E200 - Dan Carter: The Art of Winning

0:00Hey everyone, I hope you're well. Before we get going with episode 200 of High Performance. I've got some news and it's some news that I'm so excited to share. We are launching the high performance app. And right now we are giving you early access as a thank you for listening to this podcast. So I guess really the app is the new home of high performance. Not only is it free, but it will go even deeper. It will get you even closer to your own version of high performance. There will be exclusive content. There will be unique features such as a daily high performance boost so that every single day, whenever you want it you can get a nugget of inspiration or education from the high performance podcast there's loads more still to come as well but right now you can download the app you can get access and we're going to start by giving you something really special and really unique so after our conversation with dan carter that you're about to hear we did a live q a with our audience in the theater at the hackney empire and that is available right now on the high performance app look the whole point of creating this podcast was to get you closer to your own version of high performance and i honestly believe the app for free for you is the best way to do it so all you need to do right now is either click the link in the description to this podcast or go to where you download your apps download the app high performance and use your unique code H-P-App.

1:22That's all one word, H-P-A-P-P, for early access to our brand new app. And keep your eye on it because there are some really exciting updates to come. Hi there, you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that unlocks the minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jake Humphrey and alongside Professor Damien Hughes, we learn from the stories, successes and struggles of our guests, allowing us all to explore, to be challenged and to grow. Here's what's coming up today. You forget to be thankful for all the things that you've got and often you find yourself complaining at all the things you don't have and wish you had.

2:05And so every night in my book I'll write three things that I'm grateful for. You know that's a really powerful tool that I've had to continue in this life after rugby. If I don't have that structure in my life I just cruise and drift through life and that's not high performance and it's not where I've come from it's not where I want to go in the future. I asked the doctor is my World Cup over and she said yes. I burst into tears, went back to the hotel room, I was angry, I was sad, I was... and I'm a firm believer that things happen for a reason. But in that moment, around this time, nothing made sense at all.

2:50To be involved in a Rugby World Cup final helped the team make history by being the first team to win back-to-back World Cups, being the first All Black side to win a World Cup outside of New Zealand. A lot of that was off the learnings that I got from that injury there. So all of a sudden what I believed things do happen for a reason that that was just you know part of the part of the story so welcome my friends to episode 200 of high performance I mean I can't actually believe that we've reached 200 episodes in that time we've managed 50 million downloads of the podcast across podcast platforms tens of millions of views on our YouTube channel as well and before we get into the episode I really just want to take this moment to acknowledge all of you the people who've been with us on this journey the people who are part of the high performance community the people who understand what we're trying to do with this podcast the people who've shared the lessons and the learnings that they've taken from this and yeah i know that you know we've got senior politicians around the world and people running and competing for and managing some of the biggest sports teams on the planet listening to this podcast but actually it's people like you people who are just getting on with their lives every single day with good days with bad days with struggles, with doubts, with imposter syndrome, with fears.

4:12You are the people that we've created this podcast for. And honestly, to get the messages that we get from you makes the world of difference to us. So welcome to episode 200. And what we've decided to do is revisit one of the greatest guests that's ever joined us on High Performance. So we first spoke to this man, Dan Carter, one of the greatest rugby players of his generation, a true all-black legend a couple of years ago. And then we thought, we need to do this again, because we've never had an episode with more downloads, more reaction, more comments from all of you. So we got Dan in London, on the stage at the Hackney Empire in front of 1200 people.

4:50And we just spoke about the power of leadership. He's just recently written a book about it. And we delve into some of the key points that are in that book. You're going to love this conversation. So let's just get straight to it episode 200 of high performance thank you for your incredible support on behalf of myself damien and the whole team for getting us to this point the most exciting thing is i think we're only just beginning let's get to it then and by the way the crowd at the hackney empire were incredible listen how loud the crowd were when we introduced our guest onto stage

5:33Ladies and gentlemen, a hero, a legend, a leader. Please welcome to the Hackney Empire, live on stage, Dan Carter.

6:08Thank you. That's quite the welcoming, so I appreciate it. It's great to be here in person. We were locked up in New Zealand for far too long and obviously enjoyed speaking with the two of you, I think it was 18 months ago, and the most downloads. I've got a wee confession. um my mother supports me in everything that I do and she's probably listened to that episode about 20 ,000 times so the majority of those downloads were my mother so it's probably not a true reflection of actually how good that episode was thank you so much Mrs Carter for the support you've given your son um well let's talk then about the first time that you came on the high performance podcast you know we always start with the question and you know what the question is what is your definition of high performance.

6:52I've got your first answer here. You said, I absolutely love the word high performance. It just takes me back to my career. And for me, it's all about controlling your mind. So that was November 2021. We're now here quite a lot later. How has that changed? And through that time from since we spoke last time, I just started working on the book that you've all received tonight and my answer now is it's a little bit more sort of well-rounded and my answer and it's something I thought about because I knew you're going to probe the question and actually I thought well I better listen to our last episode and with four young kids at home I don't often get a chance to listen to podcasts at home so I listen to the old podcast when I'm driving in the car.

