Damon Hill: Carrying His Father's Legacy Through F1’s Most Ruthless Era (E352)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance App. that you admire, and that includes behaviour. Running people clean off the track just to stop someone from passing it is not racing. That is the voice of Damon Hill, the 1996 Formula One world champion who emerged from tragedy and self-doubt to carve his own path in Formula One. In this chat, Damon opens up on the immense challenges he faced along his journey and how he finally sought therapy to deal with them. You might know Damon the racing driver, but there's so much more that you don't know. For example, how his dad's untimely death devastated the family and shaped Damon's determination to prove himself in a sport that he never actually wanted to be in.

1:09He offers some personal reflections on Senna's death, stepping into the number one driver's seat at Williams and the truth behind his intense rivalry with Michael Schumacher, including the controversial 1994 crash that stole the world title from him. And can I just say, before we get going, on a personal level, I was so pleased to have this conversation because in all the time that I've known Damon Hill and it's a long time, I've never known him to open up in this way. And we spoke about a lot of the topics that you can see in a remarkable new film about his life called Hill. It comes to Sky and streaming service now in July.

1:44It really tells the story of his life set against the backdrop of the fastest sport in the world, following Damon as he defies the odds to overcome tragedy, to step out of his father's shadow and become the racing legend that he now is. We talk about all that and so much more on today's episode of High Performance as we welcome Formula One world champion, Damon Hill.

2:10Well, Damon, welcome to High Performance. Well, thanks for having me. Yeah. Let me take you back to a moment that I'm sure you've relived in your mind and in many other ways over the years. Japan, 1996. Oh, I thought you could say 94. But anyway, 96, 96. Okay. We're going to do 96. You crossed the finish line. Yeah. You become the world champion. What's the first thing you think about? Well, I had some time to think about it because it happened on about lap 20, I think, when Jacques Villeneuve was out of the race and he was the only title rival. So I'm now in the car going round and round and round, knowing I'm world champion, whatever happens.

2:47So I actually came on the radio to the team and said, they came on and said, congratulations, you're world champion. And I said, so can I come in now? We prefer it if you keep going. So I actually did. I'm glad I did because I won that race as well. And I had plenty of time to think of what to say before I got out of the car. But you can't express yourself. There's no way of putting it into words. The first thing people say is Murray comes up to you and goes, Murray Walker, and goes, how's it feel? You don't know. You're still in race mode. You're still in the car, in the cockpit. But I can tell you, it's a huge relief.

3:27That's the first emotion, is really just relief. Because I hadn't slept. You know, I just want to get the job done. It's been weeks waiting to find out. And you just go, oh, I've done it. I can do something else now if I want to. And you said you had plenty of time to think. How prominent was your father in your thoughts on that lap? I think there was an element of that, I think. But then there had been, throughout my career, I kind of wanted to acknowledge his input that he'd had. So he died when I was 15, but his name was huge in the sport and in the world of sport and also in the world of British society with a famous person.

4:12So I was very proud of my dad and I never got to find out whether he would have been approving of me becoming a racing driver. I think he did say when I was younger that he was asked by an interviewer, would you like your son to be a racing driver? And he said, well, I think he's too intelligent to become a racing driver. But he was clearly wrong. But in those days, it was very dangerous. So he didn't really want his son. I can understand if he didn't want me to be a racing driver. but um so but yeah definitely very proud a little moment of reflection on on that the meaning of that you know that sad that he wasn't there to see it happen my mum was around but I think we all felt very much that he was present in some way so for people that don't know the background to this and what happened with your dad are you happy to to share the story of that fateful night when you lost your dad?

5:17Yeah. It still has a kind of powerful effect on me. I mean, it's not something that was my most enjoyable experience, but the way it happened was I was watching television. So I would have been 14, and I was watching television with my younger sister, Samantha. And my mother was in the kitchen having dinner with two of our neighbors and expecting... her husband home later that evening. And they'd been testing in the south of France. They'd been testing their new car with a new driver. My dad had a plane and he was the pilot and they'd fired five other people who were the key personnel in the team, including the new young driver, Tony Bryce.

6:03And they were directed to come back by Heathrow control a certain way. And anyway, I was in the TV room, watching TV, and they go, we have a newsflash. A plane has reportedly gone down an Arkley golf course. And I'm thinking, well, that's just up the road. And I knew my dad was flying back. Small plane, blah. So penny drops. And I'm not sure, but it doesn't sound good. And so I went from that, I said, I didn't alarm my sister, and I just crept out of the room and went. And before I got to the kitchen where my mum was, the phone had gone. And a journalist had obviously got through. And so I could hear my mum on the other side, what do you mean?

6:56Who are you? Why are you asking these questions? And I thought, oh my God, something in it. It's my worst fear. So she puts the phone down and I come in white as a sheet and say to my mum, I'd just seen a newsflash. And then from that moment on, it was pandemonium. And our world was literally, you know, shattered like a vase, you know, in all directions. It was a very traumatic experience. My mum became very hysterical and it was just a nightmare. When did you get the confirmation that it was your dad's plane? Well, more phone calls, I guess, started to come through. And before we knew it, the bloody police were in that front door and my mum was being restrained and, you know, it was horrendous.

7:52And then more people arrived and before we knew it, the house is full of friends, people who want to support, but it was just pandemonium because he was famous, you know. So, and TV, news, doctors, God knows what. And what did you do? I was, I was, I just was, I think I remember just sitting in the, in the living room full of people just being cuddled by whoever they was, you know, and Samantha. And then they had to find my other sister, Bridget, who had been to a party. so she gets in a party, she gets a knock on the door with a policeman at the door. So it was a pretty nasty shock for everyone, especially as he'd just retired from having been a racing driver that summer.

8:50So at the British Grand Prix, he'd announced his retirement from racing after 17 years in Formula One, and we thought was home and dry. So it was only like four months later, July, August, September, October, November, you know, five months later. And it was all over, including the race team, including all the people on the plane. So no future, you know, it really was a catastrophe.

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11:05I think that's the other thing that it's important to explain to people so they can really understand the gravity of not just losing your father, not just losing your father who's a well-known figure, not just losing your father who was a hero, not just to you, but to millions of other people because of his career. but you also lost everything that your father stood for because of the circumstances surrounding the plane crash meant that his entire estate really was... Yeah, I mean material things, not what he stood for as a person, that was clearly well established but of course there was accusations that it was his fault as well.

11:43So in my book, years later I got given a book. you remember a guy called Conrad Bartelski who's still Britain's highest place downhill skier Val Gardini in 1982 I think anyway but his dad was a pilot in the a Polish pilot in the Second World War and he was an experienced pilot and he'd written a book about unexplained accidents so this guy Conrad said you know my dad's written a book about plane crashes and he's written a chapter on your dad's one so I went through it all and in his view my dad was uh justified in attempting to land at elstree so elstree was we lived in boron wood which is just you know you can see the planes used to i used my school was at the end of the runway of elstree airdrome so i used to see my dad's plane coming in when i was in classes and sometimes if it was near the end of the day i'd nip around so he can get a lift home with him we used to go everywhere in that plane we went on holidays so i'd flown around with him but I was asked to go and do the investigation so the civil aviation authority have to do an investigation and so I was one of the witnesses having flown a lot with my dad you know and they'd ask me questions about how he flew and so forth but in this book Conrad's dad asked the question why was Heathrow why did Heathrow ask him to direct himself towards Elstree before he was lined up with the runway and it was a foggy night and so forth.

13:16Anyway, the question is, it didn't matter. At the time, I remember seeing a headline because the next day the papers arrive and then in the kitchen you go down, it's this crazy thing where you need to see it in print, don't you, you know? And then when you see it in print, it's not. Some of the headlines were, you know, he pushed his luck one too many times, you know, and stuff like that. So you now, not only you're grieving, but you're also realizing that some people are trying to find a way of blaming as well. And so it was a pretty traumatic period in our life. And it meant that the race team was lost, but also your house was lost, your income source was lost.

