Carlos Sainz: Inside My Ferrari Exit, Red Bull Rumours and Why I Believe In Williams (E361)

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance App. Available now, Roman Kemp, the broadcaster, opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health. Disappointed, frustrated. Before the surgery, you are full of doubts. For some reason, they've decided this is my character building year. I received a phone call. I went from believing I was going to be in Ferrari for a while, suddenly Luis is replacing me. It never occurred to me that that could happen. Every athlete to thrive, They need to be in a team where they feel loved in a way or they feel everyone is behind them. That's what makes me smile now being in Williams.

0:38That is the voice of Formula One driver Carlos Sainz, this week's guest on High Performance. He invited me over to Monaco for an exclusive conversation that will take you inside the most intense, political and challenging chapter of his F1 career. because Carlos is about to reveal really for the first time what actually happened when Ferrari picked up the phone and told him he was going to leave. He also shares openly why he was turned down by Red Bull, why that was one of his toughest moments, and then how he managed to reset his thinking to embark on a new project with Williams. And when talking of Williams, he tells us how soon James Vowles thinks they might win the Formula One world title and how quickly he thinks they might do it.

1:18He also shares in detail how he found being Max Verstappen's teammate, at Toro Rosso, and that is very interesting. The personal rules that he set to stay professional, even when he wanted to lash out. And I think you'll enjoy what he has to say about family pressures and the lessons he learned from his mum, who means a great deal to him. Oh, and when he says F1 is, in his words, the most political sport on the planet, he absolutely means it. Please, if you love conversations about Formula One, hit follow on Apple or on Spotify. It means we can attract more incredible guests and it means that you never miss an episode.

1:51As we welcome Carlos Sainz to High Performance.

1:58Carlos, welcome to High Performance. Thank you very much. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. I'm sure you get asked to do a lot of podcasts, a lot of shows, a lot of interviews. Why did you say yes to this one? Yeah, you're right. Nowadays, I think podcasts are a bit the order of the day. I think it's an industry that is growing massively, but I actually enjoy it a lot. I actually listen to a lot of podcasts and I like how it gives me the opportunity to maybe express myself a little better. I always say I almost speak too much. I elaborate a bit too much and maybe the podcast format is the right one for me in that sense.

2:32I like talking about sports, fitness, sports psychology, motorsports. Obviously, I guess we're going to talk about a bit on F1. But yeah, if there's any of these topics, I'm up for a good conversation. Why don't we start then with the sports psychology? Because you've been through the most incredible 18 months. Challenging without any doubt, pretty turbulent. I'm sure there were some difficult and dark moments. How are you doing now? I'm in a very happy place right now. In Williams, I found a family that is working towards, I think, a very challenging target, which is making Williams competitive again.

3:05I think we're on the right path. I think if you look at the last five, six months of this team, it's been incredibly good. And I think it surprised more than a few people out there. That gives me the happiness, but also the tranquility that I've chosen well about my future. Because last year at this stage, I was still thinking about where I was going to be next year and how my life is going to turn out to be in my after Ferrari life. It was a difficult moment. But if you would have told me a year ago that this is how life would turn out to be, I would actually be very happy. So do you think you're a better driver and a better person for what you've been through?

3:43For sure, the most challenging moments of your life, like the one I had last year, they force your personality, they force your character and they force you to take steps. What I struggle sometimes is with decision making. It takes a lot of courage to take actually a decision. Sometimes you almost wait for life to start going one way or another. So life guides you towards one place or the other. But there's like a checkpoint, no, that you say, okay, now I need to take a decision. And this is what happened to me last year. It was time to make that decision. I had to take it. I took Williams as a decision and it's made me mature because it was such an important moment of my life.

4:24Let's talk then about how you got to the point where you had to make a decision regarding Williams. Can we rewind to the moment you found out you were leaving Ferrari? Yes. So I think it was around end of January or February. I was in the middle of my training preparation for the 2024 season. I was hopeful that the Ferrari was going to be a competitive car. I had done everything in December and January, obviously, to prepare myself for that season. Contract negotiations with Ferrari were a bit stalled in a weird way because we were talking since October to renew my contract. They kept postponing the point of signing and the point of coming to an agreement.

5:03But I never felt suspicious and I never felt like it was not going to happen because every feedback that I was getting was, we're going to continue for sure. This is just going to take only a couple hours to agree to the economics side of things and the two or three things we need to agree on, on your future contract. But it's going to be an easy contract and we will do it very quickly. And I was like, okay, okay. So I just went into the winter with that mentality of it will get sorted before race one of the 24 season. And suddenly in the middle of January, end of January, I receive a phone call and they suddenly tell me the news.

5:38I heard from a friend that called me. I was completely shocked. I went from believing I was going to be in Ferrari for a while to suddenly Luis is replacing me and now I need to, what am I going to do now? It never occurred to me that that could happen. and it was a bit shocking, but it took me a good week to accept it and to assimilate it. You never get too much of a reaction from me. I'm, I think, quite level-headed in that sense, but that gave me a bit of a kick. And I think it made me a better athlete, a better driver. And what came out of me in March, April, May was probably the best version of myself as a racing driver to date.

