Craig Bellamy: Why I Had to Hide Behind a Persona & How I Lead Wales With Honesty (E368)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance app. here for the tiniest period loving every second to be in so when my time does come i do not know when i go i was top that is the voice of craig bellamy former premier league star and current manager of the wales national team and you'll know craig from his time at clubs like newcastle liverpool man city or west ham norwich of course my favorite but behind the headlines and the reputation that Craig had was a far deeper story one of fear anxiety and this constant battle to stay in control and oh my life what a searingly honest conversation this is Craig is about to open up about his real journey from the beginning I've read and seen so much about Craig but this stuff I've never heard him talk about or seen him discuss Craig's about to share why fear and insecurity drove him to the top but also robbed him of his joy he shares the truth about his mental health, his drinking and why he created a persona just to survive in the world of elite football.

1:29He tells us what he learned from his dear friend Gary Speed and the moment that he knew he had to seek help. And I love it when he talks about the fact that he's found freedom in coaching, in love and finally in being himself. Craig also reveals what he believes it means to lead Wales with the spirit of Gary Speed behind him and the powerful moment when he passed a mural of Gary and he knew yeah this is a job for me you know this is one of the most raw and emotionally open conversations we've ever had on this show it's full of lessons on identity growth and letting go please don't just listen to this if you're a football fan if you're not into football but you want personal growth you want to understand the human beings better you want to know what is really going on when people are at the very very top of their game and they're in the public guy then this is a conversation for you i found it incredibly moving and can i just say craig if you're listening to this intro i'm so pleased that by the end of our chat it really felt like you're in a great place and i hope it's a place that you stay for a long time right please remember to hit follow on apple or spotify so you never miss an episode so we can bring you more incredible stories like this as we bring you former footballer and wales manager craig bellamy to high performance

2:47Craig, welcome to High Performance. Thank you. We're very much looking forward to celebrating your career and the things that you've done and where you are now. I wonder if we went to one of your players at Wales and asked them, tell us about Craig Bellamy as a football manager. What would you like them to say? I would like them to say first and foremost that they enjoy it. To me, that's the most important. And then playing-wise, calm. I think you have to be. I don't see the needs in any type of like ranting or raving and just really habits. It's always habits. Work early. Reactions. Recovery runs.

3:30And I believe you get to enjoy it then. You enjoy it more. Enjoy the other side of the game. So my biggest bit was, do you know what? I love playing for him. That would be the best compliment I could ever get. Are you enjoying it? Yeah. Yeah, I've loved it. I've loved it. I wasn't sure. I like coaching. I like being out every day. You know, even the little bits in the morning, setting up the pitches and like that was peace. And I really enjoyed that. Like I would make it even more complicated by having those like lines where you have to put the pegs in where you don't need to, a disc can do it.

4:05But I had to be perfect and like one station and the next station, next station. I love doing that in the mornings. I felt this was, it wasn't something I was looking for because I'm really I like being happy and I like being content and this is what's working for me at this present moment I'm like don't need to move don't need to look for the next I don't know I just felt there was something coming like it just towards the end of that Premier League season with Burnley I've sort of seen the championship I've seen the Premier League and little questions were like would I survive in this? Would I be able to do this?

4:44And then the only way is you're going to have to find out then. I'm interested by that term. It was peace. From what? Always from me. Always. Because I'm a serial overthinker. If something's going really well in my life, that makes me uncomfortable. I need chaos. So I felt. So it's got to be something else. but then being content and being present um i started to really understand that what present meant and allows me to slow down allows me to enjoy um and that's all i want to do it's um is find that enjoyment um and it could be from the small things you know it doesn't have to be a defining moment or your work and you know it could be just tiny like i just had a coffee then five minutes ago nice yeah that was perfect at that time you know so those little moments cherish but also be present around people as well um i tend to like if my world wasn't in the right place where i needed to i could literally not really speak you get two words out of me and it wasn't because of you it's nothing to do with you but i just how i deal with my mind racing so allowing breathing stay calm and just i don't know the older you get the better you you know the better you learn about yourself.

6:07And I felt, you know, I've come into an age of being through all these experiences and they've helped me. They've helped me. So I'm probably getting the best version of me right now. So this time probably doing this interview is a very good time for you guys. Brilliant. Because you said you needed chaos. What do you mean by that? Because I always feel if this is going too well, where's my next one? Then I have to push again. Like, don't settle for this. So all these habits, you know football can teach you a lot of really good habits but it can teach you a lot of bad ones as well if i lost the game it was don't speak to anyone two three days you know like sleepless nights over stuff and even if i scored and scored two i should have scored three or i missed that before and that would eat me up more than what you've just done um so you're always like searching for more when actually you need to just enjoy what's happening now you know even defeats actually enjoy them because they're only you're only going to improve it's only going to make you better and that's where you know that fear runs out you understand what i mean it was like because we're run off fear and we're taught fear we're taught that and i really don't like it it's not something i want hanging over me um nor like in coaching i never want to play it to ever feel any of that it's not fear it's a game of football it's a game of football in life there's a lot more going on there's a lot harder this is enjoyment and we get to bring enjoyment to people and for me that's like how can you not enjoy this and part of my career as well was I probably didn't enjoy it enough and I don't want players to go through that you know I love the game this is like the greatest game in the world and I'm so proud to say that and I was a part of it and I'm still a part of it now but it's there to be enjoyed it's not there to be, oh, what happens if this happens?

7:58What happens if that happens? Because we're always fighting. You could lose your place or someone could get bored and, you know, so you're always in competition mode. But embrace it. Enjoy that side.

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9:51so when was fear first present then for you fear was from a young age from a young age when she started coming into full-time like apprentices that's what we were at that time and then even like i was i was a young father as well at 17 then fear comes in like if i don't get a contract who's going to put food on his table who's going to where's he going to live how am i going to live how am I going to provide so those moments then it become real it become real weren't just me I had someone else to look after and then I just that like put me in overdrive but also it gave me a lot of a lot of motivation I wouldn't recommend it for most 17 year olds it was like a big driving force but also when I look back now that taught me a lot of a lot of negativity as well.

10:44So let's go back then to 17-year-old Craig Bellamy, playing at arguably the greatest football club in the world, Norwich City. How would you describe your kind of, not just your mentality, but how that mentality informed and impacted your daily behaviors around that time? No, mine, at that time, I spent my first year as a 16-year-old playing in and out. I wasn't as quite developed as some players. So I was in and out and homesick a lot. And I have to be honest, I wanted out. This was like, I want to do what my friends are doing back home. This is actually, I didn't realize how hard football was.

11:23How much you got to dedicate yourself to the game. You know, sleeping at the right time, waking up, training, eating the right foods. It was just so much like that comes into not just the playing side. You know, there's so much rounded that makes that player. And I wasn't sure if I had the appetite for it. you know like you know there was times I wanted to tap out times I wanted out but I didn't want to make the decision so what's easy then create a problem get involved in an incident then they chuck you out like what sort of stuff got involved in a fight as a kid you know at Norwich yeah yeah so I got a severe first warning second time round warning didn't come so when I went home for a long weekend didn't come back so they waited they taught me patience as well they taught me they knew what i was trying to do but they weren't going to let me out of that so they wanted it if it's going to be your decision it's got to be your decision we ain't making this for you so by then i was like well i can't quit because i don't want that living with me i'd be much easier if you make the decision for me then i can blame you for the rest of my life probably i won't do because after about 10-15 years i realize it was all me but I don't want to be that person sat around in a local area and local pubs like everyone else was blaming everyone else so that was like that didn't sit with me either I don't want to be or I would have made it but it was this or it was that that coach and I didn't want to be that person couldn't be that person um so by sticking it out and then back next season in July it was towards the end of the end of July then I knew I was going to become a father and I was literally left with the decision of if I'm going to do this, I've got to do this properly.