13:57Well, yeah, clearly the guy who was, he was quite extended on this race team. And then the dollar and the pound went weird and there was a question over his qualifications. and he had got a thing called an instrument rating, which meant you can fly in cloud and so forth at night. But I think it had laps and it just hadn't been renewed by his lawyer, I think. So that meant that the estate was exposed to the claims. Plus the team had to fold because it hadn't. So drivers who might have been driving were out of pocket. And so there was a bit of a financial hole and my mum couldn't cope. I was too young, but it taught me a lesson anyway.

14:45So, you know, when you're that young, you suddenly realise, wait a minute, someone's died and all that anybody really cares about is whether they're going to get paid, you know? And you kind of go, this is not the fairy tale that you kind of imagine where people are sympathetic. And so that was the kind of experience that sticks with you. And how did you balance the private grief for your dad with the sort of public narrative of having to share this grief? Well, you didn't want to share the grief. I didn't want to share the grief. I mean, I didn't want anybody else. You know, the funeral was a very public affair.

15:22What it did for me, I think, is it made me very bitter, probably the wrong word, but I think very circumspect about society. I regarded it with suspicion and I didn't feel comfortable about anything that was trying to invite you in to join up with society at all I just felt like there's something sinister here I don't like and I would avoid it as much as I could Well that term sinister is quite loaded isn't it? It is sinister it's lame because I was right it was I think that it's fair to say that as you grow up and you become less naive you realize there is such a thing as a sinister um side to our societies human societies we are dangerous creatures you know and we are vindictive and we are all good things but also So there is the ruthless side to humanity.

16:29So did you get any help or support in being able to go through grief? No. So I do remember certain people and certain individuals who did things at the time. And it stuck with me for a long time. Like, for instance, there was a chaplain who was out of school and he made the effort to come see me. And he came into my bedroom, which I'm not suggesting anything was wrong. he was there for me you know um but i had that that was my private space you know that was everything else was the house is full of other people but he was there to see how i was and i remember that distinctly um being a very important uh offering let's say so that that if you're talking about human nature and the good side to human nature and and having a glimmer of of hope or faith in human nature, then that was an important example.

17:22And of course, my own school friends and people who are close to me. But you know, you close in, you kind of, you don't trust, you lose trust in other people. But years later, I made the effort to go and talk to someone after I stopped racing, and I wanted to get some answers about what I'd actually done with my life, why did I do, why did I put myself through this trial? And also, what do you do when you don't have that anymore in your life? And so I was a bit lost when I stopped racing. And, but that had been happening whilst I was racing as well. So, and so we're talking about therapy. And when I went and saw the guy, he said, it will take about three years.

18:14Anyway, I went 15 years. Right. I just kept going because I just found it so interesting. And so I used to go nearly every week and see someone and talk about life and me and the world, my relationship with it. And it was very important. And unfortunately, the guy I used to see died after 15 years, which is interestingly and sadly also the same amount of years I'd had with my dad. so don't come near me for too long because you know but what was said in those sessions that helped you? I think things to do with the way the world is and so if you're I understand the purpose of this is to is to discuss things that people have experienced and have gone through that can be of use to people watching so I think that there is a disconnect between what we are led to believe and what is real and what is deep down how people are by necessity.

19:23So that is part of therapy. So therapy is basically finding out who you are and chucking away the bits you don't want and also not carrying baggage and being effective in being able to navigate life. And so being able to identify what is a good path and what is not a good path as well. What would you say to people watching this who are fearful of going to therapy? Well, my first question is, why are you fearful of going to therapy? It's a question in itself. I think people understandably want to conceal themselves from somebody else. It takes an awful huge amount of trust to sit in a room with someone else and reveal yourself entirely to that person.

20:16And that's understandable. But if you don't ever find someone you can talk to and trust, if you don't take that leap of faith, then you will never be able to have these conversations and if you're stuck and you're going around in circles and you can't get out of that i mean i i literally concluded i give up i got to the point where i was going okay i i've read every book i've listened to every poet i've read everything i i can't i can't there's some things i just can't work out i need someone else to help me. And it's a personal thing. So it's not about them telling you what happens. It's about them facilitating you discovering for yourself what is true.

21:07And it's like knocking down little walls. And eventually, you know, you're getting more space to live in. And sometimes you're on the other side of the wall and you're kind of outside rather than being locked in. Do you wish that you'd done this earlier in your life? Because there's a very moving moment in the new film about your life where your wife Georgie says, I was at a party and I met Damon and he was the saddest and most lost person I'd ever seen in my life. Yeah, I thought I was okay. What did you feel when you heard her say that? Yeah, that's an interesting part of this film because, I mean, Georgie has known me since I was 20.

21:51one. We've been very close and we're still learning about each other. And so she still says things that surprise me and amuse me and interest me. Did you feel lost? I didn't. I think I did feel, I felt like I was outside whatever was going on. And then Then you could say that might have been a product of having a famous dad. So, for example, I can remember going to school when we were kind of dropped off at the primary school and left with all these children I'd never met before. And then we were the children of the famous racing driver. And so you kind of go, okay, well. And the interaction from either the teachers or not so much the other pupils was curiosity because your dad's doing something famous.

22:47So you're kind of, from that moment onwards, I think I was quite standoffish, you know, because I didn't like people coming into, you know, you're after me because of my dad sort of thing. You know, so that resistance maybe was brought on early on by that realization that there is some sort of fascination with something my dad was doing. and then you're kind of like a, you can't melt into the background. You can't be like everybody else because everyone knows who you are. So you can't, you don't have, you lose that freedom to be you because it's recorded. It's not recorded in the sense that film is recorded.

23:29It is, you know, at that school, you will always be the son of. So I think that might've had a negative effect. You want, you know, you want it to be, that to be ignored you wanted to just have a normal but David you then chose to become a Formula 1 racing driver well eventually yeah where you couldn't be more compared against your dad because that was what he did yeah so maybe the most fascinating thing here for me is that the one thing you wanted to do was avoid the comparison with your dad or to avoid being Graham Hill Mark 2 yet chose to to follow the route into Formula 1 when as you've gone on record as saying it kind of was an unnatural fit for you you never even wanted to you could interpret that as being finally so fed up with being expected to do it that I thought, I'll do it.

24:15Okay, I'll do it. Let's see what happens. Do you think maybe that was it? No, I don't think so. I think it was more me wanting, I wanted to succeed in something. And the bike racing was good. I was starting to win, but it didn't have the career path that say F1 did. And I just started to think, right, this is what I like doing. I like racing and I like going fast. And so there was an attraction to that, the racing, that fulfilled me. And in some ways, I finally overcame the hurdle of that problem, whereby I would be denying myself because I wanted to frustrate the people who expected me to do it.

24:58I mean, talk about complicated, but you understand what I'm saying. How did you overcome that hurdle? I think I just got on a car. And like you said, the school thing, when I went there, I sort of, when someone said he was quite good, I was quite surprised, you know. And I just thought, oh, okay, how good? You know, let's find out. And that was the next challenge, I think. I was often pursuing this car racing plan. If your dad hadn't been lost in tragic circumstances when you were just a teenager, do you think you would have been in the car that day racing in Formula One? All I can say is I had competitive drive, a bit like he did, and also my mum because she rode for England.

25:46So both my parents were quite competitive. But I think I resisted when I was growing up the obvious, which was, you know, are you going to be a racing driver like your dad? Which is what people would meet. They go, oh, hello, Damon. Are you going to be a racing driver like your dad? And I must have taken a dislike to these people because I decided from a very early age I wasn't going to satisfy them. But, you know, life takes you in different directions. And the thing I loved was motorcycle racing. So it was a kind of motorsport, but it was just my motorsport. It wasn't my dad's. It was my individual choice.

