Gareth Southgate: The Truth About Managing England

0:02We go to a penalty shootout. For us in that moment it was about the process that gives us the best percentage chance of winning. A friend of ours had looked after the dog and he's thrown up all over the bedroom floor. Now bear in mind the Spanish manager's currently in Madrid on an open top bus. Go over to support the fans that are lobbying beer at me. If the joy's gone then you're going to find it hard to give that feeling that you need to give the players. Sir Gareth Southgate managed England through eight years, four tournaments, two finals, and in the course of it became the most successful England manager since 1966.

0:39But by the end of his tenure, fans were turning on him in the stadiums, the media had decided that he was the problem. His family stayed at home because he didn't want them in those environments. What Gareth shares in this rich, revealing conversation is something that you rarely hear from a leader at that level. He doesn't offer spin or excuses But instead, an honest account of what it costs to hold the line When the crowd has decided it's already moved on He talks about how he managed the voice in his head Why he shared his 1996 penalty miss with his players And the single moment when he realised that the joy of the job had gone It was that moment, more than any result Is what told him it was time to leave This is one of those rich, revealing conversations that just gets better and better every time you come back to it.

1:28I'd like to welcome Sir Gareth Southgate to High Performance.

1:37I'd got to a stage where the FA were very keen for me to stay. They offered me a new contract. I didn't think signing a new contract before the tournament would be a good idea because I'd seen Fabio Capello do that years earlier and it created a tension. well why is he getting a new contract before the tournament it should be after and it actually I thought increased the pressure on the team so okay what will be acceptable performance well that's hard to judge but I knew anything less than winning it and you know we're one of the favourites but still only even as one of the favourites there's a 15 % chance statistically of winning it but if we don't win I just know the narrative will be a desire for change externally and then during that tournament that we didn't play as well as we'd have hoped we couldn't find a rhythm we had players with injuries we had some key players that we lost just before the tournament people like Maguire by the way people who we were criticised for years for playing but have now actually become really important part of how people view the team so then we're in the early stages of the competition the crowd are turning in the stadium and that's now starting to affect the team I felt we're back to the tension in an England game we're back to this sort of sense of entitlement and probably once we play Slovenia again we finish the game, we haven't played well but we've topped the group you go over to support the fans they're lobbying beer at me you're kind of thinking well probably win or lose it's probably the right time to go because further down the line this is just going to ramp pressure on the team and also from a personal perspective the enjoyment from the wins was getting even shorter and shorter even the semi-final against Holland I made changes one sub sets up the other sub to score the winner and it's about as good as it can get as a coach.

3:49We're now in a second final, first final on foreign shores. Celebrate on the pitch, do a ridiculous dad dance on the pitch. Love watching the players celebrate in the dressing room for five minutes and then suddenly I thought, no, no, but I lived all this in the last Euros and three days later, you know, it was carnage. So I was straight on to the next thing. So even the semi-final win, I've probably enjoyed it for eight, nine minutes. And if the joy is gone, then you're going to find it hard to give that feeling that you need to give the players. Probably any leader, it's a long period, eight years.

4:34If you look at leaders in anything, I think people get, I've said in the book, incumbency fatigue or whatever they call it. you know they're ready for change circumstances around the team don't change you know if we're to change your government tomorrow the new government's got all the problems and issues to deal with but people that elected a different government would think there's hope because they're they're hoping for something different whoever's in power but i think that's what happens in football you know there's moments where the support's gone for managers clubs change because they're trying to release the tension and there's hope but actually they've still got the same centre back they've still got the same they've still got no money to spend they're still so you've got to be a wizard to come in and make that very different because a coach is relying on all the other parts of a football club or rugby club or whatever being in a good place to be able to succeed.

5:36But can we go back to that voice in your head at this stage? Because some of this narrative that's building around you is unfair, patently based on the facts of history and decisions you've made in that semi-final. What were you saying to yourself to be able to still front up, to still represent the leader that the team needed? That I've got to navigate the team through this. Of the four tournaments, this is probably the most challenging for keeping the outside noise on the outside. So after every game, bringing the whole group together, players and staff, talking to them about this is where we're at, this is the reality.

6:18There was a picture. We drew 1-1 with Denmark, not a good performance. The Danes are celebrating with their fans. They've got one point and they're on two points for the tournament. Our players are like this. they're on the floor, they're head in hands we've also got a point we're top of the table on four points but the players have gone with this narrative that we should be ashamed of the performance not thinking hang on this is tournament football you know the objective is to qualify from the group so fellas we're fine you know we've now two games gone we're 97 % chance that we're through anyway whatever happens in the third game so we've got to stay on track we've got to stay calm in a tournament, you're in this bubble where you can be so affected by what's going on outside and lose the togetherness, lose the sense of direction that my job through that tournament was to keep reminding them, boom, hey we've got to get better by the way this is what we've got to do better we're not doing this well enough but we're still here and regardless of everything else we're showing resilience and we're showing spirit that we've developed over six eight years through the big nights where we've won and the nights where we've lost so let's keep on track and and you know they needed to see the leader is confident of where we're heading you know in those moments everybody's looking at the leader how's he dealing with it am I ready to follow him how's he coping so I know what I've got to project but I also know in my room I'm thinking I've got to see this through I'm going to keep my dignity in the press conferences I'm not going to bite I'm in control I know I'm actually feeling him personally in pretty good form so yeah so all of those things where had I been 10 years younger back to my time at Middlesbrough, I've got nowhere near the catalogue of experiences to draw on.

8:31So I couldn't possibly have got through that then. But 10 years later with 100 internationals behind me, totally different experiences to draw on, strength of resolve, everything really. And what about your family though? Because that must be pretty horrific for them to watch you having to walk through this. yeah well that is I mean reality is that is different because they haven't elected to be in that environment and they are living it and they are reading about their dad they didn't come to a game until the final because I said you know I don't think it's a good idea for you to come I don't think you should be in the stadium because of the abuse well yeah just because that the environment for them the discussion the narrative around my position through that tournament I didn't want to be worrying about what they might be dealing with so let's cut that problem out you you guys stay at home when we won the semi-final I said you might be all right now stories turned a little bit you might as well come because you never know we might actually have a you know incredible night that'll be so again you've got to manage the things that you're in control of yeah I don't want to be worrying about I've got a play I can't be worrying about those other things.

