E190 - Lord Bilimoria: Adversity into opportunity - Building a global beer empire with Cobra

0:01Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey and you're listening to High Performance. Before we go any further, if you're in the UK listening to this podcast. please check out thehighperformancepodcast.com because we're currently on a UK tour. Thank you to the thousands of people that have already been to watch us and cheer us on. It's been amazing sharing the lessons and learnings from this podcast with you. We've still got a bunch of dates coming up over the next few months. If you want to join us, head to our website, thehighperformancepodcast.com. But let's get on with it then. This is the award-winning podcast that reminds you that it's within.

0:33As always, hello to all of our listeners around the world who tune in to us every week knowing that we are your armour, we're your partner, we're your guide in a world that often feels so negative, so divisive and so confused. We really hope these conversations remind you of your power, of your potential, of what all of us are capable of. So right now, allow myself and Professor Damien Hughes to unlock the mind of one of the most fascinating business people to ever appear on the podcast. Here's what's in store. Luck is when determination meets opportunity If you're not determined, you won't even see the opportunity It's like waves that are going past you in life It's how I visualize it If you're determined, you might just catch one of those waves Otherwise the waves will just keep going past you all your life When I recruit people, I'm looking for will rather than skill I mean, ideally both, but the will is more important Does the person have that right attitude?

1:31And attitude is everything It's always a question of turning that no into a yes, an obstacle into an opportunity. In India, people don't order one bottle for you, one bottle for me. They order a big bottle, two glasses, and they share the beer. People share Indian food. So put it on the tables and people will share the big bottles in the way they share the food. You'll find out they'll actually consume more of the beer and you will sell more beer. Your waiters can leave the bottles so that frees them up to do other work. People at other tables will say, what are they drinking? It looks like a bottle of wine.

2:01no, no, it's not a bottle of wine, it's a bottle of beer, let me try it, and it spreads like wildfire. And now, if you look at the supermarket shelves, every major beer brand does big bottles, and we were the first ones. So today we welcome to high performance Lord Billamoria, and this is a fascinating conversation. Lord Billamoria has a motto that I think we should start this podcast with. His motto is Aspira Econfis, which stands for Aspire and Accomplish. and aspiring is exactly what this person did. He founded Cobra Beer and the story of how he did it and what he went through and why it happened and everything around it is so interesting.

2:41You're going to hear it over the next little while. He's also accomplished. He's done incredible things in his life. Not only did he grow Cobra to be this huge business, he's done so many fascinating things. And you're going to hear in his words, what he's done over his more than 60 years on the earth. And I think the fact that Lord Billimoria is in his 60s brings a real value to this podcast. You know, he's someone who has seen it, experienced it, dealt with it, whether it's risk, whether it's failure, whether it's opportunity, whether it's doubt, he's been there. He's drunk the drink, so to speak, certainly when it comes to Cobra.

3:16And I think that there is real value in that for you. He's a parent of four children. That also brings a real value. and I really hope that you enjoyed this conversation with someone who absolutely was a trailblazer. So here we go then, time for the latest episode, time to get you closer to your own version of High Performance as we welcome Karan Faradun Bilimoria, Baron Bilimoria, to the High Performance Podcast.

3:49Karen, thank you very much for joining us, first of all. Please share with us, what is your definition of high performance? It's performing at a level that is exceptional, that exceeds the norm, that exceeds expectations, that raises the bar and that should be inspirational as well. And it is inspirational. You know, lots of people listen to this podcast because all the things you just mentioned is what they want to be and how they want to operate. A lot of them also struggle to get there. So what would you share with us that you've learned over your life that allows you to get to that place of high performance?

4:32From a very early age, I always wanted to do well at academics, at school. I was brought up in India, and my father was an army officer and was posted to different places every two or three years. So I moved around a lot, and that had a big effect, I think, looking back on it, where you'd go as a complete stranger to a strange place, and you'd have to make friends, get to know the place. And I learned from my parents very early on. They said, you know, people say, oh, you're being posted to this godforsaken place. It'll be boring. It'll be dreadful. And my parents said, wherever you go, you'll always find interesting people, and you'll always find something of interest in that place that'll be special.

5:19And looking back on it, every single place my father was supposed to do was really special. And all over India, and India is the most diverse country in the world in every way, whether it's in terrain, in religion, in races, in religions, in languages, and everywhere India is the most diverse country. And I've been lucky from my childhood onwards to have experienced the diversity of India and to have appreciated it. You learn to be very adaptable and flexible. I went to seven different schools and ended up at boarding school in a school in South India, a British boarding school, an international boarding school, which is over 100 years old.

5:56And to this day, there's a British headmaster there. Many of the teachers are expats, a lot from the UK and other countries, the Commonwealth. My classmates were from all over the world. And it was great. So I went to university in India, and then I came here to the UK to study. And again, that expectation that I would come to the UK to study, and therefore I had to do well. Because from my earliest memories, both your grandfather studied in the UK, my mother studied in the UK, one day you will study in the UK as well. But to do that, you've got to do well at your studies. And it was just ingrained in me to just do well.

6:31But the one thing that later on I learned, I tried art, and I was hopeless at it. And I was told, therefore, you're not creative. And I learned the piano, I was forced to learn the piano. I'm glad I did. And I passed grade one. And then I was told, please, you know, give up, spare us, you're tone deaf. So I was written off as being not creative, told I was not creative. And it's all the way through my youth and my studies, that's what I believed. I believed I was academically good, but creatively useless. And it's only when I started my business and became an entrepreneur, I realized that I'm very, very creative and had been suppressed throughout my youth.

