Eddie Howe: How His Newcastle Exit Echoes Leaving Bournemouth

0:02I think it was time. Yeah, I think I knew that season that it had taken every ounce of energy out of me to try and keep the team up. And yeah, it was sort of a moment in my head that I just knew. It's a hard decision with Football League's Your Life and also their club. You know, Bournemouth was my life. But I always felt in my heart that I had to do what was right for Bournemouth, not for me. I would not have been the manager that Bournemouth needed me to be. I just needed to get away.

0:30Eddie Howe: Eddie Howe has stepped away from Newcastle United after nearly five years in charge. A first major trophy for the club in 70 years, Champions League football twice and then, after what he called a period of personal reflection, he's decided it's time to go. When Jake and I sat down with Eddie back in 2022, he'd just taken the job. But before it, he'd left Bournemouth after relegation and he told us something that most managers never actually say out loud. that it felt a little bit like grief, that he mourned it like it was a failure and the pressure he carried was never coming from the crowd or the board.

1:07Eddie Howe: It was entirely his own. He also told us about missing his mum in the final few months because he was too busy managing a football club to be there at her side and it's a regret he's carried ever since. Knowing what we know now, this conversation hits a little bit differently. Here's Eddie Howe in his own words on what this job actually costs and how do you know when it's time to walk away.

1:36The first thing I did when we got relegated was sort of mourn and sort of grieve that thing that had happened, that failure in my eyes. And it took me a period to sort of come out of that malaise that I was in for a while. And then immediately I was like, right, I want to analyse what happened and sort of look at myself and go, right, how can I come back a much better version of the manager that's just left the game? And part of my learning then was to go and listen to your podcast, which I'd never really heard of. I stumbled across it and I was hooked straight away. I was like, these are amazing.

2:07And you were both amazing. And I wanted to reach out and just tell you that you'd really helped me in that period. So can we go in then to that period that you spent out of the game, that year out of the game? You've come with some notes, right? I asked you, I reached out and asked whether you wouldn't mind just coming with five of your biggest lessons from that time out of the game and how they sit with you now. So how should we start this? Yeah, well, I think just I didn't have a plan. So as I said, I'd come out of that thing, the failure, the relegation and thought, right, how did that happen?

2:42What did I do wrong? I'm very honest and open with myself. And I asked people that I know to sort of critique me and give me feedback. and I did it myself as well. And I thought, these are the areas that I think I need to improve. And how do I go about doing that? And part of that was education. So improving me was a big part of what I had to do. I'd just gone through a really intense period. I don't know how long it was, 12 years in management where you don't get time to even blink. So you're working, you're reacting, you're planning, preparing, but you're not sort of investing in yourself and working on any potential weaknesses that you might have.

3:23What did you find then? Well, I looked at it and thought that there's definite things that I'd neglected through work that I had to really, really focus on. So my body of work that existed was all on in books. So I had a tower of diaries where I'd put every training session, recorded it, and that was it. That was my body of work. So if you had asked me a question on how do you deal with problem players or how do you deal with this situation that occurs in your job, I wouldn't have been able to give you an answer. Really? Well, yeah, because it would have been in here, but it wouldn't have necessarily been something that I could refer to or a body of work behind it.

4:05So I spent hour after hour after hour in my study, digesting all my training sessions, coding them, putting them into groups. And that just happened by chance. I just started fiddling around and then I was like, I've got to get this done. So now if you ask me to find a training session or how do you play against this type of team, I'd be able to find it straight away.

4:26Eddie Howe: See, that reminds me of the story attributed to Jose Mourinho, Eddie, that when he left Barcelona before he went into coaching, he talks about that was the period where he collated what he called his Bible, his methodology that he was going to implement when he went into clubs. and some of it was around the social, the tactical, the psychological and the technical side of it. So what kind of categories did you include when you were starting to code these 12 years of experience? Well, it started with the training sessions. So it started with the basics in possession, out of possession, and it just grew legs.

5:02It just grew so many different bits off of it. And I was like, the more I started to enjoy the process and thought this is going to help me, the more intense it got. So I'd gone right through that. And then it branched into all the other areas of the job. So everything that comes with being a football manager, so dealing with players, dealing with media, board level supporters, all my philosophies around how I want to work, what am I going to do on Mondays, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Things that I'd know, again, I'd had it all in here, but I didn't have anything to refer to. You know, the brain can only take so much information.

5:42So I felt this is my Bible now. It's something I refer to every day and use consistently. And away from the football side, the tactical side, what did you want to learn about yourself and improve about yourself on a personal level, which helps you with your job? Well, yeah, I mean, on a personal level, it was about improving my knowledge tactically. So I'd played near enough one system, not through the whole of my management career, but majority. I wanted to be consistent with what I did. I wanted my players to understand what was required of them. So I thought, right, I have to go away and I have to try and watch people work.

6:24I have to try and improve my tactical understanding, my delivery. So even breaking down half-time team talks, full-time team talks, everything that covers my job, I wanted to look in depth and then find a few strategies and things that would help me when I got back in.

6:43Eddie Howe: So what did you find that you were doing really well? Because I appreciate that the analysis was what you could do better. But I think a big part of this kind of analysis is also acknowledging you were doing things very successfully for a long period. Yeah, I suppose from that side, I'm not so good at that. So I think a lot of my training sessions, when I look back at them, are very good. so I was looking back at things and I thought I remember doing that about 10 years ago because I had it all on film so I was like that was really good and I haven't done that since so I'm going to bring that one back out so you're rediscovering things that you'd forgotten so I'd say the majority of my training I was pleased with what I was delivering but it was a whole host of other things that go into the job that were sort of blank spaces that I needed to fill Like what for example?

7:31Like I said earlier you said to me what would you what was your philosophy at half time how do you and i'll be like well i just help my players but how do you help your players and and do you have different ways of talking with your players are you going to do it in ones and twos you can do it in units are you going to do it all 11 where are you going to do it that sounds obvious but yeah so it was analyzing breaking that down things that i hadn't done at that level before um i wanted to make sure that i had strategies and things that I could strategically bring out when I needed them.

