E196 - Kevin Sinfield: Why I’ll never stop fighting for my friend Rob

0:00Hi there, I'm Jake Humphrey and this is High Performance. The award winning podcast downloaded that over 50 million times that takes the lessons and learnings from some of the planet's most fascinating people. We remind you that your version of high performance is already within. It is simply doing the best you can where you are with what you've got. Realizing life is a series of seemingly small decisions that can often create big changes. Right now, allow Professor Hughes and myself to remind you of your power by unlocking the mind of another fascinating guest. today this awaits you whilst ever Rob were willing to fight like I was willing to fight I felt like he needed to see me fight with him when you find somebody who gets MND what I've been told by family members is friends disappear family members stop visiting and I thought I'm not doing that I'll be with him every step and he'll always know that I'm there my job is to try and get from A to B in one piece to try and raise a load of money so that the specialists and surgeons and the best MND people across the UK can get their heads together and try and find a cure.

1:13And for those who don't know, what we did was run around the number seven. We'd run 7K an hour. Whatever we left in the hour, we had as a break. We went every hour on the hour. We got a member of the MND community to ring a bell one minute before a start to let us know exactly why we're there. We heard their story. It fueled us to go. this family is I think they've shown us because they've been so public as well they've shown us what living is sometimes we lose track of what's important and how we met the most out of the time we get here we don't get a long time so how do we use it I think they've shown us all what living is and how to make the most of your time and I'd also say I think they've shown us all what love is So it's a welcome return to high performance for Kevin Sinfield we sat down with Kevin at Twickenham just a few days ago actually straight after their premiership rugby final.

2:04So apologies for some of the noise that you might hear in the background. But what a conversation this was. It was so wide-ranging, topics that Kevin isn't often asked about. But of course, we also speak about things that he discusses often in great detail. We talk about his incredible support of Rob Burrow. He also shares why he would have done it for any of his former teammates. We discuss the fact that quitting can sometimes be a positive, how he deals with self-doubt, how despite what it looks like from the outside he is far from perfect and how the experiences he's had in the last couple of years have changed his outlook on life i really hope that you find this an educational powerful uplifting and moving episode of the high performance podcast don't forget in return for listening to this all we ask is one simple thing that you just hit subscribe But right now, enjoy the incredible Kevin Sinfield on the High Performance Podcast.

3:10Well, Kevin, welcome back to High Performance. Thank you. So when we last met, it was two years ago when we spoke in those days that we were having to do it over Zoom, weren't we? And we asked you at the start of the interview, what is your version of high performance? And the two things you picked out was getting the best out of yourself and others and taking risks. So two years on, if I ask you, what is high performance? Is it the same? Has it changed? Has it evolved? Probably pretty similar in my answer. Getting the best out of myself, getting the best out of those around me. Since that day we were on last time, obviously things have changed a little bit for me.

3:47Certainly taking risks. took a few of those but find myself now more hands-on with the players and within a coaching team so I would certainly still say getting the best out of others and myself is really important. And you know you're really well known now as well for all the hard work that you've done for motor neurone disease for Rob Burrow and his family I wonder whether how close you've become to that world in the last few years has maybe altered a bit of your perspective on life which I guess in turn alters maybe your perspective on high performance as well. yeah I think a lot I massively changed but everything I've changed to I already had an element of and what I mean by that is I was a captain for pretty much since I was 10 professionally I had 13 years at the Rhinos and part of your job is to care and look after people and make sure the team is in the best place possible this has been an extension of that and when you finish playing live takes a massive shift because in many ways you're lost and you're starting again and trying to find an identity and trying to find the big big word I'd use is fulfillment where do you get that in this next period this next chapter and I was really conscious that rugby wouldn't define the rest of my life so you start again at 35 and trying to work out which path to go down now I feel very fortunate because I know why I'm here know why I'm on this earth and that's 12 people unfortunately it took a massive terrible tragic event for me to work out what that was and and that was rob being diagnosed and the work we've been able to do um for the mnd community ever since that point and for rob and the family unfortunately for me it took a massive shift like that to really grab hold of what came next i've had so much fulfillment from trying to help this wonderful community of people who for many years have had this illness has been swept under the carpet and and they've been lost they've had to deal with the challenges this disease throws on their own so being able to try and provide a bit of hope to that community they're a beautiful community they are so tough like mentally tough fighters warriors the absolute best of us but they've got a spirit and a humor about them that is it's the best of us and and that's gripped me and I'm passionate about it.

6:07And actually, it's massively helped me coaching. Like when you think my shift in my job as well, having gone through some of the things I've gone through the last three and a half years, you add to that the experience from rugby that I had, you know, means I have a pretty fulfilling life at the minute. So maybe we should talk about that then, how what you've done and seen has impacted the work you do elsewhere, your rugby coaching, because that's very interesting. Yeah, so Rob got diagnosed in a couple of days after his diagnosis and he went public, we went to see Doddy up in Carlisle and he was brilliant.