7:07And I think that is one of the most important skills in life as an entrepreneur, whatever you do in life is the ability to be creative and innovative. And that sets you apart and enables you to excel and perform in a high level if you have that creative, innovative mindset, which was in me, but had been suppressed and unleashed when I started Cobra Beer. See, I'm surprised that you say that you weren't recognized as being creative, because I've read a little bit of your story where you tell that great anecdote at eight years of age where you came up with a really creative way of learning Hindi.

7:45Yeah, I mean, that is also, there's got to be a rebellious streak in you where you don't accept the norm, where you don't accept a no, and you are always trying to find a way. And I think what you're talking about is when my father was posted to Trivandrum in Kerala, right at the tip of India, he's commanding his battalion of Gurkhas. And I went to the best school. To this day, it is the best school in the state called Loyola School, a Jesuit school. and the headmaster, the Jesuit priests would be in their robes and very strict. I was caned at the age of eight for taking comic books to school.

8:25And then they suddenly had a diktat that everyone in the school, it was an English medium school, everyone in the school would have to learn Malayalam, the local language of the state of Kerala, as a second language. And when I was told this, I said, I don't want to learn Malayalam. My father's going to be posted out of here in two years. This is going to be of no use to me for the rest of my life. Why should I waste my time learning Malayalam? And this is an eight-year-old. So I told my teacher this. She said, you do what you're told, you'll get caned again. I went and told my parents. They said, you do what you're told, you'll get caned again.

8:55I went back into the class, and I went to this Malayalam class. I said, this is ridiculous. I mean, it's a different script. It's a different language. It's only unique to the state. It's of no use anywhere else in India, let alone in the world. I don't disrespect it as a language, but it's no use to me. And then I thought, I could keep on complaining like this. It's not going to get me anywhere. What about a solution? And I said, what about Hindi? Now, I know I'm going to have to learn Hindi. Hindi is the national language of India, and I will have to, in senior school, learn Hindi as a second language.

9:23Why can't I start learning Hindi now? So I asked my parents. I said, why can't I start learning Hindi? Well, they don't have a Hindi teacher, so go to your Malayali classes. But I planted a seed, and my father went and spoke to the headmaster. And I said, I also said to my parents, there'll be other children who are expats from outside this state, business people, army, who are here temporarily, who might want to learn Hindi as well. So not just me, it could be of use to other people. Within a month, a Hindi teacher was hired. I can still picture her in that classroom as an eight-year-old boy.

9:54And there were 26 of us in that class learning Hindi. The lesson there was that you can spot a problem and you can complain as much as you want. but you've got to come up with a solution and then you've got to act on the solution and that sequence of problem solution action has followed me through my life including creating Cobra Beer including being president of the confederation british industry the biggest business organization in the country and the worst crisis in the second world war when I was a crisis president as presidents with the pandemic and then the ukraine war this whole attitude of problem solution action is what made me i think do really well and perform highly as president of the cbi so let's zero in on that middle part of the equation then the solution bit because we like you defined it as creativity earlier but would you tell us a little bit around some of the tips the techniques the ideas that you use to problem solve that our listeners could maybe adopt in that world?

10:56The best example would be Cobra Beer itself. So the problem as a student when I came here, the first place I stayed as a 19-year-old, I came on scholarships. I'm a Tata, you know, Tata's who own Jaguar Land Rover and Tata Steel, one of the biggest conglomerates in the world. There's one of the most prestigious scholarships. And I had to get scholarships to come. My father was an army officer. He couldn't afford to pay for me to study in the UK. I came as a scholar at the age of 19. I already had completed one degree. I skipped a couple of years. I was lucky and graduated in 19. I went to university at 16 and then came here for my further education.

11:33And I came to qualify as a chartered accountant. Then I did my law degree at Cambridge University. And the first year I stayed at the Indian YMCA in London in Fitzroy Square. And I remember still, I took my bags. I was given my room. I put my bags in the room and across the road was the Whitehorse Pub. And I went straight to the pub. And I wanted to try all the famous beers. And I was really disappointed with the lagers. I mean, we're used to drinking lager beer in India. The lagers in the UK, I found, were very fizzy and gassy and harsh and bland and bloating and difficult to drink in the pub.

12:05And then I missed my Indian food a lot. So I couldn't cook when I came. I would go to Indian restaurants. And Indian food was starting to become very popular. And of course, now we have 12 ,000 Indian restaurants, curry restaurants in the UK. and I would go to Indian restaurants regularly. I'd want to eat spicy food, of course, but I'd want to drink something to accompany that. And of course, the most popular drink with Indian food to this day is lager beer. But the lager beer I was presented with was too fizzy and gassy and harsh and bland and bloating, and I found that it didn't work. Because of bloating, I couldn't eat as much as I wanted to.

12:36I couldn't drink as much as I wanted to. So an English friend of mine introduced me to Real Ale, which I love to this day. I've enjoyed ale in a pub, smooth and delicious, but I couldn't drink it with food because it was too heavy and too bitter. And I said, well, ale drinkers hate lagers. Ale drinkers love curry. They can't drink their ale with curry. They hate the lagers they're drinking with curry. There's got to be a solution to this. And that's when I would experiment. I'd go to a pub and I'd say, give me a bottle of this and a bottle of that. And I'd mix the two and I'd try to find something that would work, that would give me the refreshment of a lager and the smoothness of an ale combined.

