E186 - Jill Scott: Inspire before you expire

0:00Would you like to see High Performance live in London on the 20th of April for one night only myself, Professor Damien Hughes, and some amazing special guests will be on stage at the London Palladium. For tickets, just go to thehighperformancepodcast.com. That's thehighperformancepodcast.com. I'd love to see you at the London Palladium, 20th of April, 2023. Hi there, I'm Jake Humphrey. This is High Performance. This podcast reminds you that it's within your ambition your purpose your story are all there or we just help unlock it by turning the lived experiences of the planet's highest performers into your life lessons so right now allow myself and professor damien hughes to speak to one of the coolest women on the planet so that she can be your teacher today this awaits you i wrote a poem actually when we're in the euros the end bit was we need to create an environment where everyone can thrive because it's not the splash you remember it's always the dive and I remember I was like the splash is obviously that gold medal but the dive is the journey the people you meet along the way and that's always been the most important thing when we got to the final I always remember we said look we know what we want to do want to inspire a nation we want to get the crowd behind us we just want to leave women's football in a better place going into that final I didn't feel like we were under pressure to win it because i felt like we'd already won in a sense i'm like we've got 90 000 people that we've given an opportunity to see an england germany final yeah obviously the gold was going to be the icing on the cake but there was no pressure that day it was weird i remember sitting there and i'm washing the dishes chris moyles and matt hancock's on a bike behind us pedaling to provide the water for me and boy george to wash dishes as he's humming karma chameleon and i'm like what the hell is going to.

1:58If you can look yourself in the mirror at the end of the day and say I've just done everything I can today to be a little bit better, then be proud of that. So we welcome Jill Scott, the Lioness, the Queen of the Jungle, all-round amazing person to the High Performance Podcast. This is a really fascinating conversation actually. We talk about the barriers that Jill faced as a young player. We speak about the culture in the England team. What did Serena Vigman do? to turn the lionesses into winners. Like I've not really heard this conversation happen anywhere else. And if you want to know what went on, what was said in the meetings, how they dealt with the hard times, what they did in the good times, then keep on listening.

2:39But we'll also talk about Jill. We'll talk about what it was like in the jungle. We'll talk about her business, her relationships, how she deals with people, the things that she still struggles with in life, the things that she's excited about regarding the future. And laying my cards on the table, I am a big Jill Scott fan. So in 2007, I just got married and I left to go to China for a month to follow the England women at the World Cup in China. I was working for BBC Sport at the time. And there was this very quiet person that didn't say to me. I'm joking. There was this young lady who was the life and soul of that England team.

3:15And this was really early in her international career. But I never forgot her. We kept in touch. I went and visited her up at Manchester City a couple of seasons ago. And she is a true leader. and there's so much for you to learn from this. So thank you so much for coming to another episode of the High Performance Podcast. Thank you for supporting us. We've just been nominated for two Radio Academy Awards and it means the world to us that people are recognising the work that we're doing to try and improve your mindset to help you live the life that you want. So let's do it then. It's time for you to get closer to your own version of high performance.

3:47Today's episode with former lioness and queen of the jungle, Jill Scott, comes next.

4:02well welcome welcome to high performance what is your definition of high performance oh straight in there with the question aren't you i think for me high performance i think you have to be on it every single day so i see high performance is kind of that result like you always want um and when you're having them high performance games and and stuff like that that's when it really matters but I think if you're not doing that every single day like in training every single day I was always about I could have a laugh off the pitch but as soon as I crossed that white line I always even the warm-up I'd be like I'm doing this to high performance went for a jog around the pitch I'd want to be at the front and yeah so I think high performance to me is don't just see it as an end goal it's got to be something you do every single day and does that manifest itself in every part of your life you know like when you go on I'm a celebrity are you thinking I need to win this like I want a game of football when you're setting up your entrepreneurial side of your life like your coffee shop are you thinking we need to be the most amazing coffee shop or when you're you know with your partner are you like I've got to be the very very best other half I can be like is this every part of your life or do you have areas I don't think so I think I am realistic to be honest when I went in the jungle I never thought about winning and I was a bit like that with with football as well obviously I wanted to win at all costs but it was never the forefront of my mind I think as my career went on I totally understood process and what I needed to get there and I always say to people like for me I'm like be the best version of yourself every single day so try and make good decisions be a good person and I remember having a manager and they always said if you can look yourself in the mirror at the end of the day and say I've just done everything I can today to be a little bit better then be proud of that so it's crazy because when you first ask that question I'm thinking at football I'd be the one that I'd make sure the water bottles were lined up and stuff like that I needed everything to kind of be in place at the side of the pitch because I used to think if you're tidy at the side of the pitch you'll be tidy on the pitch so in sport I was like that but away from sport I'm the most untidy person ever in the changing rooms my kit would be all over I go home I forget to put stuff in the wash basket and so it was weird like when I was in sport I was different to when I was at home 100 % so where's the line then um that white line I think the line was was the line as soon as I stepped over that white line training games I would literally just run myself into the ground because you said something that was intriguing there that you said I wanted to win at all costs but you learnt balance.

6:40Yeah. And I think that's a real hard tightrope act to walk. Would you explain what you learnt about that? I think because obviously I look through like back over my career, 16 years at England, one gold medal, my time at Manchester City, eight years, we won a few FA Cups. I won the league once in 20 years of playing in it. So I think throughout my career, I wanted to win at all costs, but I knew it wasn't realistic to win all the time. so I think it was lessons that I learned throughout and there was games where everything went right we had the best performance ever and we just didn't win but I think I just understood that there was a process to get there through losing I learned through losing do you mind sharing then some of this process with us because we know that so many people listen to this and they do what we call delaying their own happiness they think they will be happy when they get the promotion the big car the big house they retire grandkids whatever it is and then they realize they get to the end of their life and none of those things gave them great happiness yeah the process of life is where is where the joy lives so let's go back to like when you first learned this when you were no longer sort of goal oriented i think i remember our first manager hope powell at england i was 18 19 getting my first cap for england and i remember us sitting us all down and in one of the meetings she was like you need to be obsessed in order to be successful you need to be obsessed and I think now that I've retired I realised how obsessed that I was so for example you're watching Netflix it hit 10 o 'clock and you really want to watch that next episode but I knew I had to go to bed because I had training the next day I'd have a cup of tea it's eight o 'clock it hit nine ten oh I want another one no you shouldn't it's a lot of caffeine might keep you awake you've got training tomorrow and I think when I retired I remember staying up till half 11 and having two cups of tea and I was like oh my god I'm being a rebel but I did just become completely obsessed with it and I think in them early days there was a lot of moments where I was like how can football fit into life I was traveling from Sunderland to Liverpool I was still seeing my friends I was going out with college and stuff like that but then as the years went on it was like how does life fit into football and you do end up missing like a lot of things I missed family weddings christens i never really could go to friends birthday parties nothing basically football became my obsession my my life and i think that just gradually happened it's an interesting subject isn't it sacrifice when it comes to high performance yeah yeah and i'm interested as somebody that's lived both that pre-obsession and then that and then that obsessive life yeah what does it give you and what does it take away oh it gives you absolutely everything like the friendships I've made through football like I said that I wrote a poem actually when we're in the Euros and my last line of the poem it was it was for the team going into the tournament just about our values yeah some of them but I can't share all of them because I feel like it was our like team's personal thing but the end bit was we need to create an environment where everyone can thrive because it's not the splash you remember it's always the dive and I remember I was like the splash is obviously that gold medal but the dive is the journey the people you meet along the way and that's always been the most important thing to me and I think when you retire yeah it's great I've got that gold medal but the friendships I've got like from here I'm going to meet two of the Arsenal girls we're going to grab a coffee and you know like it's it's them things along the way that definitely mean the most and I always thought what would I feel like when I got that gold medal or when you get that success.

