David Attenborough’s BBC Mammals Producers: What nature’s high performers can teach us (E251)

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance App. Available now, Roman Kemp, the broadcaster, opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health. Davant was an incredibly humble man. As someone who basically defined a genre, he has had an amazing career. And the first time I met him, I swear to God, time stood still. We found this male polar bear, which was extraordinary in itself. and we're sat there filming it with the snowmobiles pretty close by. But this polar bear, you know, it's up on its legs. It's checking us out. And suddenly it starts coming towards us. And suddenly there's that moment where it's like, oh my God, it's looking at us like we're prey.

0:42So that is Roger and Harry from the brand new BBC natural history show, Mammals. And you're listening to High Performance. So today is really interesting, actually. This is a slightly different episode, not something that we've done before. and I want you to come with us on this journey. I want you to trust us when it comes to this conversation because we are celebrating Sir David Attenborough's brand new series with a chat about what we can learn from some of the most incredible mammals on the planet. But we're also going to talk about how the amazing BBC team that produce these incredible shows chase high performance themselves.

1:20How do they end up in that industry? How do they push the boundaries of what's possible to try and bring you such compelling television? What do they have to do to dig deep themselves to make sure that they deliver for their audience? It's a really interesting conversation. So let's get to it and welcome Roger and Harry from the BBC's brand new Mammal series to High Performance. And before we do, a quick word from our sponsors who allow us to give you this content absolutely free.

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3:55Harry, Roger, thank you so much for joining us for High Performance. Let's start with what you believe High Performance to be from the things you've seen by studying mammals with the work that you've done. What would you go for? Well, animals at their best. I mean, survivor of the fittest, you know, it sort of sums it up, doesn't it? To survive in nature, Every day you've got to be at your best. You know, you don't get a second chance. So that's high performance. You know, when you're seeing a cheetah and it's not fed for three or four days and it's got to make that kill today, otherwise it's going to starve.

4:27It's got to be at its best. You know, you're not going to get a gift-wrapped delivery package of, you know, nicely fresh seasoned gazelle. You've got to hunt that down and get it. And to do that, you've got to be your best. So you've got to perform at a very high level. Yeah, totally. I think the stakes are always highest in nature. There's no second takes. And, you know, animals are just beautifully adapted to their purpose and each one of them is just designed to be at the high performance at all time and then for us i was going to say in terms of filmmakers we've got to then be at our best to capture that on film we we have to mirror the high performance we're observing yeah so what have you observed then that gives you the evidence or the reasoning for why mammals are the ones that have conquered the earth so mammals are a really unique group of animals in that they just have this amazing adaptability.

5:16They're often very intelligent, you know, we're mammals, undeniable that we've conquered the Earth. But also mammals have really conquered every habitat on Earth with their adaptations, with their unique characteristics. Some of them have developed superpowers, supersonic hearing, echolocation, the ability to see in the dark, to communicate underwater. You know, they've really pushed the boundaries of what's possible in nature. Yeah. Bats are a great example. I think people like to overlook bats. In fact, people get quite creeped out by bats. But nearly a quarter of all mammals are bats. So there's like 1 ,500 different bat species.

5:54There's 6 ,000 mammals on Earth. It's the species of mammals. There's 1 ,500 of them bats. But those bats are so highly developed and so highly tuned for what they do. They're operating in pitch black, pitch dark, and flying around, not bumping into things, and using this superpower, this echolocation, to catch their prey. And that can be, we've got bats fishing in the series, which is extraordinary. And echolocation's extraordinary, but it doesn't penetrate through water. So it bounces off the water. So what they're waiting for is a fin of a fish to break the water. So when they're sending their signal, it will hit that fin and then they will, yeah.

6:32Extraordinary, yeah. It's kind of jaw-dropping, brilliant, high performance. Yeah, but people don't think about bats, but they're extraordinary. Yeah, totally. and they're perfectly designed for what they do. Give us another one, Harry. I mean, because this is fascinating. This is what I love, though, because we are walking around on the earth, surrounded by miracles, right? Left, right and centre. But we're not taking our hands and our eyes off our phones or off our immediate family or off our immediate issues to actually realise the magic that's all around us. I mean, hyenas, Harry, you filmed hyenas.

7:03They're extraordinary, aren't they? Yeah, hyenas are amazing, and they often get a really bad rep. You know, I grew up thinking of hyenas kind of like in The Lion King, as these cackling underlings of the bad guy. But actually, they're incredibly intelligent, madly social. Their social bonds are really what make them super, super successful. And they're a female-led society, which is pretty cool. When we went to film them, it was really incredible to see them at their best because they're pretty cool to watch in the day, But we really wanted to see them in their most extreme situation, which is at night.

7:41So we used specialist cameras, thermal cameras, to be able to film them in the pitch black. In this amazing location, the Ngongonga Crater, which is in Tanzania, it's like a dormant caldera, volcano. Huge, huge area, about twice the size of Bristol, about the same size as Birmingham, which is where I'm from. Enormous place. But yeah, we were looking for hyenas in there and seeing what they were getting up to at night, hoping for something like a hunt. And just to see them kind of band together in the dark and really use their manpower, the sheer numbers to overwhelm something was like totally incredible and unbelievable and not really something that I expected to get, to be honest.

8:27But it's the strategy, isn't it? It's the strategy, yeah. They have a den where they all hang out in the day, all super chilled looking after the pups and stuff. And then as night begins to creep in, they will go out in different directions, individuals. So scouting. So then it's up to which scout will find what they're looking for. So a scout will maybe find a buffalo and think, oh, I'm going to have a sniff around that buffalo. But that hyena is never going to take that buffalo down on its own. So what it does, it puts its head to the ground. It does this incredible call like this. Like this, and it bounces off the ground.