13:13And that was my idea. My idea was to come up with a beer that would be balanced and rounded and easy to drink, but would go very well with food. And it didn't exist. And that was the genesis of Cobra Beer. And so there, your problem, solution, then of course, is the action. But I love that because it fits with some research that was done by a guy called Mihaly, six and mihali so his name's a mouthful but he did a study in the 1960s around creativity where he did it with artists and what he found is the artists that saw a problem didn't tend to last as long in the world of art whereas the artists that came at something and looked for solutions came up with a far broader spectrum they were more creative but more significantly they were more resilient for longer careers in the world of arts and what you've just described there is you weren't looking at just a problem you were looking at a variety of solutions yes and the solution doesn't necessarily come to you straight away it is that you really apply yourself and try and come up with the solution and then you step away and that's why some of the best ideas i get when i'm shaving or i'm in the shower because you've been trying thinking and thinking and thinking and sometimes you slept over it and suddenly it falls into place and you need that ability to intensely look at a problem to try and find a solution but also step back from it and there were lots of studies on all this and show how that process also leads to that eureka moment and i did not jump out of a bath naked and run down the streets of cambridge when you know i finally said this is the idea i'm going to go for my big idea cobra beer i find this fascinating because i know that people listen to this podcast and then they say to us well i'm not sort of a solutions mindset kind of person is i can't i don't i don't really do solutions it sounds to me like you're saying really there's uh there's an algorithm to this there's a process to this that anybody can learn a do you believe that anyone can have a mindset of being solution focused but also how do you decide the moment to step away when you feel you've got enough of an idea to then leave it and let it go because that's quite a brave thing to do in some respects yeah The reality is when you are so intensely trying to find a solution, you are thinking about it all the time.

15:29And then there are times when you are forced to step away by doing routine things or whatever. And that's when it tends to fall into place. That's when you get that eureka moment. So the trick is to keep persisting and not to give up by trying to find the solution. But realize it might just fall into place when you're not at your desk trying to find the solution. And another way of expressing this is luck and serendipity. So I've attended three business schools, and I've probably done the equivalent of two MBAs and hundreds of case studies. I've never done a case study on luck. And luck comes into play all the time.

16:04And I think the best way to define luck is if you define serendipity. And I chaired the Cambridge Archer Business School for five years, and one of our professors there, Mark Derrond, defines serendipity as seeing what everyone else sees but thinking what no one else has thought. And then if you link that to the best definition of luck that I've ever heard, which was in the Harvard Business School classroom, luck is when determination meets opportunity. If you're not determined, you won't even see the opportunity. It's like waves that are going past you in life, is how I visualize it. If you're determined, you might just catch one of those waves.

16:39Otherwise, the waves will just keep going past you all your life. And I can give you example after example of when that determination meets opportunity works. And with Cobra Beer, when the first year when we started in business with my business partner we didn't have the money we didn't have the experience we thought it was too big a big idea let's get our experience doing some smaller things importing products from india selling them marketing then we'll get work on on the beer idea but the beer idea was there and it was just a chance meeting with our mentor a routine meeting with our mentor when we're thinking of importing seafood that we stumbled across the biggest independent brewer in india who owned a seafood exporting company and you see there.

17:16It's that seeing what everyone was thinking, what no one else thinks, determination, opportunity, forget the seafood. This is my beer idea. And we were ready for the idea. And we said, would they be interested in exporting beer? And the rest is history. So timing is everything as well. And by that stage, we were ready for the beer idea because we built up experience with all sorts of other products, polo sticks and high fashion items and leather and silk goods that were sold to Harrods and Selfridges. And we built up that experience. it was a year down the road we're ready for the beer luck will have it we stumble upon it and then there's lots more luck they didn't have a brand that was appropriate to us their two biggest brands one was called pals which is the name of a dog food in britain another one was called knockout which is an eight percent beer with a boxer having knocked out another boxer on the label sounds like a knockout doesn't it yeah a very successful brewery and we said sorry these are not appropriate brands for us now look at the luck they said well you are going to fail because all our competitors, except for Kingfisher, have failed.

18:12And when it fails, it'll be your brand. So you choose your own brand. We'll have the prestige of exporting beer to the UK. Look at the luck. I wouldn't be here talking to you. Cobra is my most valuable asset. My brand is my most valuable asset. So the luck comes into it, but you've got to have that determination meets opportunity. And I'm working on a huge new project that is about to start. And I was walking out of the Commonwealth Games. I'm chancellor of the University of Birmingham. I was walking out of the opening ceremony of the Commonwealth Games in the summer of 2022. And it was a most amazing ceremony, as good as any Olympic Games opening ceremony.

18:51And Birmingham University played a bigger part in these games than any university's played in any games at any time in history. And as I was walking out, there was a sort of funnel of crowd walking through. And this couple were next to me and they said, are you Lord Billimoria? I said, yes. Started talking to them. Happens that the lady is an expert in food and had all the experience of the person of the project that I'm working on now. And if there's just pure serendipity, pure luck. And I said, hang on, I think you can help me with my new idea. Would you be interested? And the rest is history.