8:06Eddie Howe: So give us an example then of what you would do now differently at half time than what you maybe would have done before this kind of introspection. Well, the first thing I did at Newcastle, and you just reminded me, is I set up a different area. So the changing room is obviously the changing room. You'd expect most talks to be done in the changing room, but I almost wanted that to be the player space. So there's a, well, actually there wasn't a room. we created a room so we knocked down a few walls and built a room next to the changing room and when i do my half-time team talk i take the lads in there and in there's a couple of tactics board and a tv and it's a much more well it's a separate space so you try and get the lads attention yeah and their focus rather than their fiddling around with strappings and things in around their area which they would normally do and where did you learn that from i didn't actually that was just an idea that came to me right yeah so then how do you work out because obviously you had a year out of the game right so there's a million ideas coming all the time how did you decide which ideas stuck and which ones were kind of discarded along the journey well i think you're right and you don't want to i didn't want to change everything because a lot of what i'd done had worked over a long period of time so it was a case of really looking at as i said a lot of training sessions that i did i loved and looking back there was a lot that i'd forgotten that i wanted to bring back in um so you've got to be very careful that you don't throw out the good stuff and bring in stuff that you're not so sure about and also it's got to be you it's got to be coming from your ideas and your method not things you've seen from other people that you copy that doesn't work so it's got to be uh fully embraced uh my work and um i did go out and i was very fortunate enough to see a lot of teams work around the world um i think i worked at out earlier i I think there's about eight different clubs around the world that I went to see and learn.

9:58And, you know, that in terms of is like gold dust because you very rarely get a chance to do that. I'd love to delve into some of the stuff you've got written down that you've brought with you today. Would you mind just sort of talking us through some of the stuff that you've written and brought with you from this period? What does it start with? Well, the first thing, why did I fail? Assess my strengths and weaknesses. Why did I fail? So you see it as a failure, right? Yeah, yeah. Let's be clear about that to start with. Yeah, I saw that as a failure, yeah. A personal failure? Yeah. Why? Yeah.

10:33I think when you're managing, you know, my feeling is that you take ultimate responsibility for what happens. And I felt that, yeah, I didn't do my job probably for the first time as a manager. I'd not delivered what I felt I could deliver. and I felt I needed to take accountability for that for myself not for anyone else for myself to go right okay then why and why so many different there's no one reason yeah loads I'm interested in a bit about you feeling that you were no longer delivering because I imagine and I've never been a football manager but you're at Bournemouth and you're still doing what you've always done and you're still as dedicated and you're still not sleeping at night because you're want to read about result so at what point are you not doing or not delivering what you like letting yourself down like did you change what you were doing did you lose the drive get disillusioned no none of those things no i worked you know i can look myself in the mirror and say it wasn't through lack of effort or commitment or anything to do with anything connected with the job um but clearly from what i felt the results and the performances weren't what they could have been And ultimately, I think you have to then take responsibility for that as the leader of what's going on.

11:50But then, as I said, there's no one reason as to why anything doesn't work. There's probably 15 to 20 little things that go to make that big performance not right.

12:07Eddie Howe: Again, I'm fascinated by these little threads that eventually pull them all and the whole thing starts to unravel. what are the kind of threats now that you'd be alert to in a new club that you'd go if I start to see like a little fissure there or a little crack started I would deal with that a lot faster what kind of examples would you well I think the core basics of a team like you need the team to be committed you need the team to play for the team not for the individual within the team you know the core sayings around teamwork if they don't exist you're not going to be successful right so they're you know they're warning signs that the team is not where it needs to be and then you need to do things that that impact that now there are other things that maybe sometimes they'll be on your control injuries and lots of different things that you don't necessarily have control over that's why i say it's never just one thing yeah there's always a host of reasons but But overall, I think if you don't take accountability for them, you're not doing your job as the leader.

13:11What's next on your list of learnings? So then it was about improving me. So the first section really was improving me. And that comes back to all the visits that I undertook to different people, different teams. But I tried to do it slightly differently. And again, this is organically. It wasn't me beforehand thinking. This is just in the process. So I visited, and I didn't realize this until I wrote it down, two CEOs, three owners of football clubs. because I wanted to see a different perspective. I wanted to go to the owners to say, what do you like in a manager? What don't you like? I like that.

13:42And what surprised you from the answers you got then? How deeply they thought about their appointments, how much the personality of the manager also played a hugely important part in their support or not support for the manager. It's a complex thing. I think that human relationship you have with someone And I think if they genuinely like you and think you're working hard for them, they will give you a little bit longer.

14:11Eddie Howe: So what about managing upwards? Because, again, when we interviewed Frank Lampard on this, he spoke about just that importance of alignment, of not just thinking it's about managing the team downwards, it's about managing the decision makers above it. What kind of tips did these CEOs and club owners give you about how they like to be communicated with and the nature of that communication? Well, yeah, there's a couple of interesting things that spring to mind. So one is honesty. So even if you make a complete mess, as long as you hold your hands up and take it and admit it, they won't hold it against you.

14:46Well, the guys I spoke to. They said they wouldn't. They said they wouldn't, but they would respect that rather than trying to hide it. And if you try and hide something anyway, they'll soon smell it out and know what's going on. So I thought that was a really important thing, because in football you're always, you're making so many decisions, you're not going to get every single one right.

15:08Eddie Howe: Yeah. So yeah, some honesty I think was all they were looking for. That was one of the key things. Very nice. And where did you go to next on your journey of discovery? Yeah, so then I went to a couple of individuals and there's some really fascinating ones. So yeah, as I said, boxing, I went to Shane McGuigan's boxing club. That was fascinating, Saracens. And Barry Hearn. So I went to see Barry in his house. and I did think it might be interesting just to read a few couple of his quotes out because I wrote them down just in note form but when I was looking back today before coming here I was like wow they're unbelievable so it's better to be lucky than good looking tell the truth pressure is only felt by those that fail think poor life ends in tears so enjoy the rest of it life doesn't change sitting on a sofa avoid being avoid being a secret show how good you are shout how good you are from the rooftops can't read my own writing here imagine you're a new car what separates you from the others when having a meeting know your opponent's weakness so just some amazing things from Barry who was fascinated I spent about three hours with him and obviously he'd owned a football club and had so many different aspects of sport in his life He was absolutely brilliant with me.

16:31And I loved that. There was another one he gave me as well. He said, life is like a game of snakes and ladders. He said, people are very good at going up the ladders, but they don't react so well going down the snakes. Which, just a few little things that just make you think, I thought he was a fascinating character. Was there ever a point where you thought, maybe I wouldn't go back into management after that experience? Yeah, there was because I did football management because I loved it. And I loved helping people. I love developing footballers and trying to help change their lives. I wasn't doing it necessarily for me or for the money.