8:54This is a theory, this is what it does. So it's echoing like that. And that call can spread for three miles. So all those other hyenas that have gone out on that scouting mission... Can hear them, yeah. Okay, guys. And then they all start trucking towards the... Yeah, totally. And they're all piling, and suddenly from one hyena, there's now 50 hyenas. All on the case now, bringing this buffalo down. It's extraordinary, the strategy, the sophistication. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. So as two people that have studied mammals and the species in general, what are the lessons that you think human mammals can learn from them?

9:32I mean watching mammals, the parenting is extraordinary isn't it? Yeah the parenting is extraordinary and it's interesting because it's probably also mammals' greatest weakness is that in order to develop young which is quite well adapted and advanced in terms of animals it requires a lot of parental care so it's a lot of investment to raise a young mammal really relatively to other species. and so the parenting the level of parenting among mammals is extraordinary like the parental care that you see is next level learning is really important in the mammalian world I filmed elephants learning routes to find food and that's something that's really key to learn like where you can find the best food what you're doing and where the best areas are to find seasonal food and in this situation it's really interesting because actually the elephants had learned that one of the best places to find food was in people's gardens in the town, right?

10:28People have built a town on your doorstep. It's a great place to go and find a snack. But in order to not be detected, because most people don't like elephants walking around their gardens, they had to sneak into the town at night. So then this mother elephant was teaching its family the best routes into the town, how to go in at night so you don't get detected, where to find the good food at different times of year. And it was really incredible just to watch and it was really a privilege to be able to experience that with them and see, like, you know, a mother elephant break up a really hard food for a baby elephant and watch them try.

11:06They're trying to whip this little branch around like the mum and copy them. It's really amazing to, like, see it in action. Watch them try to learn how to use their trunk is extraordinary. Yeah, exactly. 12 ,000 muscles in a trunk is something ridiculous. Are they born able... No, it's like flipping around. They're born and they can't use their legs. They're born like babies, yeah. So most mammals are born able to stand, especially if they're prey species. Yeah, they're going to get nailed. But other than that, there's a lot to learn. And obviously the more intelligent animal, the more there is to learn.

11:36So yeah, elephants are born unable to really use their trunk. It's a really highly specialised limb. And so they flap it around like a little wet noodle. This must be quite humbling, right? Because I think that one of the mistakes we make as humans is by thinking that we've got everything figured out and we are the super spirit. And in many ways, you can argue that because we are at the very top, right? But our babies are born pretty useless. Yeah. And I wonder whether if we had to evolve as they have out in the wilds, whether our babies would be born different now. Because you couldn't do that, could you, if you were the mum of a little monkey?

12:14It wouldn't be possible for that monkey to be born and just for the first six months sit on the ground and do nothing. I think it's an interesting point. Human babies are pretty useless. I hope I'm not offending anyone by saying that. We all were one once. Yeah, exactly. But the whole kind of floppy head thing and just helpless little things. They can't even crawl. They can't even crawl. So as humans, if we were suddenly dumped in the wild without all the garb and stuff that we have in our lives today, we would not be very successful, I don't believe. or we'd have to have a high degree of protection for our human babies that somehow allows us to raise them over here whilst we can go out and hunt together, I suppose.

12:52And I think this is what happened and why society and community is so important to humanity and is an important part of our evolution is that this idea that our young are so vulnerable that really they need round-the-clock care and that has to be shared among people. Because when you see primates, which is the closest relative to us, I mean, those babies are hanging on, aren't they, to their mums. They're able to grip, basically. And that's what allows them, I think, to succeed and grow in the wild and grow up. But there was another theme I wanted to explore with you around mums because having been around elite sport a long time, lots of sports coaches use metaphors from your world.

13:33You know, at Saracens Rugby Club, they talk about the Wolf Pack. I've worked with some teams that admire the African hunting dogs because they've got the biggest kill ratio. And I'm interested in what you've learned from your study of mammals that we can relate to working in teams or in groups more effectively. Well, again, if they don't get teamwork right, they're not going to survive. So it's all about communication. I mean, again, those hyenas are a great example, in my opinion. The way they understand each other's role. They have, also say within a wolf pack, you have clear leadership. There's an alpha male and that guy is in charge and everyone has to get into line, you know, and is it quite dictatorial?

14:14In some ways it is. You don't argue with that alpha unless you want to get some backlash. You're going to get it. But again, it's a tough world out there. You know, it's not a game. So, you know, in terms of sport analogies, I suppose if you're going to succeed, you've got your captain on the pitch and the guys need to listen to him. And if they don't listen to him, he's probably going to give them a mouthful, you know, And maybe that clarity is what you need, and that's what makes you successful. But in a world like that, how does an alpha become an alpha then? It's a very good question. Sometimes you can see in cubs, when they're born, say, within a lion pride, there'd be one that's just a little bit bigger.

14:49He's got a little bit more attitude. And he would have had the bloodline that's come down from the pride male, if you like. So that pride male's in charge of the pride. So for whatever reason, he's a bit more spiky. He's a bit more authoritative. if he's a bit more in charge and the other cubs are a bit more perhaps laid back and a bit more playful. Yeah, they can be. I mean, like hyena pups, for example, they start fighting for dominance within a few days of being born. So in the den, they're already fighting. When you see them, people think they're playing. They're not playing. It's serious.

15:19This is all about who's going to end up as the future queen of this group. And it's determined really, really early on for them. So every second counts, really, as soon as they're out. I mean, one will rise up and you'll just see the dominance straight away. And is there a difference between female and male-led cultures? That's a big question. I mean, yeah, there is. There's obviously differences. But a lot of them come down to the same thing, I suppose. It's all about who's the best individual for the job. So in Orca, intelligence is really key. and so I guess it's a bit irrelevant. In the hyenas, it's actually the females that are bigger, they're physically bigger, and they also developed a special organ called the pseudopenis that gives them another edge on their tails.

