Christian Horner: Red Bull Betrayal, Geri’s WARNING & Unfinished Business in F1 (E443)

0:00Hey, it's a massive week for High Performance and we have a special bonus episode dropping this Friday with Richard Hammond. Make sure you hit follow.

0:10Jerry said to me, they don't want you anymore, they don't value you. Got a text to say, we want to have a chat. He was dressed up as to talk about marketing. The helmet said, well, it feels more like Christian Horner racing than Red Bull racing. I mean, I wonder whether betrayal is too strong a word or whether that's how it felt.

0:31Well, it's nice to see you. It's good to see you too. Welcome back to High Performance. Yeah, it's been a while. It's been a while. Different set up. Yeah, and a lot has changed in our lives and certainly in your life since then, which we're going to talk about. The biggest change, obviously, is that for 23 years, Rebel Racing was not your job, but your life. 405 Grand Prix, 124 wins, 14 World Championships for drivers and constructors. And then in 45 minutes, that journey came to an end and you talk in the book about your first feeling after that conversation being one of relief why relief i think obviously tension had grown things had changed and it just felt very very different to you know when i came into the into the sport into the into the team and you know when i got in the car and i left that left that meeting you know i called i I called Jerry, called my wife, explained what happened.

1:31And you just feel like, you know, the world's been almost taken off your shoulders. Incredibly sad. And as I drove back up, you know, the M40 home, you have a chance to, you know, reflect a little. But yeah, if I'm really honest with myself and if you spoke to my wife, you know, there was a period in time that, you know, we were winning a huge amount. And she said, I've never seen you so unhappy. And it's almost like you get to the top of the mountain and you realise there's nothing there. You know, it was that kind of feeling. And obviously a huge amount of pressure in a sport that is so visible as well.

2:16So how can you explain that to people who would imagine that the minute you're winning world titles, drivers, constructors, the team is celebrated you're the rock and roll team on the grid you're you've transcended formula one you've spoken about in mainstream you've become famous in every country in the world how can you explain to people that you were almost the least happy you've ever been at that point i think it's all relative and it applies across so many different aspects of life that you know if you're if you're happy in yourself if you're happy in your work then everything's just just easier and you know there's been an awful lot of change um obviously within the team within the overall business and then different different pressures are settling down as to what does the new world after the passing of of the founder Dietrich Matherschitz and inevitably it was always going to be different from that that moment onwards and you know rather than being able to focus on just the racing yeah suddenly your your energy your focus gets consumed into managing other other elements and other relationships and and um and politics which inevitably happen within you know many many different organizations so we're talking here i guess about the period where you're dealing with allegations of coercive and controlling behavior you're in the newspapers every day way before that way before that before that yeah because i I sort of assumed that life as the Red Bull boss was going great until that moment happened and the allegations came out.

3:50But even before that you were. No, no, yeah, way before that. So take us to the moment that you felt something in the team was broken and what was going on then. I didn't feel it was breaking. You could just feel change. And inevitably when you have a founder like Dietrich was, he was the epicenter of all things Red Bull. And then, you know, when that person is there no longer, it leaves a void. And it's how is that void therefore filled? And so life started become very different from the end of 2022. And as we headed into the 23 season, I was given more responsibility where I was asked to take on the responsibility for the marketing of, you know, the second team to become renamed Racing Bulls and appointing, you know, Laurent and Peter Bayer into that team.

4:40And I could just feel it didn't sit well within parts of, you know, parts of the group. And then you start to feel a pushback and a, you know, an attention. And even though we were doing all that winning, you know, during 23, we only lost one race. There was always this undertone of pressure and change and moving plates and sort of, you know, having to look over your shoulder too often. And what did Geri see to be able to say that she'd never seen you so unhappy? What was the change in your behavior? I think it was, you know, inevitably you take out on your partner or the people that you love most, you offload the most.

5:26And I think she could see on the one hand we're winning everything. On the other hand, I'm frustrated that, you know, getting sucked into all these different dynamics. I think she could see that that was frustrating me, that this was a period in time that the team, you know, had hit incredible heights, heights that, you know, we broke the records that have been there since 1988 when McLaren, you know, won all bar one race as well that year, but it was less races. So I think she could, you know, she could see and obviously feel that. This doesn't get spoken about much in Formula One, And still, there are still elements of that sport that are so like it's still the 1970s and 80s.

6:11How did it affect your mental health? How did it affect it? Subconsciously, I think it's just a constant pressure. And when you are the CEO of an organization, you are the front face. You are the outward face on the good days and the bad days. And of course, you know, as the team is growing, you don't want to show any form of weakness and emotion because you want the people in the business to feel safe and secure. And there'd been such stability within, you know, the Red Bull team. I was fiercely protective of that. I treated the team, and maybe I was guilty of treating it as if it were my own team, as if, you know, I made sure that money was spent as if it were, you know, money that was mine, that it wasn't wasted, that it was applied to the right, you know, to the right areas.

7:09And so I felt a tremendous responsibility. These are all people that you've persuaded to come on this journey, leave other teams, other entities, and particularly with the engine project that was in its infancy and was gearing up during that period as well. It was a hugely tense time. When you reflect on the build-up and, of course, the day that you lost your job and you had to call Drevery, what was the single hardest moment for you in that period the single hardest moment well I had a whole bunch of stuff going on in my personal life with the loss of a uh you know family member the uh you know my daughter's mother so it was all coming at once and to be honest with you the most important thing to me in that point in time was my family, my grieving 11-year-old child.

8:06You know, at the end of the day, Formula One is entertainment. You know, as Jerry would often say to me, you're not safe in lives. You're just, you know, entertainment on four wheels. And you have to put these things, you know, into perspective at the end of the day. And I think standing in front of the team, I wanted to do that. and I'm grateful, you know, initially when it was, this was presented to me, it was a press release was going to go out, the staff were going to read it in the internet. I'm grateful to, you know, Oliver Minslaff and Red Bull at that time that they gave me the opportunity.

8:44I asked specifically that I wanted to address the staff, you know, the following day. There was concern that it was already known in the media, you know, that we had so much leakage. anyway around red ball but they they granted me that wish and you know standing in front of the team that you've built and they all thought i was going there to say that max was leaving um you know because there was the rumors around the the you know max was not happy and mercedes and you know blah blah blah so it was rammed the the the room was absolutely rammed and i just felt this huge shock, you know, in the room.

9:28And then, you know, there was an emotion. I could see people crying in front of me and I could see just a shock. And, you know, the response that they gave me, that's what then completely took the wind out of me. And it then started to dawn that this is going to be the last time that you're standing in front of, you know, this group of people that meant so much to you. And would you take us 24 hours earlier before you stood in front of that group and tell us, how was the decision delivered to you? Well, 24 hours earlier, I was watching Jake at Eddie Jordan's memorial service. So, you know, we just had the British Grand Prix.

10:09We'd qualified on pole position for the Grand Prix. I think he, I can't remember, he finished six or whatever, he had a spin in the lead and there's safety car issues and so on. But, you know, over the Grand Prix weekend, I'd had, you know, the team, some of the leadership at my house for, you know, dinner and the drivers, as we'd always done from both teams on the Saturday night. You know, Laurent Mechies was there and Peter Baer was there and Helmut and, yeah, amongst others. and then on the Monday, yeah, I got a text to say, we want to have a chat in, you know, can you meet us in London? And it was, you know, it was dressed up to talk about marketing because they'd been talking about diluting, you know, the roles and maybe marketing going back into Austria.