17:09So when I came out of it, I was like, let me reset and see what I want to do. There might be something else that comes up in my life and a direction that takes me somewhere totally different. I then realised very quickly that football is in me and it's not going to leave anytime soon. So as I said, it took me three or four months to sort of get over that and then go, right, and now I'm going to get going again in football and in football management.

17:33Eddie Howe: So we get quite a few queries from people that listen to this podcast that find themselves at a similar crossroads to what you described of debating whether they're on the right career path or whether they need a pivot and go in a different direction. what kind of advice or tips did you learn about this period of introspection that others could maybe apply of how they go about asking themselves that question well I think I stayed away from football um for that time so in that three four months I I really did stay away from it I don't think I did any media and my first sort of coming out of it was the media work and I um I felt I I was asked to do lots of different things, like Jake saying, and I refused everything.

18:19And I think then the first thing I did was Monday night football. So I sort of stayed away intentionally to see if I missed it and I wanted to do it again. Right. Rather than sort of surround me, like going to games straight away or going here, there and everywhere straight away. I sort of, maybe on a subconscious level, thought, no, stay away, see if you miss it. So almost that absence was key, I think. Okay.

18:43Eddie Howe: that reminds us of when we interviewed Matthew McConaughey and he spoke about when he makes a decision on a movie he completely commits to it and then lives as if he's going to do it and sees how that feels with him and then he'll decide not to do it and give himself at the same period of time to see how that feels and then he said at the end of that process he's got real clarity of his decision yeah well I can sort of relate to that and I think the media work was very important then because then I enjoyed doing that. I enjoyed analysing the games before having, because I wanted to do it properly.

19:18So as Jake will know, you spend a lot of time then planning and preparing the teams you're going to watch. So you can give good feedback, hopefully, to the people that are watching. So then that stoked my fire on different levels and it helped me with a lot of what I was doing then later on with the work. And what came next in your work? So then the podcast and books. so I loved the Sir Clive Woodward podcast with you guys I was fascinated by him and I'd met Sir Clive a few times he did a presentation for my players at Bournemouth and the Paul McGinley book that you kindly sent me which had a couple of unbelievable quotes on there and sections in his book if anyone hasn't read that then please do it's about the Ryder Cup and his uh the way he formulated his team to try and win that card remember what stood out to you from from Paul's but oh god you're testing my memory now i can't remember which one it was i sent you i think i sent you a picture of of what did this mean because i think there was a quote next to a rock or a mountain or something yeah yeah yeah yeah you're right do you remember that it was um it was about the storm will come yeah he basically he had a in his book he had a thing on the wall didn't he and it was it was an image of a huge cliff face and the sea hitting it and he was basically saying his players like expect the storm the storm will come but knowing we talk about this a lot on the podcast you know if you can expect it you can accept it and it stops in that case golf golfers in your case footballers from being derailed from the storm when it arrives yeah and that probably resonated me from where i was in my life at that moment so i was intrigued by by that and then you sent me the book and i thought the book was absolutely brilliant um so the podcast and and reading books because it was at the time with covid as well so i couldn't always get out about like i i'd want to so then i had to seek learning from home i think that was improving me was was massive and as I say a lot of the you know I went abroad as well I went to Spain twice I went to Denmark did one national team visit and also spoke to some former managers as well so I spent a lot of time out and about when I could with COVID speaking to the people that I felt would would help me.

21:22Eddie Howe: And on a personal level Eddie what did you learn during this period about yourself as as a partner and a parent? Well one of my sections on there was my family and naturally when you've been in work like I had been a committed to my work I mean the commitment it takes not just from a physical perspective as in not being at home but even when you are home as you both know that that mental someone's talking to you but you're not taking in or you're thinking and planning of something else while someone's asking you a valid question at home or you're not really there a lot of the time and I felt I wasn't so I was like right I'm going to use this time to really be at home and one of the first things I did and you'll think this is probably a bit of a crisis moment i brought a camper van so i thought right i'm gonna take this camper van sorry around the country with my kids and i'm really going to give them the time and we did and we went on a few trips and it was it was really really good and i think it's something i look back on with huge um fondness really yeah so i remember some wet weekends in different places but but brilliant for me at that time and hopefully brilliant memories for my kids as well and what did you notice about your relationship with the kids well i was able to do things that I'd never done so taking the boys to school picking them up and little things like that that you think it's just amazing I loved it and obviously did wear off but I loved it I loved being that dad I took them to cricket matches I stayed away from football but yeah so I really invested in their lives I was there for parents evenings and stuff things I'd never been I think that the big thing is where I got my coaching fix and this is quite interesting the only coaching I did in my time out from beginning to end was with my boys in the garden.

23:06So I was actually getting a little fix, developing them and thinking of drills, you know, with three boys in the garden.

23:12Eddie Howe: And how did they respond to their dad doing that? Terribly. Was there any element? Because, you know, when we spoke, you said you were quite strict about this being a year out of the game. And I think some job interviews or some job opportunities came your way in that year. why would you not have been tempted after seven or eight months to say you know what i've had seven or eight months of this i know i said it would be a year but i'm going to go early go back in early what why did you turn down big jobs to fulfill an entire 12 months because i i again it wasn't well it was a conscious decision i'm gonna have a year and i told everyone that needed to know it was going to be a year and i wasn't going to break that for anything um was it important to tell people so they can hold you to what it was if you've got an agent going around going go for this interview go for that interview and i'm saying no he needed to know now you're still trying but of course of course but i was adamant and i think i just i knew i needed it like the biggest mistake i could have made i believe is going straight back into another job that would have been disaster not just for me but for the club because I wasn't I knew I had to leave at the end of that season because I think it was a two week break because of COVID so two weeks the lads were back in for pre-season training and I wasn't there mentally I would not have been the manager that Bournemouth needed me to be but if that was the case for Bournemouth that was the case for anyone else so I just needed to get away So remind me regarding Bournemouth did you did you quit that job or was it kind of a mutual decision it was a mutual decision We had had such a good relationship and such an unbelievable time together.

24:52We sat down and, you know, I discussed my feelings and it was mutual.