16:19You can't remember. It's quite furious. I thought a term like that in casualty. This is the mammal. Yeah. It's one of the weirder mammalian facts, but female hyenas have an enlarged clitoris and it's just a symbol of dominance. And they use it to signal dominance to each other and to socially interact. You know, it's a bit weird. Yeah, there's a lot of sniffing. Yeah, when two hyenas meet each other, they'll sniff each other's genitalia. That's how you say hi in hyena. Okay. And that will tell them a lot about that individual and their social standing. They get right down to it very quickly. There's no small talk.

16:56it's just I'm from Norfolk it's very similar this is I think this is so interesting because again coming back to this idea that we're all walking around kind of almost blind to this stuff like you two we'll talk about your reasons for wanting to do this in a moment but you know you have had such a privilege to be so close to these mammals that most people will never get that close to and we'll talk about the advent of technology as well because I think that's fascinating that you know our children can now see a closeness to the animal kingdom that just wasn't available to us, you know, 30, 40 years ago.

17:31I'd love to know what you've seen. Not only that it's just the thing that has blown you away where you've just gone, I can't believe what I've just witnessed here, but also the thing that you've thought, why don't we live like that? This makes total sense. Why are humans messing around with these old ideas? Why are we not learning this from the mammalian world? I mean... That's a good question. I mean, I think it's a bit weird, but I filmed chimpanzees building nests for the mammal series we made. It opens a dark show. It's a beautiful little sequence. But in order to do that, in order to be where they were, so chimpanzees build a new nest every single night, sleep in nests kind of like a bed like we do in the tree, and they build a new one in a new place every single night.

18:16So in order to be there, when they build the nest, we had to follow them all afternoon. ready for when they build the nest. And just by following the group, you know, you start kind of like getting into the swing of being a chimpanzee. And it was kind of beautiful. They like have this amazing life where they like walk for kilometres and kilometres and kilometres. Not so fun when you're carrying loads of equipment in the sweaty African sun. But they do. And they're, you know, playing and they like find a tree that's fruiting and then they sit and they eat the fruit and then they just carry on. and it's like all very, like, beautiful.

18:54It's kind of back to basics as well, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. And I think they don't fuss and worry about a lot of the things that we worry about. Life's quite simple, but in a way they look kind of happier for it. Do you know what I mean? It's like they know exactly what they need to do and what they're doing. You know, they're being led. The kids are playing, having fun, frolicing around. Eventually it's going to get sort of dark and then they think about making their lovely beds. They sleep for as long as it's dark and that's what they do every night. and then they'll wake up when the sun rises and they'll start again.

19:21It's just very beautiful and, as I said, quite simple. But that's how we would have lived. That's how we would have lived. In many ways, we'd be a lot healthier probably if we did live like that. I'm reminded of, have you ever read the book 4 ,000 Weeks? And it opens with that, talking about until the Industrial Revolution, we had no concept of time. Time was literally when the sun went down and you went to bed. When you came up, you did it. It sounds very similar. Yeah, totally. And it's interesting you bring that up because I also thought the same thing when I read the book. And it's like the concept of time that we've created is almost like it's almost created a prison for us to exist in.

19:56Like now it feels like there's never enough of it because now we feel like it's a scarce resource. I love that bit of the parenting moment with the chimpanzees in the forest episode where the kids have kind of gone off and they found some bees nesting in sort of a low broken branch. And with bees you get honey. So you see the kids, if you like, they've got sticks and they're poking it into this beehive. Kids will be kids, right? Kids will be kids, you know, exactly. Chimp kids will be chimp kids. And, you know, they're getting kind of stung and bothered, but they really want this honey, don't they?

20:28You know, and the dad's sort of sat there almost with his arms crossed like, oh, for God's sake, you're so ridiculous and so pathetic. You've got a lot to learn. So rather than sort of get involved, he just allows them to like get stung. And then he wanders off and you think, what's he doing? And he goes over and he breaks a branch and he gets this big old stick and he's like, then he goes over to this little patch of ground and he's sort of sniffing about, poking it in the ground like this. And he's like, what is he doing? What is he doing? And eventually he finds a spot and he gets it in there and he pulls it up and he sniffs the end of it.

20:54He's like, yeah, that'll do. Puts his hand in, he pulls out a load of honey, doesn't he? And he just sits there eating this honey and suddenly the kids are like, oh, that's what we want. So then the kids come round and they're looking at Dad, aren't they? He's eating the honey and he just carries on eating it and the kids look at him like, please, Dad, can we just have a little bit? Please, Dad. And he just eats it, puts his hand back down, I guess I have a big lump. Oh, this is white, you know. Puts that in. Yummy, yummy. Puts his hand in, yeah. And the kids are like, please, you know, getting closer to him.

21:19She's almost like drooling. You know, give me some honey, give me some honey. And he just finishes what he wants and he wanders off. And they're all like, oh, great, here we go. Put their hand in. Oh, there's none left. You know? But he's wandered off and he's given them a bit of a lesson there, isn't he? You know? And he's like, oh, you're, you know. But anyway, it's just so delightful and charming and just, yeah. Powerful, I think. Delightful. Really powerful. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, let's talk then about your own journeys into this. Because, you know, you've got huge experience in this field.