6:16So for people who are struggling in their own lives with other people's opinions of them, and it's derailing them, causing them problems. What was the mindset change that you went through where you went from total shock that you've been released by Ferrari to right, now I'll show you. Here we go. For me, if there's nothing you can do, which at that point there was nothing I could do, there was zero, zero chance. The contract was signed, I was out. Next thing, what is the next possible thing that I can do? Look at different options, my next options. Obviously, I called everyone. If you have a 5-10 % chance, I would still try and fight for it.

6:53But the moment you have zero chance, you need to move on and you need to sit for your next option and try and prove yourself. And you scored the most points you've ever scored in the Formula 1 season last season. Nine podiums, two wins? I don't know the stats. Those are, I think they're right. Thank you for the stats. I just know I started the season very strong in Bahrain. I made a podium in the first race and I went to Jeddah and then my appendix decided it was the right time in my career to show up and the appendix infection show up I had to miss that race And are you thinking at that point hold on I need all the races I can get right now to show the world what I can do That is exactly what I thought Life is hitting me hard for some reason in 2024 For some reason they've decided this is my character building year And I took it a bit like that.

7:47Someone up there has decided this is the year to give me a bit of a hard time. I need to fight back. I remember having the appendix surgery and having to watch a race in the box with the team. I decided to walk into the paddock that day still limping. But I was like... Why did you want to come back and show your face that same day? Because I went to actually help Oli. I went to a race to sit down with my engineers and help Oli to try and help the team. And I said, you guys decided I cannot continue with this team, but I'm going to show you my worth apart from just driving fast cars, you know, and driving as fast as I can.

8:25And I said, what can I do? And I actually went to the paddock that day and said, I'm going to use this as an opportunity to see how my engineers communicate with Oli, what kind of screens they're seeing, how are they saying things. And I'm actually going to be a third engineer for them to maybe learn. if I was only in the car, what kind of information I would need to get in this exact moment. And I remember sitting next to Ricardo Adami and Ricardo Corto and Callum, my three engineers, and telling them, if this was me, I would need you to tell me this breaking point. I would need you to tell me this about strategy, this.

9:01And I used this as an opportunity to become better. And it was actually a very interesting experience, but also to show to Ferrari, look, this is also what I do. Come to the paddock, help the team, even if I know I'm not going to be here next year.

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11:00See, I think sometimes when life is going really well, it's so easy to take it for granted, right? The fact you'd had something big snatched away from you, it almost sounds to me like it had left you thinking, do you know what, I'm going to show you how professional I am, how thoughtful I am, how hardworking I am, how talented I am. Was that the mindset? For me, it was mainly the professional side of things. Like, I understand how a driver with a big ego would just turn Ferrari apart that year and maybe like become a bit political or become a bit of an infection inside the team. Did you ever think about doing that?

11:34Of course. Like my demo, you know, we all have an angel. And the demon is like, you know, there's so many things I would like to say now or do or change. But my angel was, let's say, more powerful at the time and said, no, don't be that guy. Be the professional guy, the guy that is just going to give absolutely everything until the last race for this team and leave this team behind and give everyone the mechanics. And there's hundreds, thousands of people working in that team that have nothing to do with that decision that I owe them my maximum professional level and a good year for the team, for myself, for everyone.

12:14And I'm going to be a professional guy and I'm going to be the good guy, not the one that wants to set this place on fire. See, I love the fact that you were thinking about the wider team in your behavior, but also you could definitely sit here now and say things to us that would create some headlines or cause some problems for Ferrari. You know, this is a team telling you, oh, it's an easy contract, it'll take two hours and then suddenly telling you you're out, right? But also, if you did do that, what does that do for you? How does that improve you and your career? Do you know what I mean? We always take half an hour, an hour to fall asleep.

12:45You're having those conversations with yourself. But every year, every day of the year, how should I approach this? No, control yourself. Be the good guy. And it's tough, but it's character building, as I said. And I came back after that appendix surgery and won that race. And I think I won it because of that attitude, like staying positive. because it would have been so easy to become negative and to curse the year, to curse the moment, to curse life about how bad it's treating you and remain negative. And I think that positivity is what helped me to win the race of the comeback. And at that point, when you're winning that race, are you winning it for yourself?

13:25Out of all the four wins that I have, that was more of the personal one. But for me and for my family, like my core team, because they are the ones that saw me suffer, let's say, in February. They are the close people that I showed my weakness, let's say. They saw me sad. They saw me disappointed, frustrated. And they also saw me the recovery and the success. And they were the ones that helped me, trying to guide me towards what's the best thing doing. And when we came back from the appendix surgery and the recovery, my dad helped me a lot in that with doing all the right steps to recover as quick as possible as an athlete.

14:05And we won that race. I felt like this is a bit our win, you know, like as a team. And it felt great. It's honestly, I think today, one of the happiest moments of my life. Isn't it funny that a few months after one of the lowest moments of your career, you can get one of the highest, one of the greatest? It is. But I think what made that moment great was also the appendix low. Because you can be down here. Then I was up here with the podium of Barena. And I say, okay, now I'm B3 in the championship, getting my season started. I feel great with the car. I had really good testing. I knew what to do with the setup, with my driving, with my engineers.

