Delia Smith: The power of silence (E220)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance App. to sit and hear a live conversation with Serena about her new book, What It Takes, my playbook on life and leadership. So if you want to relive the Euros triumph, if you want to find out how she transformed English football in the women's game, if you want to get the inside track on what happened in the recent World Cup and the World Cup final, then you need to be with us on the 8th of November at Westminster Chapel in London. And if you get a ticket, the ticket will also come with a copy of Serena's new book. For more information and to bag your place, go to thehighperformancepodcast.com.

1:05That's thehighperformancepodcast.com and come and join us in London, live with the England Lionesses manager, Serena Wiegman. Hi there, you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that unlocks the minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jake Humphrey and alongside Professor Damien Hughes. We learn from the stories, successes and struggles of our guests, allowing us all to explore, be challenged and to grow. Here's what's coming up today. I feel that if something's wrong, I want to do my bit to put it right. And I don't think that's unique to me. I think everybody has that sort of capacity in them, but it just needs to be brought out.

1:54I really don't believe this wonderful, beautiful thing called human existence is just going to come to an end with climate change. And it is going to come to an end. If we don't do something about it, that's it. It's extinction. Or as one writer put it, unite or perish. One vote every five years is not living in a democracy. Not in any way, shape or form. That's all we're given. We have to find a way to let the people in community be the politics. Don't be fooled by this charming, lovely person underneath their steel. So today we welcome the owner of Norwich City Football Club, TV chef and author Delia Smith to the High Performance Podcast.

2:43So Delia is now in her 80s. She's been a chef for over 60 years. her TV career started would you believe over 50 years ago her books have sold millions but what we were really interested in is a recent book she's written that I reckon you don't have on your bookshelf you probably do have Delia Smith's complete cookery course or one of the other cookbooks that she's written but she also released a book recently called you matter the human solution and the truth is that she believes that humans are the solution she is optimistic about our future. She's incredibly interested in our future. She talks on this podcast about spirituality, the power of the human race, the power that you have to make this a world that you want it to be.

3:30And I think the fact that Delia has been on the earth for over eight decades puts her in a place where she has real freedom to talk about these kinds of things. You will know plenty about someone as famous as Delia Smith, but I would wager that you're going to hear Delia speak in a way that you won't expect and have never heard before. As we welcome Delia Smith to the High Performance Podcast.

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5:41Delia lovely to see you nice to see you guys welcome to the show what is high performance to you well it's something that um I wouldn't pertain to really it sounds a bit above what I do but I think it's doing the best you can do and really not leaving any stones unturned going the extra mile and working really hard. That's it for me. I love the idea of growth and change. And many people look at Delia Smith and think Delia Smith, chef, cookery writer, football club owner. You released a book not long ago that was very different to the Delia Smith that we all know. What made you want to do that?

6:28I just think it's been a journey that started when I was a child really I felt there's something wrong in life that might be able to be put right and I think what we've neglected is our sort of deeper selves our spiritual life and I think it's got bound up with religion that so it's sort of put on the side as being religious or about religion so I desperately wanted to do something about the spiritual side of life spirituality that didn't include religion it wasn't about religion it's about humans and what humans are made of I'm interested in that comment that you said that you'd almost recognize that something wasn't right from yes from a young age would you tell us more about that Well, not so much from when I was young, but now, which compelled me to write it.

7:27But I just felt because when I was a child, my mother put me to bed too early. And I knew it was too early because all the kids were outside playing and there I was, no chance of going to sleep. But I just had this space, this time in my life, which was very productive. I can't explain it any more than that. All children have their sort of space moments. And I just felt that was an important part of life that I've always wanted to always go back to. So that's what brought it on, if you like. So it was almost like constructive daydreaming? Yeah, anything. I don't like the word meditation because I think it implies something you've got to achieve, something you've got to do.

8:15but I think stillness and silence achieves so much in a person and I just wanted to try and convince people that it's very therapeutic you know that you come out of the busyness and the fast lane and you just have that time in yourself to yes daydream or whatever comes along Sometimes it's going to be something really deep. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes the shopping list at Sainsbury's comes into the mind or what I'm going to have for breakfast or whatever. But it's something really ordinary, but something really dynamic at the same time. Can we talk about spirituality? What does it represent to you when we say spirituality?