10:20And it is not that it's an empty feeling, but as a human being, you get a nice car. You always want a better car, don't you? You get a nice house when you get in the bigger house. And it's like, where do you go from that gold medal? And you always want more. And it's really weird now. Like I can't watch a final back. It's like too much emotion in a good way. It's kind of like the whole journey of it came to a close that day. And even though it was like the best day ever, it's all almost like sad that that was the end of the journey as well are you happy then with the career you had or do you have a mind that still thinks only one league title i could have won two could have won three or four actually how does that work out in your mind oh no i'm i'm so satisfied with it i am so satisfied if you told me when i was 18 signing for everton um that i'd go on to play for everton uh play for city for eight years obviously play for england for 16 years playing four World Cups, three Euros, two Olympics.

11:16Like I would never have even believed you. So I think, yeah, I'm so satisfied. And I think that's why now I'm kind of like at peace with it. So that's what you've done. Yeah. What we're fascinated with on high performance is how you've done it, right? Many, many girls will grow up wanting to be professional footballers. Not only will they not get to be a professional, they won't have the longevity and the success that you've had. So when I say to you, how did you do it? Yeah. What springs to mind? I think commitment and dedication when you speak about sacrifice as well. Like, yeah, there's definitely sacrifices along the way.

11:53And I read a lot on social media sometimes when they go, sacrifice, you play football, like it's the best job in the world. And it is, but you miss out on a lot of family time. But yeah, you just have to be totally committed and you have to just be like, that's what comes with the job. That's what I have to do. Making good decisions all the time. And one thing that I speak about a lot is as a young player you need to work out what your routine is and what works for you so I use quite a bit me and Steph Houghton obviously we grew up together played at Sunderland together she went on to Captain England where she went to play for Arsenal I went to Everton and then we regrouped at Man City and we kind of had a similar journey but we are such different people so we'd finish a game of football she would analyse it all she'd be having meetings with the coaches very organised say about going to meet and she's had a pen and paper whereas I would finish a game of football I wouldn't even watch her back I'd know what I'd done well what I needed to do better and then I'd just be straight on to the next one so our routines were like completely different I can still tell you now her pre-match meal was salmon and potatoes whereas mine would just vary depending on how I felt on the day but one thing that I say is you have to find your routine what works for you if she tried to be like me it wouldn't have worked for her and if I tried to be like her it wouldn't have worked for me but you also have to take a lot of responsibility so if you're taking responsibility for your routine you have to be accountable for your performance on a Sunday so yeah let me do this and the coach is like yeah okay I'll give you a bit of leeway but you have to put in a performance on a Sunday to justify your routine.

13:27You reminded me of I saw a quote recently you were saying on social media i saw a quote from some american college coach yeah talking about how lazy people don't understand obsessed people and obsessed people can't understand lazy people they're just speaking a different language and as you're describing the experiences that you've had of the diversity of different people's approaches how would you get others to buy into this message of obsessiveness or of responsibility for your own routine? I never really was one that would have a go at people and stuff like that. I just think as much as you want to do that, they have to want to help themselves.

14:07And there was players that I'd seen that would make these choices and then they'd move on to another team. And without being negative, I was like, the same thing's just going to happen again. And it would. And then they'd go to another team and then it would again. And you'd never have a quiet word and just... Well, yeah, with younger players, sometimes I was like, oh, maybe we're out on Friday, shouldn't have gone out on Friday. But it's almost like I did find that with the very talented players, they thought, I'm just going to be able to beat it. I'm really good. I'm still going to have a good game.

14:35And sometimes they did, but eventually it will catch up with you. If you're trying to play club and international football, no way. Anybody who performs consistently over a number of years, internationally and club-wise, the lifestyle, they must be making good choices. I don't feel like you can take a shortcut in that sense. No way. Reminds me of that James Clear quote, which is, good habits show themselves today, bad habits show themselves in the future. You can get away with it for a bit with bad habits, but not forever. So true, and it's the other way around as well. I'd see players that would be working so hard in training and they just weren't getting the results on a Sunday.

15:14And I was like, look, you'll benefit from this maybe four or five months down the line. And I did. That was something I learned in my career. I was like, just because training was going well, I felt like that kind of change would happen further down the line. So you just have to stick with it. And that's what annoys us now about football managers. I'm like, we'll get rid of football managers after six, seven, eight, nine months. and I'm like, how can somebody go into a football team? First of all, they inherit a bunch of players that aren't even theirs. Secondly, they're trying to implement these standards.

15:46They need to change everything day to day and then they expect these instant results. And it's one of my pet hates. I suddenly will get rid of them. And if you look at Arteta at Arsenal, he could have been gone and look how well he's doing now. Klopp at Liverpool. Yeah. Because you've been into some successful cultures, both domestically and internationally. professionally how long does it take to turn around the culture in your experience well when I first went to Manchester City that was when the game was kind of just turning professional I do think Manchester City women's team definitely set the standard in this is what professional football looks like and I remember we had a three-year plan so that first year we actually got a league cup win we won the cup which if you ask us how I can't even tell you how and I'm sure everybody involved It was one of the best days of my life.

16:35But how we won that trophy, I will never know. The second year, we then changed a few things in terms of a few players out, a few players in. And then the third year was when we actually did the treble. We did the FA Cup, the League and the League Cup. And that journey, I think it did take three years, but it wasn't a case of let's get rid of 11 players and bring 11 in. It was just bit by bit. And it also wasn't a case of just getting rid of people. there was players in that squad who I'm not speaking out of turn but there were average players had never played at that level and I remember our manager got another 50 % out of each and every one of them but there's a point you made there that I want to go back and explore if you can when that example of you've seen managers get 50 % out of average players and made them good or good players that made great yeah and as somebody that will that you've been witness to that you want to go into that world what did they do I think probably in that time when I first joined Man City we started learning about all the little details because the detail runs from the men's all the way through to the academy the women's team like everything so I think we started to get an insight into that but like I've seen bits where they'd probably say oh can you receive back foot and like break a line and you'd see a player do it and they were like oh that was brilliant and you know just give them a pat on the back for that little thing and you could see the player would just lift and then just get more and more confident with kind of each game and then also trusting them giving them game time as well and just making them feel like I remember at that time it was quite a difficult time because we brought in five internationals I think it was me Tony Duggan Steph Houghton, Karen Bardsley, Izzy Christensen and we would train during the day but the rest of the team was still working and training on a night so we'd train in the day and then we'd meet up on the night and them girls could have easily been like not jealous but like oh look they're getting this special treatment and whatever else but I think we all just came together and was like this is the standard of being an international player they'd never been opened up to that this is a training you have to do and I think that kind of then helped bring them other players along but then also the international players being patient, trusting the process.