11:09But as soon as I arrived at the meeting and there was, or at the venue and the lady said, oh, there, They're waiting upstairs for you. I, you know, I knew what I was potentially. And that was the moment you knew. And you walked in. I walked into the room. There was Helmut. There was Oliver and there was the group head of HR. And as soon as you see that line up, you know. And, you know, I could tell they were all very uncomfortable about it. And, you know, within a short space of time, that was the end of my Red Bull journey. That was it. You know, I was told operationally they wanted to go in a different direction, which, you know, at the end of the day, it was there.

11:58It was their train set. It just felt the timing, you know, of it all just felt strange from, you know, from my perspective. And did you protest? There was no point. A decision had been made. I just asked how that decision had been reached. What were the grounds? No real explanation was given other than the company wanted to go in another direction. But, you know, that was their prerogative. And, you know, to have your tenure at a company that you've given your heart and soul to for that period of time, it felt a very non-emotive way of coming to a conclusion. Well, there's a line you wrote in the book where Helmut said something very specific to you.

13:02So, you know, and I really pushed, I mean, Helmut said, well, it feels more like Christian Horner racing than Red Bull racing.

13:13Yeah, I said, look, I wrote for Red Bull. You know, everything I've done has been for the benefit of this team. And, you know, when you're in a leadership position, you can't be faceless. You know, you have to stand up and take the rough with the smooth. And I always did my very best to defend anybody that worked as a Red Bull employee. They were part of a group that you stood up for and that you defended, whether it was drivers, whether it was engineers, whether it was technicians, whether it was members of the finance team during the budget cap issue. They were part of your team, part of your unit, part of who you were.

14:05And I saw it as my role, almost a paternal way to say, okay, if you're wearing a Red Bull shirt and you're part of this team, I've got your back. and it was I think in many respects that that spirit that we nurtured during the the period that we embodied taking a subsidiary of a fizzy drinks manufacturer to take it on the world's best and you know because my challenge was always well why can't we beat Mercedes or Ferrari or McLaren or Toyota or BMW you know it's a people sport it's a people business and as soon as you underestimate the value of people, you're screwed. Still to come, having been out of the team now for a big period of time, Christian can finally reflect on actually what went on and how it leaves him thinking now about the team and the people in it.

15:04We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners.

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16:45Explore the full Defender lineup at LandRoverUSA.com. So you had had their back when there were challenges and issues. When you needed them to have your back, they called you into a room and in 45 minutes you lost your job. And you lost your job in the presence of a man who a week before or even a few days before had been at your house having dinner with you. I mean, I wonder whether betrayal is too strong a word or whether that's how it felt? I was disappointed. I was hugely disappointed. That's probably a very English way of saying it. So how do you really feel? Helmut had been there at the beginning.

17:21He was the reason that I had the opportunity at Red Bull. And for so many years, we'd worked together. We'd had our differences of opinion, but he played an important role, a very important role, within the success that we had. And I was just disappointed that it was, you know, two days earlier, you know, he'd been staying at my house. And these discussions don't just happen, you know, on the day. There's obviously a precursor to that. And I just thought that I, you know, at the end of the day, he didn't owe me anything. but it would have been, if it had been the other way around, I think I would have been saying, look, things are getting difficult.

18:09You know, there's a headwind coming here, not from that to that. Did you or Gerry, either of you, pick up at that dinner at yours? Did there was anything going on? Not at that dinner. I mean, Gerry said to me, I think I mentioned it in the book, she'd mentioned to me in the Austrian Grand Prix that it just felt different. You know, the dynamic of the energy around the place just felt different. And she said, I think something's going to happen. I think that they, you know, they don't want you anymore. They don't value you. And what did you do with that warning that Jerry was giving you? I knew she was right.

18:48I didn't really want to hear it. Right. Because you compartmentalize these things. And, I mean, it's a tough thing. I mean, as a middle-aged guy, as a 52-year-old guy, Your work defines, in many respects, who you are. Many people are defined by their work. And suddenly it turns things around to actually look inwardly at yourself. Well, I've come out of this machine. How do I pick myself up from this? And you can see, and I sympathize with anybody that has been in a job and loses that job, the internal questions and the insecurities that you can absolutely understand of, well, where do I fit now?

19:39What's my purpose? You can totally relate to that. And I mean, I was shocked the other day. Somebody told me the biggest killer in the US within middle-aged males isn't cancer or anything else. It's suicide. And that's where mental health plays such a key role. know, a key role. And so therefore, you know, facing those challenges head on, okay, well, you know, I've got an amazing family. I've got a, you know, I'm healthy. How do I brush myself down and go again? And to be honest with you, it took me a few months just to decompress, you know, and I think it's only with reflection, you realize that actually I wasn't happy.

20:33And And, you know, but out of a sense of loyalty to the team, to everything that you've been part of, you keep going. So what was the hardest then, hearing that decision in that meeting room or standing in front of these 1 ,500 people you'd been leading for so long? Hearing those words say it's come to an end. I think there's an element of shock and that you need to process it. The bit that really came real to me was, you know, I asked to be able to go to the factory the next day rather than just being, you know, removed. And as I say, I'm grateful that they awarded me that, you know, that chance.

21:16And it was Oliver that agreed to that. You know, I wanted to address the management team, you know, the people that I've worked so closely with in your core management team. then the wider management group all the heads of the department uh you know across the 22 different departments that that form you know the whole red bull group of companies it was red bull racing it was red bull technology it was red bull advanced technology it was red bull powertrains and and that was tough because you know you're seeing people are crying you've got grown men crying um and and just upset and saying well look the car's not performing it's not because of you, you know, it should be, you know, I'll offer my resignation.

22:06And that was, you know, that was tough seeing the effects. And then standing in front of everybody and then coming off that stage at the end, you know, how just lovely and warm, you know, they all were. And then the text that I got, you know, the messages, they were truly, truly moving. I can see now, it gets you now, right, thinking about that day? Yeah, because people, you're dealing with emotions. And I'm a person that, you know, if you look at my background, what am I? I used to be a driver. I ran my own team and I quickly recognized that sport, like all industries, is down to the people. And whether that was a team that had 20 people in Formula 3000 or what's now Formula 2 or the 450 when I joined Red Bull to the 2200 when I left, what drove the success in those entities and teams was the people.

23:19and Formula One is the biggest team sport in the world and you're only as good as your people. And in the blink of an eye, you don't have that around you. You have some silence and you're at home. You're also dealing with the challenges of Beverly's passing and looking after your daughter and all of the fallout and the press intrusion and the interest in everything that's going on. It's interesting that you mentioned that you saw sort of a US survey talking about men taking their own lives as the biggest killer. why did that relate to how you were feeling at that time in some way do you think?

23:51I think you can identify that you know suddenly anybody that's gone through a situation where you know you're in a job and then it's taken away from you you know there's an immediate sense of what next how am I gonna you know how is this gonna work and literally I came home that evening from that meeting in London. And there was a parents' evening for an end-of-year award at Olivia's school. And so Jerry and I went to that. And of course, it hadn't come out in the media, so nobody knew. But I stood there and I watched this 11-year-old little girl go onto the stage who'd lost her mum the week before.

24:37And I thought, you know what? if she's got the bravery to do that, then what I'm dealing with is nothing. And as I say, it just puts things into perspective. But I'm quite taken with this idea that you said that you had to be the public face to these 15 million people. You couldn't let them see your frustrations or some of your emotions, and then you get the chance to go back home. What did you do in terms of processing some of these emotions of anger, shock, disappointment over the next few months? The dogs went on a lot of walks. And look, I think you just, you know, it's like a decompression.