9:04Well, it means that there is... the essence of a person, the deeper side of a person that can get lost in the noise and the activity. There's one great philosopher, French philosopher, whose name I can never remember. But he said, all the troubles in the world, not some, all the troubles in the world come upon us because we refuse to sit still in our rooms for half an hour each day. Blaise Pascal. Blaise Pascal. And do you do that? yes and what does it do for you i can't say what it does but it's something i can't do without you know i need to have that space i need to have that time so for people that don't do this how should they begin is it as simple as just sitting still for half an hour or are there specific things that work for you that people can maybe adopt well i've always said the harder it is the more you need it.

10:07So I had a book that helped me, written by an Indian Sufi, who said, it is going to be hard, but if you do 10 minutes, and then increase it later to 20 minutes, and then increase it to, he said, the optimum is an hour a day. But I think that is a good way. And I think, you know, being a practical person, I think it's quite good if you have a timer, so you know when the 10 minutes is up because if you're not used to it you sit there and you go keep looking at your watch is that all people are not used to sitting still in silence so it's quite difficult but as somebody that has a packed agenda and has had a packed agenda for a long time whether it's with the football or yeah the other commitments and and initiatives that you're involved in Delia what does this half an hour reflection give you in those other worlds it just opened me up to a more intense kind of view of things um of people it's only in the last 23 years that I've made the commitment to do an hour a day before that it was just dribs and drabs But that was reading the book.

11:26You know, this guy was very emphatic. I think it's changed me completely and it's made me more aware. It's nothing airy-fairy or right up there. It's something really simple like noticing people, listening to people, appreciating life, appreciating other human beings. I think probably what's blown me away is what human life is. I can't actually still quite believe it, you know? Go on, say more about that. Well, we don't choose it, do we? We're just there. But there's some sort of, I don't know, cosmic process that's going on in this vast universe where it takes millions of years for light to reach the Earth.

12:15And that's how big it is. And there's this tiny little planet, which is like a little dot, you know, tiny little fragment in within all that. And up pops life. I mean, come on. What's that? Life happens. And it's all life. And then it's human life. So it's life everywhere. You know, little blade of grass coming up. That's life. and then it's human life and oh there's culture and there's sport and there's all these wonderful things and I know it's difficult I know it's hard but it's still awesome. And what does that mindset do for you when things aren't great or you're faced with challenge or you find life difficult as a lot of people do?

13:07It is going to always be difficult so I like old-fashioned colloquialisms So there's no such thing as a free lunch. And everything is going to cost. Everything is going to be hard sometimes. Everything is going to be disappointing. And I would say to both of you how wonderful football is. because a little child of five sitting on the terraces in tears and the whistle's just gone and they've lost knows what life is about. There are going to be those, you know, you lose the match and it's the end of the world. And is that maybe why football actually is so important to you? Because it's about human beings, it's about human connection, it's about community, it's about coming together and connecting.

13:56Especially the connection and the community because there aren't many areas of life now where there's still proper community. And community is where people become themselves. People become their best when they're in community. When they're with other people, that's when they rise up and become truly themselves. I've learned a lot from you, Damien. Oh, thanks, Damien. Damien talks about social glue. Explain your thoughts on that. Social glue, there is this kind of invisible connection that we all have that we can ignore. We don't realize it's there. But when you get, you know, people together and when they become team, you know, that is quite, that is it, isn't it?

14:43It's finding, as you said, that social glue. So where have you seen it applied most powerfully then? Wherever there is strong community. I mean, I had somebody write to me the other day and asked me to say a few words. And she was in Norfolk helping poor families, you know, to cope. And she said, it's amazing how when you give people, you give them freedom, when they come together and you give them freedom, up come the ideas. Up comes the sort of, you know, imagination and the, it's all there. but I think it needs other people to bring it out. I mean, if everybody in the world today got the social glue, got together and said we're having no more authoritarianism, we wouldn't have any.

15:34And how does this link back to where we started this conversation about, as Damien mentioned, reflective daydreaming, that hour a day that you take just to be with yourself? How do we link that to people being together? because that feels like a very individual thing to be doing. Yes. Well, I think that's an important part of it because I think what that does is it somehow brings that into you. It's sort of community, people become more important to you because you're spending that time. Truth is coming to you. and truth is that I can be a better person if I'm with other people. So if I said to you, what's your purpose?