18:54There was no hierarchy in that sense between the girls and yeah, I think it just kind of worked but I think it's not about just saying, oh, you're not at the standard and just like, what can I get out of them? Like almost like an orange, like just squeezing every last bit of juice out of them. That's going to help the team ultimately. And how did you grow with the game? Because let's take, you know, a young Jill Scott, women's football wasn't professional. and then it kind of became should we call it semi-professional but as you've just explained half the squad are still doing normal jobs and those that are playing football they're struggling to pay their way because the wages were low and there might be a few hundred people watching a game at a weekend to where we are today really professionalised tens of thousands of people record-breaking crowds terrestrial television coverage you can't be the same footballer you were 20 years ago in the new environment yeah so what's the secret for people listening to this who we all live in a world of constant change and fluctuation how do you grow with it i think i try to be the same person which i know you probably can't be but what i try to do was when everything was changing around us and especially in them last few years there was players coming in like lauren hemp kira walsh georgia stanway and i was like wow these are very good players technically very very good and i was like jill never in a million years are you going to reach their technical standard I knew it no matter what I did if I was on the grass every single day just doing technical work so I almost had to be like just strip it all back what do you bring to the team why have you played for England for 15 years and I knew kind of my commitment my dedication my engine when I was on the pitch I knew I was good at the basics I was never going to take on two players and score a top corner so I think I just always try to be like this is what you bring to a game this is what you're good at and just keep trying to bring that so although I had to kind of go with the way that the game was going in kind of an ironic sense I almost had to hold on to my strengths that I brought and yeah it was difficult and I think I had to fake a lot of it to be honest because people used to go as an older player oh she's not going to get nervous she's played in four world cups she's played olympics like she'll be fine and I was always chilled in the changing rooms I'd be the one dancing and people thought oh she's not going to be nervous for these games but I wasn't used to the like playing in front of all these big crowds every single game but suddenly there's like 10 ,000 20 ,000 30 ,000 like at the club games so it was different for me there was a lot more pressure I felt that pressure a lot in my last few years a lot because one of the great mantras of sports psychology is like play the game and not the occasion yeah how did you learn to do that then yeah I did do that and again it was just switching on to what can you bring to the game I used to have a little mental routine before the game Jill you know when Steph gets the ball you're going to check inside open up the pocket for the winger you're going to do this when the ball's wide you're going to make sure you you make the box if the ball's on the right hand side you're going to stop the counter and I used to just have these like five or six things which I knew I could do.

22:04I knew I could do it so I could kind of hang my hat on them. Those things you mentioned are their specific football things, right? Yeah. What about the actual Jill, you've got this, you deserve to be on this stage, you bring the experience to the table. What was that self-talk like? Yeah, I had a lot of self-doubt, I think. Upon reflection, I did have a lot of self-doubt. There was never a time when I played with Farrah Williams, Rachel Yankee, Kelly Smith. I had imposter syndrome. I was like, what is this tall, skinny kid from Sunderland doing playing with these players it was almost like I'd entered a game of FIFA and I you know when you can draft yourself in I felt like that and then even my last few years at City I mentioned the players I was playing with Lucy Bronze as you say Steph Kira Georgia Stanway and I was like in my head I probably didn't think I was good enough even though I had this kind of backup of achievements and whatever else but I also think as well that's why I did okay do you know what I mean like that worked for me going back to routine that was my routine like I stayed humble I probably didn't think I was good enough so therefore worked a lot harder and almost my hard work was what got us on the pitch so in a way it's kind of like maybe it's not the way you should be thinking but it worked for me see but I tell you that like because we have this conversation regularly about imposter syndrome because we feel it ourselves but then I question whether imposter syndrome actually is a syndrome because that implies it's something permanent whereas I think it's contextual there are moments where you might feel an imposter yeah and when you explore it you often go it's because maybe I don't feel I've got the ability or maybe I can't cope with the demands or of what's expected or the consequences of getting it wrong or too severe and I think what you're describing there is that you felt like an imposter at certain moments yeah but what it forced you to do is say so how do I improve my ability level so that I can feel comfortable in that dressing room and know that I've got something to offer yeah because you have players don't you I kind of when I look at a football team I think you have players that are like consistently maybe a seven every game and then you have your players that you're going to get and it's usually wingers and forwards that you're going to get a nine out of ten or a ten out of ten but you've also got the risk of getting a three four out of ten and I think it's like finding that balance and I did think I was one of them players that as I say I probably just bring the consistency and I remember actually reading something that Gary Neville said years ago like going back about 20 years ago and he said look I knew that Ronaldo and that could probably get away with cheating the system every now and then maybe Ronaldo's probably not a good example because I know he was very to the book but they were good enough that they could probably get away with it he knew he had to do absolutely everything to get a 7 out of 10 performance for Man United every week and I thought that was really interesting and then it got us thinking that with them star players, can you give them a little bit more leeway?

25:03I remember a manager saying to us, someone had complained that one of the girls was eating a chocolate bar at the service station and like, well, we're not allowed chocolate bars and I remember them being like, yeah, but she got a hat-trick on Sunday and I remember thinking, should it be the same for everyone or can it be a bit bespoke? And as I say before, as long as you're accountable to your performance on a weekend, I was like watching I eat this Twix and I was like you deserve it I was like you deserve it you performed yeah and then I went and bought my apple should we get our coffee yeah let's get a coffee there's a nice relevance as well to us continuing the conversation talking about coffee as it appears in the room because this is one of the things that you've done since retirement here it comes yeah well let's try this coffee and see what we think okay let's go for it it's nice good actually nice yes now if that's confusing some people going why have i got jill scott on the high performance podcast trying coffee well it's because we're not fixed beings right we can wear many hats and one of the hats you now wear is a coffee shop owner yeah um what's the name of the yeah so it's called box to box coffee um it was kind of probably a bit naive in the beginning i was like in covert time so my partner had moved from birmingham to manchester and basically she was kind of looking for a job and just after COVID started helping out at a coffee shop and then there was an opportunity for them to grow their coffee shop and I was like, oh, why don't we just do it?