7:37So a couple of weeks ago when I knew I was coming back on the show I thought right I better listen to the old episode that we did just to make sure I'm not repeating the same old stories. Anyway I was going to play a round of golf about an hour and a half north of Auckland which is where I live now and I was like right actually I'm going to listen to my podcast you know learnings around dealing with pressure, controlling your mind. This is going to be great for my golf game. I think probably one of the best golf games that I'm ever going to have listening to myself and don't get me wrong I hate the sound of my own voice.

8:08It was awful listening to that episode, you know, I got up on the first tee and just shanked it. I hit it 10 metres in front of me, but it's all right because I know about dealing with resilience. I can bounce back from this. I'm a strong attacker. All these learnings from the setbacks that I had in my career to overcome that first shot. 18 holes later, I had the worst round of golf that I've ever, ever played in my life. I'm a 15 handicapper, normally shoot sort of low 90s, I shot 105. Get to the end of the round, and my mates that I played with are going, gee, what happened there? What happened with your game today?

8:45And I was like, shit, do I tell them? Do I tell them that I listened to my own podcast and thought that I was going to have the round of my life? And I was like, bugger it, I'm going to tell them. You know what the problem was? I listened to my own podcast, and they fell to the floor, started just cracking up, laughing. So I'm not really selling my book here, so I've got to be careful. I've got to be careful what I say but through that it reminded me of what I mentioned which you just read out around your mental strength and that's an important part of high performance but I don't think that it's only that that's just a part of it for me high performance now is working at a level that elevates you to be the best you possibly can be through living, learning growing either individually or as a team to seek excellence in everything that you're trying to achieve and things that you really care about so I guess my answer now it's a little bit sort of more general than focusing on your mind but still a question I love coming back to.

9:54I think it's great though that your definition has changed because it signifies growth right and that's what we talk about an awful lot on the High Performance Podcast. And the whole point of the book that you've written is to enable others to grow. So what we thought we would do is you've got kind of the 10 key lessons for life. Would you be happy if we just delved into a few of those and just sort of prodded and probed at some that we think are really especially interesting in the book? Absolutely. And it was a great process and a process that I shared with the publishers today. And we realized we've been working on that for two years.

10:28and to finally see the book all come together. And I only saw it for the first time on Monday. So it's all pretty fresh and new. But just to see it come to life, and I just want to point out that I'm no expert. I'm not trying to tell CEOs of businesses you need to be doing this. I'm not telling you if you do this, you'll guarantee success. All I'm trying to share is some of the learnings and some of the knowledge that I learned from playing what I think is the best sport in the world, rugby, for close to 20 years. And a lot of people ask me, what are you most proud about throughout your career?

11:09And I immediately think of the five-year-old boy I was when I had role models, all blacks that I looked up to. They encouraged me to go out there and live my dreams. And I was one of the lucky ones that was able to live my dream of becoming an All Black. So when I had a chance to reflect on my career, which is something you don't get to do when you're playing, but having hung up the boots, I had a chance to look back and what was I most proud about? And it wasn't the two World Cups that we won, it wasn't the three World Rugby Player of the Year awards, it was actually, I felt like I was able to inspire the next generation of kids, rugby players, to be able to go out there and live their dreams just like I was as a kid so all of a sudden I had this passion of wanting to to give back and that was the the foundation of this book it's not telling you need to do this but actually here's some information that I learned through being involved in one of the best cultures in sport with the All Blacks and playing in lots of different parts of the world as well so it's basically it's just me sharing some of the experiences and knowledge that I learned throughout my career.

12:23And if there is something to help you with navigating change or if there's something to help you be the best version of yourself, then I feel like the book has done its job. Nice. Well, the book itself, Dan, having read it, is brilliant. So I'll sell it for you so you don't have to do it yourself. But one of the chapters that really resonated was the chapter on purpose or what you describe as repurposing your life. Would you tell us a little bit about that and why it's so important? Yeah, I spoke a lot on purpose last time we talked about, and for me, I lived my dream of being an All Black, but that wasn't enough.

13:01I needed something bigger than that, and I just didn't want to be an All Black. I wanted to strive to be an All Black great, and it's not something that I get to the end of my career and go, yep, I was an All Black great. If you're in that conversation, it means you had a pretty good career. So that was my purpose, and that's what was driving me every morning I got out of bed. How can I strive to be an all black great? So I had real direction, real clarity with what I wanted to achieve. Unfortunately, you can't play sport forever and I'd been hiding from retirement, signing new contracts, coming back from injuries, finding new ways to avoid finishing because there was a real fear of what's next.

13:49That day came through the pandemic where I was playing rugby in Japan. My family were living in New Zealand. I raced back before the borders closed and ended up cancelling the Japanese season. I knew that was going to be my last season. And I walk into my son's room and my second son, Fox, he was only five at the time, he was like, what's wrong, Daddy? You look upset. and I had some real anger because I cancelled the season. I wasn't able to finish my career on my terms and I was expecting him to say, oh, bad luck. You know, it's a shame. You know, you can't go back to Japan and finish the season.

14:29But he goes, so you're not going back to Japan? And I was like, no. He goes, oh, that's the best news I've ever heard. He gave me a big hug. And I was like, wow, okay. They just put everything into perspective and that's the same year I finished my career. and when something you've put your heart and soul into for close to 20 years finishes, then you're trying to navigate change. And for me, there was a real loss of identity. Who am I now that I'm not a rugby player? And it happens with a lot of sports people and now I've learned through talking to business people as well that they experience the same.