13:07You know, if it doesn't work, at least I can look him in the eyes and say, look, I wasn't good enough, but I'd done everything I could to be the best I could be. If it does work, then we can do okay maybe. So that made a decision for me and that was, I didn't look back. Like the amount of water I was drinking, sleeping well and then my performances just started to, you know, I went from a talented player to literally like de-play it in the team. You know, I got offered a pro contract within a couple of months after that. Like, ended up captaining the team that won a league in the South East Cowboys, which is like tough.

13:42That league was like Lampard's and all that, West Ham, Rio's and everyone, Jodie Morris at Chelsea, like here in Dierdips, which is like, this was a tough, tough league and we won it by a, by a mile. We were top and I was a real, I was, I was a player for that. And that really, then I made my debut within that season as well. but then that just gave me the drive. Generally, you know, when you're doing everything right, it's no coincidence that performance is starting creeping up. So that was my mind, like, well, this has to be this then. So you were at Norwich. Yeah. The mentality was challenging for a while, but you sorted things out.

14:21And then you left to go to Coventry, and eventually you ended up at Newcastle, right? Yeah. I think we should talk about Newcastle, because when we look at you now as this manager that talks about calm and contentment and joy in your football, people will remember a very different player than Newcastle. Yeah. What are your memories of that time? Oh, I loved it. Even like commentary one situation, I meant like, don't forget I got relegated the season before that. I had very little impact. It was only a year after my Cruciate. I did not only have an impact playing-wise, at times I did, but it wasn't consistent or anywhere near enough for what commentary needed.

14:57but I also felt like a shell of myself I wasn't arguing with people I wasn't and then when I went to Newcastle I was like I understood the stadium I understood like this is like now or never but I'm going to be me you know like this cape's coming on because if I really looked at it and I looked at the 50 odd thousand empty stadium because I went to the stadium I was like I can't play in this I have huge anxiety as well like being around people and it's a big big problem for me it always has been from a young age which i didn't quite understand until you get a little bit older but you got to put up like cape on then it's like well this is who i'm going to be then put the mask on get ready get going fight um no one believes in me i'll show you all you know it was that type because i remember the radio stations even up there because it was not easy to listen to but i wanted to listen to it because i remember like someone went to turn it down a guy who was driving me i was like no turn it up it was like why are we signing craig bellamy just got relegated done nothing why are we paying this money for him this is where newcastle newcastle are going to be fighting relegation again next year and i was like okay okay now we're gonna have to see now we're gonna have to see and it just that was it and even when i done well at the start i was like oh you lot weren't keen on me by the way you know oh now you are now you are now i'm suddenly a decent player for you so that just drove me it was like um then i because i was doing well being that but it was like i have to be this person and what is this person just like aggressive completely like when i went onto the pitch like i was the best player trust me i'm the best player everyone's here to watch me if they ain't they're gonna be talking about me after the game now off the pitch i'm like that completely isn't true it's like yeah do you know when you just reality hits oh what am i gonna do here like they're so good he's so good and incredible but by the time i got on that pitch i was like no I'm the best one.

16:53So you said that you were suffering from anxiety. So how would that manifest itself off the field? No, it was even as a kid. Even as a kid, yeah. And where does that come from, do you think? It's family. Yeah, it's family. Yeah. So it can get passed down as well. It was part of people in my family suffer from it as well. Quite badly as well, even to this day. I didn't quite understand because football releases you. Do you understand? When you're playing with your friends out in the field, a ball can keep 40 50 kids happy and we were always playing best thing about football especially playing out in the field or street there was no age gap so whenever like in you come and if you're quite good you stay in you know and um so that released me do you understand where being in confined spaces being around like in a classroom say for instance around a load of people wasn't great for me it wasn't like i just you know like if there was one kid looking to get out the door it was me you know what was happening in your in your head then at that moment i don't it's difficult to tell because i didn't quite know at the time you don't you just feel sometimes a little bit socially awkward but for me the only conversations i could have was about football that was the only way so if you were teaching me a subject i've learned from that even to this day now it was like teachers were quite good at well if you don't want to learn stay at the back of the class don't interrupt the ones who do want to you learn sorry so i'd be at the back no problem that's like great for me but actually it's not quite correct like a teacher would be well why don't you want to learn there must be something i can trigger you to get you to learn now if football's well i'll teach you in this type of way and i feel like that's would have worked hugely for me now i'm not blaming all teachers but also obviously myself as a responsibility for that But when you learn, you're like, well, for me, it was like, I try and bring everything back to football.

18:45Now, if we're talking about history, you know, for instance, I know a little bit about Austria because I know their main player. So from the 40s, who literally died in Second World War. So I'm like, that brings me back to that history. What happened there? You know, so I try and bring everything back football related because it just stimulates me and gets me able to learn. so yeah but when you don't and I get uncomfortable with certain situations and I was just it was just quite normal for me really and I always felt that I didn't like going out not just games the only time you go out really is when you socialized but in drink it's easy to socialize then you're like you know so it's and that's not a way to live either and the the anxiety element like I guess you're saying like a parent of yours had anxiety as well yeah yeah uncles did you ever talk about that as a family no i didn't know it it wasn't like anything brought in now we know a lot more yeah um but at that time and don't forget even with football coaching as well there'd be nerves so you were careful about talking about nerves careful about talking about anxiety leading into a game um and i wasn't because i was fearful of a game wasn't that it was just how i was it was just how did i bring this up now in order to do that i can't go with those over riding thoughts so by the time that hour came before the game like this person has to come up i have to let go of all this and this person has to come up and then boom so it sounds like you'd almost created a persona completely completely so how would you describe that i know you said about that character that turned up at newcastle was aggressive or arguing or got that sense of confidence but how would you feel when you took on that role at that time it worked it was working so great as soon as the game finished drained drained just like watch myself back no way couldn't watch a game back knowing me in it impossible it's like who is that and actually cringing you know even like things like arguing with the refs and I dislike now I understand the motion and don't forget my father was a ref so maybe that was probably why I was having to go because I was having to go with him you know no no he's a brilliant dad um but no it was um yeah it was just that that feeling of like Like, I don't know.

21:20I feel sometimes the most insecure is the loudest. And I think you've seen real insecurity. You might see it as confidence. You might see it as like, no, it isn't. It's disguised. But actually, you see that with players even. I see it now. But it's how do you channel it? I need you with more energy. Because our intensity is like, has to be up. Now, arguing, getting involved, throwing arms, all this, you're wasting energy. That's all you're doing. it's going to not allow you to perform better you need as much energy as you can to be on the ball and to press at a certain time set triggers so we need all that energy let it go let it go as soon as you make a power pass let it go what about the next one give it again give it away again what about the next one you know it's not a problem but we need that energy now imagine the amount of energy and i was a real high intense player my sprint distance was probably something that could live in today's game, even though that's cranked up again.

22:17But the energy I used by getting involved and emotionally involved was draining, was draining. I think I would have been a better player. But I find it really telling that you said that insecurity is often the loudest. Was there anyone that recognized that to be able to help you channel it? No, no, I don't. We weren't as educated as what we're getting into now. Over the last five odd years um you would have known even on your podcast now the people you're speaking to you're seeing a different side now now a lot of people who don't want to know will disregard everything that's all this it's not there's always an element is how can we improve um and everything if you even look at life and you look at these interviews now you'll be like how can we get the best one next how can we improve again but everything even like myself it wasn't when i finish football allow me to look like how can I be a better person how can I be a better dad how can I be a better partner you know it was always like my self-awareness is a big strength of mine I don't always get it right I don't want to be perfect nor do I try to pretend to be but how can I improve you know everything that happened in the past is only it's only a lesson right now everything got concentrated while I was being present and the future is just only motivation it's only motivation and i just try and stay in those moments mate that is so powerful i sort of have this image you know when you spoke at the beginning about you like putting the cones out because it was a moment of peace i sort of hear you talking and i think your head at that time when you were you know norwich coventry newcastle and the subsequent clubs it sounds to me like an exhausting place to be in your head oh i honestly even when i finished i was like I can breathe.