14:43But then life hits you again and you say, am I going to recover from this? Like, how am I going to be in Australia? Am I going to be free again? And when I come back to the car, am I going to be competitive? Like I used to be before the surgery. You are full of doubts. But then come back and straight win is like a massive high again, no? So it's like, it's life. Honestly, life doesn't stop to amaze me in how much it can change. And it helps me now to see things with a bit more philosophy and apply a bit more count to things. Let's talk then about what else was going on whilst you were winning these races, suffering with your appendix.

15:19You were also looking for a new team at that time. So was your approach to allow the people around you to have those conversations? Or did you want to be part of the discussions with a new team from the very beginning? I was part of all the discussions until the Wednesday before the Grand Prix. And I said, on Wednesday, leave me alone until Sunday. We don't talk about contracts and teams and future until the Sunday after the race or the Monday. When I come back to Monaco, I call you and you tell me what happened in the paddock during those four days. So applying a bit that philosophy, I think it helped me keep relatively good focus during the race weekends.

15:54also it meant that from Monday to Wednesday or Monday till the next week I was quite busy on the phone and strategizing the next steps with the next teams how to negotiate and I like having an involvement and the older I become the more involved I am with with my future stuff but I think that philosophy allowed me to do still a good year in F1. And before you made the decision to go with Williams and I can't wait to find out what it was that James Vow said that convinced you that that was the decision to take. Some of the biggest teams in F1 were looking at you, right? Mercedes, Red Bull. Are you able to understand why neither of those worked out?

16:34Again, that's a frustration and a feeling that I was really struggling to put behind because I could see at some point it was not happening. I could see and understand why, but I still don't want to believe it that it was not happening. One of the reasons I took the decision so late was because I was still hopeful that maybe potentially I would still have a competitive car for 25. Because that was one of the things I really wanted to do is to win again in 25 to prove to everyone I still belong here for podiums and winning races. But that made things a bit more tricky because during all those three or four months, I would sometimes get a hope that maybe one of these two teams was a possibility.

17:22But then another low, another hope, another low. At the same time that I'm going to Monaco to race for Ferrari and going to my home Grand Prix in Spain to race for Ferrari. So in between those races, there was all these up and downs, you know, and that is training for the athlete for sure. Was it stressful? Very stressful. I'm lucky that I don't get too affected in my sleep about these things. I always sleep my six to eight hours, no problem. I could tell my dad, my manager, even my mom called me more often than what she used to, like to ask me, are you okay? With the latest news, are you okay?

17:55I mean, like, yeah, yeah, it's my girlfriend. She could see I was a bit more stressed, you know, and everyone around me could tell. But I was like, don't worry, I'm okay, I'm okay. I can deal with it. But yeah, it was stressful. Yeah. And Red Bull didn't happen because of your history with Max and him not wanting you in the team? This is what people have concluded or what people are trying to explain it or to understand it. The only thing I can say is I genuinely get on well with Max. This is what people don't see from the outside. We had a rivalry in our first year in Formula 1 in Toroso, but it was a relatively healthy rivalry in terms of him and me, the way we used to go about racing.

18:38and now we get on really well. So if that's the reason, I don't understand why they wouldn't want me next to Max because I think we would actually be a very strong pairing in 4-1. And I think in life, it's so easy to look at what you haven't got, which is great. But it's also important to look at what you haven't got, which is not so great. Like, look at what's happened in that team since. Look at the struggles that those drivers have had in that second car and the challenges of driving in that team. Like, it doesn't mean that just because you'd have gone there and it's a fast car, everything would have been perfect, right?

19:09No, exactly. I think everyone's having a really tough time being Max's teammate. I can only say that when I was Max's teammate, I didn't have this tough time. I was obviously incredibly surprised with how quick he was, with how he's an insane driver. I mean, he's probably, he's going to go out to be one of the best ever in history if he's not already won. But that first year together, since then has gave me the confidence to know I can be up against anyone. I've been teammates with Charles, with Lando, with Nico Wolkenberg. Very quick guys. And probably the best in the sport. Now Alex, incredibly fast also.

19:45And it just makes me want to be up against the best still. I know I can take it. And I know I've been successful in the past. See, I saw, it was a quote from your dad, wasn't it? Saying that he would have liked to have seen you in the same car as Max Verstappen. And I can get why you would want that. I don't know when he said that, but we've already had it. I think we've both moved on a lot as drivers. Probably Max has evolved massively as a driver, but also I have. So it's impossible to know. We will probably never know. I can only tell you if the opportunity would have came, I probably would have taken it.

20:20Would it have been the right thing for my career? Or how would life turn out from that point onwards? We will never know. So it's not worth discussing. What I know is that I needed also a team that fully backed me. I know what my abilities are as a driver. And I feel like in that sense, Williams has given me the right environment to thrive with all these abilities. And I think good things are starting to happen also because of that. And when you see the evolution of the car, the evolution of the team and everything, I think it's just going to get better because they have given me the right environment.