16:24How would you answer that question? My purpose? No one's ever asked me that. I don't know what my purpose is but I know how I feel. I feel that if something's wrong, I want to do my bit to put it right and I don't think that's unique to me. I think everybody has that sort of capacity in them, but it just needs to be brought out. And there may well be people listening to this thinking, we've never lived in a time of more fractious things going on. We've never lived in a time where people are more separate from each other, despite the fact that it's claimed that technology brings us closer together.

17:04Yeah. that's the challenge that people might think well this problem is too great for me to solve or for us to solve or for you know a quiet reflection the world isn't rainbows kittens and candy floss is it that you know that there's some we need some realism here and i think some people might doubt that this can that this can offer that i think the political systems are broken and i think people are sort of the most dangerous thing of all is that the state we're in at the moment becomes normalized we look on the television and we see the terrible terrible things going on and the the killing and the hardship and all of that and we think we can't do anything about it we feel helpless and we can't do anything about it so i think we've got to find answers but i can't find answers but i think together we can find answers so if i was to go out now and say i was to invite both of you and I was to invite the man who wrote that book and the man who wrote that book and da da da da and get them all around the table right how are we going to fix it we would see I think what like what you're offering here is really compelling Delia and I'm interested in for anyone listening to this say that whether it's a school community or whether it's just a a wider community in their local area or whether it's even a business I get the reflective daydreaming starts to open you up to the truth, what would you say is almost like the next steps of how we can start to create these powerful communities where we start to right the wrongs and make a difference?

18:42Well, am I allowed to dream now? Yeah, please, go on. Okay, I'll dream. By doing it, by making communities. So what's step one of that? There is something now, I don't know whether you've heard about it, but there's something now called citizens' assemblies. You haven't heard about it. You see, that's the problem. We've got the media telling us all the time how terrible everything is. Nobody's heard of citizens' assemblies. So what citizens' assemblies are is gathering people together from a community and sitting down and thrashing out what the world's problems are and trying to find the answers.

19:22So it's now happening all over the world in all different countries. and there is two big societies in America but the leading light on this is the Republic of Ireland and they started having citizens' assemblies and when they got to this dreaded thing called abortion which had taken 25 years, the government couldn't sort it. The government could not sort it. So the government allowed, they got a citizens' assembly of 100 people. And what happens is they're all randomly chosen. So they're randomly chosen from, you know, electoral rolls, whatever, you know, different ages, different backgrounds.

20:15And these 100 people meet together, sometimes over a weekend, sometimes one day of a weekend, you know, a Saturday. and they deliberate together. Now what they're given is, it's totally random, you can't take a friend or anything, you just go along and what they're given then is information about the subject to read, they have speakers that come in, they have people who have been affected by the law, they come in and talk, so they're informed. They're not deliberating just out of like, bomb, but they're informed. And so they take that information, they get together, and they deliberate, they discuss it, and then at the end, they go out to the country, they find what they think, they go out to the country, everybody has a vote, and they change the constitution.

21:13Now that's a big one, isn't it? That one. That is what I'm saying. Now, put that around the world everywhere split us all up into areas where we can have citizens assemblies one of the great writers on this was an american writer called hannah arendt and she's written a lot about this kind of thing i think that's the answer so i'm allowed to dream on this podcast what i love on that is that like if we sort of break it down into transferable bits that there's something around first of all coming up with a solution rather than just identifying the problem there's something around the diversity of members yeah there's something about listening rather than just having an opinion there's lots of easy skills that anyone listening to this could adopt yeah so if you went on to youtube yeah and you had a look at the irish citizens assemblies What you would see is what I've tried to write about in my book, which is probably not happening, is happening to people.

22:20They are coming alive. There's witnesses that stand up, like a young girl stands up and says, I just had no idea that I could contribute to something like this. And that's the power of community, of human beings, social glue. one of the things that i love most about you and there are many of them is your optimism but we're also faced with the media right yeah who are deciding that we should be told about all the really awful things in the world yeah and you can watch the news every single night and you can see all the horrendous things and none of us have ever heard about the example you've just spoken about right so are you optimistic about the future or are you pessimistic about the future because of the way that society is is informed well i have to be i have to be optimistic about it because um i really do believe it and i really don't believe this wonderful beautiful thing called human existence is just going to come to an end with climate change and it is going to come to an end if we don't do something about it that's it it's extinction or as one writer put it unite Unite or perish.