15:06They just need change. And so that navigation of change was a really challenging thing for me but I had some incredible learnings. I spoke to some of my former teammates that had gone through that change. I talked to some business people that have navigated change and I was just kind of learning as I was going. I was like, I need to document this to be able to help other people that are going through a similar situation to what I'm going through. And I ended up meeting a guy called Kevin Roberts who had worked with individuals, businesses, sporting teams around repurposing. and it was quite confrontational.

15:47He was really challenging me and he made me look within, deeper than I've ever looked within before. What are my characters? What are my beliefs? What are things that I'll never do? What are things I want to take from my previous life as a rugby player that I want to take into this next chapter of my life? And all of a sudden I had some framework. But it was a really valuable process for me to go through this repurposing process with Kevin It just gave me some framework and some direction to walk towards. So one of the questions Kevin asked you that you write about in the book is he challenges you to be both a poet and a plumber, which is a really interesting, evocative phrase.

16:27What did he mean by that? Yeah, so there was actually, yeah, Reid Hoffman, who talked a lot about that. And I was lucky enough to interview him. And he was talking about the strategy of the poet and the plumber and needing both of those systems to be in sync, two completely roles in your plumbers and your poets, but working together to making sure that you're striving to be successful and everything's running smoothly within a team environment. And then you spoke about when, in that same chapter, when you attempted to be the plumber of introducing high performance as a homeschooling parent. Yeah, I had a bit of a shocker there.

17:14So I'd come from Japan, you know, and I have pried myself on, you know, world-leading standards and values and everything I do has to be at a world-class level. So when we got put into lockdown and the children came home from school, I saw that as a challenge. I was like, right, if we're homeschooling, we're going to be the best homeschooling in the world. We're getting out of bed. We're having a really nutritious breakfast. because I need that brain functioning for homeschooling. Then 9 o 'clock we're doing maths. 9.30 we're moving into our reading. Right, you can go outside, have a break, go play some football.

17:52Coming back in at 10.30, we're going to start some writing. And I had this itinerary for them, and it was like I was running a military. Get to the end of the day, my wife looks at me and goes, what the hell are you doing? They're kids, and they're at home. And I just didn't quite read the situation as well. and taking my rugby learnings to homeschooling was an absolute shocker. And I can assure you we didn't go back to Dan Carter's homeschooling process after that day. So it was a bit of a shocker on my behalf, forgetting that they're actually just young kids. And we've all got those stories about homeschooling.

18:29So that was one I didn't really execute that well. This conversation about purpose, though, is interesting when it comes to your family. because when you're an all black right the purpose is very clear like you enter a world cup you want to win the world cup so everyone knows that what advice would you give you know people here in the theater or people listening to this where they're looking for their purpose but they live now as you do in a kind of family dynamic where your partner might be thinking something totally different or your kids might be at all different ages and there's kinds of there's challenges in the real world if you like that just don't exist in the world of professional sport yeah the professional sport is it's a beautiful place because you can be so structured and disciplined and have things that you're striving for.

19:10Something I learned around sort of my personal purpose in particular was it wasn't about winning a World Cup. That's not purpose, that's a goal that you're setting and trying to achieve. Purpose needs to be something far greater, something that you're aspiring to walk towards but you never actually achieve it. So going through this repurposing and I'm still trying to find what it is. The one thing I learned through having a really clear purpose is I was able to have impact in the sport that I was playing. And that's the one thing that I mentioned before that I'm really proud about. So now when I'm thinking about what is my purpose in life now that rugby's gone, what impact am I wanting to leave on this world?

19:59And there's different impacts that you can leave, whether it's environmental, social, economical. Something that I really care about is giving back so that social impact has sort of helped me navigate what is next. So I'm wanting to start giving back to people, hence writing a book, set up my own charity to give back to underprivileged children. I do some mentoring work with young athletes. So that's part of the journey I'm walking towards at this next chapter in my life. but it is so much harder when you're not in this little environment like a sporting team. So what is it now then? Can you sum your purpose up in a sentence?

20:43To be globally admired in the art of winning. So everything that I do, and it's not something I'll achieve, but it's something I'm walking towards and wanting to make a difference with everything that I do. But then within that, you need structure. How does that look? So, you know, I'm constantly setting goals for myself each week. I'm making sure that I do what I say I'm going to do. I'm very organized, very planned, making sure I have balance and it's not all work focused. I'm in this amazing transition. I've been able to spend a lot more time with my family, have flexibility. So I'm still navigating that purpose and growing it.

21:25But it is a challenging thing. And, you know, if you're sitting there going, geez, well, what is my purpose? You know, it's quite a confrontational, challenging, tough question. And what I had to do was I had to sort of look within of who I am. I even started to look back at, you know, my parents and their ancestors of where we came from, the little town that I grew up in, a local river, a lake, that that's who I am as a person. and once you sort of figure out who you are as a person, then you look at things that you're good at and things that you really care about and that sort of helps navigate you to what's next in your life and when you do become a lot clearer of what your purpose is, I just know that the direction that gives you is, you know, it really does help you go to that next level and elevate you to achieve things that you never thought you'd achieve.

