E197 - Edwin Van Der Sar: "It’s f***ing hard" - his final interview as Ajax CEO

0:01Hi there, I'm Jay Comfrey and this is the award winning high performance podcast. Look, we are not here to tell you how to think or act. We simply reveal the truth behind the lives of some of the most fascinating people on the planet so they can be your guide. Prepare to be inspired, but also challenged. Don't expect to agree with everything you hear, but do hold your beliefs lightly. Come to this conversation open to growth and change, and let's just explore together. Once more, it's time for myself and Professor Damien Hughes to unlock the minds of another guest. Today, this awaits you. Football or sports is also a game of luck, of course.

0:44Inside post, outside post, on the bar, penalty given or yes or no, red card, yes or no. These little things can be the fate of a manager, the fate of a player or the fate of a director if there's success or is there failure. And at the other end of the spectrum is Cristiano Ronaldo, who, like you, has gone on to have a career of true longevity. What are your memories of sharing a dressing room and a club with him? The dressing room that he shared with me, I mean, of course, it's always been about him. And this determination and the way that he conducted himself. And I think a lot of people have, let's say, maybe got a different opinion about him.

1:26But I found him really in the dressing room funny. The way that he took another step for Man United, it's been amazing. It's shit. Things are happening. you need to fire someone things are not going well there's a there's a crisis uh there's something happening on european level it's something with with with a new media deal and certain points it's it's a not a drag it's fucking hard oh what a pleasure it was to um to speak to this person just before we uh talk a bit further a quick reminder i would love you to hit subscribe uh hitting subscribe allows us to grow the podcast which allows us to impact as many people as possible.

2:06But let's talk about today's guest then. You heard there from Edwin van der Saar. Look, we've had many football managers on the podcast. The Newcastle boss, Eddie Howe. The England boss, Gareth Southgate. We've had players like Jordan Henderson at Liverpool, Eric Dyer. We've had former players like Rio Ferdinand or Robin Van Persie. We've had the Brighton chief exec, Paul Barber. We've had the Brentford sporting director, Phil Giles. But today we speak to a man who went from the dressing room to the boardroom. A man who went from being a player to a CEO. Today we welcome Edwin van der Sar who won four Eredivisie titles, he won four Premier League crowns, he won the Champions League among many other things in his career.

2:46But what fascinated us is why he decided at the end of his playing days to go into the administration side of the game and what he's learned since then. And I'm just going to set the scene for you. So we recorded this in a hotel room overlooking the Johan Cruyff Arena in Amsterdam, the home of Ajax Football club. Edwin at the time was the chief exec of the football club. He walked into the room and I promise you he looked exhausted. I said to him, how are things? And the reply was a one word, swear word. So immediately it was clear to us that pressure was taking its toll on this guy. And we then spoke at length for well over an hour about the truth of what life's like at the top of a football club.

3:27We talk about the scrutiny. We talk about the criticism. We talk about the questions. We talk about the pain. We talk about the impact on his family. Of course, we also talk about his playing days, you know, what he learned at Manchester United, what it was like in that great Ajax team, some of the challenges he faced as a Holland international, the great players he's played with. But at the end of the conversation, one of the final answers he gave us was probably a really clear indication of what was to come. Because a couple of days after we pressed stop on the recording and headed home, it was announced that Edwin had decided to quit as the CEO of Ajax.

4:03So this now lives as the final interview that he gave as the CEO. And I think that we will now listen to it with fresh eyes, with an even deeper understanding of the challenges that he was under. I just want at this point to say huge thanks to him and to Ajax because it was obviously a challenging time for the football club and for Edwin himself. So for him to still come out and speak to us and give us so much of his time, we are very, very grateful for that. So here we go then. The final interview with Edwin van der Sar as the CEO of Ajax Football Club here on the High Performance Podcast.

4:47Well, Edwin, thank you very much for joining us on High Performance. You're welcome. What is your definition of high performance? I think for the biggest part of my life, I've been in a high-performance environment. First, try to make it as a player. Then you take your first step on the pitch with a full stadium. Then at 40, you retire. And then whatever, you step into a new environment, trying to be a director or become a director and dealing with pressure all the time. So I'm used to it. It's part of your body. It's part of your everyday business. you don't know anything else. So you talk about dealing with pressure.

5:27Let's just set the scene for people listening to this. We're talking just 100 meters or so away from the famous Johan Cruyff Stadium here in Holland. And it has been a hard season. Absolutely. There's no doubt about that. How much have you learned this season about yourself and about the world in which you operate? Yeah, of course. At the moment you have success and things are going well. It's easy. Everybody can do it. At the moment it's hard, the criticism, decisions you've made, maybe not the right ones are not paying off yet. Questions are being asked. Stuff is looking away if you come in.

6:03Or TV shows or podcasts are dedicated to the problems or the sport of crisis. And of course, friends of yourself, your parents. Are you still okay with it? What's happening? So yeah, you're dealing with it. And that's something what you learned as a player. you're very much on the pitch you're very visible 11 guys playing against another 11 guys you save a free kick or a penalty or you drop one and because of that you lose so it's been a learning curve and especially when you have so much success and then in a year that's not happening okay what went wrong in the summer what are the consequences what should you take out of it and that's something that's not written in books That's not even talked about in podcasts or management lessons.