9:52So I had to manage. There's always a bit of... I have brilliant people that look after me that would have helped my family with their travel and everything else. But a small part of you would have still been saying, hope they're all right. I don't know who's sitting around them. What are they saying? So yeah, we avoided that issue. Did they know you were finishing the job after the tournament? Yeah, I did have that conversation with them. because I had to reassure them, look, I'm reassuring them, I'm fine. They're at home, they're reading things, they're watching television, they're listening because they're not as experienced as I am at closing those things off.

10:39So they're thinking, blimey, is dad all right? In a rare moment of worrying about dad. so but yeah so I'm thinking no no no look I know where we are you know this if it ends on Wednesday we've had an amazing journey I don't want to go you know Slovakia first knockout game or whatever it is I don't want it to finish on Wednesday but if it does we'll have to deal with it but I'm fine okay we're on to the next one we're on to the next one and I needed to reassure them that I was fine and it was easy for me to do that because I was in a good place. So I wasn't having to act that. They would have known me.

11:22They would sense where I was with everything. You didn't feel lonely? I had brilliant staff around me. Yeah. So you're never succeeding on your own. You're constantly drawing on good people around you. Yeah, leadership position, there are moments where you're the only, you know you are the only one and you make decisions and you're left with your own thoughts but I wasn't in that camp thinking oh god you know I'm not I felt unbelievably well supported by good people.

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14:03obviously there's the moment that you decide to walk away right before that did you try and turn things around and explain this is unfair for the following reasons or like attempt to change the direction of the media narrative and the public mood yeah but i think this had been building for you know i don't think this was a two three month thing i think we'd been four years of not picking you know he's not picking the right team, he's not playing the right way, there's a better alternative out there. So you are fighting it. It wasn't like, oh, okay, I'm getting a bit of criticism, I'm off. I'm a bit more resilient than that.

14:45There'd been this build-up for a long period, even through the Euros at home. We should be playing X, should be playing Y. Why are we playing five at the back against Germany? Well, actually, we've matched them up and we've won against a very, very good side first time we've beaten Germany in a knockout game for 30 years. So, you know, it was a constant fight. I had those two, three years leading into Russia that it was all new, it's all fresh. Did you understand it at all? Or was it just confusing? Why is this the narrative around a successful team, the most successful team since Al-Framsey? Well, that's logical to take that view.

15:26And of course, part of me would definitely think that that would be a fair way to look at it but I understood it because I've been in football for 37 years so I understand that as a leader you know the important thing is they come for me not for the team my job is to take it for the team I've got to give them space I've got to take the pressure off of them so I've because of all the things I've that have happened in my life I've developed that resilience that shell that you can cope with it a little bit more and I can't take it all because everybody's got to take a little bit but I'm going to protect them as much as I can.

16:09And you accept, I'd seen everybody from Graham Taylor to Bobby Robson, I knew what the job was. Most amazing life experience, incredible memories, nights that I'll never ever forget, that people that come up to me will never forget. Some kids think we always get to finals. because they've never known anything different. They haven't lived the 45 years we have. So leadership's hard, isn't it? And it's never been harder because of 24-7 media, social media. That is the landscape. It comes with great rewards, great experiences, and there's another side to that as well. If you'd have known the cost, though, would you have still taken the job?

16:51Well, I did know what the costs would be. when Roy left I was asked to apply and I backed off of it really and one of the reasons being I'd seen all those previous managers and do I want to go through all of that and a little bit of a lack of belief in myself perhaps and a feeling that actually an internal appointment at that moment where we'd just lost to Iceland I think would have got lambasted by the public so actually two months down the line when Sam left slightly different actually we've got a game in a week's time somebody's got to take the team I'm the only one left so you know we'll give it a go there's a different narrative that you're inheriting if you're going in on the back foot from the start it's hard to change that you're pushing a boulder up a hill from the off you know it's not impossible to turn that around but it's much much harder so despite the way it finished you didn't ever regret taking the job oh god no i mean the life experience i've had the the things i've been able to do i've met royal family prime ministers traveled the world at the most amazing nights in professional sport being involved in some of the biggest games in world football amazing relationships with players and staff so no I mean not you know for all the we focused a little bit on a period where it's hard and you you know that leaves a few scars there's no doubt about that but no what a life experience to be able to do that hold that position for the length of time I had and the following day after you told the FA and you were no longer the England manager.

18:39How did that feel? A lot calmer. The morning after the final, we land back in Birmingham. We're obviously charter flight. My family is still flying back with all the other families, so they're going to be home after us. So, I get back to home and And a friend of ours had looked after the dog. We've got a little cockapoo, by the way. I don't normally like to be seen out in the hours of daylight with him. I'd prefer a lab or something. What's his name? Teddy. Teddy. He's 12 now. So I open the door and there's Ted. I mean, he doesn't care about the final, does he? You know, he doesn't care who's played left back.

19:26He's there. It's unconditional. Got all my bags from six weeks. And I go upstairs. I take my bags upstairs. And he's thrown up. all over the bedroom floor. So, now bear in mind, the Spanish manager's currently in Madrid on an open-top bus with a trophy. So if you want the contrast between the margins of winning and losing, there you are in a nutshell. It's Teddy welcome home. You know what, though, in some ways, isn't that almost the best welcome home? Because it's a reminder that life just keeps on moving. Yeah, yeah. I mean I'm not putting myself in with rock bands but I've heard about rock bands going on tour and the struggle to adapt back to I mean my wife's pretty quick to tell me never mind that, you're home now, get the bins out but that is life isn't it?