24:56Eddie Howe: Would you have stayed if you'd have stayed up? No, I think it was time. Yeah, I think I knew that season that it had taken every ounce of energy out of me to try and keep the team up. And yeah, it was sort of a moment in my head that I just knew. Hard decision that though, isn't it, when football's your life? Yeah, it's a hard decision with football usually life and also their club. You know, Bournemouth was my life. But I always felt in my heart that I had to do what was right for Bournemouth, not for me, which was absolutely true at the time. I was thinking of both sides of it, not just mine.

25:35So do you think, given your relationship and your history with Bournemouth,

25:40Eddie Howe: you carried maybe a heavier burden than maybe you felt at Burnley or even coming here to Newcastle? I think, yeah, I understand the question. I think it's my history with Bournemouth and my history not just with the club, but with the town and everything. Yeah, I'm not sure if burden is the right word, but definitely my time there was intertwined with everything. You know, my kids are in the academy, so I'm sort of leaving training after probably a 12-hour day to go and then watch them in the academy and help the coaches in the academy. and so you're not getting back to sort of nine o 'clock at night and you're doing that near enough every day.

26:18So it was, yeah, I'm not sure burden's the right word, but it's almost like, yeah, it was all encompassing. But I suppose the reason I ask is that you're describing this break

26:28Eddie Howe: almost as a grieving period and in many ways understanding the depth and the strength of that relationship, it makes it more understandable than maybe at another club. Yeah, I don't want to overplay it, but that's just how I felt at the time. you know so you can only sort of express how you felt and that that's how i felt at the time and that's why probably i was a strong on the year because i needed that time to fully come full circle and then be ready to go again and how did you know when you were ready uh probably the harder i worked uh on everything that i've already discussed so the harder i was i was a couple of hours a day at the start i'm just going to write this training session down to probably three four hours a day to five six to seven eight and then almost it was up doing that and then that was all I was doing so that was when I knew I'm like why am I doing this you know I'm doing this because I want to get back in and when I get back in I want to be I want to be good and were you doing this on your own or was anyone helping you process your thoughts and your feelings and well that was difficult because my coaching team that are with me now in Newcastle were in jobs and working.

27:39So I was sort of on my own. Now that's not to say I didn't have support. I did have brilliant support from, you know, my wife and my family around me. But in terms of football people, I was alone, which I actually, in hindsight, I think that was a good thing because it just took me right away. I had no one else to sort of, you know, to, to, to wind to or moan to it was a case of no just get your head around it and go again and then an opportunity comes up and it is a newcastle united can you explain to us the process of how how the job came to be yeah i can um so i'm just trying to think if there's anything before no so it ended up being a basically interview by zoom so with the time that it was so um a lot of people on a on a zoom call and yeah that's sort of your your time to show why you want the job why you okay why you think you're capable of getting the job what you will do with the team your vision and it said you know zoom's a very difficult platform i think to do that because you're you can't give off your personality as well as you can when you're with people so i just tried to be very honest i tried to be very true to what how i work and and what i would do with the team and my philosophies around everything that I didn't present anything digitally it was all through word of mouth and yeah then you wait and see what what they think what was the one message about you and what you were going to bring to the job and how how you had grown in that period out of the game because you know football judges people that aren't working right why have you had a year out it's seen as a negative not a positive so what message did you give the management here at that point?

29:22It's very much viewed as a negative. I think that time away is almost always been away. It's almost a view that no one wants you, which wasn't the case. And I think sometimes, as I say, respecting that time that people have, I think it's actually a strength, not a weakness. But anyway, my unique selling point, if you want to call it that, what I think I do best is coach and develop players. So I was very strong that if I'm able to manage the team and the club, then I will continue to coach and develop players that will never go from my DNA. That's something I believe so passionately about, and I think I'm good at it.

30:04So that was my main push. And then, of course, around that is the style of football and how I see the team playing and what style of football I want to bring to Newcastle. that's fundamental to the board and to the supporters, what they're going to see, what product they're going to watch. When you're applying for a job as a head coach here,

30:25Eddie Howe: what kind of questions are they throwing at you? Well, of course, they want to know about you, the person. They want to have an understanding of your nature because they're going to have to deal with you on a very strong level in loads of different things, transfers and staff. are you going to fit the city? Are the supporters going to take to you? There's so many things that they need to know about you. And they need to know if you're strong enough, big enough, able enough to come in and fulfill that role. And this is why from the times that I went away and spoke to people, those impressions, those first impressions that you give off and what you say is so important, But I find there's no scripts you can ever write.

31:14It has to come sort of off the cuff, really. It has to come from you and come from your heart. If you're sat there reading something you've prepared, I think you're going to fail. So it's got to be natural to you. So I just spoke about, as I say, everything that I really, really believe in strongly.

31:30Eddie Howe: I'm intrigued then in terms of when you're presenting, so you're going back on your track record of success at Bournemouth. And that seems to me like you can tell a story of how you took over a team at a low ebb and how you developed and you coached players to get right the way through to the Premier League. But there was almost no expectation on you. Whereas here they're interviewing you for a job where you're coming in with new owners, there's a huge fan base, there's a huge level of expectation. How did you answer those concerns that they would have had to make them feel confident to hang you the reins?

32:06Yeah, that's a very good question. That's why you're the best, Damien. with questions like that.

32:10Eddie Howe: Can you just repeat that? I think, you know, you obviously don't know my personality that well from behind the scenes, but I put so much pressure on myself that no one out on the outside can put more pressure on me. So, what I mean by that is at Bournemouth, I had such high expectations of me and the team and I felt we could really, even when we got to the Premier League, everyone was like, well, Premier League, now you're going to come get straight relegated first year. Bournemouth can't survive in the Premier League. And I was like, no, no, we're surviving the Premier League and we do well in the Premier League.

32:44So that expectation, although everyone maybe had, you know, Bournemouth's expectations here, mine were here and that never changed. So then when you, yes, you, from the outside, you're perceived to get more expectations, but really all that matters is what you see and what your team around you see. And I still see that same elevated viewpoint that I've always seen. and I remember at the time we were on air I think the day before you what was the game where you came and you sat in the away end before you got the job before it was announced but everyone thought it was a Brighton game yeah but until that point Una Emery was the man who was being linked with this job wasn't he how do you deal with that when you know that a football club are also speaking to someone else and might have even had a first choice if you like who didn't take the job how quickly do you and how do you process that and move on because I know a lot of people who listen to this podcast that's what they struggle with the comparison with other people or you know where do i sit in a pecking order in the business or in life don't worry about it you know that was very can i control it no i can't control if they choose someone else um so if i can't control it don't waste energy on it um i understood if there was someone else that they wanted ahead of me and someone with unai's track record and managed in europe etc of the job that he's done at other clubs, I was like, do you know what?