22:22Which is on one of the other chapters of the book, which is a fascinating phrase, wakapapa, which is about delving back into your own family history and your origins to understand the characteristics that you can take into the next chapter of your life. Would you tell us a little bit more about that, Dan? Yeah, it's a big part of the New Zealand Māori heritage in New Zealand is wakapapa, so looking back at your ancestors, you know, where you've come from. And we did that with the All Blacks. So we'd constantly look back at the people that had gone before us, the incredible teams that had played before us, the amazing history of the All Blacks.

23:03You know, there were some teams like the 1905 All Black Originals, the 1924 All Black Invincibles, the World Cup winning 1987 teams. In order to move forward, you need to look back and take inspiration and motivation from where you've come from. and that's why we did it in the All Blacks. And then once you realize that and you understand where you've come from, then you can walk forward. And that's what we used to do in the All Blacks. We had this phrase of that All Black jersey that you receive, it's not yours. You're just a custodian of that jersey and your sole mission within the All Blacks is to enhance the legacy, enhance the foundations that have gone before you.

23:50So when you've got an entire squad giving everything that they've got to enhance the legacy, they're putting their body on the line, they're working hard, they're saying yes to multiple things, they're going above and beyond because when you give that jersey back, you need to know that you have left the jersey in a better place than what you got before it. So I'm interested then when you look back, what is the one thing you found out about your family history that really made you take a step back or that you'd like to share with us? And how did that inform the way that you behave, act, think and move forwards today?

24:26Yeah, I've got some Irish ancestry. Excellent. Irish are in the house. Which I learned, number one team in the world at the moment too. It's a bit of a worry. but I think that the biggest learning that I got it just reminded me of where I came from. What did that do for you then? It really helped me with my decision making but more importantly helped me keep my feet on the ground. All of a sudden I've finished playing and I've got all these incredible opportunities in front of me and the temptation to say yes to multiple things and get involved in stuff that I don't really care about. It just, it reminded me of a really important value in the All Blacks is humility.

25:10And it just, it does, it brings you back down to earth. And I remember sort of Tyson Fury talking about after, you know, every big fight that he has, you know, he celebrates that success and then he goes back to his hometown. And that's how he grounds himself. And it was a similar process for me. So you're having success in your life and you're achieving new things and doing great things. but I always felt like I just need to return to my roots, my grassroots and it just makes me really proud of who I am and it centres me as a person and it just gives me the confidence to go, right, I'm going to make my family proud.

25:50I'm going to continue the legacy that they've set up for me. They gave me so much as a child so now it's me to enhance the legacy of my family. Would you mind sharing with us the ways that you make the decision about who is in your circle or who you hang out with? It's something that people struggle with often, not just who to hang out with, but also how you make a decision not to spend time with. You want people in your inner circle that are prepared to challenge you. So, you know, if you're not behaving properly or you're thinking you're a bit better than you actually are, You know, the guys, your friends that will tap you on the shoulder, say, come on, like, this is not true to who you are, not true to, you know, the person that I think you are.

26:38So family are great people to have because they won't bullshit you. And then being really strategic with your friends. And that's probably the hardest thing of working out who they are. but I know the friends that I had before I started playing professional rugby, they're obviously proud of the success I had, but they know me as Dan Carter, not Dan Carter, the rugby player. So, you know, they're the ones that will help you keep grounded, keep down to earth and challenge you. So, you know, it's really important having, you know, people like that in your group. So can you give us an example, Dan, because you also talk in the book that your success wasn't this linear, straight line.

27:17You had setbacks, you had moments where you disappointed yourself. Was there ever an occasion that you can share with us when one of these people in your inner circle gave you the tap on the shoulder and gave you a bit of feedback that resonated? We had incredible leaders in the All Blacks. And, you know, we had this real culture of no individual is greater than the team. So all your decisions that you made had to make sure that you're putting the team first. But we're all human. We all make mistakes. We all do things that we regret. And I made one of those pretty early in my career where we flew to Wales and we drank far too much and we decided to keep the party going and jumped in a cab and cabbed to London.

28:07There was a place in London called The Church that used to open on Sunday. So we're trying to get to The Church. So it was about 10 o 'clock in the morning on a Sunday morning, and we suddenly sobered up and realised what the hell we're doing in London when we've got a game in a week in Cardiff. So we raced back, and we got obviously caught out. And this environment, it doesn't accept poor decisions like that we weren't thinking of the team and putting the team first. So you expect, OK, I'm going to get a bit of a drilling here from the coaches and manager. And Tana Rumanga was our captain at the time.

28:47So we had a team meeting to work out how we're going to punish the five of us that decided it was a good idea to jump in a taxi. And what Tana did is he told the coaches and the management to leave the meeting. He wanted to deal with the players himself. and he really drilled us and it meant so much more coming from your peer than a coach and it was just an amazing example of his leadership and I can assure you just you didn't want to let the team down again. I felt like I'd let the team down, I felt like I'd let my family and friends down, it was one of the most challenging weeks of my rugby career and because my mind started sort of thinking and I was just burning all this energy thinking about what I'd done and who I'd hurt and I was like man I've got a test match coming up so that was actually the first time I knocked on the door of the psychologist Gilbert Anoka the team psychologist I was like I need help I can't focus on the game I'm just burning energy I don't want to train I don't want to play and back then, you know, I've been playing for the All Blacks for three years, that if you're spending one-on-one time with a psychologist, your teammates think you're a bit of a wacko and something's wrong with you.