20:54And were you ever close to Mercedes? Not really. We obviously talked a lot with Toto at the time and everyone, but I was an option for sure. I was considered how close. I can go and ask Toto but I think he's very happy with Jimmy. And before you finally joined Williams, as you reflect now on that last year before you made the decision, what was the lowest moment, the toughest moment for you? Apart from February? Apart from the actual phone call from Ferrari, yeah. Probably one of those moments where I finally realized I was not going to be in a top team. Yeah. And I understood And I told myself, Carlos, that's not happening.

21:32Take the decision where you go next. And what's the shortest route to winning again? Like the route is going to be longer than what you thought. Because when I, when honestly, when Ferrari didn't renew me, I was like, I can still be in a competitive car for 25. Then it took three or four months. And then there was a point where I said, I'm not going to be in a race winning car for 25. That was probably a second lowest moment. But then it completely changed my mindset. and I managed to see it as a positive. What if finally I go to a place where I'm given the right protagonism and the right leadership, you know, to actually help the team move forward?

22:09And I felt Williams and James were very good at selling that to me in a very good way and giving me that environment to say, I'm actually very looking forward to being in that environment and feeling, you want to use the word love in the right way, but feeling loved in the right way. And that's what makes me smile now being in Williams. So you feel loved? Very much. I love that. Every athlete to thrive, they need to be in a team where they feel loved in a way, or they feel everyone is behind them, no? And when you see Luis with Mercedes, you see Max with Red Bull, Charles with Ferrari, Sebastian in Red Bull, all the big success stories, you are in an environment where everyone is 100 % fully flat out behind you.

23:00And I feel like in Williams we've managed to achieve a situation where both Alex and myself we are all one as a team pushing forward. And I think this is very powerful. And I think that's normally where success happens in Formula 1. I think it was probably also a year that really showed you how political sport can become. Right? F1 mainly. Okay. I don't think there's any other sport that is as political as F1. You know football. Football can be political, but nowhere near as Formula 1. Formula 1, there's, for some reason, a level of politics that I don't understand. The one thing of the sport that I hate.

23:38So there are so many fans that love F1. They love the racing. They love the wheel-to-wheel. They love the drivers. They love the characters. When you talk about politics, what kinds of things are you talking about? What makes sense for a team to have in the two seats might not be the right thing for the team. It makes sense, but it's not the right thing. Or there's other things coming behind the driver. It doesn't matter if it's sponsors, money that makes one a bit more attractive than the other. So it's not purely performance. Performance brings you 80 % of the cake. But there's another 20 % maybe that it's not only performance.

24:18speed. Or let's say if I am equally as weak as some other driver, that 20 % of what makes the difference to go to a team or not, or to be chosen over the other driver. And I feel like this is only happening in Formula One. How do you operate in a sport where the politics is something that you detest so much? Because it's the sport that I love and no one's perfect. This sport is not perfect in so many ways but it's my life and it's where I want to be my next years and you just one of my favorite phrases get on with it just get on with it just there's things like don't dwell too much on it don't get depressed by it just get on with it and next next target it's a lovely latin phrase amor fati which means accept your fate yeah this is what's coming and there's nothing I can do about it.

25:11So I accept my fate. But I think what it does do, though, is it informs you about the decision that you need to make next. So I'm guessing from what you've said, you didn't want to join a team that was political. You wanted to join a team where you felt like you had equal status with the other driver. You felt like you were joining a team that weren't just using you to fill a gap. They genuinely wanted you. So what did James Vals say or what did you see at Williams that made you realize that this could be your home? Well, first of all, the fact that James came to me in December in Abu Dhabi race, well before anything happened and said, I think you're the perfect person to help lead Williams towards my target and my mission, which is to bring Williams to be competitive again.

25:56What, before you'd been released by Ferrari? This was well before, two months before anything of that happened. And did he know? He tried to get me. Do you think he knew something was going on or not? No, no, not at all. He genuinely, he knew I was out of contract at the end of that year. I know you're probably going to renew your contract with Ferrari if everything goes well. But just to let you know, I'm here. And Williams is here and we want you. And that gave me already a good impression. Obviously, he's seen in me things that maybe the others are not seeing or are not ended up seeing or he's looking maybe at more detail.

26:33What did he say? you're going to have to be modest here and tell us about your talent. He's very analytical and quite statistical and I don't like talking about myself but I think You're on the wrong show In social media there's a lot of this Carlos Sainz effect which every team that I've gone to every team has improved quite a lot quite significantly I must say it's actually a stat that I didn't know but I feel quite proud of and I think my work ethic and And the way I give feedback to a team and the way I try to improve the team, in combination, obviously, with my speed and my talent, I think he saw me the perfect formula, you know, perfect guy to try and help Williams in that trajectory.

27:16And I think that's what he saw, that statistic in particular. And he tells me still nowadays that that's what strikes him by surprise or more importantly, and I think that's why he came. But it sounds like, from what you've said, that's all lovely, but you need a fast car. And initially you were thinking, well, maybe I'm not going to join Williams because I want to get into a car that's going to win races. So once you knew you weren't, what about Williams and their setup and their leadership? Some specific things that you saw and you thought, we're on the right track, we can win in this car. For me, first of all, the number one thing we already talked about is the team environment.