34:05I'd probably make the same decision if I was them. So I had no issues with it at all. And then they came back and yeah, the rest is history. So I'm not never, look, I do believe in fate to a degree. I do believe that some things are meant to be and if it was meant to be, it was, you know, it was going to happen. And what's that moment like when the answer is yes? How quickly does your brain start saying to you, blimey, I hope you can carry this job, this is big the stadium's big the expectation's big you know these fans have been through the mill the last few years how how how quickly did that appear if at all and how did you deal with it straight away straight away yeah there's no there's no no real celebration or honeymoon period in my head it's almost like right what are we going to do straight away what are we going to do how are we going to keep this team in the Premier League and then all the work you've done previously going back to that all the preparation I've done was for that moment right I know what I'm going to do because it's all planned.

35:04It's all prepared.

35:04Eddie Howe: I'm interested in when you said that review of your own period outside of the game that you found it a little bit more difficult to focus on what you did well. Your instinct was to look at what could I improve? What could I do better? To drive confidence and that self-belief that Jake's talking about, you need to almost catch people doing things right rather than catch them doing it wrong. So how do you overcome that inherent bias in yourself not to focus on the good stuff? what kind of tips or techniques do you get to catch people doing these things well to build confidence? I think two things.

35:41I think with myself, I'm more naturally hard on myself. I've always been that way, but I think that's, people can view that as a weakness, but I think it's a strength. I'm always looking to improve me rather than going on like, great. So I think that's a strength. But with other people, say with my players, I'd always look at, right, you do this great, but I think you can improve this. So I've sort of the other way around with other people. Players have to believe that you love them. Players are only going to play for you to their best levels if you have that trust between you. The manager loves me.

36:16The manager loves the qualities that I can bring, but he does want me to improve these couple of areas of my game to make me even better. And that's very much how I view my players.

36:24Eddie Howe: So tell us about that small word you use there, trust, because that fascinates me in so many ways because lots of people talk about a manager needs the trust of a dressing room. How do you interpret trust and how do you build it and develop it? Well, I think trust is a two-way thing. I don't think the manager can purely trust his players. And I think that there has to be a two-way thing. I think ultimately, as the manager, I think you have to set that. You have to set your boundaries with the players. You have to be very clear of what you expect. there can be no grey areas in terms of behaviour in terms of expectations on the training ground I think once you set those boundaries the players will either fall into it or they'll fall out of it and if they fall out of it then the trust is broken if they fall into it then I think you'll have a great relationship and how many chances do players get with you to get it right I think there's I think it depends on what it is in a sense of what they may have done wrong I do believe in second chances.

37:29I do believe in helping and educating players and trying to guide them. Because you've got to look at them as your son. I try and treat them as my sons, really, rather than as players. What would I do if this was my son sat in front of me now? How would I treat him? Would I give him a second chance? Yes, I would. And I try and educate him, help him as to why he's done wrong or why I think he needs help in that area of his life. Yeah, that's the view I try and take. now if a player is making a conscious decision to go against what you're trying to do I think that's a totally different thing yeah and that's where a line might have to be drawn have you had to deal with that I think my career yeah yeah say thousands of times a lot of times yeah because it's human nature I think you're always going to get conflict in a team of 25 players when you can only pick 11 and then obviously then you have substitutes on that there's going to be moments of conflict and confrontation um so yeah and that old alex ferguson quote don't go looking for it

38:25Eddie Howe: it'll come and find you comes to mind there so i'm interested for anyone listening to this that they might see confrontation in their life or something that needs to be addressed quickly what hints and tips would you give about doing that effectively to be able to address the issue and then move on? I would say as I've got older, I've definitely taken more of a leaf out of Sir Alex's book where I haven't seeked it. And I do believe that players will always show you if they want to be with you or not. You don't have to push. I think probably when I was younger in my early stages of my management career, I would go looking for conflict and confrontation.

39:07Not necessarily to prove anything, but I almost wanted to find the solution straight away. But sometimes you can actually gain more from stepping back and allowing things to work out okay or then having to deal with the problem that is in front of you. I think that's the better approach. But I think ultimately nothing beats a very honest conversation. Nothing beats the truth. So you've disappointed me and this is why. So you either change or you come on board.

39:41Eddie Howe: So some of your playing career, in fact, I know your playing career was cut sharp through injury. But when you look back on that period, how would you have liked to have been coached by you? Oh, that's a good question. Would I have liked me? I don't know. I think I would have done. I think I would have done. I think I would have liked that personal touch. I would like that one-to-one coaching because you think you've got 22 players running around on a football pitch. It's very easy to just look at the team and forget the individual within the team. But everyone's at different stages of their career.

40:12Everyone is different things. So I think I'd have loved the care and attention and then the self-improvement to follow that up. On those early one-to-one sessions, what was the most valuable question that you asked the players, the one that taught you the most about what you were about to step into? I don't think there was anything from a football level. I think it was more their background. So whether it's brothers, sisters, children, mom or dad, I think they're the conversations that you learn the most about the person and their motivations and why they're here. There's always a story, whether it's the three brothers and we're in the garden all day and that's how I became a footballer and I was the youngest or I was a lonely child.

40:57Whatever their story is, I think it's fascinating to hear it. I'm sort of now asking that question then thinking of my own kids. Because when you become a father, I think that was a massive change for me in my life. And I think I'd love to think I've become a better manager since becoming a dad as well. And you have players here with challenging upbringings, challenging backgrounds. You know, we talk often that something that's not your fault, it's still your responsibility. There'll be a lot of players here that carry baggage that isn't their fault, but actually it's their and your responsibility to help them with that.

41:29So do you manage the players differently depending on what you learn about their background? Definitely. I think you have to. I can't treat all 25 players the same. Because as you said, they've all had different backgrounds. They've come from different countries. Their experiences in life and in sport are so different. And their personalities are different. That's obvious. So then you have to treat one person differently to the next to get the best out of them, but also for them to feel safe in the environment that you're trying to create. And I think having that understanding, as I said, being a dad myself, has then helped me so much with that.

