E195 - Gary Barlow: My biggest failure, and why I needed it

0:00Hi there, I'm Jake Comfrey and you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that reminds you it's within. As always, hello to our regular listeners right across the world who tune in to us every week so that we can be your armour, your partner, your guide in a world that so often feels negative, divisive or confused. And an especially warm welcome to anyone that hasn't listened to High Performance before. That we really want these conversations to remind you of your power, your potential and what you're all capable of. So right now, allow myself and Professor Damien Hughes to unlock the mind of another fascinating guest so they can be your teacher today.

0:37This is what's coming up on today's episode. It's the perfect press story that two guys from the same band are coming out. One's making great music versus this guy who is now a watered down version of who he was before he went to America. It just played itself out as badly as it could. The worst three minutes, I think, of my whole life. There's no coming back from this. There's no second performance to launch yourself in America. This was it. And I also knew, I'm not meant to be this guy. I'm better than this. I need to sort this out. But the first run I did, I was so out of shape, but it felt brilliant to run.

1:24It felt brilliant to move, to feel air going across my face. I just remember giggling to myself, walking back, thinking I've got a lot to do here, but you know what? it's all right because I'm on the road now. Where I'm at now in my life, it's such a great place that I have to look back and go, God, I needed to fail. So today we welcome Gary Barlow to High Performance. Man, this was a cool conversation. I'm sure that, like many people, you have an opinion of Gary Barlow. Like, who doesn't? He's the guy from Take That. He's the guy who's been on our TV screens for years. He's the guy who's been in the papers for decades.

2:01But please remember, this podcast is not about opinion. Opinion is worthless. It's empathy that really matters. And we want you to understand more about Gary Barlow than you ever have before. Of course, we talk about the great times and there's been many of those, but we also talk really emotionally, really openly and really deeply about the challenges, the challenges of finding fame and maybe not feeling totally comfortable in that setting. So behaving in a way that perhaps you now wouldn't or certainly back then you shouldn't. You know, we talk about what it was like when Gary got the great moment to go to the States to launch his solo career and it didn't go as planned.

2:40What really happened when he became a recluse? He closed the doors of his mansion. He comfort ate. He didn't write songs. He looked at the piano and saw it as an enemy rather than the thing that had given him so much joy over the years. and how from the depths of despair you can bounce back. This is a conversation about the fact that we're not fixed. It's a conversation about the fact that you don't know what's around the corner, that life is a constant roller coaster, that you need to learn to deal with the ups as well as cope with the downs. And that's something that Gary has done throughout his life and through the struggles and through the hard times.

3:18He's learned such valuable lessons that I know you are going to really get a lot from. So let's do it then. as we welcome one of the most legendary British singer-songwriters to High Performance. Ladies and gentlemen, our chat with Gary Barlow.

3:42Gary, welcome to High Performance. Thank you so much. Lovely to be here. So what is your definition of High Performance? Just hearing those two words, I'd probably say touring. I think that's possibly where all the stars align. You know, music that you've been creating for maybe one or two years, you've been out, told the world about, and then you get the job of going out and performing it. And usually a tour is something I'd train towards, a night-after-night event, so you've got to keep yourself fit and healthy on the top of your game. I think that's when artists are at their absolute peak performance is when they're on tour.

4:24Nice. Well, the two of us came to see you on tour, but it wasn't one of the huge arenas with the pop songs and the tens of thousands of people. It was one of your really intimate and enjoyable theatre shows where you basically shared the stories of your life and the things you've learned along the way. The thing that got the both of us really was that emotional connection to your upbringing and your childhood, which still sort of rings true in you today. I loved the fact that you had the original bit of equipment that your dad had bought for you to learn to play piano on and I just wonder what your dad's sacrifice was it it was a keyboard or was it an organ it was an organ it was it was an organ they weren't pushy parents they're still not but they saw something and thought let's enhance this and so he took me off to this music shop and we asked the guy in there what's where where do we go from here and the guy said oh this is the thing over here and took us over to this they're called electron these organs yamaha organs sort of early 80s models so of course i went off into the bedroom for six months and just literally didn't get off the stool learned this thing back to front um and opened the door one day and i could play it i could make it work and uh and and and i think the the day that me dad sort of realized what he'd done for me was when he brought the neighbors round and they sat on my bed and I played for them and the wife was crying and the husband was on his feet clapping his hands because they enjoyed it so much and my dad turned to me and said if you can do that to people you'll have a job for the rest of your life and I was 11 at that point so it was really like okay where do we go from here so it was it was massive massive for me as a child to have my dad sell all his time off at work to buy me this it was enormous amazing and what and what was it that that organ gave you that meant that you did go and lock yourself away for six months because that level of commitment for an 11 year old child is pretty unusual but significant i think what it unlocked in me was this passion for music and i've been given this small bit of raw talent that meant i could buy learn a tune and knock it out and play it quite well and I wanted more it was like an obsession and that went on for years and years and years until I could read music I was playing in bigger clubs I was playing every night of the week and then the door opened then to starting to sing around sort of age of 15.

7:04We had a bit of a blank night in a club I was playing in. One of the singers didn't turn up. And it was one of those places where they just expect an act to be on every night. So the bingo had finished, the act hadn't turned up. And it was like, what do we do now? And I'd been singing a little bit at home. And so I thought, you know what, I'm going to give them a song here and I broke into a whiter shade of pale and like the place went crazy and so that's when the singing really started and I guess the songwriting begun began about that time of my life as well about 15. There needs to be something else there as well though because you can have all of that talent and that desire and that drive resilience is vital where did the resiliency ability to get up and perform or to have a bad day or to have bad news or to have that I mean, you're a young guy getting that kind of reaction.