20:20Life goes on

20:24but that's the difference we're 85 minutes won all in the final they were the better team but if we win 2-1 I'm not home alone with the dog I'm in Trafalgar Square that's the margins of winning and losing and that's legacy in some ways and it's made me wonder historic figures that have incredible history that we've read about Churchill or whoever else it might be across world history I wonder what those margins were in those moments and how we judge whether people were successful or less successful. Take a look at that photo and that fresh-faced young man on the day he's announced as the England manager.

21:16Did he realise what was ahead of him, do you think? No, clearly you can't know at that point how everything is going to play out. I do remember talking in a press conference and saying, I've seen people get into roles and that's that's almost been their end and I was determined that okay getting the role that's fine it's a level above anything I've ever experienced before but it's really now about what we do and what we go and deliver and how we go about it so I was very clear that that wasn't the end of it it was day one yeah even though it was a huge step from anything I'd done previously. See, I think we're now talking at a very interesting time for you because I think when you were the England manager and it was about results and it was about tournaments and it was about progression and it was about selection and it was about players, all the other things that you did in the role that are now your legacy were kind of, they weren't dismissed but they weren't discussed because there was bigger things in that moment.

22:19And I kind of feel that now we're finally having the conversation about just how different England looks to the day that you walked through the door in 2016. So can you take us back to what you found in the England set-up when you did walk through the door and you thought, okay, this needs my attention? Yeah, I mean, the start point was obviously results. So no knockout win for 10 years. Disconnect with the public, disconnect with the media. I didn't find a group that were disunited. So, you know, under Roy, I thought lads got on. There was the start of relationships being built, so I wouldn't say we walked in and, goodness me, they were all over the place disagreeing with each other.

23:03That wasn't the case. I think because when a team's underperforming, they sometimes don't commit as much because they sense it might not work and they don't want to throw themselves all in because they'll be scarred by the failure almost. so it was a fortunate period in that I think because of results there was a willingness for change there was definitely an openness within the FA we'd moved to St George's Park a few years before a lot of change was going on with the junior youth teams and I'd been involved in that people like Dan Ashworth were there Dave Redding so good strategic people you know I'm not or I wasn't then particularly good strategically so I had people around me with other skill sets that I was able to lean into but culture felt like one of the biggest things and this commitment to the cause and was there really well definitely fear of I guess what I experienced being the player that was responsible for the moment where you go out of a tournament and I think there was there was definitely a feeling of I don't want to be that player so a bit of self-protection playing for your national football team doesn't come with much more pressure than that in sport because you're outside your comfort zone at a club you're there 300 days a year you know everybody from the kit man to the lady that's washing the kit to dinner people providing the meals so if you have a bad performance this comfort there this i suppose what we'd call psychological security with the national team you you're in you've got to bond quickly when you have a performance everybody's weighing in with opinion so for a player it's a much much less secure feeling if you like and and one of the things i wanted to create to create was okay how do we how do we release that tension because I played for England and I knew what that felt like um and we couldn't be burdened by the history of my generation not getting the results you know it's part of what we did was to focus on this moment in time free you up of all everything that's gone before talk to them a bit about my experiences but you know you can make this moment something really special we you'll have heard us talk about creating our own history That was why we kept using that phrase, really.

25:40Okay, we haven't won here for 30 years, let's be the first to do it. Sort of challenge mindset rather than feeling the pressure of we've got to win, I suppose. I think what was significant, Gareth, is, and you write about this really beautifully in your brilliant book, you didn't just rely on slogans of let's create our own history. You then boiled it down to really clear cultural behaviors. including how you give the kit back. Would you explain a bit about that and its significance? Culture is a word that's used an enormous amount, isn't it? So what is that? What creates that? Well, the leader definitely sets the tone for that.

26:21And respectfully, there's what you say, but then what you do is far more important. So same as our kids looking at us, they're looking at our behaviours, they're mimicking what we do. it's why I pull the same faces that my dad pulls and you go oh god I must be getting old because I'm doing those things so players are the same if you're saying we want to have freedom and then a mistake happens on the pitch and I'm jumping up and down like John Cleese then they're going to say well there is no hang on a minute he's talking about freedom but actually he's killing this or he's killing this in a meeting afterwards and then there's the small habits so when I was a young coach at Middlesbrough I let small things go.

27:03I didn't pull up little cultural creep. What sort of things would count as small cultural creeps? Well, like putting the kit in the washbas, you know, kits on the floor, okay? So is it the kit man's job to pick your kit up off the floor or actually are we going to have a standard where there's respect for the kit man? All we're asking you to do is put your kit in the washbas, it makes his life easier, shows a bit of respect for the kit, you know, we're not going to fine people for doing it, but let's have those little things as accepted behaviors. And when those small things are right, nobody actually notices them.

27:42But when they start to disappear, you get what I call this creep of behaviors that slowly erodes. And if you don't step on it, then, you know, slightly more important, you know, timekeeping starts to suffer. And before you know it, then on the field, you're taking those behaviours onto the field. So I think it's about respect for the whole group, players, staff. Everybody thinks about the 26 players, but you've probably got double that many staff now as well. So everybody's got to be part of that. One of the other things that I really enjoyed seeing you do early on was taking your players out of the comfort that so many are used to and into the mud of the marine environment and doing some time with the military.

28:26would you sort of share with us why you felt it was important that you had not just a shared experience but some shared discomfort with your players yeah yeah so firstly I always think it's important to acknowledge where other people have been involved because as a leader you get a lot of stick for things that aren't all your fault and you get credit for things that aren't all your decisions so I mean Dave Redding who's now joined Wells Rugby he was with Clive Woodward in 2003 They'd been to the Marines. So he'd lived through that experience and he suggested, he thought this would be a good way of putting the guys into a different environment, taking them out of their comfort zone.