6:55That's something you need to experience and that's life also. So can we talk then about the things that went on and the things you learned from it? Because there are lots of media outlets and probably lots of podcasts as well that just talk about the failure, right? We have a very different mindset to that. What we believe is that failure is the price of ambition, right? if you're going to try and do great things, there are going to be seasons like this. So let's rewind the clock. You talk about mistakes last summer, for example, or obviously the departure of Eric and then the new manager who came in.

7:29Would you go through some of those moments and share with us what you've learned? I think what I see is, I think a very famous club, great tradition, DNA, iconic jersey, fantastic names that have played here over the years, a stepping stone for a lot of players. The league where we are playing in Holland, not the biggest league in the world. Of course, the top five leagues is where eventually everybody wants to end up. Every year you need to refresh your team. Coaches are stepping up. Players want to make a step. And I think last year we had about 13 players leaving and seven of them were like more or less starting 11, including the coach.

8:11Five months before that, the technical director, even for a club like Ajax that is used to making sure that there's sort of like a conveyor belt of new talent coming through the scouting is functioning that was just too much to get a hold of in the summer and to anticipate and make sure that the success that we had over the last four or five years that it was going in the same direction. So you talk about the DNA of a successful team like Ajax Amsterdam. What is that? How would you define it? and then more importantly, how do you maintain it? To maintain it, it's something where the managers of the coaches, they work in the academy, the scouts who find the players, and need to deal with.

8:55And I think we had over, let's say, from the 70s, with the generation of Johan Cruyff, Piet Keijzer, winning three Champions Leagues. In the 80s, with Van Basten, with Rijkaard. In the 90s, the team with Sador, with David, with the Boers. I was part of that also. There's Vessi Snyder, there's Nigel de Jongs. So every era, there are players coming through. And that's something that stands us out, I think, from whatever, from a lot of clubs. We like to be that club that there's a DNA. Also that the players who are given the chance here also hopefully come back at a certain point and give something back to the club.

9:37And not only regarding transfer fee, going to one club to another one, because if you want to perform on the European stage, money is a big difference. And of course, not only spending a lot of money, that's not always the solution. Look at whatever, some clubs in England this year, you had already a nice level. You spent whatever, five, 600 million. Doesn't mean that you become champion or even qualify for Champions League. So what you do with it, that's also very important. And quick decisions or managerial decisions, yeah, those are testing times for yourself as a CEO or as a director. to make the right call and making sure that the whole club believes in that line that has been set up to get to the success or to revive the success formula that you had before.

10:24So let's talk then about some of these sort of specific moments and how you can retain the culture whilst allowing Ajax to do what it does, which is build amazing talents. I understand as a player, it's great. You know, you do well here. You know you're going to get an opportunity, right? But for you now in a senior leadership role, it's very hard when you lose your manager. So would you talk us through the process of what happened with Eric Ten Hag and how you deal with that? Do you just sort of accept when Man United come calling, you have to allow people to go? Do you try and fight to keep Eric when he showed an interest in Manchester United?

11:00How does it work from your perspective? I think it works similar to all, even with players. Of course, every player wants to have a plan. You talk about ambition. Of course, you need to win the league here, play Champions League football, give yourself a podium, or we give you a podium. But yeah, you have to use it. You have to put all your talents and qualities on that stage. After two, three, hopefully four years, you take that next step. And that's same with the manager. I think with Eric, when Eric came, Mark Overmars knew him already from the past club, Goat Eagles. He'd been at second team at Bayern Munich.

11:33He did really well with Utrecht. So yeah, he came here maybe not as an AX DNA type of manager, but in the first year already with his talents and his work rate and his desire to every time to put the bar higher establish himself as a great manager and of course with the players that were around him. You talk with the manager you see what his plans are or he looks at the players what can I get out of the players what is the ambition of the club So that way you make also a plan for the manager. And of course, when you perform and when you do something really well, of course you attract interest.

12:18And we know that and we are proud of it, that people are taking a next step to a bigger club, bigger league. And hopefully we can use that also in our advantage to attract other talents that say, hey, through Ajax, you can get there and there and there instead of straight away at 18 or straight away to your first job as a manager in the Premier League. You're somebody that's had the unique perspective of being in the dressing room with great coaches, whether it was from Van Gaal early on in your career to Sir Alex Ferguson at the end of your career. So you've got the perspective of being able to see what makes a great coach, what works, and now you're in the position of being part of the deciding committee who's going to recruit a coach.

13:00so what are the characteristics that you've seen from those different roles that you've held that you think does distinguish whether a coach is going to be successful or not difficult question because you don't know who's going to be successful it's it's it's a process you need so many things to to click to to make sure that that the project that you start the players that you are that you sign the players that come through from the from the academy that they're going to gel, that the way the manager wants the team to play, that there's belief. And of course, football or sports are also a game of luck, of course, inside post, outside post, on the bar, penalty given or yes or no, red card, yes or no.