23:32So how have we lost? You like that. I love that a lot. Unite or perish. Yeah. Have we lost sight then of how awesome we actually are? I know that. We have. You know, in your book, people talk about self-actualization, realizing the potential that we have of human beings. Yeah. But we're being brainwashed all the time, not to think that. Why? Because I think, I'm sorry, I'm going to have to get political. Is that all right? Yeah. Is it allowed? Yeah, of course. Everything is allowed here. I think that what happened in the Second World War, what happened with Nazism and fascism, we defeated the Nazis, but Nazism didn't go.

24:17And now it's moved into another phase called populism. And that populism is a lie because the word populism implies people. And they're not about people at all. So all over the world, you've got these oligarchs and whatever you call them, you know, authoritarian leaders manipulating. They're getting into the political systems of everywhere. So everywhere they're into the political systems and you find evidence of it. So really, I think the only fight back is people. Somebody else said, but I don't know who said this, which is lovely, the only way to fight populism is the population. Do you mind if we touch on that just for a moment?

25:13Yes. What's broken and what should the answer be? I think what's wrong in the world at the moment is the people, the population, the citizens of the universe do not have a say in anything. Nothing. We're just told, you know. Okay, we're going to send the refugees off to Rwanda. We have no say in that. And I want us to learn about people power and what that would mean. and okay it is utopian you know people will scoff you know the cynicism everywhere it is utopian well let's have a bit of utopia but someone would counter well we live in a democracy we vote for the government based on their manifesto therefore we do have a say what would your answer to that be one vote every five years is not living in a democracy not in any way shape or and that's all we're given.

26:12We have no say in anything else. And what does that vote give us? One set for another set of inadequates. What would you like the answer to be? We have to find a way to let the people in community be the politics. How do we do that? By people coming together. You know, one writer, the one I talked about in America, said there should be big spaces everywhere. You know, you should build big spaces where people can come together and deliberate, just like the original. The original, where the word democracy came from, was from the Greek polis. But we have big spaces where people come together and when they come together they get dispersed by the police and they pass new bills making it illegal to get together and share your opinion.

27:01Or they walk down the street telling people not to be using their cars and the media vilify those people. So it then suddenly seems okay for the general public to attack them for doing that or to boo them for caring about the environment. Because the people don't have any power. But if you begin to transfer the power to the people, like in the Republic of Ireland, they've now had a citizens' assembly on drug abuse, a citizens' assembly on the problem of the ageing population. You know, the embryo is there, and I would like to see that developed, but it needs really clever people. I mean, we are really clever.

27:44The human race, you know, is walking on the moon, we're now going to go to Mars. And then here we are, you know, on our little planet, ruining it and making it, wiping it out. And it feels like the wrong people are leading the world as well. Absolutely. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. We're promoting the wrong type of people, perhaps. Do you think that? It's absolutely that. Absolutely that. You know, it's all top-down, isn't it? It's all top-down leadership. And then we've got the extreme people everywhere dotted about. And I just feel we are capable of doing anything. thing why are we not capable of making our world a place of peace and harmony and is the biggest challenge here that this is about control the people who are already in control would never relinquish control to allow the people to take control well the other way around if if the people begin to, I would say, you know, if that thing grows, then sooner or later, you know, it's the people themselves who are making the decisions.

29:02And I can be blown away by cynics, but we need clever people. I'm not clever enough to work out how that would happen. But all I know now is like, I mean in America the founding fathers of America that was their original vision was that everybody would be involved and they were all involved in the resolution revolution but then the founding fathers at the end of it all the people went away and now we're in charge and then it gets handed on handed on and so it's everywhere it's a few people in charge of a lot of people. And when you put it that way doesn't seem right. It isn't. It isn't. But it needs clever people who are very clever at writing about what's wrong to say, come on, let's put it right.

29:53But we can do it. We are humanity. Look what we've achieved. There is no reason why we can't do it. Obviously, when you talk in this way, there will be some people that decide to be critical. You know, people expect Delia to be a certain type of person. Would you explain to our audience how you deal with criticism? Well, all my life, you know, I've had quite a lot of criticism. So I've had quite a lot of practice. Because I used to be slammed for being boring and not being a sort of ambitious chef, making everybody gasp when they ate something. You know, I was just doing the Yorkshire puddings.