6:41It was one of the best meetings I've been at. A sad meeting, but a really uplifting meeting. I had 6 '10 Doddy Weir, stood next to 5 '4 1⁄4 of Burrow, and it was comical, the picture we've got, and it still makes me laugh today. We've got these two absolute warriors and champions in different sports who come together in horrific circumstances, but actually Doddy's impact on me and Rob Rob in particular that day but a friendship was born for Doddy and I too and then a car journey home which you do what any mate would do which is how much do you need like we've been rugby league players so that means you have a brilliant lifestyle but you don't have enough money to carry you through the rest of your life you're going to have to work again and there's something special about that by the way I really do I think there's something really important for us as sports people to know that you have to go again and you can't just rest on your laurels there's a challenge set down for you part of that journey home it was a bit teary between the two of us and we agreed on an amount of money and i promised him by christmas 2020 he'd wake up christmas morning with that amount of money so that he didn't have to worry himself or concern himself with financial aspects of being a family man all he had to concern himself with was living his life to the full.

8:04And at that stage, we didn't know how long Rob would be here. The stats are 50 % die within the first two years, third die in the first 12 months. So he's staring down the barrel, but not quite sure when someone's going to pull the trigger on him. So brilliantly, the club, the Rhinos, and our former team start to set some fundraising activity up for him. And loads of the players did different things, but there was two big things in particular. Jamie Jones shared his testimonial game. We played Bradford, 20 ,000 people. live on Sky Sports and some of the old boys put their boots on for a couple of minutes Rob played for about five minutes at the end it was a really touching emotional moment and they also ran a big gala dinner probably the biggest dinner the club had ever done sports stars from all over the UK supported there was jerseys coming in from all different football, rugby, netball like the jerseys coming and it were a fantastic do and then as we know Covid hit we then find ourselves in lockdown and watch Covid destroy families and businesses across the UK.

9:05But we get to September and I'm scratching my head a little bit. So I'm run for it at this stage because in our hour a day that we all got where we could go outside, I've been running. And I'm conscious that I've made Rob a promise that by Christmas, he'd have this money and he was short. So I'm right, I'm going to have to do something. I'm like, I'll run. and you start to go well what can it be so obviously rob's number seven and we go i'm gonna do seven marathons in seven days they're all under four hours because we could do six or seven or eight hours but actually for people to get behind us and support they need to understand that most people don't run a marathon under four hours so we'll do all seven under four try and raised 77 ,777 and that was the start, that was the start of then, we get the challenge done and I felt like the ready Brett man, the team were fantastic, there were six of us we couldn't have more than six because of the Covid protocol, now I was working at direct rugby at Leeds so I knew the professional protocol for Covid team we got tested two days before, set out and put these runs together out the back of my car, very raw and real no real science behind it but we give it a crack we got it done and I think by the end of day 7 we were at 1.4 million currently sitting now for that first one just over 2.7 million so like the response was incredible BBC Breakfast did a great job with Sally, Claire and Freddie and sport got behind us the M &D community got behind us and we probably got a sweet spot in the rope to Christmas everyone had a few extra quid in the pocket because they'd been on furlough and they hadn't been able to spend the money.

10:52So I supported it. And it, we're at that moment. I knew I had to do something different with my life. See, but what I find remarkable about this, Kev, is that there's a narrative taken hold now that you're doing it for your best mate, Rob. And I know that, like, Jamie Jones Buchanan is your best mate. I know how close that bond is between you and him. So Rob was always a bit of a homebird in that group, that he was very close with Lindsay and his own family. So the thing I find remarkable is you'd have done this for any of that group, wouldn't you? Absolutely. It wasn't because he was your best mate.

11:26It was because he was a teammate. And what I'll try and stress to people is mine and Rob's friendship isn't unique within that group. There's probably, as you know, Damien, right? There's eight, nine, maybe 10 blokes who played together across that 15-year period who I knew that at any moment we'd send the Batman sign up and the lads would come and do their bit and fundraise and that's the beauty of being in a team sport where you've been through some brilliant times together but also some pretty rough ones and I think that's a great thing about rugby of either code because I've found that out as well since being across in Rugby Union the people are very very special now I'm going to include the women's game in this and the girls game because I've seen it there too.

12:17It's just as powerful within that element of the game too. So I think those who've played rugby end up with a really special bond. But let me ask you, because what you're describing is like a really special alchemy that you see that and I think it has a really visceral effect. People are really moved by it. And yet there's coaches, there's support staff that go a career looking to create that and yet you've seen it. So tell us a little bit about how that kind of team spirit of having each other's back through adversity, how do you develop it? It was never something we really talked about. I think what helped was the core group of that team came through together.

13:02So we've known each other since we were 12, 13, 14. And then within that, we probably came into the team when there was no baggage. the club hadn't won trophies for 30 odd years suddenly we won one and then the momentum and lads got offered a lot more money to take contracts at other clubs turned it down because they wanted to stay together and then the longer you are together and the more times you play together and you win trophies together and there's another one knock a big deal back and stays it just tightens up and tightens up and tightens up and I feel very fortunate that my experience from playing in a team was a brilliant one because some like-minded guys decided they were going to work incredibly hard for each other.

13:52And in the bigger moments in games, I knew at times we weren't the best team. And I look at opposition teams who were playing in finals or whatever and go, they're better than us. But what they don't have is the spirit we have. And the best way I can sum that up is you knew that if you made a mistake, someone would cover your backside. And not every team has that. so if if there's coaches listening to this whether it's coaches of an under 10s football team or whether it's a coach of an elite team saying tell me some of the tips that i could use to try and generate that culture where people have each other's back and look out for each other because that's what you're doing now with steve and the england team too the really easy way is you reward what you see all the good things you see so if you're in games someone makes a mistake yet somebody then runs 60 metres to make a cover tackle in a corner, save a try, reward it.