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44:34Eddie Howe: Do you get the players to share their stories with each other as well? And the reason that I'm asking this is when we interviewed Sia Khaleesi, the South African rugby captain, he said that those exercises of sharing their own stories with each other were like a catalyst to build deeper relationships, stronger bonds that he felt was the springboard for them to go on and win the World Cup? Yeah, we do. So as part of our fine system, we have a sort of a weekly meeting or once every two weeks now, where one player from the squad will then tell his story. Now, one of the first things I did was tell mine to the group.

45:15So first coming in, I thought, well, if I'm going to set this as part of what we do, I've got to lead from the front and do it myself. And I actually found it quite emotional to do that. So you go back and you tell things that you think are relevant and what people need to know about you. And we've had some brilliant stories, some brilliant talks by the players. And you find out so much stuff that even from a conversation between me and you now, I could never, you could never tell me stuff. But then in that format, it's almost the players want to tell their story and they're telling things that are very personal to them.

45:45But I do believe it brings you closer together. And also it gives you an understanding if someone's having a bad day, there might be a reason why he's having a bad day. and to ask the right questions.

45:55Eddie Howe: And what's the atmosphere like in the room when that's happening? Yeah, you could hear a pin drop. Everyone's very respectful and understanding that it's going to be their turn at some stage. So give the person all the support that they can. And now we've had some really good ones. And I'd like to talk about your personal experience then of being the Newcastle manager. You know, we're here at the stadium, it's massive. The city, as you've already said, everywhere you are in the city, you see this stadium. How does that sit with any imposter syndrome that you have floating around? I don't know.

46:27The first day you walk out of St. James' Park and everyone, here's Eddie Howe, the saviour, going to keep us up. Well, actually the first day I didn't because I got COVID. Oh yeah, yes. Couldn't believe it. I definitely forgot about that. Yeah, couldn't believe it. I was like, oh my God. So when did you realise that you, when did you test positive and realise that you couldn't be here for the first game? The day before. On the Friday, yeah. So any other time would have been fine. But just that day meant that obviously I had to miss out. So I was in the hotel hearing a delayed noise from the crowd where there was a goal.

47:00We drew three also. There was a load of goals. That was a tough experience. No, but I haven't really felt that imposter syndrome. And I don't mean that in an arrogant way. I just felt very comfortable here. I felt welcomed by everybody, welcomed by the staff, welcomed by the supporters, welcomed by the players. And I've really, really enjoyed what is a very difficult job, a high-pressure job, but I've enjoyed that to this point and I'm very thankful for everyone for that. How do you square away that at Bournemouth, you had earned a lot of credit in the bank at that football club, whereas here you're at one of the richest clubs in the world?

47:43I think we'd all agree the reality is six bad results and maybe less and the question marks come and maybe even the job goes, how do you not let that overwhelm you? Yeah, good question. I think by not overanalyzing and thinking too deeply because I don't think that's healthy. Again, I think I've learned that through the years to focus on what you can control. So I can control the training. I can control the players to a degree. I could control all the things around the team performance in the way that I can. And if I focus on that and make sure that's as good as it can be while doing loads of other, obviously different things, motivation and treating people in the right way, that's all you can do.

48:28But the minute you start thinking, what if negative things happen, you'll project fear. And projecting fear to players is a very dangerous thing. They've got to enter that pitch believing in everything you've delivered. It's never a pressure-free job. um one thing that struck me and i wasn't offended by this by the way but when we spoke on the phone you were listening to the podcast religiously when i saw you at norwich and i went what's your what's your latest episode of high performance you went i've stopped listening now now i don't mind right you do a bit i'm seriously pissed off no but the point i'm trying to make i suppose is that you were in a really like you were in a growth space right in that year out is there a way that you can be in a growth space but also in a pressure space here or are you too committed and too all in and i suppose really what i'm trying to say is are you able to do this job and enjoy doing this job like in a weird way i do enjoy it but it's not in a you don't necessarily feel that enjoyment every minute it's sort of sometimes reflective enjoyment comes two weeks after something's happened i really enjoyed that two weeks ago but at the time you sort of you don't necessarily feel that um the reason i haven't listened to the podcast is not because i don't love it anymore and i do in there there is definitely learning to take from the various guests i hope someone finds something interesting for this um but it's you just have to prioritize what you're doing so i'm prioritizing loads of different things and then you you find your time and the day is just gone and then you're you're doing that obviously every day and you You just, you have to prioritise.

50:00So I apologise for that. I'm interested in what you said about that 12-year period at Bournemouth

50:06Eddie Howe: where you almost didn't get a chance to develop yourself because it was so frenetic. How were you going to give yourself some space and time to still develop yourself while going back into the fray of management? When I say I didn't develop myself, that was, yeah, not entirely accurate. I probably would say I did more for my development probably than most managers are able to do. But just because I sort of push myself every sort of break, I'd be here and everywhere trying to seek more growth and learning. But it's obviously more difficult in work. And I'd say it's more difficult the higher profile club you're at because more doors are shut on you than if you're in the lower leagues.

50:49So that's something I just have to deal with. and yeah, somehow keep on top of things.

50:57Eddie Howe: Can I ask you a question personally about, I didn't get a chance to ask when we were talking about taking on this job. When do you start the conversations with your wife and your children that so you're in the interview process, but when do you start to almost sow the seed with them that we might be leaving our base here and going somewhere else? How does that process happen? Yeah, so again, another good question. I mean, quite loosely because there's no guarantee of anything. So you might say, oh, I'm just having a chat with this club. And there's sort of an understanding that that's happening.

51:31But with no guarantees or promises and literally then click of the fingers, right, I'm off. It's literally like that because there's no other, you know, I'm going. And obviously you have discussion that I want to get back in and we might have to move. And you obviously come to a shared agreement that you would, you know, I'd be supportive of that. in there but the actual moment that it comes is very quick and sudden and then suddenly I'm the other side of the country and making plans then for them to join me and once your family are up here with you now how is how hard do you find the switching on and off when you're at work or at home I think I've got better at it but yeah it's difficult um I think I love to be there for my for my boys I love to be present when they're when they need you usually in the garden with a football which means you can never escape the game but that you know you wouldn't have it any other way but yeah I try to be there and I try to be there with my wife and I think I've got better at that I'd love to think I've got better at that as I've got a holder but it's still a challenge for me because I am ultimately very committed to my work and in a job like this I can imagine that

52:35Eddie Howe: the ability to delegate is even more demanding or more even even more important than it would have been at Bournemouth where maybe you had a grasp on more aspects what have you learned about the art of delegation that listeners could take on well yeah I'd say the art of delegation is massive and I'd say historically for me that's been a big weakness um definitely my early days it was it was well just me and Jason to be honest Jason Tindall um and we did everything and sort of once you get accustomed to that that's the normal way of working so it's two people doing everything you've got to remember we had nothing the resources we had at Bournemouth in our early days formed us but we had nothing so we were taking on all sorts of different things scouting whatever there is, sports science we were doing a lot so that's been really good for us but then the job changes you get more staff and you end up at much bigger resources but you're still acting like there's just two of you So that's been a weakness of mine because of that process, really.