30:35and so I got a lot of criticism for that. I still get a lot of criticism. I think now I'm sure of my ground. I am 82 after all. I've had a long, long time to get to this stage but I'm quite sure of my ground and I understand that people won't agree with me. I mean, you know, if I just stood up now and said, look, you've got to close the House of Commons, it's not working. I would get quite a bit of criticism. And for those who still struggle with criticism, what advice would you give to them? To be self-actualised, to accept yourself. If you can get rid of your ego, I think ego is something that we have to grapple with.

31:25and if we can get rid of that and learn how to be humble then you can cope with it I think better. Tell us more about that. Why is the ego so dangerous? Because I've just watched it over my career happen to people. You know they go up in the world and then they suddenly become you know it's I, me and myself isn't it And it's, I think, a person who can't ever say they're wrong. So if you're struggling with criticism, people criticizing you, go with it. Go with the flow. Okay, right, I've got that wrong. You know? What if there's a sense of injustice there? I mean, I'll give you a real world example.

32:18it's pained me many occasions when I've gone to Norwich knowing the love you have for that club the love you have for the fans how perilous the future of Norwich was when you bought it the sacrifices you've made financially and personally to hold the football club in the right way the fact you don't call yourself an owner you call yourself a you know the current custodian of Norwich the fact you're a fan before you're a majority shareholder yeah I've heard tens of thousands of people chanting Delia out in the stadium. Yeah. So how do you deal with it? A real truth about actually how that feels when it feels so unjust.

32:55I think in the beginning, in the very beginning, it did hurt. But I think the way to deal with it is to just accept it. I mean, I know when I close my eyes at night and go to bed, I've done everything I could ever possibly do for Norwich City Football Club. There isn't anything more I could do. And therefore, I know that. I know that's what I do. And I have supporters coming up to me all the time saying, don't take any notice, Delia. Don't take any notice. You know, I'll tell you how I dealt with one. And it's such a wonderful thing. I can't tell you how wonderful I felt. I was walking down Carrow Road and we just lost and it was years ago.

33:40I had to go early because I was doing a television program the next day. I had to leave early. We were losing badly. So Carrow Road was empty and there's this supporter coming up. And he came up to me right up close and he said, you have brought our football club into the gutter. And all I can say to you is, will you please go? Wow. Answer? well, I still love you. And what was the reaction? The stewards were all rushing, saying, you all right, do you need any help? You know, it's so wonderful. Did you mean that? Yeah, I did mean it. It's so wonderful to be able to deal with it in a humble way because it disarms people.

34:28It so disarms them. Killing with kindness. But when I do get upset, very upset, if I hear people slagging off somebody else that I love, then I get really upset. That hurts me. Like who? Recently, the supporters were doing a bit of a chant that I didn't like and it wasn't about me. Right. About someone else on the board or why does that hurt you so much more? Because I know the work that goes into a football club, how hard it is and daily toil. and the work that goes into it. I love the supporters and I think that 90 % of them understand it. I'm sure. But there's these 10 % of whingers. So they're all in a space now.

35:20They're 10 % of whingers. Okay. They just whinge on.

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37:35I'm really intrigued to sort of explore the topic of humility with you yes because I've never met anyone that has had their first name coined as a in the Oxford English Dictionary or anyone that sold hundreds of millions of books like you have so I've been lucky I've I'm exceptionally lucky that we're talking about when we start before we record he said I don't know what I've got to offer here that's that humility that's integral to you yeah but I'm interested into how do you maintain that because you said you've identified people who as their star has risen they've almost lost that humility and it's cost them but this is something that's innate and natural to you and I'm interested in where it comes from and how you maintain it um I don't know really I mean I think I don't think anyone achieves anything without a lot of other people.

38:32So I think my parents brought me up. They were always quite critical. And my mother, who only died about two years ago, was always really critical. So I had this sort of, you know, there was no chance, really. In what context would she be critical? Oh, in every single way. There would be this, you know, this criticism. And then I met my agent, who has been my agent for 50 years. And she was really good, you know, at keeping my feet on the ground. People would be coming in with offers and she's saying, you don't need that. You don't need to do that. I think she was a huge help to me. My husband's been a huge help to me.