7:58How do you go again at that age? Yeah, it's an interesting one, that, because definitely between 16 and 18, I knew that the clubs wasn't enough. And so I was trying to get a publishing deal or a record deal. So I was coming, I had my student rail card, and I was getting on the train at Runcorn and getting to Euston, and I was going and touring around the labels. And so what my day would often consist of is it's Monday morning, I get on the train, it's a four hour train journey at this point, you get to London, you go and sit at EMI Records in reception waiting to see somebody and some days you'd sit there for six hours and no one would come, you'd get back on the train and go back home and so that went on for like one or two years and I thought right and what I need is I need a partner, I need someone who's between me and the label, a manager to go and do that job for me while I'm writing and singing and that's when I did all the applications to the local management companies and landed at Nigel Martin Smith's office in Manchester and he decided that this band he was going to make he says right you're the middle you're the guy in the middle I want you to write the songs I want you to be part of all the production you are the music guy in this band and he said that that's what his focus was of building this band then around me so it was a big big moment for me that was and at the second meeting he then showed me pictures of these other guys and only one of them these guys didn't end up in the group can i take you back to the clubs though before we get into the story of the origins of time that would you tell us a little bit about what you learned about being able to read a room to watch an audience and be able to connect with them yeah it was it was um people talk about this 10 000 hours thing a lot and it really relates to music and it was one of the things that used to frustrate me so much when i was on x factor was that people think they can just walk on a stage and it just the magic just happens you might have a great voice but it's not enough you might have a great song but it's not enough.

10:11It's this being on a stage and slowly learning what works and what doesn't, what people relate to, how to work an audience over an hour, how to do these things. And what was fascinating for me was, is that when I was playing in these clubs, I'd often be sat behind the artist, the person I wanted to be I was sat behind them I was playing instrumentation for them I'd have the best view because I'd be watching what they were seeing so I could see them so cleverly work in the room even to the point where now and again comedians would point at something and I knew they were looking at their watch to see how long they'd done and it was it was just this this wave of bringing an audience through a performance which really fascinated me an experience of doing that it's just you can't tell somebody how to do they have to learn how to do it personally by going through the nights where you don't even get an applause or you've got to go through that to learn how to make an audience do what you want them to do so you've been given this natural ability to hear music, repeat it, write songs, create a bit of magic on the piano.

11:31Your dad's then backed you and given you that confidence because he's gone and spent a lot of harder money on the organ. And then you've gone into Nigel's office and suddenly you're in this band, right? Give us an idea at that age of your confidence levels, because it feels like you've almost already had a career and maybe some of the other guys seemed a bit fresher or a bit more inexperienced than you. Yeah, it was very much that, actually. Especially vocally, no one had really had much experience at all. And that's what Nigel wanted me to do, is get everyone up to get them in the studio, get them all singing, get them harmonising and all that stuff.

12:11And we spent probably 18 months doing that before we even started looking for labels. That was our sort of journey to getting a record deal was just trying to be out there performing. This wasn't a club audience now. This was a whole new thing this was. This was, you know, young kids. I'd never even seen them in these clubs. You know, it was a whole different crowd this was. So the set list changed completely. And also, you know, we had like a show. A couple of the lads were Madonna fans, a couple of Prince fans. These are artists who put on shows. So that's when all the dance routines start. You know, it wasn't enough to just sing in front of a mic.

12:48We wanted to put this big event on for an audience, never dreaming that we'd been able to actually do all this. But that was our first sort of two years before we even got a record deal. We went into RCA Records as this really dated looking boy band. The sort of music I was making was sort of 1988, not 1991. And the A &R departments were going, this is never going to work. However, the promotion departments were in the A &R offices saying, we've got all the magazines saying there's no one they can put on the cover. They've got all these dance acts. They don't even know what they look like. We need someone to put on there.

13:32So they were begging the A &R departments to sign us. which is how we got signed, not on the music or any of that. They just wanted a band that they could put on their magazines. But can I ask you about that two-year period sounds fascinating when you've been thrown together with four other lads. You've been put as the leader because you're the more experienced one. And that's a lot of responsibility on an 18-year-old lad's shoulders to be able to give feedback or direction or instruction in an emotionally intelligent way without causing friction or difficulties. So, I mean, what was your experience of being able to do that?

14:14You'd have four different answers to this if you asked everybody else. But it was a funny one because there was definitely times where it felt like this is going nowhere. You know, we had three misses before we had a hit. We had three big releases, didn't even go in the top 40. how did you keep faith in your ability as a songwriter because that must have been really hard especially trying to convince the others in the band as well that your talent is worth listening to it's like anything when things aren't going your way everybody's second-guessing everything and it was an interesting one because when you think of what a manager does managers are there to keep your confidence at the absolute highest there was so many times i thought I don't know if I believe this, but he was so believable the way he was saying, talking about success.

15:07He was talking about it like it had already happened, that we just went along as a team. And he was right. And I've read that you said that you kept a file of facts at this stage where you were writing down your goals of, I want to get on top of the pops, I want to have a number one record and things like that. when did you start doing that kind of goal setting to give yourself that aspiration and the ambition probably many years before right i think back a lot to um who i was back in those teenage years the confidence was through the roof and i think it's because i was good at what i did and i was confident in it in a whole week of gigs six out of ten i could have a standing ovation every night I really believed it was going to be successful.