25:23And bit by bit, you know, you just, you get a chance for reflection and just decompress. So watching the first race, you know, I attended 404 races in a row. I never missed a Grand Prix. I'd spent every race, you know, at a Grand Prix track since Red Bull's entry into the sport. I'd missed my daughter's birth. I'd missed many birthdays for the kids or milestones or, you know, our honeymoon was the Monaco Grand Prix. um so you know i've i've made so many sacrifices in in that respect and then you're sitting down and you're watching a race the first time you think shit you've got no information you're relying on crofty and whoever's a commentator uh which was unnatural to me because i'm used to looking at screens and feed and not hearing commentators and suddenly you're trying to get on a Formula One app and see the splits, which gives you an amount of it.

26:32But compared to the epicenter of sitting on a pit wall where you've got everything coming at you, that was like, wow, this is so different. And that first weekend, I watched every practice session, every Formula Two, Formula Three race. I was just glued to the TV and Max won the sprint race in Spa. and I was having so many texts from the circuit saying nobody's celebrating.

27:06And it was very strange to see and watch that. And that just felt weird because they're your guys, it's your team, it's the sponsors that you've negotiated to be in those positions. And so that was a different experience. But with time, it passed to the point that I turned the TV on just before the start of the race. And as soon as the podium was done, you know, I'm walking the dogs around the garden. We can't not talk about the allegations about your private life that were present towards the end of your time at Red Bull. How much do you think what was going on away from racing for you personally impacted the culture at Red Bull?

27:51I think that for me that was, it was a very intense period. Obviously a grievance was raised. It was taken out of the company to be dealt with independently. It was dealt independently by two KCs, a King's Council that are independent barristers. And it was dismissed on two occasions. And so, you know, obviously there was an enormous amount of media that obviously around it. It was a very difficult time in my life, in my family's life. And, you know, Jerry was amazing, you know, during that whole period. And I think, again, you know, it makes you recognize what are the important things in life.

28:52Most important thing in life is family and health. And, you know, I'm very lucky that I have an amazing family. I have a beautiful wife.

29:07Touch wood, all of whom are, you know, are healthy. And it just puts everything else into perspective. What did you see in Jerry around that time where you thought this person is even more special than I thought? I just saw an inner strength in her that, yeah, was incredible. Incredible. I mean, for her to walk into that paddock that day with me in Bahrain, I mean, that talk, there was balls of steel, you know. there's many many that would have wilted away and but to go do you know what we're together we're a couple you know that massive massive strength we should actually pay credit to her because she had a husband who was traveling a lot yeah she was pulled unwittingly into the center of the scandal at red bull and also i think on a personal level that's a hard those are hard conversations for to have behind closed doors as well because of what happened right how soon after you got the the news of your departure did you speak with max on the day on the day uh and he was very gracious i mean he thanked me for for everything and uh um you know the achievements that we'd achieved the memories that we'd had um you know it wasn't his fault it wasn't his yeah it wasn't his decision So he was just very gracious.

30:37And to this day, you know, we still, you know, exchange messages. And it was, you know, it was his birthday yesterday. So, you know, he's getting up there now. But, yeah, look, he's a great guy. I feel privileged to have worked with all our drivers and all the people, you know, that were in the team. because when I think back to my time in Formula One 2009 to 2012 the big thing I think about is the culture the atmosphere around the Red Bull team that you were leading at the time that was almost rewriting the rules of what it looked like to be a team in Formula One so the thing that still confuses me about this whole conversation is how you went from that where I remember stability and teamship and like clarity of communication that I was seeing there to what happened in 2022 and onwards where there was this kind of slow breakdown, this slow decline in what was going on and the pressure got huge.

31:35Do you think that what happened at the end of 2021 relates to what happened in the end at Red Bull, how things started to crumble? Not really. I mean, 2021, Dietrich was still around. Yeah. And 21 was just a crazy year. You know, you've got everything going on in the circuit. at this heavyweight fight between these two titans honda would announce they're pulling out after covid they'd thrown everything into the engine that they possibly could they brought their development forward a year and we had an engine that we could go toe-to-toe with um uh with mercedes on um who in 2020 had had one of their most dominant ever years and the cars were just carry over in the background we're building up this engine business um yeah so 2021 was unique in its in itself i think you know things really changed when like in any organization when a founder yeah uh that is a very present founder is no longer there it's inevitable you're going to have you know things are going to be different things are going to, things are going to evolve.

32:49But the reason why I think of 2021 as being pivotal is because I think it sort of changed the rules of engagement for the audience with Red Bull. Like, it wasn't your fault that you won the title in that manner. But the public were like, how can, you know, how can you do this? Like, when you, at the time, you're like, well, it isn't our decision. I just think then, you know, drive to the Survivor looking for a villain. Oh, who can the villain be? Of course. What about the guy that leads the team that just kind of nabbed the eighth title from Lewis Hamilton? And it kind of created, I think this narrative around Rebel that was, and around you particularly, that was, you're the baddie.

33:24Did you feel that? Well, of course. I mean, look, and in Drive to Survive, they're, you know, they're building or making a TV show and there's villains and heroes and it's a bit like the Kardashians on wheels. And, you know, that year was box office for them. And, you know, for so much of it, we were the challenger. and the Mercedes team had been so dominant and then we end up at that final race. And of course, you're fighting as hard as you can for your team. And it only became apparent to me at Barcelona that year that when they started to broadcast the communications with the race director, that Toto had been speaking directly to Michael Massey.

34:10Hang on, that's not on. You're putting pressure on the referee here. So I was like to our team manager, right, get me a line. Because I never used to speak to Charlie Whiting in 15 years that he was there. He was always through the team manager. And so then you start, of course, you know, if you can put pressure on and defend your position. And so that was ratcheting up through that year. We had slash points at Silverstone, at Budapest, at Monza. You know, there was these real flashpoints. You get to that final race and, you know, we took our chances.

34:52Lewis was the faster car on the day. You know, he was driving away from Max and for 80 % of the race, I'm thinking, what am I going to tell the crew? How am I going to lift this team up? Not only have we lost the constructors, we're going to lose the drivers at last knockings. We've put everything into this. And Sergio drove an amazing race and as a teammate brought Max back into play to put Mercedes under that pressure of do they, don't they. And then, of course, Nicholas Latifi has his crash. And it's going to be a safety car for us at that point. we had nothing to lose by taking the stop, Mercedes have had that awkward decision, stick or pit.

35:43And they chose to stick on the assumption that the race might not get going, which seemed to, at that juncture in time, very much a risk in itself because it didn't look that big an accident and there was an escape road nearby. And then, of course, the race director then says that there's going to be no unlapped cars and then he changes his mind. And of course we're pushing hard that this is not the way to finish a championship. And there was more than enough time to unlapped all of the cars. He made the decision, which was within his remit as per the regulations, to be able to do, but it had never been done before, just to allow the cars between Max and Lewis to unlap.

36:35Yeah. That wasn't our fault, you know, but we're then in a position where you've got this one lap to have a crack at it. And if anybody's going to deliver for you on a lap like that, it's going to be Max. And, you know, what happened, happened. He made the pass at a corner that perhaps Lewis didn't expect rather than at the end of the straight. Managed to hang on. Won the race. you know and the place you know erupted with positive and negative with positive and negative I mean it's full of duchies they're off the charts in Malaysia you know any Lewis Hamilton fan is feeling absolutely robbed and I have to say full credit to Lewis though afterwards because in what must have been a horrendous moment to him he held it together he shook Max's hand he shook my hand he congratulated us and his father.

37:36And what must have been an incredibly difficult moment for him. So my respect for him, you know, elevated at that point in time. And then, of course, you're then into a discussion with stewards and barristers and whatever else. But it's inevitable that that created a narrative. And of course, it's very easy for the people that feel wrong to lean into that and also build a narrative. And you're talking about Toto at this point? Well, the Mercedes media machine. They've got a very, they've got a significant machine that they put into play with some seasoned campaigners that know how to lean on the system and pull the right levers.