13:44These little things can be the fate of a manager, the fate of a player or the fate of a director if there's success or is there failure. And of course, if you limited those chances, if you really work hard, if you can make sure that believe in the group, how much talent, does talent get a chance? Does younger players who are performing on the training better than older players? Are they getting a chance or will a manager stick with experience with players who did it in the past? And that's what I, what you've seen also at Ferguson, for example. But working at bigger clubs, it could be the end station.

14:23Not a lot of players at United went to, let's say bigger clubs maybe only Ronaldo in 2009 going from May United to Real Madrid asked also a question to Giggs or Scolci or Gary I said yeah I never fancied going abroad like whatever there must be big clubs also into Milan or Barcelona or Madrid or Bayern Munich Edwin it's like yeah we were born here like it's my family lives here I play for the biggest club in the world the money is good so why would I go abroad and learn a different language or a different playing style because I'm playing for the biggest club in the world. That's great, of course, when you have that, those five, six guys who played their whole life for a club at the Cicciato Boyle Club.

15:08And Ajax is different because, of course, players, even Matthijs Ligt came here at eight, nine years old and went to the whole academy at 16 and a half, made his debut at 17, he captained the club in the Europa League final. But still, for him, there are other ambitions. Can the two of us just pick away then, actually, at this conversation about what it does for you personally, because you spent your entire footballing career being in control, in control of your training, in control of your reaction on the pitch, to a certain extent. Now, you talk about luck and chance and a refereeing decision and not knowing really, how can you know if a manager or a signing is ever going to be successful?

15:49So how do you deal with the uncertainty that comes with being the chief exec of one of the most talked about clubs in the world? Yeah, in general, of course, it's part. And somebody says, yeah, the harder you work, the more luck you're getting. Of course, making long hours. Life as a player, it's easy. Of course, you need to perform on Saturday at two o 'clock. But in general, yeah, you train in the morning. Everybody is there to help you, to make sure that you have the right nutrition, that you train a certain level, that you get a massage. But work as a director or a manager, it's so much more demanding.

16:27It's 60, 70 hours. It's all the time being on instead of being able to take a rest or focus or think. So you have to really create time also for yourself to know what is going on, to know if the decisions or the decision you want to make that is going to benefit the team or the process that you stepped into. so let's talk um in more detail about this first of all you talk about you need time for yourself to see the big picture you know you are the most senior leader at this football club we have lots of business people that listen to this podcast who maybe struggle with that element how how do you find the space the headspace to to be able to make decisions and and have a bit of separation yeah you feel yourself now also that um if you're running too fast you're losing time to reflect, to make the, not the right decisions, but decisions quick enough.

17:26But the moment that things are going well, it's much easier to breathe, to find the time in the moment things are going in a way that you don't expect or you have to recover certain things. When I started in 2012, I was a marketing director. The idea was always for Johan Cruyff to bring explorers into the board of directors. He always said like, yeah, you guys, You didn't do university like the normal people or the clever people do, but you guys did the university of life, being exposed in the football stadium, being a young player, making sure that you got a chance in the first team, dealing with losing finals, with making mistakes, or 80 ,000 people that cheering you on or newspaper headlines that are praising you or killing you.

18:12Even from outside pressure, you can shut it off. And that's one of my qualities, I think, making sure that the thing where I work on or where we work on as a club that you don't let yourself influence by their people who are shouting making headlines or talking rubbish because they don't know what is the real deal what's going on into an organisation. I mean that's typically far sighted of Cruyff from what you read about him and it's a conversation that many people have about going from the dressing room to the boardroom. What would you say are the characteristics that are consistent that you learn in that university of life, as Kroif described it, that you're still using today?

18:55The way that when a manager comes in or even during the game in the first half, whatever, with quick words or quick shouts, you can adjust something. As a CEO, it takes much longer to have an effect on how the organization is running. What I learned also from, let's say, from Alex Ferguson, he said, yeah, I've been always very loyal to the people that brought me success. But at a certain point, I have to make sure that success continuously. And it's not always the case with, yeah, if you hold on to older players that gave you success, but you have to make sure that there will continuously be successful players who need to develop or maybe come to the end of the road on a respectful way.

19:42but sometimes it's not easy to be respectful in this world because it's a hard world and I experienced it as a player. You experience it as an executive and in that way it's very comparable. So Ferguson famously used to, he described it in his own terms that he would think in four-year cycles for his team and the stability of his role allowed him to have that maybe longer perspective. how far ahead do you think as a chief exec? Of course you make plans for whatever, four or five years, long-term plans, short-term. A coach needs to win the next game or win the league. But of course as directors you look a little bit further than only that.

20:31But all falls with winning on Sunday, winning the league, winning games, giving supporters a feeling of pride. And of course, you can say, yeah, we have plans for two, three, four years. But for a supporter, it's the game on Sunday. It's winning a cup, winning a trophy. Everything needs to be focused on winning on Sunday. Or that's, of course, you have a manager for doing that and the coaches need to do that and the players need to do that. And sometimes you maybe forget a little bit when you have success that success is all created on the pitch. it's all about those 11 guys or 16 or 20 guys delivering their performance on a match day.