14:46Stick it up on the big screen in front of everyone, tell everyone how important it is. And you keep rewarding and making a big deal about the behaviours you want to see. And we'd have had that with a number of coaches I had. That's when you really rely on each other in games of rugby, I'd say in football and netball, most invasion games. When you defend for each other, that's where you see it. now we did have some Rob was a brilliant attacking player Danny McGuire was a brilliant attacking player and they'd turn up on players when they'd just sniff it and see it it'd be really hard to coach that I think because you just had a natural feel whereas defensively yeah you can definitely coach it and lads want to be praised the vast majority of us want to be praised want to be told we're good at something so by rewarding that you tend to get it the truth is though that rugby remains a tough sport right where the hard decisions are made.

15:40So can we talk about when you decided to leave Leeds and you got frozen out and the head coach was like, not happening when you walked away from rugby league. How did you react to that? And I wonder whether you'd react in a different way now after everything that's happened. Well, I feel like I'm a pretty fortunate one here, Jay, because I got back in the team. So I got left out and I was staring down the barrel of going, this is over for me. It's my 13th year as captain. And what had been said to you, was it just silence? No, there's a chapter in the book about it. The coach at the time, Brian McDermott, who I get on famously with, were good friends.

16:17I think it happens in most teams where there can be a coach-player breakdown or a coach-captain. Sadly for us at the time, he would probably argue, and I'm sure he would, that I weren't playing well enough. My comeback in that would be, for what my game was at that stage in the last few years of my career, it looked very different to early on so I was more get the team around the field but I knew I could get more out of every player than anyone else could so if you were a 6 out of 10 I'd get a 7 if you were a 7 out of 10 I'd get you to an 8 so being left out and the conversation it makes me smile when I look back on it because when you're 17, 18, 19 you're trying to get into a team you're looking for a lot, you're observing the coach, you're observing behaviours, you're observing conversations so So it's not hard to work out when you're in a game of rugby league, there's 13 players.

17:09A coach comes into the gym on selection day and he speaks to his 13 guys. Then he picks his four subs and you see him grab and you tend to have a good idea he's been picked. That particular day, it was a Friday afternoon. Brian named a 13 in the team meeting. I wasn't in it. We go out into the field and again, I feel like I'm 34 at this point, but I feel like I'm 18 because I'm watching the coach and looking for the signals. But in my gut, I knew. I had a feeling he's not going to pick me this week. And I saw him call four other players over and then called me over as number five. And I knew. I knew what was coming.

17:48And the conversation was pretty direct. No eye contact. Don't need you this week. Don't need you next week. We play Huddersfield at home in the cup. The week after we play OK ROA, still no eye contact. I might need you. so I was like right okay what do you want me to do and he said not bothered don't care at that point you're sort of in a bit of a tailspin best way I can describe it the bloke on lock stock and two smoking barrels blows all his money and he comes down them stairs knowing he's lost that were me at that point 34 year old going I'm done here this is how it's going to end following day I go in the lads who were playing the games on the Sunday a given Saturday off.

18:33And I go in and train with those who aren't playing. So 17, 18, 19, 20 year olds. And actually it was brilliant for me in terms of connecting with those guys. Those guys had never seen me drop before, thought were untouchable. Then suddenly I'm in doing fitness. Did you talk about it and use it as an opportunity to? I did later on. Right. But at that point I didn't open up. As I started to get back into the team, things started to, yes. but then I started to speak to him about it and on the Sunday I went to watch with my son the team got pumped pretty heavily at witness the following morning we go in non-playing players are doing fitness those we've played are on recovery Brian's coach's office window opens and asks if I've got a minute the guy who's running the conditioning session says yep you can go up go back into the training ground take me time by the way take my time I bet you do take my boots off saunter up to his room sit in his office and he tells me he may need me this week and that's it back in and how quickly things can change so sort of two and a half three days earlier and your mind's spinning your head's everywhere going I'm done here this is and then suddenly you're back in and you finish the season we win the treble see famously you did go on that final game to win the league leaders trophy was special in its own right but you'd already done the challenge cup and then the grand final how much of what had happened with brian was a fuel for you in those last few games to go on and do the treble from the minute i got back in the team which was the cup game i was like you will never leave me out again i'll show you and what What I did, I knew every single minute I had left to play.

20:30I knew how many training sessions I had. And it's quite sad when I think of it like this now because I always loved training, I loved playing, but I was counting down. So that, I was going to finish with grand final win. And that was my target, but I was absolutely adamant I would never lose my spot. And now that you are a coach and you're working with England, how do you reflect on the no eye contact thing? Because that clearly still sits with you. I understand that it was difficult for him. I do understand he was dropping his captain. There was a fair amount of pressure on him. There'd have been a fair amount of flack, I suspect, as well, from those who were really loyal to you because you'd been there so long.