26:28But yeah, she always says I then nicked off to football and left her to run this shop. I think she did 97 days in a row. So I think she still hates us for it now. But the shop's going well, so that's good. And I've been in, so I'll give a Chip Advisor review. I thought it was excellent. the coffee was very good but the service was first rate oh thank you now the reason why this you said that not me the reason why this is relevant is because you know you can't learn all the things you learned in the sporting world and then not employ them in retirement when you're running a business yeah so tell us what have you learned from your long and illustrious career that is used daily at box to box oh that is actually a very good question i think loads of things i think sometimes there's so much going on in sport in work in general and it's kind of like really tunneling in on kind of each task at a time so you can't change the world can you it's like right i remember going into the coffee shop and i didn't really like the coffee machine that was in there and in my head i was like right let's just go and get the best coffee machine there is and just put it in there had no knowledge of coffee whatsoever but I was like right we need to make sure that we can make a good coffee on the machine that's the the biggest thing suddenly I was like we need to be doing brunches and we need to be doing everything else but I think as long as we made a good coffee we were a coffee shop that's the first thing then that started to go well then can we add some cakes a few cinnamon buns and stuff like that right that's going well now we'll add something else to the menu and I think that's definitely something I adopted through my football career because I always thought at times there was players where a manager would sometimes just love a player so they'd go from here and they'd suddenly be up here but what I found was because maybe they hadn't gone through the foundations of building through the career if the manager then didn't like them they could just put them straight back down there and I think that's one thing I learned about business and sport is that if you work you wait to the top and it's all on you and you get them little achievements along the way I feel like someone can't then just put you all the way like to the bottom because you've got these foundations I've got a tattoo that's a step-by-step day-by-day mile-by-mile which is a Whitney Houston song and that's how I kind of see life you have to just take it what you're describing there is the power of patience and I think that after we you spoke about the impatience for football managers turn it around or we get the sack and you know or people wouldn't be in the first team without working their way up through the through the ranks yeah tell us what you've learned about patience and then how we can all get better at it i think not you want that instant result obviously everybody does but like not kind of like craving it like as you say finding the enjoyment in the day-to-day my biggest thing was being happy if I was happy at a football club I was performing and probably in the last few stages of my career I wasn't happy there was there's things that's going to happen isn't there's managers that are going to come in maybe not like your clash maybe it's it's a case if you's both wanted too much and it just doesn't work for whatever reason and I remember being at a point where I was like right I'm not enjoying this and it was one of them moments where I had a target in my head if I wanted to go to the Olympics at the time I really wanted to go to the Olympics I knew I was in my last couple of years of my career and I remember being like well you can just stay here and complain that you're not enjoying it everything's rubbish like it's not going well you're not getting played etc etc or you can go and do something about it so I remember being like I need to go out on loan and it was quite a big thing because I'd been at City for like six seven years obviously that was my comfort zone I felt like I'd built who I was there and I literally went out on loan and I had like four months to try and you go into a club and without being disrespectful Everton were a bit lower down in the league to us and they're expecting to get this player from Man City they're expecting you to just be good like change things around straight away and it's kind of a lot of pressure but I felt like them kind of loan moves went well and I think it's one of them things where you have to enjoy the day-to-day in order to get the end result and And for me, probably in that period, I did everything I could and give everything to Everton.

30:52But I had kind of this selfish ambition of I wanted to go to the Olympics. So I think, yeah, definitely that day to day thing for me is so important. This is an interesting point in your career now, isn't it? You know, we've sort of spoken about what it was like as you were coming through. And there you are at City getting older. I'm sure you don't mind me saying that. You use the phrase that the word old is in the word gold, right? Yeah, yeah. so you're getting older you've seen all these amazingly talented young players come through then Vigman gets the England job right yeah and at that point I don't know whether you felt differently but I remember because obviously we've known each other a long time I remember watching from the outside thinking please call her up for this squad like she deserves to be in this squad and when I saw you were in I was buzzing right yeah what was it like from your point of view were you way more confident than me that everything was going to be fine no it was the most nervous I've ever been from the moment Serena came in because again you have to kind of reinvent yourself don't you by not trying too hard so you have to kind of trust that they're going to see what you bring to the team but again it's up to the manager isn't it it's their decision and going into the Euros I had a knee injury so I was actually at St George's Park for three, four weeks before the squad started the training so we all met up as a squad there was 28 of us and then that was getting cut down to 23 so I was there three weeks before that and it was hard because they were trying to see that my knee was okay so it was literally just me training and about five or six coaches or that just watching you and there was so much pressure on oh is my knee okay and I was struggling it was a bit like touch and go at times but oh wow me and Nikita Paris were speaking recently about that day when we got told about selection I'd had three flat white coffees because we'd had a training game on the morning and obviously the squad's picked but in your head you're like come on it's last chance to like try and make a good impression and then I remember just entering and I was like I think I had like caffeine like over overdose of caffeine I sat down and she was just like you look so scared and I was like yeah I am and then I was like right tell us yes or no and then obviously it was a yes and yeah I was just I was so happy did she tell you the reason why you'd been selected yeah she did but I think as soon as I heard that I couldn't tell you what the reason was because as soon as I heard that yes I think I was just like so happy but I must say with Serena and even after I've retired and everything I've done a couple of events with her and people will obviously always talk to us and they'll say oh Jill you were the joker of the dressing room you were so good for team morale, what you brought off the pitch.

33:33And Serena hasn't known us for that long and she would always stop them and say, Jill was a good player, you know, like she'd always try and say to people, she can't play football as well. And I always thought that was like such a nice thing that she did believe in my football as well. Can we talk about the impact that Serena had then? Yeah. Because it's not dissimilar, is it, to the men's England team where it felt like close, many occasions, sometimes really disappointing tournaments, other times good tournaments, but never winning them. And then suddenly in comes this coach and I'm fascinated to know, how did she first introduce herself to the team?

34:10How did she first introduce herself? And were you all immediately brought in to this new sort of England approach? I think she just had her way and she just kind of set that out from the beginning. She wasn't scared to make decisions. How would you describe her way? I think our way is winning I think every decision is based on winning and don't get as wrong she's a lovely person we used to sit I could have a coffee with that like away from the training pitch chat about family and everything like that but I think when it came to the game that's what it is but what I love about Serena is she's very consistent so it's not like player A is going to get special treatment player B isn't it's just everybody is just consistent and yeah I've got so much respect for her like it's kind of like she just simplified everything so I feel like she trusts all our members of staff she trusts all our players everybody knows their role, knows their job she's not going and trying to like overpower the physio because she knows that that's their strength and that's what they're doing there was just no grey areas it was like everybody could keep their energy whether you're a player, a member of staff for the job that they had to bring to the team So when you say about consistency, that's consistency of behaviours.

35:29And that's one of our favourite questions around trademark behaviours or non-negotiables. So what would you say were the three behaviours that she was consistent and that didn't compromise on? So for training, the same thing every day. She used to go out a bit earlier. She used to have a kickabout with there'd be three girls just playing keep you up. She always did that. And then we used to have like our little run. And then we used to have the same structure to the session. so her consistent behaviors one of her main one was a consistency in what she did and one thing I always liked as well about her was say for example Fran Kirby was missing training so you get out to the training pitch and everyone's like where's Fran what's happened to Fran like is she okay blah blah blah at the beginning of every session she'd be like right girls this is what's happening this is the session Fran's not training she's got a little pull on her hamstring so and so's inside because of this so and so's got family issues and she'd just tell you everything and there was just no like oh why is this happening or why is that happening, everybody could just focus kind of on their job so yeah, transparency definitely and just very honest as well, I remember going into the Euros she sat down, she had a meeting with everybody, I think I'd only started two games under and she was like you're not going to be a start of this tournament and I was thinking oh really like obviously I knew but the fact that you had the conversation and kind of give you that your moment your time to have a conversation there's so many things about Serena that I admire even in the games against Spain where we're this close to going out she's just so confident that she trusts her process her staff's process and she was just so chilled I'd love to just shout out the founding partners of the High Performance Podcast Lotus Cars They were there at the very beginning.