29:09Then as the leader, you've got to assimilate all those ideas. Well, what does that mean? We've got tens of millions of pounds of footballers. If one of them turns their ankle, we're in real trouble with the clubs here. Where are we heading with that? Will they like it? Will they hate it? a lot of the players that were with us for the full eight years would say one of the best experiences they ever had. Did the Marines give you any feedback on what they were seeing from the squad? We definitely asked about who they saw as strong leaders in the group. So I remember on that camp they talked about Joe Hart, Harry Kane and then we were up, okay, what was that?

29:50and there was a selflessness, there was a going in first, a fearlessness about how they approach things. So it was great to get an outside view of your group. I mean, I love that aspect of it anyway. I'm always looking at the psychology of a group and the hierarchy of a group and the dynamics because fundamentally that's what you're building. There's the tactics board, but there's the flesh and blood and there's how does this all fit together, those team dynamics and squad dynamics are critical to creating a culture where players can go and perform at their very best and a team can perform at their best so I have to be careful I don't you know I don't just focus on that there's all the other things that you need to get right but you get an idea of players that are going to fit in or not fit in anyway but a trip like that accelerates that massively because they're under pressure they're a bit tired they're a bit irritable they can't just be on their best behavior you know their natural tendencies come out and you can start to identify not not sure that's going to work in this environment really I remember you telling me a story about on that trip was it Caren Trippier collecting rubbish that impressed you yeah yeah yeah I mean again we're back to small details but you know you're camping out and some of the lads wrapped the tent up, cleared off and there's a pile of mess on the, you know, we're out in the countryside.

31:20Okay, what are we doing about that? He'd just tidied his bedroom basically. You know, again, simple things, but small habits matter. You know, small habits every day are what end up leading to elite performance really. And how would a trip like that help England to win games of football? well I think there was an element of hardship I mean we actually our next game we were away at Hampden Park so we were going into a pretty hostile environment and you know we talked about the resilience that we'd gained and we were 1-0 ahead in the game pretty comfortable 85 minutes Lee Griffiths hits a free kick 1-0 2 minutes later he gets an identical free kick same position and I'm looking at it thinking this is going in by the way he's going to pops it in we're now 2-1 down and if we lose this game now the whole Marines trip's got a different slant on it.

32:19There's a brilliant story in the book that I'd like you to explain about the poker chips and how you engage the players would you tell us more about it? Well that was not the players so much it was more the staff group behind the scenes so this was one of Dave's again at that stage everything was up for grabs okay how can we improve the performance of the team so could be the physical preparation could be the psychological preparation it might you know what are we doing on our football so details of set plays um and had you taken charge of a game before you did this this was after my four games as a caretaker right so this is almost the start Part of your reign properly.

33:03Yeah. Yeah. And how do we, you know, we're now 14th in the world. We want to be the best. That's the gap. How do we bridge that gap? Media relations, as an example, we knew there was this disconnect. How do we bridge that gap? You know, our comms team wrote a paper, almost like an academic paper, on the influence of communications on performance. so it wasn't just how we're going to do the media better it was look this is actually how we view our communication as a performance gain and if you think back to Russia where it was the first time really a team had used social media to engage with the fans we were in that transition where clubs weren't necessarily doing that so all this different content where you saw the dad's genuine behind-the-scenes enjoyment, relaxed pictures.

34:02We had our own photographer embedded, whereas what you used to see was photographs from the day before a game, training at the stadium. Everyone's got their game face on because we better look serious because the press are in, so it can't look like we're enjoying it. Everybody will think we're messing about and not taking it seriously. So people thought, well, they don't like playing for England I don't think that was always the story but that was the images that were going out so all of a sudden you've got you know Maguire on his inflatable unicorn and all those sorts of things that are these lads get on you know it's changing the narrative then you win a couple of games so yeah so all those details and back to your poker chips so there's all these things we could do but we've only got 50 days a year with the team so we can't do everything and what are the key things so staff then okay where are you going to put your poker chips basically you've got 30 chips you can put them all on one area and what sort of topics were you offering them?

35:09so in a football sense how we attack, how we defend set plays, penalty shootouts so we know or we knew you've probably got to win a penalty shootout to win a tournament history tells us that were a disaster at them. History tells us that as well. So that's an obvious one. But again, set plays, set play coaches at that time, specialist coaches in other sports were more prevalent. They weren't in football. When we went to Russia, we had a huge amount of success with set plays. And then medically, you can't make the players, in the time you have them internationally, you can't make the players fitter and stronger really.

35:52you haven't got long enough if you push them too hard you're going to break them you're going to send them back injured so you've got to really think about how much training they're doing it's got to be aligned with what they do at their club otherwise they're going to be fatigued going into a game that's going to inhibit their performance so all these things I'm going to put some chips there and we slowly developed a picture of this is where we need to allocate our time This is where we've only got a certain amount of financial resource. So if we want a set play coach, that's going to cost us money.

36:27What aren't we going to do if we're putting that in place? And it was basically a prioritization exercise. But your staff were the ones that made the decision as to where they thought the times should be prioritized. It didn't come from you? No. Well, we all, I mean, I had to go. But it wasn't like an authoritarian situation where you're like, this is how England runs under Gareth Southgate. No, there are some things where you have to put your marker down. So the culture I want to set, that has to come from me because I've got to live that. But every other thing, I've got people that are better at those individual areas than I am, more experienced, greater knowledge.

37:10My job is to gather all the information and make the best possible decisions with what they're telling me. so I need to give them the most open forum possible to feel like they can speak that I'm not influencing them you know talk in the book that if we're in team meetings I tried to speak last from the staff because as soon as I've given an opinion that risks influencing someone else's not their thinking but their willingness to share you know if they're thinking differently to the leader who the perception is holds the power in the room then they're going to be reluctant to go in a completely different direction.

37:49I've just seen that in so many businesses and so many environments I've been in where a leader comes in, gives a speech and people are thinking, well, I wouldn't quite have done it that way, but I'd better not say anything. So I think so many organisations underperform because that environment exists. Can I just pick up on the point about the way the press spoke about England? Was it a rugby player that said to us he watches football and sees every player playing within themselves yes who was it was it johnny wilkinson yes i thought so so a long time ago when we spoke with johnny wilkinson he talked about dealing with other people's opinions of you and he said he watches football and he sees fear gripping every professional footballer in the country because the amount of social media scrutiny the way the media write about footballers have you ever allowed yourself to kind of think about what the game would look like if we just spoke positively about these young people that are doing the best to represent their club and represent their country.