21:4925? 28 now. 28 years. And, Harry? I'm more fresh. Just coming up to eight years now. Right. Well, let's talk then about, I think the first place to start is, why did you choose to live a life like this? I ask myself this every day. Joking. um i why did i choose to do this uh well so i i grew up in birmingham in the city and actually didn't have much contact with the natural world pets anything like that but just have always had this real obsession with animals always loved them always wanted to work closer than be close to them um and my passion for that really grew through watching wildlife documentaries to be watching like you know big david attenborough documentaries that kind of thing i burned out my copy of Blue Planet when I was a kid from watching it so many times.

22:42So that was really my way to connect with the natural world. And that really sparked a lifelong passion for me. I went on to study at uni and then I thought I was going to go into conservation, but ended up becoming an intern at the BBC. And then here we are. So yeah, I just really, because it really helped me kind of get in touch with my passion, I feel really strongly about communicating that to other people and giving people access to see those places and experience wildlife that they might not ever have the opportunity to do otherwise. And it's very nice to get to go and see that stuff myself.

23:17Yeah, amazing. Yeah, I think everyone's got their story. But for me, I grew up in a small town in the Cotswolds called Sirencester. As a kid, probably like a lot of kids, I loved TV, but never thought for one moment, you know, my dad was a car mechanic and my mum was a dinner lady. So working in television was not something that even entered my head. But I always then had a passion for the countryside, for nature. Always used to love just seeing animals, whatever, pets as well. Eventually that grew. I did sciences at school, did sciences at A-level, and then went to university and did an environmental science degree, which was quite broad, biology.

23:53And then I had friends at another university who were doing media arts, so they were making television. And I used to go down and help them make their films, do a bit of boom-opping and stuff. And then it suddenly dawned on me, can I marry this sort of passion and love for the natural world with television? And it was like, oh yeah, perhaps I can do that. So I wrote then begging letters to the BBC Natural History Unit, asking for an opportunity, work experience basically. And I graduated in the summer of 96 and they offered me a placement literally a week after. And I took that and I was working for nothing and then got offered a runner's contract and it's built from there really.

24:25So I've been at the BBC Natural History Unit now for 28 years. Have you ever had a moment where, given your obvious passion for the environment and nature, that you've had where it's taken your breath away, that you're actually present to witness it? Yeah, I mean, it happens to be every single time I go on location. I physically, genuinely pinch myself all the time on trips to work. And it's an incredible privilege to be in the position where I have to do that. Because some of the stuff that we've seen and I've seen has blown my mind. Like, I will never forget turning up in Ngongon Crater to film the hyenas for The Dark Upsid of Mammals.

25:05And it was my first experience in like an African safari type environment. And driving around there, it felt like being in The Lion King. You know, like, there was like giraffes and there was hippos and there was like birds flying through the sky and there was a lion and there was a hyena. and it like I was like what am I like what is going on but that was really incredible and then I had what at the time was quite a terrifying but actually very very magical moment with an elephant on mammals when we were filming we were filming at night in Victoria Falls which is a town in Zimbabwe right on the edge of a quite a few national parks so elephants come into the town at night sneakily in order to access food, right?

25:57People like water their lawns and grow food there. It's an amazing abundance for elephants and they've worked out, you know, used their intelligence to work out a way to come into the town and access this resource. But when you're filming an animal as big as an elephant in a space like a residential street, there suddenly isn't a lot of room for you. Imagine driving a four by four in like an alleyway, but the traffic trying to overtake you is a herd of elephants and suddenly you're like wow we're really close for comfort um and one particular night the matriarch of this family we've been following she got really interested in our car and she came right up to us right up to me it's an open-sided vehicle there's no doors windows or anything so it's just i'm sitting right there and she comes up as close as you are right now her whole head filled the side of the car like i couldn't say anything else she was enormous and she just like reached in and then tugged on my jacket and like my heart was all seen in my mouth I don't think I was breathing I was shaking um and she like came up smelt my face breathed in my face smell of an elephant's breath or something I never thought I would ever experience but amazing and I just like couldn't believe it she like walked away I was like oh my god you had a moment I was like physically shaking it was absolutely mental but also just an amazing connection like she looked right at me really she was you know a wild animal something that I've dreamt of seeing my whole life and it was just like extraordinary absolutely extraordinary wow what a lovely story I'm not sure I can follow that really yes you can No, I mean, we've been very fortunate.

27:43We've been to some incredible places. For me, one of the most powerful experiences was when I went to the Arctic to film polar bears. We had a bit of a tough time. The weather was bad. One of the snowmobiles went through the sea ice that we were travelling on because actually it was getting too warm. We had to camp out. We had to white out. 36 hours in a two-man tent with two guys about as big as you and I was the meat in the sandwich, you know. Anyway, the sun came up and, you know, eventually got on our way and then we found this male polar bear, which was extraordinary. itself and we're sat there filming it um with the snowmobiles pretty close by but this polar bear's you know it's up on its legs it's checking us out and suddenly it starts coming towards us and suddenly there's that moment where it's like oh my god it's looking at us like we're prey so suddenly we're being stalked by a polar bear and just seeing that animal doing what it's doing sniffing gradually coming towards you and it's got these eyes and basically all you can see those eyes they're black and um it's like you're a meal you know that's all it's thinking you're a meal and I'm going to, you know.

28:38So that was incredibly powerful and the only way we didn't kind of get munched was we had to start up the snowmobile which kind of freaked it out a bit. But the last thing we want to do is disturb anyone. But in that moment, we didn't really have a choice. But again, it's just incredibly humbling. And being in the Arctic, one of those places, the silence. I think this is where it gets really interesting, right? You are visitors in someone else's world at this point, right? You're no longer the top of the tree because you're not in our world. Yet you have to still find your own versions of high performance.