26:26so in some ways I did manage to express my own particular you know favoritism or appreciation or whatever it's called of the kind of sport I wanted to do but then I got an opportunity to have a go in car racing my mum had spoken to someone or they'd spoken to her saying because I was I used to ride a bike to school when I was younger and then I worked as a dispatch rider and then I race bikes on the weekend and I think someone must have said to my mum he's going to kill himself you need to get him off those bikes so and one of the solutions was to have a go in a racing school in France called the Winfield Elf School which was the the proving ground the opportunity for all French racing drivers but it was an English school but clearly the links to the Renault companies and the French companies meant that Alain Prost, Jack Lafitte, Patrick També, all the great names of French racing had gone through the school and they had been sponsored.

27:33So it was a way of proving your spurs and getting a leg up. So a bit like the Red Bull team now, if you get selected as a Red Bull driver, they'll support you. So that was a great opportunity. Anyway, I went to the school not thinking I was interested at all. I went with a bunch of young lads and they were talking about Jonathan Palmer. And I'm going, who? I had no idea who Jonathan Palmer was. Sorry, Jonathan. But, you know, I didn't know anything about motor racing. They're all reading autosport. And I'm like, I don't know what was going on. I just, there's a car, I'll have a go. Anyway, evidently I did quite well.

28:13And so that kind of lit a little thing in my head, which I suddenly thought, if I could do well at this. how well do these Formula One drivers get on? And then I started to look at car racing a bit more seriously. But it was really a, I just avoided doing the obvious, it seemed to me. That's what I was trying to. So what age were you when you went to this place in France? I would have been late, 24, 23? No, 23, something like that, I think. Which is late to start. Very late. I mean, the first time I'd raced a car was 23, 22. And I'd never done karting, which is what all the Johnny Herberts and the people have been doing.

28:58You have to do really nowadays to get the foundation. So I didn't have that foundation. What was it about racing that appealed to you? As I said, the sheer love of controlling a vehicle, going fast around the racetrack and also comparing yourself. So you get a very easy answer with motor racing or any competitive endeavor. You get a result. So in most things in life, it's very difficult to know who's won or who's won. So in the entertainment business, you get BAFTAs and you kind of, you know, oh, there's the winner, right? We found out we need to know how to measure ourselves as well in society.

29:41I think there is a kind of want to know. So it's very simple. There's a simple kind of process. You think of the race, you enter the race, you go to the race, you prepare for the race, and you do the best you can in the race. And at the end, you've got the result. Well, how did that go? Goal-orientated kind of motivation is quite easy to calculate. Your story is actually remarkable in that you were in your late 20s. Nobody gets into Formula One in their late 20s unless they've been racing karts and cars and Formula 2. I was 30. I was 32. Is that how old you are for your debut? Yeah. First race, 32.

30:20I mean, that's like most people are retiring and winding up their racing career. How old was my dad when he first did his first race? 32. No way. Yeah. So we're late developers, the hills. That's very strange. Yeah, it's weird. I mean, you have to factor in that there was a huge interruption in my development, let's say, with my dad dying and then going off and doing bike racing. So I didn't follow a normal path. But once I got that direction, so if you take it from the time I first did my car race, first car race in 93, so it was nine years to get to a Formula One, which is, I suppose, okay. But nine years is a long time, not in Formula One.

31:03It's not my best years, probably. So just very briefly for the audience to know, you raced bikes, you did okay, you eventually stopped, ran out of money, you were a new dad, you were newly married, you were in your 20s, you needed a job. You'd done a little bit of single-seater driving and you'd shown you're okay. And then an opportunity came up at Williams as a test driver. But let's just be really clear. Test drivers don't become racing drivers, right? A team has their drivers. And then something quite remarkable happens, right, before the start of the season, doesn't it? So that's right. If you're a test driver, you're basically a washed up, no-hoper for the future person.

31:40In those days, it was a good job if your career had kind of not peaked in those days. But then, because they were developing the active car in those days, which was a highly technical car that was going to be used the following year, and I was the Williams test driver, and all expectation was that Nigel Manson would be racing it with Alan Pross. when he found out Alan Prost was going to be the driver late in the day he said to Frank I'm not going to be racing next year you've got Alan Prost but you haven't and everyone else has signed up so the only person who knew enough about this car was little old me who'd been driving it all year developing it and everyone else had pretty much signed up I think Riccardo Petrezzi tried to come back he'd signed for Benetton and there was a bit of competition to get in that seat I think Martin Brundle was the other person who might have been in contention.

32:37So did you have to still do a test to get the race in? Yeah, I had to. Oh, I was testing anyway, but then they tried to appraise me to see if I would cope with pressure, I suppose. And so I was given a kind of very important test to Estoril that, you know, Frank would be coming down and he'd be speaking to Alain. And so that's in the film. There's some great little bits there. Isn't there a moment where, for this test that is, let's be honest, now that we can join the dots going backwards, this was a test that defined your future as a racing driver. Yeah. Was it on the anniversary of your dad's death?

33:09Yeah. Well, the flight out was. So the deal was I was at a friend's house. Sunday, I'm in Fulham to get to Heathrow, piece of cake. I've got loads of time anyway. To catch this flight, to go to Portugal, to test the next day, to find out whether I'm going to get a drive in Formula 1 in the best car alongside Alan Prost. So I thought I'd left enough time. Anyway, Chelsea had been playing at home or something like that. Anyway, I get into Chelsea and there's people everywhere. I can't move. My flight is about to go. I'm literally now in a car raging because I'm going to miss the flight. Imagine.

33:46Sorry, Frank, I missed the flight. No, my God, no. And I somehow got, and I literally was racing towards Heathrow sorry but I racing to I finally got out of the traffic but if anyone was coming out of a Chelsea match and saw a bloke in a car in Fulham banging the steering wheel in the car rocking and hearing him screaming that was me but I managed to get and I was literally going to leave it on the ramp I was going to go I'm jumping out of this car leaving the car I don't care if they blow it up or whatever I'm gashing that plane I got on the plane I sat on the plane I sweat pouring off and stress levels and in those days we had filofaxes didn't have them.

34:25So I looked at my file of facts and it said 29th of November, which is the date of my dad dying. And I just thought, now I'm on a plane, you know, on the same day. Oh God. And I just thought, you know, sod it, you know, nothing else can happen really. And so I got to Estrell, a bit of a late night and drove the next day and they went off and made the decision. And that was, You know, but then there are loads of, those loads of occasions like that in your career, but where things could have gone a different way. Yeah. You know, those are the ones where the door opened and you went through. The rest of the time, you're just pushing on the door and hoping it opened.

35:12And what was the test to see if you could cult with pressure? I think it was that. I think it wasn't designed like that, but I think that was, it was Frank and Patrick Head who ran the teams at Williams, you know, seeing whether if given someone an opportunity of a lifetime, whether they could actually just do the job without screwing up, you know. But, I mean, there's a huge difference between testing and going to racing in Formula One. And so I did fall over myself a little bit in the first race because I spun off on the first lap. but gradually redeemed myself during the year and won three races and measured up okay to our lane.

35:57So would you explain to the layman, in this case B, what is the difference then between testing and racing? Nobody cares about testing. Racing is the thing that counts. It's the thing that everyone watches. It's the moment where every driver is going up a notch. You don't know what's happening in testing. A lot of drivers keep their powder dry. There's no point in really showing what you've got. until it comes to the last few minutes of qualifying and in the race. So how do you prepare differently then? It's just focus. I think it's mental preparation. So rehearsing ahead of time what you're going to be doing, what you're there to do, what needs to be done, and having a kind of sequence of events in your head.

