when you've got that amount of people but we've been voted one of the best places to work in tv for seven years running so there's something that's working and it's working really well and i think it's it is allowing people the freedom but also i actually think people really love the fact that we expect your ultimate best work and it's the most important question i think we ask our staff is that your very best work not quite good not almost your best is it your very best so how do we how do we bring people along on this journey and get them to work at that best level because let's be honest if you don't own the business if you're not the founder or you're not the boss not everyone's going to be as fully invested but you still need their very best work don't you so i think everyone everyone has a different definition of hard work um and actually what you want is people's best work, which is not necessarily masses of average stuff.

35:58So it comes back to culture, actually, and understanding individuals, where are they, how are you going to enable them to perform at their best? And if that's someone, for the sake of argument, doing five or six hours a day of amazing stuff, I'd rather they were doing that than 10 hours a day of average stuff for them. Other people will work harder and be better. And, you know, you're trying to, if you can get the best out of every single individual every day, you are on an absolute winner. I mean, it's probably impossible, but understanding the motivations of individuals and how they go about their...

36:35Sometimes they don't even necessarily understand their own motivations. So again, it's kind of communication, getting to know them properly, back to the purpose stuff. if you've got you know if you had 300 people all delivering on their purpose every day in your business that is going to be flying isn't it yeah I was talking about this Robin Van Persie interview I was watching the other day and he was talking about how everyone talks about football being a team sport being a team sport and it is a team sport but you still have to be the best individual in that team and you just said that your company won seven years in a row best place to work for that's that's a team achievement achieved by the individuals within that so that that in itself is is that motivation and it's having those clear like the very clear defined like targets you know there is there is structure within this leather fair culture that we all desire do you know i mean and there's just a reality you know doors open outwards on fire exits like you're not going to change that that's just what it is because i'll i'd rather open it the other way no bro you open it this way do you get what i mean there has to be there has to be that level of structure and and and shared goals within a team and as an individual you play a massive part in it but it's understanding what your contribution is to that you know i i looked at sport when i'm when i talk to my staff all the time at work i always use you know football teams right which team i'm an arsenal fan but i talk about pep guardiola a lot right um and he's very much like so imagine i'm i'm trying to tell my staff so it's your positioning behind the bar right someone comes in and you're focused on your on the back bar but how do you have the periphery of the person coming through so i always talk about how they should position them but if they become mad i'm like no no this is what we do but then then i say to them surprise me so if i'm there just just surprise me and then they're thinking about and they do like this so one of them it's something really silly yeah so she's walked out the bar and i'm sitting on table one and there's a bit of tissue i've seen on the floor right and i'm thinking let's see if she walked past this tissue and she actually goes and it it means absolutely nothing to nobody but it It meant, I think to me, the fact that she recognised that that tissue is unsightly.

38:45And she picked up and it was like, that for me is you're on your way to that level of performance. And it sounds so dumb, but if a customer comes in and sees that. So it's 1 % that make the difference. Marginal gains, absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm a great believer of that. We sort of built our culture through just having a constant feedback from women that we're helping. and I can't really describe it but if you have their voices being shared around the team on a daily almost hourly basis like oh thank you so much you helped me with this or I spoke to your doctors and like it was an amazing appointment or it just it kind of goes from there it glows outwards you don't really need to build anything because everyone will get so excited by how well you've done to help women that you firstly hire the people who aligned with that mission but then And you just constantly like pep them up with that feedback.

39:38And it just like radiates from inside out, if that makes sense. It's quite similar to what you said. Totally get that. So every year we have a conference where we have all of our franchisees, so 50 or so people together. We've got it next month. And the best bits always are when we've got our clients who give up their time to come and talk to us about what we've delivered for them. And a panel of three or four of them talking about the kind of journey they've gone on as a result of working with us. And some of it is massive high emotion. And you've had the whole room in tears over it. And that lasts a year quite comfortably of people just going, okay, this is why we do it.

40:17Just hearing it from, particularly when you hear it from someone who you don't know personally and just kind of realise the sort of power of what we do is very cool. It's difficult to facilitate though when I'm also in floods of tears. You talk. What are you talking about? Can we talk about this idea of being in control, being a leader? Because I must confess, right, I'm not someone who can do it. So I've created a couple of businesses, but both times hired a CEO to run the business because I think knowing your limitations is a really important part of being successful, right? So I can't answer this question because I don't do it.