15:57And when it was, it wasn't that much of a surprise to me. And of course, that's the time when we were starting to have this big success around 92. The world of doing what we do just took over everybody. There wasn't time to be thinking about what's your next goal. Or it was literally just flights, interviews, gigs. when you were knackered you're losing your voice because you've been talking all day it was there were a really hard few years did you realize that in this period now like it's the great stuff because it's the big hits and the big events and stuff but all the personal growth disappears all of the deep learning that you're able to do disappears you kind of you're so in it you're so obsessed with it i guess that it doesn't allow for any of that stuff yeah it takes over there's things I think back on a lot of of where um we'd be finishing a tour and we'd been out for I don't know six months or something and we get home and everyone's booking holidays and I get a call saying oh the label we need the album next week and I haven't written anything because we've been on the road so I watch everyone go off to Magaluf and all these places and I've got to write an album now in a week and i look back and i think god look at that album i wrote that week big with like three big songs on it like did you mind this were you thinking give us a break or were you no single-minded in i think i was i was so it was so automatic that it just came out even like when i think about how long we talk about our direction and where we want to go next and that was decided it in an evening you know it was it's just really amazing the massive decisions that you make in those circumstances of like mayhem and travel and gigs and I mean just yeah the things that we put so much thought into now were literally a five second decision back then and nobody's flawless right you were delivering an amazing set of songs and albums and music and doing so much for the band but there's all everything has a price right so so what were you like as a person at this point i remember watching something where you and the guys all got together in a pub and you talked about coming back and you remember i can't remember which bandmate of yours but they said i'm not sure like i remember what you were like at that time yeah i'm interested on the impact that that had on you and what you think about when when you sort of take those words on board oh i think i was unbearable.

18:33I really do. I really do. I think about it a lot, actually, because, you know, I look at my band members over the years, I think, God, they've put up with a lot. I was right all the time. And I was the leader all the time. That original role I'd been given, I didn't give any of it up as the years went on. The band needed to end because we did all end with a handshake at the end. And everyone went their separate ways. And, you know, Rob had got out a little early it was all getting too much for him it's easy looking back on this now and and having a and having because of course where i'm at now in my life it's such a great place that i have to look back and go god i needed to fail because it couldn't carry on in that way it was just too unbearable to be around so when robbie leaves your band yep you're probably thinking no problem yeah off you go yeah it's a funny one because the whole rob thing i mean it's such a such a scary thing to always talk about because i always feel like you're comfy now talking about it i'm i'm never comfy talking about anyone i always think they should have their own say but but um he's not here so i can probably talk about it semi-freely rob my friends were jason and Howard.

19:50It was the three of us. We were the older ones we got on. Mark and Rob were always a bit removed for us. They were the cool younger ones and they were the naughty ones and they were always off doing something else. So it wasn't like Jay or Howard leaving the band. It was Rob. You know, it'd be fine. It'd be fine. Let it, you know, and I think we all look back at that period and think, God, Rob was what, he wasn't even 16 when he joined the band. He was two weeks off being 16. So I'm thinking at 19 being told I'm brilliant and who I'd become, well, who'd he become being told that from 16? You know, it's just, we've all had our different journeys, but it just got, it just gone too much for him.

20:36Day in, day out, the work, the stress of it all. And, you know, me leading everybody, telling them what to do. It just got too much for him. So he was the first to go. what did you think he would go on to do at that point well there's one thing i've always remembered about rob he's talented yeah very talented you know he he when we started you know it was me and rob were the singers you know we were the two who were always in the studio and you know he's great on a stage there was never any doubt of that for me but little did i think he'd ever go on to do I don't think, if you asked Rob though, he would say, I can't believe what's happened.

21:17I mean, it's for anybody. No one can believe their success. I can't believe mine, you know, at this point. But we've all had it and taking it to pieces is an interesting thing. But if you ask Rob, you know, about his success, he'd say he couldn't believe it either. So if we'd have come along to you at this stage and taken that, I mean, the pomp at that stage of your career and asked, how much do you think the success is down to you as an individual and how much would you say is the best of the band? What would your answer have been? In the 90s? In the 90s. There's definitely, you know, we were always aware that, like, Mark was the most popular.

21:57Was he? Because he's such a brilliant manager, our manager was, because he used to set out the fan mail so you could see who was the most popular. Great. That would get you on your feet. And where were you on that list? I was about the middle. Everyone called Mark the cute one. And he was. He was a gorgeous, I mean, he still is. But, you know, he's just the perfect crush, isn't he, Mark? I was probably jealous a bit, definitely. But I always thought it was interesting the way we could all see who was, you know. And was that done deliberately, you think? I don't know. Don't know. Yeah. And what answer would you come to in terms of the percent that you're responsible for take that success at this point?

22:37musically i'd say most of it for the 90s um but you know standing on a stage i always felt really strong when i was with the band uh our performance was definitely a piece of the success which a lot of other bands didn't have the live event was always a big thing for our band still is and so i i could never feel like i was the biggest part of that so robbie's left yeah You remain with the other guys. And then the decisions taken to break the hearts of millions of girls around the world and boys and go your separate ways. Was there any fear at this point from you? No. Not an ounce? Not an ounce of fear.

23:20No. I mean, we all sat and made the decision. Everyone was ready for just like, just take this burden away. It just felt too much. In what way? So you describe it as a burden. that's interesting yeah it it was not fun anymore it was just crazy i'm i remember um we were in like singapore or somewhere on tour and we were going home the next day and of course we'd all or we'd all know what we were going home to just just you know lines of people outside your house and you couldn't do anything i remember us phoning saying to nigel can we go somewhere else and he'd be like you've been away for five months I don't want to go home it was just too much so the band ends yeah but Gary Barlow's only just beginning at this point the self-belief is still sky high yeah you're ready to tackle the world and you're ready to tackle America how did that go?