21:10The fact it ended the way it did makes it really easy to be good friends and to be able to chat things through and try and understand. So as a coach, there's a couple of things. Treat people as you want to be treated. and my big strength I think is never forget what it's like to put your boots on and I remember that so every conversation I have with a player treat them as I want to be treated and then also try and put myself in their shoes and understand exactly where it sits from what their viewpoint is and so that I can try and communicate in a certain way that that lands and we still get an improvement that day yeah I love the phrase that what is hard for you isn't necessarily bad for you and there is an argument that this was obviously hard for you but all these years later it probably makes you a better coach for the fact you went through this if you just sailed through a playing career and never experienced what it's like to be a player being dropped or removed from the from the group or sort of probably made to feel embarrassed i guess going and playing with those young guys when you're the captain you're like the main leader in the team that's given you a real power now to understand you know players going through that they were the most formative experiences that i got the tough ones they're the bits that let you know what you're made of let you find out what character you've got not the one the trophy lifts not the ones in when you're winning by 50 and you just gotta do your bit actually when you're backed into a corner when you gotta come out and fight and show what you're about they were the moments that and i had a number of them I had a lot of them like everyone thinks you've won all these trophies you did this you did that my career there's a lot of fight and adversity and tough moments where you go people probably think oh you just brushed that off but you know could drop for a cup final when I was 19 lost five challenge cup finals the only captain in history to have done it there's only one other player by the way who sits alongside me is losing all five and it's Rob Burrow getting dropped you know in 2015 when actually everybody looks at 2015 and says, this should be the best year of your career.

23:20You win the treble. The club had never done it in 125 years. I'd say I don't look at it like that at all. It's just like, job done. Close the chapter. I'm moving on. This won't define me and I'll use it. But what's really interesting on this is, like when we move on in your career arc, that you persevered, you stuck at it when you were a player there. so let's fast forward when you decide to leave Rhinos as director of rugby and take up a position working with Steve Bartwick at Leicester Tigers now you write about this really powerfully in the book you do three days and then decide to resign to go back home to all them and decide that your venture into rugby union is not for you how did people react to that so they've seen you do resilience, fortitude, stick at it, and then they watch you sort of go back home.

24:14What was the reaction? Yeah, well, do you know what? It's really important. It's in the book because I think there's a message in it that actually at times we all struggle changing jobs and we all have self-doubt and we all have things that we don't want to face up to and front them to. Things seem too hard and actually I want to go away for it. Like it's not, you know, there's some things you want to lean into and there's some things you want to back off from. And I wanted to take some risk. I wanted to be uncomfortable, but I didn't want to be that uncomfortable, if I'm being honest. And I was just, I was drowning.

24:52And I got back. Some of it was I didn't have chance. If I could have done it differently, I would. And what I mean by that is I got up at 4.23 Monday morning, drove to Leicester, coached all day, Got back to the hotel 8 o 'clock at night, got some sleep, up the following morning. I'd not see my kids, not seeing Jane. Go again the following day, stay over again. Work all day Wednesday and drive home. And I get home about 8 o 'clock Wednesday night. So I've gone for the best part of three days, not seeing my wife, not seeing my kids. Started a new job in a different sport with people I don't know.

25:29And it was too uncomfortable. So what I really needed was a couple of hours to reset with my family and think about it and process it and sleep on it rather than just go in, which I did, walked in. And they love me, they know, they know that at times you'll get reactions like that, I'm not perfect. So I drop my bag and say, please don't touch my bag, I'm not going back. Then you sleep on it. I call Steve the following day and say, look, there's a problem here, I'm not coming back. And he was like, well, hold on a minute, can we chat about this? And he was brilliant. He could have really lost it with me and gone, Well, whatever, he could have had a real negative reaction and he didn't.

26:09He got it. He understood it and he massively helped. So you say that you went away. Steve asked for that time. And in the book you say you went to Jersey, was it? And you went for a long walk along the beach. Yep. But you don't reveal what was it he said to you on that walk that changed your mind? So that was about a fortnight after that initial conversation. So I'd obviously gone on Wednesday night, but I'd Thursday at home. went back Friday morning and we had a face-to-face and he asked if I'd give it a go I agreed what I was conscious of was I didn't want to let the players down or the coaches down I didn't want to be somewhere for six weeks and then say I'm out I thought I'm either in it or I'm not and if I'm not I need to tell them now and get out so that they can get someone else and the pre-season's not ruined with a guy who has been here six weeks and then he's gone but very quickly felt the warmth from the coaching team now they didn't know they wouldn't have had a clue and I know Steve wouldn't have brought confidence with that but the support from them was incredible without that I'm not sure I'd have stuck it out because actually genuinely felt like they wanted me there I wanted to help and support and didn't take the mickey when I said what does that mean so when we went for the walk in Jersey it were heart to heart he was asking he was checking in, he was asking where I sat, whether I changed my mind, whether I was happy, a human chat, like no rugby, it was like mate to mate, it was great and at the time I shared with him a couple of things about being his assistant coach, the trust and honesty between us and the fact that I was able to tell him exactly how I felt, it was a testament to him I think after three days I don't know whether a lot of people might have sat on that and locked it away but being able to share that with him I think it really strengthened our friendship which was probably not the best start you could have with your head coach but um and the guy who's in charge but for whatever reason it certainly strengthened our friendship and relationship and he's been brilliant all the way through I couldn't have gone and worked with a better head coach who's been so detailed and knowledgeable, yet so giving in time and understanding.