21:10This was one of the rare seasons where you weren't winning enough matches and you had to part company with the manager. Would you mind sharing with us how you get to a point where you make a decision that you need to change the manager and just how you deal with that really? You know, you've already said it, people in football often say we get such criticism because people don't know the full picture. I think sometimes it's so helpful to really lay bare, not everything because some things have to remain private quite rightly, but enough so people can understand that, you know, sitting down and telling Schroeder you're fired is hard for you as well as for him, isn't it, I imagine?

21:51Yeah, of course. And in certain ways it feels also not fair. What I explained just earlier on about, I think, the 12 players that left, coach that left and even when Alfred came we still had Martinez was still there, Anthony was still there so United came at a little bit late stage for both players maybe not expecting maybe we should have prepared a little bit better but even for Anthony, this is a second year did not even play all the matches so in that way you're starting with a team that has been refurbished redesigned new technical staff but what are the warning signs that you can see something starting to go wrong data is one part of the game nowadays, expected goals or that kind of stuff but in general the eye is sometimes not wrong from the truth and in that way it's you sometimes see or hope to expect more from a player or from a game or from a technical decision or from the signing that the club made.

23:01And in that way, the results in certain points started to deteriorate. And then the pressure will mount on a coach and also on the board or on the players to make a decision on a position that we just filled in and hoped to have a long-standing relationship. That's why you build for. And that feels also awful You have to release people from functions that put a lot of heart and hard work and effort and determination in to have a conversation that is over. How hard is it personally on a season like this? Tough, absolutely. Yeah, it's really tough. But hey, that's the name of the game. it's performances that makes or break people that's for a player, that's for a coach that's for a CEO and that's the way we're living and I'm not used to anything else to be fair What's the toughest thing?

24:12The toughest thing is the doubts that people have in your ability okay yeah former goalkeeper or former player but yeah I've retired 12 years ago I'm doing this 11 years already, so I'm not a novice. I think the organization is strong, has been stronger in the past. But yeah, the same way, they need to develop all the time. And of course, also for your own qualities, you have to every time think, are your own qualities still enough for the organization where you work in? How much effort did you put into it? How much effort are you still willing to put into it? and if the connection is still there with your staff, with the people in the office, with the players.

24:59And that's, I think, a constant situation that you want to feel for yourself also. And of course, I think the way media or people are thinking or social media is reacting on defeats or bad signings or good stuff or shirt introductions or commercial parties where you make an agreement with. Everybody likes to think of everything something. And sometimes people are talking loud on TV or putting anomalous stuff on the internet. And that's most of the time for your, let's say, surroundings. It's not nice, but for yourself, you know what it is. You know the football world and you need to perform and you're as good as your last match that you played and as good as your last signing or the decision that you made as a director.

25:53I think people often forget that you've got kids that can read that stuff. You've got parents and like, no matter how old you become, you're always your mom and dad's little boy or your partner, you know, who's really defensive and protective of you. I think people often forget the cost on those people in your life, don't they? Yeah, okay, but we know that. You sit behind your computer or a smartphone and you put something in and it's gone for you, but it's out in the world. I think it's more about what happens 20 years when you're talking in the pub with your mates and you have discussions and that's coming now on the internet or on social media or on shows like whatever, not like this.

26:34I think your quality of podcast is higher than other ones but you can drag attention for your opinions, crazy opinions or very direct ones that attract audience, that attract viewers that attract commercial parties that connect with a program and that's that's what the world may uh ticks also at the moment you're talking about having like the ability to adapt your communication style to the different audiences and i was intrigued reading a story um from your early days as a player when van haal was a coach and i read that he used a um company to come in and do psychometric testing with the players so he could understand how players best received information and how he could be more flexible and adapt the way that he delivered his message so it was understood.

27:25You're smiling in terms of, do you remember that period? And what have you taken from it that you could still use and apply in your role today? Yeah, I think you learn from everyone. I think with Van Gaal and he gave me the opportunity, he discovered me, he found me at my local club. So he scouted myself. So he signed me for Ajax, gave me the chance in the first team by replacing Stanley Menzo. But he was, let's say, one of a kind, like the way the eye for detail, the communication he had with players, the way on the technical side, he wanted to improve the players. That's almost second to none, to be fair, what he did with our crop of players that was in the mid-90s.

28:15and also the next step that he had at Barcelona and Bayern Munich and let's say May United also. So that almost surprised me. Of course, he had success in the leagues, the titles that he won by the previous club. But I would have expected with his qualities and everything and to also have to do that once again also in the Champions League. And in that way, what you learned, he always tried to find what's behind the player because it's not only the player that makes a difference also the human being what's behind the player what's the situation at home is he happy with his wife is his wife pregnant did he move is he living too far away from Amsterdam so if all the things that could matter that the performance of the player would harm he would check that out and making sure that he could help as good as possible on that part.