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38:18What's the secret then to this Euro success that we all think we know but we don't actually know? Like what really do you put it down to? Well I was a bit like that. I remember being like what's been the difference and I'm not we've had some great managers like obviously I loved having Phil Neville. I thought he was a great he was a very good like man, woman manager. But when I've actually reflected I think Serena had a plan for everything and I always remember being part of teams and you know what, you sit down with a new manager you get the flip chart paper out we need to be confident, we need to have belief we need to win but how do you get belief?

38:54and it wasn't until, it seems so obvious but later in my career I was like you only get belief by actually doing something so I believe I can do it because I've done it so we'll beat Germany so then when we're in front of 90 ,000 at Wembley girls, we've already beaten them we'll beat them in February let's just do it again I'm just close to that. If you don't beat them in February. Yeah, exactly. And then you're thinking, oh no, it was only February when they got the better off. So she's brave as well to make those calls. I think she planned for everything. There was one game where she put one of the coaches in charge of the game.

39:25So she took a step back and was like, the assistant coach is going to take care of everything today. So we did that for a friendly match. And what was the reason she explained for that? Well, obviously she didn't predict this because she'd be a genius, but she actually got COVID in the tournament. so there was one game where she wasn't with us and I was like oh this is familiar he's done this before and everything was fine so I do think she put nothing down to luck or chance she planned for this, she did And how did you all deal with the expectation? I mean I have a seven and a nine year old Damien has young kids as well they've never been more excited about a football tournament than they were not at the beginning but once England were in the quarters And then suddenly, like, England are in a final.

40:09Like, the whole nation stopped for this game. What was it like in the bubble? The whole squad and in the bubble, they were so relaxed. And I remember being like, wow, these young players, they just seem so relaxed. I'm just going to go out, play football, going to go back to the hotel. We did have our own little bubble. We stayed in the same place. She also liked routine. So there was a time where we were meant to change hotels and she kept us in the same hotel. Because it's not just luck or chance that you were relaxed in a very unnatural situation. Processes were put in place. I don't know whether she had you looking at your social media or seeing the press or knowing what was going on.

40:46Yeah, well, we had, there was a couple of the older players who would spoke about what we're going to do about social media because we'd done that in the past. Are people going to stay on social media or they're going to come off it? And again, we didn't dictate what you had to do because I think a lot of younger players do rely on it. so to take it away from them might have affected their performance in that sense because they're used to it every single day. So we had a meet in the middle, but what we did was we didn't dictate, but look, this is the benefits. Some people told stories of tournaments in the past they'd been to and how social media had affected them.

41:19So we'd give them kind of all these stories and then everyone made their own decision. But was that player-led? Yeah, player-led, totally player-led. So Serena asked you to do that. you did no we we kind of I don't know if she maybe said what we're doing about social media but you totally left it up to the players and she was like if you decide to come off stay on it's totally your decision so that was good but yeah the relaxed environment I remember we're just it was like we kept like we obviously we kept winning but then when we got to the final I always remember we said look we know what we want to do want to inspire a nation we want to get the crowd behind mind us, we just want to leave women's football in a better place.

41:58And I remember by that semi-final when we won it, I felt like we'd done that. The crowds were so supportive. Even the first day at Old Trafford, I felt like, you know what, we don't have to bang the drum about women and girls playing football. It's like, we can actually just go out and enjoy this tournament. And I feel like that's what happened. And going into that final, I didn't feel like we were under pressure to win it, because I felt like we'd already won in a sense. I'm like, we've got 90 ,000 people that we've given an opportunity to see an England-Germany final, yeah obviously the gold was going to be the icing on the cake but there was no pressure that day, it was weird.

42:33I love it because that's a brilliant articulation of you know when again it's a regular feature with our guests we talk about outcome goals that sense of purpose, performance goals, how you measure it and then the process and what you've described is skipping the performance and going straight to the outcome and going we've already won we've already inspired a nation Serena said that to us because obviously she had a lot of success in the past and she said what does our success look like and she knew that she couldn't stand there at the beginning of the euros and say well it's only going to be deemed a successful tournament if we get the gold because there's so many little bits where you're like you just can't you can't subjective yeah exactly like so what did she say before she just said like basically about leaving women's game this was before the tournament in a better place getting the fans behind us i remember i being like after the first game interact with the fans get them she stopped us after one of our friendly games and said i didn't really see people clapping the crowd before the game um and she was like we need to do that more you know like get them behind us and we'd already always been told don't play it to the occasion so really focus when we get out there for the warm-up like you do really focus don't acknowledge the crowd till the end of the game but her spin was let's get them behind us they're our 12th player and I remember after the first game being like oh we're dancing around we're doing these laps of the pitch we're singing we're dancing I'm thinking it's only the first game and we're getting carried away but it just worked the crowds loved it and then we got more support the next game but one thing that sort of worries me about the women's game now is because I think you're in such an amazing position for what you've done the legacy of how you've left like women's football in such a healthy place is almost what happens next because I worry about players sort of then adopting some of the stuff you see in the men's game do you know what I mean where success then starts going to people's heads or people start becoming a bit more removed or they become a bit more dismissive of the impact that they can have yeah how do you protect what you've created and nurture it rather than lose it yeah it is difficult I feel like these girls now will have a tough task because I start to feel a little bit at the end of the career but it's kind of like you used to be able to get around sign autographs after a club game go to everybody that was there sign and that was always kind of the women's game but the men's game couldn't ever do that because of the numbers of people and everything else it just wouldn't have been realistic so it would always be like oh the women are more friendly and stuff like that but we had a lot smaller numbers to deal with there is going to be that change of look there's going to be more people at the games and there is going to be things that they're going to have to step away from because of safety because of time just things that's impossible to do but one thing i can say about the the england girls um the girls i played with in my career the younger girls they're so humble like they don't even realise how good they are and but they are good they are very good and I think I think they're very good people as well so as long as they can now keep that and then obviously pave the way for the next lot I think that's something we can always keep in the women's game because I don't think you do have players that are ahead of themselves I think they're just they are a humble group because even though they might not have had the journey when it wasn't professional they've learnt all about it, they've listened they've asked questions, I remember Chloe Kelly and Lauren Hemp sitting down with me it was the third group game of the Euros and they were like, what was it like when you played in front of a big crowd at the Olympics and I was thinking to myself, in my head I was like, well you're going to find out very very soon but they still wanted to ask them questions and find out so I think that's something that I hope the women's game holds on to.