24:18we'd just had Back for Good out so it was our biggest record to date and we'd had a hit with it in America we had a top five record with it We ended up doing Letterman and all these things. And we came home and dissolved the band, and I was ready to go back. And one of the guys that run the record label there, he said, I don't care that the band split up. I want the guy who wrote that. And it was me. So he said, get him over here. We'll make a record with him. So I arrive in America, and we have this very, very weird record-making process with Clive Davis, who's the head of Arista. very big personality in america well-known uh record executive signed whitney houston aretha frank i mean just a massive exactly how you'd imagine a record executive to look i knew who he was but i didn't know anything about his history but it was very clear to me very early on he just didn't like my songs i was taking things in and he was like no no no but how was that for you because you hadn't had that kind of management or conversation much, had you?

25:27Well, I'd say to him, well, listen, I'm going to release that next month in England. I'll have a massive hit with it. So I don't know what the problem is. You know, yeah, he just didn't get it. And so kept suggesting these cover versions and I'm just like, what do I want to do that for him? But I knew he was the key to getting into America. So I was trying to do two things. I was trying to write something which he liked. So all of a sudden, for the first time, I'm now trying to write to someone else's taste. So that was really odd. So, of course, it's not coming from the heart anymore. It's not coming from my place.

26:07It's coming to try and please somebody, and I just think as soon as you start doing that, you're on a road to nowhere. So what we ended up with is this hopscotch album of things he liked, things I liked. it was weird it was a weird weird record but we'd worked on it for so long and we'd spent so much money recording it so many trips and it just had to come out and I knew I knew it was wrong and I was proved right people just did not connect with it at all coupled with the fact that Robbie was having these big hits now as a solo artist and it was just like the perfect story it's the perfect press story that two guys from the same band are coming out one's making great music we're hearing from someone we've never even we've never even heard his voice before this guy you know we've never heard him write songs before and they're great songs versus this guy who is now a watered down version of who he was before he went to america it just played itself out as badly as it could and so by the time we sort of released two records that didn't do anything from that album rca dropped me we go back and tell us about that incident with clive davis that you recount in your show because you know that that opening night party to introduce you to america yes what really resonated with me and your retelling of it was the wisdom of your dad from connor's key working men's club that came back and reminded you to show you that it doesn't matter how big a stage you are common sense is common sense yeah yeah it was a a real moment that night i had a single that i didn't write was a cover version but clive was happy this is the big launch great great great and you're gonna be on my pre-grammy party tonight so now i'm like grammys new york Clive Davis, this is it.

28:08So I get on the Concorde, they fly me over, I land there, and as I land, I go into Clive's office, because we've got an afternoon rehearsal, and he says, it's going to be amazing, you're going to launch yourself tonight, we're going to play the new song, however, I've got a remix of it. The word remix straight away, because, you know, I'm in a pop band. I'm not in a dance band. I'm in like a pop band. I'm used to like radio music. So on comes this mix and literally the slices of my vocal in this track, like pieces have all been moved and the verse is where the chorus used to be and it's all jumbled up.

28:48And I'm sat there listening and I'm thinking, this is not right, but he's Clive Davis. I'm just a guy from Frodsham. What do I no I've got to do it this is the doorway to America I've got to get on there tonight so we go to this rehearsal and I'm stood on the stage and and and the mute the backing tracks on and I'm thinking where the hell is I just don't know where anything is and I know what I should have done I should have said I'm going home I'll see you next year at the pre-grammy party because this isn't right but I didn't I thought I'm gonna I'm gonna learn this thing and I'm gonna go on and I'm going to kill the audience tonight, like I always do.

29:29Thinking I had two hours then to spare so I could learn this thing, they drag me into this room where it's like a reception for this pre-Grammy thing, and there's like 500 people, and the record label are literally wheeling me round, you know, like the boss of MTV America. Hey, nice to meet you, and I'm loving this. The boss of MTV America, you know. VH1, oh, nice to meet. You know, it's like literally a who's who. Aretha Franklin and her manager, nice to meet you. I've realised two hours has gone by. I can't even remember what this bloody track starts like, never mind finishes. So I literally like grab someone from the label, they've got a cassette of the backing track.

30:13I go into the dressing room and I start, I played it once, twice round and I'm just thinking, there's no way out of this. it doesn't make any sense. I'm not joining the dots here. I'm the guy who rehearses for six weeks before one song's performed. It's just like, what am I doing here? And I was trying to think, how do I get out of this? And at the point I'm thinking, I need to just go. I can hear him introducing me on the stage. And I realised that I've got to go through this now. And I just thought the magic was going to come to me. I just thought I've had so much luck over the years. Something's going to help me get through the next three minutes.

30:56And of course, everything was wrong. I was singing in a bit where I shouldn't have been singing and the music was playing notes that it wasn't playing, that my voice was singing. It was just the worst, the worst three minutes, I think, of my whole life, where you just want the ground to swallow you up. And also realising that this is the end. There's no coming back from this. There's no second performance to launch yourself in America. This was it. This was what every artist wanted. And I got it. And this is where I am with it. And I remember wandering off the stage and thinking, that's the end.

31:35That is it. I'm going home. It was very telling because the whole day I'd been in New York, I'd minimum 8 to 12 people around me, you know, you're great, you're going to be good tonight, you know, great, let's get to know each other, let's exchange numbers. When I walked off the stage, there was nobody. And I walked off the side of the stage, into the reception at the plaza, through the doors, and walked all the way down Fifth Avenue to my hotel, and there was nobody with me, and it was raining, and it was like, that's the end of that. And what was that words of advice that you remembered that your dad had given you at that moment?

32:14Well, my dad always wanted me to rehearse. The rehearsal for him was his only way of, because my dad was a working man, so he had like two jobs, and his only way of relating work to what I did, because it's not work what I do, was the rehearsal. So when those words come back to me, you'd never do anything without rehearsal. That's why you need to rehearse. And I hadn't done any of it. So you're now in this period where the guy who has become your rival, Robbie, is having superstardom. You've had this awful episode in America. You've come back home. Like I'm guessing at this point, if you've lost your record deal, you don't have a record deal.