28:27And I'd say that about that coaching team too. I felt very, very lucky. This may well speak to people listening to this who feel like they're in a place where they feel like maybe they don't belong. But at the same time, if I'm listening to something, hold on, this guy played rugby league all his career, was one of the greatest rugby league players we've ever seen. I know it's a twist on rugby, but it's kind of similar you're in a similar environment like how alien could it have been how how did this amazing leader on the pitch have such sort of instant sort of like an imbalance straight away like it feels so quick to me like i i think any job anyone walks into like three days you don't feel you belong but maybe after three weeks you do and after three months you really should like it's quick you know yeah i agree i think some of that was not having a chance to reset with my family so i'm staring down the barrel now of being away all this time when i know how important they are even those my boys now are 18 and 15 so the moments i have with them tend to be around mealtime and then but they know i'm there and if they need me i'm there suddenly mealtime had gone again that and small interactions um so probably a combination of everything if lester had been 40 minutes away and i'd gone home that night i'm sure it'd have been fine i might have vented and had a really deep conversation with jane and said look i'm struggling here and like what do you think i don't think it'd have ended up me having a conversation with steve on the thursday for a start off but it was just seemed like there was a massive massive problem but actually when you break it down and go right that's the job what what the important elements of the job right the travel the family time how do i get the best balance whereas i just pulled them all together and gone this is too big i hope that there'll be some people who listen to this who go well actually i felt some of this when i changed jobs or i'm about to change job but i've got an idea of what might come now especially if it's very different and when you say rugby in league and union how similar they seem yeah it's hockey and ice hockey they're very different very different can i ask how your wife dealt with this situation yeah she was brilliant she laughed at first and then she realized it was serious yeah realized it was serious don't come back home this was this was great for me yeah i know yeah i know sleep on it yeah i'm sleeping you'll feel better in the morning we're here we'll always be here for you you're and come to the right decision on it, but it's never going to be easy, this.

31:14See, when I'm reading your book, at the same time as all this is happening, you're then deciding to do round two in your fight for Rob and against M &D. So then you decide that time's limited here. So whereas most people might go, well i'll leave it you decide to run a hundred and how many miles 107 miles in 24 hours well it should have been 101 but we did 104 right we got lost twice in 24 hours three months into deciding that you're going to recommit to this job now we'll talk about the endeavor of like the the physical aspects in a bit but i'm interested in the overwhelm how do you cope with those times in life when life's coming at you hard and it's coming at you fast because i think there's a lot of our listeners will sometimes feel like that and i think you've gone to the extremes to learn some extreme lessons yeah well i know how valuable running's been for me i don't particularly like running it's funny because three and a half years ago if you just said to me you'd have wrote a book and you'd run three running challenges i'd have said are you crazy like i'd have ran some marathons but so it does make me smile but I just felt that the fulfillment I got from the first challenge being back in a team with some mates who just took some time off work to give me an hand and I loved it so I was like right let's go again and actually I could feel there was an appetite for us to go again the M &D community whenever I met somebody from that community and now we're talking they're not just meeting people with mnd you were could be in a wheelchair on a breathing apparatus or just starting out on that on that journey there were family members from people who had passed 10 20 30 40 50 years ago who were now stopping in the supermarket and going thank you for what you did your team are brilliant um will you go again because actually you've put a spotlight on this and it means a lot to us we lost such and such a body however many years ago and you've helping us deal with it.

33:22So that was a big driver in going again. Plus, I felt like whilst ever Rob were willing to fight like he was willing to fight, I felt like he needed to see me fight with him or needed to see members of our team, not just disappear. Because I think that's what, when you find somebody gets MND, what I've been told by family members is, friends disappear, family members stop visiting. And I thought, I'm not doing that. I'll be with him every step and he'll always know that I'm there and I can't always get there now because I'm in Leicester but he'll always get a text message from me every two weeks I'll try and be there for him and have 40 minutes an hour with him because it's important that sadly what has happened to other MND sufferers doesn't happen to be met and hopefully it doesn't happen to anybody else who's got MND now or gets in the future so the plan behind the second one, you're right, I didn't have time.

34:21I felt like I weren't in a position to go to Steve and say, can I have a week off? Because I wouldn't mind doing another challenge for my pal. Actually, I think Steve would have supported me. In fact, I'm sure he'd have supported me, but I thought we could try and cram it into one day, which would be a bit of a mistake actually, but it was a way of, I suppose, celebrating two clubs that, I felt Leicester, certainly in those first four to six weeks, really made a huge effort to make me feel welcome a part of it and it was my way as well of saying thank you because we started in last term we ran to lead so it was my way of thanking the rhinos as well i'm really interested in in how what you've seen with rob and his family and other members of the community has changed your your entire outlook on life not just your outlook for yourself you know just getting annoyed by little things and losing your wallet stubbing your toe being late for things just stuff that these kind of micro annoyances that we all have in our lives every day yeah you're absolutely right um every time i see rob i come away uplifted and i come away with a great sense of perspective about what matters so what does family friends so try to be a good person worrying about stuff that might never happen being concerned with watching a game that is a game down in Australia that I don't really need to see but actually might make me a 1 % better coach that week from a tactical perspective but actually me spending that time with family and friends and doing something for me actually gives me a chance of being a 5 % better coach that week because actually I've done some things that I know are important for me and the other people get the best out of me so the perspective's been huge seeing and meeting a lot of people now from the M &D community just how important those connections are in life those human interactions those moments when there's a glint in someone's eye and they're the bits that we all want to spend time on our phone and we've all got all the technological things that take over our life actually I come home from seeing Rob and I'm like my phone doesn't matter where my kids where's my wife who's ringing me on the way home I've not spoken to for six months or whatever so now like everybody else you go from that moment of seeing Rob and you're brilliant for a few days and then technology starts creeping back in and and then I go and see him again and almost reset the beauty about it now is I get to meet so many people with MND or so many families who've been challenged by it that there's a constant reminder yeah so i'm very quickly able to switch back switch back switch back i think you've tapped into a really powerful technique though and you've mentioned it in the book when you're doing these long marathon runs about preparing for grumpy days or grumpy moments where you allow yourself to sort of be short-tempered or to be a bit snappy with others would you tell us a little bit about yeah about that do you know what damien right the funny thing is when i've spoken to the the 17 17 before we've done any challenge i i typically normally say like someone's going to get grumpy someone's going to lose it and and what i'm saying is at some point i will right but within that 99 of what i say when i'm like that is tongue in cheek is for me to find the fun and humor in it now you might say well that's pretty dark and dry but actually it helps get me through.