36:39You go, I need to get this done, then I can do that. So you've got a map you can follow for the weekend. And if anything tries to derail that, you have to kind of go, okay well how much am I prepared to you know five minutes over here is okay for do an interview or something but then I need to get back to that so time management in your head and and really focusing and dispensing with the the trivia dispensing with the distractions that the things are totally irrelevant to your performance and so that's why you see you know you see the change in the personality when they go to a race meeting when drivers and I think the drivers today are just amazing how they can cope with the amount of attention and distractions they have in the media mostly, you know, the things they have to do and then get stuck into the job itself.

37:30It wasn't as bad when I was racing, that's for sure. I remember watching that first race at Brands. I was 15 at the time and I liked a lot of the nation. I was excited, like, Graham Hill's boy is going to be a Formula One driver. And I remember not just seeing you spin off and have a couple of moments, but I remember the first thing that they do as they do that on the television is a cut to Frank Williams and Patrick Hayes. Yeah, that's right. Not looking very happy. Yeah. How was it in that first year with a boss like Frank who, regardless of whether you're a rookie driver or not, takes no prisoners?

38:03Well, I mean, you're very conscious that these guys have got your career in their hands, you know, and they can quite easily just screw it up and go, off you go. But they gave me, in that first race, actually Frank did give me a little bit of a soft landing and a kind of feeling he expected. I think he was prepared for a few blips, but by the end of the season, he was rooting for me because I was the English driver and he had a French driver with a Renault engine. I think he secretly would like to have had a British driver doing well. And you shared a team with Alan Prost in your first season in F1.

38:41Yeah. What did you learn from observing the professor behind the wheel? Well, he doesn't give anything away. Is that right? No, he's perfectly charming. Even for a rookie like you, where he could give you a real leg up. Oh my God, no, no. I would tell this story, it's great. So you talk about setting the car up, and you're going around, and you go, what's the car doing? And I go, hey, turn three, my car does this. You know, it does kind of a little jing. And what about yours? And he says, mine does the same. That's it. In other words, that's your problem, kid. Never tells you anything. No. So he wouldn't show set up.

39:18And we talk about it a little bit. But he, a poker player, cards right up against his chest. You're not going to see his cards. And, you know, you respect that. He's a competitor. What did you learn, though, from watching him at work? Well, it's interesting. I mean, I've been with Nigel Mansell, Alan Prost, and Ed Senna a little bit, and other drivers as well. They're all different. And they're all different persons, people, different personalities, different, they go about their work differently. You can't say this is the ingredient. The only thing you can say is that they're single-minded and you're working with a team, but you're also protecting your own career within that team.

39:59So it's an awkward situation. If you imagine being in the team, which we may well have this year with McLaren, you're in the same team with the guy who's your rival for the championship. so you're actually not able to get the whole team, if you like, directed towards you, as you might find with, say, Michael Schumacher's team or Max's team where they're going to be all focused on one driver. You're aware that information that you impart is also potentially benefiting your rival. So it gets quite complicated. Was it made clear to you in that first season that you're very much the number two driver or not?

40:41Yeah, I think it was, yeah. With Alain, yeah, it was definitely his. He won three world championships and you haven't won a race yet. And you're lucky to be there. So good luck. We'll help you do as well as you can because it helps us in the Constructors' Championship. But we don't expect you to... Maybe secretly they would like me to have beaten Alain, but Alain was definitely there to win for the whole project, which was French world champion with a Renault engine, blah, blah, blah. and did you have a moment where you where you mentally transitioned from feeling lucky to be there to actually feeling you deserve to i think that's i think that was a that was a difficult transition so yeah because they didn't pick me out of a bunch of drivers and go this guy's really talented i had to prove that i had the ability and i constantly i mean i think i was marginal you know in in providing confidence to them i mean i always felt strongly that i could do it but i also felt like um that i still needed a bit to prove and i was one of those drivers so constantly striving to prove that that i've got credentials and of course if you do that you'll never give them the benefit of that doubt you know you have to be utterly the confidence so this is what we were talking about before about naivety i think if i'd known then what i know now then i think i would have approached it slightly differently and I did and I eventually did but not till after I had some rough experiences I'd say so what did you do differently eventually well I think I um I took some advice as well so um I organized myself in my head a little bit better and went to approach things differently in my job during 96.

42:31So I very much was not, I got rid of the distractions and the worries about what other people were doing that you can't do anything about. That's a big thing is worrying about things you have no control over. So only focus on what you have some control over. And what I had control over was how I performed. So 93 ended up being a good season for you. you picked up some wins proved a few people wrong kept the seat for 94 when did you find out that Ayrton said that Ayrton was going to be your teammate that season? Oh god well Ayrton was he was definitely retiring anyway he announced he was going so probably around a month at a time I suppose but that's usually when it happened but I can't remember exactly when they said Ayrton's going to be the teammate I mean I was on a I was always on a yearly contract anyway so I never I didn't even know if I was going to be there so I can't remember when I signed up for the following year or when I got signed up by Frank but no I can't remember Do you remember how you felt though because you'd had a little run in with that hadn't you in the 93 season Oh yes 93 I got I got told off by him for the way I drove Tell us the story It was coming from him I thought was a bit rich but he sent he sent his manager around to get me after a race and And Mr.

43:54Ettenham, Mr. Senna would like to see you. So, okay. And he said, we were the same age virtually. And he sat there and said, you're a young driver. I said, well, I'm about the same age. And, yep, I'm young in terms of years of racing. I understand that. And he said, you know, you should be very careful about how you do things. Sometimes it can go wrong. I know your career, mate. honestly, really? You're telling me? And he was trying to put me in my place, I think, trying to get me to respect him. And what had you done then on the track? I think I'd tried to block him. You'd had the audacity to race him.

44:37Yeah, the audacity to actually race and stop him overtaking me. But of course, he'd done us all up a kipper at Donington Avenue in that famous race that he went around the outside of me. Anyway, that's another story. Can't get that back. But he was a great of the sport, but also another complicated individual. So as a rival... I wasn't going to take any racing tips from him. As a rival, he was a complicated individual trying to leave a mark on you, I guess, to see whether that would impact you on the track. What was he like as a teammate? If Alan Prost was very private, what was Ayrton like? I didn't have long enough to be with him.

45:17I mean, there was moments that I had with Ayrton we all watched Ayrton everyone in F1 was watching what he did because he was so mesmerizing really but as a person he was a kind person you could tell he was a kind person really he had a very big heart and he was very determined to do the right thing and to do good for the world if he could so he was an impressive personality, impressive character and meant a lot to Brazil. Obviously he was, you know, at one, at his funeral, I remember someone saying to me, he said, he was the best thing about Brazil. You know, they, they had enough troubles, but he gave, he, he gave an entire nation a reason to hope.

46:09And so they're very passionate people, the Brazilians, but I mean, he, he, he really was huge to them. And he, he understood that. He understood that he had a responsibility to a whole country. So he wasn't just racing for himself. And so you were aware of that when you were with him. He was discreet. I think he was fairly diplomatic and discreet about what he thought and very, very serious, not in any way frivolous at all. Really? Would he offer you advice and help and put his arm around you about racing or not really? No, but there's a poignant part of the film where he had a conversation with Georgie at Imola and talking about how, about me, you know, he said Georgie was worried about, and he said, don't worry, Dan will be fine.

47:09He's a nice guy, blah, blah. And, you know, and Williams are a good team and so forth. So he didn't have to say that. He was, you know, he was, but I didn't get enough time to be with him. I mean, you know, if you want to know it, Ayrton better, you have to speak to Gerhard or someone who's been with him for a long time or anyone at McLaren who knew him that well. And he said those things about you just hours before his final race, right? Yeah. And how did you feel when Georgie told you that? Well, I didn't know that until a long time afterwards. But, well, everything's sad about Imola. You know, what can you say?