46:28Can we talk about your role in the final? Yeah, swear a bit Well there is a bit of swearing but there's big pressure here because you would have known that this is your last tournament for England you would have known that this has been a stellar career but without lifting a trophy of this magnitude yeah what were you thinking as you're standing on the side of the pitch getting ready to come on particularly with England a goal up right you came on up 1-0 so I came out it was 1-0 and I got told to warm up and then they scored didn't they so I didn't think I was then going to go on because I thought maybe she'll want to bring on like a goal scorer or something but I still went on what was her message so basically I don't think she actually said anything to us at the side of the pitch because I kind of knew that my job was kind of like just to settle the ship like in kind of a lot of situations and I think obviously we're 1-1 extra time anything can happen but yeah I felt pressure when I was when I was watching the game I was the worst person on that subs bench because I was watching that game as an England fan all them years like Mike Lone against Argentina like David Beckham getting sent off that game like I'm a massive England fan like I see Gary Neville now all them games at right back like just totally invested and then it's almost like I had the perfect day because I'm an England fan so nervous for this final just wanting to win and then I get to enter the game it's a weird feeling is that your FIFA moment again yeah FIFA moment again I'm like you're so humble it's ridiculous by the way I'll sub myself on in these kind of last 30 minutes but I think I knew that the midfield Kira Walsh, Georgia, Stanway like they'd played a lot of minutes a lot of minutes and I knew kind of not that they were tiring because I didn't think they were tiring but I knew they were going to be tired there was even if Mo Farah had been playing he would have been tired so I was like Jill just go on add some legs to the midfield literally put in a lot of running smash people I knew I was going to smash people and just kind of break it up and I felt like when I look back on them like 35 40 minutes I felt like I did a job and and did well obviously brought a bit of passion which the girls had already did you have a message as you came on did you say anything to anyone no I don't think I did actually I think Leah always says that I kept turning around going come on girls concentrate concentrate keep your head and then she was like and then you were the one telling everyone to f off on the bitch but um yeah I just remember like having to manage a little bit behind we kept the ball in the corner for a long time there was a moment where so when I came to the five sides at the end of training I knew that was never like my thing I didn't really enjoy the five sides I'm just going to sit at the back give the ball to the the creative players because it's not really a game where you can show you're running and stuff and I remember this moment in the final and the girls have just got the ball in the corner for it must have been about eight nine minutes like and I'm watching it and I'm like, this is just like me watching all them five-a-side games throughout the Euros.

49:30So yeah, I kind of, I came on, I was talking. But again, it goes back to, I knew what I could bring to the game. And as soon as I stepped on that pitch, I actually felt like really comfortable. I knew my job and knew what I could bring. Did you ever have a moment where you came out of process to appreciate the magnitude of the outcome of what was going on? Not in that moment, Not them, 35 minutes was just total focus on the game, total. But in the tournament, I got to enjoy the occasion a lot more. There was about two games, I think. Two games that I didn't come on in and I felt like I could just like, I probably knew I wasn't going to come on in the couple as the game went on and I just, I kept looking around and going, God, look at women's football now.

50:13I did have a few moments. Is that what you were thinking? Yeah, I did. I did. Old Trafford, when I walked out at Old Trafford, I remember we were doing a half time warm up and I was like all these people are here for women's football and it just made us so happy the final whistle goes you've won the Euros you've done it on home soil you've played your part what goes through your mind? I've still got goosebumps now when you say that literally literally you know what I ran straight over to Kira who'd been playing obviously centre midfield and I think I just give her the biggest hug I thought she was absolutely fantastic throughout the tournament and I think I just said I just love you thank you so much and I was like yeah I can't even put them feelings into words I really can't I was like just won the Euros and I stayed out on that pitch for about two hours after I was like I just don't want to leave this moment but you don't want to give cliche answers but it's like everything that you've ever wanted just happened but you know what the biggest thing now is I don't reflect on that moment as much like as I say I haven't watched the game back but I'm just so happy that now we have a bit of fight and talk as young girls and like women that our girls can't play football well actually we're one of one of you Rose and I think them young girls can just step into the school field and they can play with the boys and there'll be girls playing as well and there's just no questions asked and I get so many dads coming up to us and some of them will go can I get a picture for my daughter and the mate will go he hasn't got a daughter but there's so many that come up to us and they're like you know what my daughter plays now and they're like I'm going to kill you because I've got to stand on the side of the pitch now because I've got my son on the morning and then my daughter on the afternoon and honestly it just makes us like so happy so happy who was the first person you called you know what the first person I actually text was Mo Marley who was my first England manager at under 19s and who'd give us the opportunity at Everton when it wasn't full-time she literally she even like I remember at Everton she was like I'll cover your expenses a couple of she was just so nice so nice and I just sent her a text and I said we did it and we wouldn't have without you and then that was it I didn't send another text I don't even think I spoke to my family till after but I just wanted in that moment the only person I wanted to text was more I would say 50 percent 60 70 percent of that squad that won the Euros had been coached by Mo and I just felt like, yeah, I feel like she's the most humble person you'll ever meet but I just wanted to kind of be like, this is, without your hard work, this wouldn't have happened.

