Dan Burn: From Silent Suffering to Rewriting Newcastle’s Story (E357)

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance app. Available now, Roman Kemp, the broadcaster, opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health. I was struggling. I just could not concentrate. And like just in my head all the time. And it's like such a horrible feeling. But you don't understand why your brain's doing that. Like this is going the wrong way. Like having like suicidal thoughts, like really struggling. Do you know what I mean? And then thinking like I need to speak to someone and know why I'm feeling like this. Having me daughter changed my life completely. your perspective changes you realise is that like I'm here for you and you don't let like a bad day become a bad week become a bad month That is the voice of Newcastle and England defender Dan Byrne who joins us this week here on High Performance and what a story he has to tell Look Dan is about to go deep on the pain of being released by Newcastle United aged just 11 but then scoring a goal in the League Cup final a couple of decades later that ended the club's 70 year wait for silverware What a story, Damien.

1:01What a story. But this isn't just somebody whose comeback was bigger than the setback, but it's about somebody that's had to overcome severe anxiety and real crippling self-doubt at times. Dan speaks really candidly about the intrusive thoughts that occupied his mind while he was at Fulham, how he struggled with social media, and how he's finally managed to stop caring what people think. And I really loved him taking us deep inside the culture that Eddie Howe's created at Newcastle. I'm sure you know I'm a big fan of Eddie's, but I love the specifics, the leadership structure that holds that dressing room together.

1:34The training ground work that Dan, and I know many other Newcastle players believe, has been transformational at that football club. And we talk about it here, and I've not heard any other show, any other podcast go as deep into Newcastle as this. Expect a raw and honest look at what it actually takes to play at the highest level, both mentally and emotionally. I think this is a classic episode, actually, that takes the lived experiences of one of the planet's high performers and it turns them into your life lessons. As we welcome a man from a football club who's had a truly incredible season.

2:05England and Newcastle United player Dan Byrne on High Performance.

2:14Well look, welcome to the show. Thank you. What do you think the Dan Byrne sitting in front of us right now would say to the 11-year-old Dan Byrne who's just been released by Newcastle? yeah I don't think he'd think he'd be sat here but yeah I think I've just always had that mentality of like never giving up and wanting to prove people wrong like I've always sort of really had a chip on my shoulder and sort of used that as fuel Do you think that that release at 11 did something for you then in a positive sense? Yeah it didn't feel like at the time though What did it feel like? Horrific like my world was ending I think like you're so naive when you're that age like I was never obviously signed to the academy so it wasn't like I was training all the time it was more it was like called a development centre so it was sort of players that kept now and you train once a week would play a game every so often but obviously when I was in that I was like I'll play for Newcastle, I'll be captain I'll do all that because you're a kid and that's just what you think and then when you get released it's just more like the embarrassment of having to like go to school and people know and have that sort of knocked us like really badly and I think it's just more your parents probably just had that.

3:22It was like, you can go two ways about it. You can either like sit and sulk about it and sort of feel sorry for yourself or you can go, no, like, I'm going to prove you wrong. Like, I can do this. And I think that's just sort of what's always driven us around. The Car Journey Home, Dan, is often spoke about with people that work with young people that play sport at a weekend of that either makes or breaks your passion for a sport in terms of how your parents respond. What were the kind of messages then that your mum and dad were giving you at 11? Yeah, never, ever pushed us, ever. It was sort of like, I only really wanted to play football because my mates played it and I wanted to spend more time with them.

4:00And I saw like how much my dad loved Newcastle. And like, I think you just want to have that like bond with them. So you just want to like, oh, he loves it. So like, I'll do it because then he'll love what I'm doing. And it more just came from that. I never really pushed us, but they were always like, go to school if something had happened. And I used to be like, oh, I know, but they're doing that. And they're like, yeah, but I don't care what they're doing. like they're not my children like these are the standards that we have in this family and like this is what we want from you and I think that's like just sort of like more foundation from me to like what I do now and when you were told by Newcastle you know we're not going to keep you on was it a disappointment for not living that dream at the time you thought of being the Newcastle captain or was there a big element as well of what your parents thought and maybe letting them down after all of the love that they'd shown and the effort yeah both I think but I think it is more that it's like you don't want to feel like you're letting people down and I think you see how excited people get when you have that little bit of it and then turn around and you don't have that anymore it's like the first half of my career I like lived in fear for that as in you didn't want to fail or you didn't want to like give people like that like I totally he wasn't going to do it like and that sort of thing and I think that was where the second half of my record totally changed where like I was just more comfortable in myself and didn't really care what people thought.

5:19And I think that's probably what drove us the first from maybe 11 to 24, 25. It was pure fear that sort of drove us to do what I did. Man, that could be quite a painful way to live, I think. Yeah, definitely. I think you just buy so much pressure on yourself and sort of, there's no switch off from it. But because obviously I was having a little bit of success with it as well, you just feel like that's your main driver to getting you where you want to be. But do you feel it inhibited you, that fear? Yeah, I think so. Because you end up comparing yourself to what other people are doing as well. So it was always like, I know, but that centre-half can hit these unbelievable Diag passes or he's better on the ball than me or he's quicker than me.

5:59And you're always comparing yourself to someone else and wanting to be like them. Whereas the reality is that you can't. There's a reason that I'm playing from my strengths and you've got to try and just control what you can control and not worry about what other people are doing. I wonder whether you thought that it would actually ever happen. I mean, how old were you when you were still sort of pushing trolleys around Asda? 16. Right. 16, 17. And a lot's been made of the fact you were doing that. You know, that's a pretty regular job, right, for a 16-year-old living where you live. But you were also a 16-year-old with a dream.

6:29At that point, did you still believe that you'd become a professional footballer at some point? No, I still believed that I'd play football at some level. So, like, I could play Northern League or I'd be playing for Bly Spartans or something. Do you know what I mean? I think it was more, I just wanted to play football because I loved it that much, but I got to the point where I was playing for a junior team on a Sunday. I played for a team on a Saturday called New Hartley Juniors, and I would travel and I would not get a kick the whole time. I wanted to go out and go to the cinema we made, so I'd go into town, and the parents were like, okay, but if you want to do that, you're going to need to get a job and earn some money so you can go and do that.

7:03I left school and everyone signed the YTs or whatever at the professional clubs, and I went to sixth form. Started doing like a sports diploma and sort of worked on a Saturday. That's another moment though where you're seeing some people go in a direction that you dreamed of and you're not. Yeah. Then when I actually got to playing football, I think like I felt I had a mental edge over people because I was like, I've seen what it's like to not be here and to do it. Like for Darling, for instance, I would go and watch the first team play on a Tuesday as ball boy, like drive back to Blythe, which is like an hour and a half.

7:37And then I'd have to like wash my kit go to sleep get up put it on the radiators go back to sleep then get up in the morning put it in and when I went to Fulham everything was laid out for you it was like you'd get two meals a day there I was having a packed lunch when I was at Darling so I always felt as if these just take this for granted whereas I know that when it comes down to it I'll go further than you I'll do more than you because I've seen what it's like to not be here And what was the edge then? What was it that you felt was your advantage? Just mentality I think and just like a resilience to it I always felt like even now like when we're playing I feel like yeah you might get the better of us once but like I'll come back and like eventually you'll give up before I give up do you know what I mean so like it's even when I was coming through people like go past us all the time and stuff but I felt as if it's alright it's fine like eventually like you'll stop before me and I've always felt as if I've had that mentality like even now like I've so many centre-halves have been brought in my position over the clubs I've been at or players in my position and I'm still here So I always feel as if, yeah, it's fine, you can bring in who you want, but I'm still going to be here.

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10:26what was it that made you keep going like was it the fear of letting people down as you've described or was it just the passion yeah actually just loving the sport yeah just like loving football i think like internally just wanting to prove people wrong like i still get a little bit of a kick out of being doubted anyway and then proving people wrong and then seeing the reaction of people when i do that so what's stronger for you then the love of playing football or the idea of proving people wrong? As I'm getting older, I think the idea of proving people wrong. I think at first, it was about the love of football, but when I was a kid, you've got lads who were playing in academies who were training four and five times a week, but I was doing that as well, but not the pressure of training in the academies.

11:06So I'd play like futsal when we met on a Wednesday and then on a Friday night, I'd play five a side with one of the lads' dads because I wanted to play. And then on Saturday, we'd play five a side at a local place. So I was training sort of four or five nights a week. I'd come home from school and then I lived on a backfield so I'd have goals that would pick up and take out. So I was doing pretty much what they were doing without having that level of coaching. Now I see lads in the academy where it's like there's so much pressure on the kids to be footballers and I didn't have that. So I was learning my trade without really learning I was doing it.

11:38And do you still compare yourself to other people because you play in a Newcastle team with some incredibly gifted, technical, talented footballers. You line up in Premier League matches against centre-halves who want to beat you to an England starting spot, for example, do you still watch and think, why am I not them? Or have you got over that? Yeah, no, I'm over it now. Because I've been around as long as I have, I tend to, no matter whether a manager has liked this or hasn't liked this, I've still played under all of them. So I feel as if I must be doing something well. So I just feel like to keep just doing what I can do, like control what I can control, and I don't worry about what I know.