29:12That's a really good, strong culture. Let's talk about maybe a challenging culture when you were with the Dutch squad in 1996 and there was question marks about cliques and groups and separation. I'd love to know what you learned in that period because, you know, as we've spoken about a lot in the last little while, the tough times are often the educational times. Yeah, I think we're coming to that tournament as winning the Champions League 95, losing the final with I think a lot of Ajax players, some players already playing for big clubs. So I think we could have been one of the favorites. I think so the team was developing.

29:48I think the success of that, the lack of success or tensions didn't really feel it. And of course, I've been someone that's never been attached to one group. I always liked it to be floating around because I was always the guy with the different jersey or I was always the guy with two other guys who are doing different drills than the 18 outside players who do whatever passing drills or five against fours or that kind of stuff. So I always for myself, I never felt really only connected to one side or so I tried to even move between tables. I never really felt it. More afterwards, things were explained or I think the media made a lot of things of it, but it was more like our own fault.

30:36The players, they mentioned things. But in that way, you were a player. You're not that far ahead. You're just thinking about your own performance and, of course, winning a championship, like the Euro 96, would have been massive. But afterwards, yeah, there was a holiday. You go on holiday, and after two and a half weeks, you need to report to your club, and you go on. That's something that's been always my case. I close it, and let's make the success of the next step. I'm interested in that role that you said of floating between groups, because I've worked in dressing rooms myself, where you can see these cliques or divisions starting to emerge.

31:12And when you speak to players, they go… But it's not strange because certain people like a type of music. They like to dress in a certain way. So it's not strange that people are gelling together better. Their love of cars or younger guys like to go out a little bit more. You have some experienced guys who just whatever, if you're married. or so it's not strange that that are groups or sure uh tables together you talk easier you have the same sense of humor uh you have the same background and of course it's it's it's it's it's it's it's a bit a national team it's different of course and then you all come together and you share experiences in but in the dressing room we have four brazilians two uh two two mexicans uh three italians uh yeah it's it's logic and a couple of homegrown players and a couple of signings that that are teams together or groups together sitting at a table.

32:07You like a certain kind of food. You go to the same restaurants. It's the work of the coach to make sure that everybody sticks together. And when you're on the pitch, the work rate is there. The intensity is there. The quality is there. And making sure that everybody's determined to win that game on a Saturday.

32:32Let's talk about Manchester United then. This came relatively late in your career. Relatively late. 35. You were getting ready to retire on a beach probably somewhere. Absolutely, almost, yeah. What was said to convince you to join that football club or was there no convincing needed? Not a lot. No, I had a chance when I left Ajax in 1999. I first had a meeting in Liverpool. They didn't sign for them. Then Juventus came. I went with my agent over to Turin. We had a good meeting in one of the golf courses in one of clubhouses. And I think we're 85, 90 % convinced to join Juventus. I think then we got a call from Palmei United.

33:19Would you want to come over? I said, yeah, I want to come over. Even that time, I think, was still before the Champions League final. I wanted to take a different approach. So I signed for Juventus, to be fair. and so that time there was an opportunity already to sign for United so but yeah after all after two years Juventus four years at Fulham and at 34 yeah getting the opportunity to play again for one of the biggest clubs in the world yeah that was an amazing amazing experience and I think I think Ruud van Nistelrooy was a big part of it I think he spoke also with Ferguson at the end of that season what's going to be what's going to happen what are the what are the chances what players do on the side.

34:01Yeah, maybe you have to get some experience at the back and we have two young central halves we need. No, yeah, why don't you think about van der Sar? Yeah, but he's 34 and he's at Fulham and yeah, okay, but like the level that he has and the national team and he has a clause in his contract, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I think, yeah, before he knew it, yeah, the voicemail message from Ferguson at my, when I came back at training. What was on the message? Yeah, the message was, hello, Edwin, Alex Ferguson, blah, you want to hear this message again press 3 okay Alex Ferguson here and I would really like to want to sign you at Maynard and we have a I couldn't understand it like whatever what I'm hearing here so you want to hear this message again press 3 so I had to whatever listen 3 or 4 times something to the message before it started okay this could be interesting and I think we had one meeting one conversation by phone and nowadays it takes ages to get players signed and to get to get agreements and I think with my agent and then David Gill came over to Scheveningen here in one of the cities near the beach and I think with two, three hours we're done and I signed a two-year contract.

35:13So you played for Ajax, you played for Juventus, you played for Fulham and then you go to Manchester United. When we spoke to Robin Van Persie about this, we asked him what was the difference between his experience at say Arsenal and Manchester United and he summed it up and said, at Arsenal, people like to win. At Manchester United, you had to win. What would you see was the difference between those other clubs and Manchester United? I think it's a little bit different for me because my initial period, I won a lot of things at Ajax. I think we're a very demanding manager, great culture at the club, young players that wanted to improve, wanted to get better, hungry.