38:08So I'll give you an example. We're doing the 101 miles from Leicester to Leeds and we get lost. So the guy who's navigating cops are mouthful, right? But by this stage, everybody's into him, right? Because we've found... How many miles in were you by this stage? By this stage, we're probably about 65 mile in. That's an awful distance because you're only just over halfway. You're thinking, we've got another 40 miles to go. Running through a graveyard at 20 to one in the morning. like just not what you want to be doing is it it's pitch black there's gravestones everywhere it's like being on scooby-doo and yeah you just want to be on a well-lit road because you know any minute you trip up it's done so give him a gobful and then suddenly he goes from being at the front on his bike bouncing out of his seat to disappear so i'm then going where is he oh he's back there he's upset send him back up he comes back up i'm sorry i told you i'm gonna be grumpy come on we need you boom you're bouncing out of his seat again he's happy so i actually find humor in it now they don't at the time because and tom in particular the the guy who got us lost he he didn't know my humor and he was new to the guy that got us lost the navigator the navigator yeah Tom was a made up name alright yeah quite right yeah but those in the group who I've got one guy in particular who's known me I don't know 20 odd years he's always with me on his bike he knows exactly when to push when to pull back the complication in the 100 miler was with 7 stages to go and for those who don't know what we did was run around the number 7 we'd run 7k an hour and whatever we left in the hour we had as a break and we went every hour on the hour and we got a member of the mnd community to ring a bell one minute before i start to let us know exactly why we're there we had their story it fueled us to go but seven hours to go it's 49 kilometers left to run my legs have stopped working so best way i can describe it i am the captain of a plane and i've got all these different lights and buttons around me like I'm in a cockpit.

40:23So I'm tired, so I put the autopilot on and then I notice the fuel gauge is going down and it's, right, okay, turn that system off, that system off, that system. And all the time while I'm trying to run, I've started to turn systems off. So I'm not speaking at this stage. I'm not really communicating. People are getting a thumbs up from me when everyone's saying, you all right? Do you want something to eat? And you're going, no, leave me, leave me. Stop taking food on, stop taking fluid on because you've just had enough and you're that tired. so we got to the point where I'm going seven hours to go we're going down in this plane my job now is to make sure we don't go down before we hit the runway and just try and stay on so when you're in when you're that tired and I knew this going in they said to me we had a brilliant guy who's a professor in sports science he said to me when you're tired and you're not at sleep things will seem 40 % worse so I kept reminding myself I'm not that bad I'm actually 40 % better than I think I am so trying to find ways of finding humour I love people making me laugh when they're in that dark zone like make me laugh do something daft or funny or tell a joke or whatever it is or start singing a crazy song and the challenge has been really special because they've been horrific and tough and took me to some serious places but actually there's some really really funny moments in there and I think that's the great thing about being in a team you're sharing those funny moments and then afterwards when you've got it done you're able to look each other in the eye and go how good with that so we often talk about the messy middle of change where people are stuck in that dark place and they're too far in to go back they're not far enough to see the light at the end of it and that's where morale declines people's things seem 40 % harder there's lots of our listeners that going through that in whatever shape our form in their lives tell us some of the tips and techniques that you've learned that help us all keep putting one foot in front of the other well this is where my experience in rugby probably helped in 2015 losing five challenge cup finals getting dropped for one the obvious thing and the thing we all want to do is hide away pull the covers over our head and get in the feet up position but that doesn't help you it makes it worse So I always ask myself, what's the alternative?