24:10I can breathe. Okay, it took me about five, six weeks to stop limping out of the bed. It's normal. Your body's going to take impact. I had like six knee-ups. But it was like, allow me to just go, like, let go. And then you always reflect. You always do. It's normal. What was your career? What did you enjoy the most? And I got to be honest, I was like so grateful for my career. I got to play like the best game in the world and playing stadiums I could only ever dream of, have moments you could only ever dream of. I didn't win trophies. People like to brainwash you into the feeling of, well, you've got to win stuff and that proves you.

24:48You keep eating it. Only very few win. Very few win. Trust me, it's like, but for me to get where I got to with the body I have and everything, I won. I might not have Premier League trophies, but I'm telling you, I won. You know, that's like, that's the trophy. nothing can beat that trophy for me so i look back and i'm like beyond grateful anything else would be just greed too much what i had was like beyond grateful for and even when you peel it back again i'm like i wish i enjoyed it more do you know the moment you get like a little bit nervous before something or you know anxiety kicked in it was like what am i being like why am i beating myself up over this i've always wanted to do this how can i not enjoy it i can also like I lost?

25:35Is it the end of the world? Really? Two days time, I can change it. You know, very rare in life you're able to do that. Sometimes you have to, you know, Olympic athletes not have four years to worry about it the next time around. You know, and it was like, no, let it go. Let it go. And it doesn't mean you don't care. Of course you do. But there's ways of being able to, you know, you learn from it. That's a moment that, how do I get, I know that scenario, I know this. And you have a better chance than if you relax and you find computer zone than when you play. the best moments you have like but effortless you couldn't put a foot wrong because your mind was completely not worried about this if I give this away or that happens or this happens and you're thinking all the negative thoughts it just drains you like I wish I found computer zone and learned how to find out a lot more What do you mean computer zone?

26:22Just almost emotionally dead? Just in the game Yeah Living in the moment you know playing the game is the game Because you said a moment ago and you almost threw it away you said I'd have been so much better Easily because you're just you're tense and when you're tense and you're working yourself up, you're draining energy. And in our game, we need energy, you know, to be able to play with freedom, to be able to like control the ball. If that ball comes into you, I passed you a ball and I passed the heart and it's in your head straight away, I'm going to miscontrol this. I guarantee you're going to miscontrol it.

26:53But if you're already thinking, watch this now, watch this for a touch, boom, hit, because your mind's already there. So finding those moments all the time. If I'm going to hit a diagonal or whatever, like watch this for a ball now, boom, it'll hit it. If I'm thinking, oh, I could shank this now, guarantee you've got a great chance of happening. How often would you be, would your brain be going, you're going to shank this, you're going to miscontrol this? No, you're always on a personal battle. So if I'm one-on-one with a goalkeeper, I'm going to miss. Boom, I missed. And how often was your brain telling you the negative rather than the positive?

27:21It would try. It was like a complete fight. All game. It was a battle, yeah. But even the night before, I'd have to take a sleeping tablet before a game. It was a fight. I'd always want to be sleeping. Impossible. you can't tell me what I'm about to do tomorrow what's going to happen because my mind was just like I needed like the only way to sleep was to take a sleeping tablet before from the age of about 20, 21 before every single game took a sleeping tablet I didn't live off them but before every game because otherwise I wouldn't sleep impossible Did you ever seek help at this stage? No, didn't know it was I really didn't know it was there and even one or two people were speaking to psychologists and you know that started like who does that like what's he going to do make you play better you know that's the mindset you know it wasn't and yeah and it was only till later on then it was only till certain instances happened and make you reflect make you look at yourself it's like well where am I going you know what's my world going to be like because this is going to end this game is going to end for me wherever we like it I ain't playing anymore after the set and I'm like god a big chunk of my life to live.

28:34How do I want to live that? So I need to start, I'm going to really, like seriously, like look at myself and what habits, you know, because otherwise there's only one way you can turn. I say there's two ways. I've gone to pub every day and drink while I don't be here. So really, if you think about it, I want to be here. So I need to have a really, really good look at myself. Is that really what your brain was thinking? Yeah. Yeah, no, I'll tell you what it was, mostly. How crazy it was, it was like something bad's going to happen to me. Because it's been so good. I'm going to have to pay for it somewhere.

29:11You know, it's got to. Now, whether it's an illness, whether it's something like that, that's what my mind was. You know, my life's been too good. You know, I've got to experience such a high, I've got to be able to pay for this somewhere down the line. Yeah, it wasn't an easy way. It wasn't an easy way being young. you said some things happened that meant you then did seek therapy are you happy to tell us what those things were yeah no yeah it was um when speedo passed away gary yeah when gary yeah gary passed away um it was a moment i couldn't understand i didn't see it coming like we don't um then you look back and it's like it's not him there's no way but i know how clever he was incredible leader incredible person would give you the right advice but kick him up the backside when you needed it as well and which you always respected because you knew he'd come from a good place with him when that happened in a strange moment because he was going so well for him at Wales loved it loved what he was doing with us but also that person I was with him for four odd years and respected and really admired really admired him it was like well if it can happen to him we're all in trouble and that's how I felt it was like I need to have a real and I was lucky we have a doctor at Liverpool called Zaf I think he's at Arsenal now just had a quiet word and he just said look I'd like you to go and see someone and I was like I'm sure you know because it's a little bit new to me so we explained the person like Steve Peters and then I got to spend time with him and it was a complete different world and what was it that meeting with Steve did for you?

30:55It was just going through a lot of your fears and, you know, like I was so, it was like, what would, what scares you the most about retiring? And for me was not winning a trophy. That I feel my career would be a complete failure if I don't win that trophy. And he was like, okay, you understand how crazy that sounds? Because like your career has been incredible. you know it's like you don't need a trophy for that now if you get one brilliant but you don't need because i looked at it like i was always like i lost the semi-final year semi but when i look back i lost the better team i didn't lose to like wickham or any you know i lost to the better team every time where's the shame in that you can't do nothing more than your best if someone outperforms you brilliant you have to accept it it's not like but if you didn't perform and you and a team you should have beat and because you didn't prepare yourself then you can understand that haunting you but when you lost out to actually the better team and actually when I really looked through it was like yeah three months after seeing him I won a trophy the first time and do you know when I picked that trophy up it's like is this what I've been worried about I got a game in three days time this is it this is supposed to give me it's like then I realized what are you doing like what are you like where's your mind got you to chase this and now suddenly you think this is gonna fulfill everything and you can retire happy now and it's like no actually I actually felt better before I've been chasing this it didn't give me any you know like accomplishment like Every day, getting into training first, leaving last, working, being the best you can be.

32:48That's winning. That was for me was like, that's my reward. You know, this is what turning up every single day to try and be better. That for me was like, that's winning. You know, that's the buzz. That's the buzz for me. And I think it's so important you say that because there will be so many players and you will manage some of them at Wales who are handcuffed by this need to win a trophy, thinking it validates their entire career and brings them a happiness. But you know... It's a myth. But you know, complete myth. But you know, if you're playing in League Two and you're doing everything you can to be there.