35:57Frank Rijka, that's one of the leaders, He won everything, was like an icon for us and he came back to help us achieve what we wanted to achieve. Then two years Juventus, four years at Fulham, not a great stage of my career. So the first day I came at United, I felt like a warm bath. This is the level I wanted. This is the pressure that I needed. This is the way that football needs to be played. This is how determined you, how hard you work and the quality of the players around you. And of course, the foundation were there already. So in that way, yeah, from start to finish, it was an amazing six years.

36:37And so many people try and find the answer to why that club and that team did so well in that period. What do you put it down to? Quality of players. Of course, a fantastic manager. But I think, you know, it's not that Ferguson was taking the sessions or something. I think he had a great field coach and assistant coach. Even when the meetings were there, of course he always started with two or two remarks about the history, about the past, or remember this game. So in that way, it's the whole aura of himself, the things that he won already of course, the way he developed the club, that he almost owned the club with two guys, with David Gill and with himself.

37:24with himself. The backbone of the team with players who are homegrown. Giggs, Neville, Scholes. Scholes was, Paul was of course a fantastic player, but he was not really into the conversation. Paul just wanted to play football, just wanted to kick a ball as hard as possible into the goal. He was good at that. He was really good at that for example, but media duties after a Champions League match, he went to the fire exit or whatever and nowadays you see him talking on full of opinions everything so that's funny how people develop but just the sheer desire to win the sheer desire to protect the image that United have and win that Champions League again to be a part of that era that they had in the 60s that they had in the 90s and to have that in 2008 2009 that six years that I were able to play for United the success that you had with that group of players and also of course you need to refresh it and and over of course even there we had some bad signings and signings that didn't work out but but the quality was was there and uh that was it was an amazing amazing uh amazing period of my my career to end at such a high note i mean talk about the signings that didn't work out is interesting again we we were lucky enough to sit down with rio ferdinand and he spoke about some of the signings that he felt in hindsight the dressing room treated quite harshly rather than put an arm around the shoulder and try to help them.

38:57So the example he cited was the Brazilian Anderson where he said he felt that he struggled with his diet and his lifestyle and the dressing room mocked him rather than tried to guide him in a more helpful way. What was your experience of that dressing room when you talk about the will to win? Of course, quality, recognised quality when you're on the pitch. if you play a ball hard to a player and he receives it straight away on the right foot or if you pass it, having fun or joking, that's also part of the culture in a football club. And that's there. But I can understand a little bit what he said.

39:36But I think at a certain point, two, three times you say something to a player, and after the third time or the fourth time, he's still not reacting or showing different behavior. Then you almost need to drop it because you have to think about your own performances is making sure that whatever the area where you're responsible for, that that's working. Every young player, of course, you need to help, you give them advice, but you need to be open also to take the advice. And if it's not happening, yeah, then you have to take along and find someone else who you can help and hopefully bring into the team to get the performances up.

40:10And at the other end of the spectrum is Cristiano Ronaldo, who, like you, has gone on to have a career of true longevity. what are your memories of sharing a dressing room and a club with him? The dressing room that he shared with me, you mean? Exactly, the dressing room that he was lucky enough, honoured to share with you, yeah. No, I think that's, I remember one of the conversations with him in the gym, really the smaller, the old gym and everything and he was working out with, I think, an elastic band with his ankle and everything and he started talking and, yeah, now I really want to become the best player in the world.

40:41So yeah, so Ronnie said, a lot of people say that, no, no, no, I really want it. That's like, okay, what are you going to do about it? everything. I think his work ethic, the way he developed himself, the way he made sure that his body was specialist around him, the way he trained. One of the funniest stories I find always, I've told a lot of people already, often after training, I told him I wanted to take some of my free kicks. I said, Ronnie, take the second or third goalkeeper. I'm 37th. Come on, let's take one of the other guys. I'm tired. No, no, no, no. Come on. I want to score against the best.

41:18But Ronnie, you're not going to score, so that's not the point. No, no, come on, you're getting goal. And of course, then he had the free kick and the position and the stance and the ball that floated. But he always wanted to end up with a goal. So it's not even whatever, that I save one, okay, it's finished. But he always wanted to end up with a goal. But Ronnie, I want to also have a good feeling of going into the game. It's not only about you. And of course, it's always been about him and this determination and the way that he conducted himself. And I think a lot of people have, let's say, maybe got a different opinion about him, but I found him really in the dressing room funny.

41:57If we brought our children, like the Scots kids, or my son, he always played with them. I think the way that he took another step for Man United, it was not easy after leaving Man United and then going along for even higher accolades accolades and everything, the way that he played at Madrid and the goals that he scored and the impact that he had there. It's been amazing. I think there's actually really strong lessons for the players that you have here though, isn't there? Because there's that great phrase that talent will get you in the room. Nowadays it's a little bit more different. It's difficult to get that internal motivation to improve yourself all the time and we have a few.