29:10You still have to create and produce content that is going to capture the imagination of millions of people. And by the way, congratulations, because the track record with your department is that you've proven you do it and you've ignited the imagination of millions of people over the years with it. So I'm really interested in how you as a group find high performance in those environments. What are the challenges and what are the moments when you have to rise to the challenge to deliver. I mean, planning is always key, isn't it? Yeah, preparation is absolutely essential. For real. Yeah, you can't just roll the dice and hope it's all just going to land.

29:47You've got to... I mean, nature's in charge. Nature's writing the scripts. You're kind of in the hands of the animals, of the wildlife, and you've got to be prepared for that. And you've kind of got to, in your mind, have what could... How could this play out? What are the scenarios that could potentially happen? And I'll say, be as best as you can prepared for that. and that's about having then the right kit. Yeah. So in terms of the dark. Yeah, yeah. You want to make sure you're using the right equipment. You want to have spoken... We rely a lot on experts, scientific experts, conservationists, local knowledge.

30:17You want to speak to the right people and get as close an approximation as you possibly can to when is this going to happen, how is it going to happen, what time is it going to happen. How do you even work out when you're going to see a group of baboons? I mean, I'm thinking, how do you even find them? That story came... Yeah. Yeah, I mean, sorry. That story came about because, again, we have quite a network of people and people, you know, we do fishing ourselves, if you like, trying to find stories. And that came about through a team who are based in Zambia. In Zambia. In Zambia. And they'd anecdotally spotted some sort of behaviour with this leopard.

30:52And it seems to be, you know, quite regularly we're seeing it, you know, with eating a baboon, for example, sort of in the early morning light. Something's going on, it's catching baboons. It seems to be doing that at night. That got fed back to us. and then we were like, okay, well, we then invested a bit of time in those guys. Well, could you stay out with this leopard at night and see what's going on? And then they got anecdotal reports coming back. Oh, it seems to be going up in the trees. You know, we haven't actually seen it hunting a baboon, but that's what we think is happening. So then we're like, that's enough for us to, like, build on that and deploy all the right kit to then try and capture the behaviour.

31:22And a month in the field, we got that moment. It was a month to capture that story. It was a month in the field, yeah. See, because that's a bit we don't... This is one of the things that we often say, like a lot of our guests say that almost like people get distracted by the outcome and not the process. And it's a process that tells you who's going to be at the output. You have to be so disciplined and it is almost like military operation. Stuart, the director on that sequence, he's going every night and all he had is pitch black. You can't see a thing. And he had like a sort of, you know, military grade scope.

31:53Yeah, like a scope. And he's just spending his whole evening looking through this scope trying to spot. Which makes you totally night blind and like insane. As someone who's used it, you're like... So we've actually got the clip here, I think, from that bit. Shall we? Let's have a look at it. This is the... This would be the right... Yeah, yeah. The clip is excellent. The closer she gets, the greater the risk of waking them.

32:23The troupe is now fully alarmed. so that she becomes bolder.

32:41In all the commotion, her mother and baby take a wrong turn.

32:52And now they are trapped at the end of a branch.

32:58so if you would take us through the emotions you experience when moments like that happen and you're the only witness to it on the planet i mean it's pretty like mind-blowing when you see something like that and it's obviously what you're hoping to see you've spent months and months if not years planning for that moment and hoping and praying it's going to happen and getting yourself in the right position with the right people in order to capture it if it does. But stuff like that might only happen once, you know. If you go for a month, a moment like that could only happen one time. And if you miss it, then you've really messed it up.

33:42That is high performance then is required because it's almost like being a, I don't know if it's a good analogy or an appropriate one, but like being a sniper. You might only get that one shot to drop that guy. You can't afford to miss it. and for us we can't afford to miss that moment because it might not happen again it might not happen again no and then and then then you've wasted all this time energy like everyone else's time energy and everything in has it happened it happens all the time it's a highly stressful situation yeah and everyone is you know probably not blinking for a decent period of time yeah you sort of stop breathing you go into this weird like hyper focus like when something like that's happening you see the leopard start like creeping up the tree and you can like see the baboons waiting or whatever you're all like you're like you want it have you done this is your settings right have you checked this do this remember you talk like so that starts to happen and are you whispering constantly you might be whispering so quietly but really you don't want to say what's happening so at that point you're kind of like you're locked in you're locked in and everyone knows their role everyone knows yeah i mean again just any movement in the vehicle if you suddenly start scratching around then that's the cameraman so where was that filmed from?

34:56that was filmed from within a car using a thermal camera which has quite a long lens on it and because the leopard was in the tree they've got the camera almost at this kind of angle it's a really precarious difficult position to be in and it's pitch black they couldn't have any lights on in the car because if the leopard had seen it or the baboons had seen those lights you've blown the whole thing no one's going to do anything so they're in the pitch black trying not to breathe trying not to move trying not to jostle stuff and somehow the camera operator is still capturing this beautiful footage for us to use.

35:27Yeah, and then you just got to watch it play out and hope it goes well and hope nothing goes wrong. And then it's about getting that moment. Then it's about getting cutaways. Just again, like a drama. You know, you need to be able to then build a sequence and tell a story.

35:42This is a paid advertisement from BetterHelp. With almost 5 ,000 registered therapists in the UK, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a wide variety of expertise in mental health with no referral needed. And as part of this quick chat on the podcast, I'm really proud to say I'm joined by Courtney Cope. Now, Courtney is the Principal Clinical Operations Manager at BetterHelp with expertise in a range of therapies, including family dynamics, life transitions, and stress and anxiety. And previous to her position at BetterHelp, Courtney worked as a therapist for corporate leaders, helping clients navigate the stresses that comes with leading a business.