42:45And even when it got tough during those running moments, what is the alternative? Well, the alternative is I could be at home in bed, but where would I rather be? I'd rather be out here running, trying to make a difference, trying to help my mate. And actually the reason I'm running is so that he believes that there's people who are willing to be with him shoulder to shoulder. So now having a why is obviously really powerful. When it's one of your mates who's going through what he's going through, it becomes even more powerful and I realised pretty early on that you probably got the best out of me when I backed into a corner I hate the fact that it's like that but it's probably true when you really stick me somewhere I don't want to be then I'll fight and I'll come out and you'll get the best of me and so for people out there who are going through some things that they don't on the face you would find it particularly difficult life's tough and nobody has it plain sailing I would say this as well because I remind myself of it all the time there's always someone worse off than you no matter how bad it gets there's someone worse than you Rob helps with that with the perspective I actually enjoy being in those tough difficult dark moments don't have to be in there long but as I'm shown in the 101 mile I was in there for 7 hours and it was it's a long time to be in there but again it's people doing a lot worse than I am and my job is to try and get from A to B in one piece to try and raise a load of money so that the specialists and surgeons and the best MND people across the UK can get their heads together and try and find a cure and I think we've got something like that that is really powerful then it's really easy to do it but I'd say to people out there find out why you're doing it what is the one thing that'll prevent you stopping or turning around.

44:35And when you find that, you can go. And what is it that it does for you? What is the one thing that this does for you? It replaces playing rugby. The fulfilment I got, the satisfaction. You play a game of rugby, whether you win or lose, whether you perform well or you don't. I always go up the following morning and felt like that was the reason I were here and I was doing my bit. You suddenly stop playing and that's gone. and this has absolutely helped me to fill that void. Now I'm really passionate, it comes across about Rob and the M &D community. So I know what my next however many years I'm on this planet for, what I'll be doing and where I can help.

45:14I know this won't stop like my playing career because I know... Because Jeff, his dad has said, you've done enough, you can stop now. How do you feel when you hear him say that? Well, I think he knows that I won't. I think he knows. What might happen is, and I'm fully aware, I'm going to get old like everyone else and things don't work as well as they should. And I mean, these aren't in great shape anyway, but at some point I won't be able to run, at which point it won't change what I try to do with the rest of my life. I want to help. So I'll just do it in a different way. Now, whether that's on a bike, on a road machine, swimming, whether it's nothing to do with physical activity or whether it's being at dinners, doing talks, fundraising in a different way, I'm all in now.

45:58I love it. and I love that you've re we talk often about reframing I love the fact you've reframed this so that of course it's brilliant for Rob of course it's brilliant for the MND community it's helping so many people but the truth is this is brilliant for you as well yeah absolutely and and at times I feel well I feel selfish at times and I wanted people to understand that's why it's in the book like um the great thing about doing the book for me I didn't want to do one never wanted to do one like i didn't want another sporting autobiography out there that was telling stories about a dressing room and and i wanted something that were more than that and until i found that i were never going to do one and i probably wouldn't have done one even now if it hadn't been for rob saying 18 months ago have you got to do a book and as you can probably see this guy has had a huge influence on the last three and a half years for me but he's had a massive influence across the uk and i'll give you another example we set a marathon up in rob's name which we ran a couple of weeks ago 12 and a half thousand people signed up which makes it the third biggest marathon in the uk out of those 12 and a half thousand people 55 percent were debut marathon runners wow that number is huge so you're talking over six thousand six and half thousand people have suddenly said i'm going to do this and rob has inspired them to do them it's huge it's huge and what is it you think about rob's story that resonates so powerfully with so many people first of all he's he's he's five foot four and a quarter and he's everyone's little brother how tough he was on the field against these giants three kids under 10 when who's diagnosed and three beautiful kids um lindsey how courageous she's superwoman to care for rob bring three kids up do a full-time job run a marathon train for a marathon raise 100 grand this family is i think they've shown us because they've been so public as well they've shown us what living is sometimes we lose track of what's important and how we met the most out of the time we get here we don't get a long time so what what do we how do we use it i think they've shown us all what living is and how to make the most of your time and i'd also say i think they've shown us all what love is amazing thank you so much for that conversation thank you very much um we always finish as you know with our uh quick fire questions and people at home can listen to the previous time we chatted and again see whether things have changed for you so with everything you've been through done seen experienced what are your three non-negotiables always try and do the right thing so always have the intent to we all get stuff wrong but always try and have the intent be honest and treat people how you like to be treated so for me that i'd be with kindness with respect with some love as well what's your biggest strength and your greatest weakness biggest strength probably my honesty biggest weakness probably my honesty I'm not brutally honest but perhaps wear my heart on my sleeve yep so and that means at times especially when I talk about Rob like I can get emotional because if you ask me to talk about some other moments his diagnosis getting a text message those other bits there's some moments that I know are going to set me off so erm but why is it a weakness as well?

49:39because erm in many ways that's what society is blokes aren't allowed to get upset are they? rugby players or guys who used to play this match or sport aren't supposed to get upset and show emotion I don't have a problem with that but I just don't want to be look like I'm a guy who's got tears in his eyes all the time when he's talking about something he's passionate about and actually there's so much good come out of this too. So how do some of those old rugby teammates deal with it? Like when they see you choked up, when they see you being at the forefront, you know, at the marathon, the footage of you carrying Rob over, what's their reaction to it?

50:19They fully understand it. When Rob got the Helen Rolison Award at Spotty at Christmas, brilliant night, I knew I'd have to speak. I was so nervous because I wanted people to be proud of Rob and be really respectful toward Rob. And they always have been, by the way. But I wanted to do him justice and all. And I choked up a couple of times while I was trying to speak that night and a couple of the older guys, Keith Sini and Barry Mack, were there in the audience and had been on stage and they both spoke to me after and said, I don't know how you managed to show that emotion and then are able to pull it back, which I took as a compliment, by the way.