27:54The second is the speed of the car. I saw, even they were a bit overweight, Given the results and everything, I said, this car can be already that year quite competitive. And obviously talking with James at the time, they had a big upgrade coming for the second half of the season. And he gave me some numbers about the 2025 car that I was like, those are good numbers. But more importantly, more than this, for me, it was the feeling of seeing that they have a very strong leader with James and the first people below him. people that are incredibly motivated, people that are incredibly driven in trying to help Williams come back to a dog.

28:33And I always use this example. I remember when I left McLaren in 2020 to go to Ferrari, I left that team feeling this team is going to win at some point. Andra Stella, Zach Brown, Pit Prodromo. It's all names that when I left McLaren, I said if I could take them with me to my next team, I would take them with me because they are leaders. Everyone in team is behind them. Everyone in the team likes them. These people are going to win championships. Four years later, McLaren won in 2024. And then I remember telling to myself, do I see in Williams something similar with the people that I'm talking to?

29:12Are the people similar to these characteristics of Andrea, Sack and company? I said, yes, these are the closest people that I can find to that. And I took the decision based on people, based on James, based on the management, based on people I was talking to, rather than based in numbers. And what are those characteristics? What are those behaviors for people who are maybe asking themselves if they're working in a winning environment? What do they look like, those people? For me, it's people that only have one target in their life in that moment, which is to win again and be competitive again.

29:48That they are doing the changes inside the team to create the right team culture and team environment. which is now I think a fundamental thing in Formula One, you have in Formula One 1 ,000 people per team. If you don't have these 1 ,000 people pushing exactly in the same direction, how are you going to achieve the last two or three tenths of performance that you need to win? You need every single human being in those 1 ,000 people to want to give everything they have for the team, for their leaders, for themselves, for the drivers. And I felt who are good leaders right now in Formula One because a team needs, I believe they need good drivers, good leaders, good references.

30:28And I feel Williams had it. And how does James do that? How does he create that culture? Super honest and open with their people. I think it's something an employee values a lot is when you are open and honest and you are able to do mistakes and not get punished by them. You feel secure in your working environment. There is no blame culture in the team or finger pointing when you do something. Why? Because if you do a mistake, you're comfortable enough to put your hand up and say, this one is on me. I messed up. I wanted to say something else. I take responsibility. And James is very good at making people feel comfortable to make mistakes, as long as they don't make it twice.

31:15It's the same as always. It's Formula One, okay? You cannot be too nice also with people. But once we do a mistake, we learn from it, we move on. But I feel in F1, there's so much pressure that people are very scared of making mistakes. And that almost holds people and holds talent back because of the pressure environment we're in. And you need to give drivers, you need to give engineers, you need to give mechanics to release that pressure, knowing that they need to try the best. And even if they do mistakes, not because of being in F1, you're going to be finger pointed and you're going to be fired, which is important, I think.

31:47You've listened to the James Valls episode of High Performance. One of the things he says, it's so interesting you talk about failure because he says that he walked in and he said, break everything, find the limit of everything in the team. Now, that's not someone who wants them to break things and wants them to get things wrong. But it's someone who wants them to find where the limit is of themselves, of the parts, of the factory, of the processes. To question everything. I think he's questioning whether Williams is doing the right thing in every single area. and saying, are we top level in every single area of, you name it, marketing?

32:21Are we top level in marketing? Sponsorship, are we top level in more sponsorship? Are we top level in wind tunnel execution? In how long it takes a front wing to be created? No, we are not top level on any of this, but we want to be. So let's break it and let's rebuild it. And I think this is why the team is progressing at the rate it's progressing. I mean, we were ninth last year in the constructors. This year, we're already fifth. And even in some qualifying, we have been able to beat the Ferraris, a Mercedes or two, a Red Bull. So the team is progressing quickly. Did you ask him how quickly he thinks they can win a race?

32:56Yes. And he gave me a very conservative date, which I don't know if I can reveal or not, but it's more towards 27, 28, knowing that 26 is the key year to take a step forward in the right direction. One of the things I really value from James was that he told me, don't expect much from 25. say, okay, we will have a more competitive, but we are not going to be, at best, we are leading the midfield in 25. I was like, at least he's telling me the truth. You know, he's being open and honest. And I really value that. Well, you've just left a team that were telling you one thing and did something different, right?

33:30So you probably at that point just wanted honesty from your leader. Yeah. Like, even if it's bad news, tell me it's bad news. Don't tell me it's good news and then it's bad news. So would you agree with 27-28 or from what you've seen, do you think it can be 26? I believe it. I'll leave it there. That seems soon. Obviously, you can't win a race unless your driver is flying. So I'd love to know the secret to going into a team and putting your mark on a team fast. Like, what was the first thing that you said on the day that you were unveiled at the factory to your mechanics, your engineers and your team?

34:07One of the first things I said is that I needed every single individual to give the absolute maximum. I said, how many qualifyings are we going to be outqualified by 5 ,000s, 10 ,000s? Like this year already, I think there's been a few qualis where 20 ,000s would have made you go through Q1 or 1 ,10th would have made you instead of D9, P6. And I truly believe every single thing that we do to that car makes it go quicker. Not only my driving, but with every piece that is manufactured every way we engineer the car with the mechanics, with the data. Like there's hundreds, tens, thousands. And if you add up all of that, you achieve the lap time that we are able to achieve.