12:17Can you pinpoint a moment when that changed for you? After I was released from Fulham, that was probably one of the best things that happened to us because I would have stayed at Fulham if they'd offered us something. Just because of the comfort of it because I was already down there and doing it. When I got released from Fulham, I thought I was going to have loads of teams like ringing us up, asking to go there. And the reality was the only team that would take us was Wigan. So I was very lucky how that did it. But then when I got there and I got my confidence back and started playing, And yeah, just realise that like, you can't compare yourself to other people.

12:49You can only push yourself to get better. You're only really competing with yourself, do I mean, to get better every single day. And if we fast forward from those early days to March 2025, can we talk then about what happened just a few weeks ago? It probably feels like two minutes ago at Wembley Stadium. The goal. Well, let's talk about the game. The League Cup final. The League Cup final, okay. Yeah, it was... First of all, you're in the tunnel, about to walk out. what are you thinking? Yeah, just like I just wanted to get it done. I think it was such like a burden. I didn't want to admit that but it is, was a burden like 70 years without a trophy.

13:23It's like, it is a burden when you're playing but that's all people speak about. So it was like, we'd been there the first time, we'd not perform, we'd not scored, like not really give the crowd. I just wanted to like give the crowd something to sort of cheer about and it was a similar though. Like when I went out before the game and I saw the fans, I could feel myself like welling up a little bit because I was like, wow, this is like, it's a big so I was like right take yourself in and just like do what you do which is like how I prepare for games and all that and sort of mentally getting myself in the right place but it was just pure focus like I wasn't thinking about anything anything else it was just like what have I got to do to give us the best chance I was there in a fan capacity and like Liverpool are some of the greatest fans in the country like they are renowned for being loud there was only one set of fans in that stadium that day and they were the Newcastle fans it's like it was like their desperation was the superpower for the team that day it felt like to me.

14:13Yeah, 100%. You could feel that in the stadium though. Like when you looked and saw the Newcastle fans compared to the Liverpool fans. And don't get us wrong, like listen, Liverpool are an unbelievable team. Like used to playing in finals, used to winning things and like we're not. So like maybe, I'm not speaking for them, but that might not have meant, it definitely didn't mean as much to them as it did to us. Do you know what I mean? Like as in the Elite Cup final, it was like the be all and end all for us, whereas them, it was like just another trophy. So like when I like clocked that straight away, no, it's like, right, okay, like we're up for it and we sort of feed off the fans like the fans feed off us by the way we go about it and then we feed off them when they're getting more going and once we'd started and like played well and getting in there and obviously you get the goal just before half time like just gives you that bit of belief that you can get it done.

14:54So tell us about the goal though. Yeah. No I think it was like something that we had worked on in training I'm sure like the gaffer sport about before and it never ever goes that well but it was more just you've got sort of their best headers were all around the six yard box so it's like how can you isolate that and it's like a big game of chess really footballers and like they do this so how can we do to get the advantage and what can we do and it doesn't always work but I felt as if I was getting to the balls and then like as that was coming in it was just like yeah I'm getting after that the second I headed it like I knew it was in it was just one of those things that everything just sort of came together and then pure like I couldn't believe that it happened and then like what do I do where do I celebrate like wasn't at the Newcastle end but just pure like I was just so pumped never been that pumped for anything before really and how did you control the emotions to be able to then go back into the process I think it helped that half time game like literally straight away but I think as I said I feel as I am quite good at that like if I'd made a mistake like I'm quite good at being like right it's done nothing you can do about it just like focus and it was the same sort of thing as like I've scored but like this is Liverpool like it's not going to be like this like you've got to expect some sort of reaction like we're still going to have to be on top of our game if we're going to get through it and I think that like half time really made we're focused because we'd spoke about weeks prior like how slow we've been to start second halves and like how we've been outperformed physically like from a sprint wise and high intensity wise and we've just sort of like said like right we're just going to like run as hard as we can for the first 15 minutes and get ourselves into this game and then we'll see where we are and that's like when we've seen it back like you can see as you're going and obviously we scored pretty quickly second half then you know Liverpool are going to come back into Liverpool So that's interesting so you see the output I guess from the players during the games and it showed a drop at the start of the second half in Premier League matches and in the League Cup final what did it show?

16:40Just so you could see it on the rise it's got different levels and stuff and you could just see that the second that started people were sprinting straight away high intensity that doesn't mean you're going to win a game that doesn't always translate to that but if you look at it you'll get results far more from doing that than if you wouldn't and we knew that Liverpool were going to react because they were 1-0 down but we wanted to have a mental thing where I was like no, where? reacting as well like we're not just going to like sit and defend this lead like we're coming again like we're going again Did you talk at half time?

17:13Not me personally I remember Bruno spoke beforehand about we're going on the pitch as players and like leaving as legends and stuff and we got like everyone pumped up do you know what I mean I spoke at the first final like before do you know the man in the arena speech? Yeah yeah It was another one of those things where like I felt as if I wanted to say something but I didn't know what I wanted to say but I felt as if I'd regret it if I didn't I felt as if I was base in my career where when I was a kid I would never have done that but like I want people to know how much this means like to us and like what we've been in and like everyone was together and like no one can judge anyone who's not been in this position before and that sort of thing so obviously we've got beats so I'm ending out but like I feel as if like Still a good message Yeah like it was just like what it's one of them things again where like I feel as if someone gets up there and shows themselves being vulnerable and what like matters to them and stuff like you relate it more and like if that like if one person thought like Like, right, I'll run a bit more tomorrow or I'll do a bit more, then it's got a positive effect.

18:10It then goes 2-1 in the final. What are you thinking at that point? Yeah, panic. After panic, yeah. I thought it was sorted out well, though. Like, it was, I think that showed how far we've come as a team and it wasn't where, it was like pure panic, like balls getting booted away and stuff like that. It's like we managed to like control the game well, like we kept the ball in the corner well and at that point, you've just sort of got to see the game out. And how vocal are you at that point talking to the players during the game about just keep your head there's not long left you're loud constantly I've talked the whole game I think it is more just about like keeping people switched on and that that's probably for me as much as them because it keeps me focused as well in the moment and trying to make sure that we're everybody's on the same page like where are we are we in a defensive block and zone or we're going out for a press like everyone's on the same sort of message for it and was there a moment when you knew the game was won well where the whistle went but not before no no no I don't think so I think you were getting that feeling where everything was going our way we were winning first and second balls we were holding the ball up and managing to get in the areas that we wanted to but until the whistle's gone you're always like this is you didn't dare imagine it was going to happen no not at all and even when it did it was like you dream of what it's going to feel like but you've never had it so it was like what do we do where do I run what am I doing do you know there's been a lot of studies into this actually that when you want something so badly you imagine getting that thing so often that actually when it finally happens there's no joy because you've already you've already had the joy those nights lying in bed thinking how am I going to feel when I'm a trophy winner at Newcastle you've already had the thrill it's more like honestly it's a bit of an anti-climax honestly as in the pleasure in it is like the journey and like how much we've had to stick together and what we've been through from being like 19th on the table and no one gave a chance of staying up to getting to the Champions League getting beat in that final and doing that and that has been like the enjoyment in it whereas when you get the end you're a bit like oh alright what do we do now so when did those come in so how long after that final whistle did you start thinking what's next probably like a few days later you start thinking that because obviously I didn't really have time to celebrate properly do you know what I mean but it was like it does I feel as if that's life in general isn't it you always have a goal and where you want to get to and you get there and then what's next it's never like oh that's enough you always want more and so now it's like alright can we get Champions League again like can we go can we win another cup next year like can we start like challenging for second place can we start challenging for first place it's like it's never enough and I think we should have a word for those fans as well because not only have they had a long wait for a trophy lots of fans have had a long wait for a trophy but when they had an owner that wasn't running the club in the way that he really should have been often when the fans spoke about it they were kind of dismissed really people are like what you're moaning about this is football and then finally they get new owners in they get the players in that want to win it for them the fact that they were at such a low ebb the fact they really didn't have a voice at that football club for a long time the fact that they are so responsible for what Newcastle is for them it was incredible what would you like to say about the Newcastle fans?

21:19No just like thank you for the support I've been there I know what it was I remember when the owners took over and said we don't demand a team that wins we just demand a team that tries and that is like the philosophy of the region such like a working class thing like the result of the club like affects the whole city for that week do you know what I mean if you win like everybody's very upbeat like shops do well like that's what genuinely like that's how mad it is whereas like when it's the other way it's very but like when I was a fan like all I wanted to do was is like I wanted to see people just give absolutely everything so I loved like Joey Barton like Kevin Nolan Andy Carroll Alan Smith like all these players Scott Parker who would just like run themselves into the ground and like you knew that they'd given absolutely everything that day to do it and I think that's what the fans feed off.

22:05They love the way that we play because it's like all action, high intensity. People like flying into a tackle and then getting up and then going and smashing someone else and doing three presses and stuff. And like that's the way we play really like is what the city is. We now know you're a proven Premier League player with over 200 appearances. We know that you're a trophy winner with the League Cup at Newcastle. You're also an England footballer, right? Crazy. Crazy. Is that how it feels? Yeah, I'll definitely look at 100 England caps and all that. But yeah, just very sort of surreal. I've genuinely always felt as if I had the ability to do it.