36:20And I know that so many of you who listen to our show want to talk about this kind of stuff, don't really know where to start. So we thought we'd make it easy for you by having this conversation ourselves. And before we get going, it's also important for me to say that when I was in my 20s and I was on kids TV here in the UK, I went into therapy because I was suffering with serious anxiety and depression. And I will never forget the two things that my therapist told me. The first one was learn to live with this for a short period of time and the freedom that that gave me to accept how I was feeling was vital.

36:51And the second thing, was it a fact or was it a feeling that I had? And the idea that it was a feeling and not a fact that I was living with was really important. So let's welcome Courtney to the show. Hey, Courtney. Hi, Jake. Thanks so much for having me. Very happy to be here. Very nice to see you. I think what I've just said there about having therapy and finding that, you know, it took a while, but the very first time I opened up and spoke to someone who wasn't a friend or a colleague or a parent. It was fundamentally life changing for me. And I imagine that's something that you probably hear quite often from people that very first conversation, just the bravery to speak out for the first time can really change things.

37:29Absolutely. It makes all the difference, especially when you know you have someone there that's in your corner, and someone who wants the best for you. And someone who's objective as well, like they're not your parent, your best friend, they're not tied up in the outcomes of your life. They're really just wanting to see you succeed and be the happiest you can be. So I think that kind of advocate is so powerful to have. And I sometimes think that when we talk, and you know, you work in this space, I've got experience of this space. There can be people listening to this thinking, well, it's fine for you, because you've both lived it and experienced it.

37:59But what about me? I feel I feel helpless, and I feel lost. What's the first thing that you would want those people to understand about therapy that maybe they don't? The number one thing I find with people who are typically individuals who want to achieve a lot or go far in their life is that these are often the individuals who have to be strong for others. And when you're talking to a mental health professional, that's the one time where it gets to be just about you and it gets to be about someone supporting you. You get to talk about your stressors, your struggles, your difficulties. So the thing that I would say to people is that when you work with a therapist, you get someone who's in your corner to give you the support you need.

38:43And when you have support, you don't have to carry it on your own. Are there any tools that spring to mind that you could share with us very briefly for people who are listening to this and maybe they are struggling a bit at the moment? One of the very first things I like to help my clients understand is the importance of reframing how we're even looking at our hardships. What about if we just say like, okay, this happened, now what? And so an attitude of resilience is one of the most important coping skills that I try to help my clients instill into their toolkit. Also, don't forget to extend self-compassion and forgiveness to yourself.

39:21I think that's really, really helpful for people. And I also know that people listen to this podcast, right? It's called High Performance for a reason. They're thinking, right, how can I find my own version of high performance? And I firmly believe that therapy can be the thing that gets you to reach the goals that you're after. It can hold you accountable. It can give you that discipline. Absolutely. I think therapy is very much about facing yourself honestly. It's not about showing up and turning in some like emotional report card where you're looking to get straight A's. It's about just being who you are, being where you're at and looking at it all without judgment and just seeing where you're at in the moment.

39:58it. Courtney, I've really enjoyed that conversation. It was brief, but I think it was really important for a lot of people. So thank you ever so much. Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Jake. And listen, if you are interested in seeking help with almost 5 ,000 registered therapists in the UK, BetterHelp can provide access for you to mental health professionals with a wide variety of expertise in their field and no referral needed. And as a listener to our show, you'll get 10 % off your first month at BetterHelp. Just go to betterhelp.com forward slash THPP. That's better, H-E-L-P, dot com forward slash THPP.

40:40Well, that was a bit that, like, when I watched that, I said this to you before, that two minutes before I watched that, I'd never given more than a second start to a baboon. Within three minutes of watching it, you had me gripped. I cared deeply. I was upset. I felt bereft when that balloon falls out of the tree and it starts to get eaten. I think there's something really valuable you can teach us and our listeners, which is how do you get people to care about something that they don't necessarily know they should care about? I think that's storytelling. Again, we want to engage the audience.

41:21We want them to be gripped, as you were. So that's about pacing. That's about the delivery of David's voice. That's about how we use music and create dramatic tension, just as you would in a drama. What we're not doing is just giving you the ABC of a leopard. This is a leopard. It has spots. It does this. We're bringing you into their world and really immersing you in it. So we push ourselves very hard with our storytelling. So not only are we putting off all our field skills and crafts to capture this behaviour, we're then really analysing how we then present it within the shows. And I think that's an art form in itself and one that I think in the last 20 years has really been turned up a notch in our genre.

42:06Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's why our shows sit at prime time and do well. Something else I think is really interesting is that almost everything else that you film, if you miss a shot you can go back and recreate it you don't have that luxury so I don't know what are the processes you go through to make sure that by the time you get back to an edit suite in Bristol from the plains of Africa there's no missed shots there's no missed opportunities yeah I mean we it's a skill set that you develop over time like anything I think and so there are going to be times especially near the beginning of your career where you are going to miss stuff and I think or my big learning experience for me is like when you take your own footage into the edit you start really seeing the holes and you think to yourself I should have got I should have got that shot or it would be so helpful if I had a shot now of a close-up of that animal's face or like something that would just really help sell it and then so then the next time you go out you're going to be better and the next time after that you're going to be better and it's that kind of process You have a shot list don't you?

43:09I mean we would go out all of the shot lists Sometimes we even have storyboards which is like our dream scenario if you like, of how we want this to play out. So again, you have to be prepared for nature to rewrite that script. So if you had to prioritise, how would you describe the priority of your role? Is it to educate or is it to entertain? Is it to get people to be activists or is it just to be pacifists and watch it? It's that marriage of both. We want people to engage with the natural world and realise it's out there. And for me, particularly with mammals, we're mammals ourselves, aren't we?