39:17Melanie sitting outside has been a great help to me and other people. Nobody does anything, achieves anything without a lot of other people being involved. But again, that humility can sometimes be rare to recognize it. People love the idea of the self-made narrative of I put myself up by bootstraps. And that sort of story is common in our culture. and yet you're willingly acknowledging the community and the people around you. Yes. And I'm interested if you'll tell us about how you've maintained that community and that culture to allow you to stay grounded. I don't know. I think if you really are humble, there's always going to be a bit of ego there.

39:59It's never going to go completely lurking around. Yeah. But I don't know. I just have to say how lucky I am. I'm really lucky you know I'm lucky that I had Debbie my agent I don't she really did help me a lot how did you meet because again that's like your parents you're blessed with but yeah you've chosen Debbie you know I went to see her so I go and see this literary agent you know and I'm working in a restaurant um saying you know I'd like to write a cookery book on 18th century English cooking. You know, it's the same thing. And she said, oh, right. And she believed in me. She just believed in me.

40:44And she went to her boss because she was working in an agency. He said, oh, don't touch cookery writers. You know, you'll never earn any money out of a cookery writer. Don't worry about that. And so we never got a book published, but she just rang up a magazine one day that was looking for a cookery writer and said can I send someone and she sent me and I got the job so that's how it happened so what did she see in you have you ever asked her like why did she believe in something like saying I want to write a book on 18th century cookery I've heard her say one thing about me one thing she said don't be fooled by this charming lovely a then young person underneath the steel she'd say that's fascinating i'd like to touch on that because we can talk about the how humble you are we can talk about your humility but you also are the majority shareholder of a football club and decisions need to be made right so how would you say you've created or built the culture at norwich city for example it's a community thing i think it was a great football club before I went when we were just sitting in our season ticket seats it was a great football club you know there was something very special about it but I think we have Michael and I and he's you know 50 % of this we have tried to create an ethos that is a family club that is in the community but then there's been a lot of other people as well who who have helped us along the way.

42:23You can't do this without at times taking risk. I'd love to find out your relationship with risk. For those that don't know, would you just explain actually how perilous Norwich City's life was when you became the majority shareholders or when you invested for the very first time? Yes, I can. We were asked to be board directors because it was on the brink of bankruptcy. But how close? like there were people sharing jobs you know they had two people for one job that shared it and they were about to take off the electricity and the and there was a chairman bless him who just marched around the city trying to get some money and then in desperation he came to us and he said you know to me because then I was selling cookery books he said um if if you would be able to put a million pounds in um then you could have a seat on the board not that I knew what a board was but um I immediately said Michael was the football expert not me I was the Johnny come lately who went with Michael, you know.

43:40So I said, well, if we gave you two million, could we have two seats on the board? And they said, yes. And that's how it happened. And so we spent the first few years sitting around a board table discussing how to service debt. It was that bad? How to service debt, how to service debt. And we didn't come out of debt until about completely out of debt. I'm saying when we were completely out of debt, i.e. Michael and I got some of our loans back five years ago. That was the first time. So how long was that? 20 years. Wow. So what is your relationship like with risk then? Because that is a big risk, two million pounds of your money effectively into a business that was struggling.

44:26Well, it wasn't because Michael and I, we went down the garden one day, sat on a seat at the end of the garden and said, well, what do we want to do with this money? What do we want to do with it? We don't want anything. There's nothing we want. So we lived in a lovely little house, cottage. We didn't need anything. But what we did want was our football club to succeed. That's what we really wanted. So that wasn't a risk. You want your football club to succeed. And now here we are a few decades later. I think I'm right in saying no club has been promoted and relegated from the Premier League more times than Norwich City.

45:08So it's certainly been a roller coaster ride, right? Plenty of highs and plenty of lows. Yes. And there is now American investment on the horizon. I think I'm right in saying... No, that's yesterday confirmed. Yeah. So is that an equal shareholding now? Yes. Yes. So how does that sit with you? Well, it started with one of our board directors, Michael Folger, wanting to sell his shares. and so we went out and found a broker to see who would be interested in investing in a football club and they found four different Americans and we looked at them. We decided on one. He came over and he bought Michael Fulger's shares but also put some money in to the club as well and we had an agreement that he put a time limit.