47:45There's nothing that is not just heavy with grief and pain for that weekend. And irony and tragedy and the whole lot.

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50:07But what took my breath away was understanding that after it died, the race continued. Well, it stopped while they dealt with airtime. Sure. And then they restarted the race, yeah. But I'm interested in what was going on in your mind. my mind was I hope they find out what it was you know and if it's you know but I'll do what I'm asked to do you know I was asked to drive the car and I didn't I didn't back out of it I didn't say oh wait a minute you know I had the option I could have said well hey what's what's going on here why did he go off and so forth you don't do that as a racing driver you're in you're in race mode and you just default to race restarts in 10 minutes or whatever and you go, okay, crack on, you know.

51:02When did you know that the accident was more serious than just another accident? I knew on the grid, but I didn't know that. Anne Bradshaw, who was the WIMS PR woman, she said Ayrton's gone off. And I said, well, how is he? And she said, well, it's not good. It's quite serious. well that has a whole range of possible interpretations to me so i didn't know he died until like until the end of the race and then i was told and i i was in the medical um center because i i had to drive without the power steering because they they weren't sure what had gone wrong so they they turned off the power steering so like trying to turn this car that's designed to use stick.

51:46So I'm dehydrated and everything. And I'm in the medical center. And Dickie Stanford came and said that Ayrton had died. And that's the first time I heard of it. So, yeah. I mean, you know, if you're talking about... We'd already lost Roland the day before, don't forget. It's just like the whole weekend was a complete and utter horror story. Yeah. You know? and people not knowing what to do, how to respond. And it was just, it was shocking. And what about your own personal fear? Because if they're coming to you saying, we're going to turn off the power steering, that naturally leads a driver to think, well, is there an issue with the car here?

52:30What's going on? Then they're asking you to go out. On that, I write in my book, I've gone into that in great depth and I have made it very clear, abundantly clear that I went also through all the technical data that we had after that, after Ayrton's accident and so forth. My opinion is that it's a combination of factors and it was not a mechanical failure. But I cannot convince anybody of that because once they've got it in their mind, then they stick with it. So from my point of view, getting back to what you asked, I trusted the team. What else can I do? I can't keep going to the team and going, oh, are you sure you've done that?

53:05Have you done that? Or have you tightened that bolt? You can't go racing like that. You trust the team completely. And you also accept that people are fallible. Sometimes things will go wrong. You crash their car sometimes, you know, because you made a mistake. So you're in a team and you go, you're doing your best and I trust you're doing your best and we'll go racing like that. But I'm interested in that word. It's a small word, trust, that we've spoke about it in two different contexts here. We spoke about the lack of trust that you had in other people after your dad's accident. and now you've seen an accident that affects somebody else and you're now having to apply trust to others.

53:47Would you tell us what trust means and how did you develop that? Well, I suppose in that context, your team is your family in that sense. You know, you work hard together and you build up a relationship and they know who you are and you know what they're like and your bond is quite strong in those situations. Clearly, you know, you have moments where people are annoyed with each other, but it's like a family. You know, you come back together. You have plenty of good reason to trust people because you know them better. And it's the people you don't know that are difficult to trust. The most remarkable thing is you then still had a world championship to fight for in 1994.

54:29What did you do to put that weekend to bed and mentally move forwards for the rest of 94 when you came so close to winning the world title? I think I concluded that up until they died both Roland and Ayrton loved racing they loved doing it and that's why they were there and that if you didn't understand the risks before then you were you shouldn't really be doing it you know so there was no starker example of the risks happening I mean don't forget Ayrton got in the car after Roland had his fatal accident. He decided, I am going to race. And so what, what can, if we all walked away, then we would be not true to ourselves.

55:18You know, you, it's very difficult. I mean, I think Ayrton got in the car because that's who he was. He knew that that was Ayrton Senna. Um, and he was a racer and he, and he gave him a racing car. He's going to go and try and win a race without that. He wouldn't, we would never have heard of him. You know, he wouldn't have been at the center and this is part part of being true to yourself really i think you know so the idea or the idea was okay we are going racing so once you get over that we're not going to stop i mean gerhard also spoke about not knowing whether he was going to carry on and everyone knew what we did know was that things had to change because something was wrong either with the cars the design of the cars the regulations they'd come from active suspension and suddenly they've gone to passive suspension and there were clearly things they hadn't understood.

56:02And Max Mosley was very hot on making changes rapidly just to show that they could represent themselves as being responsible sporting body, the FIA. And so he said, right, we are making this safe as possible. And him and Charlie Whiting and Sid Watkins went to work and together with the teams, they made the car safer and that's why we have the halo. You know, ultimately, we have the hands device, the halo, and Roman Grosjean can drive 150 miles an hour through a steel barrier, burst into flames and get out. I'm scathed, you know. And that wouldn't have happened without the changes that took place after Rimler.

56:49One of the tragedies of F1 is it takes the death of drivers to change safety. And in that season, the fuses got smaller, they changed the front wings, as they increased the protection for drivers' heads either side of the cockpit. But you still had to get back in the car. Did you and Georgie ever have a conversation about do we carry on or not? Yeah, clearly. You know, I mean, we had two children. I had Oliver and Josh. So we had a family. And Georgie was never, never put any pressure on me to stop. It wasn't the first time it had happened, unfortunately. We'd lost Birch and Farby as well at my first F3 year, I was at Goodwood and he was killed in testing there.

57:33And so it was like a repeat conversation. It's not a question of, oh, well, the rewards are so great, then it's worth the risk. It's actually, if you don't do that, then where does it stop? If you don't accept challenges, where do you stop? You know, you just don't, you don't go out your front door. You know, where does it stop? Most people wander around. I don't want to offend most people, but I mean, let's be honest. We take it for granted. We're going to go out the front door and we're going to come home later on that day. We don't know. So every time you do anything, you're accepting that there's risk.

58:09There's chance. There's a hazard. We have to keep going on. We don't have any choice. We can't back away every time from every challenge. But as being the father now of two young boys, you can also see the world from their perspective. from their perspective and having experienced such tragedy yourself how did you reconcile well it was a difficult one I mean I know I had to I had to justify it somehow to myself and it was again getting coming back to well this is a defining of me and I want to be fulfilled in my life because I think that will be hopefully that will be an example to them in whatever they do I mean as my dad was to me you know so my dad was someone who did not shy from life's challenges he wanted you know he overcame and he embraced them and that's that made him someone who we could admire the same as Adam and a lot of other people.

59:15And you embraced the challenge you went back into the car you started picking up some great race wins and quite a remarkable thing actually happened to you in Japan that year didn't it? Well yeah I mean this is this is in the film I mean I wrote about it in my book as well and I and it's to do with the kind of sense of an experience where I felt I wasn't driving the car. It was being driven by something that wasn't me. And I was under pressure to perform because Mike was catching me and it was on aggregate time. So I couldn't see him wheel to wheel, but I knew he was catching me. And so I had one last lap and I had the rate he was catching me would have meant he would have passed me unless I pulled out some phenomenal lap, which I got to the point where I thought to myself, okay, I'm done.

1:00:04I can't, I can't find out, I can't think how to go fast on this. And I sort of said to myself, well, Ayrton, if you're up there, sort of semi-seriously, if you're up there, I could do with a hand. And something happened which was extraordinary, which was I suddenly found myself like a passenger in a car being driven by a maniac. That's the only way I could describe it. And I literally felt detached from what I was doing. And it was like suddenly I'd been released from all the constraints of being worried about getting it wrong, I suppose. When you're racing, you're always kind of slightly one next step.