43:40And as we've said, we're the most sophisticated of all the mammals. But with that sophistication and with our rise to the top and our ever-growing population, I think comes a responsibility towards all the other mammals we share the planet with. Totally agree. And more and more we're in direct contact with these other animals. And so that responsibility is getting heavier and heavier. Yeah, and I love it when you travel to countries and you see an incredible tolerance towards wild animals that sometimes you don't necessarily see in our own country. Like where, for example? So there's an example in India where there's tigers living very close to a town.

44:13And local people tolerate those tigers. In actual fact, the tigers are benefiting from the people because there's cattle there. Cattle that are no longer needed, but they're allowed to just wander around. And the tigers are able to take the cattle and they don't interfere with people. Sure, if they suddenly became man-eaters, there would be a problem. But there's this kind of coexistence going on. It's just this beautiful thing. And I don't think that anyone's necessarily planned that, but it's just kind of played out like that. So in the daytime, you'll see people walking down a pass, and then at nighttime, those people won't be there, but there'll be a tiger walking down that pass.

44:44I mean, can you imagine that in this country? I don't know. Am I being unreasonable? Am I being unfair? It would make the front page of the Daily Mail anyway. It's quite wild, yeah. There's another example that we featured in Mammals in the New Wild episode, second episode, which is in Singapore, they had this big environmental movement to really make the city really green, and they cleared up the waterways through the process of doing this, and that brought the Asian shop called Otter back into the cities. And now there are these huge groups of otters roaming around the city centre. And not only did people let them be there and whatever, they're happily integrated into the city, but they're super excited.

45:22They have a whole fan base, these otters. There's Facebook pages dedicated to them, people who are so excited to see them every time. And the otters are completely fearless because of it. They run around happy as Larry in this city, huge metropolitan city crossing the road swimming in and out of beautiful clear waterways all through the city and people are just so so related whenever they see them love that and I think that's also nature can give you that back when you see a wild animal it gives you a good feeling doesn't it yeah and it's proven it's good for your mental health you know being in natural spaces and engaging with wildlife yeah but the problem is as we get closer to them we cause them more problems quite often and I think it's very important that we touch on this as well because I think one of the key jobs that you do is open our eyes to the impact of humankind on the animal population.

46:08Would you mind sharing with us the sort of most heartbreaking thing that you've seen out there that we have created and continue to create? I mean, for me, it was a sequence that I filmed for this series, which was quite harrowing even to film um we we went to film cheetahs hunting which is something that every child dreams of seeing right they're all in the picture books whatever um and i'd never seen a cheetah in my life so just to get the opportunity to see a cheetah in the flesh was amazing but the story that we wanted to tell and it was very much just like a purely observational story was about people and especially tourists having a real passion for cheetahs.

46:59Everyone wants to go to Africa and see a cheetah. It's the dream. But the way in which some of those vehicles and stuff engage with the wildlife can have a real indirect pressure on those species. So cheetahs, there's been some studies on them recently. And though, you know, tourists are around them and they're potentially still making kills and stuff, it's the indirect pressure on them is really having a massive impact on the survival rates of their cubs. So, you know, I think the latest studies are saying that in areas where there's high tourism, cheetah cubs have, you know, are 10 times less likely to make it.

47:42Why? Just because of the indirect pressure on adults in order to hunt and survive in those environments while they're surrounded by cars and people. Like, it's quite, I think it's quite an overwhelming experience for those animals. It gives them so much more to think about than just hunting and surviving. They're also thinking about dodging vehicles and how they negotiate that landscape. But also they can't hear as well. It's very noisy. Like being in the situation where we were in a place where we could see this happening, you know, these vehicles are noisy. People are talking. People are yelling.

48:22People are using their cameras with the clicky sound on. And it feels a bit like being in the paparazzi. You can imagine that that kind of environment would be hard to perform your best in, right? And I think that for me was a really difficult thing to watch as someone, not only as a filmmaker, but as someone who loves wildlife. It's really difficult because without the reserves and the national parks in the world, there would be no place for wildlife. There'd be no space. But it's about that balance. And it's about just making sure we're showing respect. and remembering these are wild animals just trying to go about their lives.

48:58And we're piling in there. You know, it's not a theme park. Yeah, it's not a fire park. This is their territory. This is real life for these animals. And if you're piling in and you're pushing drivers to get closer so you can get a selfie with a cheetah. And I think some of that selfiness... That's not a word, is it? I know what you mean. You know what I mean, don't you? That desire to get a selfie and that means you've got to get that much closer. Where maybe 10 years ago when people were more going out with their telescopic lenses, they were hanging back a bit more. And I think things have changed quite recently because of the phone, if you like.

49:31It's difficult. It's an interesting one. And I don't think people are doing this deliberately. No one's trying to disturb the cheetah hunt. It's just, I think it's a bit more education, a bit more knowledge and understanding. And we're hoping the sequence can do that. But at the same time, we just present what is going on. We're not finger-wagging at anyone. It's brilliantly shot, by the way, that sequence. Thank you. With the camera angle, it kind of like, the cars are surprising every time it comes into shot. It's brilliantly voyeuristic, doesn't it? That's what we wanted it to feel. Because yours feels intimate, and that just feels like you've been a voyeur, seeing it through the eyes there.

50:08Can I just, before we move to our quickfire questions, ask you about a really high-performance mammal, Sir David Aspera. I assume you've both spent time working with him, and I would love to know, really what you learned from him that you take into your daily work? I mean, I was lucky enough to be with him yesterday. He's 97, he's 98 this year. He's such an incredible human being. And, I mean, just a humble guy, you know, still incredibly grounded, still coming at what he's doing for the right reasons. It's not about him. He always defers all the glory to everyone else in the nicest possible way.