53:38So it's something that I'm learning to do better as I get older again. I think it's something I need to do even more of. I need to give more trust and accountability to other people. But I've sort of become very hands-on and I'm reluctant to lose that hands-on approach. There's certain things that I can't hide from here. So media duties and all the other things you have to do, which means then your time's pulled. so you need to give. What part of the job sits least comfortably with you? I think anything that's not with my players is not viewed as a negative by me but for me the main attraction to the job is the grass, the balls, the coaching, the players, the improvement, the analysing, preparing and then doing, you know, that whole process I love.

54:25Anything around that is almost a bit of a distraction from that so it's making sure those distractions don't take you away from what I believe is at the core of success really. And what is the part of your job that is misunderstood the most? The element of management that we just should know and you'd love to share with us? Yeah, probably the effect that you can have, I think. I think it can be underestimated, the effect you can have on the team, on the individual players, I think. And that's why I'm so passionate about trying to have interaction with my players on a daily basis. I don't like going through a day where I don't really feel I've spoke to them or impacted them, whether that be on the training pitch or off the training pitch.

55:04Because I think you have to be viewed as, the players probably wouldn't like this, but as a mentor or a father figure or whatever people want to bracket it. I think you've got to be important in their lives for them to play their best football. I don't like being a distant, unrelatable, not contactable, don't speak to him type figure. That's not how I would manage or how I really think the job should be done. I think it's a collaboration rather than a dictatorial type process.

55:33Eddie Howe: So in the books, Sockonomics, I think it was a guy called Stefan Szymanski and Simon Cooper estimated that a head coach impacts between 10 and 20 % of a team's performance and then the rest of it is all other extraneous stuff. What percentage do you think you can affect the team's performance? That is a tough one, Damien, but I'm going to say a little bit more than that. just because you've given me a number so i'll go 30 i really don't know but um i do believe i do believe and it's not just me by the way i'm not just saying i'm the only one that can affect i'm saying my coaching team sports science team physio team everyone connected with the club can have an impact on the players kit man you know the people that are there having contact with the players i think can help shape a mindset and a mood and a feeling that can that can linger be on the day so i think we have to be very mindful of that when we're when we're dealing with the players and who coaches you that's a good question i think obviously my main pillar of support is my wife um she's the one that on a bad result or a bad day will text me will be there for me and there's very few other people that are sort of there you know when it's when it's really bad you know when you've had a really bad day and i think you sort of know that again as you get older you you you sort of know the people that are there for you truly and the people that aren't and i think they're they're incredibly important i'm always interested in this what's the kind of hidden cost of of your job i think it's the missed things that the days you miss the moments you miss that you don't get back so i missed both my kids birthdays this year i'll say both because my younger one had his in march and i was so there for that i think i might missed all of them i think i've missed all yeah i've missed all three this year so they're opening presents and you've got a camera there and you're looking at oh that's really nice but you've got other things yeah you've got training to prepare that day so you never get that moment back you know the sports days i don't think i've seen a sports day i don't think i've seen loads of other parents evenings i'm very rarely there so that's why the timeout was really good for me because i was in all those things that i'd never been i was able to experience that with my kids and i have to say they're very very good with me they never sort of accused me of but you weren't here or they I think they have an understanding that well they're proud of their dad managing Newcastle now and they sort of accept there's a little bit that they miss because of that but they've been very good with me is there a question we should have asked you and that we haven't no I'm barely remembering what you are asking me yeah like what you haven't so no I think you've been very good and what about on your notes so those notes that you made in your year out is there anything else you'd really like to share with the audience?

58:21So I think there was one thing and it was more of a mindset for me really put down here to be grateful. So what I remember reading the book Magic by Rona Byrne, I think it is, and it's sort of similar lines to The Secret. And I thought it was a brilliant book. And just at that moment, this was about I think three months after I left Bournemouth, It was to be thankful for what I'd achieved there and thankful for the journey that we went on rather than looking at it just purely for the last part. To be thankful for everything that happened beforehand and just to be thankful for everything in my life.

58:59I consider myself very lucky, very fortunate. And yeah, I'm very grateful. Are you kind enough to yourself? Probably not, no. But it's got me to this point. So something in that attitude that I have where I'm constantly demanding myself to improve, I'm constantly on myself. not to be lazy. I'm sort of the opposite of lazy. I'm always doing, but I like that about myself. So I probably wouldn't change, but I think it's just tweaking to try and enjoy things moments more would be the challenge I have. How often do you slip? You're demanding on yourself. You want to achieve a lot in a day, but no one's flawless.

59:42Yeah, I'd say it's more for my players. So the thing will be in the morning when you're planning the day, it'll be like, I'm not happy with this. Players aren't getting enough development or they're not getting enough from me or from you or from you. We need to give them more. Do I slip from that? I don't feel I slip from that mindset. Of course, then what you'll deliver sometimes will be better than other days. That wasn't a great day today. We need to analyse what went wrong there. That was a really good day today. Well done. So it's always for the players. We're going to run through our quickfire questions.