33:21Now, if you didn't, you'd be in conference or conference South, conference North. But your best is there in League Two. You've won. That's your Everest. You've won. You don't need to like... The others get Premier League and, you know, that's maybe out of your reach. But it doesn't mean you're not the best you can be or you shouldn't be anywhere near satisfied. or people should look down and you're thinking, well, that's not like, oh yeah, but he only played that. That's their problem. Let them deal with that because they'll have a big problem with everything. You know, it's not yours. Can you look at yourself in a mirror and say, but you know what was the best I could get to?

33:55You don't need any trophies because that's your trophy. That's what you've done. You've turned up every single day to be the best you can be and this is where it's got you. Otherwise, you would have been lower down and maybe even part-time. It's like, you deserve everything. that's the enjoyment that's the buzz and what did that bring you when you recognised that you had already won what did that do for your performance? I ended up at 32 running more crazy yeah 32 highest intensity I run my best like sprint distance repeated sprints I got to like I think I put pro zone record at the time about 124 in one game so by letting go allow me to be even freer.

34:40Allow me like to, because all it does is just, the more tense you get, the more like you burn in energy. Save that energy because I'm going to need it for elsewhere. And it actually allowed me to perform better. Did it also give you freedom from the things that had happened in the past? Did it help to kind of make sense of like, like the famous fallout you had with Graham Sooners at Newcastle, for example? Yeah, I know. I got to be honest. People talk about regrets. I don't have any in this. I can't buy it. I don't because of course I do would I put myself in that situation again no for those that don't understand would you share the story of what happened there in the situation I don't think honestly it's like for me and I don't mean that as in like I'm happy to talk like anything it's not a problem to me but I only ever learned from it and that's the honest truth I don't like what could I have done differently yeah I could have done something different there so you sort of you spoke out against Graham Souness right no not really it was more look it was a difficult role for him to come into to follow Sir Bobby Robson I feel like results weren't going away and when it weren't going away I felt like he wanted to start a fire then it was someone's got to pay for this this can't be on him so yeah but I can't win because I got this problem then I got that problem but I only felt it was from his creation now other players didn't fall for it I did so I bit back and then that was perfect ammo now should I have it back no manager is always right and I don't like I would have said that 10-15 years ago but I my feeling towards where the club was and where it was going wasn't like under Sir Bobby Robson we were Champions League and people thought it like sort of got out of hand I thought that was a myth where there was only one person who wanted to change and that was Shepard and he's passed away now so I hate talking about and I don't feel it's fair so that's the last time I mentioned his name I'm surprised I actually done it then but um I felt there was the change but he needed some of the blame for it right it's got to be this group it's got to be that group and I didn't feel that was the case I felt Sir Bobby didn't deserve what happened at the time um and it was hard to take when I watched him leave the building was tough was tough because I could see tears in his eyes you know this was a painful one for him it was painful for all of us and then the man management of graham was completely opposite to what so bobby robson was um some people would have felt at that time yeah they need that they need that but i feel a lot of results in time prove the golf yeah prove the golf not the players but you after you'd done a bit of work with steve and you were able to reflect on your career you did you have regrets about that time because it's i almost like to think that Steve helped you realize that you were a different person back then?

37:33No, I think we're all different people in different situations. You don't know what you don't know. So your reaction, you put me into a corner, then my reaction was always to come out. Like, I'll come out swinging, that's it. Like, if I'm in a corner, then I'm fighting. I was sort of, that was my mentality as a young kid. Look, if I had a football, and I took that football out where I lived, be prepared to fight. because that ball might not come back otherwise. You understand? It's like people are going to take it off you. So it's like you have to gain a pack with four or five friends. Like, look, if someone nicks my ball, then we've got to be ready to go.

38:08And it was like, okay. You know, and if someone backed out of that, there was a problem there. So we knew. And if it wasn't my ball, it was someone else's. So every time we went out to play football, you knew there was going to be a fight. And if it wasn't in the game, because someone had kicked someone or they just kicked off there or someone was losing, you knew what was going to happen. so every day of playing where you think it's enjoyment which it completely was but you had that side to you as well it's like i'm ready like i have to be otherwise i ain't gonna be able to play you you know these kids are not gonna allow you to play with them so it's like be ready so that mentality was always there but when it came to that situation it was like sometimes like you just need to breathe take a step back see the bigger picture see what's really happening um And yeah, I just probably wasn't educated or self-aware enough to be able to slow down.

38:59But also all of your career had been built on the fact that you reacted in a sort of fiery way and it was successful for you. It worked for you. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That was learned behavior. It was learned behavior. Not good. But I'm telling you, if I would have learned, if I would have gained the tools I had, if I have now, and if I'd been given those tools earlier, he would allow me to be a better player. Like, people would always convince you into the fact that, yeah, but he needs that. He keeps, that's what makes him play so well, this is what, and it's so not true. But there's another chapter in Paul Ferris's new book, who was a physio at Newcastle when you were there, and he describes the chapter as one player, two managers, two different outcomes, and he describes you with that incident with Sue Ness on one hand, and then he talks about Bobby Robson expressing his frustrations about you.

39:52And you walk in the room and then he puts his arm around the shoulder and tells her how important you are. Yeah. And he says the best football he ever saw was through that second method. Yeah. Which coach do you think did get the best out of you and how and why? Like, Sir Bobby Robson definitely gave me the confidence to be amongst the elite, to be able to live in that. How did he do that? Just like the belief. obviously I was aware of Subbibro Robson's career and the players he's managed and if he's telling me I'm this good and the players he's managed then I must be really good you know it just felt like and even when he went on to a game I felt like I'm 6 foot 2 6 foot 3 you know like he would tell you like a little bit like I can't believe this centre-backs I can't believe they're playing him against you today you're too much for him you're too much for him go and make sure you go and show him that today you know so it just had that and unfortunately sometimes I tell the player you shouldn't be playing against me today you know it was like he'd done so well for me that way but then the opposite way where someone's actually saying well you're not that good a player because that's what it was you know if we're talking about football it's like well good players don't need coaching and I was like clearly I'm not a good player then so my mind then you know obviously I appreciate I'm wasn't as good as you but when someone says that to you made you feel like I didn't feel as valued and that was one of Sunas' methods yeah Good players don't need coaching.

41:19Good players don't need coaching. No one had to tell me how to play. I wasn't him. I wasn't as good as him. I needed coaching. I didn't have that ability. And I just, the way that made me feel compared to what made me feel that way, I know which way I want to coach. I want every player to feel like I did there. What, under Bobby? Completely under Bobby. Isn't it interesting as well, though, that you could remove all of the challenging times in your life, right? And there's a strong argument that if you take all those away, you're not the manager that you are today because to see the other side of the coin is so valuable for you now because you know how it made you feel when you felt belittled, misunderstood, criticized, discarded.

42:05So those are actually valuable moments. That's why I said it like from the past is only lessons. You only learn. You only learn. Good and bad, you know, only improves you. you have to be willing to be able to put yourself in that position to to be self-aware of what did you like what didn't you like what worked for you what didn't work for you and also like everything i even look to do now even coaching there has to be a why every training session there's a reason behind it this is why we're doing this because we've looked at the opposition even from the first moment we're together first meeting it's all about the next like the the next team because i need to know why now if you were like i go back to school if you're telling me do this do that it ain't working for me i won't do that i won't i literally will not do it you know but if you give me a reason why and you allow me to then i'm there but if you don't and you just ordered me i won't do it i won't do it like like my mom would always just say to me like do not just tell him to do it because he won't do it.

