EXCLUSIVE: Damian reveals how Gareth has created a winning culture at England

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance app. Available now Roman Kemp. The broadcaster opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health.

0:15Hey everyone, welcome along to a very special episode of High Performance. So High Performance is a show where we meet some of the most incredible people on the planet to find out their successes, their struggles, their failures, their lessons along the way. And the show is hosted by me, Jake Humphrey, and an expert in high performing team cultures, my co-host Damian Hughes. Hey, Damien. Hiya, Jake. How are you? It's coming home, maybe. Well, let's hope. Let's hope. What was it like for you watching the game on Wednesday night? Oh, it was brilliant. I think what's nice in the position that we're in, Jake, is that we get to meet these guys.

0:50So there's a little bit of investment in their stories, you know, about the struggles they've been through and the history of what it's taken to get there. So when you see someone like Ollie Watkins having his moment to shine, It feels really, really special. It does. And you will hear a clip in a moment from when Oli Watkins joined us on High Performance. In fact, we interviewed Oli at the Belfry Hotel only a couple of months ago. It was just three or four days before the England squad was announced. And he was, of course, full of confidence. But you could tell there was a slight air of nervousness because Gareth hadn't announced his squad.

1:22And even when he did, he obviously cut that squad down. And the last time that England were at a major tournament, Oli missed out when Gareth made the final cut. So the nervousness or the anxiety maybe around actually playing for his country at this tournament was understandable. And now here we are a few weeks later and he's just scored the goal, one of the most famous goals in the history of English football, to put us into the final of Euro 2024. Damien, I want to know how it felt though for you, because not only have you interviewed Oli and Gareth, and we'll hear from Gareth as well in a moment, but you were actually involved in some of the working groups that England set up ahead of the Euros to try and put the squad in the best possible shape for the tournament, weren't you?

1:58Yeah, so it's been an immense privilege to have been invited into it. The FA were kind enough to ask me to be a member of a technical committee. So it's a group of us that meet once a quarter with Gareth and Serena Viegman, where we just sit and we'll pick up a theme and we'll talk about ideas from industry, different sports, different concepts that might aid them in terms of being able to be successful. So I've been really privileged to be part of that group and to sit and chat with Gareth and some of his coaches around ideas that they've taken into practice and that we can see manifesting themselves out in Germany at the moment.

2:41This is so interesting. And I know naturally you are a bit uncomfortable sometimes talking about this stuff because, you know, it's not your success, it's theirs, right? and we're not trying to claim it's yours, but I know you're also a modest guy. I'll tell the audience the truth that you needed your arm twisting by me a little bit to even tell us that you were on this working group. So what things have been discussed then in that group that you have then seen manifest themselves in the tournament? Yeah, okay. So if I speak about really general principles, so a lot of my insights are often around the culture, creating an environment where everybody can feel that they can thrive.

3:14and there's three main areas to focus on for that. So one is having this really clear sense of purpose, the idea of what are we here for? And as well as winning the European Championships, it's the idea of tapping into this sense of, you know, giving the next generation of football fans something to be really proud of. Then there's something around making people feel that they belong, that they're a part of it, whatever role they play, they have to feel that they're involved in that. And then the third one is having a sense of psychological safety, understanding that mistakes are not terminal.

3:49That, as we say sometimes on the pod, it's a comma rather than a full stop. So take a really simple example that a lot of people would have seen from the shootout against Switzerland last weekend, we were successful in, that the psychologist, Gia Giorda, highlighted it about how England had a buddy system. them now this was an idea that originated in our conversations from the interviews that we'd been lucky enough to do with Dan Carter and Steve Hansen so New Zealand rugby had pioneered this many years ago that in moments of high emotional intensity where your logical brain gets hijacked by the emotions sometimes having a buddy somebody that just takes care of you that can recognize that you've become overcome by events is really important, somebody that you trust.