38:31So, yeah, you know, that was inevitable that some people perceive you as the villain, particularly if you're a Lewis Hamilton fan. And, you know, in Holland, you're a hero. So did you try and rally against this idea that you were the villain? Or did it kind of work for you as well to create this relationship with Toto, which I think elevated the conversations around the team principles to a different level as well around that time? Well, I always worked on a view that as a leader of an organization, if they could see that you were flustered in any way, inevitably you're taking that out on the people around you.

39:08People will tense at that point. So I knew they were under pressure when Toto in Brazil is shouting at a camera or smashing headphones up, that people around them are going to feel that. And, you know, human instinct or reaction is that people tend to clam up and go into a shell. You know, it's something like, whoa. And I think that for me, I knew we had this chance and we had to, we had to throw everything at it. And I remember speaking to getting the race team together before the race. I said, look guys, whatever happens today is going to happen. Just go out there, give it your best and enjoy it.

39:50Yeah. And whatever, whatever the result at the end of the race is going to be, is going to be. What did you say to Max beforehand? but and again it's very similar just enjoy it go out there give it your best what happens at the end of it whatever's going to be will be but just enjoy it but you said for 80 % of that race you were almost staring down the barrel of a gun and thinking what am I going to say to the team like what how did you manage your own emotions so they couldn't see that you were starting to doubt your success I think that you know you go into that that mode of okay how do I protect you know your group and and so at that moment it's not about you it's not about what you're feeling it's about you know how do you hold this group together how do you um you know what can you say that's going to in any way dampen that feeling of of of loss of having missed out on the title at the last race so um so they were way more important than my emotion at that point.

40:58And that was the way I'd always operated. There was a story in the book that I think best demonstrates the fundamental change of this team. Because I remember there was a point where it was like Christian and Adrian came as a duo. I remember the parties at your house. I remember Christian doing donuts in one of your cars. Adrian doing donuts. Sorry, Adrian doing donuts on your lawn. Much to the frustration of the lady of the house at the time, I remember. But you were kind of together as a duo. then the moment comes where you find out that Adrian is actually leaving the team. Can you take us to the day that you got the news that he was leaving and you hadn't heard it from the man himself?

41:35I think, look, Adrian, he enjoyed such a long period, almost 20 years with Adrian and every other team he'd been at. He's only ever made seven years. I'm proud of the fact that he was with us for almost 20 years. And during that period, you build a friendship. You know, he's godfather to my daughter. And we had some wonderful times, you know, together. And we're partners, we're buddies, we're colleagues. And, of course, that gets challenged at different junctures in time. And I suppose, you know, at the end, Adrian, and it's something that perhaps, yeah, maybe it's a British thing. but dealing with emotion can be quite, and dealing with difficult topics can be, you know, we're not very good at unpacking.

42:32And, yeah, I got a phone call to say that Adrian wants to leave and he's in the office over the road from me. So I went to see him and said, what's all this about? And it had been obvious for a little period that, yeah, his frustrations were growing and, you know, things can't stay the same, you know, forever. And he said, you're going to need to speak to my manager. I said, well, who's your manager? And he said, Eddie Jordan. Honestly. I thought he was joking. I don't know Eddie. I mean, you know Eddie better than anyone. And he said, you're going to have to speak to Eddie. I said, he'll have you playing football or something.

43:19you know so um but you know that's just uh you know that's how it how how it ended and you know we met after that and we've had dinner since then and um yeah you know it was just a shame it ended it ended in that way but you know i i understand it it's it was probably too hard for adrian to unpack at that moment, which, you know, that's fine. And how much self-reflection did you do to think to yourself, like, am I responsible for the fact that Adrian is leaving this team? Well, you know, the problem that I had, and this is where you're torn between your friendship and, you know, your relationship, and what is right for the team and the company.

44:11I was coming under enormous pressure internally from the company that, you know, things didn't change. Five team members, key team members were looking at leaving. So it was putting me under enormous pressure. If things didn't change in what sense? Just in the working dynamics. That Adrian was obviously splitting his time between advanced technology and Formula One. and there was a feeling that he needed to hand over the keys more. And so, you know, you're then in a conflicted situation where it's your mate and buddy and that you've been on this journey with, but also as a CEO of an organization that's got to keep, you know, evolving and, you know, finding the right route forward.

45:07And that's where I'd always admired organizations that had kept evolving and hadn't been stagnant. But yeah, that's just another challenge. That stat that you said about Adrian had lasted seven years and so many others, and you had a relationship that lasted 20. What did you understand about him that maybe other people didn't? I think I tried to provide an environment where he could just be himself and flourish. and without the, you know, without getting bogged down by process or, you know, protocols. It gave him freedom. Adrian is very much, you know, he's the most successful designer in Formula One history.

45:56And it was a matter of like an artist giving them their freedom to go and create without the overhead of having to manage large groups of people. And he thrived in, you know, that feeding off the team, you know, around him, bouncing ideas, pushing the boundaries. I mean, he was relentless, you know, during that period and, you know, achieved some amazing, amazing highs. And the story of how you signed him to the team is one of the most hilarious moments in the book. Can you just tell that story for us? Because it was kind of you and DC carrying out a pincer movement on Adrian and taking him out to the Red Bull headquarters in Austria.

46:45That's right. Yeah. I mean, so DC, who was, you know, our driver, he'd had a relationship with Adrian since DC was the test driver at Williams in 1993. So Adrian was showing interest in Red Bull. You know, first time he turned up with the energy station, he's standing out the front looking at it, and I invited him in for a drink. And I remember saying to DC, I think, you know, Adrian, I can feel that he's intrigued by what this is all about. And so DC, being DC, said, right, what we'll do is we'll get a dinner together. I'll look after his wife. You focus on Adrian. And so we went to, it was the Bluebird in Chelsea.

47:31Right. And we had this dinner and true to form, DC. Looked after Marigold. Looked after Marigold. Marigold, yes. And, you know, as I spoke to Adrian, who, you know, he grew up in a similar part of, you know, England to where I'd grown up and went to school just up the road from where I'd grown up. And it was just easy. It was just, you know, I felt that we connected. And so then it was a matter of going to try and seal the deal in Salzburg for him to see what was Red Bull. And Marigold was hugely nervous about his contract with McLaren. So, I mean, bar a fake mustache, you know, he caps dark glasses.

48:18And we arrive at Hangar 7, which is the Red Bull headquarters. there's this glass hanger and it's open to the public, you know, as well. And there was a bunch of Japanese tourists there that were ardent Formula One fans. And we get off Dietrich's plane and they see DC. And it's like pictures everywhere. And Marigold is trying to put this cap on Adrian and the glasses and this and the other. And we had the most amazing sort of 24 hours where we went up to see Dietrich, who rode into this hotel. It was about, you know, October. It was a beautiful, sunny Alpine day. He rode into this restaurant. We could see him coming down the road towards this sort of beautiful, you know, Austrian setting like Terminator's dad on this Harley, no helmet.

49:12You know, blah, blah, blah. Got off. A hugely charismatic guy. sat down and just welcomed him and raved that he would even consider Red Bull and his vision for two teams. And then he bugged off. Went into his hotel, we didn't see him for another hour or so. And then he came out, had a bit of apple strudel and fucked off. And that was it. And, you know, anyway, so then they put Adrian in. We went on, landed on a lake somewhere. in their seaplane. We stuck him up in an Alpha jet as he went inverted over Kitsbiel. And I could see it was really appealing to him. And DC had given me a number that he told me he thought he was earning.