30:08It's amazing because at the end of your career, if you're not seeing a psychologist, your teammates are going, well, why not? You want to be the best player in the world. So everyone was seeing the psychologist, but early in my career 20 years ago, you didn't want to be seen spending time with a psychologist. So what he did is he really helped me focus on the here and now to stop my mind from drifting. So what he did is he made me write out a 24-hour plan and put in every single hour, what I need to do every single hour of that day, wake up at this time, breakfast at this time, stretch at this time.

30:45So when I found my mind drifting on the mistake that I'd made and the people that I'd hurt, and tell me just whack yourself on the leg and go back to your plan and make sure that you're living in the here and now and you're controlling your mind and you're not burning unnecessary energy on things you can't control. So we got through 24 hours, we met again, we reviewed what times were hard, what were difficult, what went well, what didn't go so well and then we'd do another 24 hours. And it just really taught me about controlling my mind, living in the moment, focusing on the process, what I need to do in the here and now.

31:24And from that moment, I used Gilbert and the psychologist almost every week to help me prepare the best I possibly could. I went on to have a fantastic game, scored the most points an All Black has ever scored against Wales in that game, and a lot of it was off the back of not the mistake and the piss-up, I can assure you that, But actually like learning to control my mind. And it was one of the first times I'd spent time with a psychologist on a one-on-one basis. And the growth that I got from that was incredible.

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33:28But there's a great lesson in that, isn't there? That you were sort of dealt this large dose of humility because you made a mistake. And we go through life trying to avoid making mistakes. But the truth is that without that mistake, the resulting learning never happens. And humility is a really interesting chapter in the book. It is one of the 10 lessons. When I say humility, what do you think of? I merely think of making sure that you're constantly thankful for everything that's happening around you and the life that you live. Far too often we take things for granted, especially in the sporting level.

34:06and when you're playing at the highest level, playing internationally, you expect to get free stuff. You expect there to be free food in the changing room. You expect to have the best coaches and you can get just a little bit ahead of yourself and you forget to be thankful for all the things that you've got and often you find yourself complaining at all the things you don't have and wish you had. So humility is a constant reminder to consistently be thankful for things, don't take things for granted. It's a big part of our culture in New Zealand to make sure you're always keeping your feet on the ground, making sure that you're leaving places, team rooms, changing rooms in just as tidy as they were when you first walked in to those changing rooms.

34:57So it was a big part of the all-black culture and it's a big part of the New Zealand culture and how I've had to navigate that into life after rugby's sort of been a challenge. But one thing I learned around that gratitude is actually working on it. And so every night in my book, I'll write three things that I'm grateful for. And I might have found myself complaining for the day or not having the best day. And before I go to bed, I'm writing three things that I'm grateful for, really simple things and often repeat them. I'm really grateful for the health of my children, really grateful for the beautiful sun that's shining today, really grateful for the awesome business meeting that I was lucky enough to sit in, really simple things, but it just constantly reminds you of being grateful for the things that you've got and not moaning about the things you have not.

35:50So it's a really powerful tool that I've had to continue in this life after rugby. and journaling is something that you spoke to us on the last podcast around how you how you've you're pretty diligent at it and there's a picture that we have of the journal that you wrote before some of your big your biggest test matches and what's particularly interesting to me in it was that you almost acknowledge here some of the negative emotions that you were going through as well. Like you speak about before that epic lion's test in 2005, how you were feeling nervous, you were feeling frightened. And that almost flies in the face of this idea that we often assume high performers like yourself have got this constant positive thinking, the idea that you don't allow negative thoughts in.

36:41And yet we see in your journal, that's precisely what you were doing. What did that do for you? There's no point sort of, you know, hiding or blocking out the way that you're feeling. You almost need to embrace it, providing you've done the work, the preparation. Nerves are good things in my opinion. It means you're on the verge of doing something that you really care about. And I was pretty nervous walking onto the stage tonight. So what I used to do, and this is an example of that, is I used to plan my weeks on a Sunday night. I talked about it the last time that we spoke I was really regimented with what I wanted to achieve every single day so I had you know real direction real structure to help me just go out there and play but the night before the game I would write notes like this one here where I'd write about how I'm feeling in that moment and not to shy away from from the emotions that I'm feeling and also the way I wanted to feel, just to remind myself to continue breathing, to smile, to have fun.

37:48So really simple, clear messages that just would help kind of almost just put a full stop to my week of preparation. So I knew, right, after that, I don't need to think. I just need to go out there and play and execute and play with freedom because I've done the work, I've dealt with my feelings and that gave me the confidence to be the player that I possibly can be. And when I was kind of going through that transition and I wasn't playing rugby anymore, I was a little bit lost in identity. I was like, man, I've forgotten one thing that I used to do that was so important to me and my direction was actually writing in my book.

38:27So did you stop that then? Yeah, for a brief year, a brief period, kind of through that transition and it wasn't until I sort of reminded myself that that was such an important part of what I used to do that I wanted to take into this next chapter of my life. So I wiped the old dust off my old books. I was like, right, let's get back into it. And it was very different because back then I was writing things like extra stretching sessions that I needed to do, extra goal-kicking sessions that I'd do outside of our training plan. So one thing that I learned pretty quickly, the importance of exercise for me.