43:10And I was like, as a child, you know, I remember once she left the stove on in the kitchen. She was a good mum, you know, it just doesn't, like she is a good mum, she is now. She left the stove on in the kitchen, boiling hot. Straight away, she walks out, she goes, whatever you do, do not touch that stove. I go in the kitchen, I'm stood there for about five minutes looking at her. What's I going to do? Well, then right there, the bump, hand on, burned. She's just outside laughing because she knew I was going to do it, you know, I was always that type of kid, you know? But when you explain it, when you tell it like, can give me written that I'm there, like I'm, I get it.

43:46I get it. And so I look at every player like I was coaching me. How do I get this? How do I, like, cause I was more complicated than most. So I treat everyone as if, well, if I was coaching a young me, this is what, this is what you need. And this is why you need this. I don't believe in any player being injury prone. I feel they're mismanaged. So anyone says an injury-pronged player, it's not true. The training schedule is not right. I believe they're being mismanaged. So be very careful of that. But also, I don't believe any player is a problem. I feel that's mismanagement again. We don't get it right.

44:26Now, if you've got a player and you've brought a player in and he has had big problems before and this, this, and this, don't feel you're the hero who can save the day. Let it go. I completely believe in that. but if I felt I couldn't connect with a player I have to do more I have to do more and even international stage like there's one player I didn't quite connect with just didn't have that time in that period so I'd travel to London go and have a meal with him and you know just spend time with him and speak to him not even about football just got brothers, sisters you know your partner this this just get to know the person because the more you get to know that person allows you to be able to coach him if you don't know the person don't think you can coach it's not gonna it's only gonna allow you so much so know the person know what triggers like I like can you give us an example of somebody where you've gone for a meal with them found out something that you've been able to use maybe not name names but no no but you like we used to like I used to do I used to profile the players like again we're psychologists as well so we profile them and it's not always like just sign a sheet of paper tickiest you know we try and do it in person as well so you're able to speak to them and get...

45:38And then you'll find out, you know, it taught me a lot, which some players just need more. So whatever information you give is not enough. They need more. But then those players are like incredible. So your tactical stuff, you can start moving them around because they need it, they get it. Now, some players need like very limited. So how you build your structure is a little bit different with them. Let them be them. don't try and bring him too much into like i gotta ask him to play in the pocket and ask him play six or double six and eight at times you know where he can mix with it's not for him he just likes being there then and be him then but he's good at that let you be you it's not for me to change you now the ones who need more give them they run the team they start moving they start seeing things but they need that so build that but if i was imagine i was trying to do that to a player that, for instance, doesn't quite trigger that way.

46:37He only needs one or two bits because that's what he wants. But I was trying to get him to move him into here, then move him into there. Then he's looking at me. I've mismanaged that. I've done it wrong. I haven't understood him. Now, where one or two players need that, they need that flexibility because they just get stimulated. They move, they move. And you'd be surprised how many you do have at a club. You don't get a team full of them. You get two free, if you're lucky. they're the ones who start moving they're the ones who start dictating your team they start like coaching before you or having to do anything on the side so give them more give them more give them more and the other ones they know what they're doing so and I like at the same time like everything like when you're doing it you want to be you you don't want to be scripted on a like oh you've got to say this or ask this question or ask no you want to be the best version you can be but you need to be free you know and then you're going to get the best you're going to be the best at what you do my right is plays the same let them be them like in the final third I can't tell you what to do I can get you there but whether it's a step or whether it's a cry I do not know that's your own ability that's whatever you're good at and which you clearly are because you wouldn't be here be you just commit give it away not a problem we'll win it back you know and I feel that's what I would have wanted I would have liked that so that's interesting there you said just be you which for a lot of players is difficult because they're like, what be me with 50 ,000 people watching and live television cameras and qualification on the line.

48:06We don't play for them. And I don't mean that in the nicest way. You know, their emotions are supposed to be high. That roller coaster, they're supposed to be on. We ain't. We've got to be clear. So if they shall get it forward, hit it long, believe it or not, it'll work against us. No, we have to keep it. Then we move it, move it the other side. So let them be them. That's what they pay their money for. That's where they have their view. Completely respect it and need them as well at times, you know? But if it isn't going well, we've still got to be us, not them. Do you understand? They're supposed to ride the roller coaster.

48:41We can't, nor do we want to, because our game then becomes inconsistent and our flow becomes inconsistent. We can't allow that to happen. We start taking unnecessary or start moving the ball where we don't need to be moving it or people are not controlling in positions, then we become vulnerable. because we've got involved in emotions. Now, if we stay away from that, we play for us. Do you understand? You play for the person next to you. You play for him next to you, you know? Let them get on with it. That's it. That's for them. It's not for what we're trying to do. And once you move that away, players like, I found, and I don't know, and that's maybe a younger coach.

49:23I say younger coach. I'm not quite young. I'm 45. five but um maybe an inexperienced coach i see players they're fine then you know it's about us it's about what we do you know of course we look at the opposition we adapt but unable to be a adapt in different shapes because we're going to about six in a game and that's with them without the ball then we change that up again so like our library is quite extensive it needs to be but it has to be if you're clear of mind if you forget about the library because you're getting involved in oh no i'm gonna have to start running the air and do that because you hear a roar or you hear a boo or something or it affects you that way then you're not going to be able to play the way we want to play so we have to be clear on that it's like we play for who's in this room you said one other thing there again almost a throwaway comment that i imagine your wales players have heard from you, you said, we lose the ball, we win it back.

50:20So again, giving your players, I guess, some psychological safety to be able to be wrong, to make mistakes. You have to be. We can't score if we don't. You know, I've never seen a goal just perfectly moved and there, there, you very rarely get that. It's about trying to beat a man. It's about, I don't like the word risk. I try and like keep that well out of every team meeting I do. is like take responsibility. That's the key for me. Take responsibility. And what's the difference? Like risks. Like what's the risk? You know, it's like I don't see football as a risk. Like play out from the back. If you've got seven against five, you've got two extra players.

50:58We could do this all day. I could put you on a possession area this size here. The five wouldn't touch the ball and they'd be looking at me going, we're up against seven. It's not fair. Why wouldn't we do that then in a match? because what? People see that as a, like they like to use that word, it's not a risk, it's common sense, has to be common sense. Now if they go 7 feet 7, then we got more space on the back line, that's what I want, that's all I care about. Can we go there and win? Because I'm in a space, then it's a fair fight. But if we go there and win, because they got 5 against our 7, but then surely, their numbers then, okay, we go 5, 6, we include the goalkeeper, because now they go a lot higher, against what?

51:39Our 3? who's going to win it who's going to win a second ball they are so I'm just giving them possession you know but people get fearful I can't understand it I've never been able to understand it because I was that player trying to win a flick on or trying to control it and I got one player coming from there one player coming from the front and then you look at me saying hold it up how can I hold it up it didn't make honestly I was probably more frustrated as a player it was like but no you create the scenarios but if you give me a 1v1 when it's a race Then we're in. Then we've got a game on.

52:13You know, so create the scenarios. The right scenario to benefit that player, to give him the fair chance, give him the opportunity. So that's all, like, that pays. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS. I made the switch because I was tired of those ridiculous bills and sneaky charges from my old provider. With Mint, I'm paying$15 a month and getting the same high-speed data, unlimited talk and text, and the coverage on the nation's largest 5G network.

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54:27there's another lovely bit you said there about we play for the people in this room that idea of you create that team spirit that does strong bonds how do you do that teams everything it cannot be individual run it's impossible now the more say for instance the individual buys into the team the better it's going to be for the individual then you'll able to perform even better you know now um for me it's like we have to respect our roles on the pitch now if you interchange and our problem i never but you have to own that role don't think you can start disappearing now it's that no you have to respect that role respect your position now i'd always say with players for instance you might not touch the ball but i'm telling you about the best game because you've been in the right position you've occupied three-four of their players allows us to free up someone else but if you start wandering because you're not getting and think you can play for you, the whole structure breaks.