50:01And when you get to that time in the evening after we've done it. That was three million. So it was around that number. Yeah. And anyway, then, so I'm getting into that sort of, So what would it take, you know, to, you've seen what Red Bull is. Yeah, I like it. I think, yeah, it feels like, for him it felt like the Leighton House team that he'd worked for, just a more grown-up, you know, version, going to a smaller team than he'd been at Surly McLaren. And Marigold sort of stepped into the negotiation at that point. And the number she came back was double, what DC had been talking about. And I'm just going to need a minute.

50:44So I step out of the room and I go and speak to Dietrich and I thought, I'll start with the good news. Dietrich, I think Adrian's ready to come and he's like, this is fantastic. This is the best thing for our team. Well done. This is amazing. I said, there's one bit of bad news. It's the numbers twice what I get. I said, this is ridiculous. Put him on the plane. Send him home. Send him home. And put a phone down. I'm sort of so I go back into the restaurant and think okay Christian be creative here what about what about a base and a bonus you know there's got to be another I'm not prepared I've got Adrian about to say yes I can't you know let him go and so anyway I was sort of dancing around the conversation a bit and the phone goes I see it's Dietrich and then two seconds I leave the table again and he came back no I've thought about it this was the most this would be the best thing for Red Bull um you know go ahead wow and that and and that was it that's an important phone call yeah no exactly it took away my creative maths from having to come into play so adrian comes in already involved at red bull though and a longtime friend of dietrich was helmut marco yep and you're incredibly candid about helmut in the book you described him as ruthless as cold but i sort of one line i thought that was really interesting someone who used information as currency and I just, I couldn't work out how do you lead alongside someone who can undermine you and other people around you so easily and he had such a power in that team it seemed.

52:22I think Helmut, Helmut's an interesting character, he's had a, you know, his own career as a driver, as a team owner and in fact I raced against his team and he was absolutely responsible in giving me the opportunity with Dietrich and I think particularly at the time that Adrian was coming on board he was being very much marginalized by another member of Red Bull in that group at the time and over a period of time he had Dietrich's trust and I think of course Helmut he was very very old school I think his accident had probably hardened him he wasn't an emotional character in any way he saw things as either black or white which in some respects was easy to deal with and he was hugely supportive to us as a team in terms of being able to get stuff done and remain independent to the group the downside was that if you asked him a question as a journalist there was no filter he'd just tell you the truth and you know that then became difficult for so many conversations you know with Adrian why is he talking about an upgrade or Pierre Vachet why are we saying this in the media why are we talking about drivers why are we but it was just his his way of working so it didn't make on those occasions life easier you know particularly in uh uh in in dealing with media but in terms of having the trust of dietrich and having enabling stuff to get done he played a key role and of course his main focus was the young driver project where you know he took took bold decisions so um And yeah, you know, he was, I would say, instrumental in many ways to the success that we had.

54:31But also, particularly in dealing with the media, you know, there was many a press officer that were left in tears at what was left to sometimes be mopped up. Can we talk then about the young driver thing with him? Because if there's one narrative that kind of hangs over still from your time at Red Bull, it was that the second seat alongside Max was impossible for anybody. we've spoken to Alex about it, we've spoken to Liam Lawson about it, we've spoken to Sergio Perez about it, all on this podcast. I've never really heard you talk about what you think was going on there, why it was so hard for someone to be Max's number two, not just Max's speed, but also this narrative that they were treated like a commodity by the team and they were kind of discarded quickly if they weren't good enough.

55:16I mean, Liam told us a story that in China he was asked to run a setup that he'd never normally run, but let's take the chance together and then following race he was no longer in the car. From the outside it feels kind of ruthless and heartless and now we see Isaac Hadja already has a contract for next season. It feels like stability there. Is that fair, the kind of the view of that second driver's seat that it wasn't handled well? Sometimes yes and sometimes no. You look at the longevity that Mark Webber had or you look at the longevity that Sergio did what four years with us or Daniel, you know, five years.

55:48Even Sergio said the day he met you you said to him if we could run one car, we would. Not quite right. I mean, I said to him, look, it was very clear. I mean, Sergio had no contract. Well, he was talking with Sauber for the following year. And I said to him, look, you have to recognize that this team is geared around trying to win a world championship with Max as the lead driver. So as long as you accept that from the word go, that if you're in a position to win a race and what you do on the track, fine. But if you're not, you will be asked to support your teammate because that is our best way of beating Mercedes.

56:28And he was desperate to sign on the dotted line for that because it was putting him into a car and a team and a top team that he felt after his McLaren time, he would never get that chance again. Now, in answer to your other question, I mean, if you look at it, obviously during the Daniel-Max era, the two started very close and the car was pretty benign between the two of them. I would say it started in 2018 where, I mean, Max is tremendously demanding for what he wants and he has a skill that is abnormal that he can just take. He demands more and more front end from the car, and he can just cope with whatever the rear does.

57:16Now, in pursuit of that goal to give him that tool, inevitably, your engineering department, your tools, your development focus goes down the route of creating that characteristic in a car. Yeah. which others found difficult to handle. And we saw it in the 21 car, in the 16B, or even the car before with Alex. And some of these drivers were arriving too soon. And I didn't completely agree with, you know, the speed at which they were arriving into Red Bull Racing. But there was a determination to have them from, you know, drivers from the Red Bull Junior pool because it had to, I think in Helmut's mind, it didn't justify its existence if we weren't quickly promoting young drivers, which I felt sometimes was too, you know, too soon in their development.

58:13Like who? I think Alex was too soon. I think Gastly was too soon. I think Lawson was too soon. You know, these guys, they needed more time to evolve. I mean, look how long did George Russell have in a difficult Williams before getting that, you know, call up. They're more rounded by the time they, you know, they arrive. so and then what was interesting to me so during 21 Alex Albon did a hell of a job in the background developing the 22 car because so much focus was on the 21 car developing it till the last moment and Alex had developed that car and it was very much around his style of driving which much more classic way of driving that was probably more akin to a Sergio or a Daniel.

59:06And so when we started the 22 season, if you remember that Max hated the car, it had too much understeer in the car. And Sergio, with that predictability, you know, suddenly they were winning a race apiece and they're much closer at the start of that year. I remember I was sitting down with Max's management around Azerbaijan that year, and I'm saying, look, you've developed this car around Checo. You need to be following what Max needs. And so it was very clear the message that was coming down the line. And, of course, Max is the prime asset. He's the driver you're most likely going to win with.

59:53so of course any engineering team will gravitate just naturally towards their fastest driver or a team will gravitate to whatever whoever they think is going to be able to give them you know the best result and of course in i think it exposed some of the weaknesses in in our tools that the wind tunnel wasn't you know reliable or up to speed enough and some of our simulation you know wasn't um and and so inevitably the characteristics even to today you still see it that there is a an offset between what max can get out of the car and izak who's done a super job this year but there's still that offset and could you have done more to protect those young drivers, longer term contracts, more stability, more of a message that you're going to be here for the long run, even if it takes you a bit of time to catch up to Max?

1:00:51I think the feeling was that Red Bull was in a privileged position of having four seats. You had the two teams. So none of those drivers were just dropped. So Gasly went back into racing balls, was able to demonstrate value and go to another team, Albon. you know I worked very hard and fought very hard to get him that drive with Williams yeah you know we contributed you know financially to getting him that you know that drive you know Liam obviously having the ability to step back into that team that Kvyat the same but they the reality was they'd all arrive there too soon. You know, they'd had either a year or less than a year of Formula One experience, and they're being put up into a lead team in a difficult car against a generational talent.