4:39So that goes into two factors of those three pillars we spoke about. One, it's a sense of belonging, that you know that somebody's got your back and mate's looking after you, regardless of what happens. And then also the psychological safety that you're still valued as a member of the group, whether you succeed from the penalty spot or not. So that's just a really simple example that everybody watching that in the squad understands that for Bakayo Saka and the other four guys that took penalties, that they're safe, that they're still valued, regardless of whether they're successful or not. That allows them to relax psychologically and then go on to autopilot and take the penalty that we saw them do with Suchiplom.

5:23I think it's brilliant that you have a conversation on high performance with Dan Carter. You share it with the working group and then we see it in practice in the Euros. I think that's fascinating. And can I just ask you finally, from the time you spent in this group, what is the kind of message that you were feeling from Gareth about the kind of culture that he wanted to create with England? Not the stuff that we see, not the formation, not the lineups, but what was the sense that he wanted to kind of build among the group? Yeah. So I think the first thing I'd say about being part of this group is that I think it's such a brilliant testimony to Gara, to Serena and to Mark Bullingham as well.

6:02And John McDermott. So Mark's the head of the FA, John's the FA's technical director, that they're just so open to the diversity of opinions. They're not just seeking the ideas from people within the world of football. They're picking ideas from other sports, other industries and other disciplines. so that tells you an awful lot around if people want to go back and listen to the interview we did with matthew syed around cognitive diversity there that gareth and serena are almost textbook examples of people that are doing that but to answer the main question that you had there jake i think it's something around that doing the best you can with what you've got in the moment you're in so winning the european championships is obviously the intention and that's great but we also know that this is a game of fine margins that one of those penalties that miscued people are in a very different conversation on this but i think creating an environment where the players feel that they want to be they feel belong they feel safe and they've got this sense of purpose that then allows them to go and deliver the best of their potential so don't get me wrong there's always a really clear sense of we want to win this but it's also the idea of that we want to do the best that we can to give ourselves a chance of winning it and that's all that any of us can really do and that's why I've become so frustrated with the the critical kind of um narrative around this England team it's like you're focusing on the wrong stuff like you're focusing on the things that we see which is the fact that at times the football's been pragmatic rather than exciting and expansive, but that's not the point.

7:44This is tournament football. This is about creating a culture where those players feel safe enough to play in that way and then at other times to play in an expansive way. You know, it's about the protection Gareth gives them. And would you mind if I just played a quick clip, Damien, from when we sat down with Gareth? I mean, it was a couple of years ago, right? But there was something he said about removing the fear from the players that I think is quite an interesting conversation. So this is Gareth when we sat down for a conversation with him. I remember asking them before the game early on, what are we going to do if we go a goal down?

8:18And there was like a look of horror because it was almost, you never speak about that. You prepare a team to play in every phase of the game, with and without the ball. But as soon as a goal is scored, the game changes. The dynamic of the game changes, the psychology of the game changes. and it's almost like I played in lots of teams that we were really well prepared for while everything was at nil-nil but then when a goal goes in at either end it's up to us and so to actually talk about what are we going to do in those moments and staying calm and then of course you've got lived experiences the longer you're with a team you can refer back to games where look we've been in this position before we've come from behind to win we've led from the front and held the lead we've won in these big matches you can refer to those performances that are really clear pictures in the players' minds I think Now why is that so important?

9:19What happened in the semi-final? They went a goal down What's happened previously in this competition? They've gone a goal down and reacted every time People have spoken about that late Drew Bellingham goal or the fact they've gone through on penalties or the fact that last night their backs were against a wall but winning those games of course is about your ability as a football player But it's also about the culture that's been created that allows you to not panic, that allows you to feel safe, that allows you to still be brave on the ball. Yeah, exactly. So one of the things that I know they have invested a lot of time in is doing premortems, working out what happens when things go wrong.