39:06I was lucky enough to be paid for 18 years to keep fit and all of a sudden now I'm having to motivate myself and I knew that I get a bit grumpy and agitated when I don't exercise. So I knew I needed that as part of my weekly routine. So I'd write down my weekly training plan of when I'm going to train just so I can hold myself accountable. I'd also set goals for the week, be really decisive in your decision making this week or actually just enjoy the week something really simple, just a goal and then I'd have three or four really key messages making sure you're present at work and present at home making sure that you be nice to people this week so when I'm writing and then the last piece was the gratitude that I'd write each night and I was constantly reminding myself of my goals, behaviours that I wanted to act like throughout the week and then I'd get to the end of the week and obviously I didn't have a game of rugby to play but I felt like I was able to earn my beer, earn my weekend and really sort of enjoy those moments because if I don't have that structure in my life, I just cruise and drift through life and that's not high performance and it's not where I've come from and it's not where I want to go in the future.

40:28so what are you like in your own mind then when you get to the end of a week where you haven't actually managed to fulfill what you wrote down in your book or you've perhaps let yourself down or you've fallen short because i think what we always have to be so careful is to sit and have these conversations and i think it's really powerful but there will definitely be people listening who almost feel inferior because they because they aren't like you it almost sounds perfect right and i think that's a dangerous message to give out because no one is i don't achieve what I write every single week.

40:57The weeks that I do, I feel that satisfaction is amazing. For example, the family and I got a bit crook, got the flu. I didn't write anything for three weeks. Was I hard on myself at the end of that? No. It's like, okay, you're not perfect. You don't deal with things. But I knew the importance of getting back into writing that consistency, and it gave me sort of new motivation. Because sometimes in life, you don't always have that motivation, but that consistency, that discipline to stay with it. So at the end of the week, before I'm about to write the following week, I'll review the week. Why didn't you do what you said you'd do?

41:39How do you do the review? It's very general. Even if you're just kind of ticking across whether you were present at home, yeah, there was a pass or not quite. So very simple, but you know whether you achieved it or not. And if I didn't, for no apparent reason, I'd be quite hard on myself. And I didn't have that satisfaction, but it gave me motivation. Right, well, why? That needs to be a focus of this week. And then every now and then you'd review it and say, okay, well, this happened, things that you couldn't control. You don't need to beat yourself up in moments like that. But as long as you're seeing constant growth, your mindset of wanting to be better than it was before, then as long as you're moving in the right direction, at what pace it's irrelevant, you don't need to have three months of doing everything that you've achieved to be successful but just that discipline of going through that process is something that I've really found beneficial for me in this transitioning out of rugby.

42:38There's a lovely phrase you use there about not beating yourself up and there's a picture that you feature in the book that I want to share with you here because I'm interested in you having a look at it and telling me what was going on for you in the moment that this picture in particular captures it's in 2011 there's a few emotions that are going through through my head right now looking at this in that moment it was probably one of the hardest moments of of my life but then now that knowing that that was 12 years ago and what I learned from that moment there has helped me be the person that I am today so to give people bit of context around that photo is in 2011, that morning Richie McCaw pulled out of the game, it was the last round robin game of the Rugby World Cup in 2011.

43:33It was my third Rugby World Cup so I thought right that's going to be my last Rugby World Cup of unsuccessful Rugby World Cup in 2003, unsuccessful one in 2007 but the growth that we got from 2007 Rugby World Cup in New Zealand in our own backyard this is our time, this is our moment I went into that tournament with such confidence, I was at the peak I was 29 years old, so I was at the peak of my career, this is the one, and I'd been vice captain behind Richie McCall for three years, but I'd never captain the All Blacks so when I got the phone call from the coaches that morning saying you're captain, it was a really proud moment straight on the phone to my father he was so proud you know big smile I'm sure he was straight booking flights to Wellington to come watch the game went straight into a press conference my first ever press conference as captain so my chest was out shoulders were back it was a pretty proud moment answering questions and then the last training of the week is the captain's run I'm captain, I get to decide what we do at the captain's run, this is pretty cool, played a bit of touch rugby, went through a few parts of our game plan, it was always really low key training, 50 % speed, and then always finish the captain's run by kicking goals.

44:59and I've kicked millions of kicks in my life but my last kick on on this day as I came in and the impact of my boot kicking the ball I dropped to the ground and that's what that photo was there and I knew at that moment that my world cup dream was over and what I later found out is I tore my adductor muscle off my pubic bone and we ended up having to quickly race off the field because the media was about to arrive. So didn't want me lying on the ground, squirreling like a pig apparently. That's what a certain coach, Mr. Steve Hansen, described it as. And I got raced off to hospital. We had an MRI scan, but I didn't want to know the results.

45:48It was too devastating for me. So they, do you want to come see the results? I'm not prepared to know the answer. Jumped in the car, went back to the hotel, and then halfway on that journey, I asked the doctor, is my World Cup over? She said yes, and I burst into tears, went back to the hotel room. I was angry, I was sad, I was, and I'm a firm believer that things happen for a reason. But in that moment, around this time, nothing made sense at all. Why me? Why such a serious injury? Why now in the biggest tournament of my life, day out from the game where I was going to captain the All Blacks?