1:01:52You know, that was almost impossible for them to succeed in that environment. And of course, suddenly you step into a top team, the scrutiny on you is way more, the pressure goes up. And you could visibly see that they were feeling that pressure, whether it was Pierre getting lapped in Austria and at the Hungarian Grand Prix, two races in a row. And he was broken in those races. Liam, at the beginning of last year, you could see the toll that it was taking on them. and for me it was because they were arriving there too quickly. And what would you do personally, Christian, to help them when you could see that toll being taken?

1:02:40You just try and talk with them and try and make sure that there was a parachute on the way down because I think in certain elements, if they hadn't made it in Rebel Racing, it's like, okay, there's a line through them. Was that Helmut? Yeah, Helmut's quite binary, you know, and his view was if you can't take the pressure, you're never going to succeed. And of course, on one hand, he's right. And the two guys that were able to cope with that pressure both became world champions in Sebastian and Max. but you know it was in one hand hugely generous what Red Bull were doing but it was quite brutal in terms of its execution that you were the flavour of the month until you weren't as it you know as it was you say what Red Bull were doing not what you were doing well I never had responsibility for the young driver programme you know you contribute it you make I mean I remember George Russell was paying us to go on our simulator, and as was Lando Norris and Oscar Piastri.

1:03:51Their dads were writing checks for them to run on the driver simulator that we had, and the guy that was looking after it was coming up to me and saying, Christian, these kids are better than the juniors we've got at the moment. I remember taking them to Helmut and going, I really think you should look at these guys. Wankers. look who that look who that turned out well for in the end we'll be right back after a quick word from our partners

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1:05:07We've spoken a lot about home and the death of Dietrich impacting the way that people behaved. We can't not talk about, you know, Max and Joss Verstappen because towards the end of your time there, there were so many rumors around Max has fallen out with you, wants to leave the team. You and Jos aren't seeing eye to eye. Every time there was a photo of the two of you in the Red Bull paddock, it was a still image and we were told it was a row. Who knew whether it was? I mean, there was an interesting line in your book where when Max first came on the radar, Helmut said to you something about Max's dad, didn't he?

1:05:40Yeah, he wasn't massively enthusiastic at the very beginning. Max was coming straight from karting into F3. I remember after I think it was at Silverstone I raised it with Helmut who was a bit dismissive at the time and of course he backed his junior, I can't remember who his junior drivers were in that year but in fairness to Helmut he then either went or watched on the TV a race at the Norris Ring that was in the wet and he saw this outstanding drive by Max and he became determined at that point that he wanted him within the junior team. And then Niki Lauda and Toto were showing a bit of interest.

1:06:30So that just elevated it, you know, even more that this was a competition with, you know, Mercedes to secure this talent. and, you know, what we were able to offer. And Helmut, you know, was prepared to, was brave enough to take that decision to say, we'll put him in the Formula One car. We'll stick him in the Toro Rosso. So his initial reaction had been sceptical at the very beginning. About Max or about yours? Just about Max, because it was one that wasn't on the junior program or whatever. But as soon as he saw the rawness of Max's talent, bang, he just wanted that driver. You write really well about Max.

1:07:23In the book, you call him the best driver you've ever worked with and potentially the greatest of all time. What is it that makes him so special? I think it's a combination of factors. I think he's obviously tremendously naturally gifted. He has a spare capacity when he's driving the car to be thinking beyond. He can drive on the limit and not be flustered in any way, shape or form. He's got the capacity to be taking all these other things in, whether it's strategy, whether it's the dynamics of what's happening with the car, whether it's his competitors. And he drives with a hunger and a determination that I've never seen in anybody before.

1:08:07Only watching Senna, I never obviously worked with Senna. You watch, you read, you see the history. Schumacher to a degree as well. If you look at a Max Verstappen out lap or the first lap of any Grand Prix, I almost guarantee you'll be two or three seconds quicker than any driver. His ability to get to the limit, to get the most out of the equipment, to have complete confidence in himself, in his own ability, it's outstanding. It's absolutely outstanding. And of course, you know, there's some incredible drivers, you know, out there at the moment, but he just has that completeness to him of whatever the conditions, the adaptability, and you just know he's going to give, he's demanding, and the relationship between he and GP, has been legendary in that respect.

1:09:07And GP's been hanging on to a, you know, a highly tuned racehorse. But, you know, he is, he will deliver 110%. He'll give you 110 % every time you put him in that car and he expects it in return. His best ever moment behind the wheel in your opinion? I mean, so many. I mean, Brazil 2024 has got to be up there. So many, you know, wet races. I remember Silverstone 2016 and driving around the outside at Nico Rosberg at Beckett's and anybody that's ever been around those corners. It's like, okay, chapeau. Just so, so, so many drives, you know, that have been truly, truly outstanding. And how was your relationship with his dad?

1:09:58Because Helmut's comment when you were talking about signing him was the father's a nightmare, we don't need this one, is what you say in the book. what was your relationship like? I think in the early days you know Jos he kept his head down I mean he's the one guy that that Max you know truly listened to and he'd done an incredible job of and put a huge amount into his nurturing his talent and you know his karting career and nurturing him into the talent that he is and yeah Yeah, you know, Max had a huge amount of trust and, you know, was going to listen to him above all others. Now, you know, inevitably, you know, sometimes you're going to have difference of opinions.

1:10:51But in general, Chris, how have you learned to disagree agreeably with somebody where you maybe don't share so much common ground? I think that, you know, Formula One is full of strong personalities. When I first came into the sport, you've got Ron Dennis's and Flavio's and John Todd's and Bernie's and Max's. And, you know, the sport changed so much during that period of time that I, from when I came into the sport to when I came out of Red Bull. And they were all so different, but all equally competitive and hungry. They just went about it in different ways. And, you know, I'll never forget the first Formula One Commission meeting that I attended.

1:11:33And we haven't agreed anything here. They just argued for two hours about everything. And then at the end, everybody agreed what a great meeting it was. And a press release went out with not a lot that we spoke about. It felt like it had been written well before the meeting and that Max and Bernie had the whole thing tucked up. So funny. I mean, one person you did disagree with a lot was Toto Wolff. on reflection do you miss the two of you butting heads I think I think any sport you've got to have a rivalry and I enjoyed racing against Toto you know he's a great operator he's put a you know he runs a great team he's competitive he's he's intelligent and we're just you know different in many respects and probably quite similar you know in in others and uh i enjoyed racing against him um he sent me a nice message after uh you know after i left um he's probably enjoying me not being there his life's probably a bit easier well i don't know actually because i took my son to zamvort and saw toto um and he's been on the show i get on very well with him and and i said how's life and he he actually said he said um i mean you know this anyway so it's not a headline to you he goes well Christian was a bit of a dickhead he said but there's nothing for the team there's nothing between the team principles anymore he's like I didn't agree with the guy but he's missing I think he's missing that relationship despite the fact you didn't see eye to eye and you probably thought each other was a fool at times he just he gave me this impression that actually he thinks Formula 1 is maybe worse off without some of him to spar against It's like, who's talking about the team principles now?

1:13:27Well, the problem is Zach's not going to piss him off because he'll lose a cylinder on his engine. So, you know, you've immediately killed that one. So, you know, we're just different. I think that, you know, Toto, you know, he's got his way of doing things. I've got my way of doing things. And, yeah, I said to him, look, make hay when I'm not there. Well, you're not there. Yeah. So the ambition is to return still. Do you know what? When I first came out of the sport, it was like, how do I get back? There's an element of fuck you to it. I want to prove all these people. I'm going to go and take all the people and I'm going to build it up again and I'm going to go again.

1:14:15And then I think as you decompress, you get more perspective. and you know it's the first time in probably 35 years that I haven't been rushing around the world that I've had time I'm in a fortunate position that I don't have to rush back into a into a role I'm taking on doing other stuff I'm doing some consultancy with you know some great guys at Oakley on looking at different projects and sports projects and America's Cup and and stuff like that. And for me, again, it just has re-endorsed in my mind that I love the sport. I love Formula One. I love the competition. I miss the people. I miss that.