55:25Then we lose out. So then you're not playing for the team, you're thinking about you. So the team's the most important. Now, understanding that role, I might have to sacrifice my game today because I'm not getting a touch, but I'm occupying players because that's what you're going to do if you're not getting a touch. Freeze up someone else and realizing that that's the team and that player appreciates that one. When you recover, do we all recover back? Is the forward still hanging up there? Then he's not part of the team. Can't be part of the team. So then you lose and we lose out. Then you're not respecting the team.

55:54So you have to come back as well. I tell you what, I think this is a brilliant conversation and it's so nice to delve into the way you're managing Wales and the way you're talking to your players and the culture that you're trying to create. Is that there are still people that will think of, I don't know, a story from the past, like when you went at John Arna Risa with a golf club, right? I think a lot of people are going to let go. Well, exactly. That's the point. No, but I understand. But this conversation stands as a testament to the fact that you can be that person at one point in your life where you had demons and struggles and challenges and issues, but you can also be this person as well and not put people in a box like this.

56:31Yeah, I know. I think I've always been this person, but what's allowed me is to bring this person to the front. I've always been this. I'm always happiest being this person. Now, this person was always there, but how can I be consistent with it? And as we know with everything, like we talk about habits, but life is consistency. How can I be consistent? So where was this guy? On that day when you lost it and went with the guy, where was this guy then? In alcohol? There's no reasoning. There's no reasoning. Now, what might sound like a good idea, come alcohol into that, there's no good ideas. You just go wherever you feel your ego's going to take you at that time.

57:11So that's another reflection of like, well, is drinking right? Does it suit me? Does it help me? No, it doesn't. Any real incident I've ever had is being drink-related. Now, I'm lucky I don't drink that much because probably you've already seen a lot more. Now, it doesn't suit me. So, I have to be conscious of that as well. So, you were drunk when that happened, right? Yeah, of course. Of course, it's the most insane moment going. Trust me, this is not an excuse. Obviously, something was going on there to allow that to happen. No matter what I thought the situation was at the time. but that moment of actually taking a step back realizing what's good what's not wasn't even there wasn't even wasn't even part of it i was fully aware of the consequences and i wasn't even the day after um didn't have a problem with it and then a couple of months after then you start that wasn't the most cleverest moment of my career which i'm going to have to live and answer questions like this 20 odd years on um i have to own it i also have to move on from it as well yeah because a lot of the mistakes i made i beat myself up well over like beyond like what you can even ask me you know those moments haunt me even now oh of course of course but there's a period then you gotta let go you've gotta let go it's like i can't beat myself up over you know like my first partner being unfaithful constantly you know that haunted me hated it couldn't like beat myself up anymore in the end you've got to start being kind to yourself as well it's like look grow like this done it's part of your life that you can move away now you know it's like can't keep hanging over you and i think as soon as i was able to move away from that and put that to the side it doesn't mean i don't regret it doesn't mean i'm not like but that moment is done now it's like where's the future but how do you be kind to yourself that's a good it's a really good question but i'm like i think you could tell even in my interviews and how i speak and not just like i'm not talking about this one now but when you see me do an interview like even wales and everything everything's positive because that's what i'm living my life now that's all i care about i don't care about the consequences are going to be people like i do not get it and i don't mean that in an arrogant far from it i'm like completely not that way but i'm like i want to have a go i rather much prefer and i've said this before to fail but trying something great yeah than doing nothing and succeeding you know that's what that's like that's my motivation try and be something different now i'm not saying i'm going to be that there's going to be plenty better managers than me like by a long way and who I completely admire but I'm like I don't want to be like the others now maybe the change of Wales because we've been a lot of five at the back for 5-4-1 relied on an individual camped out and I don't mean use that word camped out but it got us decent success we qualified three tournaments now when he spoke to me about being a manager I'm like I don't play this way I play this way now everyone would be feeling like you can't do that with them you can't do this with them like i was lucky the director of football was like yeah great this is what we want and the players want you you know we spoke to them all as well they all want you you know and i was like let's do that yeah i was there i was there honestly i was there but i also in my mind as well when it ended with gary this is how we were playing as well so this is like oh man we're not coming we're coming to we're coming to take any like i'm not worried about what transfer market value that squad is what transfer market like and is it a fair fight at times probably not population of three million people you know we're in a city right now three times the size of our country you know population wise but that means we don't stand a chance no of course we do it's not always about pride and fight in which we like to resemble us like we have talent now how can we excel how can we make the difference do we do the same as what others are doing or do we try and be completely different but we have to be really structured and really clear with our messaging and consistent with our messaging that's going to allow us to then maybe flip something down hasn't been done or for wales sorry other nations of course have done another club teams quite a long way have done it but that excited me the most to understand it was like this is there i have the players to be able to do it this way now you'll see harry wilson people are talking about a sore but they've excelled and this no they're just being given of what they should have been doing anyway these players are top but can i use the harry wilson example because he's on record as saying that you've helped him see football completely differently and i'm interested in how do you think you've achieved that i see football completely different to what i've seen over the last number of years my brain has worked like different bits um and i probably feel like me and Vinny found that together as well.

1:02:27We started looking at different things, looking at this, looking at that, best this, best that. How can we combine everything? Can you give us an example of what you mean by that? I've been very lucky that I still work with people from an analysis background that have gone into coaching, that have taught me tools and looking at the trigger here. What's that do there? What's the habit here? Waving hands, turning back. So all these bitches start highlighting. These bitches, I tell you we're a good team. I think they're a good team. okay, we see this now, see that, see that. And then they're looking like, we got a chance here because we don't do that.

1:03:01That's an advantage straight away. So teams that are berating each other or throwing their arms up when they make some mistake. It's banned for us, we don't allow it. Because, I think I get the reason, but tell us why you don't allow that. No, I want it to waste an energy, but also it shows the opposition. It shows the opposition that you're, I wouldn't say all disciplined, maybe that's a bit harsh, but you're not in the game. You're too worried about other things. so you know we showed a moment we've seen Turkey first game and their habits we've seen waving their hands if one don't go and then and then Yomaz on the left wing waves his hands twice then the third instant gets a second yellow red card ball in the space of basically 20 seconds there's your moment that's why we don't throw hands because it leads to frustration but also it leads to frustration from someone else now if I see a centre-back coming up with a ball and he's waving his hands where's my options that just leads to the opposition the pressure even more.

1:03:55So you're giving them a trigger. It's like, as soon as my hands come out, I'm in trouble. So what do you think if you were going to go play? You're like, oh, I'm going after you. Yeah, you do. It's normal to. We don't give you that. We cannot give you that. You understand? It's like, they're like, we do not give anyone a helping hand. See, that's different because I thought like, when I go and watch football and I see somebody doing that to the teammate, the way I perceive it is that you've made a mistake and I wouldn't have done that. So you're almost saying that I think I'm better than you. Yeah, I think it's I think it's complete lack of respect to the player.

1:04:27To your own team? Yeah. We're going to be a team. We can't do that. How much time do you spend preparing for a game or to present a game plan to your players? No, quite a lot. You review quite a lot. Like even on my way here, I was watching a game back against Belgium again. So I'll be able to six, seven times. You watch a game back six or seven times? Try to, yeah. Probably might go more. what are you seeing after the seventh view that you didn't see first second or third no i like i try and break it down because i clip it all first and then write my comments towards it as well um but i just like looking at something then i see the body shape you know and that's from ours as well we side on that's our timing right center back you open because if you're closing you have to take an extra touch we can't afford an extra touch we need to be done two or one but you can't do it if you're closed so people talk about passing drills for instance why are you talking about passing drill people talk about the quality of passing but if your body's not open it doesn't matter about the pass you're never going to be able to play a forward anyway to get the body open then you won't worry about the pass so if your body shape these little bits are not right forget about all this and we talk about playing talk about if your body habits are wrong and your shoulders are not open you can't see as much of the pitch as possible forget about it because the player when pressing if we see that on the opposition we see look at the body language look at the square so then you start changing the press a little bit because I want to go on the shoulder where I can see your number a little bit.