46:31So it was a really challenging time. My teammates would come in. They couldn't say a word because there's nothing they could say. It was silence, but just their support was really appreciated. And what I learned through that time was when you have disappointments, setbacks, failures, it's really important to grieve, to let your emotions out. Don't hide your emotions through those moments because it would have been far too easy for me just to go, bugger, but I'm a positive guy. I'm going to move on to what's next and kind of bullshit yourself a little bit and I guarantee you it would have come back and bit me in the ass at some stage in the future.

47:14So it's really important learning about sort of dealing with resilience and these setbacks is to deal with your emotions. And then I realised, what is my purpose in life? That's right, my first test match. I didn't want to be an All Black, I want to be an All Black great. Well, what does an All Black great do in a moment like this? He rehabs his injury better than anyone's rehabbed this injury before. He sets new goals. So I re-signed a new contract with New Zealand Rugby Union for another four years to give myself another crack at one more World Cup. And then actually the team first, one of the values of the All Blacks.

47:46What does a team man do in this situation? well he gets his ass out of his hotel room and actually goes helps the team so I did I realized I had to just park my emotions and with your emotions you can either deal with it straight away which I did for 24 hours but then I knew I needed to flick the switch and move on so it's okay it's important to grieve but there needs to be a time that you move on because me sulking around the hotel for the next couple of weeks is that's not gonna not gonna help anyone so I always gave myself a 24-hour period to deal with my emotions. That's why my wife knew after an injury just to leave me alone for 24 hours because I'm not a very nice person to be around.

48:26So I went out and I helped the team. We went to our second string, number 10, he got injured. Went to our third string, he got injured, to the legendary Beaver, Steve Donald, fourth string, who was white baiting at the time, got caught into the All Blacks, played a World up final, kick the goal, incredible story. But I felt like my duty was to help these guys, making sure I always put the team first. So there were some huge learnings for me. So when I look at this picture now and the strength that that setback gave me, the determination that that gave me to push forward another four years to help walk towards my purpose, the strength that gave me to know that I can have these failures, disappointments, setbacks, and know that I can bounce back.

49:19And 12 months after that photo, I was named World Rugby Player of the Year. So to bounce back so quickly was a really proud moment. Whether I deserved it or not, it's probably debatable. I don't think I did, but it was, yeah, to kind of move on. And so now I'm sitting here looking at that photo in a completely different way to that 24 hours after that. So that's why there's so much sadness, disappointment, so much trauma when I see that photo. But then to realise what happened four years later in 2015, to be involved in the Rugby World Cup final, help the team make history by being the first team to win back-to-back World Cups, be the first all-black side to win a World Cup outside of New Zealand.

50:11A lot of that was off the learnings that I got from that injury there. So all of a sudden, what I believed, things do happen for a reason. That was just part of the story. Thank you.

50:33it's been really interesting to sort of pick up on little moments throughout your career and i think the great reminder for people in this room is that people often see someone like you and go you know you've taken all of these perfect moments in your life and you've managed to turn it into being this great dad great husband and someone that's found a career after rugby but And actually, you know, we've sat and spoken for the last 50 minutes or so. And actually, the biggest learnings came in the hard times. The biggest growth came after the setback. And it's all about the comeback after the setback.

51:01And I just think that I'd love to finish this conversation by just seeing where you are at now in your own head as a dad and as a husband and as a friend. And just to kind of wrap up just how different life feels for you now. you no longer have the rigid life of an all-black, but in so many ways your life is probably richer now than it's ever been before. Yeah, it is. We had an interesting conversation backstage around, jeez, sports people often go into a mindset, oh, the best days are behind me. I'm never going to be able to match what I achieved in the sporting field. And the more you understand that life is different now.

51:42There are new challenges. There are new ways to grow. And I had some incredible conversations with a friend of mine called Tim Brown. So he was a professional footballer and then he transitioned out of sport. He was the captain of the All Whites, the New Zealand soccer team. And then he went on to be a really successful businessman. He founded a shoe company called Allbirds, valued at ridiculous amounts of money, listed on the American Stock Exchange. He had real success. And he taught me a really good lesson and he said, look, in life you're probably going to have maybe three peaks. And your sporting career, that's one peak.

52:28And what you achieved there is incredible. Now far too many people, when they finish, they expect to go into business or their next life at that same level. They're not humble enough to actually go backwards and learn new skills, humble yourself and get back to the start line. And that's exactly how I felt when I finished playing. I was like, this is exciting because I'm back on the start line. I feel like I was at the start of my rugby career, but I've got this wealth of knowledge and experience from my first peak that I'm kind of going backwards. I'm learning new skills, learning a lot about me as a person, learning all sorts of new things around businesses and start-ups that I've been involved in.

53:15But that next peak, it's going to far exceed the peak of being a rugby player because I've got all this knowledge behind me. It's this new type of education that I've learned from playing sport to close to 20 years. So I'm really excited about this next chapter in my life and through this transition, just having that flexibility to be there for my family's been important. I'm one of these people that when I commit to something, I'm all in. And that's how I was with my all-black career. It's even hard for me saying this, that at times I actually had to put my family second to the journey and things that I wanted to achieve.