32:59So you're not performing. You're not working. You've lost everything that is kind of your North Star that you understand. And what was going on in your head at that point? Well, I'll take it year by year, because it went across about seven years, this did. So the first year I was blaming everybody else. The second year I was blaming myself. And the third year it was becoming real that that was the end. There was no way I could ever see myself recording or singing. I'd stopped singing completely, stopped. playing on a piano and it was driving me crazy. So what's your day look like at this point in your life?

33:41So it was an interesting one because as my sort of career life went down the toilet, my personal life was on and up because we'd had two kids. Life outside the studio was great. I'd do this thing where I hear this a lot where I'd say, all right, I'm going into the studio now, everybody. And dad would go off to do his day's work and I'd literally sit in there and I'd just be looking around the room thinking, what am I going to do? What could I do that would be useful to anything? And I'd sit in there and I'd look at the clock and I'd come out at four and go, anyway, that was a good day. And I'd act this day of being in the studio, pretending I was doing something.

34:22I was doing nothing. Some days just sort of watching the piano, thinking, I used to write big hits on that thing. Slowly going insane, really. really yeah felt that bad oh it was it was really dark

34:44so you were in this beautiful house you'd had all this great success but you were totally empty at this point because i wanted to make music yeah i love music so much and i wasn't even listening to music at that time it's i really detached myself from music so what did the piano represent for you then at that moment you say you looked at it and thought well the piano was the with the enemy because the piano was remember the piano is the vein to all things good because when I sit at the piano magic happens you know because this song that I'm making today will go on a record and people will be singing it in stadiums and piano is a good place now it wasn't I couldn't even play it properly it was just like a different language at that point but what surprises me about that is almost like the fragility of your confidence you know because the bit up until take that as you're describing you built your confidence on really strong evidence you've done your 10 000 hours you've sat on the stages you've watched the audience then you've had somebody that's bolstered your confidence in the world of commercial pop yeah but then you've got lots of evidence again that says you can do this stuff and I'm just really intrigued as to why that one incident as horrific as it sounds was able to dismantle all the evidence that you'd accumulated prior to this it defeated me my mind left me completely and it's a funny thing creativity it's and it is delicate it is very delicate and it's why I said earlier about the managers you've if you're a manager of somebody or you're a a partner of somebody who's creative it's just like you gotta be so careful around them because that line of feeling confident about what you're doing it's the only way you can create that i just don't believe someone who doubts themselves can create wholeheartedly it just doesn't work without that belief so what was the thing then that derailed you so much in that period.

36:53Was it that for the first time in your whole life you had failure as a musician? Was it the success of Robbie? Or was it the fact that, I mean, I remember this period, like the public reveling in it, people enjoying the claps of someone who had been such a huge star? The shaming was hard because it's a very public thing. It made going out very hard because people would say things. And soon as that happens, that's now three months of being at home without leaving that's what it would be for me because it was just so excruciating to you just wanted to crawl into a hole and sort of mentally for me the one thing that I I was being very clever with is that I was putting weight on and the more weight I put on the less people recognize me which meant people weren't saying things um so I went through this whole period then of of um being unhappily overweight but kind of happy because it was doing something for me yeah and i'd killed the pop star so it was like i'd controlled something for the first time in ages so was it a relationship with food thing or was it a an issue with a body like a body image thing or i think it all spurred from the shaming I think it all came from that I wanted to go out but I didn't want to go out because of the thing and also we were the kids were going to school and things and I wanted to go to school and be part of the football practices and all these things and as I was I couldn't do that and so this really answered a whole heap of questions for me and I felt incredibly proud of myself at the time I thought this is fantastic you know I've hidden but can we I mean that's such a powerful word that shame yeah and I think it's worth exploring it because I think that's what like it comes loaded with so much fear yeah you know like even as you're saying it to me I'm it feels quite a foreboding thought what was it that was causing you shame we were in an era of media where there was no hold barred you could do anything say anything about anybody um and i specifically remember a few headlines that were in newspapers at the time relight my friar back for pod and there'd be pictures of me overweight you know coming out of a pub or something but the big thing was the robbie success because the robbie success was like channel five made a documentary on it and all that and of course I saw it all and watched it all when Rob went on the Brits and you know said I was the talent all those things I watched them all that was the shame for me it was just like you're just like the the butt of a joke and Rob talked about it years later and and he he actually said that it became something where it wasn't me it was just a great way of if he was in a room and he wanted to make them all laugh he'd make a joke about me he said I'd get a reaction he said And it wasn't about you.

40:07It was just the fact that I was nervous and I wanted to get this room on my side. And you were the thing I reached for when we started working together again in 2005, which was when the band sort of reformed. We all had this hesitance because, you know, I'm just telling you my story. Everyone had a story around that time. And maybe some of them don't sound as dramatic as mine did, but everyone went through something in those years off. and so we all came back with a real hesitancy and a sort of like you know we don't want to put our hands too close to this fire you know and it was good that we did we second guessed a lot of things and did you discuss it and have a bit of sort of group therapy very much so we discussed was that we discussed in that first year we talked more than we'd ever talked in the 90s as people, as brothers, as humans.

40:59So what was like the most telling observation that you heard from your bandmates during that time that you still hold on to today? Well, a band is an interesting thing because I've just been with Mark and Howard for two weeks and it's a very, it's an interesting, because, you know, I've known those guys longer than I've known my wife. You know, we've got a very, very close bond together. I didn't really want to join a band in the 90s. I didn't really want to... I enjoyed it, but I was always looking forward to going solo. When I came back to the band in 2005, I really felt like I was in a band for the first time I'd ever been.