46:01He said, well, in seven years' time, you sell me the club or you pay me the money back. And that seemed like a good deal. So that was him sort of coming, you know. And then, unfortunately, after COVID, we got into debt again. I mean, not quite back to square one, but pretty hard, you know. So in order to try and help the debt, we released some of our shares. So he's now got 40 % and we've got 40%. So in that initial meeting, Delia, how much of it was about the finances and the way you structured that seven-year agreement and how much of it was about the values that you'd obviously bought into?

46:54Well, Mark Antonasio has a baseball club called the Milwaukee Brewers. And it's more or less the same story as Norwich. You know, he took it over when it was, and then he brought it up and now they're right at the top. We did a lot of homework. We did a lot of due diligence. They're very much community people. they believe in community. It seems like a good match. It really, really does. But I can tell you now, if it isn't, we're not going to give up our 40 million share, whatever it is we've got. And being vulnerable for a moment, is there any fear or a sense of sadness that you're no longer the majority shareholder?

47:41Norwich has been a North Star for you for so long. Definitely. Yeah, definitely. But it doesn't matter because we're only there for the good of the football club. And we feel very strongly that we've got to give it up now because of our age. We have to. There's no way we're going to be still. So therefore, our passion now is to get the right people. And so far, it looks good. I'm so pleased and as a Norwich City fan I hope it's the right decision yeah I mean I can't say I'm going to miss going to boring board meetings when that ends before we move to our quick fire questions and this relates to your freedom and the book that you recently released which is incredible we'd recommend it to anyone you matter um what's the one thing you would love people to do after listening to this conversation?

48:39I'm going to use a Damien phrase here. Look at the bigger picture. Look at the bigger picture. The world isn't right. And look at yourself and find out what you can do to help make the world a better place. And that involves other people. But everybody, there isn't anyone born who doesn't have a role, who can't add something. And if their brain automatically says to them, hey, you're just an individual in the vastness of this planet, you can't have an impact, what would you say to them? Go somewhere where you can have an impact. Join football. Join somewhere where you're going to be with other people because other people, you can spend all day on your own dreaming.

49:29You know, that's not going to help you. but if you could be relate to other people and understand that they're all struggling the same way you're struggling and make a difference and um let's not put up with what we're putting up with we're putting up with things and we shouldn't be delia time for the quick fire questions i know you listen to the podcast so you've heard a few of these over the years what are the three non unnegotiable behaviors that you and ideally the people around you as well should really buy into truth definitely that's the key to everything um respect for other people um behavior towards other people and humility we've covered some of this in terms of your greatest weakness but also or your biggest strength?

50:23Risk. I think, you know, the spur of the moment, okay, the brain's not engaged, but the heart is, you know, bump, do it. That's the biggest strength. Yeah. I love that. I don't know. I think so. Other people might be able to tell you more. Talking of other people, what is the thing that you feel people get wrong or misunderstand most about you? I don't know. I think I might come across sometimes as being a bit of a goody, you know, and I'm not. Ask my husband. What advice would you give to a teenage Delia just starting out? Only one thing, and I've thought about this a lot and I've said it when I'm with young people, don't be afraid to fail.

51:10If you're not afraid to fail, you can do anything. anything if you're not afraid to fail live with failure it's not always going to work you're not always going to be right can you give us an example of your biggest failure and what you learned from it not getting in the premiership for five years and why was that a failure because um michael and i our ambition was to be able to somehow or other do it without the money you know we're self-funding everybody's got lashings of money everywhere and if we could actually achieve that that's what my dearest wish of achievement would be um and my other achievement would be to would want to do is change politics delia i've loved this conversation i've absolutely loved it um the final question is your last message really to the to the people that have sat and listened to this what would you love to leave ringing in their ears about living their own high performance life learn to love yourself and then you'll love everyone thank you so much thank you thanks did you enjoy it i did i did and i couldn't go on about it but i learned so much from your book oh well thank you that's really lovely but you know the bigger picture and the behavior i mean that is an amazing book oh well thank you that's really kind but your book is as well like i mean i thought it was so beautifully written and this is a great manifestation of it oh thank you well you had a big influence on me i did say so i said he should be the minister of education well that so that children could learn from day one the big takeaway for me in this conversation is is empowering people like i do feel that people are told all the time that they have no power and you believe the total opposite of that and i think that that That is, if you don't believe in humanity, what do you believe in?