22:45But obviously, it's a game of opinions. And some managers, and not the way Gareth did it was great. As in, you ran it more like a club. You had a team who played lots of games with each other and really knew it. And we got two Euros finals, World Cup semifinals. It was very, very successful. but then that worked against me because I'd never played any England level like not 21s, 17s, 18s, anything at all and the only way you can get that experience is by having that experience so it's like you can't really win so once the new manager came in it didn't like, it wasn't something where I thought oh like I could play for England yeah it was just sort of like alright maybe there's a chance and I think what helped was is that a lot of people got calls to say that they were on a list and I never got that call so the only, the first time I heard that there was a chance that I was getting called that we played West Ham on the Monday night and I found out Tuesday morning I got a text off Thomas Tuchel saying hi it's Thomas Tuchel which I was like straight away I'm getting pranked you know zero chances So you didn't have his number in your phone?

23:43No I just said like TT so I was like who do I know here who would like be able to validate it I was like I'm just going to have to take a chance but like that's the first so that was the Tuesday But what did the text say? It said like hi Dan was at the West Ham game last night would love to be able to speak to you on FaceTime later today if there's a time that's sort of convenient for you. And that was obviously the Tuesday and the team got announced on the Thursday. So like people had found out like six, seven weeks before, but I didn't have that like in the back of my head every time I played thinking, oh, the England manager was watching us, the England manager was watching us.

24:13That was just it up to the final. So I was like, right, I'm just gonna have to commit to YRL FaceTime to him. And if it's not him, like just one of them things in it. Like I just have to do it. And it was him. And I was like, wow, that's like England manager. What did you say? I just sort of said, I'm really happy that it was you at the start. It was good. and he just sort of said, yeah, like, I've been watching you. Like, I thought you were great last night. He was like, you missed one header, which I was fuming about, but apart from that, it was all right. And just said, like, I think you'd be a really good fit.

24:42I want, like, sort of leaders in and around the group and people that would feel they'd be ready to play right now. Like, if we had a final, could you play in the final? Like, yes, I believe you could. Like, you've got that sort of mentality. So I was like, oh, buzzing. Then he was like, oh, do you want to say anything? And I just sort of said, listen, I'll say the same thing that I said to Eddie Howe when I signed, like, I feel as if I can bring just as much on the pitch as I do off the pitch. Like, the way that I go about it, I've got really high standards on myself. And, like, you'll not regret it.

25:08Do you know what I mean? Like, if you take this chance, like, you'll not regret doing it. Do you know what I mean? And then, like, I come off the phone, I was like, should I have said more? So, like, I just sent him a text. And I just said, listen, like, if I don't send this text, I'll always think I should have sent the text. Like, whether it makes a difference or not, I'll just send him a text. I just said, listen, really great to speak to you. just want to say again I'd be so grateful for the opportunity this is what I'll do and he just said thanks for the text me too or whatever and then he said I'll let you know by Thursday so he's not even said on those calls you're in the squad no he said at the minute the problem was that obviously I'm getting older as well so it was like how old are you I'm 32 so I'll be like 33 but I feel 25 yeah yeah but I feel great do you know what I mean he said yeah obviously that's probably the only thing that might work against you but he said like how many times have you been elected England squad I was like no no like I've done nothing he said whatever like any level I was like no no he was like let's make it happen then let's go and stuff so I was like buzzing do you know what I mean but he says like I've got a big meeting tomorrow or whatever but I'll let you know Thursday so I got like 7 o 'clock Thursday and I'd not heard anything so I said to him like Ross I was like no I don't think so and then I was about to go to bed so I got like half 10 or something I got a text office how are you feeling at that point yeah like low but I was like just even to be considered like I was like so proud of it from where I'd been to what I'd done like just even have that recognition that like I was being considered to be an England player was like massive and that would have been enough genuinely like I would have been happy with that and then I got a text just saying like are you awake?

26:38So like straight away I was like yes on a FaceTime so and then he rang and he was like how unprofessional is this? Like 10.30 and you're not in bed like Anthony Barry was right like such an unprofessional person so and then he said oh I've been sort of video calling everyone who hasn't made the squad so it's been like a pretty sad day so they're straight away and then your heart sinks but he was like oh I need to leave like a good bit at the end so like yeah we're calling you up and so I was like buzzing like genuinely like probably the happiest I've ever been in football just like I mean my wife was like crying like she was buzzing was you still awake?

27:11yeah she was like I was on FaceTime but I could see her in the background like looking for a reaction and I could see her like running around the room like excited I'm welling up just hearing you talk about it class and then the thing was it had been leaked just after that so it was like half ten at night so I knew my mum and dad would be in bed so like I didn't I just wanted to leave it all the morning and I could do it but because I'd seen that it had been leaked I didn't want them to see that in the morning so like I rang my mum she didn't wake up and then rang her again and like explain so she was like screaming down the phone and like my dad was buzzing so like I said I found out on the Tuesday I was being spoken about but I didn't say anything to anyone because I was like I just didn't want to like jinx it or anything so what did your parents say?

27:48yeah just like sort of really proud you know what I mean like really like everything that sort of happened and all the years building up that for them to have that and like they never thought I was going to be an England player never thought I was probably going to play professional football so for them to have it was just nice to be able to do that and then rang my brother who was in Canada and what was it like when you first arrived at St George's you get the tracksuit you hang around with all the established names what was that experience like? it's probably that same sort of thing like you get that little bit of imposter syndrome do you know what I mean that you have where like these lads have played like so many caps I played all level of age groups and this is like my first time and I'm 32 years old like it was like Miles' first time and he was 18 do you know what I mean so it was like me and him were having that same experience at like totally different ends of his careers but it was sort of like that I wasn't wasn't nervous at all I was thinking like do you know what I've played like nearly 500 games like what have I got to be nervous about and like one of the coaches said it was like I don't want to say like who but I remember in my press conference I said like I'm just really happy that the manager took a chance on us and I hope they'll repay him and he was like why did you say that?

28:52And I was like just because that's what he said he was like there's no chance do you know what I mean? It's not like we're picking a 17 year old lad who's not played a game we know exactly what we're getting from you so it isn't a chance you can say thank you for the opportunity but your mentality isn't like this is a chance it was like we know exactly what we're getting we know what you bring there is no chance this is what it is I thought I was like yeah why do I say that? which is what you feel like you're saying Yeah you've not won a competition to be that you've earned it I've played it and obviously I've just played the biggest game of my life like three days earlier for me personally as a Newcastle supporter so like this wasn't any bigger than that do you know what I mean so like coming up with a game I wasn't nervous before the game like when he told us that in the morning that I was playing it wasn't like where I was like brick and a thing like wow this is like this is too much how did he do that we're trained and I always back myself in training so I feel like I'm quite a good trainer and I show what I can bring in training so like once we'd trained and I'd got through that first session I was nervous for that first session because like the first day we'd been on recovery so I'd been watching the lads train I was like wow that ball is zipping about you I am nervous like I hope I can keep up because you just want to like not miss a part and then when once we'd trained and I got through I thought like I can do this like I got through it and I was like well I didn't feel as if I looked out of place like done pretty well like and all the bits that I wanted to do and then as the days went on and I was still doing well and I felt as though doing better and I got the bits where like obviously I've got to be good at to like set pieces so like when the ball's coming in the box like I've got to be there to head the ball away like when the ball comes in the box I've got to be the one who's got to get that contact to score the goal and I was doing well at that and he pulled us off a train and said oh like I thought you could start tomorrow but like everything that you've said like I feel like you've brought and he says like I don't think we'd have any problems so he said like just like be ready like I'm not saying you are but he just said like just be ready and I was like yeah yeah that's fine like I'll be ready to go like whatever you want us to do and then we had a meeting in the morning and sort of like named the team.

30:47And yeah, just sort of buzzing. Absolutely buzzing. And was your experience of being an England player for the first time similar to winning the League Cup where you're like, well, it's fine, but I want a bit more now. What's next? So obviously like international football and like World Cup and that wasn't even on my radar, obviously. But now that you've had it, and I think being in that first squad was important and being in that first team is important. But I've been around long enough to know that that doesn't mean anything. really, do you know what I mean? Like, you've got to make the next camp and then you've got to make the next camp and you've got to keep performing at a higher level.

31:19Like, I'm going to have to keep playing for Newcastle every week, weekend, week out at a higher level if I want to, to get to that, like, World Cup, which is like, even that, the words I'm saying, like, the fact that I could possibly be in with that opportunity is crazy. But, that's something that I believe I can do. Such a strange thing. And in that training session, how vocal were you? You know, you're obviously somebody that leads by example, but also by your words as well. Yeah, not very. He said, when you come in, I just want you to be exactly the same as what you are. Don't come in and be like, I don't want to tread on people's toes or I don't want to say this or I don't want to do that.