19:29We've been working closely together and we're gonna come up with this new food brand that is going to be transformational and change the marketplace forever. There's something else that I really want to pick at here, which is optimism. I think that the kind of people that you're describing, and I look at lots of entrepreneurs and I see them as gamblers. Every time they walk in the room, they take a gamble that there's going to be someone interesting. They take a gamble by starting a conversation as you did, as you walked out of the opening ceremony of the Commonwealth Games. They take a gamble when they say, well, let's have a coffee and see whether there's some legs in this.

20:02I mean, you know, they take the ultimate gamble as you did when you actually, you know, take on a big loan when you have no money to set up Cobra Beer. So this mindset of optimism, this belief that great things are going to come, that people are going to be interesting, that a conversation is going to lead to an opportunity, an opportunity is going to lead to a business and a business is going to lead to success. What is your opinion? And where do you stand when we talk about the importance of optimism in living a successful life? There's no running away from entrepreneurs tend to be more optimistic.

20:32However, I found the really successful entrepreneurs will always look at the downside as well. And not everything works out. In fact, there are a lot of contradictions. One of my favorite sayings is Churchill saying, never give up, never, ever give up. And entrepreneurs do tend to persevere and never give up. On the other hand, entrepreneurs know when to give up. Now, that's completely contradictory. And I've shared the platform with Jimmy Wales, the founder of Wikipedia. year. And both of us on this particular occasion said exactly the same thing uncorroborated, that entrepreneurs never give up, but they also know when to give up.

21:05And in the early days, I could give you example after example of different projects we tried. Oh, we found we got the license to import bath towels from Bombay dying in India. This is a license to print money. We couldn't sell a single bath towel because the quality wasn't good enough. The price wasn't good enough. The Portuguese bath towels literally across the sea were closer, better quality, cheaper, less freight. We couldn't compete. We couldn't sell a single bath towel. Now, Do you continue going trying to sell Bombay Dime bath towels? Of course not. You give up. So you've got to know when to give up as well.

21:33On the other hand, when you know you've got an idea that you really believe in, and of course, once you start it and you get the repeat orders with Cobra, 99 % repeat orders from day one, you know you're onto something. And you know then you've got to extrapolate that into a global beer brand. So it's getting to that stage where you believe in, I call it also crossing the credibility gap. So when you come up with an idea, you start in business, you're unknown. Your product is unknown. Your brand is unknown. Why should anyone supply you, finance you, buy from you when you've got zero credibility?

22:04And they do that if you have passion, faith, confidence, and belief in yourself and in your idea and in your brand. Because that gives people the faith and the confidence to trust you, to give you a chance. That passion and faith comes through. And that's why people will work for an unknown company, work for an unknown brand. If they really believe in that leader who's got that vision, who's got that passion, and people will follow you. Well, let's go to the topic that you mentioned there about knowing when to give up. Because one of my pet hates is, you know, like these motivational quotes and it's like, you know, winners never quit and quitters never win.

22:39Because I always think exactly like you and Jimmy Wales have said, well, I know plenty of people that have been successful that have known when to quit. And I think it's easy to talk about having passion and belief in a project. And I get the importance of that. But what are the red flags for anybody listening to this to know, maybe I need to give up, maybe I'm being delusional here? Can you advise us on that? Yes, it does become very apparent, usually pretty quickly, that it's not a runner. And I can give you many examples of the failures that I've had, and quite often not for want of trying.

23:15I came up with this great idea, which I worked on, of a photo sharing app. I mean, it's a great idea. It works really well, but it never took off. It just didn't work. Now, should I have continued persevering? I gave it my best. I tried everything and it didn't work. See, you've got to know. On the other hand, you'll come across obstacles in any business. Even with a brilliant idea, you'll come up with obstacles. How do you then turn those obstacles into opportunities? There's a big difference between giving up on an idea that's not going to work and an idea that is going to work but has obstacles in the way.

23:50How do you know it's an obstacle, though, and not a terminal diagnosis? Again, with your fundamental belief that you are delivering something that is different and better, and that it's going to change the marketplace forever and is going to benefit everyone down the line. So in my case with Cobra Beer, when I invented this beer that was brewed smooth for all food, I knew that the restaurant owner would benefit because he would sell more beer. Because it's smoother, people will drink more of it, responsibly, of course. Yes. And they'll eat more food, so he'll sell more food. So the restaurant owner is going to do better out of it.

24:22And I have charged a premium price saying, I'm going to charge you a pound a case more from day one. But you will more than make that up on the first bottle that you sell because the profits that the restaurant makes selling each bottle. Next is the consumer will benefit because they'll have a product they genuinely prefer the taste of, that's smoother, that's easier to drink, that's more comfortable. And then if they responsibly want to drink more, they can and they can eat more. So everyone benefits down the line. the distributor benefits. So if you can do that, then you come up with an obstacle.

24:52In the early days, the brewery said you can only do a double-sized bottle. In India, if you go to India, to this day, 80 % of beer sold is in the double-sized 660ml bottles. In India, 650ml here at 660ml. And the brewery said, you want small bottles? Forget it. You're not even going to be here in a year. And change parts in the brewery, new molds for small bottles? We don't sell small bottles. If you're here in a year's time, we'll give you small bottles. True to their word, they did, by the way. Draft beer, that's out of the question. Sending kegs all the way to the UK and empty kegs all the way back to India, forget it.