34:55I remember coming from Ferrari also, the level of detail it was put to every single thing in Ferrari was quite impressive. And it's one of the reasons why Ferrari is so competitive in F1. Like the passion the mechanics had for the team the engineers could go against it because they almost feel too responsible for Ferrari. But I love seeing a team with passion. And I think it's important for everyone in that team to realize it's Williams. Williams used to win all the races in 94. And Williams is one of the historical teams. Like, now you're part of that team. Let's be passionate about this team and let's not just be a normal worker in this team.

35:37letting time go by, getting my salary and going home. Let's actually feel passionate about our job and feel responsible and accountable for every single thing that we do. Because I think this creates a good working environment. This creates momentum. And momentum in Formula One, I think, is everything. Once you build momentum, the fans come with you, the sponsors come with you, and the results just come, they flow. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favourite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS.

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38:07But also, you've described in the past that your life's project is to become the world champion, right? You're now 30. So when you say, don't just turn up to work, like deliver every minute of every day. I imagine that you probably have the image of that clock ticking in your head. And you know that it needs to be 100 % now, 100 % of the time. But being world champion is my purpose. What keeps me waking up in the morning to go cycle at 7 a.m. and get fit, go to the factory, go to meet my engineers, go to a simulator, the days that you're tired and jet lag. And you don't want to do so many laps in the simulator, but there's three setups that you want to try.

38:45That's what drives me. I still think I have a lot of good years ahead of me, but I would like it to be as soon as possible. Like when you want something, you want it as soon as possible. And the championship, I want it as soon as possible. But yeah, even if I had a six-year contract with Williams, it's not like I'm happy achieving it on the sixth year. No, the earlier I achieve a win, a podium with Williams, the better. I just want to be competitive with this team as soon as possible. Would you be disappointed if you weren't world champion, even if you'd given everything in every race and every session and every day at work?

39:16I think the disappointment would come if I knew I've had a championship winning car and I haven't won. That you could be disappointed. It could happen. And it's happened to a lot more drivers than not. Because in the end, world champions, you can count them. There are not many. And to be one of them, it must be incredibly difficult. And if I never have a championship winning car and I retire from Formula 1 without winning, but I've given everything to win, I'm okay. The day that that championship winning car arrives, I'll give my absolute everything to win that championship, you know. But let's see how life turns out to be.

39:53let's talk about your new teammate at Williams Alex Albon how does one driver who's joining a team let the other driver know that they're on their way do you ping them a text before the news breaks I think so I think I talked with Alex just before the news broke I cannot remember but I already knew Alex I had talked with him in the paddock I remember a few times like are you coming or not and I was like probably I think so we always have those kind of conversations in the drivers parade or events that we do with F1 That's what you talk about on the driver's parade. I've always wondered. Yeah. Sometimes.

40:27If it's silly season, we talk a bit about silly season and I think everyone at the time was asking me where are you going? What are you going to do? And I must have talked with him about it. So you're basically like all the other Formula 1 fans around the world. You're just talking about which driver is going where during silly season. A little bit, yeah. And then you go and talk about the other weekend or the other race or how quality went. But sometimes you do talk about silly season. there are some teams and we both know who the drivers are and who the teams are where the drivers need to be at logheads with each other to get the best out of themselves right they need that friction i get the impression that you and alex are not like that and actually to get the best out of each other it's a really great relationship if i got that right it is but don't underestimate that even alex and myself when we put the helmet on we want to beat each other as much as any other teammate in the grid it's just when we take our helmets off yeah we sit on that meeting and we give feedback about the car.

41:22A good thing that we managed to do is leave the ego aside, leave your personal interest aside and say, how do we make this car quicker as soon as possible? Again, it's everything as soon as possible, no? And for that, I'm more honest than I would be with him or other teammates about what I feel on the car. And he's more honest with me of probably the past of the car and why the car has ended up at this point. And by sharing these things, me with previous experiences of other teams and him sharing his previous experience with that car. I think we were able to take conclusions and say, okay, this is happening because of this, so let's tell the team this so they can improve it.

42:00And I think it's working really well because on track we still are as competitive as any other drivers on the grid and we want to beat each other and all the other 19 drivers. Out of the car, honestly, we are very honest and the most open we've been with any other teammate, I think. Is that right? I think so. We're both at a level of maturity where we know probably we can afford that for our medium-term success. We both feel comfortable in Williams' environment. We both feel comfortable enough to know Alex Carlos. This is the shortest way, shortest path to making a podium, winning a race. So let's just take it and do it that way.

42:42And how would that compare to your mindset when you first started out in Toro Rosso? It was the opposite. it. It was a year to prove yourself and only think about yourself try and beat Max Max trying to beat me and see who's better. If you win you maybe go to Red Bull if you manage to shine and not win you stay in Toro Rosso and you stay in F1 and you make a career if you get destroyed or you lose you're out of Formula 1. It's two opposites that's why the atmosphere we were put into in Toro Rosso was to lock horns with Max immediately because that's what I love Toro Rosso I love that team but That team up until recent years has always been a playground for put the two drivers there, see who's better to jump to Red Bull.