41:41I'd never really been in the band the first time round. When I came back, I felt the strength of other people who were like me. You know, we've all been through something and only us know how it feels like. and it felt so strong. So if you fast forward a few months, we stood on a stage together and I'm looking down the line and I'm like, wow, this is just the best thing ever. But it just felt so healing and so safe. It felt like the first time I'd been in a safe place for a long time. See, the very term there that you describe about feeling safe, I find significant. We've had lots of leaders on this podcast that have spoken about the importance of psychological safety to create a space where people can make mistakes, make cock-ups, admit errors without feeling you're going to be castigated or made to look silly for it.

42:36And I appreciate it wasn't just you, it was your bandmates as well. How did you go about creating an environment where you felt that word safe that you've used a few times? It wasn't forced, interestingly. It wasn't forced at all. one of our big leaders who was a silent leader in the 90s but he became more of a leader of us when we came back as a group was Jason he was one of five brothers so he was used to the family pyramid and a band is a family pyramid and as one leaves or one leaves the room you all reshuffle position it's very interesting he was wise he told us a few things and a few situations appeared and he resolved them and he was someone we all came to look up to a lot.

43:28Me, especially, has been the one who was always leading. I always felt that pressure of, I've got to look like I know what I'm doing even though I don't know what I'm doing. You know, it was shared all of a sudden. And also, for me, valuing the people around us then as well. We all said when we got back together, right, let's lose all the dickheads this time. Let's just have the good people back. And we did. We got all the good people back and they were valued. That's where we brought them into our circle. It wasn't us and them. It was us. And that's where we really started going up. The gigs were getting bigger.

44:06It was no surprise that. It was no surprise that it was good what we were doing. And it was real. You know, those first sort of six years, they were just sublime. You know, up to Robbie coming back. You know, the perfect end to the story. Rob comes home. The best years of any of the years in the band were those years. And would they have been the best years if you hadn't had to go through what you went through? I guess the question is, were you able to make peace with the trauma of that really difficult time? I think so. I think so, yeah. You know, the rise back's been so worth it. It was worth those years of pain because the person that comes out at the other end of it is I think a better person, a nicer person to be around, a nicer person to be in a band with, a nice person to be married with or be a father to.

44:57It's just been the making of me, those horrible, horrible years. And for people who are still in the difficult place at the moment and are maybe struggling with their self-worth and their own confidence, the one thing we haven't told, the one part of the story we haven't touched on is how you went from taking the mirrors down in your house because your self-loathing was so great to being able to be back on stage with the band. Like, for someone listening to this, what was your first step to recovery that could perhaps be theirs? A lot of these roads we're talking about were never sort of parallel.

45:30They seemed to happen at different times. It was almost like phases I was going through in those years where I wasn't on the screen and on a stage. The non-stop eating thing was towards the end of that. I really think the thing that led me out of that was coming back into our band again because all of a sudden I couldn't do this anymore because I had a purpose again and I also knew I'm not meant to be this guy I'm better than this I need to sort this out um I was a big smoker at the time as well I was like really like a lot of and I was and almost that was one of the hardest things to get over the cigarettes was so tricky but I knew I had people I had to deliver for.

46:15I couldn't carry on with this. And so that was a big part of me sort of really putting that to bed. Do you remember the first thing that you did? Yeah, I went for a run. That's the first thing I did. With all the weight and while smoking? Yeah, I hadn't done exercise in such a long time. And I have to say exercise is so much a part of my everyday. I'm a different songwriter when I exercise. I'm just a different person. I cannot advocate it enough of how much good you get from it. But the first run I did, I was so out of shape. I was so hilariously big at the time that I shouldn't have been running to start with.

47:01But it felt brilliant to run. It felt brilliant to move, to feel air going across my face, for my knees to be lifted. It just felt so ridiculous and funny is that I just remember giggling to myself, walking back thinking I've got a lot to do here, but you know what? It's all right because I'm on the, I'm on the road now. You know, I've, I've put the shoes on for the first time, turned up. And I think that once I'd done that, I felt so good instantly. A minute later, I felt so good. I thought, well, I've got to do this again tomorrow and i did i run every day for the next two years and slowly this guy disappeared in my trail in the dust did you have therapy and stuff i didn't you know really no i didn't i didn't music was the place i was turning to and what about your wife and children at this time gary because you made the comment there about that that you felt you had that sense of purpose again yeah getting back on stage.

48:01What difference did they see in you as a partner and as a parent? Oh, my wife was so happy when she saw me back on stage again because she knows how happy I am to do that and be involved in music. She has this habit she does. So when she first came to watch a live show, she doesn't sit in the audience. She sits by the monitor man, the guy that does. so I have ear things in when I they're called in ear monitors and in those monitors I get my own private mix so I get the mix no one else hears not the band or I get my own mix where my voice is loud I have the guitars panned one way the drums in the middle the keyboards over here and she loves to sit listening to my mix so she's the only one experiencing what I'm experiencing and yeah she loved it she's just so proud and and still is but but at that period she she knew it's what i needed do you mind me asking what what she did for you in the dark days for people who are listening to this and maybe they are a partner of someone who's struggling what what was the thing she did yeah she was amazing you know because she never grilled me she never pressed me about anything she probably knew i was doing nothing in the studio all day but she never she was never confrontational about any of it no no nothing at all even now though you know the the this is the thing with music is that even when you're not doing it it takes up your mind is that i can be distant you know and that's the only point she'd ever go hey put that phone down now come on get in here why distant because music takes so much it's not like coming home and putting a briefcase under the the the desk and not thinking about work till the next day music follows you around you know so as I'm having dinner I'm thinking oh that's the end of that line it's just so it's so annoying for everyone else but creativity it doesn't happen between 11 and 4 in the afternoon it just happens when it wants to happen so often for me it can be in the middle of a holiday or you know and it can just happen at the worst times.