1:00:16and this is an interesting one with the players you've recruited with the staff that work in here with you know the people who are no longer on the on the journey with you the three non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you have to buy into quite basic if i can remember them if i can't i'll have to go to my notes uh and i have uh bear in mind i've presented this to my players so of tobacco podcast this is one of my first meetings i had with them i i recommended they listen to it so i sat them down i said high performance podcast both your faces at the front and I said listen to this podcast it's amazing and I said they got this section on their three non-negotiable behaviors and these are my three so you understand me more always give your best very basic I can't remember the second one get them up I knew that would happen oh yeah be willing to learn and improve and put the interests of the team before your own personal interest did you ever ask for theirs well jacob murphy who listens to your podcast as well um he gave me his don't ask me to remember them but yes a couple of them came back nice wow what advice would you give to a teenage eddie just started out well i'm going to contradict myself with my answer here so i would say back off yourself a little bit and enjoy it a bit more go easy on yourself but as we said earlier that's enabled me to get to this position which when you consider where I was at 16 I would never have believed it possible what I've done in my life so I'm not sure if that's the right advice but almost along the way just just try and take it in and enjoy it a

1:01:54Eddie Howe: bit more but do you think you could have got to the same place if you'd have been a little bit kind of no right i i honestly don't know about to push and work and sacrifice to get here and i don't think i could have done it another way i you know i totally resonate with that because i spend my life watching people achieve great things thinking up i hope you enjoy the moment you know make the most of it but i totally think i don't know what you think from the people you've met and the researchers out there like if you spend your time really enjoying those moments i do think it takes away from you're not the kind of person that's driven to get to the next one you know it's like one or the other everything everything has a like a balance right there's a payoff for everything yeah no i think i think it's in i don't think there's a right or wrong answer is it i think that's the point i don't think i just don't think there's loads of high achievers going around you're going you know i'm just enjoying every minute of every day and i don't think it gets there by accident yeah i don't think it's high performance isn't an accident but I don't think there's one set route to get there.

1:02:59But there is like an algorithm, I think, to success, you know, where you realise the level of dedication, the level of detail. We call them world-class basics, you know, like not hard, difficult things to achieve, easy things that everyone can do every day that takes everyone closer, you know.

1:03:15Eddie Howe: Yeah, but I think like if you think about like, if you take two people that got to the same destination, Johnny Wilkinson and Dan Carter, in the interview, Johnny spoke about sacrifice and struggle to get to become the world's best rugby player. Dan Carter spoke about the joy of just being with his mates and throwing the ball around and loving rugby and having the gratitude that Eddie described. So they both got to the same place. Yeah, but Dan Carter breaks his day down into 10 second blocks and sets himself a challenge for everything. Like, you know, that's also an exhausting way to live your life, by the way, I think, you know.

1:03:47Eddie Howe: Yeah. I don't think there's one, I don't think there's one definitive answer we're looking for. I'm definitely more on the Johnny side of things. Whereas if I think if I'd had the other outlook, I would have been well short of what I needed to be. Really? What's your biggest strength and what's your greatest weakness? I think my biggest strength is my work ethic. My biggest weakness is... Do you think there's a chance you're too hard on yourself? Yeah, well, yeah, possibly that. Possibly, yeah. But as I say, from that hardness drives a, then a plan to try and improve what I consider the weakness.

1:04:23Eddie Howe: If you could go back to one moment in your life, what would it be and why? Yeah, I thought about this earlier because I knew this one was coming and I'm going to give two answers. I'm going to go back to before I was injured. So playing for Portsmouth, I lasted two games and it was a big injury and it ruined my career. I was never the same player after. So I wouldn't mind doing something different before that moment and giving myself a chance to have a different playing career. but then this wouldn't have happened afterwards so i've got to be careful what i wish for there the second one would be definitely a chance to speak to my mum before she passed away and to just tell her how grateful i was for everything she did for me that was nice just going to pick you up on the the point about um the injury yeah it's a really good lesson I think this for lots of people to hear that you know sometimes the things that are the hardest in your life actually can lead to the the greatest moments in your life am I right in saying that the energy that you have every single day now probably comes from the the pain of your career being cut short yeah possibly yeah I mean I definitely think I wouldn't have ended up navigating my way like I did through the early part of my management career and I think that was fundamental to forming the manager I am now.

1:05:40You know, the fact that I was thrust into it at 31 and the situation that we faced, there's so many good lessons there for me, you know, in terms of making the best out of no resources, galvanizing the players in a sort of a journey, them against us type attitude. It was brilliant, brilliant learning for me, which I didn't really know at the time, but that came from having your career cut short. and having nowhere else to turn other than form a new career based on the sport you love. So really looking back, yeah, the injury was, I think, a fortunate thing for me in the end. And talking about your mum, when you reflect on all the things that she did for you over the years, what did she get right in terms of parenting that's stood you in such a good state?

1:06:26Great question. I think she just enabled me to express myself with no boundary, no fear. If you want to be a footballer, that's your dream go for it if you want to be something else go for it i'll back you whatever you want to do those types of messages um which i didn't know at the time you sort of want someone i felt i wanted someone to go well do this you go okay but the actual freedom to choose was everything and then once once you have that and you have a childhood that's just full of positive memories and laughter and playing. I think you got a good chance then to have a good life. And you didn't get a chance to say thanks for all that, no?

1:07:13Well, I don't feel I did. You know, my mum would know how I feel about her, but, you know, there's so many things when someone's gone that you think, ah, just wish I had. You know, I was managing Burnley at the time, and even when she was ill, I was travelling up and back, and not really, I don't think at that stage, fully understanding the situation that I should have been by her bedside. But I think she knew I had a job to do and I think she would embrace that and want me to do it. But still part of you then feels not right for not behaving differently. And obviously you know that that can't be changed, but there are still people in your life who you must always remember to get that bit right with.

1:07:55You don't want any more of those regrets. Well, I think that's why life is an amazing way of teaching you things you shouldn't, shouldn't have done. And I think when you've experienced that for the first time, it certainly teaches you a valuable lesson. And the final question, your last message really for people that have listened to this enlightening conversation about life in management, your one golden rule for a high performance life. Oh, do you know what? I've forgotten about the golden rule. I think that the golden rule for me would be to learn and to learn by, like I have, I feel, learn from mistakes, learn from failures and embrace those failures, which sometimes can be very difficult to do.

1:08:34but embrace them for for positives because they ultimately form and shape you and change you in a positive way but I think how you react to those moments so like for me when I finish my playing career it's going to be very easy to go for a different way and relegation of Bournemouth can be very easy to have a different sort of outcome from those things but you have to put them to bed and then you have to grow from them ultimately to I think come again

1:09:03Eddie Howe: Now I love that episode with Eddie It's such a privilege to be invited up to St James' Park And to spend a really rich, rewarding and revealing afternoon with him If this one's landed with you Why not share it with somebody? And if you've not already subscribed Why don't you do that now? So you don't miss what's coming up next As ever, remain humble, curious and empathetic And we'll look forward to seeing you next time On High Performance Thank you.