43:26The problem is though, you're creating like a toxic environment where it's super competitive with two drivers who are at the point in their careers where they're the least able to deal with that. Exactly. No criticism because that team works well. It delivers great drivers to Formula One. It did with Sebastian. It did with Max. It still now has Isaac doing great, Liam recovering from his Red Bull episode. It still serves its purpose. But the reality is that you're always going to lock horns with your teammate there. And especially at the time, two rookies. At the same time, like we were Max and me, we were always going to lock horns, like you say.

44:05Was that mentally challenging for you? It was probably the most intense years of my life. Yeah, for sure. Like I remember so many things of that year that was so intense. I was 20 at the time. I think Max was 16, 17. We had the mental energy to deal with that level of intensity, but I remember not the level of pressure, the level of detail. We were looking at things and every session, every FP1, we were going for it like crazy. Like for me, FP1 was qualifying. I wanted to be in every FP1, in every FP2, in every FP3. I remember we were both really quick on the wet. We both had the fame be very good on the wet in previous categories.

44:46So it was like, okay, let's see who's quicker in wet in Formula 1. And FP1 in Suzuka, full wet, go out in intermediate tires, aqua planning like crazy, just to try and show that in the first wet session of my life in Formula 1, without knowing the track, I was quicker than Max and vice versa. He was quicker than me. So we were always trying to show each other. I remember I did P1 in Suzuka in FP1 on my first ever session in the web in F1 because I took the risks that I shouldn't have taken. I remember leading a session with Arturo Rosso in 2015 in web. And that being one of the highlights of my year.

45:22Now I'm thinking about FP1s. I'm like, build it up. That sounds exhausting. It was honestly exhausting. It was nice because it's exactly what builds you. Like that has built. Yeah. Like that level of competitiveness, that level of pressure, it builds you. And I wouldn't change it. I would still do it all over again. I think it did me a lot of good things. Rewind a year. Yeah. And you've got two choices. You have the year you've just had, including all the lessons, all the learnings, all the growth. Seeing Formula One for whatever it is. Whatever I have now. Like I would repeat it all over again.

46:04I wouldn't change. I think the point where I am now is a good point to be and I think good things are going to happen. Isn't that great though when you think back to that confused and 100 % sad guy from 18 months ago? 100%. That leaves me even more confident about what there is to come and the point that I'm in my life and my career. As you've matured and you've got a partner and you're an uncle and your parents are aging and you want to spend more time with them, how important is it for you to understand what Formula One is, that it's amazing, but it can't be everything? It is important. Unfortunately for me, like I want to win too much.

46:47I don't know how to explain it to someone that is not competitive or maybe as competitive as an athlete is or as I am. But the day has 24 hours, 23 I spend them thinking about Formula One. Still at 30 years old. It's my priority and I just love it so much that I cannot stop thinking about it. I cannot stop thinking about my data, my setup. What am I going to tell my engineer? Tomorrow I go to a simulator. What am I experimenting with that? I'm going to suggest. Like, I cannot stop thinking about it. It's weird. I don't know if you've ever had this obsession with something, but it's an obsession.

47:19And I've been obsessed in years. I think I'm going to be obsessed for a while. At the same time, I've also learned how to say, okay, I'm being too much. Let's give attention to other things like my girlfriend, my family, my friends, give myself time to disconnect. But at the same time, as soon as I stop disconnecting, my brain goes immediately back to… I've spoken, as you know, to Fernando Alonso on this show who said that the cost really of his career is not having a family at the moment. You know, I had a chat recently with Lando Norris who talked about being lonely, despite the fact he races in Formula One.

47:55What is the cost of this kind of life, this intense competitiveness? I think the cost is mainly time with your loved ones, quality time with your people, especially because I do realize that sometimes I think I'm having quality time, but I'm not so present. And that is something you regret, you know, because you're too affected by your previous race or too pointed or too focused on your next one. And you realize that the time that you think you're having quality time, your head is still a bit busy with other stuff. And I'm trying to give myself the exercise to be a bit more present. Whenever I'm having time with my loved ones, I focus on being present.

48:40That's how, which is a bit of a weird, weird thing to do. And have you found true friendship in Formula One? Or does that exist outside of F1 for you? I found really good people, very interesting people. Friend for me is a very powerful word. a friend for me is someone I would tell secrets, you know? No, I haven't met anyone that I would tell my secrets if that's the question. So I found really good people but not, I haven't made true friends. I think Lando, I think when we stop being rivals and when we are both 40, 45, I think we will be very good friends. Like we do get on very well. But until you're rivals, you get on well with him, you get on, I get on very well with Charles.

49:25But the word friend for me is so powerful that I'm not able to use it with someone that is not my best friend. Those for me are my friends. Landa tells me he's much better than you at Paddle. That's why he's not my best friend. No, I'm joking. No, I'm better. Like there's one thing I can say about myself is that I play very well. Yeah. More or less every sport. Like I can do very well at sports. I think that's my talent. And if your dad gave you maybe a love for motorsport and an understanding of operating at the highest level and a deep competitive instinct, what did your mom give you that's equipped you for this life that you live?