42:37Why is that though? I don't know, maybe it's the people that are depending on you, the people that cherish you, that put you on a pedestal all the time. Hard work is not a strange word. It's something that's really important. Getting somewhere is easy, but making sure you take next steps, that you become better, that you become more valuable for the team, that you become more decisive for the team, that's hard nowadays, I think. It's a shame, isn't it? Because you've got players like a Paul Scholes or a Lionel Messi, where you look at the natural ability and feel for the game has gotten to a certain point.

43:14But you say about hard work, but for example, Lionel Messi, I think has tremendous qualities and talent and everything. Yes, I'm not saying he doesn't work hard. Let me just be straight about that. I suppose what I'm saying is Cristiano, unlike those two, has forced his success. Do you know what I mean? He's made it happen. And I think there's a great lesson to young footballers there. You can be here. I mean, I remember Jurgen Klopp saying he was a second division ability footballer. a Bundesliga mindset footballer so ended up in the first division. That's a really strong message for people that what is the phrase?

43:47Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. That's what Ferguson always said. Also something said when we were in the dressing room in Old Trafford, he said that in the other dressing room, you guys work hard, they're never going to beat you. But if they work harder, if they work the socks off and you think, okay, it's going to be Preston, it's going to be whatever, Bournemouth, they can win. So it all starts with working hard. Work hard, then your extra qualities will shine. So internal motivation then is something that you did have. Where did that come from? I think a normal upbringing.

44:19I came to ice when I was 19. I'd never been in one of the regional selections. Until 18 I was playing in my local village with my friends. My friends of course. It's a football team but not on a high level. I was doing a newspaper round. I was working in the flower bulb area. So I did a lot of stuff. until I was at school, until I was 19. Then suddenly I got signed for Ajax. So I think I had a normal upbringing. And also I find it important to the people that are around you, that are working also for the club or that you treat in a normal way. And where do you get your motivation from now? Because you can't do your job unless you work really hard.

45:05Yeah, that's true. give us an insight into what you know the hours you work you never you don't want to it's continuously it's hard it's whatever you have your phone you have your laptop you have the calls you have every you have your dinners you have your work you have your time you go to games you want to be you want to go to commercial partners it's events it's it's shit things are happening you need to fire someone things are not going well there's a crisis there's something happening on European level it's something with with a new media deal it's constant so it's at a certain point it's not a drag it's fucking hard and that's that's something that's where friends of yourself say Jesus Edwin why do you need it?

45:58you have your money you have an easier life and of course something something goes that goes through your mind but one way you have Yeah, you want to be success. Success is sometimes also addictive. You want to achieve things. And that's something that you carry with you all your life. And if you play different sports or with your friends, you always want to win. Do you know what? I also think, and I may be totally wrong here. I think there's an element here that you love proving people wrong. And when you talk about one of the hardest parts is people that say, former goalkeeper, former footballer.

46:32I think you get an energy from that. I think you love to show people that you can be a former footballer, you can be a former goalkeeper. You can also be a CEO of a business turning over hundreds of millions of euros a year. We're not fixed. We're not in a box. I think it's true. I think also because, let's say, I have not been the biggest talent. I've played a great career. I think I was really good at looking through what was happening. I don't think I had the greatest reaction. I don't think I was the most elegant goalkeeper. But in the way that I played, the way I could see through the game, making sure that the players were in the right position, making the saves when it mattered, that it brought you to a certain level.

47:16That's something you want to emulate or show that again. And of course, I don't think this job is something you're going to do all my life. And at a certain point, you want to have your rest. You want to have your quality of life. also at the moment that the phone is not ringing anymore, that the emails are not that important anymore. I think that's also something that you need to give also back to your family and for your own sake of mind, to show you the point that you know what life is also about. Brilliant. So we normally wrap up with a series of quickfire questions, Edwin. So the first one is, what are the three non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you have to buy into?

47:58No, I still answer my phone if somebody calls me at 11.30. It doesn't matter. Appointments are in my diabetes that I probably don't need. So I'm quite relaxed, to be fair. I should be hard in certain ways. What is your biggest strength? What is your greatest weakness? My strength is I think I'm collective. I'm not that quickly into a panic or I don't know what's happening. It was my quality on the pitch and I think hopefully it's still also my quality here as a director. Weakness, probably too nice. What advice would you give to a teenage Edwin just starting out? It's just fantastic to do something that's in the area where you've grown up, where you became a man.

48:51As a child, I was quite quiet. didn't want to be seen quite tall and sometimes when tall people they like to make themselves a little bit smaller but at a certain point you come onto in the limelight and you're there so it's just great to be something that a lot of people get enjoyment from, they have pleasure from it and of course you're not bigger than the club you're not just helping, try to help the club as far as possible to reach and to bring success to supporters. I think football club, the supporters live and die for that club. And you see that, what happened with the Super League, whatever, two, three years ago.

49:34And of course, a club need to earn money because you need commercial partners. You need guys who pay a lot of money for a business room. But in general, the supporters are the backbone of the club. How important is legacy to you? It's not, I think I have it as a player. You achieve something here. You achieve something in Manchester, at Juventus. and I've never been back to Fulham, for example, so I would love to go to Fulham on a normal way, just go there, go to Cave and Cottage, take the bus from Kingston or something over Putney Bridge. Those things, what my kids did to experience it again with them or maybe with their grandchildren, those things that will be great.