25:23So you take these big bottles or nothing. So we'd go to the restaurants and they'd say, give us small bottles of draft. We said, but this is all we've got. And you turn that obstacle into an advantage. And we said, well, this is the way beer is consumed in India. It's the authentic way that people drink beer in India. In India, people don't order one bottle for you, one bottle for me. They order a big bottle, two glasses, and they share the beer. People share Indian food. So put it on the tables and people will share the big bottles in the way they share the food. You'll find out they'll actually consume more of the beer and you will sell more beer.

25:53Your waiters can leave the bottles so that frees them up to do other work. People at other tables will say, what are they drinking? It looks like a bottle of wine. No, no, it's not a bottle of wine. It's a bottle of beer. Let me try it and it spreads like wildfire. And that obstacle became an option. We're the first movers. And now if you look at the supermarket shelves, every major beer brand does big bottles. And we were the first ones. and it was a big obstacle.

26:19So how much time would you and your business partner, Arjun, spend almost pre-empting or guessing some of these obstacles and then being able to equip yourself to handle them with elegance in the moment? You have to deal with it as they come up. So you don't pre-plan for them to come up? No, because we thought they'd want this authentic Indian beer in the double-sided bottle. It's only when you go. And then, I mean, by the way, people can create obstacles. Oh, it doesn't fit in our fridges. We'll put them sideways. Because people don't like change. And it's a natural human tendency to resist change.

26:57We once were going to give our bottles the beer for the refurbishment and relaunch of a very famous Indian restaurant in Kensington. And this was a big occasion. Celebrities were going to be there. And we sent 10 cases of beer for the launch in the afternoon. Frantic phone call from the owner. What have you done selling me these big bottles? Take them back. And, you know, they were desperately getting ready for the launch. And it took a lot of persuasion to say, look, please believe us. I mean, not a problem. Serve the big bottles. People will love it. One hour into the reception, they ran out of the beer.

27:35Please, I need more. I need more. and they became one of our best customers after that. So it's always a question of turning that no into a yes, an obstacle into an opportunity. And that comes from having rock solid belief in your idea and your product and your brand. What about when actually you get genuine curveballs? I saw a quote from you saying that your dad said that true leadership is when you're tested in the tough times. And I know that you said there's three big moments in your career where you've really found business a real challenge. And Cobra went through difficult times, went into administration.

28:10How do you deal with those moments? When you come up with literally existential crises where you survive them, you survive. If you don't, you're out of business. And I've been through that three times. I suppose if you count the pandemic now is another test of the resilience of a brand. and the third time of course was the worst in the financial crisis where we literally came this close to losing i mean it was almost lost the business and when you say we went into administration we actually saved the company um it it could have i could have lost the company really um and how did that feel because this is a company you'd spent so many years not just creating but nurturing and growing like were you struggling to sleep it was awful in that i remember very clearly the day um and the date when it happened on the on the 22nd of of may um in 2009 when basically the joint venture that i was trying to create to save the company um they said well it's not going to happen anymore because one of our creditors had pulled the rug.

29:24And you are devastated. And of course, this is where resilience comes into it. This is where the guts comes into it. And I will say that the best word to describe an entrepreneur is guts. You have the guts to do it in the first place when others wouldn't. A lot of people have ideas. When I give lectures to students, school children, university students, how many of you want to start your own business one day? Many, many hands go up. How many of them will actually have the guts to do it and to give up the other opportunities. Second thing, entrepreneurs have the guts to stick with it when others would give up.

29:54And it's that resilience that comes into a situation like this when the whole deal you've been working on for months has fallen apart and your business is going to be just taken away from you and all your work of all these years is just going to disappear. And then again, you sleep on it and you find a way out and you say, I'm not going to give up. And then they said, well, there is one way out of it, but it will involve that you will have to bid for the business. You can persuade the joint venture partners to stick with you. And then you may not win the bid, but you can have a go. And it took a week.

30:29And on the 29th of May, we won the bid through a very transparent, rigorous process run by Rothschilds and PwC. And we won the bid and we saved the business. But a week before, I had technically lost it all. And so it is that ability to gather yourself and then to go for it and say, I'm going to find a way out of this. I'm going to rescue the business. And now, 13 years later, Cobra is stronger than ever. And we've had a joint venture with Molson Coors, one of the biggest beer brands, beer brewers in the world. And it's been very resilient. And the previous two experiences have also been pretty awful.

31:04I mean, the one before that, we had just agreed a strategic deal in 2008 with the biggest drinks company in the world at that time. And they were taking a 30 % stake in Cobra for 30 million pounds, valuing us at 100 million pounds with one seat on our board. And in five years' time, we would have to sell the company to them based on the performance of the business. At that time, we thought, what a great deal. And all the due diligence was done. And we're about to sign the agreements. and they pulled out. And they got cold feet. I found out later, it was a finance director that got cold feet why the business environment was uncertain.

31:41Two weeks later, the Lehman's went bust and the world collapsed. That was devastating at the time when they said no after all the work that we put in. The time before that was a completely unforeseen circumstance where we had a boycott on Cobra Bay every year. Took us a year to get out of the boycotts. Each of the three circumstances were very different when I nearly lost my business. The three things that got me through, One was having a strong brand, very resilient brand. Secondly, was having the support of my team and family. My wife stood by me throughout. I met her one year after I started Cobra.

32:13So she's seen all the ups and downs of this business journey. And she was amazing, stood by me throughout. Without her support, I wouldn't be talking to you now. And finally, was always doing it the right way, the integrity. And it's easy to say that. but if I could describe the bad behavior of the people around the table when things fall apart of some of the lawyers and bankers and hedge fund managers and I mean appalling appalling behavior and you just say always play with a straight bat and that old saying play up play up and play the game and you do that and and that's that's how I got through those three things and even through the pandemic the Cobra brand's been phenomenally resilient.