1:00:42This was like, okay, we're taking away all the safety harnesses. We are literally metaphorical safety harnesses. You're now acting without a net, okay? High wire act without a net. And it was just like the car just went for half a lap without me driving it is what it felt like. I mean it can be explained neuroscientists will be able to say okay well this is what happens in a situation where you're very stressful is that your conscious brain retreats from the functions of the limbic system and then you're just you're acting more instinctively and that's the only thing I can put it down to but it definitely happened you've had numerous races where you've been under pressure have you ever had that similar No, but it was self-induced pressure as well.

1:01:31It was because I wanted so badly to stop Michael. And that left you with an opportunity to stop Michael. And that led to, in Adelaide, at the end of 1994, remains one of the most famous moments in Formula One history. Yeah, infamous. Have you come to terms with it? Well, every time I see it, I look at it and I go, oh, don't go for the gap. I just, I can't. You know, I thought exactly, I watched it again knowing we were chatting and I thought, wait till you go around the corner. I didn't see his car. His car's wrecked. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. So I'm behind him. I didn't see him hit the wall.

1:02:12All I see is coming back on the track and I was thinking he's got grass on his tires. That's why he's squirming around. I thought I've got to get him now, otherwise he'll be back up to speed again. So that was why I went for the gap. But then what I didn't account for was that he would not see me.

1:02:31you make a great politician there's then that moment where you're sitting in the pits they're trying to mend the broken suspension rod and you're shaking your head yeah did you think at that point well at least they're going to look at this and ascertain that he cheated to get the result so I'll be okay anyway did you think of that he's trying to fix the match he's trying to bend the suspension back into place and I can see it's not going to work and my actual thoughts were if you think I'm driving around Adelaide at 200 miles an hour with a thing you bent back into place you've got another thing coming but I mean the question is how they could have because there was quite a big gap between me and the rest I could have got a point which would have been enough and they still ask the question did they have time probably not to change the suspension but yes after the race Barry Sheen said to me who was down there for the race who'd been buddying up with me the whole time.

1:03:27And he was a motorcycle racer, so I was really excited to be with Barry. But he was saying, he just said to me, look, everyone saw what happened. Don't say nothing. So I went, okay, good advice. And I was expecting that there would be outrage. I kind of partly thought, well, when people look at it, there'll be outrage and then the stewards will have a... But there was a reluctance because of it, because of Imola, because of the... Because of the, you know, there was a reluctance to have a kind of fight over it at the end in that way. I think people like Williams, they didn't want, they just went, let's just move on.

1:04:04You know, we put up a good fight. It didn't go our way. And I think in those days, you wouldn't get a stewards inquiry in the way we do now, where it would be reported and then they'd look at it. Did you not want to fight at that point, though? no because I was done to I literally thought I've done I've done everything I can I can't you know I don't want to be haggling over a win it's like you know the umpire says you're out then you don't want to be standing there going no I'm not I wasn't it was you know it's all wrong you don't want to be you don't want to be doing that did you ever go to Michael and say I did the next day I didn't say he was having breakfast and I went up to him I said well done world champion and he sort of looked at me rather sheepishly and said thanks but I never spoke to him about it after that but I mean we had our moments the following year in 95 it was a disaster I basically got overexcited a few times and we had more contretemps but he yeah I didn't really come out too well looking in 95 You've mentioned a few times Damon like from that Brands Hatch the first time you span off to even that moment in Adelaide where you were clear of how you wanted to be seen.

1:05:28You wanted to be seen as you. Well, I wouldn't put it. It wasn't so much what I wanted to be seen as. I myself didn't want to be that sort of person, you know. And that's what I want to explore. So how did you want to be perceived? What were your values that you wanted to show the world? I mean my dad was you know whenever we wanted to complain about something he would stop us immediately you know that it was you don't want to be a whingy you don't want to be someone who's you know saying life's not fair if we would say oh dad that's not fair life's not fair stop now okay you're going to get the the rub of the green as they call it in golf you know you're going to get good bounces bad bounces sometimes people will make the wrong decision And I think I do feel that this is sort of connected with, obviously what happened in Abu Dhabi in 21 is a huge, in many people's eyes, an injustice.

1:06:29But of course, it is also a sport in which the decision makers, the rule makers and the people, the judges, also make mistakes as well. And you've got to accept that that is going to be part of the bag. you know you don't want it to be like that and of course if it's atrocious if it's corrupt then that's got to be stopped but if it's just you know how do you undo something once it's been established that something's been wrong you know you have how far do you go back you've got Philippi Massas trying to get his victory back well if that happens then who what happens the next you know you can't go back in history and change it because it has are not going to affect into the future, into the now.

1:07:16And you'll have just an avalanche of people putting in lawsuits. In some ways, sport is about accepting the ref's decision as well as, you know, when we got VAR. I think you were a real stoic though. There's one clip that comes to my mind when I think about you being a stoic and it's when Michael wasn't happy with a race result. You came walking up the stairs, think at Silverstone. He banged the front of your cap. Remember that? Yeah. And you didn't react. You didn't turn back at him. You didn't rise up at him. It was embarrassing, wasn't it? I mean, he was sort of, he was trying to buddy up with me.

1:07:54It's now that I'm the winner or whatever. I don't know. I mean, it was an interesting clip in that film. I thought it was absolutely fascinating. I thought it was those little moments really kind of, you know, because I'd endured a lot of his comments, you know, that were not so flattering about me. And I thought, okay, why would I? Anyway, the games people play when they're competing. What did you think of the games that Michael played? I think he was what he was. He was a competitor. He was someone who was able to put pressure on every little part of your life. There's some good bits of film in the film about Michael.

1:08:38But of course, I will say this, if it wasn't for Michael, I would never have found out to what height I could go as a racing driver. Explain that. I could never, well, I'd had, like I said, I had to extend myself beyond what I was capable of, and I won. And there's a picture of him congratulating me after Suzuka. He didn't do that very often, and I think he knew that I'd put up a good performance. So that's also magnanimous of him. you know so the rivalry made made gave me an opportunity he's a seven-time world champion he'd never won a world championship till then I was getting so much grief for being beaten by him but I won against him in races fair and square and eventually I won a world title admittedly he was in an uncompetitive car at the time but I fought against some of the greatest named I've you know I can measure up against Alan Prost or Ayrton didn't give me a chance unfortunately that was I never I was not as quick as him but I'd love to have known how much closer I could have got and race against Michael and Nigel and I didn't do too bad you know I think you did very well indeed I mean the hardest period would have been 95 yeah was it the fact that that devastation at the end of 94 feeling that you were kind of robbed of a world title lingering on or was there other stuff going on oh no I think 95 was a real crisis year for me I had to resolve.

1:10:06I had to work out what was going on. I was very confused by what was happening. And then, as I was talking about before, I got some good advice and that helped me sort my head out. But that wasn't until the end of the year. And so that, sorting my head out and understanding things better and being less naive meant that I was better prepared for 96, which I fairly sailed through, frankly. You know, it wasn't that stressful. Had Michael's mind games in 95 kind of won, if you know what I mean. Yeah. Completely. Yeah, I fell for it. You know, I got suckered in. Do you remember when Checo came out and said he was going to fight Michael for the world championship and stuff?

1:10:47You know, don't announce this. I think I went into 95 thinking, right, this is going to be fun. I'm going to be, you know, fighting Michael. And I didn't understand the sophistication that you needed to have to fight for a world title from the beginning. I was never expecting to fight for the world title in 94, but 95 I kind of was expecting to be a contender. And so I think I just overreached myself a few times. And for those that aren't aware of their F1 history, you know, we're going back 30 years now. Would you share with people some of the things that Michael did that did have that effect on you?