38:46Jake, I love it. And now let's go back to the real world. But why are we in this world where we want to be hypercritical and then say, now go and perform as a 21-year-old in front of the world. And then pillory them for playing badly. It feels like we'll create the problem and then we'll criticise them for being part of the problem is that fair completely and that's why internally when you're coaching you've got to create an environment where you're balancing all of that noise that they're getting externally so you've got to allow them as much freedom as you possibly can you know I talk to my players regularly about you know if we're not trying things if you're not making mistakes mistakes, then we're probably not really going for it.

39:35You know, I'm expecting you to make mistakes and I'm not going to criticize you for making mistakes. Like I will criticize you if you make a mistake and then you don't look for the ball the next time. I will criticize you if you make a mistake, lose the ball and you don't chase back quickly. But the actual process, especially for attacking players, because they've got to fail. To beat somebody is hard. The odds are in the favour of the defender so if I'm running at you you're going to probably stop me because even by just putting a foot out you might get lucky so forwards are going to fail because they've got to try things and it's harder but then you're waiting for one moment where they beat the defender get the whip the cross in and bang you win the game you've got to keep reinforcing that because their brain and all the noise around them is telling them the opposite.

40:28And it's the noise, I always talk about, you know, where does pressure come from? It's the voice in your head, really. It's how your voice is interpreting all the noise that's around you. Nobody's standing over you for pressure. And actually all that noise doesn't mean anything until you interpret it in your mind. And which player do you look back on in that period or players and you thought, I really hope to lift the pressure there? Because it's a myth to think that these players aren't seeing what's written in the papers or what's said on social media. They are on there, right? They are using these apps.

41:03Yeah. I mean, I don't know why they do that. Did you try to encourage them to not go on? I do know why they do it because there's a great method of communicating with people. but unless you're really strong, resilient, can rationalise things then if you're starting to read all the comments underneath I can't see how that's ever going to help performance Is anyone strong enough to deal with that? Well I'd say no in reality because the volume now of that debate is so intense so yeah I remember talking to players quite often after their debut how did you find it? Yeah great I can remember I think Harry Maguire's debut was in Lithuania how did you find it?

41:53Yeah great, didn't make any mistakes great, how about next time you try to be the best player you can be? But isn't that what we just said? The number one criteria for a professional footballer was to make no mistakes that's restrictive in itself isn't it it is but I think if I think back to when I started playing my aim when I first got in the team was just to stay in the team and your thought process is well if I don't make any mistakes I can probably achieve and so again as a coaching team you've got to work doubly hard to okay that's fine that's a certain level but if we're going to be world class then we're going to have a different mindset and of course you've got players that have they don't see that risk in the same way, their personality if you profiled them they see opportunity not risk and so they're more likely to go for those things naturally with the other boys you've really got to keep encouraging and when they fail come on you can go again so it's all trying to affect the psychology really.

43:07But can I ask you about that voice in the voice in your head that brings the pressure how did you learn to manage and control that voice for you? Yeah took me 52 years I've just started to crack it on the last three because I was there as a player so period well actually going into Euro 96, I was flying, you know, and I played really well in the tournament on the biggest stage I'd ever been on because I was in flow. I wasn't worrying about what might go wrong. I knew I was in form. I knew I was fit. I was reading things well. When I missed the penalty, the next six months of my England career, not so much club because the club always back to the comfort, but England career now, can't afford to give a goal away here.

44:02You know, if I give a goal away, then media are going to be on me again. So I'm now playing, trying not to make mistakes. As you know, it's a disaster. You're never going to perform at the level you need to. So what flipped that for me was I got dropped. Glenn Hoddle dropped me. I was mortified at the time. I went back to my room and then actually I was relieved. I'm out of the team. and then it was kind of, well, hang on a minute, that's not good. So how do we get back? And okay, well, now I realise I've probably been through, the worst that can happen is I'm out of the team and if I reflect on missing the penalty, career-wise, that's probably the worst thing that can happen to me as a professional sportsman, bar injury.

44:49So actually, it's all, you know, no inhibitions now. I can go for it. So it was a real, you know, it was a six-month period because we didn't have people like Damien to come in and help talk us through all of that in those days. You had to work it out for yourself, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think somebody skilled like Damien is in working you through that journey would have helped fast-track the learning and make that more structured, whereas you had to kind of work it out for yourself. but you know I got through it and the resilience that was built because of it helped me for the rest of my life.

45:27So you realise there then that just because something is hard for you it isn't necessarily bad for you. Do you think you missing the penalty in 1996 was directly related to the fact that you were the England coach that managed to get England to a successful penalty shootout in 2018? Yeah without a doubt. Why? Well because I've become a world expert on penalty shoots now. what did you give to your players then well firstly to go back to your you asked about how did I control the you know it was all these experiences along the way that taught me how to control the voice in my head you've probably talked before to Gears Your Day and people who've done enormous penalty studies so again this was an area we threw open to our analysis team right you guys go away we'll need to win a penalty shootout and we need to get the British public out from behind the sofa every time we go to one so what areas can we work out and they you know all of this has been made public over the last few years really so I don't feel like I'm giving away intellectual property that's going to cost England next year but you know they analysed everything from the moment the referee blows the final whistle so actually how long have we got to talk to the team because you know we don't want to talk too early and then the players are hanging around well actually we know there's at least three and a half minutes or why or because every tv station in the world goes to a commercial break and they won't start the penalty shootout earlier than that so okay so we've got three and a half minutes what are we doing in that time what what do the players need at that moment what type of communication and then you're going through and what was the type of communication they needed well had to be really clear concise you know in moments of pressure when i talk to people from the military or you know they're used to communicating and there's got to be you know less is good i think you know you can't be using elaborate language you can't be talking for too long because the ability to take information on at that moment is really difficult you know half time is tough but end of a game waiting for a penalty shootout really really concise again I think I got better at that we had four shootouts by the last one we'd cleared all everybody away all the subs away communication I'd kind of prepared it the day before because I knew if we're at that moment I know exactly what needs to be said what did you say in your final one basically reassurance that you've got a process you know we're in control so one of the important things was the narrative for years was it's a lottery you can't practice it but actually having control over situations like that is critical or perception of control so we know the techniques that we need to use you know we weren't working to improve an Ivan Tony he scores every week but we did need to work with Kieran Trippier before Moscow with Harry Maguire before he buried his one in the top corner against Italy so you know we could show you video footage of Maguire practicing that penalty in training, boom, boom, boom.