50:13Wow and so what advice would you give to anybody that maybe have a partner or a friend that's struggling? Like, what really helped you to eventually come through it? I don't think there is a one thing, but the only thing I would say is that, and it's very simple this, but it's just be nice to each other. Just try and be nice to each other because if you really do that, things are great. you know of course it's impossible to always have that but like if you if you go into the day saying something nice or i just think it's a very simple thing it's just like support who you're with it's great and you know you needed her in those difficult times for you and i know that she would have needed you after the yeah very sad loss of your daughter poppy you mind talking about that no no just for a moment because um it's the most moving moment of the of the stage show yeah that we came to watch and you know you uh you really are able to make the audience feel how you were feeling at that time yeah what was the process that you went through to be able to write that incredible song about her and about the whole period well i'm always desperate to put things into music because like I said earlier my therapy is always music and also you know for anyone who's been through what we went through by the way over the years I've realized it's so common it really is it's tragically more common than you think is that you have so little you have so little you don't have any memories you don't have any photographs very few photographs you have so little so you try and make as much out of what you've got as possible and the music was such a big because I look back actually at that whole album and that's her in there captured forever and so for me when I go out every night on a stage and say that again it's an extension of what she gave me in that brief time that's what that period's been like for me it's it's about adding to things that we never got the chance to experience.

52:32And the more I can do that, the more I can either put it into music or talk about it, or it gives more light to her. Yeah. That lyric, fly high and let me go. It is kind of, oh, I mean, it's, it's moving, but it's painful at the same time, isn't it? That message to her. And I didn't want it to be painful. I wanted it to feel, because there's parts of it that isn't painful there's the good things that that an experience like that leaves is is as good as the bad you know definitely a togetherness because one thing me and my wife were told when that happened because we did we did some grief therapy after that is that some crazy figure like 97 % of couples split up after that which you can understand but it hasn't been like that for us it's actually brought us closer.

53:21It's amazing what it does to you as a person. The adversity is a terrible thing to go through at the time, but you do find positives in it. What an honour to be able to sing her song in front of those. I mean, that must be for you. What a moment. And it's also a moment when I do just a music show and it's just a song in the set. People are jumping up and down to that song. It's a massive reaction. And you play it late in the evening, you know, and it's just I look out and go there's the light right there it's so beautiful really is I've really enjoyed this conversation I get a real sense of like a freedom now because you know you've been through all these things you've learned from all these things it's almost like it does create that suit of armor that well what can affect me because look at what's come my way and yet here I am still standing still performing still a dad a husband um I suppose my question really before we move on to the final quickfire questions is what's it all for now like you've had a great career you've made your money you've had your children wonderful there's so much always going on with you i always see like seven or eight gary barlow projects happening why are you always so busy i love it though i love it so much i do what's the not to love it's great have you ever tried to take a i remember i heard you once being interviewed yourself i'm going to try and take a year out did that ever happen i did though i did do a year out covid it was before covid but isn't that you were doing those sessions weren't you where i saw you doing the online stuff where you had other artists yeah i love it so much this is the good stuff now you know this is the stuff where you get to say no to things where you decide what you want to do it's brilliant do you leave room for the things that you really want to do because i don't want to sound morbid but you never know what's around the corner.

55:10Yeah. Do you make sure that you carve that out now? I think so. Yeah, it's taken me a... It's funny, when I meet other artists, whether, you know, you're on a concert or something, whenever you meet artists, the first thing everyone always says is, what about your balance between work and home? Is it good? It's always one of the first things that comes up. And I've definitely got it wrong over the years, but I feel like I'm getting it right at last at this point. I'm definitely not as hard on myself as I used to be. I'm definitely not as serious as I used to be. I think you've got to have a humour with what you're doing.

55:45I've definitely taken the stress out of my world and it's just left all the enjoyment, which is lovely. So how do you do it? I'm desperate to know that for myself in a selfish point of view. So tell us your criteria of how you make a decision to go, I'll do that, but I won't do that. Okay, I'll make it very simple here. I look at something and think, that's a pain in the arse, that. It's going to need this, this, this. When you look at, you're like, we want you to make a musical. Oh, that's four years. It's works. Oh, no. This. Oh, 45 minutes. Oh, yeah, I'll do that. It's like, if the level of pain in the arse is here, oh, someone else can do that.

56:30There you go. I always say, it has to fit into three things. Profit Passion or purpose I think if it fits Into one of those Three things Then you can consider it But other than that Yeah yeah The purpose thing Is definitely a big one For me What's yours? Well I think I've tried to always Never do anything That isn't related to music So for instance Like I wouldn't be On a quiz show It's not related to music So whenever I've Done TV things Or whatever As long as it's rooted In music Then I probably know What I'm talking about And I've done This whole wine escapade's been hilarious for me because I love wine, by the way.

57:08But when we started talking about making my own wine, it was just like, you know, 100 bottles, a couple of my mates have a case each. And I have a bit for Christmas. And it's just all a bit of a laugh. I think we're approaching 800 ,000 bottles of wine we've sold now. And it's just like, this has got out of hand because it was never meant to be this. But there's no seriousness of like, we've got to make this quota. we've got to achieve this it's not come from that it's come from a passion of a hobby you know you can watch a concert and drink a nice glass of wine it's somewhere in there is a relationship to what i do and what who i am and my hobbies so authenticity authenticity needs to be at the center of it right ready for some quick fire questions oh yeah the three non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you should be buying into well i think the thing I talked about earlier about being nice to one another is definitely a big thing and supportive as well and that's been a journey for you from the early days yeah and also I have a team around me as well so you know music team and you like being supportive and and and embracing here we go other people's ideas imagine that in the 90s um I'm big on that I love people coming up with ideas and seeing their work for them come to life is nearly as good as seeing my own ideas come to life.