32:56I'm interested if you take us into the crucible of those moments where the deals off the table you face with that existential crisis because as you're talking i can almost imagine hearing your father that must have felt face similar existential crisis when he's commanding battalions in uh in the army yeah i'm interested in like the two or three tips or techniques you could share with our listeners about how do you process the shock of that moment to then be able to maintain your dignity, get back on your feet and come up with a plan that allows you to survive. Could you share some of them for us?

33:36Yes, it is all my father would of course express it by saying in a crisis situation, be cool, calm and collected. That's very easy to say that. It's very difficult to actually do that. Again, I can give you example after example. It's again, do you have that inherent attitude within yourself that you'll always do the right thing, that you'll always behave with integrity, that you will find a way to get through the situation. The other day, I was being driven up to give a talk in East Anglia, and my driver, I could suddenly see, was not well. I asked him to pull up on the service station, the next service station, and he nearly crashed the car.

34:15And as we He got to the service station. He fell out of the car and literally fell out and fell over. And the ambulance was going to take two hours to come. And I just took the decision then and there. Luckily, people helped out. I said, I'm going to drive him to the closest hospital. And I got him at the back of the car. Closest hospital was about 20 minutes away. And I drove him to the hospital. God knows the man who was even got him into hospital. And I said, thank God you took that action straight away. You may have saved his life. Now, it's how you react in a situation like that. Do you panic?

34:46Do you helpless? You get on with it and you find a solution and you act. And it's the same sort of thing where it's horrible. It's not nice. It's awful. And this person had been working with me for over a decade. And you want to get there and sort the situation out. And by the way, after that, I got a call from the talk which I was meant to be giving. And they said, oh, would you mind doing this virtually? And they set up a big screen. There were 100 people, the who's who of the business community from there at East Anglia, the University of East Anglia. And I sat in the car park of the hospital and did a one-hour Zoom call straight after this incident and did the talk and I didn't let them down.

35:29So, you know, there are many examples I can give you. Sure. And I love the examples, but I'm interested in the actual techniques of being able to process that. And how did you learn to do it that our listeners could maybe take away and go, I might be facing a situation with my children at school, or I might be dealing with my own business. How do I be able to process a setback and be action-orientated like yourself? It's all down to attitude. Do you have that attitude that you are going to find a way always? Where there's a will, there is a way. And if you have that within you, you will, even in the most adverse situations, be able to find a way through.

36:14Now, I can't put it more clearly than that. It's the same way when I recruit people. I'm looking for will rather than skill. I mean, ideally both, but the will is more important. Does the person have that right attitude? And attitude is everything. We've reached the point for our quickfire questions, Karan. The first one is, what are the three non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you must subscribe to? Without a doubt, integrity is the most important thing, that people must have integrity. The other is attitude. It's having the right attitude is the most important thing to me.

37:02And the other thing is that people should be willing and happy to work in a team. and I want superstars, but I want people who also are willing and happy to work in a team. What is your biggest weakness and your greatest strength? Oh, I have several weaknesses. I suppose my biggest weakness is I do a lot. Now that's a pro and a con and you learn to say no, but I try to help as much as I can and I get asked to help people every single day and I don't like saying no to that. I want to try and help as much as I can. I love all the things I do. I'm so lucky to have the opportunity to be chancellor of one of the biggest universities in the country, Russell Group University, Birmingham, to have been head of the CBI, to be in the House of Lords, a place I love and I love being and participating in parliament, to run a household name, Cobra Bear brand that I created.

37:58All these things I absolutely love. So, you know, the weakness could be that are you taking on too much? And my attitude to that is if I can do all these things that I enjoy and appreciate and privileged to do and I can do well at all of them, great. But there is a limit. And so you do have to say no. And my biggest strength is I think that I am very innovative and creative and I like leading. I like motivating and inspiring people. That is a strength that I've learned over the years. I've learned from people like my father. I've learned from all the mistakes that I made. I mean, good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment.

38:41So I've made loads of mistakes and hopefully learned something from them. So yes, I do think that that ability to lead. And the other strength that I have is I can do all these different things and have the ability to switch off from one and then switch on to another. That is also a skill that you learn. that you want to mention a business environment next to me you're an academic now next to me in a political environment can you switch on and off um in a matter of minutes to deal from one to the other what quote or motto do you remind yourself of the most or live by i got from my great-grandfather who is somebody who's inspired me a great deal was an entrepreneur did public service philanthropist great family man and was a member of the indian equivalent to the house of the upper house in India.

39:24So four generations later, I've in many ways done what he's done in India over here. And his motto was to aspire and achieve. And that's on my coat of arms when I joined the house of floors is to aspire and achieve. And I've added my motto, my business's motto, Cobra Bear's motto, is to aspire and achieve against all odds with integrity. You come up with an idea, you want to get somewhere with the idea, you've always got all the odds stacked against you. You've invariable, got little or no means, and you go out there and you make it happen. But most importantly, you make it happen the right way and you do it with integrity.

40:01What is the thing that most people get wrong or misunderstand about you? I think that sometimes people get the impression that I come from a very wealthy background, and they don't realize how hard I've actually had to work with nothing. I mean, I come from, what I always say, I come from a very privileged background. My father was command and chief of the Central Army with 350 ,000 troops on his command, but there's no money. So I literally started Cobra Beer with 20 ,000 pounds of student debt to pay off. I've had to raise every bit of money. The finance has been tough, tough, tough all the way.