50:11And Legacy, I think a club like Ajax, it's to bring that back with all the people, with all the work that's been done, with many people that are not here at the moment anymore, but yeah I found it more like a like a relay I have the baton in my hand and if you want to give it to someone else that is better equipped financially on the supporters side and give it to someone else who do something with it because it's not my club it's the club from the supporters had a fantastic time as a player and as a director and it's I'm looking forward to whatever next couple years and let's see what it what it will become and the final question thank you so much for giving us your time and it's so interesting to break down what's been it's good to talk after quite a difficult season because I think it gives such a unique perspective to football fans who all have a very strong opinion about the game and about the job that people like you do so the final message really not just for those football fans but for the myriad of different people that have tuned into this conversation what would you like to leave ringing in their ears your final message for living a high performance life don't forget to enjoy it because that's what I never ever do.

51:24But hard times are you take it on. Sometimes the enjoyment or the success, I think, yeah, that's part of the job. It's normal. Get on with it. But don't forget to enjoy it. Top man. Thank you so much.

51:40Damien. Jake. I think you could see clearly in that interview and he was working hard not to let the mask slip, but actually the truth that this has been a really difficult season for Ajax and we're talking to Edwin, you know, during the final weekend of the season. It came across actually how hard it's been for him and actually how personally I think he takes it, which is understandable. Yeah, I think it's a great example again of a lesson that we hear so often that success is not a linear journey, that there's going to be setbacks, there's going to be bumps in the road, there's going to be detours that we don't expect.

52:17And I think to meet somebody when they're in the process of navigating the way through that is actually really valuable. It's a really hard one, football, isn't it? Because, you know, all Edwin is doing is his absolute best. And as you heard from the answers he just gave us, he's doing his absolute best for 12 or 15 hours a day. But sometimes you don't get lucky. Sometimes your signings or your recruitment doesn't work out. So therefore fans are entitled to be frustrated. They're entitled to boo him when he talks to them at the end of a season. and they're entitled to share their opinion, I guess, on social media.

52:48But we need to kind of inject into that conversation some modicum of understanding, some modicum of nuance, some modicum of realising that no one is perfect, everyone is doing their best. I don't know how we get this balance right, but it feels in football particularly too far towards the toxicity and the anger and the aggression. Well, I like that phrase you just used, Jake, around nuance because I think too often in life, and we do this whether it's in sport or not, we get caught in this binary trap of good or bad, right or wrong, high performer or low performer, when the reality is there's always subtlety and nuance and complexity that we don't necessarily always see.

53:29And I think conversations like what Edwin's been brave enough to share with us start to open us up to the whole heap of different factors that influence high performance. some of them are within our gift and some are not and I think when we can understand that that boils it back down to that question of are they doing the best they can in the moment they're in with the resources and the knowledge that they have and he's absolutely doing that 100 % I loved as well the little reflections when you actually look back on his career whether it was getting that you know late shout from I mean his impression of Sir Alex Ferguson having to replay the message three or four times to understand what he was saying was brilliant but you know that moment and then you're sharing a dressing room with cristiano ronaldo and seeing his intense professionalism at work there um the early days when they were winning titles and trophies here at the very start of his career all of those highs lows the difficult times the good times it all adds up to the guy that leads ajax today um and that bit where he you know we said what's the hardest part of the job and he said people doubting doubting and misunderstanding saying oh you're just a former goalkeeper i do feel there's a real fire in his belly in that yeah and again like we've heard this from people that don't listen to the podcast but have an opinion on it about this is all survivorship bias this is people that have been successful telling you how successful they've been and yet this is a guy that's actually chosen to go and reinvent himself from somewhere where he was successful to then go and test himself in an environment where results are not immediate that people are quick to judge without knowing the full story and i think all the qualities that he said about learning to cut out the noise to focus on the bits that you can do and to do the stuff in the shadows you know he spoke about going around the office and engaging people in who they are rather than going to them with a purpose just finding out how are you what are you working on and do that at all levels characteristics i'm confident are gonna lead him to be successful again.

55:33But I love the fact that he's sharing it while he's in the foothills of that journey rather than looking back and telling us how it was a seamless transition. Nice. Thanks for your time. Loved it, mate. Thank you. So there you go. Look, I know plenty of football fans, plenty of United fans will listen to this. I would love to hear from you. I'd love to hear from Ajax fans. And just really like, it's just worth thinking about the toll that working in football puts on people and whether it's right, whether the way that we talk about and act and think and be around the game of football these days is healthy for anybody.

56:09Just a quick reminder that you can check out this interview on our YouTube channel. We'd love you to do that. But the biggest thanks, of course, goes to Edwin for being with us on today's podcast, but also to you for growing and sharing this podcast among your community. Please continue to spread the learnings you're taking from this series. Remember, there is no secret. it is all there for you. So chase world-class basics. Don't get high on your own supply. Remain humble, curious and empathetic and we'll see you very soon.