52:45I love the characters like Mo that work in the shadows that don't get that acknowledgement but I love more the fact that you remembered her. Because then moments wouldn't happen without them people, would they? And I think that's what we spoke about a lot. That gold medal, we were kind of fortunate and lucky enough that we got to go on the pitch and win it but god there's a whole generation before us as well but i think that like i was lucky enough to work with uh tracy neville when the roses won the won the commonwealth gold and one of the things that tracy was very good at doing was tapping into this sense of purpose the idea of in their case it was breaking the glass ceiling of women's sport in this country and it sounds like that's what was a big theme for you guys during the Euros and I think people will be listening to this and going it maybe sounds like a nice catchphrase or or it's almost a nice narrative but would you explain why it's such a powerful fuel for a team to have this sense of purpose I think because when you're the ones that are representing England I think you do I remember 2019 World Cup I was like we're going out playing this quarterfinal if we reach the semi-final I remember we had 11.9 million people tuned in for that semi-final so going out into the quarterfinal you're like if we can win we get another game on TV you get all these young girls young boys families watching women's football so you did feel like an added pressure whereas I'm sure with the men obviously they want to win of course they do but they know that that fan base is still going to be there whether there's a semi-final or there's not going to be one so you kind of had that added pressure but that's why it's so important because you know what your journey was tough when you were younger I was like six seven eight years old I was in tears week by week of parents saying kick that girl like because she's beaten their precious son or whatever and it was tough it was tough like you had to get two three buses just to get yourself to training at the age of like 10 11 because it wasn't like your parents didn't have like three cars back in the day there was other kids and everything else and you were always safe but it wasn't an easy journey and you loved it and you enjoyed it but the fact that like I don't begrudge now that young girls will have them opportunities they can sign a professional contract now with clubs like Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Villa, Everton at the age of 17 18 like that just would never have happened so I think that's why it means so much you've broken down doors that others now walk through quite happily which is the most impressive legacy of all so you go and win a trophy in the summer and then you go and win another trophy at the end of the year um I know it's like it's a reality tv show okay yeah but there is something in that you know when you were doing well as a footballer that was you playing a role of a footballer what does it feel like when you get voted for by the public just for being you yeah it meant a lot actually when when I got out I was out of the jungle I was like really overwhelmed by the support really I haven't really sat down and like reflected on it too much but yeah to think that people were actually voting for you to win and you know what I've had so many nice moments like I think I'm a celebrity there's a lot of the older generation watch the program and I've been like shopping and like older people will just come and they'll just give us a hug and they're like I just I feel like people feel like they know you because you're in people's living rooms for like 21 nights like in a row so people feel like they get to know you but in a way I've really enjoyed that because I love people I love having conversations and I feel like people now know that I am approachable so I feel like they'll come over have a conversation and yeah it was a weird experience it was it was a crazy experience in what way just i think it was a lot tougher than i thought it was going to be like you're in the middle of a jungle uh the food situation you get less than like a thousand calories a day so you're very depleted of energy and you have to keep each other going because people will have good days bad days and i don't know just weird moments like i remember sitting there and i'm washing the dishes chris moyles and matt hancock's on a bike behind us it's the most random thing to say exactly peddling to provide the water for me and boy george to wash dishes as he's humming karma chameleon and i'm like what the hell is going on i feel like i've never done drugs but if you did that would be a scene of like being high on drugs so there was just so many moments where i was like what is going on but i've made such good friends such good friends because everyone says that when you come off these programs i mean really have and i think one thing is you don't have your phone or ipads or distractions so you actually get to know i think i got to know everything about own in about the first two days because we just chatted we were talking about football and i always joked with him when we had to stay in the caravan um i said to him i said the amount of girls that would love to be in here with you and we're sat here discussing our best 11 premier league players but like you just get to know each other so well and um i think once you get in there and you're all putting your jungle stuff it's like I felt like I was just joining a new team and the stars are like the games that you have to win each weekend and that was my mindset so I almost felt bad winning it because I was like it's like when an individual award gets given out in football I'm like yeah okay Mo Salah might have scored all the goals but who was assisting them who was stopping them at the other end so I did feel like it was a real team effort just to get through it really and I know that people can think this is a ridiculous question in some ways because you're basically living in a jungle not eating much food doing your own washing up right yeah but it's a totally alien world to you and so you do have to learn a lot about yourself yeah what did you understand better about yourself i think what i learned was that i've totally been obsessed by football like that's what i learned because i'd be sat down they'd be talking about music films like and these people would have so much knowledge of different things food how to like cook properly like I thought I could make a meal and survive but some of the things I like when people talked about the meals that they made at home and I'm like god there's this whole other world out there so that was one thing that I realized that my life has just been totally like kind of I did that that meeting I had when I was 18 for my first game for England become obsessed without knowing it I just lived this obsessive life you are a testament to the power of obsession you're sitting here as a multi-trophy winning lioness who's won the hearts of the nation in the jungle right and this has all happened because of obsession and i think sometimes we're too precious about looking after other people telling them not to be obsessed about things but you can be single-minded totally obsessed fully determined all in and look what you can achieve yeah and I think with that you can still look after others as well do you know what I mean like you can I think as athletes I'd like to think I'm not a selfish person at all in life in general but you have to have an element of selfishness if you want to go on to achieve the highest level because you have to say look I'm missing that wedding I can't do that I can't do that so I'd like to think yeah but you can also take people with you as well it's not just about it's all about me have you had the conversation with your partner about the selfishness that maybe she would have accepted at a certain stage because that was the nature of the job yeah to now having to have a bit of a better balance yeah definitely I think yeah we've definitely spoke about that I think you always have to admit that you have to be a bit selfish you have to kind of put a lot of your needs first I suppose in a lot of instances but I'm at the point where I'm like I feel like I'm coping with retirement quite well alongside my career I never got in from training at two o 'clock and just went and chilled watch Netflix and whatever I was like right what can I be doing I go and do some coaching or obviously the coffee shop when that got started and I think that was what then helped us with the transition because it's like okay football's over but you've made these great friends you've still got your coaching I still had other stuff so So yeah, it's kind of, that's one thing that has surprised us.

1:01:09But I am going to actually keep talking to someone about that transition because I think sometimes there might be a point in time where I am struggling and you'll go, I need to speak to someone. But before getting to that point, I think sometimes prevention is better than cure, right? And I think it's kind of nice to be like, maybe that will come a little bit further down the line. And you're also like, you're in the middle of a lovely halo period now. You've won the Euros, you've won I'm a Celebrity, like this is great. are you taking steps at the moment to realise that actually things might be different in 12 months time you won't have football to rely on you won't have you know the consistency and the regular sort of moments in your day yeah you look after yourself from that perspective yeah I think one thing again that I learned through football and I was quite good at this was always keeping that middle line so when good things happened and never really got really high like oh we'll be top of the league today like we're going to go on and win the league because I always thought if I felt that high, it was a long way to drop if I felt a low.

1:02:08So by trying to stay in on that middle line, I'd feel the lows and I'd feel the highs, but they were never extreme. So even now I'm like, yeah, everything's going great, which it's been a great year, 2022. I know nothing's going to beat that, but it's like, I'm just trying to still stay kind of on this middle line. And yeah, I'm enjoying things. And I think sometimes it's nice to stop and reflect and be like, look, it has been a good year, but I'm just so motivated to keep trying to help people. And my little saying is always inspire before you expire. So I know in a few years, there'll be somebody else sat here.

1:02:42So I want to try and make the most of my time. That's the title of this podcast episode. Quick fire questions. What are the three non-negotiables that you and the people around you ideally would buy into? I think when you speak about like honest environments, just someone being honest, hardworking, everybody's got to be hardworking regardless of ability. and I think maybe that goes with the honesty but being able to trust each other as well especially in a team environment yeah what is your greatest strength and your biggest weakness my greatest strength oh great strength I think putting people first probably the same answer to both I think putting people first is my greatest strength but that can also be my biggest weakness because sometimes I probably neglect myself I would say what is the thing that people misunderstand about you?

1:03:29Probably some people probably think I'm joking and if they don't know us properly, they'd probably think in a football sense, like joking, always having a laugh, always fun. But I'm so serious and determined once it comes to training and everything else. And probably that obsession piece, I think people listening to this who think that they know us, they probably would have thought I was a little bit more relaxed outside of the environment, like what I'm like when I'm at home and stuff like that. So yeah, I think people probably misunderstand that a little bit. If you could go back to one moment of your life, what would it be and why?

1:04:03I think everybody will know the answer to this. I think just that you will win 100%. Are you much of a reader? A little bit. Okay, we have like a high performance book club. We've got thousands of members. They love a book recommendation. I don't know whether there's something you'd offer. Let's say a book in Sunderland. A book. I would have to go for Purpose by Ben Renshaw, which I read in COVID times. And basically, I always thought my purpose was football. I was like, as soon as you take football away from us. And obviously, in COVID times, football was taken away from us. But I realised that my actual purpose, once I'd read this book, was helping people.

1:04:45So as long as each day I feel like I can help someone, I feel like I've kind of achieved my purpose. So I think that's really important because I think in life in general, if you go to work, like at football, if you're not playing, it's like, oh, you've taken away my purpose today. I'm a footballer and I can't do it. But realising kind of what your underlying purpose is. If you could give one piece of advice to a teenage, Jill, what would it be? I think in this day and age just believe in yourself I think the teenagers are under so many kind of pressures with social media and everything else and I would really say to them just try and listen to the people that matter don't look for validation from all these random people on social media Instagram Twitter like just really kind of try and figure out who you are but with the support of the right people around you.