1:05:52And if I just start just a little bit, then your touch is going to go backwards. It's done. You've done enough. But I have it. If he's open and he can see me coming, I ain't going to press. And aside from the actual game, what are the other non-negotiables that you're bringing into this Wales squad that you think are making a tangible difference? Look, I don't... They have a big togetherness, so that's definitely been left for me by previous coaches, like the bond. The one thing I'd done was open the tables up I don't like small tables we all gotta be together so we all eat together the captain tells you when you can eat when you can finish when you can leave the table he's in charge I run a a players committee so four or five of every camp go through tactics go through what we expect this week the simple messaging so it doesn't just come from us it comes from you as well as players so they get it they know it so I ask what can help you what can I do do you need anything for this or that and and they're usually brilliant because they're you know i have ben davis and that as well who were like incredible leaders uh incredible people so they give you something back do you understand they teach you as well which is so important it's not just one with like you're teaching me to be a better coach like i there was a big thing made of like the shirt swapping um and it's not because i don't respect you know i want our shirt to be the most important shirt out there like i understand if opposition asking for it no problem but we're not going to give it away you know it's like you work to add for that like you have to own that now i'm telling you if i was at any club and like whatever job i have i don't i hate the word even job like wherever i'm working it's the best place in the world has to be has to because i'm here you know this is the best you know there's no other place i'd rather be right now and i feel that right now of course now if i was say for instance norwich it's the best place in the world it's like the best place yeah you know i'm making the best place you know that's actually is though no no okay yeah it's actually a really good place you're right it's probably not the best example I know what you mean yeah but no but it always feels like the biggest place in the world you know because we're there and it was like you know even at Anderlecht with Vinnie we felt that like this is the best place in the world when we were at Burnley it's the best place what better place can work like come to do our work and can I ask you like you've always had the strongholds of Cardiff and Swansea as football hotbed what your perception is of what's happening in Wexham great great I'd like to see them have more Welsh players.

1:08:20I believe that's time. I'd like to see them with a younger team as well. But I believe that's time. You know, they've just been, you know, just promoted, promoted, promoted, and they use a lot of experience and that for that. But what they've done with, obviously, with Reynolds, and, you know, it's like, he's not just an actor. He's like Brad Pitt level, you know? Like, I would watch any film he's in. Like, if he's part of a team, I want to see that team as well. So, not just being Welsh. like wherever I was from, you know, and I can see why so many Americans have sort of fallen in love with it.

1:08:52It's been hugely beneficial for Wales, not just Welsh football, for Wales as a country. I feel like a lot of Americans now know where Wales is. It's not just a small place by London. And that's only big for us. And, you know, honestly, I'd say everything about it has been so, so positive. But I believe in the long run, hopefully, Welsh football will really be able to benefit from them as well because surely their academy is going to improve better players are going to allow better players then to come through and that's only going to benefit our country I think this conversation is so interesting because you seem so in flow so happy so content so clear in the vision of what you want for Wales and the direction you're going but I also think we have to be really careful because there will be people listening to this who might still be in the place that you were in previously with mental health challenges and anxiety and all sorts of things.

1:09:44I think we have to, we can't make them think that like you were there and now you're here and everything's perfect. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's every day. It's every single day. You know, every single day. Especially even after the camp where the crash comes. Then it takes me a good week. But do you know, the more tools you have, the more you learn about yourself. What sends you into a moment of being very quiet? how you need to be able to snap it. Not snap yourself out of it. It's not like sometimes go with it. Because you had an issue at Underlet and you left because of depression, right?

1:10:21Yeah, yeah. Are you happy to talk about that? Yeah, no, it was fine. It was during COVID period, which was a test for everyone. And I feel for people like myself, you know, definitely deal with depression. It was beyond the test. and I probably the not knowing of one minute we're okay then we have that flexibility being able to move about which I need to be able to move about so we could be in lockdown again next week or we can't do that and that was really fearful and that really would play on my mind quite a lot I think I just got burned out from it because I feel myself a lot in work because in work we could stay there so like I mean if living at the training ground because you know it's like you go like there was a curfew if you left and back home and so stay there you know then i can get up the barn you know and just and and next thing you know you've just worked beyond hours and just lost or fun really and i don't mean nothing to do with andelekt or with vinnie it was just like i was worn out i was just drained and i knew carrying on wasn't gonna i wasn't gonna be good for the players yeah and during just get snappy like that cloud was over me um what does that cloud feel like to you oh everything's rubbish everything's rubbish you know i could have the best food going in the kitchen it didn't taste nice you know just everything um and i was just like a flipping comment of like you know those type of scenarios yeah don't enjoy anything and i hate being that person i cannot be that person when i need to be able to i even the smallest bits enjoy you know like i always say and i really believe it like i am here for the tiniest period you know you think of civilization you think like people won't remember me i'm not that's not like why i'm here and you know what i mean why am i interested or why wouldn't i be interested in loving it loving every second of being so when my time does come i do not know when i go well that was top that was tough that's what you should be that's what you know and if someone gets to walk out my grave in my gravesite and like i remember that brilliant you know most moments but to me it was like you know i got to live a dream and i'm so so grateful for that i can just literally now like this period of football um of coaching and the part i mentioned earlier on where maybe i I wish I enjoyed it more.

1:13:00Yeah. I'm going to enjoy every second of this. So when you get those nerves just before the game, which is so natural too, then I'm like, but I love this. This is what I want. You know, what's the worst that can happen? I lose. Yeah. What are you doing to protect your mental health on a daily basis? I have like an incredible partner who's like the best person. We have two young kids together and they keep me, like I really enjoy this this stage of being a father I've really been present through it and I've really enjoyed that every moment every day changes with him and I look forward to that you know when I heard him in the cot in the morning I can't wait to get up you know even though my partner might say different as well at times she does yeah she's really good at that because he does get up at five in the morning but you know you see that smile you see like where maybe I would have just wouldn't have seen that as much last time because I wasn't as present.

1:14:00And I don't know, maybe, I think when my partner being so in love gives me that feeling of I don't feel I've ever had. And it gives me that moment of like, I don't think I can love a person anymore. You know, it's that like strong. And I'm so grateful for that because I was always, maybe I wouldn't get that. And I didn't want to live my life without having that. Now, whatever happens in the future, I've had that. That's nice. I know what that is, you know? And that to me is like, it's worth more than any of this. You know, that person there, she is worth more than anything going. But you sound like a guy, when we listen to your biography of, it's an incredible survival story in many ways, you know, from the anxiety as a young boy to going to Norwich and feeling that homesickness and trying to sabotage and then having to put on a mask when you arrive at Newcastle to be somebody.

1:14:54What is it that's happened that's allowed you to be so vulnerable now and therefore to be loved? No, I've just gained tools. Just like all the emotions and the feelings of, I didn't have the tools to be able to cope with it then. I wasn't aware. So a reaction's going to come. It's going to happen. Because I'm like so frustrated within myself and I don't know how to express it all. I feel this is normal. I just don't know what's going on. And if there was someone listening to this then that is searching for those tools, would you advise the one that's been most effective for you to do that? I use someone even now in Cardiff who I see quite regularly.