31:55Just come in and be you because that's part of the reason why you're here. Do you know what I mean? For that sort of role as an experienced player, I was like, all right, stuff it. So I just went about it like how I would go about it in Newcastle. I thought that's the best version of me is that. so I'm not I don't know how long I'm going to be here if I'm going to be here I'm going to do it how I feel it should be done and I think that obviously helped so you know it's important to keep the lines of communication open with being a manager is that something that you've done just to yeah so like he came to the Man United game and then sort of texted us after like I've been on FaceTime and he was sort of like reviewing the England camp and what like sort of he wanted us to do better and what he thought I did well so yeah I think like a lot of it is but like I feel like that's probably one of my one of my strengths like on the pitch like it's something that isn't seen because you don't see that when you're watching TV do you know what I mean so like people look at players who are very technically good and you can quite clearly see why they're on the pitch but you don't get to see what I bring sometimes to the pitch but I know that my teammates and the manager appreciate that and that's what I'm good at and that's why I play like yeah can I hit a Diag yeah but can I hit it as well as Fabian Shark and hit a die no so like let him do that like what are you good at like I've got to communicate and like setting off a press like make sure everyone's on the same page like oh like he should have been a bit higher there so tell him to do that but like and he's probably not as good at that as me so like it's not about what I need to be better than him at or him at I'm hit at like if you want on the ball do you want Dan Byrne on the ball do you want Bruno Guimeras you want Bruno so give Bruno the ball like I don't need to be like doing Mazys up the pitch and doing all that do you know what I'm saying it's a long time it took a long time for us to realise that but I feel as if like that's where I'm probably better now like I'm I don't need to be the main guy I just want to like help the lads around us as much as possible and I bet Eddie Howe was delighted for you because he's that kind of bloke yeah it was good it was hard though because that was the Thursday night Friday we were training the cup finals on the Sunday so like I sort of went into him on the Friday and the staff and I said like like have you heard he was like oh yeah I've just had a text I was like right like let's speak about it now and he sort of said like I'm absolutely buzzing for you but he said like we've got the cup final so like let's like park it after the cup final we'll talk about it and I said yeah absolutely fine I said I just want to speak to the bounties now because if we don't speak about it like we should but the second I leave this room like it's gone right and we'll do the cup final and then like after that and what did you want to talk about?

34:24I just no even that I wanted to speak about but it was a big thing like me made like the lads were buzzing for us do you know what I mean? like because they had seen what I'd been through and like how long it would take to get here so like they wanted to speak about it so it's not that I didn't speak about it but I didn't want it to be where even in the press I didn't want it to be a distraction from what we're getting there because it was it was just such a big thing obviously the cup final for Newcastle I didn't want to take away from that and do that I just wanted to do that and then the second that the cup final was over I was like okay right now it's on England We had Dr Steve Peters the psychiatrist on the podcast and he was talking about how often when you can externalise an emotion it doesn't matter whether it's a positive or a negative one it neutralises it in many ways because then you can you can view it with a degree of detachment and I think what you're describing in the whole of the build up to that League Cup final win is just the ability to articulate emotions yeah yeah I think that's like just speaking about it and then like we've had the conversation you know what I mean so you're not always like thinking about yeah like it's been there and it's done let's talk then about Newcastle and where you are at the moment I mean it's been incredible let's go back to the day that you sort of walked through the door at the training ground And Newcastle were, what, 19th in the table, I think, when you joined them.

35:37What was your first impression of Eddie Howe? Yeah, I'd spoken to people about him, so I knew what he was about, like, very, very intense, the way that he works, which I love. I love training anyway, so I was more than happy with that. It wasn't always just about wanting you to be a better footballer, just wanting to improve you, like, as a person, but really cared about you, rather than not just, like, me, the footballer, like me, the person, my family. So he would have put a lot of effort then to make sure that you're the right kind of character as well as the right kind of footballer. Yeah, but I would think that's the whole team together.

36:10Like they do the due diligence. I said, I got a text off a friend just before I signed saying, I'll thank us later. And I was like, what's he on about? And then I'd learned that the manager getting in touch with like some people who work for Newcastle, but like knew my local area. They get in touch with people that knew me and my friends to see if there'd be sort of a bad influence on us. when I was back home. Which was good though because then I think you always know that you're bringing in the right characters into the dressing room and I think that full sort of 10 days before I signed I spent I remember I was on Dubai with my family and I spent the whole time just like on the promenade with my son like in the prom just on the phone just trying to get the deal to happen.

36:50What sort of conversations? That many people were offering players to Newcastle because Newcastle had come in and had all this money and they knew that there were after players in certain positions so I knew I was competing with like six or seven players to get there and I remember I was speaking to my agent, he was speaking to someone, he was speaking to someone, I just thought like, oh, stuff this. So I was like, get his Eddie Howe's number. So I ran the gaffer and just said like, listen, this is what I feel I can bring to the team. Obviously like on the pitch, this is what I feel as if I can do but like off the pitch, I feel as if I'm a leader, like I can hold people to high standards and I hold myself to high standards so like I feel as if that would really help and I'm desperate to come home.

37:31I want to help as much as possible and stuff. And I feel like those are probably little things that helped get it done. What did he say? No, he's like, no, I'm not having it. No, he said, I think it's just sometimes it just takes something like that to get something done when you're choosing between three or four players. And he just said, yeah, if you can do everything that you've said that you can do, then... Do you think it made a difference? I think it made a difference, yeah. I think it probably just made it in that. personal bit because I think it was probably a lot of players that were maybe looking to go to Newcastle just for the owners coming in and the money It was a payday for a lot of people and I was a Newcastle supporter I'd had a season ticket when I was a kid and stuff so it was for me it was like the dream to come home but you just never really think that you're going to have that chance And when we sat down with Eddie Dan he was big on non-negotiables so when you're selling what you could do to him what was he asking for you what was he telling you about the standards From speaking to people, I sort of knew what his standard's about, but it was about sort of that intensity you worked at.

38:34It was more like the way that the trainers, the way that the player had like sort of leading by example. I feel like it really pushes me out of my comfort zone. Can you give us an example? I love like motivational videos, that sort of stuff. So I'm big into like NFL. The Americans are so much better at doing that sort of stuff. Whereas like in England, it's like a bit cringy. Do you know what I mean? I don't know why it is. but like so I watched a thing called Hard Knocks so it follows like a NFL team through pre-season and like they always do like these great speeches and stuff so I like got this video and I was just sat there and I was like I'm just gonna send this to the gaffer and just be like oh listen I think this would help like we should like present it to the lads and he said oh listen great video like but I want you to do it I was like oh I don't want it do you know what I mean and I was like alright stuff like if it motivates me I'll do it so like doing that but like now like I'm quite comfortable doing that sort of thing.

39:26Did he tell you about timelines or not? No. So he's got a... Is this where you get up at... Yeah. Go on, you tell us. So he's got a... It's a thing called timeline, essentially. So it's... There's been a timeline we're put on it now because Nick Popes was like 40 minutes long and we ended up having to push training back. But yeah, so you get up and basically you speak 10 minutes about anything, but it tends to be like your life and how you... Like who you grew up with, like all that sort of stuff. But it's good because I think football, like you only know people from like a superficial point of view.

39:55So it's like, you all right, mate? How are you? Like, what did you do last night? What are you doing in the summer? That sort of stuff. Whereas you don't really like learn about people, but the timeline, like, so like, for instance, Joe Linton, like being brought up in Brazil, pictures where he used to live, like what do you have to do to get a train and then his journey. And I feel as if like, because like you're quite vulnerable with it, like it brings everyone really tightly together. Do you know what I mean? So even like just little stuff that doesn't seem a big thing, but then like it gives you appreciation of what someone else has has been through and like you can see it from their point of view.

40:25And what's the reaction in the dressing room when somebody does stand up and share that story? No, it's good. I think like when I was younger, it was a bit like everyone's like, I've been busy, do you know what I mean? But I feel as if we've created an environment where people are comfortable doing that and you want to see what motivates people. And like, if I got up and did it and one person gets a reaction from it, then that's one person better than it was before. So for a cynic listening to it, they're going yeah this is great would you tell us how it translates out onto the field doing an exercise like that it just focuses people a bit more and like you say on the pitch something happens like I'm prepared to go and do more for someone than you wouldn't if you know what I mean I think what the hard thing is sometimes when you get higher there's so many different cultures that like I've got a mentality what I think is right but that doesn't mean that a lad from France has got that mentality but it doesn't mean that's wrong they just mean that there's a different way of looking at it but sometimes I'm so like no this is the way it should be done but when you like realise oh that's the way he was brought up you can understand it a little bit more and then it makes you like a bit more like that you not allow them to get away with more but like you understand a different point of view and why they act like that so good because you know one of the most important things you can do right is lean into people it's really easy to get riled up and annoyed by your teammates that you don't know right and you don't realise that maybe they're acting like that because of something that's happened in their past.

41:52We had CEO Khaleesi on the podcast, the Springboks captain, and he had a similar story to you about players standing up and being vulnerable. And he said the biggest lesson that he took from that was in the very last minute of a World Cup final when you're a few points down and you're covered in mud and you're knackered, you look to your left and you don't see your teammates, you see your brothers. And he said then it's like a shared unity. I think it's really clever what Eddie's come up with there. I think it's really made with a lot tighter. I think from the outside, I think people see quite a tight-knit group but the amount of time you spend with these people you spend more time than with your family a lot of it so I think it just helps bringing everyone together and it's not where it's like a staff and the players it's just us as a team all trying to pull in that one direction So when you get a new signing coming in how do you induct them?

42:39So I think first of all you've got your standard one so do you know even when every club does it your initiation song that's not even about singing it's just about everyone being on a level playing field do you know what I mean and like being vulnerable what was yours what did I do I did Mario let me love you how does that go again horrific get us five pints I'll do it so yeah even just can you get some beers in yeah we'll get some beers in I'll have a go but even that like just like doing it but I always say even at Newcastle I feel like it's rare that a player comes in and goes straight into the team straight away and stays there I feel like there's so much goes in what we do and the patterns that the gaffer does and the way that he wants us to press and it's such like a well-oiled machine that it takes a while to adapt to that training and go.