1:11:29He'd do stuff like in the press conference, I'd won a race or I'd be in pole position or I can't remember what it was and they'd come to me and when they're doing that he'd start up a conversation with Jack or someone like that. He's chatting away while you're talking so you'd kind of go I wasn't talking when you were being interviewed. So anyway little things like that would start to irritate you you know and stuff. So he was quite adept at dismissing you to the press. And I, like a fool, rose to the bait. And were you talking to each other in 95 or not, really? I mean, it's odd because in driver briefings, he and I would have conversations or discuss things and sort of work together on stuff as well.

1:12:20But he was very aloof, you know. He was able to cut himself off. So you couldn't get any connection at all, human connection with him, which I think that's my particular weakness is that if someone's not showing me some sort of humanity, I kind of get irritated by that a bit. And you said you sorted your head out at the end of that season. Would you describe a bit more detail of what that means? Well, I'd been beaten. I felt beaten and I wanted to understand why I was beaten and why I was beaten mentally. and so what is it what is it I'm not doing I'm not understanding so I got some woman who was actually you might remember this I don't know there was a bit on the it was BBC then wasn't it but it was someone someone who had been drawn in to talk about the difference between Damon and Michael and she was talking about body language and stuff like that and I thought I've got to speak to this woman how do I do the body language thing okay and so I got her out to Ireland to have a chat with me and I was going oh you know it's been awful because I got this problem that problem and she just went save it for the book in other words nobody's interested in your bleating and your problems and this is a task and we now need to identify what you need to do to achieve the task and cut out all the extraneous distractions the things that are going to make you and that helped oh yeah it was incredible and then 96 rolls around, the greatest season of your life.

1:13:56And again, there's more craziness going on because while you're fighting for a world title, you don't come to agreement with Williams for 97 onwards when they bring... So every year in my racing career, until I got to Eddie Jordan, I only ever had a one-year contract. So every year was like, oh, I've got to renegotiate, I haven't got a job for next year. And it turns out that my opportunity, because they'd signed Jack Villeneuve. So that's one seat gone. And it turns out they'd signed up another driver, Heinz-Helm Frensen, without letting me know. And we're trying to get, when I started winning, and when they were trying to, they were trying to find a way, they say, of dispensing with one of the drivers so I could stay on, but they couldn't get rid of them.

1:14:42They wouldn't move. That's partly the story. But anyway, the story came out that I'd lost my drive by Hockenheim. So Hockenheim was in August, something like that. It was middle of the season. It wasn't that late in the season. July, maybe. So quite early to find out that even if I win the championship, I'm not going to keep my job. So I didn't believe it. And then it turns out it was true. And so I had to announce, it was announced, I'm still fighting for the world championship. And then it was announced at Monza that I wouldn't be staying with the team. Frank called me. What did he say? he said oh German I sorry to say we can't keep you on for next year got to do what's right for the team hope he understands that sort of thing and you said what did you say and I said I understand completely Frank you know what can he do and what did you say to your wife maybe what I would have done now is oh no you don't I might have said that but again there's the stoic yeah you know I'm more fatty accepting your fate oh I might as well have said hit me why don't you hit me with a cricket bat I mean, I should have probably put up a more...

1:15:49You must have felt furious, though. Hey, it's like we're saying about what you have control over and what you don't have control over. There's stuff you... That's... What can I do to fix that? You know, I don't understand what I had. My mind immediately switched on to, right, I am leaving this team with a world championship. I'm taking it with me, you know? You might not keep me for next year, but you're not going to keep the world champion either. so what was the difference then once you made that kind of commitment what difference did you notice in terms of your performance I think it was business as usual just get back to the job that you need to do unfortunately for me I crashed out of Monza by hitting the tyres and put more pressure on myself so I took it down to the wire but the good thing is the viewing figures went up and so I phoned Bernie I said you owe me I've taken this down to the wire They got it.

1:16:47They were thinking it was going to be done in Portugal and they got Mick Jagger down there and Jerry and it was a big kind of press junket. And they were literally around the front of my car and I had to kind of keep them off, stepping on my front wing. I'm on the front row at Estoril and there's Mick and Jerry having the picture taken and Bernie's had them down and they really thought that was where it's going to be decided, but it didn't happen for whatever reason. I had a thrust bearing failure or something like that thrust washer clutch I think gearbox and so it went on for three weeks there was a three week gap in which time I had to find a drive for the following year and then win the race or beat Jack in Japan but it went down to the wire threading until about lap 15 or 16 when his wheel fell off and what a story though as we sit here and talk about it I just I think like The brilliant thing about you was that you were very different to everyone else in that world and you were true to yourself.

1:17:50So you had the kind of, you had the mind games of Michael Schumacher going on. You had the sort of the coldness, if you like, of Frank Williams, you know, the inability to connect on a human level to your biggest rival, Michael, as well. Yet you were kind of, you were a real human being among all of this. And I think that's a real testament to you. I think possibly, Jake, because I spent a long time getting this. So I'd had a lot of growing up out of that world, you know, on my own where I could be myself and stuff. So I sort of knew who I was a little bit. And I wasn't, you know, what is it like?

1:18:24I'm interested to know how these drivers today have a life. I mean, they have always been a Formula One driver. They even, you know, from the age of 10 or whatever, they're signed up. So they've always been in that world. And it's kind of like you want to go, you need to get some perspective on this because this is not, this is a reality but only in this bubble. Sorry, touch your mic. I think I was lucky in that way, you know, in some ways that I kind of had this one foot on, you know, on terra firma and I wanted it on terra firma as well. So that journey of discovery you went on with the therapist once you finished racing, what did you learn on that journey that you would pass on or advise you to dispense to some of these young riders?

1:19:10Yes. I'd say do it as soon as you can. We need to know ourselves better. We're in such perilous times now. I think that we need to be motivated more by more developed faculties than simply a desire for proving a point. The unproven statistic of the most successful, that most of the top people in business are psychopaths. Have you heard that one? I'm not sure whether that's been proven correct yet, but I mean, we don't want psychopaths running our world. People who haven't got any empathy. Elon Musk famously has announced that empathy is the biggest problem. Well, that's a worry for me. you know see the strange thing is in your world that you lived in I obviously spent a few years in Formula 1 and found that the least empathetic drivers were often the fastest if you're doing something let's say you're a fighter pilot and you've got to go you have to go and shoot someone out the sky you can't go oh I don't want to do that because sometimes there's an imperative there is there's something which is and we make an imperative out of you know motor racing and so forth so you do need to be ruthless to compete but you don't need to be a total bastard.

1:20:34You don't need to be vindictive. You don't need to take delight in other people's suffering as well. That would not be something that I would admire in a sports person. But in your career, you know, you said when Aiton Centre pulled you in and tried to give you some racing tips, you were like, hold on, I've seen the way you race. I'm not sure I should listen. Yeah, I didn't think that. You had Michael Schumacher who tried to sort of break you psychologically throughout your career. You know, you've spoken about Max Verstappen these days as being a bit like dick dastardly. But there is a recurring theme sometimes with the best of the best of the best that they have.

1:21:07Yeah. They have this thing. Yeah. Well, I think it's a question of winning at all costs. You know, what is the cost of winning? And Jackie wrote his title of his book, Jackie Stewart's book, was Winning is Not Enough. In other words, it's not all about winning. It is, to a degree, how you go about it. I think that's what we're after with sports. Sports is a theatre. and it's a theater where we there's no script there's a kind of general rule but the principles are you want to see things that you admire and that includes behavior yeah not just victory what do you think of Max Verstappen's approach to racing?

1:21:46I'm not going to I'm not going to ask that joke I've been I've been totally you know have you? I listen it's one of the interesting things about our world I'm having an opinion They're soundbites, and they were applied for an aspect of some of the things he does when he's on track. That's a more rounded question. That's the nice thing. We can be nuanced here, right? So my take on it was that if you're racing someone and you want to stop them from passing you, you just simply cannon your car up the inside, even if the regs haven't been written clearly enough to say that you can do that. I don't think that that is racing.