49:02So that doesn't make it any less pressure. I'm sure he was still incredibly nervous, but he had a routine. And so he feels in control of that moment. He knows what he's going to do. Now you've got to stick to the plan. So by the point we got to all the work had been done, it's just reminding them that you've got a process. stick with what you what you've been practicing yeah that was it simple as that really you don't need to be whipping them up at that moment it's actually a I bet it felt good the first one when Eric dies I bet you were like did it put some of those 96 demons away for you? well there were so many layers to that shootout because there's obviously the personal narrative there's the fact we had to at least win a knockout if the team were going to show progression in that tournament we needed to win a knockout game that's the first knockout game so we know before the game really perceived success or failure of this tournament rests on this knockout game then we go to a penalty shootout if we don't change this narrative you can imagine what the narrative the stories about me would have been is it any wonder we've lost a shootout because he got us knocked out in 96.

50:27And also belief in all the processes we'd been going through on the details across all these different areas of the game. So they definitely felt a feeling of redemption. But of course, that doesn't help the players that played with me in 96. But it was a start of a process of hopefully, if England get a penalty shootout next summer, I think the whole nation is looking differently at that because we've won three of our last four, whereas we'd lost six of our seven. Did you ever tell them about your experience in 96? Yeah. I'm not somebody that worries about sharing vulnerability. I think the players needed to understand that I had empathy.

51:12I mean, you're not always going to be able to directly relate to a group of people that you're managing and leading. But in that instance, having been a player was helpful. you know I don't think you have to have been a top player to be a coach which was lucky because I wasn't a top player but in those examples the the fact that you've walked in their shoes and you know how difficult it is and you can tell them why you didn't you know I couldn't I failed to execute a skill under pressure so how can I help you to be able to master that skill and this is why I think it's important and this is what I think can help you We've had guests say things on this podcast that genuinely stay with me long after the episode ends.

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55:24You're bearing everything. You're leaving yourself a bit exposed, but actually you're confident enough to do that. so it's not a sign of weakness I'd say it's a sign of strong confidence that I don't mind standing up in front of this group of alpha males and superstar players and talking about now by the way I mean not every story can be about things that went wrong because they'll start to think has he got a clue what he's doing so but you know I think I think in that environment you know it's a very macho you've been around sport long enough to know men's sport, what that all looks like. But I think people are changing as well.

56:11The way we lead people is changing. I don't think they'll just give respect to an authoritarian leader. You've got to earn their respect even more. I think younger generations, it's not about a title. It's how you treat them. It's how you engage with them. so I think that timing of the way my style is always going to be that way because that's how I am and maybe the timing of that it's good for me that professional football, professional sports changing a little bit the expected communication isn't just directive demanding there are moments you've got to do that but people want to see what we call softer skills but critical skills really it's not soft Talking about critical skills two years after that penalty shootout there was another one against Italy this time in the final and I've read about the work that you did with Casper Berry the poker player and I think about the relevance of that moment where you made late substitutions specifically for a penalty shootout I mean I saw the criticism that also came your way after the penalty shootout because of the result primarily but I'm just really interested in how you got to a point through maybe some of the work you did with him where in that pressure cooker white hot moment at Wembley against Italy in a final to still be able to make what you believe to be the right decisions regardless of what the external opinion of those decisions might become or might be at the time.

57:42For us in that moment it was about the process that gives us the best percentage chance of winning and you know people criticised Raheem Sterling for not taking a penalty, Jack Grealish, but that wasn't their call. I didn't put Raheem in that position on that night. He was a more experienced player. He was an important, crucial player for us. But his penalty record was 33%. Marcus Rashford's 87%. So these were data-driven decisions? Well, they were, you know, evidence-based. Now, if we're not going to go that route, then we just toss a coin and go back to what we were doing for years before. So, you know, had we left Raheem on and not used Marcus, you know, had Raheem missed, and maybe he would have scored, but had he missed, we'd have been going, well, it's 33%.

58:42Of course, why did we make that call? You have to marry that up by going, right, he's 33 and he's over 80, but he's been sitting on the subs bench, he's been playing, he's played well he was in good form this week he came to me with a bit of a fear a couple of days ago how do you balance the data with the human? and that's fair because you've still got to factor in all those aspects and clearly only being on the pitch for a very short period isn't helpful but that's a big percentage shift and there's plenty of World Cup final Argentina put Dybala on in the last minute he takes penalty scores nobody's talking about it when Harry Kane missed his second penalty against France in Qatar some people said oh you shouldn't have let him take a second pen there's two parts to that in the World Cup final Mbappe scored three and then also if we hadn't let Kane take it and we'd let somebody else take it and he'd missed can you imagine so again as a leader you've got to accept that people will judge on the outcome.

59:51But to your point about the poker player that came in, his point to us was, you had a good hand there, you were right to play the hand, you lost it, but if you play that hand 10 times, you're going to win eight of them. So you've got to gamble on the hand you had. Did that help you afterwards when you thought about that, despite the result? Well, I played the hand I had. Well, we had that meet like eight months later. So I then was thinking back because we then got a decision on do we stick with the process for our next penalty shootout or do we change it? And that discussion around the decision you made with the evidence and information you had at the time, do you still think that was right?