40:40and I've created all this from a privileged background but not somebody who's had a silver spoon in their mouth in that sense and who had all the money. I mean, they're great entrepreneurs who created big businesses and you realize, oh, actually the father put in 10 million or 20 million or whatever. I didn't have any of that. In fact, in the early days, my father would say, what are you doing? All this education, you're becoming an import-export while I get a proper job. And it's only later on that he became my biggest supporter. So, yeah, it's that perception. People think, oh, yeah, this chap went to Cambridge and he played polo and he must come from a very wealthy background.

41:17Not at all. It's the exact opposite. I found this a really fascinating conversation, the importance of educating people into creativity, not out of creativity, taking risks, remaining optimistic, the resilience to keep going through business. I think it's been such a valuable conversation, particularly in an era where our young people are given so many negative messages all the time you know we have people that constantly say to us well it's not easy to start a new business or be entrepreneurial or find your own path and i tell them that i think there's more opportunity than ever before and i would love one final message from you to the people listening to this conversation who are maybe searching for their own version of high performance what would you like to leave them with what would you like them to think about i leave with two things.

42:03So one is, well, three things actually. Firstly is always be curious and want to learn. One of my favorite sayings of Mahatma Gandhi is, which my son actually told me about, my younger son, is live as if you're going to die tomorrow, learn as if you're going to live forever. So that non-stop learning, it never stops. The next thing is to really believe in yourselves. You've got to have that self-belief. And that's another saying of Mahatma Gandhi's, which I paraphrase, is your beliefs become your thoughts, your thoughts become your words, your words become your actions, your actions become your habits, your habits form your character, and your character determines your destiny, and it all starts with belief.

42:44And then finally, that, you know, whatever business you're in, there's some basics, there's like a checklist you can always have in the back of your mind. And in my case, it's a new business I'm starting or my existing business, I apply the 10 Ps of business. Great product at the right price, place, it's got to be available. Promotion, you've got to promote it. People, any business about people. I'm a manufacturer, but it's all about people. Finance, spelled PH, you can't do anything without the money. Passion, don't do it. Follow your passion, not your pension. Just don't do it if you don't enjoy it do what you love principles it's better to fail doing the right thing than to succeed doing the wrong thing partnership treat everyone as your partner your supplier your customer your shareholders your advertising agency your lawyers your accountants they're all your partners and finally there's no point if you don't make a profit fantastic thank you so much for that conversation and for the lessons you've shared with us.

43:46Amazing.

43:50Damien. Jake. That is the kind of conversation that I love, where someone has got decades of experience in business, but they've managed to distill it down to individual lessons or specific phrases or certain ways of thinking. And I honestly believe that if I was a young entrepreneur and I stumbled across this episode of the High Performance Podcast, I would be sharing it with everyone I meet because the guy's been there he's bought the t-shirt he's had the failures he's had the successes and he is smart enough not just to know what happened but to know why it happened yeah and that formula he shared with us about problems solutions equals success was dynamite I think I quoted to him that research that was done by Mihaly Sixcent Mihaly on this where they took the context for people that might be looking for more detail on it was that in the 1960s, you went into the Chicago School of Arts and there was all these students that were given, there was all items on the table and they had to select items that they could create a still life exhibition on.

44:52And what they found is some students look for the perfect picture, whereas some just look for, how do I create the best problem to solve? And they look for creative ways of using the items rather than just what made the best product. and then when they followed it up 10 years later the ones that came at it from looking at how do I solve problems rather than how do I create a great product were the ones that were still more successful and thriving within their community and I think what we heard in this podcast is somebody that comes at problems and looks for creative solutions is the way for it rather than looking for the perfect answer and you know we've spoken to lots of people and it's become clear I think to both of us that flexibility is absolutely vital for any form of success and i think the way that he spoke about the importance of being flexible so that you are determined and you do push forwards and you do have self-belief and optimism but at the same time you have the mental dexterity to quit if you know something isn't going to work and you're brave enough to make that decision i love the phrase hold your beliefs lightly yeah and i think there's a real value in that for people that want to go and make a real difference in the world you can't have a fixed mindset and get to the end of your days and think yep that served me well lord bilamoria is the perfect example of someone who even at the age he is now is learning every day what did he say about learning for life living living like you're going to die tomorrow learning like you're going to live forever love that there's a real value in that you know lifelong learning lifelong growth well Well, surely that's a sign of real intellect, the ability to take on board new information and use it in a way to come up with a different answer.

46:32And I think that's what, you know, he told the example of from his school, having to adapt when he's going to seven different schools in his childhood, but then selling polo sticks, selling tea towels, it described, and the ability to pivot and go, this doesn't work. This isn't where I need to get to. and that then opens him up to that opportunity like he said when he meets a brewing company that wants to start exporting he's there it's that serendipity of when opportunity meets preparedness he can take advantage of it that's something that is a mindset that's open to anyone listening to this how open how curious are you about opportunities and you saw his eyes light up when he spoke about his latest business venture i think that's the key thing is like he wasn't curious in his 20s and 30s and 40s and then chilled in his 50s and 60s like the curiosity is as strong now as it's always been up i was sitting there thinking oh what is this new business venture i can't wait to find out what it is yeah yeah i wonder if he's offering chairs in it at this stage oh man i should have asked him thanks a lot mate loved it thanks mate right it's time to meet another listener to the high performance podcast we had an incredible email from rob who told us that he's worked in live events for 20 years but had a really tough 2021.