53:52And now that I'm able to do school drop-offs, I'm coaching my second son Fox's rugby team and just seeing their development and their growth. And I'm even refereeing some of his games, and I can assure you all the parents on the sideline just shut up. It's amazing. He's eight. So normally they're chirping the referees. Imagine being eight years old and Dunk Arthur's coaching your team. Imagine being in the opposition when Dunk Arthur's so good. The beauty is at that age they don't know about my career because they're too young. So I rock up to school and they're like, man, Fox, your dad is so cool.

54:28and he's thinking, oh, why? And I'm like, oh, because he's a YouTuber. And my son's like, what? He's retired from rugby and now we watch him on YouTube, all his highlights. So he's a YouTuber. So all of a sudden, I'm a really cool dad because they think I'm a YouTuber now that I'm not playing rugby anymore because they can see me on YouTube. That amazing career and you've been reduced to an influencer. Exactly. That's what happens. Listen, that has been such an interesting conversation. Thank you so much for opening up, for sharing so much with us. for writing the book that you've written. I'm so pleased that, you know, we were able to fill this theatre this evening, that people were able just to spend an hour in your company.

55:05To read the book is one thing, but to hear you talk about it in such an authentic and honest and humble way. And let me just be totally clear, okay? Sometimes you do these things and you sit on stage and someone tells you all of these lovely things and you think, well, I don't believe what you say because I see what you do. I saw your behaviour backstage. Backstage with you, the conversations we've had before today, how you've been with the team, you are absolutely everything that you say you are and that's actually a rare quality so on behalf of everyone in the theatre and everyone on high performance thank you so much Dan Carter thank you thank you

55:55Damien. Jake. It was a real pleasure to be in the Hackney Empire that evening, speaking to Dan Carter. You know, it's one thing sitting and having a one-to-one conversation like this. It's something very different in a big theatre. And I'll be honest, I was really worried that, you know, maybe Dan wouldn't be free to be himself or talk in a really honest way or that he might sort of play up to the crowd if you like but I almost think that we saw more from him because of the crowd in there and he's a man who spent his whole life having to deliver his best performances in front of an audience and I think he did that yeah that's a really good point there was a moment during the interview where I sort of allowed myself to tune out and instead tune into to what was happening around us you know it's an immense privilege to have been sat in a room with a thousand other people listening to a genuine game changer like Dan talk so openly and candidly so it was just a moment of gratitude for myself and I think that was one of the things that I was learning almost by osmosis from from Dan and sometimes just be in the moment don't be thinking about the next question or thinking about what's just been said just to allow yourself to be in the moment is a really powerful um a really powerful lesson and I think that was the one thing I'd encourage anyone to take away from this is be where you are not where you wish you were or where you've been previously just be in the moment you're in and I love the idea that you know high performance isn't a period in your life high performance is something that stays with you throughout so he might not be a professional rugby player anymore but he's still living his life in a high performance way I mean the fact that he wanted to you know the way he spoke to the team before we did the event he wanted to know how's it going to run where's it going to be what are the questions like what's the venue like how many people what's the layout on the stage right he arrives early he says hello to everybody he eats a really healthy lunch he then makes sure he comes and does a full rehearsal he then hung around backstage afterwards which he didn't need to do by the way to speak to all of the people who wanted to meet him he then came upstairs for a beer and he spoke a bit further and he signed some rugby shirts for a local rugby club like the entire process of working with him was high performance and Dan from the minute we met him to the minute he said goodbye and got in his cab and headed back off into central London was the epitome of high performance yeah I think that's a really nice light to shine on him because I think people could listen to the interview but we had the we were lucky enough to spend the time with him as well backstage and I'll really treasure where we just sat and shared a few beers and he told us some stories relating to his own career and his own superstardom and how he's just so down to earth i i think what people have seen is an ordinary man with an extraordinary talent and i think that is high performance in its own right loved it thanks mate thank you mate so there you go episode 200 of the high performance podcast recorded live in front of an audience at the Hackney Empire.

58:54Thank you so much for listening. Dan, thank you so much for coming to the UK to do that with us. And don't forget Dan's book, The Art of Winning, is out now. And trust me, it's well worth a read. But once we'd finished the conversation with Dan, we had a Q &A with the audience. It was great fun, actually. We had these microphones shaped as rugby balls. Dan was throwing them around inside the theatre. People were asking questions. And here's a little taste of what went on, because as well as questions from the audience, we also had some special guests asking Dan a question, including this one from his dad.

59:24Yes Dan, why did you leave it to the last test as an international player playing for the All Blacks to show us that you could kick with your right foot after all the practice we did at home during those young ages to make sure that you could kick with both feet. But I dare say you've got a special reason why you left it to that very, very last kick but I knew it was coming so it was a pretty proud moment. and that Q &A is available right now on the High Performance app. If you would love to enjoy that exclusive content, then all you need to do is either click the link in the description to this podcast or go to the App Store and search for High Performance and then use your unique code HPAPP.

1:00:07That's H-P-A-P-P and you can hear our Q &A with Dan Carter inside the Hackney Empire. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you soon.

1:00:21Thank you.