1:00:39That did affect my thinking moving forward because there was a risk of ripping everything up that had succeeded against Colombia, had succeeded against Switzerland in a Nations League game. But we've lost one now. So are we going to stick with it or are we going to change? And we slightly refined. One of the things, we actually practiced a little bit less. So I think one of the things in 2021, Marcus had almost practiced too many times. he was trying to be too perfect in practice because the goalkeepers had started to read where he'd go. So if you look at the penalty he takes in that final, he takes way longer than ever before.

1:01:30Now normally people talk about rushed penalty ticks, not taking long enough over the penalty. He actually takes longer. Now he might feel differently about that, but my sense was, and I said to him months later, I think because he'd been practicing against goalkeepers in training too often, he was trying to be too perfect. So he's looking for the right in that stanchion area and hits the post. So, okay, we're going to take fewer penalties next time. There's more pressure on each one. you can only have three not eight because actually they lose focus and we're going to take an extra goalkeeper so that you're not facing the same goalkeeper every time as well so yeah of course we win the shootout so is everything right I don't know in football it is well yeah yeah but I think the more you build up the percentages in your favour then logically to me you've got a better chance of succeeding can I speak to you about some of the tougher calls that you made as well Gareth like navigating the retirement of Wayne Rooney from the international setup it seems that you handled that with thought and consideration would you tell us how you came to decisions like that yeah I mean they are big calls so you're very conscious that whilst I talk a lot about people and managing people and people that I think I'm empathetic and hugging everybody.

1:03:12There's decisions that have to be made and you've got to make big calls. Wayne's one of our greatest ever players. Now I have to say he could have made that incredibly difficult because we know that one of the hardest things for an athlete is to accept they're on the decline. One of the reasons they are as good as they are is because they've got unbelievable self-belief. they won't want to admit that they're coming towards the end. In the second game I had, he'd started the first game. I said, look, I'm not going to start you in the second. But for a top player, his humility and his awareness was incredible, really, because he said, no, look, I'm not getting into Manchester United's team.

1:03:58I don't expect, therefore, just to start for England. So play that out a few months down the line, and he's heading towards the end at United and there were players that were playing better than him. Now, all I could do then is show as much respect as possible for the career he'd had. I played with him on his debut, so I wanted to be as respectful of what he'd achieved and go and see him and talk it through. But the reality of that is the way he received that information made that much more comfortable for me because that could have gone anywhere, that conversation. you know we've seen those things happen so his humility his acceptance and we all have a choice in those moments don't we you know it's a bit of a reminder that delivering bad news is difficult but how you receive bad news I think the person on the other side would always remember that because you know I could have left with a very different view of Wayne I'm telling you a story where he comes out with enormous credit I probably wouldn't have talked about it if it's been the other way but in my back of my mind I'd have been thinking yeah that wasn't that didn't go so well what is the secret to to delivering that kind of news particularly when it's a winner like like Wayne Rooney is it let me tell you about all the amazing things that you've done for me and will continue to do but by the way here's some bad news or are you just like listen Wayne I've made a call and you're not in my plans or I think there are different types of tough conversation so there's tough performance conversations where you're probably going to be with us for the next few games, Jake, but we need more.

1:05:41So I need to highlight that, firstly, where do you see your performance? And are we seeing it in the same... Because maybe it isn't a tough conversation because maybe you're saying to me, actually, I've been struggling with this and this. Okay, well, how can I help you? For a coach, that's a much easier. so let's try that way first and save ourselves a lot of heartache but if you're not seeing what I'm seeing now I've got to say look now look I like this this and this but I think you've got to be better in this area and how do I help you get there because if I don't highlight the issues I'm seeing and I'll just leave you out of the team in three weeks that's a shock that's a harder conversation to have and I actually haven't helped you, I haven't helped to coach you to be the best you can be.

1:06:34So although that might feel like a tough conversation, by avoiding it and you're then out of the team, I'm creating an even harder conversation further down the line. So I think when people put those conversations off, which I did a couple of times as a young coach, actually they're storing up trouble for themselves. So I would urge people, have the coaching conversation. I heard Steve Peters talk about it, you know, frame it. If you're delivering that discussion, frame it. I'm trying to help you, but it's coming from a place of love, if you like. I'm trying to help you get better. It's not, I'm trying to highlight that you're poor at this.

1:07:16You know, you're going to be a better player. You're going to be a better person for this information I'm handing on, which means that then the other conversation where you're delivering bad news, I don't think you should spend too long on that I don't think people hear too much once you've told them that bad news I think they switch off And was that what the conversation was with Wayne? Well I think we were further down the line so I'd ask to go and see him that's not normally a good discussion so he's semi-prepared for what's coming but to broaden it more generally if I've got to leave a player out of a game, then I think it's telling the bad news, no use fluffing it up, but then give them the opportunity to come back later when they've had time to process their thoughts, go through what they're really thinking, what their emotions are.

1:08:13Simply because, as I said, I think if you waffle for a long time and try and make yourself feel better, because I've given them a bit of sugar here as well as the bad news. I don't think they're hearing any of that. I think all they're thinking, you know, I know I've been dropped from teams. All I'm thinking is, right, I'm out. And what does that mean? And I'm away with the fairies then. So how do you think people will in the years to come write about your tenure? Yeah, I mean, some people will have loved it. You know, it's the most successful period since 66 to 72 because even Sir Ralph didn't qualify in 74 for the World Cup.

1:08:55So even he ended up leaving on a bit of a low. Others will say we should have won with the team that we had and you've got to live with that as a leader. You're defined in football by trophies. But I think on a broader scale, if I was talking to youngsters about leadership and you've got to think about what was there when you started, you know what did you leave behind how did you affect the people that were with you what are their memories of it how did you make people feel along that journey so there's you know the risk in purely defining and people will say oh well he's not going to define it by trophies because he didn't win so i'm accepting that i'm accepting that but we have to be broader than that otherwise life for most people in the population is going to be pretty miserable so we have to have a better balance on those things.