40:57But you four do. so what would you say is the single most important ingredient you need to bring to the table as a leader i think i think you what you just said i think you don't give yourself enough credit i think you know you you know in that you you know in that is actually part of i i i focus on my strengths and outsource my weaknesses yeah and that's something i i will stand by and you know and i believe that is knowing when to step down you know knowing i talk about um people like like Rihanna never writes her music, right? But having the ability and talent to pick the right songs for you, that's great leadership because in that you're employing people.

41:36I definitely believe it's knowing what you can do, your limitations and bringing in those and empowering them because we're essentially glorified talent spotters, aren't we? As directors and owners of these businesses. Because we can't do it all by ourselves, but who are the people that we can put into spaces and create an environment for them to excel? thus excelling the business in which we've created. So maybe you're not such a bad leader. I don't know if you're so bad now. My imposter syndrome is melting away as we speak. Come on, give us some other great bits of... Well, I mean, I'm a co-owner, as I said, and it's for exactly that reason that I am very aware of my many limitations.

42:17There's one or two bits that I think I do well, but then everything else, I feel like exactly the kind of talent spot thing. And I made what was arguably one of the ballsiest calls right at the very start, which was bringing in a very good friend to co-own the business with me, which if that had gone wrong, we talked about kind of co-ownership. If that goes wrong, it's horrible. And it would have been horrific. The ramifications of that still would be actually if it went wrong now, but hopefully kind of seven years in it, you know, we've kind of proved it won't. But yeah, just knowing what you're good at and definitely knowing what you're not good at and covering it.

42:54The most successful businesses have all sorted that out. And anyone who is at the top of a business thinking they can do all of it is probably in trouble. What are you good at, Maggie? Oh, I was about to say I don't know. Humility? I think building a movement or like building people around something. I think for me that's really important that it's not just what I say goes and what I want happens. I think I spend a lot of time thinking about motivations, like how will that person get over here through their own actions. And I think because ultimately I think it's a lot stronger as a collective if everyone's pulling and you're kind of facilitating from behind.

43:46I think that's probably what I try to do most, but also with clarity of direction as well. That comes back down to, you know, building the strategy out and really working hard so that everyone now talks about their goals and about the pillars of the strategy that they're working to. You know, five years ago, it wasn't happening at all. people it was just a mishmash of let's let's do good stuff and win as many games as we can whereas now people talk about the goals they're trying to hit on a day-to-day basis they talk um to the pillars that they're working in and how they're going to try and help each other with their areas of work as well so i don't know i think that clarity is helpful as well with that pulling in in the same direction i don't think i've come across a leader a really good leader who's not either both a really good communicator and also being really organized sounds underrated but just you know the day-to-day I can't be a good leader but you know Clement you know like what you really need to get done do you know what I mean like to in order to achieve or like what you need to as a business or like you're able to prioritize and execute and I think um there's I guess others have touched upon like missions and driving teams but also like just always knowing at the start of a week or a day like I just need to get like this thing done how do you work out what the thing is it's for me it's just so obvious based on like making money surviving you know fundraising it's just there's always like out of the things there's always like those two three things you just have to keep moving um but yeah I just I think sometimes the the kind of the actual just being a really good executor or working for people who really are and realizing they're fantastic at like keeping their business moving forward it's kind of underrated but I think it's a really important part of leadership for me I think one of the hardest things just thinking about that is knowing what the thing is when things are going well because actually it's quite easy to drift so true you normally know what the thing is when things are tough so I totally agree with that so having the kind of discipline to do that, which I know I don't have enough of sometimes.

46:05You know, I'm definitely guilty of drifting a little bit when things are being pretty okay. This is cool. And then probably something happens that you get caught out on and think, oh, I need to get back and just focus on that. Because knowing that one thing for the day or whatever it is, is hard. And let me talk about something that I find frustrating. People, and this is a very modern phenomenon, right? You see it on other podcasts. You see it on a lot of Instagram and social media channels. It's this idea that we've all done this on our own. It's feeling like I'm the boss and look what I've achieved as an individual.

46:39And I interviewed Arnold Schwarzenegger recently and he said, never call me a self-made man. He said, I've been called a self-made man all my life. And then he proceeded to reel off the list of all of the people that have actually helped him become a self-made man, right? And we're having this conversation in partnership with BT because they know that what do businesses need? they need support they need secure reliable tech they need people right there to stand alongside them and look after them so if i was to ask the four of you who is it that has who has supported you who springs to mind and why are they so important my team are i've got like 60 odd staff across two sites and they they all i all try and you know have a little bit of information on what drives them outside of work try and bring their loves outside of work into work you know if someone's a graphic designer at uni cool help us create the artwork you know if someone's a chef or interested in food cool let's give you some kp shifts or whatever it is so we definitely the the team it's all about the team there is not one entrepreneur who's even sat there and coded themselves like you can't code yourself do you know what i mean um but yeah absolutely like but even down to like my people who create my website the websites from the beginning a guy called phil i've known for like 10 12 years and he's always when i worked with my old employer i brought him along the journeys created both my websites i've got these i've just got these individuals that i've just kept with me and it's just they do what they do amazingly well and i just manage the relationship i just make sure that we're there and we're cool and they get paid on time very important um but they enjoy it they have a good time while doing it so yeah absolutely like Like there is no way we can be doing what we're doing.