53:13Yeah. People arrive on the earth and want to live a good life, do good things, create good stuff, leave good memories. Something gets in the way. Yeah. It's awesome, isn't it? It is really, really awesome. But how to, I don't know, how to, I think it's just, you know, It's just like my age now. But Debbie said to me, my agent said to me when I was 70, okay, you can say what you like now. Because all my career, like, don't say that. Don't say that. She taught me very early on, don't criticize. Just if somebody has a go at you, don't try and answer back. I've had a lot of people helping me. And I can remember one day, I wanted to say something about Mrs.

54:08Thatcher. She said, no, no, no, no. She said, one thing you can learn from her is she never answered. She never answered any criticisms. So she taught me that.

54:23Damien. Jake. Look, if this podcast exists to do anything, it's to challenge people's thinking. And it's to allow them to see a side of someone that they just wouldn't normally see. And I think that that conversation with Delia Smith has done both. Definitely. Yeah. I think challenge convention, make you think, go back and reappraise what you once believed to be true. And I think some people might have come into this wanting to hear the wisdom of a multi-million selling chef. Some people might have come into here the custodian of a football club. But I think what we've been lucky enough to hear is somebody at 83 years of age condensing all that wisdom and telling us how to apply it to our own lives.

55:05and you might agree you might not but the fact that you're stopping and listening is the value of this i think also we can say like is that a high performance conversation and now it's not a high performance conversation in the typical um what time do you get out of bed how relentless are you what's your mindset how do you build a culture how do you hire and fire people all of those conversations we've had many times over the years but actually almost a pause and have a conversation about the almost infinite power of a human being whether we underestimate now the power that we have um what our future could look like if we took control of it the incredible optimism that delia smith has the fact that she believes and sees the good in everybody like it's very easy to argue that that is high performance us you know that self-actualization becoming the very best versions of ourselves isn't that high performance well that's what abraham maslow the the psychologist that coined that term self-actualization would tell us is is the panacea that's what we're all aiming for that once we've covered our needs of shelter and food and belonging then that idea of just being the person we were meant to be is a textbook definition of high performance and i think it's really refreshing to hear delia come and remind us of that wisdom and challenge us to seek answers ourselves.

56:26And I know that deep down, the book You Matter, which is a lifetime of learnings and lessons put into a book, right? She would have loved that to have sold millions of copies just like our cookbooks, right? But actually, many, many people have released books about how to make a great lasagna and the best way to do a Sunday roast or some incredible Yorkshire puddings, right? No one else has written what she's written with the mindset that she has and the set of beliefs that she has. And I think that that book will go on to be more impactful, possibly than anything else she's ever done. And it might take a long time, but it will get there because it puts people, it puts people at the centre of the universe.

57:08Yeah, and I was lucky enough when Dili was in the process of writing the book to meet with her and to chat about some of the ideas that she was doing and just her innate curiosity or willingness to go and explore lines of thought and to go and research topics that she was intrigued by is all contained there in that book. And I'd advocate that anybody that's interested in the conversation we've had, go and pick up a copy of You Matter and go and explore those trains of thought that Delia puts down on the page. I love the way she thinks. And I also love the fact that she sat down before the interview, before we started recording and said, I've listened to many of these episodes and I don't believe I can offer you any value.

57:50And here we are an hour or so later and the value is hopefully there for all to see. So you know what? If you've listened to this, reach out to Delia and let her know how valuable you found that conversation. I know I will be. So thanks, Damo. Thanks, mate. Loved it. Well, as always, I'd love to know what you made of that conversation. Don't forget, you can also join the millions who watch our content on YouTube. You can subscribe right there and you can see the conversations as well as listen to them. And I think sometimes it just gives you a little bit more of an insight into the emotion in the room when we cover all of these deep topics that we love to talk about.

58:25You can also download the High Performance app, see all the conversations there and also get daily boosts, which will take you closer to your own version of High Performance. Just go to the App Store and use your unique code H-P-A-P-P. Look, thank you so much for continuing to share these conversations. That is the way that this podcast channel can grow. and we can reach even more people. So do continue to spread the learnings from these conversations wherever you are in the world. Chase world-class basics. Don't get high on your own supply. And remember, high performance looks different to everyone.

58:57So chase your own version. Thanks for listening.

59:14Thank you.

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