1:15:00I don't miss the politics. I don't miss the pressure and all the bullshit that goes with it. And I think if I'm going to go back, I only want to go back with a team that wants to win, that is like-minded, that has good people involved, that you're going to be empowered to make a difference. Because there's no point in doing something with your hands tied behind your back. You know, I'd rather, I'm happy doing what I'm doing. you know I'd rather not go back than go back for the wrong thing. And you mentioned Ferrari team principle being something that you would consider. Was that a little bit of mischief making?

1:15:47No it wasn't. That was, do you know what, that was obviously the publishers of the book, they asked me to do an interview with a supplement. And there was a really nice guy that came, turned up and he's a Lewis fan and he's asking me about all these different teams. And he talked about Ferrari. And I thought, you know, being respectful to Ferrari, look, if I went back into Formula One, primarily I would want to have skin in the game and equity. I'm not desperate to go back into a team principal role sitting on a pit bull. I've been there. I've done that. You know, what I'm looking at is that would be something much more strategic, much more, you know, as an overview.

1:16:29And I was asked about Ferrari. And of course, you know, Ferrari are never going to sell shares in their team. They are the most historic and biggest brand in Formula One. Bernie always used to like them to the, well, they're the Rolling Stones, the new lot of the support act.

1:16:50So, you know, there is a prestige around Ferrari and there's a prestige of either being a driver for Ferrari or an engineer or, you know, even a team principal. I guess that was what I was saying is that Ferrari is different to others. Now, I've not had any discussion with Ferrari. I'm not in discussion with Ferrari. And certainly it wasn't aimed to put any pressure at all on Fred, who I think has done a great job. You know, I recommend it. You know, Fred is a good candidate. And, you know, he's got a great pedigree and a great history, obviously. but again it shows that if you're not quite there the pressure of this sport and and it was just unfortunate that this headline comes out that you know horner's uh ferrari is my my dream job it wasn't intended like that in any way i was merely trying to say look ferrari is ferrari is different to the other teams, not Ferrari is my dream.

1:17:59It's a good one you're a man who's no stranger to headlines, right? But again, it seemed to generate so many headlines. But there we go. And what was the cost of it to you personally to go through such acute pressure? Of course, you're in a public role. You're a public person. Of course, that's... and it's not so much the effect that it has on you personally, it's all the people around you. Sure. You know, your kids, your parents, your brothers, their kids at school, you know, all of those things, that's horrible.

1:18:43But, you know, you stick to your own beliefs, your own path, your own values and sure and yeah you've just got to get on with it and it is an important thing to talk about as a man in the position you're in been in formula one like was there a period where you think your mental health was affected whether you want to call it depression or something else i never felt that i got depressed because i'm i'm always kind of a half glass full kind of guy rather than a glass half empty. It made me appreciate what I had around me, and it motivated me that, you know, I'm not, my Formula One time didn't finish the way that I would have liked.

1:19:33Now, maybe that is my time in Formula One. Maybe, you know, that period, that 20 years or 21 years I did with Red Bull, maybe that's it, you know. 14 championships and 124 race wins, not a bad run. But I would prefer for it to be on my terms when I say I want to, I'm done with the sport rather than it being, okay, that's it. You're just not required anymore. so I think that in turn gives you an energy to rise up and go again, brush yourself down and Jerry often said to me, look the higher your rise the sharper the knives

1:20:24you know and that's life But you've got to the top of the mountain and realised there's nothing there Yeah So why do you need to climb again? I could become a sheep farmer. Is that going to fulfil? Maybe. Maybe it will. I've seen on your Instagram your carrots and beans at the local country show. You cleaned up. Best parsnip at the... Back on the top step of the podium again, I thought to myself. The Three Villages, you know, village show. So, look, that's a great trophy to have on your shelf.

1:20:58So if the right thing comes that really motivates me, that I feel that I can make a difference in, that I think I can win, you know, I'd do it. I mean, I look back at the Red Bull time with great pride. I'm grateful for Dietrich and for Helmut for giving me that chance. I'm tremendously proud of what we did during that time. I'm tremendously proud of what they continue to do, particularly with Rebel Powertrains, you know, because for me that was a startup that was created from scratch, you know, five years ago. And it's understated what they've achieved with that engine. You know, the fact that it's ahead of all the engines, according to the FIA, as the most powerful engine in Formula 1 is a hell of an achievement in its first year.

1:21:53So, yeah, I look back with pride and I'm kind of excited and inquisitive. You know, what does the future have? Would you like to go in above team principle, like involved in the management of everyone? I look at what a team principle is now. Are you talking about within liberty or within a team or? Just a more senior role. I think that the job title team principle is so varied for what the function is. the job title team principal for so many functions now is more of a sporting director you know when i came into formula one the team principals were the entrepreneurial leaders it was a ron dennis it was a frank williams it was a peter sauber and eddie jordan you know they were they were owners as well as uh you know running their team on a uh you know on a sunday ron used to do the lollipop at the pit stop.

1:22:47And that's changed so much now that I would say if I look around the room now or before I left, there was really only Toto and I as the old school sort of team principal as they used to be. Zach to a degree, in fairness. But the rest are just kind of a mashup between sporting directors and team managers. So the role has changed in many teams, you know, quite dramatically. And I think you need team principals with personality. So they're like the Jose Mourinho's, the Sir Alex Ferguson's. Otherwise you're losing a whole layer of interest, I think, in that sport. I spoke with him, with Jose, because he was always massively, you know, passionate about Formula One.

1:23:36And he liked how Red Bull operated. He said, you guys are a bit like me. He says, you've got to come back. You've got to come back. It feels a bit different now, I think, Red Bull. It's like, it feels different. Red Bull was the maverick. It was the challenger. It was the one that wasn't afraid to ruffle up the establishment. And you've got to have an edge. You've got to have, if you're going to take on some of those entities in the sport, you've got to be not afraid to ruffle a few feathers. I was going to ask, this period of reflection, that you've had out of the sport. If you were to go back into it, what are the skills, qualities or characteristics that you've now acquired through this period that you'd be taking back into a new organisation?

1:24:23I think you get perspective. You get perspective on life on what is important and what isn't. I think, I mean, the reality is you recognise more than ever, and from the outside looking in a bit, again, it's a people business. It's backing people. it's giving people the opportunity creating an environment in which they can thrive and and it's got to be fun otherwise what's the point you know obviously it would have been the most terrible time but actually in a strange way you know losing beverly your former partner at the time that you were going through your darkest moment in some ways could have been the thing that saved you actually and reminded you that it's just a job yeah yeah and in many respects the timing for me with the way it all played out you know i'm a believer in fate things happen for a reason it gave me the time to be with my family to be with my daughter at a time that we were grieving a family member that I wouldn't have had if I was still on that hamster wheel of race to race, all the shit that goes with running an organization like that.

1:25:42So for me to have had that moment to take a breath, to be present, to go to kids' hockey matches, to go to parents' evening, to pick kids up from school and then, who are you? You know, that is the most fulfilling, and you don't get that time back. You know, I've listened to some of your stuff. You're so right about the time that you have with your children. It passes so quickly, and you never get that time back. So to have been able to, you know, to do all these different things, you know, that's a gift. And how powerful that you spent all that time around people driving in Formula One who we call gladiators and then the true gladiator is actually your daughter on that stage, able to stand up and show genuine strength, real human strength at a time when she needed it the most.