48:22And it starts and ends with us. It really doesn't at all. Support. Who's been vital on your journey? I would like to call out, we've got an investor called Sarah Drinkwater. A lot of investors say they're going to add value, but over the years I've learned that they don't. And it's very rare to find an angel investor who genuinely leans in and helps in practical hands-on ways when you really need them to. So whether that's introducing to other investors, giving you advice on what to do about hiring, she's just one of these people who can blend the hard-hitting, honest feedback when you need it with the emotional intelligence and the ability to step back and go quiet when you need some time.

49:11and yeah I just think women like her and some of some of the investors on our cap table have been by my side for years now and they don't get bored either I think a lot of people may invest at a time where it's exciting and interesting and then they sort of they're like a few years later they think oh you know I'm done now or you know I'm happy to sort of step back but she has consistently been there for the lowdown throughout the years. Super hero. I'll go. Laura Youngson is the co-founder of Ida Sports, which is a football boot company for women. Turns out women's feet are very different from men's feet.

49:50And upon realising this, she's set up this football boot company, which is just incredible. The reason I mention her is that she was one of the first people that was like, well, why not, Maggie? Like, go on. That person that kind of extends yourself beyond what you think you're capable of. I think she's been incredible for me outside of the club. Inside the club, there's an incredible woman that I managed to bring in who is just the perfect person to talk to when it comes to culture, values and high performance. Her name's Kelly Lindsay. She was the manager of the Afghanistan National Women's Team and was also involved in actually getting a lot of the Afghan female players out of the country when the Taliban took over just a couple of years ago.

50:32She just joined us at Lewis while she was also trying to figure that out. But she really understands culture and the way that feeling 100 % yourself is going to get the best out of you and really helped us at Lewis try and figure out what that means on a day-to-day basis. And then the last person, yeah, Lynn Burrell, has been the general manager inside the club. So she's been there right from when I started. In fact, she was the first hire. I was the second hire at the football club. since then we now have you know 20 34 people working at the club um and she's so resilient and tough and um is probably the person whose shoulder i'll cry on the most um and she you know she'll always give that good guidance and be like no no we're on the right track this is the right way to go i think everyone needs a lynn borrell in their life brilliant ed yeah they sound awesome um so two women um my wife so uh the boss the boss um so she actually was the person who help me make the leap she said to me you need to do this when i first decided to set the business up um and i think i would probably have bottled it if she hadn't done that she was like no you need to do it partly to get out of my hair but um it's clear that this is for you and so that kind of instilled that belief at the start um and then yeah mag's my uh my co-owner she's amazing We've got a brilliant relationship where we're very open and honest with each other.

51:57There's a lot of WhatsApp that goes on in the evenings, over the weekends, that kind of stuff. But yeah, I would not like to do it without her. So I'm really, really lucky to have that relationship. I want to just do a few quickfire questions if you're happy with these. What legacy would you hope to leave through your business? Women's voices being at the centre of healthcare research and drug development. Business owners having better lives. Nice. For me, other football clubs looking a little bit more like Lewis FC. Thank you, Maggie. Glenn, take care of the community and the rest will take care of itself.

52:34Biggest strength, greatest weakness? Greatest weakness, possibly giving some people too many chances. Greatest strength, giving people a good chance. Second chance. Pretty good. Ed? Biggest strength, probably emotional intelligence. Biggest weakness, confidence bordering on arrogance. You've kept it one under wraps. You've only seen me for an hour. Alice? I think my biggest strength is I'm pretty determined. You know, I won't give up. But then I do believe that your overstated strength can become a weakness. and for me I definitely have like tipped into a lot of overdrive and not looking up and seeing the options around me at times when I'm really challenged and just continuing to just carry on for probably too long.

53:29Glenn. Okay, biggest strength. I'm a disruptor. I'm definitely a disruptor. Weaknesses. I can be seen as a weakness. I just really love people if I'm honest and I quite like being naive and if I meet someone, I give them a boulder of trust and that's how I like to start off a relationship. So that could be seen as well. And the final question for all four of you, and there'll be many people listening to this who are working in business, but I think there'll be loads of people who dream of being where the four of you are now. And for the last few years, we've put some of the biggest and best known business names on this show.