43:29Let's talk then about this mixing the kind of emotional strength that he's given you all and this unity with his incredibly in-depth tactical work. You know, as you know, I'm friends with a couple of other players in the Newcastle dressing room and they say they've never known a manager to approach tactics in the way that Eddie Howe does. Would you explain this idea around his patterns for us? Yeah, without giving too much away. No, I feel like now it's very easy for us to do because you've done it for so long. So we'll have sort of like six or seven patterns depending on whereabouts we are on the pitch and he'll say a pattern name.

44:03So I'm not going to say what the name is, but say it's like Zebra. But we'll know exactly where the passes are going and the idea behind it. And it's not so much that might come off exactly in a game, but it's more just like a principle that you try and do. and then there's different ones for us dropping into a back three and players dropping down from like a in football term from like an eight position into a six position and the way that it happens but I feel that's something that like over time it's developed and it's always changing where the Gaffers like never really stood still so like the patterns we do now aren't the patterns we were doing when he first came in like people over take it he's like constantly trying to evolve it So is it almost like their goalkeeper plays the ball out to a centre half and he plays a diagonal ball, right?

44:51You will know in your head that if that's what happens, that is a certain pattern for you. Everyone then moves into their right positions. And therefore, you're not second-guessing what your teammates are doing. No, I pretty much know where the ball's going before the ball gets to me. Just by the way it's been built up and come round are different ways. It's good because it allows what creative players in the attacking field have that freedom to do what they do, but also makes it predictable. where you know, right, if Anthony Gorda gets it on this left wing here and he cuts inside, I know exactly where the ball is going to be.

45:24How effective do you think that's been in helping you pick up results that you have? Yeah, hugely. I feel like when we don't play well, we don't stick to a structure as much as we're sort of like freewheeling. Especially like when we're in a press, so like the press will change every single game, depending on who we're playing, the players that the strengths are. So like, say for instance, a trigger might have been the good ball going from one centre-half to the other, I'd be where Alex jumps, well, left winger jumps and then we sort of swing round, but you're different areas of the pitch. There's different triggers.

45:57So it's complicated. It sounds really complicated, but because we've done it for so long, it's just like, it's sort of second nature, I think. And when you're preparing for an opponent, how much time do you spend focusing on their strengths as opposed to your own? What's that balance? So the gaffer, as the gaffer said, how many games he watches? So the gaffer watches like eight or nine games on every opponent, which is like, if you're playing three games, a week. That's like a lot of time. Do you know what I mean? But we'll probably do spend a day out of possession where we'll work on their strengths and how we stop them getting to where they want to do and how we can do it and then the next day we'll do in possession and then we've got like an in-between which is like transition moments.

46:36How do we lock out opponents when we've got the ball in the final third so it's more like defenders and then how quickly can we sort of transition from defense to attack in the defensive to third when we're seeing a low block, how quickly can we win the ball, go forward and sort of go. So it's like, you know every week. So I'll go into a game on Saturday and I'll know exactly my job. What about the work Eddie does with individuals? What does he do with you to keep your confidence up, to make you realise what an important part of the team you are? Just like regular interaction. I mean, like pulling you in and let's say something's happened in a game.

47:11So like even like for an example, so like Friday night he pulled us in because and training, something had happened where he didn't think I'd reacted the way I should have to a decision. And then, so like, would spoke a bit about it and had it back and forth. And then he sat us down and said, look, I'll show you the clip. This is why I'm talking about it. So it's like the conflict's done, but he's like, you, the difference between, say, me and like a very creative attacking player is that like, I've got to be quite like level-headed, which I feel is like a strength for me, like quite composed and nothing should really affect us.

47:46And like, my standards have to be very high because if I don't train at that high standard, like, I'm not keeping up with the team. Whereas you've got creative players, like say, Alex and Anthony and Jacob and Bruno, like, they can have little off days because like, their top level is top. Whereas I need to be at a certain level consistently to keep up with them. Do you know what I mean? So I feel as I'm probably held to different standards than other people, but I understand that because I'm not those creative players. And that's not what I bring to the team. I don't bring a creative flair to the team, but what I bring to the team is just as important as what they do, but I do it in a different way.

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50:28You said that in that phone call from Dubai with Eddie, you promised a level of leadership. Would you give us some examples then of how you helped with that leadership group to manage to the dressing room and get that appreciation that everybody's got different skills, everyone's got different roles to play. Yeah, I think I always feel as if I'm a lead by example. So I always feel I try and make the right choice, not the easy choice. I feel like there's so many times there's a choice. Even just in the training ground, if I want to go in the gym, sometimes I don't want to go in the gym. But I know that that's the right thing to do.

50:59And by me doing that, other people look at me and think, all right, then if he's doing that, I should be doing that. More things. That's what I found quite hard when I signed is that I was put in a sort of a leadership group and I'm asked to speak to lads and motivate lads and they're like these are like international players do you know what I mean like I was playing like conference league two league one champ I played Premier League games but I hadn't played 100 Premier League games yet so like I wasn't like an accomplished Premier League player but then I'm getting asked to hold standards for like not that they need them but say like Kieran Trippier they're like however many games for England won La Liga like Bruno plays for Brazil all these people and you sort of think like I don't know if I should be telling these lads what to do.

51:40So you've got imposter syndrome. Yeah, a little bit. But I think everyone gets it, don't they? And then when I spoke to the manager about it, he's like, I know, but people look at you still to hold those standards. So just because you don't do that and you don't play at that thing, that doesn't mean that your contribution to the team's any less. Do you know what I mean? If anything, it's the other way. People look at the journey you've had, maybe might be inspired a little bit by that. So don't have those thoughts in your head. but it's quite hard because it's only natural to feel like that whereas now I just think no I've earned the right to be where I am and playing at the level and I'm happy for people to look at me in that way So how did you overcome those doubts?

52:24Confidence a lot of it and I think as well like pushing yourself out of my comfort zone like I like I like pushing myself out of my comfort zone like I like feeling uncomfortable a little bit even stuff in meetings like saying things when sometimes you think oh I don't really want to say that but then like having the confidence to do it and knowing that that's the right thing to do even though that's not like say in training like one of the lads isn't putting the effort in that or like hitting the standards that we do like calling them out on it in a constructive way but knowing that like the way I go about it is if I call anyone out, no one could turn around to me and say, yeah, you don't do it.

53:09Because I feel as if I like, I try and do absolutely everything possible so that I can do that. Would you take us into the, you know, the leadership group that Eddie's put together there? How does that work? Does he come to you with things that need resolving and you resolve them? Do you get together and do you discuss like where the club's at and work out how to sort things out? What kind of, I suppose, where does the manager's role sit and where does you, like, when do you get involved? Yeah, it doesn't have a massive input into the leadership group it's more looked after by Stephen Purchase and JT Jason Tindall so he's obviously if there's things that he wants to speak about we'll discuss them but like the leadership group can be anything from sorting tickets for the Wembley final to like things we've seen in training or if we've had a bad game at the weekend it's like how can the five or six of us control that and push each other on it's only sometimes it's just like every few weeks getting together and making sure we're all on the same page so like when we're out of training like I'll like between the six of a wheel time driver who's in the group so it's me Kieran Trippier Jamal LaSelles Bruno Jacob Murphy and Callum Wilson so when I came there was a leadership group and then the gaffer put me into it and then sometimes we'll vote people to go into it like Jacob Murphy like we had a vote earlier this year who we thought should go in and then he went into it which is nice because I think when you vote in by your peers like what had you seen from him where you all thought it's the same sort of thing it's like setting standards and like the way he goes about like just like daily life in training like people like look up to that similar sort of thing like obviously he wasn't playing regularly for a while and then this season like he's being on fire and saying like that's no fluke do you know what I mean the stuff he does in and around training after training and he's such a confidence player and a confidence person as well I think that being invited to be in the leadership group he's the kind of player that would have really got a lot from that you could see it like touching him he was a bit emotional about it which is nice because it's nice to say that especially when you're voted by your mates it means a lot sometimes you might not see yourself as that but everybody else does but say for an example of the leadership group leading up to the final the first time we recognised that we didn't get that the emotional side of it right we were way too hyped for the Manchester United game way too hyped as in the build up to it obviously we felt as if In hindsight, we were probably lucky to get to that final, whereas at the second final, we knew we deserved to be there.

55:37So it was such a big thing for Newcastle. The city was crazy going towards that first final. And then we were so hyped for it. I'd never, ever... Athletic keeps saying that we'll blame them for this, but we don't. But they went to family and released letters beforehand. And they got sent into the group chat in the morning. I remember being in bed and reading the letters. And I was like, I was an absolute wreck. Parents talk about how much the kids have been through. and there was one about like glorious carriers obviously making a mistake in the champions league final and like him coming back to do that and i was like by the time i got the game honestly i was done like absolutely shattered like just like emotionally it was just too much i mean so like this time we made like a really big thing of it where we're trying to treat it like any other game like we knew that it was a big game and like but we wanted to get that balance right between like being emotionally at a level where we could perform at best but also when we spoke about around the training ground that were like, oh, when we beat Liverpool?