1:15:32I think it's important for me. Sometimes even just to talk. You know, it's not like, it's just hearing something that might be just so like unimportant, but actually getting it off your chest. Like you walk out like, that's done. You know, and it's like, you need that at times because as men it's so normal we do not talk about our feelings like and even from years past like we're getting a lot better than now but it's still a lot a lot of work to be done like i am not a normal person nor do i want to be that's the honest truth i'm unique because there's only one of me you know and i don't mean that in a lot of nothing to do would like thank god probably a lot of people would say but it is only one of me like there's only me in this world like me greg bellamy you know so why wouldn't i try and be kind to myself why wouldn't i want to live the best life i can and that's really what i try and focus on and in order to do that then i have to maintain myself as well and not just like you would do with your body fitness wise and you have to maintain your mind because then i have a leadership role now I will not be if I can't lead myself how can I lead a group then how can I lead a country it's impossible I wonder what you would say to someone who might have heard bits of this conversation and realized that maybe they're in a place you used to be but they're too scared to go to therapy they're too scared to open up they're too scared to talk I know and I would understand it because it's common say for instance when we look at if I keep trying and that's say improvement myself for, wherever it was in football-wise, if I keep working, keep working, keep working, something could change.

1:17:17It has to change. Now, I do not know when. It could be a week, it could be a month, it could be a year, it could be 10 years. But I honestly believe something will change. Now, if I don't do something, if I don't have the consistency of waking up and getting out of bed, working hard and, you know, these type of moments, how can I expect anything to change? If it does, it won't last. It's only going to be a short period. but if I constantly no matter how much life's thrown at you and now like it's supposed to be hard it's like of course it is and football even more so and I don't mean no I I'm actually wrong with that life's harder but in football you know it's it's got to be hard because it's worth having nothing's going to come to you easy it's impossible to so you have to work now it might not be going the way you want it to and that's in life as well but if you keep being consistent you keep work something will change it has to change now if you don't do anything about it like i said can't expect it to don't expect the same results expect it to be um and i think learning that and also like even perhaps no matter what's going on get up go for a run do whatever you know but get your ass out of bed it's like can't lie there all day something's going to change and when it changes it's going to be amazing it's going to be amazing I do not know when but I honestly believe something's going to happen like ridiculous and when it does like right then some quick fire questions yes yep

1:18:49the three non-negotiable behaviours that are most important to you turning your back now that could be blocked shots can't turn your back and turn your back if they're like live like they're going to take a quick goal you cannot turn your back throw it nothing think so always face the ball i was thought that as a young kid from my dad anyway so it was like that's always lived with me reactions as soon as you lose it win it back that's your first thought have to win that ball back and i would say no waving hands can't have that it breaks me it breaks me can't accept it what advice would you give to a teenage craig just starting out enjoy every second enjoy you know what you might feel is bad or you might not feel like isn't isn't you know just smile smile enjoy everything that's going to come good and bad embrace everything I don't feel like I've done that enough if you could go back to one moment in your life where would you go and why this right now honest truth this right now it's the most it's the best it's the best and I'm right in it right in it like it's been like a year now so I don't know like you ever see the film Shawshank yeah yeah when the guy is like they're asking like Indian like they always believe that when he pass that person gets to live that life back no it wasn't Shawshank you have to forgive me it's the Green Mile oh yeah the Green Mile And it's like, they always give you that moment of the happiest moment.

1:20:34And this was being on top of a rock with his partner, newly married, you know. Not saying what else they've done, but if you were, that was my moment, like, this would be it. And the final question, Craig, is what's your one golden rule to live a high-performance life? Consistency. It's everything. You know, and that's just consistency in your message, consistency in your habits. that's what allows you then you know i think if you can master consistency you can master progress listen craig we we both wish you the very best for the future i think welsh football feels like it's in exciting hands but more importantly than that it's not about football this conversation it's about life and i think you know sometimes it is difficult to ask the questions and to answer the questions when we're talking about your mental health challenges from your past and you know depression and mistakes and stuff but to have a current international football manager sit here and talk like this it's the kind of conversation you won't get it you won't get you don't get them yeah i think that's what's grabbed a little bit what i've been doing um i try and be open yeah i try and be open and if you want to talk football let's talk football and i try and do that in my interviews as well um i'm not like other people and i don't mean to say i'm negative towards anyone else far from it.

1:21:54I try and be me.

1:21:59Damien. Jake. Look, I thought I was talking to a Stoic for a lot of that conversation. I think the most important thing that has come out of that is that I think sometimes when people are struggling with their mental health or their anxiety or they're in a bad place, as we both know, they feel that it is permanent, right? But this is a great reminder that you can be in the darkest and toughest and trickiest of places but there is a way out and Craig the answer he gave at the end there that if he could go back to any moment in his life where would he go and he would choose now like that's almost the most powerful and perfect way to finish that conversation yeah I thought it was incredible and a good reminder to all of us about labels the danger of them you know sometimes you can develop a reputation and you could see it's frustration in many ways that we had to ask him about some of those instances when he was labelled as a troublemaker or a difficult character whereas the label he's wearing now is, like you say, someone that's stoical, somebody that's reflective, somebody that's learned to love himself.

1:23:00And I think sometimes it does us all good to be reminded that labelling people diminishes them in many ways. I'd also be really excited if I was a Welsh football fan hearing that conversation because the way he talks about his players, the way he talks about his nation, the way he talks about his behaviours and the culture he's trying to create. You know, Wales will never be the biggest football nation on the planet. So they've got to find another way to get an edge over the opposition. And it feels like he is looking for that edge. Well, one of my big frustrations when you watch football is, you know, when you see players waving their hands at each other or berating each other and things like that.

1:23:38And I just think it's a sign of a weak team because they sort of signal into the opposition as well as to each other that you've made a mistake and I wouldn't have made it or, you know, or highlighting it. and to hear somebody there making like just removing that as a factor removing fear removing this idea that we're underdogs no no we deserve to go in and fight on an equal level I'd love that if I was a Welsh fan 100 % and I tell you Gary Speed will be looking down smiling and very proud of what his buddy has managed to achieve that was lovely that bit wasn't it I found that really moving the way he spoke about Gary and his legacy you're right what you say you know about like it almost felt difficult going into some of the like when before the conversation i thought oh he'll we'll easily be able to talk about the tough things from the past because it's framed where he is now but actually you realize that he's in such a good place now that a lot of that previous stuff almost doesn't make sense do you know what i mean so that's why he doesn't want to talk about it and it was at times it was difficult almost to crowbar in the conversations about like what went on at liverpool or newcastle and i kind of felt before we did the interview that it needed those moments in it but actually when the conversation was happening i felt it doesn't actually need those moments like where he is now is so much more interesting well if somebody says to you listen back then i was i was suffering from huge anxiety i was having to put on a mask i was having to drink to cope with that social anxiety that i was suffering from why would you then want to then go and explore somebody at their most vulnerable or the weakest when you go i've made a mistake, but I was stupid.

1:25:12I can't give you a justification of it. So it might make a great sort of after dinner anecdote, but it actually doesn't help anybody move forward. And I think listening to Craig explain that he didn't try to absolve himself of responsibility for the person he was then, but he's also taken responsibility to be a better person today. I really enjoyed it. Thanks, mate. Thank you. of course huge thanks from the whole team to craig for his honesty and his strength in sharing that story it goes so far beyond football if it resonated with you please hit follow on apple or spotify and maybe share this conversation with someone who needs to hear it you can also get early access to every episode and exclusive bonus content on the high performance app and if you want more powerful stories from the world of football or sport check out our really cool chats with the likes of Dan Byrne from Newcastle, MMA fighter Tom Aspinall, F1 driver Carlos Sainz, or Nottingham Forest captain Ryan Yates.

1:26:12Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next time.

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