1:09:52And you said earlier on that some scars still remain from the way that it finished England. I think some things will always be there but I've enjoyed well I'm now in a, something else you'd have talked about over the years with other people you know I'm now in a career transition moment almost okay I've had 37 years 15 defined as a player never had the chance to think about because I went from player to manager overnight so this is the first period where am I going to stay in football am I going to do something completely different and a lot of people my sort of age are going through that process I think you know I've sold a business or I've stepped away from a big role and what do I want to do with the rest of my life.

1:10:39I think a lot of people are looking for purpose. You know, I had amazing purpose because it was my country. So replicating the size of the job I had and having purpose, that's close to impossible really. So I'm not against going in a completely different direction. You know, I want to help young people. I want to help this, change this narrative around our country that the country's a mess you know we should all be moving away well let's change that you know let's give young people hope let's think about how we mentor young people and none of us want to turn the television and hear that every day it's just a self-fulfilling prophecy so but we've all got a chance to do something every day to change that help guide young people mentor young people whatever that might be we you know we're an amazing country with so much talent people want to have businesses here because the legal system's the best in the world so how much more valuable is it for young people to be told actually in so many areas life has never been better the opportunities are greater than they've ever been and that's not for young people i think that's for you as well i think you know you've if you've learned anything is that you can't control everything right yeah so what happens next is probably arguably not within your control so it's maybe time to explore and just see what the world gives you, what the universe offers up.

1:12:03Definitely. Finally. I wonder what that kind of middle would have made of the journey that you've been on. Yeah, yeah. My granddad, he was in the Royal Marines and I mean I've been blessed that my parents gave me a loving start so I mean you'd have heard of attachment theory where the first few hours, weeks of a kid's life is hugely important. They feel that love. So there's this security that gives you. There's a trust. A lot of young people find it hard to give trust because they've not experienced those early years in that environment. And then because my granddad had standards of the basics, his shoes were polished every morning because he had that military background.

1:12:53He always had a tie on. He'd take his hat off if he saw walk past a lady. So he was around when I started playing for Crystal Palace. He didn't quite get there to see me play for England. But without a doubt, when I stood and sung the national anthem the first time in an England shirt, he was one of the people I was thinking of, yeah. Well, he would indeed be proud, as should you. There's no doubt about the fact that you changed the narrative around the England team. You changed the trajectory of the England team. there was hard times towards the end of that story but in some ways the hard times hopefully framed just how incredible and special the good times were and I think you are a voice for for the future that we all need to hear.

1:13:33Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak.

1:13:39Damien, Jake, it was really interesting understanding the things that he did at England to improve the culture, the mindset, the self-belief of the players and I honestly think that's work that Thomas Tuchel and others will benefit from. But the other half of the interview was the clear pain that you could see in his eyes actually when talking about the end with England. And I really hope that Gareth, as much as this book he's released is about leadership, I also hope it stands as a testament to the fact that we need to be kinder to people. And I know that often isn't the currency in football, but this was a guy giving England their greatest results since Sir Ralph Ramsey and pretty much hounded out of the job, right?

1:14:24You know, he said he left because the perception around him had changed. If the perception was different, he wouldn't have left. And I just got this sense that it remains really unfair. I think the second half where he talks around the culture of the England team, you don't need to understand football to be able to take lessons from that in wherever we are, you know, in any culture, whether you're in a school, a business, whether you're thinking about it in relation to your family. I think what he's learned and what he's sharing so generously in his book and in the conversation with us is invaluable I love the stuff about the poker chips and giving people the opportunity to decide where are you going to put your money where your mouth is where are you going to prioritize we can't do everything or we can do anything but we can't do everything so where are we going to invest our time I think your definition of a leader is do you leave a situation better than what you inherited it And I think when we look at it through that lens, not whether he won a trophy or not, the answers are unequivocal.

1:15:19Yeah, of course he did. What about when he said he didn't have his family? That bit for me was heartbreaking, right? When you're the England boss, you're winning games. He then says against Holland, he felt very little thrill because he knew the storm that was coming if things didn't work out. And his family weren't even there. He kept them away from England games. That is how vitriolic it had got. How sad is that? Well, to me, it's a sign of a sickness in society, isn't it? That means that we have to look at ourselves rather than, for him as a leader, the fact that you've got somebody in charge that's out there in the arena doing the best and they would be worried about the safety of what their family would be subjected to.

1:16:04That's something that should give anybody listening to this pause for a moment of self-reflection. You just hit the nail on the head there. The criticism of Gareth as the England boss was not a reflection on him or the results he was getting. It's a reflection on society, 100%. And I just hope that people read the book, understand the man behind the England job, and reflect positively on a guy who, from the very best place possible, with a good heart, a kind guy, changed England. And by the way, what was he like with our team before and after the record today? Exactly what you see. decent, humble, caring, courteous.

1:16:42I remember when we interviewed Sia Khaleesi, the captain of the South African rugby union team who's back-to-back world champions. And I remember saying to my wife in the conversation afterwards, I've met a man that's playing a different game than what most of us are. That's a man that should be in a position of influence to shape society as a whole. And I feel exactly the same about Gareth. I think he's got a wider role in society to play than just being the England manager. Thank you, mate. Thanks, mate. Gareth talked about incumbency fatigue. That's the moment where a leader's freshness is spent and it doesn't matter, no amount of results is going to change the narrative.

1:17:20What stood out for me is that he saw it clearly and he was able to give it a name and then make the call himself. And that's the kind of self-awareness that knowing when your time is done, that's rarer than any trophy, but I think is a hallmark of a great leader and I class Sir Gareth as one of those. if this episode has resonated with you why not consider sharing it with someone who leads people it doesn't matter if they never watched a football match i think the lessons here go way beyond sport as ever like to thank you for giving us your time and your attention and joining us here on high performance look forward to seeing you again soon

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