56:34It wasn't like, oh, it would be good if we win. It was like, oh no, when we beat Liverpool, this will happen. Just more like anyone who doubted that, you sort of nipped it in the bud straight away and it was like a thing that was spoke about. Don't get us wrong, did that make a difference? You don't know. Like hindsight's a great thing. If I'd have won that first final, everyone would have been like, oh, like them letters, like unbelievable. It meant so much to them and stuff. So like hindsight's a great thing, but I feel like that's what we got right the second time where we're at a level where we're believed that we're going to win but like not it wasn't too much where they were over emotional and like didn't react well and that's a leadership group you'd got together and yeah and spoke about it and stuff and I feel that's where the leadership group sort of helps and do you then also go to the manager and say look we think that it was a bit much last time we're going to try and turn it down as players and he understands where you're coming from yeah yeah and I think he knew that as well though do you know what I mean I feel like we knew it as a club like just even like stupid things like we had such a carry on like trying to sort tickets out and we're wanting to like or what we're wearing at the final like does it really matter like oh should we get suits like should we do this should we do that like oh where we're staying like what's this happening like but the reality is like does that really make a difference but because it was the first time it was such like a big thing no one really knew what we're doing where the second time we got round of it like right that's how many tickets you get go and do that like this is what we're wearing this is where we're staying this is the situation but after right let's focus on the game you know what I mean like we really sort of made a thing about like we had a cut off of when we were speaking about the final and then after that it was just sort of like business when was the cut off?

58:05like a couple of weeks before so we had like games building into it but we were like right with no one speaking about tickets after this so like once it's done like we're not doing it we're not speaking about what we're wearing so just like another fixture? yeah yeah so we're just trying to treat it like another game and that worked for us like it's like we I think we're a big team on like the process like if we get the process right like the result will take care of itself do you know what I mean? and I feel as if the second time we nailed that and easy to say because we won like if we hadn't have beat Liverpool like we might have been saying something else but as in like I feel that was a big difference between the two so much of your world is about the outcome not the process isn't it so that's a really interesting revelation then that actually the process is where the magic is yeah I feel so I feel like that's when we're best like the gaffer's got his process and we've bought into that and we've seen the results of that like I remember Graham speaking about it probably on this as well where he said like it's all good having a process, but you also need the results to come with it as well.

59:00So that, like when he came in, when we were at Brighton, we went from playing under Chris Hewton and it was probably a bit more defensive, like not as expansive. And then Graham Potter came in and it was like all this expansive football and stuff like that. But you need the results to back that up as well. I mean, if we had lost those first few games, people are probably thinking like, what are we doing here? But like, because we won the first few and got on a bit of a run, I was like, wow, this is like, this works. And like, you really buy into it. And I feel like it like snowballs. Are you taking time to really enjoy this part of your career when you think about the challenges of the early part of your career?

59:33Yeah, definitely. I feel like the second half of my career, probably from my Brighton onwards, I've really learned and enjoyed it. And I don't play from fear anymore because I feel as if I deserve to play at this level. I don't feel I've got anything to prove to anyone. No one's opinion really matters to me apart from mine and the manager's. When I was younger, I had lots of social media. so it was like Twitter like Facebook all that and like what I would do is I would come in from a match and the second the manager I spoke I'd be like I'd type my name into Twitter and then I'd say what people were saying I was like when like there was so many good ones but there'd be one bad one and that would just affect us for the full time and I think look back now I was like what was I doing why do I care but you just you want that validation from people especially at a young age when I went from playing at Dalton to then like playing at Fulham like in the Premier League and stuff like it was class like everyone was like oh like it was doing so well like all this and then it starts going the other way and you're reading it and it was the best thing I ever did was coming away from from Twitter just to so like people couldn't get there do you know what I mean how damaging was that for you do you think when it was bad yeah really bad like mentally wise it was I was struggling mentally definitely I remember going to Fulham were really good I sort of went to them and said that I was like really low struggling I felt like I needed to speak to someone and they sort of put me in contact with sort of therapists and it didn't get better for a long time it was like sort of years but like now I've got the tools to deal with that sort of stuff when I've got that experience of like yeah I'm knowing I can deal with that I'd love to can we talk about this yeah yeah because I think there's still this tendency particularly as men right to talk a bit in riddles we just got I felt a bit low didn't quite feel myself you know things weren't quite right I don't think that does service to other people who are struggling because they then go well maybe I'm just low maybe I'm am I depressed and then they feel confused and they don't speak out would you share with us when you say I felt low like how did you really feel so like I probably didn't realise why I was feeling all the time so we'd had like stuff going on with family like my parents had split up which affected us more than I probably realised it did because like I was trying to be the sort of strong person and keep everything together and support my brother and my parents as it was going on but I was also like living away from home and in Birmingham and having that pressure of trying to, I was playing, still playing with fear.

1:01:56So I was like, you're just like, oh, I need to prove myself at this level, but like, I'm not playing well. And then having all that go on, do you know what I mean? I feel like it does sort of snowball. And I had like, I had an incidence where like, I was playing for Follum and I went to clear a ball and I smashed my head off the floor. And like, in reality now, looking back, it was probably concussion. But then like, I'd, because I was in such a place, I'd actually, I convinced myself that like, I was ill. So I convinced myself that I had like a brain tumour just because I'd hit my head and it was because I couldn't prove that theory wrong.

1:02:29It just snowballed and I ended up going and getting like, I went to Harley Street and got like brain scans and they were like, no, you've not got a brain tumour. But I didn't believe them. So then I would go somewhere else and do it. So, did you have headaches or something? Yeah, just like headaches and I laugh about it now, but at the time, like, so like I'd fallen asleep and like I'd woken up and because I'd fell asleep on my arm, like I must have just obviously the only girl is dead. But I went to pick my arm and I couldn't do it and like now like looking back I'm like yeah obviously you fell asleep on your arm but at the time I was in such a place that I was like hyper fit I was like wow there's something wrong like I can't fix that and then like now to look back on it it seems silly but at the time it was like you're in that's in my head constantly playing and playing and playing and then I'm at Fulham and not playing well and I'm low about that and playing I'm sat by myself in the house and that's constantly going on in my head and you don't want to admit that you need help so like when I'm sat there in my flat and me missus has gone out of work so she leaves in the morning at 6 and doesn't come back in at 8 and I'm getting trained at 3 so I'm sat there 5 hours by myself just these thoughts in my head constantly Did you tell her?

1:03:32I did but not till later on I bet it took you a while Yeah I admit it at Fullerman's stuff first for me personally anyway I didn't want people to worry about us so to speak about someone who was disconnected from me every day and I could speak about them openly about it but then I didn't have my wife at work thinking like oh I wonder how he's doing is he alright or my mum wasn't back home thinking but like in a bad place I would like turn up to Fulham I remember turning up to a Fulham game one time and I was in the car park and I was like rang my mum just like bursting at tears I was like how long am I going to feel like this like this is horrific when you say feel like this what can you describe the feeling anxiety just like my chest like just could not concentrate and like just in my head all the time and it's like such a horrible feeling like but you don't understand why your brain's doing that mate I've been there and what was the catalyst to go and speak to somebody then yeah I think it just got the point where I was like I need to speak to someone yeah like I'm struggling like this is going like this is going the wrong way like like sort of having like suicidal thoughts like really struggling do you know what I mean and then thinking like I need to speak to someone and know why I'm feeling like this like what is it what's triggering it and you obviously because you're so consumed with yourself even like half the stuff when I said the stuff out loud when I got a therapy I thought like what am I even thinking here like but in your head it just seems so heavy do you know what I mean but then they give you things so like you were saying therapists would say like that your brain just likes to wants to know the answer to everything so like sometimes what's in your head that doesn't mean it's true but your brain's trying to like just find out why you're feeling like that and you just start believing that do you know what I mean and then like there was like you said I was like quite self-destructive do you know what I mean so I'd always like if something was happening I'd always like think yeah I know but it's not going to go well something's going to happen and like you couldn't just be happy.

1:05:20But now like I've got a little bit, so like some days I might wake up and think, oh, I feel a bit anxious today. And then it's like, yeah, but why? Or like I was out last night, had a few drinks. Yeah, yeah. So that's probably why. Or like I'm not sleeping well. Like, yeah, that's probably why. And you don't let like a bad day become a bad week, become a bad month. You sort of like notice it, learn what you've learned. You feel as if you're the only person who's going through that at that time. And the reality is, is that like, you've probably got something going on. You've probably got going something on.

1:05:47But like we deal with it in different ways and like until you speak about it and realize that everybody has that like you think that's it and that's like probably the weight on your shoulders Look, huge credit for talking about it I think it's really powerful and it's those early days you know from my own experience where the loneliness is insane isn't it because you can't wait to go to sleep because you can finally be free from having these thoughts swimming around in your head but then you wake up in the middle of the night and the bed's wet because of panic do you remember that? And your wife or my girlfriend at the time was like why is the bed why are you sweating so much and you're just like I've got a fever or something and then you wake up in the morning and the thoughts are back in your head and those suicidal thoughts they come kind of from just the need to be free of this feeling definitely because it is how exhausted were you from the constant mental overload absolutely shattered and like I can like understand why I was in the place I was in but it's just so like draining like constantly draining like as you said like those are the worst bits like in the night like I remember the therapist saying like don't believe anything that you tell yourself in the middle of the night because like that must be like the time when people take their life most is like those sort of hours in the morning where it's like you feel as if there isn't any way that you're comfortable and then you wake up and you think I've got through another night do you know what I mean but it's like I feel like those hours are the hardest because like everybody's like asleep and you're just like lying there awake like trying to like What stopped you from doing it in those really difficult periods?