50:07My mom gave me, I think, the right environment at home to grow as a man. I think he educated me to be a man, but also always trying to behave like a gentleman with my sisters. like having two sisters also shows you how to treat a woman from the beginning and how to act with your sisters being the protective man, even if I was the middle child. Our father figure was at home, but not very often. So there was a time where he would leave home for almost 280 days. That's more than in F1 right now. So they had a lot of testing in Raleigh. So basically my mom raised past three a lot of the times. And she also made me see how important the mom figure is, picking us up from school at 4.30 in the evening, taking us to school at 9.

51:00Yes, she was lucky to have that free time, but she also chose to take care of the children the full time. She wanted to be with us the full time. And now that I'm 30, I ask her, it's like, it must be exhausting to have three kids. Like, I sit now with my sister that has one and is non-stop with the kid. Imagine having three of similar age. It's a job. It takes your full time, no? And it's badly paid as well. And it's zero pay. But it amazes me how she did it. For me, moms are heroes. Have you made sure to tell her that? I don't know if she'll listen to this. She listens to all my podcasts, so I hope she listens to this.

51:38But I've told her. She sees me also asking her questions now and then about it. So she must see that I'm more aware of it now that I've matured. And the final question before we move on to a few quickfire questions to finish off the interview. How happy are you? It's a tough question because I don't think I'll ever be 100 % happy until you win more often or you're on the podium or winning often. Like I've won a race, so I know how happy that feels. Like that level of happiness is very difficult to achieve. So it depends where you put the barometer of happiness. But if I leave results aside, which makes your happiness go up and down, I think I live a very happy life and I cannot complain about anything.

52:24I have everything I've ever dreamed of. Family that loves me, that I take care of everyone. They take care of me. Love spending time with all of them. Everyone's healthy around me. Like, what else can you ask for in life? That is not that. I love doing my sport. I spend time with my friends whenever I want to do my sport. There's very little things right now in my life that would make me. That's great. No regrets, huh? No regrets. For now. For now. Okay. No regrets. Full stop. Some quick fire questions.

53:03What are the three most important behaviors that you think people should possess? Discipline. I think without discipline it's very difficult to be successful in anything in life in general don't do something to someone that you wouldn't like doing to yourself that is so important I think honestly you're in the wrong spot exactly probably I've suffered from it and probably being present I think gratitude in general feeling grateful for what we have already be here and I have to be more grateful and that's something that I'm trying to exercise myself. Your advice for a teenage Carlos just starting out on his journey?

53:47Don't be afraid of making mistakes. I think if there's one thing I've learned is that actually sometimes I was too scared of making mistakes and that held my talent back maybe because of pressure of everything but being less careful about saying things, doing things. The best bit of advice you've ever received and why? smile more, be more grateful. My dad and my family always tell me that because they think I'm a bit serious on camera or wherever they see me. But mainly my dad gave me, when I was a kid, I was too nice to people in general. I was too, to my teammates, to my competitors, too naive.

54:24And he said, in this sport, you either bite or you get beaten. And then I started biting and that gave me the character I have today because I was struggling a lot at the time, being too much of a nice kid and I was hard over too many times. Which is a great thing to be, by the way, a nice kid. I think I would rather have a kid more on that side than a competitive wild sport like this one. And the final question for people that have listened to this amazing chat and thank you for opening up so much. Your one golden rule for living a high-performance life. Take care of your body and take care of your mind.

55:00But for me, the only way you can take care of the mind is by taking care of the body. So take care of the body, have discipline, do your little bit of sport, try and eat relatively healthy. This will raise your mood. This will make you feel well with yourself. All these three things, nutrition, fitness, and discipline is the only thing that when I feel sad, depressed, or I feel lazy is what raises my mood. and the mental health almost comes with it. And I see so many young people or people struggling nowadays with mental health that I don't think they know how powerful doing sport, fitness, staying healthy can be for mental health.

55:43Brilliant. Listen, thank you so much for this conversation. I've loved it. You know, I have this sort of image of you as a guy who grew up in the shadow of your dad, which is not a small shadow to grow up in with a powerful, brilliant mom. But then Formula One, man, it pushes you to the absolute limit at different times. You know, the challenges you had at Toro Rosso are different to the challenges you had at Ferrari. And now as a leader at Williams, it's different to the challenges now. But you look confident, calm. Thank you. In a good place. I think you've probably learned that being in the right environment, regardless of how fast at the moment the car is in that environment, for your own sake, is probably the most important thing.

56:20Probably. And I thank you for that. I think it was a very interesting chat. And congrats for the podcast because I've listened to many, many of them. and there always still comes highlights in my Instagram reels about this podcast. So very happy to be here. Well, now you can see yourself on your Instagram highlights. I don't know how that will look. Thank you. Massive thanks to Carlos for joining us. If you enjoyed that conversation, there's so much more F1 on our channel. Lando Norris, Fernando Alonso, Alex Albon, Toto Wolf, Christian Horner, Claire Williams, James Vowles, and so many more. And remember, for early access to all our episodes, just download the High Performance app.

56:55Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.

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