51:02But at the time, it's really difficult when you're chalked and trying to make some sense of it. They could have quite easily took the mickey out of me and said, what are you doing? Crying on TV again? Well, that's what I mean. That's in my experience of those two lads that that would be their default reaction to laugh and take the mickey out of you doing it. So it's an interesting response. Yeah, I think with age and experience, They feel the same about Rob as I do. And I know that, again, those two guys and a number of others, you throw that Batman sign up and we do it for each other. What advice would you give a teenage Kevin just starting out?

51:42This would be very similar to what I said last time, I'm pretty sure, because I still try and tell myself to do this, but enjoy the successes more. Enjoy the good times for a little bit longer. But make sure you do now as well, though. Yeah. Yeah. still not great I'd love to be better at enjoying the moment and for whatever reason I'm very quickly move on to what's next very quickly shift on struggle with people being really kind towards me and praising me I really struggle with it I just like just a bit like look this is who I am just let me get on so but certainly celebrating success would have would have what I tell myself if you could go back to one moment of your life, what would it be and why?

52:30Probably. Now, this is where I'm too honest. Probably World Cup semi-final 2013. Wembley. Yeah, Wembley. The decision to come out the line at the end, I would probably adjust that. But it is what it is. We've talked about tough moments before. Like that hurt for us. It still hurts now. but we were so close to making that World Cup final yeah it's a moment that sits with me and I actually think I probably played my best game for England that day however because you get beat because you concede a try with 20 seconds to go it doesn't matter Final question your last message really is people listening to this podcast for living their own high performance life yeah I think I'd try and say that life's tough like it can be a struggle and there's some really tough moments but it can be made far easier and better and more fulfilling if you really cherish your friends and look after them we're not here for a long time so but I do know that through those connections and interactions life's so much better love that thank you so much for your time thank you very much

53:54Damien. Jake. I mean, obviously a moving interview with an incredible guy who's done something really unique and special. I really, really like the fact that he actually talks about the positive reaction that he gets himself when he spends time with people who are suffering from motor neurone disease. And I think that he's totally right that all too often we shut away people in our lives who are ill or they scare us because they make us realize our own mortality or perhaps they're not as mobile as they used to be and we all want to go and kick a ball around or whatever. And so slowly they get sort of left and lost.

54:31And I think that remembering how hard it is for them when that happens is the first thing. But the second thing is remembering the power for you spending time with people who are in that kind of place. We need to stop being a fear and start being a tool for inspiration, which is what Kevin has done. I think you're right, Jake. I think there's no such thing as a selfless act. And I think Kevin articulated it really powerfully that he gets some real power and help and support from being around that. That means that while he's offering help and a platform and a voice to sufferers with MND and their family, he's getting a lot from it as well.

55:08And I mean, what's your favorite phrase that you say that you're going to get a tattoo done? Memento mori, remember you're dying. That's exactly what Kevin's told us around, being around people that have been given a life sentence and using that as a reminder that we're all living a life sentence maybe with just different different length of time left on it is let's make the most of it in the short time that we are all here and you asked the question about you know why have people resonated with the rob burrow story i think there's also a question here why have people cottoned on to the work that kevin's doing and i think it's because he is like i know you've just said there's no such thing as a selfless act but the message is so selfless from him it's not about him it's never about him it's entirely about rob and the people who are suffering and he is so self-deprecating and he's almost like you can see when we chat to me he's almost embarrassed to talk to us about the stuff that he's done and i think that is such an appealing quality yeah i think that's kevin to a t like having worked with him for a long time that's the self-deprecating the humility the selflessness really is at the heart of everything that he's done and he was like that even when he was a captain as much as what he's doing it now inspiring um people in terms of the incredible acts he's doing for mnd but i think the big thing i'd like people to take away around what kevin says is when you think of so many of our other guest the obvious one is someone like danny gray who sets up jack that just ask a question it's often the intervention of a friend at the moment that you need it somebody that just comes and has your back when times are tough that i think we all cry out for we all want somebody like that in our life and kev very visibly does that for rob in his darkest hour and i think the question that all of us maybe could go away and answer having listened to that is how can we all be a better friend to somebody else in our life that maybe is having a tough old time.

57:08Thanks, mate. Thank you, mate. Well, there we go. That's pretty much it for today's episode. I really hope you enjoyed everything you heard over the past hour or so. When we were talking to Kevin, there was a couple of mentions of Rob Burrow's wife, Lindsay. She's also been on the High Performance podcast. You can hear her conversation with Damien if you search for her name or episode 155. And just before that actually if you're really heavily into your rugby well there's loads of guests but episode 116 was with Steve Borthwick who's the current England rugby union coach look I can't thank Kevin enough for coming on this podcast and speaking in the way that he did what he's done is incredible and I really hope that for you it acts as a reminder that you may only be one person but you can make a difference a huge difference to someone's life a huge difference to the way that we see the world and the way that we should act.

58:01Don't forget, you can also watch this episode on YouTube. Just search for the High Performance Podcast. Join the millions of people who watch our episodes on there as well. But thank you so much for listening. We really appreciate the fact that you come to us every single week and you continue to share and spread the learnings you're taking from high performance. Remember, there is no secret. It is all there for you. So chase world-class basics don't get high on your own supply remain humble curious and empathetic and we'll see you soon