1:07:10Yeah family life so having my daughter changed my life completely like I say this like that should save my life but like Not in the way where I feel as if I would have took that, but as in just your perspective changes. You realize that I'm here for you. Do you know what I mean? You always feel as if at the start, and I was going through, it was all self-consumed. I've said this as well about when I'm doing charity work or anything like that. I was like, I'm not doing that. I want to be a footballer. I'm not got time to do that. Do you know what I mean? And then in reality, you think, yeah, it's great, but it's not the be all and end all.

1:07:42My kids couldn't care less whether I played football or push trolleys NASDAH or did what? They're just like buzzing to see us and I think that just like give us a focus and realise that yeah football's great but once I come home And where in your mental health journey was your daughter born? As I was probably coming towards like I was getting better So you were having therapy Yeah so I was having therapy so that was good so I think I'd been released from Fulham I'd had sort of a season at Wigan where I was still struggling because I had zero confidence like really struggling and then when I found out like my wife was pregnant it was like best day of my life how much did your mental health challenges affect your ability to do your job yeah like loads just not being able to just perform the way that you you wanted to perform do you know what I mean like just like as I was playing football football was sort of me released because as I was out and training playing the games I didn't think about anything at all because like you can't like you're too busy focused and then the second that the final whistle went I could just feel that like weight like back on us and like it was just like constant do you know what I mean and when you're in that You'd never feel like you're going to get out of it.

1:08:46It's such a horrible feeling, but you do. You do just from doing stuff. That is the best point you've made. When you're in that place that you're in, you never feel you will not be in that place. No, never. And I think that's an important thing for people to understand. There'll be people watching this now who have got overwhelming thoughts. I just had thoughts that I was just going to do crazy stuff. And it's a horrible feeling because you believe it. Oh, 100%. And there'll be people now thinking, I'm broken, I can't be mended like Dan was, or Jake was, or anyone else that's been through therapy been at a difficult time but I think it's a very important message that you can be so low you know laying awake at night wondering if you should still be here then you can get to this place yeah and I think that's like helped us as well like I I take it back like I've always feel as if like not like I had doubt as or I wanted to push myself I feel like if like if I've managed to get through that this is nothing every challenge that's ever hit is I felt as if I've been able to overcome and I like I think that just gives you confidence that all right I can do that I can do that are you now glad you had those that period yeah definitely same I'm happy I'm happy that I've come out don't get us wrong at the time it's horrific do you know what I mean but as in I'm glad I've had that experience and I think it makes us more like empathetic towards people so you have a bad interaction with someone it's like yeah but like imagine having a bad day and you've described the inner turmoil really powerfully there Dan and thank you for that what would anyone have seen externally and I'm thinking of it more from the perspective of if there's anyone that wants to be more empathetic and spot a colleague that might run for a tough time what would people have seen you from you?

1:10:14Isolation probably I think that's a like a big thing of it not um not so much just like being in the house all the time but like not really having the energy to like make effort with people because you don't want to have to like speak about how you're feeling because you sometimes when you're feeling that way you don't want to speak about it because then the second people start talking about it it gets you ticking again do I mean and then even um like in training just like quite like emotional responses to stuff like I didn't like I wasn't the best version of myself then so like if I wasn't playing I was like like when I was at Fulham like towards the end like oh I didn't care if I won or lost do you know what I mean I just wanted to I wanted to play like regardless whether how the team was doing I was like no I should be playing like and just like having that like quite a response I wouldn't have now do you know what I mean like on the pitch if a decision didn't go against us I would just like kick off and like do it and it's not often against like whoever was doing it, but it was just like how I was feeling at the time.

1:11:09It was just so like I was on edge constantly. Whereas like now, I would hope that that's not the case. And you will be in a dressing room now with players who've got mental health challenges. There's no doubt about it. You know, it's particularly in your world where you have, you know, people who hold themselves to high standards. It will be the case. So as well as looking out for danger signs from other people, what do you now find is the best way to have a conversation with someone just to see how they are really doing rather than just that surface level stuff. Yeah, I think it is like, it's easy to just say to someone like, you all right, man, how are you?

1:11:41And they go like, yeah, yeah, not bad. And then leave it. But like, just like things that you, like you see if you notice things that I'm talking about, it's like actually like sitting and have that conversation with them, like not just being superficial, like thinking like, oh, I'll not text them. Like just like send the text. And like, that might be the thing that like makes them speak to you, do you know what I mean? Like just like check in with them every so often. And I feel like, yeah, like for me, like how I best deal with that now is like I've got like a process of how I build through my week and like you would call them probably superstitions really but as in like if like if I feel as if I do these things like the result will sort of take care of itself so like I do this now and if I have a bad game I'm like right well I've had a bad game I did everything I could to prepare properly for that game and sometimes you're just like I played against Harlem like you scored a hat-rack like sometimes that's just the way it is but if I've done that then like I don't look at myself and think no you should have done more like you should have prepared better you should have done this.

1:12:37And did anyone ever reach out to you when you were in the depths of despair? Yeah, so I had like, I remember speaking like Lee Clark was like the first manager I spoke to about it. And like he'd had like a similar situation with his family and stuff. So he was always quite good at like sort of checking in to see how I was when I was playing there and stuff. And it was probably just more like, I didn't really tell friends and stuff. It was more just family sort of checking in. And then as I said, I'd had therapy and I haven't had therapy for like a long time. Do you know what I mean? I feel as if I got what I needed out of it.

1:13:08But I would have no problems going back to it if I felt as if I needed it. Do you know what I mean? I feel like the moment that you speak and feel as if you're getting that off your chest and admitted that you need it, the weight off my shoulders that someone else knew about it would help. But I know I'm specific. It was probably just more people checking in. But I said it's that same one when you tell family, sometimes it has the opposite effect because you don't want them to worry about you all the time. And you feel as if on the phone when you're on the phone with them, you're waiting for them to ask because they're like, when they're speaking, they're like, oh, how are you doing?

1:13:39Like, I was training and you're like, you're waiting for them to see how you react before they ask and sometimes you think like, I don't want that. I don't want you to see us like that. I just want you to have a conversation with us. It's interesting. We spoke to Ben Fogle, you know, the adventurer and he described he had a wobble and he was like, if I broke my leg, nobody keeps asking about your broken leg once it's fixed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But sometimes people assume that you're fragile having gone through a bit of a mental health challenge. Can you? Do you know what I mean? It's like one of them things, like if you brought your leg, like I can see, right, what's broken?

1:14:09I need to fix it. But like you can't like see these problems. I think for someone like you, that's almost the scariest element of a mental health challenge is you've lived a life where you pull a hamstring, someone goes, that's the rehabilitation and it's going to take this amount of time. Suddenly you are injured, right? Yeah. But you're injured with an injury that you can't see, you can't really explain. Yeah. An injury that's super scary, an injury that carries with it quite a lot of stigma. Yeah. An injury that in your world is a hard thing to admit. An injury that would be all over the papers if you spoke about it at the time, it builds up to be so difficult and then you've then got this added layer of people going, well, why would a football have a mental health problem?

1:14:46Yeah, that was the thing. It was like, obviously I'd just played like Premier League football with following me. I was like, how am I feeling like this? Which makes it worse. Yeah, definitely. Because you can't understand. Totally, but I feel like mental health is not a thing. It doesn't discriminate anyone. Do you know what I mean? It affects everyone and just because someone's doing so successfully or not, it doesn't mean that it should like make a difference about it. It's more just like, I feel like the more that we'll have these conversations and people say it and like, I don't feel as if it makes, is weak for admitting that.

1:15:15Do you know what I mean? Like it should never do that. Like it's anything. It's like, I feel like stronger than people that I can, that we can talk about this and like still feel like you can, you're open to do that. Do you talk about it at work? Like if they had to talk about mental health, then actually. I'm not that like you would sit around the table and talk about it, but like if people asked us about it, I would be free. to speak about I mean I would never like hide it I mean I think obviously people don't always know that about you but that's what I'm it goes back to like those things like when we're doing like timelines and all that I think like seeing what like what makes people tick and having that vulnerability I think brings people Did you mention it in your timeline?

1:15:54Yeah yeah I spoke about it yeah so not as in depth as this because we're 10 minutes do you know what I mean? So I'm looking at my time I'm hoping I don't cross the 10 minutes Did anyone ask you questions about it? Yeah Because obviously that's a telltale sign if someone's got their own struggles they'll often ask they just won't go yeah yeah and like spread about not as like in depth as we're speaking about now but they'll like say oh so like who did you see or what did you do and like a lot of the lads now have got like sports psychologists they speak to regularly like after training before training and stuff but I feel like when I was younger I would like I couldn't not think about football like it was constant and it like took over my life like more like nutrition like no I can't eat that can't do this can't do that whereas now I feel as if I'm in a I've got quite good balance where like when I'm at training I am 100 % at training so like I'll do whatever I need to do in the gym like I'll do like leave like no stone unturned like you probably when I'm at home like I'm at home so like and it's hard to get that balance sometimes because it's still hard to be present like I'll be sat with the kids sometimes and I'll not be with the kids I'll be thinking like alright so I've got this tomorrow or how do I do that or I'll be like looking at something like on my phone but I like I feel as if like I'm quite good at like I've done everything I can there like when I'm at home like don't get us wrong like I still try and eat well and sleep well and do all that but I try to just be with the family and how do you make that transition?