58:35But yeah, working as a team, big one. Second one. So have I given you two? I think that was one. Was that one? Was it? Yeah, the team thing though, that's a big one. Okay, I'll take a second, yeah. Yeah, that's a big one because the team has been massive for me in the last sort of 16 years. Let me do another one. Well, the fun. Yeah. Because the thing is with any of this is that I try and always remind everybody around me is that we're in the entertainment industry. It's got to be fun, right? If it's starting to feel like we're pulling teeth, we should probably start what we're doing, you know.

59:09And you know what I love about those three? If we'd have gone to a 21-year-old Gary Barlow and said three non-negotiables of fun, teamwork and kindness. Probably wouldn't have existed. Yeah. Brilliant. What's your biggest weakness and your greatest strength? I think my greatest strength is experience. I think that I've definitely put my hours in over the years. And that's not being, I'm stating a fact here. I have. I've spent thousands of hours on stages, millions of hours in studios. You know, I've definitely put, I think experience is a real strength. I think if you're interested in something, do it.

59:48And then when you've done it, do it again and keep doing it. Because at some point then it's going to just be like a muscle and work for you. Weakness. Let me have a think about this for a second. I do still take some things too seriously. And I have to remind myself of some of those things we just listed. but less so nowadays that's probably the you know taking things too seriously is always there on my shoulder somewhere where do you think that comes from? I think it comes from the perfectionism which I've tried to lose over the years because of course we all know nothing's perfect but it's hard in music I always look at Elton John as a perfectionist he is someone who is completely obsessed by music I mean, you know, he's on a whole other level to me.

1:00:40You know, all he wants to talk is music and football. But it's still, you know, at his age where he should be, you know, just basically having a good time, he is still listening to as much music. You know, as I think I've got to the end of a good year and I've done 150 gigs, I look, and Elton's done 250. I mean, he just puts us all to shame. The perfectionism is definitely still a weakness for me. Your biggest mistake and what you learned from it? Well, I think my biggest mistake comes from the Clive Davies area, is not trusting the small man in a voice, because that's who I was then. And I should have trusted all those years I'd done what I'd done, because it led to such a catastrophic turn of events that it possibly could have gone a different way that day.

1:01:33So I didn't listen to my gut instincts, and I've never, ever not done that again. If you could go back to one moment of your life, what would it be and why? If I could go back, you know, I'd put myself somewhere in that period of the early noughties because I'd love my kids to be young again. We'd give anything for our kids to be little again. I felt like I could have got more out of those years than I did. I was sidetracked with what was going on in my life. it's the only regret I have in all that time was I could I could have been around more as a dad than I was the final question your last message really for people that have listened to this fascinating conversation you're I know you don't like giving advice or your own learning so you're too modest for that but this is your kind of what you'd love to leave ringing in people's ears your one golden rule for for a high performance life i think it's finding what really gets you excited just embrace it don't care what anyone thinks about you know it's just like if it lights your day up then just jump inside it and enjoy it i've found this with music over the years there's to do the bit i love there's all this bullshit around it which you've got to do as well that's part and parcel.

1:02:55I've come to terms with that over the years, but there's so many things to take you away from music. Don't let it. Stay in there. Enjoy it and get as much out of it as you can because I'm a better person at the end of the day when I've been in the middle of that bright light. I just, it's such a love of my music. So whatever you love, get in there. Love that. Gary, thank you so much for that conversation. like I just think it's so easy when you're in the moment to think I don't want all of this difficult stuff I don't want the negativity I don't want the challenge but look what it's given you look at the freedom the experience the learning the wisdom that you now carry to really enjoy every minute of every day like yeah many people never get to that point so I'm so pleased for you thank you thank you I think I'm there

1:03:48Damien, Jake, that is a life lived. Incredible, wasn't it? I think somebody that's started out learning his craft. I love the, I remember reading an American author called Daniel Coyle spoke about with your children, look for that mouth open moment where your kids are look agar-gar, just completely immersed in something because he said, used that as the opportunity to go and explore what is it that intrigues him and from the moment of him discovering that he loved music and was happy to lock himself in a bedroom for six months to learn how to play a chord or to record a song that to me was really fascinating i really hope that for people who are struggling they realize that he was at a point where you probably couldn't get much lower and he got out of it but i also think for people who feel like they're existing as the superstar of their own universe take the warnings from gary barlow life's a team sport it took him a big knock a huge knock to realize the value that other people can bring to his life yeah you know when hubris meets your nemesis it often doesn't have happy consequences and i think for him the hubristic nature of assuming that he was infallible and then to meet his nemesis of someone like Robbie Williams that went off and achieved his own incredible success that you know he used that term the next few years were catastrophic for him and I think a little bit of humility goes a long way I really enjoyed it thanks mate thanks mate loved it as always huge thanks for listening to High Performance if you want to watch it you can do that as well You can find us on YouTube.

1:05:33Just type in High Performance Podcast onto YouTube. Join the millions of people who watch our content on there as well. I sometimes think it's a bit more emotional when you can really see the whites of someone's eyes when they're talking about the kinds of things that Gary has just discussed with us. and there's only one thing I ask from you in return for this content which we are determined will always be free for you we just want you to hit the subscribe button for you to subscribe to high performance it grows our channel it means we can get bigger and the bigger we get the greater the names we can attract and the greater the names we can attract then the more influence they can have in your life thank you so much for listening thank you so much for being part of our high performance family we love this community we love the feedback we love the direction that things are moving in and we can't wait to share more with you see you soon