9:51So if you remember the World Cup special we did before the Qatar World Cup in 2022, we sat down with Rio Ferdinand, Peter Crouch and Joe Cole. and one of the things we asked them was did you prepare for injuries did you prepare for send-ins or for referees making mistakes and all three of them said no we didn't even contemplate that we almost went in thinking that if you know if things go our way we'll be successful so it was that lack of planning that lack of being willing to lean in to talk about those difficult moments that meant when it happened they didn't have the reserves or the resilience to be able to call upon and i think let's give plenty of credit to Gareth here that he's obviously had these conversations internally with the players to say what happens when we go a goal behind let's plan for our response in those moments that you've seen that the resilience that we're lauding that we're celebrating isn't an accident it's there by design and it's been done by being willing to remove fear and have these difficult conversations and uh and we've also had lots of comments from you our lovely listeners.

11:00Loads of comments under the YouTube episode with Gareth Southgate, which you can find by checking out YouTube. Martin says, having belief is essential in elite sports. Ray says, very, very underrated manager and man. I'm convinced we'll look back on his tenure with or without an international trophy as a successful part of England's footballing history. A good man. I think that's important. He is a good man. Jordan says, keep up the great work ethic. The definition of high performance, in my opinion, is consistency, doing it to the best of your potential and consistently performing year in, year out.

11:29Bless you. Great interview with the England manager. And that's one thing that, before we move on and talk about Ollie Watkins, that we should point out, Damien, this is our second final in a row. This is our third semifinal in the last four years. This isn't luck or a fluke. This is a pattern. This is a winning England team. Yeah, it is. And I think it's worth bearing in mind that we often talk about the hedonic treadmill. People often suffer this when they buy the house of their dreams very quickly. It then becomes just the norm of what we expect. So then everything that we once thought was amazing, we take for granted.

12:00And I think that's what we've seen a little bit in this tournament, that what Garrett's done is unprecedented in English football history. And I think people are taking it for granted. And therefore the qualities that we lauded when he came in eight years ago were being decent, kind, acting with humility, putting the team first. People almost set that for granted and then they say, oh, but it's boring or we're not playing well. and yet we'd have given our eye teeth to have had a track record like you've just described. So I think it's important sometimes to look back on where we've come from to understand where we are and appreciate the journey that has taken place.

12:39Brilliant. Right, let's talk Oli Watkins. We've had some lovely messages actually from you, our wonderful high performance listeners. Martin says, having belief is essential in elite sport and Oli has grasped the importance of knowing he has the mindset of a Premier League player now Thomas said, towards the end of your conversation with Oli, you ask, do people still underestimate you? And absolutely they do. The weeks leading up to the Euros, the expert pundits were throwing around. If Southgate only takes two strikers, will it be Oli or Tony? The disrespect to not automatically say that someone who's over 30 goal contributions this season deserves to be in the squad is ridiculous.

13:13Well, look, he's proved a lot of people wrong throughout his whole career. He's done the same at this tournament. Lots of people are saying, where did Oli Watkins' newfound belief come from? And we think that in the conversation with us on high performance that he told us where this belief came from. Yeah, definitely. So let's listen to him explain the moment against Arsenal when he really felt he belonged. So I'd like to know the moment that you actually felt like you belonged in the Premier League. Can you remember that? I scored against Arsenal last year. There was a moment where I was one-on-one with Saliba and I did a step over and scored.

13:49and I kind of did a celebration like I was like pointing to myself saying I'm here I was you know you get carried away in your celebrations but I actually that's when the belief kind of kicked in and I was really confident in my own ability and thought yeah I just felt confident and wasn't afraid to admit that you know I deserve to be where I am and I knew from then on I kicked on my mindset changed completely and I wasn't I'm not shocked by the the season that I've had this year because of all the hard work I've put in previously and learnt new things along the way. And like I said, that consistency has got me to where I am today.