47:52He's also developed something which I think you guys are going to find fascinating. So let's welcome him to the podcast. Hi, Rob. Hi, guys. How are you doing? Very well. I hear you've seen us a couple of times on our live shows. Have you? Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure whether I'm blacklisted. I saw you for the book launch. I saw you at the Salford gig. I even jumped on the Zoom that you did in spring, last spring. We did a little zoom Q &A session so yeah oh thank you love that let's talk about what happened then in 2021 you got in touch with us to say it was a really tough year so tell us the story mate yeah it was yeah and if I dial it back kind of the last two years I've just done a little list here it's pretty it's pretty major really so yeah that kind of 2020 2021 lockdown hit I've been working in live events everything stopped and it just it impacted everybody and it still is continuously but I just had a really bad bout of anxiety depression just pretty locked in through that time I'd completed an MBA I'd done a self-funded master's distance learning my son had had a really horrendous accident he fractured his skull like a near fatal accident and I lost three jobs in a 12 month period so quite a lot going on at that time and I think obviously looking for support networks you guys were there huge fan of stoicism as i know you both are as well and it was just kind of trying to take that principle of you can't control what happens you can only control how you respond to what happens and i know both of you are massive advocates of kind of that way of thinking the other one i love is endeavor through adversity that's through dark i don't know if you've come across them the ex-special forces guys who run kind of an outdoor equipment but i really think that getting through things and then massively obstacle is the way ryan holiday again you spoke to him recently an absolute star and that just gave me the opportunity to kind of reframe all those pretty major life-changing events and i looked at it as a midlife epiphany it wasn't a midlife crisis i took it as a midlife epiphany and really kind of pivoted how I approached things and how I looked at things.

50:09So tell us more about that then. So tell us what emerged from this epiphany. Yeah, of course. I mean, I'd worked full-time employment for 30 years, kind of your classic, nice house, nice car, lovely family, got the dog, got everything on the way. I was being a commercial director for about five years, so pretty well up in terms of how I'd moved through my career. and it was just, I think, all those things and how I reframed it really gave me the opportunity to kind of look at what I'd done, but more importantly, what I wanted to do moving forward. Going through that bout of poor mental health really drove me to try and find a way of using my experience in live events, in gigs, live music, live sport, to try and help people out, recognize that when those events were taken away from us, it was heartbreaking for me, But there's a lot of people that, for whatever reason, don't get to access those events.

51:07They haven't got the networks. They haven't got the connections. And that's really where the GigMate idea came from, which is to create real-life supportive connections for people. And what I'm doing now is taking the concept. It's just me that's working on this and drilling it right down. And I'm running a trial in Liverpool at the moment. home city obviously massive city for music and heritage and culture and just working through I sent my first match-up email today so that's gone out to anyone who likes indie music it's gone out to say these gigs are coming up if you fancy coming along I'll match you up with someone who matches your profile and that can be the age group that you want to go with the size of group you want to go to these events and the gender and then I'll match people up behind and hopefully start some really solid connections and friendships through this and what's the benefit of it from doing this because i love the concept of it but i'm interested in if you'll explain to us why this is so important passion points of mine being mental health being live events i've gone to live gigs since i was kind of 15 16 and all the way through the benefit to other people and where other people are really positively responding to this is the the loneliness endemic and the figures around it are just are astounding nine million people in the uk say they're lonely some or most of the time and they're stating that and it's 16 to 36 is the group that's hit worse that kind of young teens and upwards so to give them a platform where they can connect with like-minded people and i just think music and sport but this is music at the moment it's such a passion point for people.

52:54And it's such a, it's such a great connector because you're not going to have an awkward conversation. You're straight in, you know, you like the same thing and you're going to an event and then who knows what will come of that. Love that. Listen, mate, thank you so much for what you've done. Thank you for the support you've given the High Performance Podcast. And the biggest thing for us is when people like you pass it on, you know, gig mates is, you know, I'm sure you're getting a lot from it. So it's not completely about other people, but it really is about bringing other people together, trying to do what you can to solve the challenges that people have around mental health.

53:28It's so funny you say this because I was only speaking to someone the other day who said that when he goes, he doesn't go to gigs, doesn't go out because he goes on his own basically. And his mind plays tricks in him and says, what if you get lost on the way and you can't find your way? Or what if something happens in the gig and you're stuck on your, being on his own was the biggest barrier for him doing this. And you are making a genuine difference to people like that. So listen, Rob, on behalf of the whole community, mate, thank you so much. Oh, thanks, Jake. Thanks, Damien. Love that. Cheers, mate.

53:58Well, thanks very much for listening to today's episode. As you know, you are the people that make High Performance possible. If it wasn't for you downloading and sharing these conversations, we simply wouldn't be having them. Of course, you can also watch these on YouTube as well as listen to them wherever you get your podcasts. You know you can check out our website, the high performance podcast.com and get tickets for our live UK tour that we're currently embarking on. But thank you so much for coming for another episode. Please continue to spread the learnings you're taking from this series.

54:26Remember, there is no secret. It is all there for you. So chase world-class basics. Don't get high on your own supply. Remain humble, curious and empathetic. And we'll see you soon.

54:45Thank you.