1:17:11yeah it's hard because I feel like when you're coming up like it's an imbalance isn't it like it's got to be an imbalance to get the level that people want to be at there has to be some sort of imbalance like you can't balance everything like it's impossible but like as I've gotten all that I think as I said I don't I work more on instincts than analysis as in like I'll not say we play we play Man City and I'm playing against Haaland like I'm not watching loads and loads of clips on Haaland because I've played against him four times like I feel as if like I know I know what he does and I feel better just like living off my instincts rather than looking and like looking for tells what he's going to do I feel as if like I'm working better at that but when I was a kid like I would sit and I'd watch clips for hours like on people and you second guess yourself like But does that not feel a little bit scary because that's worked for you to get you this far you know like now to let go of that and rely on your experience.

1:18:04A little bit, but I think that probably goes back to like sort of the mental health thing. Like I feel like I probably fed into it a little bit. Just from my, I'm not saying that works for everyone, but I'm just saying this is what works for me where like it was too much. Yeah. It was too much. Like there was no time to switch off from it. It was too much. Whereas now I feel like, listen, I'm playing against these people regularly. Like if we play against someone I've never played against before, I'll probably watch a few clips because like you want to be able to see it. Do you know what I mean?

1:18:27Or like I'll be watching Match of the Day and you'll see it but I'll not sit and watch it whereas like a lot of the time now I feel like I've played against these lads three or four or five times you know the strengths like you've just got to go like right how will I react you've learned to protect yourself which I think is brilliant before we move on there will a lot of footballers watch other footballers write on podcasts and I'm sure there'll be a young footballer or even a not young footballer watching this anxious about talking to someone at their club about the fact they are struggling with their mental health because of the stigma what would you want them to hear from you?

1:18:59Yeah, I would say just do it. It's the hardest thing you'll ever do, but it's the best thing you'll ever do. Just admitting that it's okay to need help. Especially now, I think it's changed from when I first started playing to now clubs are better set up for it. Everyone will have a sports psychologist. They'll have someone that they can go to. There's so many different things you can do. Sporting Chance came in the other day. When you're seeing the amount of footballers that are getting in contact with Sporting Chance compared to what we're at the start. I feel like it's a lot more sort of open now.

1:19:32And like, it's, yeah, I would just, anyone who's feeling like that, I would just encourage to be open about. And do you remember that sense of relief when you've told someone for the first time? Yeah. Isn't it the best feeling? And like, every time I went to therapy and like knowing that like, I could get this off my chest that I was like feeling with and someone like would be there and they weren't judging us, they were just listening. Like giving me a little point as like, Like, this is why you feel like this. And go, oh, yeah, of course. Like, yeah, that makes sense. Like, so much sense. But you can't work that out in your head because you're consumed with it.

1:20:03Was your first session not just an hour of crying? Pretty much, yeah. Just like an hour of like, and I was just like spieling at them about all sorts. They just literally say why you're here, don't they? And it's like... Yeah. This and this and this. And like, probably the reality was that everything I said for the first hour wasn't really why I was there. It was then when we got in like the third or fourth session and then like, oh, right, okay, yeah. But like, that's what you feel like the reason that you're is there. And did you ever manage to work out why it happened? Yeah, I think it was probably, it was a mixture of a few things.

1:20:31But I think some of it was probably family related and some of it was football related. And they sort of bounced off each other and did not go well with each other. And I think that was why now. And you still get obviously things that are trigger, but I notice them now, which I didn't then. And you just sort of keep them all, thing that well. So sometimes I'll just be sat at home and something happens and go, I feel a bit anxious today with my wife where like I wouldn't have done that 10-12 years ago you would just like deal with it and then we'll speak about it and then we'll be like oh yeah like yeah that's probably why but it's good though because it helps like that sort of thing like we've got a we've got a very good relationship with my wife and stuff like that like we're quite open about talking about things and like why we're feeling like that and I think it just brought a lot closer together Do you mind if I just ask you briefly about your relationship because I think you and your wife are on an interesting journey aren't you you met at 16 and you've been through the ups and downs of a life in sport.

1:21:24How has your relationship stayed the same and how has it changed? Yeah, I think it's just been a lot better at communicating, I would say. Like from like, obviously we were kids when we got there, we were 16, do you know what I mean? So I went like off down to Fulham to play and Ros went to university at Leicester. Dealing with that like sort of a long distance relationship you're having and also trying to like be a professional footballer as well, do you know what I mean? And then her moving down to London and then she was upset when we left London because she didn't want to, she worked in London so she didn't want to leave London when I went to Wigan but it's just probably that appreciation that I've got for her that she's sort of not given up on her dreams but like she's sort of put herself in the back seat so that I can fulfil mine and sort of having that appreciation for her that she's done that and we've got a great family and sort of a good balance between she's not massive into football so it's not where I come home and we're talking about football for her she couldn't really care less she was with us when I was at ASDA so if I was still, nothing against waiting at ASDA but if I was at Azza now like I still believe she would be with us do you know what I mean so it's like it's nice that I don't have anything like surrounding that it's just very good and I feel like we are better at communicating as we're getting older and like if something happens like we'll we'll speak about it and it's done rather than just like letting it all build up and then sort of like getting in a big up with each other don't get us wrong it happens do you know what I mean of course it does but like we are better at that do you fear the end of your career or are you excited about all the time you'll have to spend with Roz and do things you've not been able to do I think I feel like I brought me back a couple of years back and I had sort of like seven or eight weeks out and I loved it.

1:22:55Like not having that pressure of like every day having to like do the standards that you get to and like spend more time with her and like more time with the kids and stuff when they were off. And I really enjoyed it. But I also know that I'm very routine based. So like in the off season, like I struggled quite a bit as in because I haven't got that routine of like, this is where you're meant to be. This is what you're doing. All that. like you're on holiday and stuff like that like I struggle a little bit with that so I feel as if when I finish playing I'm still going to need to have that routine and do something and be focused I'm not someone who's just going to be able to like right that's it like I'm just not going to do anything for the next over many years Right ready for our quick fire questions to finish off with

1:23:39The three non-negotiable behaviours that you think are most important So for me right now I've said consistency I've said balance although that obviously changes as you go up and resilience if you could go back to one moment in your life Dan what would it be and why? I would go back to my childhood I think I'd want to go back to my childhood and like do everything again do you know what I mean but like I really like I loved my childhood I loved like being around my parents and my friends and just loved football I just like that it's not very quick for you but not like when you get into football you realise that it isn't what you see when you're away from it do you know what I mean it's very like cutthroat and all that whereas like just like the thought of being a footballer or the kid at that age is just like the dream of it is amazing and if you could have 30 seconds with that 11 year old Dan who's just arrived home from being told by Newcastle that it's not going to happen for him what would you tell him?

1:24:31I'd tell him just to keep going don't stop no matter what anyone tells you what's the single best piece of advice you've ever received and why? probably very cliche but like you you get out of life what you put into it so I try to do that in everything that I do in my life whether it's with my wife whether it's with my kids whether it's with football I really feel as if that's the case where the more that I can put into something the more you get out of it What would you like to leave people thinking about after this incredibly wide-ranging conversation that's gone from the sadness of being released and struggling as a young player to a much greater sadness of mental health challenges to the highs of having kids getting married still being with your childhood sweetheart winning trophies playing for your country it's like your high performance has been so varied over the years.

1:25:17So what would you leave people thinking about in terms of your ultimate lesson for living a high-performance life? My life has just been built on resilience. And I don't mean like the way that I was brought about a very, very good childhood, but it's like the ability to keep going forward when you get knockbacks. I think that's like the big thing that I've sort of taken from your life. No matter what happens, I always feel as if I'm going to prove people wrong and keep pushing forward. and I feel that's a reflection of my career Brilliant Dan thank you so much Thank you very much

1:25:53Damien Big Dan Byrne What do you think of it? What a hero what a legend I love the fact that he was able to open up about the challenges at Fulham and I think what's lovely is that he you know he says that he still gets moments of anxiety I think it's a powerful thing for a current Premier League footballer to say when they've just been called up to the England squad when they've just won their first major trophy at Newcastle when things look so outwardly perfect for him he's like I still wake up sometimes and feel anxious and he's learnt the tools to deal with that I just thought it was great I really really like him as a person as well as that's what I think he's a great footballer how about you?

1:26:28Yeah I loved it I think again it's a real privilege to sit in this chair and listen to somebody that's been on a journey like he has come and share that so freely so openly and candidly you know telling us the highs and the lows that I think, whether you like football or not, anyone can learn something from Dan's incredible story. But also, like, he took us right into Thomas Tuchel's phone call. Took us into the dressing room before the League Cup final. He took us into those struggles at Fulham. He took us into that guy who was moving trolleys around it, a 16-year-old at Asda. Like, he's also a great storyteller and a great scene setter.

1:27:03Like, I really felt I kind of understood his life, you know? Yeah, but, you know, I'd play that to any young person and just say that, you know, where you're from isn't necessarily where you're at. I think, you know, his story of resilience and perseverance and just backing yourself, even in spite of the odds, is something that every one of us can take away and apply in our own world. And he's a great dancer. Is he? Oh, yeah. Thanks, mate. Thank you. Well, huge thanks to Dan for his candour and his courage in sharing moments that shaped him. If you were affected by any of the topics in today's conversation, please check out the show notes to see where you can go for help.

1:27:41And if you want more from Newcastle United, Kieran Trippier, Eddie Howe, Callum Wilson, they've all been on the show. And don't forget, finally, if you valued this episode, please follow High Performance so you can stay bang up to date. Or even better, download the High Performance app from the App Store. We'll see you soon.

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