14:29Now, this is something you talk about so often, Damien. Success leaves clues. And we often say, well, to be successful, you've got to have self-belief. But it's impossible to have the self-belief until you've had some kind of clue that you've got what it takes. Ollie had the success. They left those clues. Now he believes. And look what self-belief can do for you. I know, yeah. Well, again, one of the other phrases that we frequently use on high performance is that confidence is built on evidence. And I think Oli has looked for the clues. He's found the evidence that he's capable of thriving at international level.

15:02And therefore, he's now got the confidence that when Gareth Southgate throws him on, he can go and thrive. And I think there's an interesting distinction here just to make around the use of the substitutions that Gareth and his team have made. I think Ivan Toney made reference to it in a press conference where internally within the England camp, they don't refer to these guys as substitutes. They refer to them as finishers. The idea that you're coming on to finish the game for us. And people might see that as being a bit twee or think that, like, what difference does that make? But we know very well that names impact the way that we feel about a situation.

15:41There's a famous study that was done where a group of psychiatrists were given a report of a guy displaying dysfunctional behaviours. And when they thought the guy was called Matthew, they thought he was just having a bad day. When the guy was called Wayne, they assumed that he was a bit of a scumbag. So names do impact the way we feel about something. So if it helps the players believe that they're not a substitute for somebody else, but they're a finisher to come on and complete the job for the team, maybe that can play just a small part in the difference that we saw Raleigh and Ivan Toney and the other brilliant guys coming on and making a difference too.

16:19And I love that idea of perception because I think when we keep on questioning Olly Watkins, I think we're questioning him because of the journey that he's taken to get to this point. You know, he was rejected at a top club as a kid for being unable to concentrate. He failed twice to gain promotion through the playoffs. The second time he was in tears. I think we have to remember he was playing non-league football at 20. That is the same age as Jude Bellingham is now. and Jude Bellingham is playing at Euros for England. Oli was playing for Western Supermair at that time. Didn't make the Euros squad for 2020.

16:51Didn't make the England squad for the World Cup in 2022. It hasn't been the traditional journey of a top flight footballer, right? Where you're in an academy at 12, 13 and you sail all the way through. You know, I think struggle has been part of his journey and we need to realise that struggle is a different side of the same coin as success. You know, struggle isn't the opposite of success, is it? It is part of success. And I think the message that we can all take from Ollie Watkins' journey is no matter where we are on our journey, you know, we are where we're supposed to be. This is part of life.

17:21Everyone's on a different route. And Ollie has somehow managed to make it all the way to the top despite those challenges. And it's been wonderful to see. Where are you watching the final, Damien? I'm going to be at home with the family. I think this is one of these moments where you should be surrounded by your loved ones, if possible, to enjoy watching it. I love how seriously you're taking this, Damien. Be at home with your family, no distractions, enjoy the game. Any last points that you want to make before we wrap up? I think this is a moment where I want to pay homage to the people that are behind the scenes of this England squad.

17:58One of my favourite quotes is that, you know, most people want to be there for the outcome, but the process is where you discover who should be there for the outcome. And I think not only Gareth, Steve Holland, Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank, and there's an incredible array of people that are working tireless hours behind the scenes there in that England camp that have got them to this moment. And I think they should be front and centre along with the players for such a historical moment. And I think it's our job to applaud them and celebrate them and enjoy their hard work and their talent and commitment.

18:31Love it. Look, Damian, we won't be together, but we'll be there in spirit. and Gareth and the whole England set up, the whole nation are behind you. We wish you the very best of luck. And if you would like to listen to or watch our conversations with Gareth Southgate, with Ollie Watkins, then you can find them wherever you get your podcasts. Or of course, you can watch them on YouTube or download the High Performance app. Damien, thanks so much, mate. Come on, England. Thanks, mate. I've really loved doing this reflection and hopefully we can sit down and celebrate the success and talk about that in more detail next time we meet.

19:02Woo-hoo. Thanks, mate. thank you and thanks to you for listening remember stay humble curious and empathetic and we'll see you again soon