1:22:28That's simply taking a massive risk. Other people don't do it. If other people don't do it, then you're the outlier. And okay, running people clean off the track just to stop someone from passing it is not racing. It's not racing. It's simply dodgems or whatever you want to call it. Banger racing. It's not Formula One. We want to see skill. We want to see skill and daring. and we want it to be surgically done, not bludgeoned. You know, you don't take a mallet to something. We want to see it done with a rapier, you know? You want to see it cleanly done and effectively done and beautifully done.

1:23:08Yeah. And Max can do that as well, right? Yeah. And has done that as well. Yeah. It's just that you picking up on that one point. No, well, it's occasionally they are at moments in situations, let's say in championships. So the build-up to 21 was quite obvious. And my beef is a little bit more with, again, going back to, you can't have a free-for-all. You have to have someone saying, okay, we want to see racing, but we don't want it going beyond certain bounds. You know, you have rules in every sport. You have to. You know, so you want it to, those rules should be there to encourage great performances and not allow one individual to run roughshod over the sport.

1:24:01Yeah. Where does Max sit for you in the list of great drivers? Right up there. No question. Number one? Possibly. I mean, in terms of his effectiveness, in terms of his preparedness, his maturity, his speed, he's a phenomenon. And there are very few phenomena drivers. They are the ones that we know of, you know. The Fangios, the Jim Clarks, the Senna's and the Michael Schumacher's. and we've had the debate for years Ronaldo v Messi where do you lie on Max v Lewis? Lewis is a different kind of driver so this is what I'm saying Lewis is he's more of a rapier than a battle axe in competition yeah would you put one above the other?

1:24:57they're different I think Lewis's natural ability I don't think even he knows the depths of it he just somehow is been gifted an extraordinary talent for driving and also a passion for for racing as well he still wants to race them it's more character differences than anything else i would say where does your greatest rival sit on that list michael at least what can we say now i mean he's up lewis in terms of i mean statistics are a problem because because statistics there are more races now there are more season, etc. All these things. So championships, longevity, you can't really, you need to modulate it for, adjust it for inflation, you know.

1:25:45Yeah. So where would he be? Where would Lewis? I think they're level. Yeah. I think they're level. And Michael above or below? No, I think Michael, I think Michael, Max still has it to do in terms of having said what I said about statistics, I think Max still has to deliver, whereas Michael's delivered his maybe Lewis has delivered his maybe there was an eighth title which didn't happen which should have done but maybe he should have lost when Felipe Massa I don't know or some other have you seen the stat that Lewis is four race results away from being an 11 time world champion yeah yeah I saw that I mean that shows you the fine margins well I think he should have won in his first season as well I still think that's an interesting season when Kimi beat him what happened to his car and I don't know I don't want to go down the paranoid route but I mean you know there were Lewis was in contention from the word the moment he arrived as is Max much more aggressive driver competitor racer Max than Lewis I think on track I mean Lewis has done some things occasionally but it's very it's not common Time for some quick fire questions to wrap things up

1:27:03What are the three non-negotiable behaviours that you and the people around you have to buy into? No, no bullshit. You know, let's not bullshit. I mean, let's not... Yeah, directness and saying what you really mean is better than trying not to say the thing that you need to say. Personal hygiene. Very important. I'm not sure anyone's ever said that before. which is worrying sense of humour there you go yeah very good how about being able to laugh at oneself in an appropriate way not being the butt end of jokes I don't mean that I mean being able to spot your own foibles and fluffs are you happy yeah I'm content I mean that's I'm mostly happy but I'm I'm content sometimes I'm absolutely furious and angry and that's usually because I can't play golf and stuff like that or find things If you could give one piece of advice to a 15-year-old Damon, what would it be?

1:28:09I would say there is infinite possibilities, and you have infinite possibilities. You have infinite potential. Don't believe anything's impossible. Don't be told you have to do this or you have to do that. Find out for yourself. If you could go back to one moment in your life, where would you go and why? Adelaide 94 no that's not true where would I go back to I'm happy where I am I don't want to go back I've been there I've done that back is it's happened it's gone what I want to do next after this interview is more interesting if you did go back to Adelaide 94 what would you do

1:28:55if I would clearly I would have had I would have had x-ray specs and I would have seen through the wall and seen... No, but you now know what you know. And I would see a suspension. So you would just sit behind him for that right-hander, right? Let him... I would literally... If I... It's a good question. If I had known what to do, like I know now, I would have just followed him until he had to park and I would have gone.

1:29:22And the final question, what's your one golden rule to live in a high-performance life? You can't get time back. you have to ask yourself what can I do now? What can I be doing now to make things better for tomorrow? Because you don't have those for tomorrow. So I hate saying things like that because I don't know what's going to happen. But I mean, time is the thing. And when you're young it just pours through your fingers. And it's fine to take time out but I think as you get older you don't want to waste it. You can't buy time.

1:30:01Damien, Jake, what did you think of that conversation? It was deep. Some of his reflections on the life he's led from the trauma being a young boy and losing his father and the very public grief that he had to sort of navigate his way through and then going into the public eye, the amount of parallels about going out to Portugal on the anniversary of his dad's death, the fact of entering the sport of the Formula One drive at the same age his dad did, losing his therapist after 15 years like he lost his dad. This is a man that's obviously reflected a lot on the patterns of life and the fact that he was willing to share that with us was incredible.

1:30:42What did you think? Because he's more your world that you're familiar with. Mate, I've known Damon Hill for the best part of 20 years and I've never had a conversation like that with him and I've never heard him have a conversation like that. I wouldn't have known that he thinks so deeply and that therapy has played such an important part in his life. I wouldn't have known that in the time he was trying to be a Formula One driver to, in so many ways, emulate his father, he was sitting in that car, never really ever wanting to be in that car, right? And then suddenly found himself winning the world title whilst having to deal with all the demons from the death of his dad.

1:31:15And that when he was doing really well and finally edging towards winning a world title, he was kind of getting, you know, mentally unwound by Michael Schumacher. And then when he finally did win a world title, he'd already been dumped by the team that he was going to win a world title driving the car for. It's like nothing ever came easy for him. I think now hearing that conversation, Philly never really had freedom in his whole life, right? And there was a point, if people watch the film about his life, where he says there was a point where I decided I wanted, I wish I was on the plane with my dad and I'd been killed.

1:31:48and I think that we now have a guy sitting in front of us who has managed to reach a point where he probably would now choose not to be on that plane he's a dad of four loving kids got an amazing wife he did win a world title and he has now gone on this amazing journey of discovery and I'm glad that he took the opportunity to do that and I'm glad that he he plucked up the courage to have therapy at the end of his career it's just a kind of shame that he didn't do it like he said what's his advice for people have the therapy at the beginning not at the end great advice for all of us I'd echo that and he quoted Jackie Stewart's book about winning isn't everything and for me Damon's a good example of somebody that really clear about what his values are you win in a certain way you show the sportsmanship you act with dignity you don't point the finger of blame he's a guy that role models that better than many other sportsmen we've been looking to meet I enjoyed it thank you mate I did cheers Thanks to Damon for his time.

1:32:49If you enjoyed that, please check out episodes with other F1 stars, including, and it's quite a list, Lando Norris, Fernando Alonso, Alex Albon, Oli Berman, along with team principals Toto Wolff, Christian Horner, James Vowles, and of course, legendary F1 designer, Adrian Newey. You can also check out the incredible and brilliant documentary about Damon's life out now on Sky, simply called Hill. To get the latest podcasts before anyone else from High Performance, download our app from the app store and you can get early access hit the follow button and thanks for listening

1:33:45Thank you.

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