54:14But actually, I think hearing from all four of you is a reminder that there's so much opportunity for so many people to be brave and to go and do this. What would all four of you leave as your kind of one final message to people, your one golden rule for finding success or for going it alone in business? Can I quote Dolly Parton? she said um find out how you find out who you are and do it on purpose and I just keep on coming back to that um and I think that as a as a teenager when you're going through school you're you're you're amongst your peers trying to be like each other trying to actually stay in the herd and then a little bit later you're somewhere else and you're still trying to figure out where you fit and actually maybe you don't fit maybe you just need to figure out who you are and then then you'll immediately feel much more comfortable with whatever steps you take next beautiful mine's really easiest you don't have to go it alone however you find other people to go on that journey with do it build it and they will come build it and they will come for sure yeah just that the most important story is the one that you tell yourself um you know whether that's so therefore it's all about your own expectations um so if you're set your expectations out and then give it a crack and it kind of nothing else really matters it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks it doesn't really matter if quote unquote it's successful or not if you've set out the right expectations for you and what you want to achieve really nice and i would add my final one if you'd all indulge me which is just do a favor for someone every opportunity you get because I think for too long we've had conversations in the world about the fact that business is hard-nosed and aggressive and unfair and unkind and every man or woman for themselves I think all five of us would agree the only way you can be successful in business is through care love collaboration lifting each other up shaking hands not shaking fists that that's the kind of conversation I think we need to have about business and I feel that's what we've had you know thank you all very much indeed

56:28Well, as we wrap up this conversation about business and entrepreneurship in association with BT Business, I just thought I would finish by sharing a few thoughts that I jotted down. I made a few notes about things that really stood out to me. I thought it was really interesting what Maggie spoke about, about a five-year plan and not having a five-year plan. And I sort of understand that. I think so often people talk about you have to have a long-term vision because vision drives decision. but I sometimes wonder whether the correct decision is impacted by the vision and that sometimes instead of thinking well where does that put me on the path to a five-year plan you're only able to deal with the information in front of you at that moment so just making the next right decision on a day-to-day basis is really important I think what you should then do and this is what I've certainly done over the years in my businesses is stop and look at where you are on your five-year journey but don't allow that five-year journey to dictate every decision that you're making along the way.

57:23I also loved when Clem spoke about community. I think that that is the secret sauce for 2024 and beyond. I think the days of trying to get billions of people to follow your journey are over. What you actually need is a group of really engaged, really interesting, really driven and passionate people who all feel the same way and want the same thing. And the community doesn't have to be huge, but the power of a community is amazing. And also Clem spoke, I've noted down here, about focusing on strengths and outsourcing your weaknesses. Like that is 100 % something that resonates with me. Like I know that I'm an ideas person.

57:59I know that I'm an energy giver. I know that I'm a creative. I know that I'm not a CEO. I don't organise. I'm not great at running teams. I find difficult conversations very difficult. I don't set KPIs and deliver on those. I just know where my weaknesses are. So I love what Clem said about focus on your strengths and outsource your weaknesses. I love the conversation about Ed saying that good people are everything. And I firmly believe that, you know, I actually think that every business is a recruitment business because what is a business? It isn't the bricks and mortar. It isn't the name. It isn't even what the business does.

58:33It's the people that are in it. And, you know, it spoke about 80 percent of the biggest challenges are people related. And I've spent my time in life, not really hiring people, but collecting people, just meeting really interesting people. I did it recently when I went on a family holiday. I met a guy and I've now brought him into the fold to do some work with us across the board. And I think that's the way to do it, to get a good understanding of who someone is rather than the qualifications they've got. And what about Alice saying that anger is a positive? I can relate to that. You know, I think that we're taught so often that anger is a negative emotion, but it isn't actually.

59:09You know, we say that envy is negative. Well, what's envy? It's seeing what someone else has and wanting it. We're told that you shouldn't feel imposter syndrome. Well, of course you should, because it means you're doing things that are challenging. And I love the fact that, you know, Alice has thrown something in there to the conversation that is going to challenge people, which is that anger can be a positive. You can use it as a strength, you know. People get their energy sources from different places and it doesn't matter where you get it from, as long as you've got that energy. I really hope that you enjoyed listening to this conversation.

59:37Thank you for checking out High Performance. BT, thank you for partnering with us. Thank you to our amazing guests in this conversation. And as for you, I hope that it's delivered you a bit of inspiration, some food for thought, so that you can go and find your own version of high performance. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you again soon.

1:00:13Thank you.