1:05:35And the last question, your one golden rule for living a high-performance life, all the experiences you've had, the many highs, the thankfully not too many lows, what you've gone on to do since, what would you say? I think just be yourself, know your strengths, don't try and be someone else in no matter when the circumstances or the environment's changing and everything else around you seems so like you can't control it, just control what you're good at and believe in what you can bring can i ask you a question that i wasn't sure where to fit it in and in the nature of it but a lot of the nature of the work i that i'll sometimes do with coaches is around dynamics in dressing rooms and the wider culture and i've never worked in a dressing room environment where you might have like players that are in a relationship with each other and i'm just interested in how how it helps but how it potentially hinders in your experiences when you've been in those kind of environments.

1:06:34I think, you know what, I think the women's game, and not even just in football, I've worked at like colleges and places like that where things like that obviously do happen. You spend a lot of time with people, don't you? So relationships, you're going to get strong relationships. But I think one thing with women's football, I must say is I feel like everybody's just always been able to be themselves. And I know it's a subject that was something I'm speaking about with the men's football and women's football, but I feel like it really is an environment where people can just be themselves. And yeah, I've been in, say, colleges, teams, where there is relationships going on, but I think people are professional enough, in my opinion, and in my experiences where when they come to work, they come to work, and that's completely it.

1:07:20It's work. And I've never really seen a crossover, to be honest, and I'm sure then it probably wouldn't be a great thing working. I know when me and Shelley are in the coffee shop working together, we could absolutely kill each other so we've started to do split shifts recently because good idea it can get a little bit but then that's like my interest in terms of i can see how you dig deeper for somebody that you care about that you have that strength of relationship but almost if like when it blows up yeah whether it blows up in a way that can be damaging have you ever seen think so because on the flip side of that i've had only a couple of players but like we didn't have great relationships and that's going to happen isn't it there's teams and we just didn't get on for one reason or another and do you know what it was almost like I would fight harder for them players when I was on the pitch I was like when we were on the pitch we had such a good relationship I knew their game inside out they knew mine I would have literally gone through a brick wall for them on the pitch but when we got off we'd shake hands and when we got off the pitch we didn't really talk so I think it's kind of like that's why sport is so crazy when you step over that white line and when I speak about the jungle as well you've got these people from all these different walks of life but once you enter a team it's a team and as soon as you know your standards what you believe in how much you want to win I think it's just it doesn't matter what else is going on all them uncontrollable situations it's just you're a team and you'll win at all costs and for me I think that's a beauty of sport I see it at young kids all the time I know parents want the kids to go on and play for England play at the highest level but sport can bring so much If I'm lucky enough to go on to have children, I want them to be involved in sport because I want them to make friends.

1:09:04I want them to be fit and healthy. I want them to learn that life isn't easy. You have to win. You have to lose. And sometimes we'll protect kids from a lot of things, but they're going to experience things later on in life. And I think sport can just, I think when I go into the, I went into the jungle, which is such an unknown kind of place, but sport equipped me for that. and I think sport can equip all these young girls, young boys who are going to go on and have all these different journeys and I think that's the beauty of sport. I love that. It reminds us when we interviewed Hector Beyerin and he was saying that when he was a kid, he said I had to educate my parents because the first question that I always ask is, did you win?

1:09:44And he'd be like, why does that matter? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because if you ask me, what did I learn? Did I enjoy it? Yeah. How did I help my friends? They're all valuable and are you saying that if we didn't win the game all those things are suddenly irrelevant is that ask me better questions and one of my best friends karen carney who i know jake will know um she actually did some work and she actually did a presentation called the car journey home and it was so interesting like what questions you should ask your kids and what were they yeah just like things like that did you enjoy did you have a good time how are your friends today and yeah and I think it's so important you don't want I've seen parents like going and you should have played with a false nine today and why didn't your winger come inside and this six year old Billy's like what the hell's he going on about but it's so important and I do think that my mum always says to me she's like I feel like I should have like taken you out more as a kid and we could have gone to fairgrounds and all this and she was like but you were just so happy playing football and I'm like mum you know what you helped me so much because I went to football and then when I went home she didn't ask us like one question nothing and she is the reason that I think I can switch on and switch off because home was just a safe environment where she'll probably just tell us off for not tidying my room stuff like that but there was no pressure did you play well today Jill well why didn't you work harder there was none of that and I say to her all the time she played such a big part by not trying to do too much and so I think that's interesting but again it's what works and I think it goes back to find in your routine, isn't it?

1:11:20Love that. Thank you so much, Jill. Thank you.

1:11:26Damien. Jake. She is an energy source, man. I think the greatest tribute I can pay to her is that what I expected was what I got. Yeah. So that, honestly. In the best possible way. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like, the authenticity, the transparency, just the integrity. I thought she was brilliant. I love the line, inspire before you expire. Yeah. And she is, and she has, and she will continue to. Yeah, I think we didn't touch on her origin story, you know, growing up in Sunderland and like almost having to fight to be recognised, to be able to play football. Most of us can appreciate the struggle that this generation of women footballers have had to get there.

1:12:07I think what was really interesting though was how she sustained her career at the top. You know, the constant creativity, the consistency the clarity of what makes her so special I think is really valuable for all of us to be able to take away I also loved the insight into not what the Lionesses did last summer but how they did it and Serena Vigman telling them to enjoy going out and waving at the crowd before a game the fact they were happy to dance around the pitch at the at the end of their first win even like if that was the men celebrating in that way the amount of anger and aggression and opinion that will be thrown their way.

1:12:47What are you celebrating for? What have you won? This is what's wrong with England. This is why we don't have a winner's mentality. The fact that they did it and won the tournament shows that all of that is an absolute load of nonsense. What we need to look for in our sports stars and our teams and our businesses and our parenting and our teaching is freedom. And Serena gave them freedom. And what they then achieved, despite the glare of the public on home soil, was because of their freedom. Yeah, well, that example she told about when she would get everyone together and when they'd be saying, oh, why isn't such and such body training?

1:13:22Here's the answer. That's why they're not training today. So it removes ambiguity, uncertainty, the need to gossip, because you know that what you're hearing is the unvarnished truth, which allows you then to get out of your own way and just go and enjoy what you're doing. I think there were so many rich lessons there from Jill's experience, both on the field but also off it as well. and isn't it interesting that you can achieve all those things you can have that amazing life lift all those trophies the opinion of others still matters winning i'm a celebrity effectively a popularity contest right and being liked more than anyone else and she's humble she's like it was a team effort like i felt bad winning it because we'd all been in the jungle together but even after all that stuff people saying i like you is such a positive vote for someone like there's no way that the human brain, I think, can get away from that.

1:14:15Do you know what I mean? Because if anyone should be immune to that, Jill Scott should be immune to that, yet still it matters. Yeah, and I think it's understandable, you know, it's a survival tool that the idea of being rejected from a pack or a tribe is like a death threat to our brains. So I get why we have this innate desire to want to be liked and to be embraced. But I think the big message that Jill was saying there is, make sure it's the right people that like and embrace you. Don't get caught up in chasing popularity because, especially where you have to trade your integrity for it. Thanks a lot, mate.

1:14:49Thanks, mate. I loved it. As always, huge thanks goes to you for growing and sharing this podcast. If you want to watch what Jill had to say, then you can find us on YouTube as well. Just type in High Performance Podcast. Remember, there is no secret. It is all there for you. So chase world-class basics. Don't get high on your own supply. remain humble, curious and empathetic and I'll see you soon