1:26:41Totally. And that on a day that my world had fallen apart gave me the, the light to go. If she can stand up there and do that, then there's nothing that you can't do. Did you make sure you tell her how proud you were of her? I'll make sure she listens to this. Yeah. And make sure you tell her as well. Yeah. I tell her every day. I think that's important. You've got to tell your kids, I grew up in an environment where it was a bit soft if you said you love your mom and your dad and so on. It was all a bit more stiff upper lip. My parents love us all very much. But I think being able to express and telling your kids that you love them, telling them that you're proud of them is so, so important.

1:27:35it's so important and having the gift of time to have been able to spend with them you know i'm grateful for that i'm grateful that i've had that opportunity at this juncture in my life that yeah you know you get to experience the things that i that i'd been too busy to recognize as being important previously but also you can come and talk like this who have who saw this christian horner in the 20 years that you were running a formula one i think when when you you know when you're in a job like that you go to work and you put you put your batman suit on and the persona of who you are as a leader of an organization is you're presenting a a front of strength of direction because you don't want first of all your opposition to see any form of weakness you don't want anybody within your organization to see any form of vulnerability because you know the perception is you have to be the pillar of strength for you know for all that goes around you and and i think having taken off that batman suit you know you see who bruce wayne is essentially i'm not saying i'm bruce wayne but but you know what they're they're different people yeah yeah you know i'm a human being like anybody's i'm a dad like many many millions of you know and i had one of the most amazing high pressure jobs that was a boyhood dream and i'm proud to have done that i'm proud to have done what i've done and look, if I don't go back to the sport, then I've had a hell of a blast and managed to achieve a few good things.

1:29:29Your new book is fascinating. We read it before this interview. There is so much in drive for people to get their teeth into, but also they can see you live as well. You're going to be traveling around. I'm going on tour. No way. I'm going on tour. Christian on tour. It's amazing. We're taking a week during the first week of half term, so the kids are all coming and everything like that. and we're going to York, we're going to Glasgow, we're going to Bath, we're going to Nottingham, back here to London. So I'm looking forward to that. Have you got a ride for your dressing room, Christian? Are you making demands of blue M &Ms taken out of the bowl?

1:30:06No, no, nothing like that. You know, just Jaffa cakes or something like that would be good for me. But you actually, you know, you get to see now the people that have watched you on the TV for years. It's going to be fascinating, actually. Yeah. Sharing your thoughts. It's going to be, you know, just walking here today, I get people, I had some bloke hang out with a truck and go, when are you coming back, mate? And, you know, you forget what an impact Formula One has, how popular the sport is, you know, not just in this country, but globally, the success and phenomenon of Formula One is quite unbelievable.

1:30:47Look, we're going to finish now with some quickfire questions. These are brought to you by our partner Vitality. The Life and Health Insure are proven to help you live up to five years longer through rewarding healthy living. So let's go for it. Three non-negotiable behaviours. Well, honesty, but it's obviously at the other end of the spectrum. But owning up to mistakes, you've got to own your shit. What's your biggest strength? My family. Your greatest weakness? the fear of not being accepted. Really? You know, it's like I would worry when I first came into Formula One, and I think it hardens you.

1:31:31I'd worry about what people thought. And then actually you realize that you can't influence what people think, just be yourself. And so pretty early on, and I think Formula One roughens you up pretty quickly for that. what's the best piece of advice you've ever received and why abadabbi 2010 just before the grand prix lights five minutes before the start bernie eccleston walks over goes like that you bend down to listen to him and he says don't fuck it up just what you need at that moment in time what advice would you give to a young christian just starting out on this journey? Follow your dreams.

1:32:17Follow your instincts. And stick to your instincts. Stick to what your beliefs are. Don't be influenced by others. Stick to your own philosophies and your own beliefs. And the final question, what does high performance mean to you? High performance, for me, it's about ultimately it's about winning it means performing to the best of your ability with the instruments tools skill sets that you have so it's being the best version of yourself that you can be thank you so much and of course you can find out more about living longer at vitality.co.uk the life and health insurer that uses a behavior change program to incentivize healthy lifestyle choices.

1:33:12I mean, I've known you for a very long time. I don't think I've ever seen this side of you. And I think sometimes out of the toughest moments can actually come the greatest blessings. And, you know, I think back to that guy who I watched being booed at the O2 thinking, I do know this guy and I don't believe that you do if you're doing that. And I know how hard that moment would have been for you. And I think for you to now finally be able to tell your story like this, I think is really important. And thank you for choosing high performance to come and do that i appreciate the opportunity damien jake well i think that was not a christian horner that i'd ever seen before really well bear in mind i first met him in 2009 worked with him and interviewed him on a weekly basis until the start of 2013 i've then remained involved in f1 through whisper group and i've seen christian two three times a year since then and there's always been a barrier up because of his job right i've never seen him emotional i've never seen him talk about personal things i've never heard him reflect on the tough moments in his life at red bull um there was always because there had to be there was always i mean he spoke about it didn't he about as soon as he sits in front of the mic up comes the zip on the back suit so i think it was a real privilege to be the first people to kind of get him to take that bat suit off and there will still be people that listen to that interview and will criticize and have an opinion and we're not sitting here saying that christian's whiter than white or that he got everything right i think what we're saying is he's a human being who has been absolutely through the ringer yeah and is now telling us the story of what went on yeah Yeah, that's what I took out of it.

1:34:55The idea that often there's a person behind the headlines that we don't think about the cost of, you know, when he spoke about his wife, his children, his parents, his brothers, their children, the cost of some living a life in the headlines like this was very real and very visceral. You could see the scars that it had left on him. What stands out to you from the conversation? I think the danger of allowing what you do to become who you are and I think you know he spoke really quite powerfully about that the shock of that moment of being told that after 20 years of giving your heart and soul to a business sorry mate that the time's up and the process he's had to go through to actually realize it's not about the job it's about the family your loved ones the impact that you have on them that's a big message for lots of us that sometimes allow our role to take over our real identity what about you i think the big thing that stands out to me from that conversation is the importance of the women in his life you know the yeah the death of his former partner beverly around the time that he lost his job which is obviously tragic but at the same time it led to him seeing such strength from his young daughter who's the same age as my youngest one yeah to see that um obviously was a was a moment that put everything into perspective for him then the other important woman in the conversation is his wife jerry and how she has been so loyal to him stood alongside him defended him protected him and that moment where he talked about the two moments where he was most emotional was talking about his daughter on stage at school but also talking about when jerry walked him into the paddock yeah in bahrain and how much that obviously meant to him i think I thought it was a really, really interesting conversation from a man who has made mistakes, big mistakes, from a man who feels I almost lost control of that team.

1:36:56People were leaving, headlines were being written. But the person who's emerged from it is someone who I think will be back in Formula One. You think he will? Yeah. I think you can still tell he has that, something's burning for him to get back in, yeah. Yeah. Do you think he'll take on a similar role or do you think he'll come back in a different... I think he'll end up being part of an ownership group for a team. Right. That's what I think. Unless someone throws a huge amount of money at him to go in and look after a team. You know, if I was Lawrence Stroll, I'd be spending a lot of money to try and get Christian to join me.

1:37:33And really help that team because I think you do a great job. But let's see. Well, whoever does, they're going to get a man that's got a sense of perspective, got a greater sense of empathy and he's focused on what really matters. I think it'll be fascinating to see him come back. Yeah. Thanks a lot, mate. Cheers, mate. And I hope you enjoyed that conversation. If you like chats with people from Formula One, obviously the High Performance Back catalogue is full of those kinds of conversations. So please make sure you take a look at those. And we look forward to you leaving comments, sharing the episode, hitting the like button, hitting the subscribe button.

1:38:05And we'll see you again for another episode of High Performance. Stay humble, curious, and empathetic. Bye for now.

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