50:46But he's just a very genuine human being who cares deeply about the natural world. and he wants to present it and he wants people to fall in love with it like he loves it. And his passion for it is not diminished in the slightest. And his energy, and he's just infectious. We were lucky yesterday, it was a press screening and he said a few words and what he said was just absolutely so delightful. I'm not going to try and repeat it. I'm not David Attenborough. But he just has an ability to communicate in a way that is just extraordinary. And if it wasn't for David Attenborough, I think the world would be a much sadder place in terms of people, you know, understanding of natural history would be a lot smaller.

51:26So I think he's done an incredible job and he's done an incredible career. But as a human being, he's the most incredible guy and I think we could all learn a lot from him. What have you learned from him? What have I learned from him? Just to stay grounded and to remember why you're doing this and to be a good person. I mean, he could be the most demanding clicky finger guy you could ever meet, you know, it's Sir David Attenborough, but he's not, you know, and I think... Yeah, he's incredibly humble. Yeah, I think humble's the word. But he's just always so delightful when you see him. It's like he's sort of tipping his head to you.

51:56It's like, David, crikey. What have you learned from him? What's he said to you that's lived with you, Harry? I mean, yeah, David was an incredibly humble man. As someone who basically defined a genre, he has had an amazing career. And the first time I met him, I swear to God, time stood still. as we shook hands. I was like, it was like, I would hate for him to watch this and hear this, but it was like, it felt like meeting Santa. Like, it felt like meeting a fictional, like, magical person. But he was so nice and so grounded when we talked. And his, something he said to me, which I have tried to remember all the time, was like, just don't forget to enjoy it.

52:45Like, he was like, don't forget to enjoy the experience. That's the other thing about Dave. He's got a great sense of humour. He's a funny guy. Very funny. Yeah. He's cheeky. He's funny. Yeah. But he's like the dream granddad. If you could have a... I wish. I mean... Imagine him reading you a bedtime story. Yeah. It'd just be amazing. So quick fire questions. Yes. The three non-negotiable behaviours that you need to do the job that you both do. The job that I do, so both in the office and directing, is probably communication skills. It's really a team effort and you've got to be open to learning from other people and communicating with your team at all times.

53:27Passion, you have to have passion for something. Be that wildlife, be that filmmaking, be that technology. That passion is what's going to make your shows really, really stand out. and a third thing I think resilience resilience is a good one you've got to be resilient you know for lots of reasons when you're sat in the vehicle for the 20th day and you've not filmed anything it's just hanging in there and just having the strength to do that and keeping going very nice yeah totally what advice would you give to yourself as teenagers growing up in Sirencester in Birmingham blimey what advice would I give myself don't try and force yourself into someone else's box like you what you bring to the game is amazing in its own right and that's what's going to really propel you to where you need to be don't be afraid to dream don't be afraid to follow your heart and when you get an opportunity take it and give it your all you know in your long and longish careers what's the single most remarkable thing that you've seen in the natural world?

54:42Oh Jake, that's a tricky one. I've already talked about the polar bear but I have to say going to the Arctic and being in the most wildest of places in my opinion just that whole arena, it just blew my mind. I think for me actually, yes, I've had some really amazing close encounters with wildlife and that's really taken my breath away and put me out of my body at times. But to be honest, there's been some landscapes that I've been to, similar to what we were saying about the Arctic, where it's just so pristine and unimaginably brilliant that it feels like your brain can't really comprehend that what you're looking at is real.

55:27It feels like looking at a Windows screensaver. Being somewhere where humanity's not touched it. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? there are still places on the planet that are like that and if you get the opportunity to go to them it's absolutely indescribable it's so strange to be somewhere where you can't see a sign of humanity anywhere and it's all just total wilderness and the final question your one golden reason for people to watch mammals this is a good question I mean I think so people will fall in love with their fellow mammals and realise how incredible they are and how amazing they are and And ultimately, if they end up caring about them just a little bit more, I think that would be incredible.

56:08Yeah, absolutely agree with Roger. It's all about connecting with mammals on some level and experiencing what an amazing group of animals they are and we are and understanding a sense of responsibility that we have to coexist with these species. Brilliant. Thank you both very much indeed. Love that.

56:31Damien Jake we have sat and interviewed many many people but few of them with the passion that our guests Roger and Harry showed just then it's like it's a great reminder that if you can find a way by hook or by crook to get passion at the centre of your world you can live a life of real joy and you can see the joy in their eyes talking about their job oh yeah when they were passing on some of those stats and facts about bats and about the hyenas and things like that was just incredible that there are people immersed in the world of documentaries and discoveries and just bringing that to the general public to ignite that similar passion was a real privilege to be in the company of.

57:14And I think it's also a good reminder for people that I think there are certain jobs that people think are just not achievable. And one of those would definitely be wildlife documentary maker. The kind of thing that if you are growing up like Harry in inner city Birmingham now and go, I want to be a wildlife documentary maker, someone goes, be realistic. But that's a great reminder that you don't need to be realistic. You can have a dream and it does happen. Yeah, exactly. And I think that was what Roger had said at the end there. And I think that's the bit that I'll take away was that idea of don't be afraid of dreaming and don't be afraid of articulating your dreams to others because you never know where that dreaming can take you.

57:50And both of Harry and Roger there were a textbook example of it. Thank you, mate. you're one of my favourite mammals. You too.

58:00And that brings us to the end of today's episode. Look, huge thanks to you for listening, for getting involved. And I'd love to know what you made of that conversation. So please do reach out and tell me. Thanks again for continuing to trust us on High Performance to bring you interesting and slightly different conversations like this one. Remember to chase world-class basics. Stay humble, stay curious, stay empathetic. And I'll see you soon.

58:36so

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