Gareth Southgate: Using fear as our fuel

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance App. Available now, Roman Kemp, the broadcaster, opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health. There's got to be some fear that drives performance as well, but it's making sure that we're not consumed by that. High performance, low maintenance is the ideal. High performance just doesn't mean talent. There's no excuse for anybody coming in that doesn't have that work ethic. You know, you played a massive part in getting me through lockdown. to be able to listen to the messages you've brought. You'll get everything you want in life, but not when you want it and not exactly how you'd like it to be.

0:46That is England manager Gareth Southgate and this is High Performance, the show that unlocks the minds of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jake Humphrey and alongside Damien Hughes, we learn from the stories, the struggles and the successes of our guests And in this episode, we reveal the man behind the most talked about job in the country. What makes the manager tick? How does Gareth deal with the pressure? And what does the future look like for English football? We recorded this conversation near Gareth's house at a lovely hotel just after lockdown. And he reveals so much in this conversation, not least what he looks for in his players.

1:24Right, let's do it and welcome Gareth Southgate to High Performance. But first, a quick message from some of our valued partners.

1:58Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead, no rigid long-term contracts, just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hey, I'm Dr. Z and I'm a neurosurgeon. So that means long hours, early rounds, late nights, and everything in between. And through it all, I wear figs. They're comfortable when it counts and functional when I need them the most. So where do you wear your figs?

2:35On shift, on call, on the couch in the break room listening to this podcast, wherever it is, they fit right in. And now listeners of this podcast can get 15 % off their first order. Just head to wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. This episode is brought to you by Opera Air. the first browser with mindfulness at its core. Now, most of us spend hours every day online, but how often do we pause to take care of ourselves whilst we're doing it? And that's where Opera Air comes in. It's a lightweight, fast, secure browser built not just for productivity, but for your well-being.

3:13With Opera Air, mindfulness is built right in. You'll find free breathing exercises, guided meditations, and soundscapes with ambient sounds, lo-fi music, and binaural beats, all designed to help you focus, relax, and even spark creativity while you browse.

3:32Please welcome a man who has possibly the most scrutinised, high-profile, talked-about job in the country after the Prime Minister, and actually, I think that's debatable. But what did the harsh dressing rooms of the programme teach him about resilience? What advice would he give for ignoring the noise? And as a man whose every decision is forensically dissected, How has he managed to have a big impact on people with limited time? And what's the trick to staying true to yourself in the strongest public glare? It's a pleasure to welcome a man who had a successful playing career for club and country, who first became a manager in his mid-30s, and just 12-odd years later was managing his country in a World Cup semi-final.

4:12Welcome to High Performance, the England men's football manager, Gareth Southgate. Good morning to you both. Nice to have you with us. I'm a bit more nervous after that introduction than I was before I started. No need for any nerves. Look, I know you listen to the pod, so you know how the pod starts. What is high performance? That never-ending quest for perfection that we know we'll probably never get to. I think there's something that I've seen in winning cultures about doing the basics brilliantly, but then diving into all the other detail that can add the small margins that help you to win.

4:49And the last bit would be about consistency. doing it every day and year after year so winning after winning if you're fortunate enough to get to the point of winning in the first place so I would feel they would be the key elements in my head so how then if that's your definition of high performance do you get to the absolute granular detail of things because it sounds like you hone in on every little element to make it as good as it can be I mean perfection was the word you used how do you do that without becoming myopic with retaining the bigger picture which you absolutely need when you're managing a group of footballers I think that's where the importance of team comes in so um I'm the one that get is the front man for the national team as you said a lot of scrutiny but without having brilliant people with you um how can you possibly be across all the detail all the different departments everything that you need in place to be successful so I know you spoke with Toto Wolff I had a couple of days with them at Mercedes what fascinated me was that their attention to detail in every area was the best I've seen I felt it was the best environment I'd been to and I've got to have an understanding of everybody's role of everybody's world a pretty good level of what excellence look like in each area but I can't possibly know what all of my staff in the analysis department physical performance department, comms department, they're the experts.

6:21I've got to help them, give them the space to be able to do their job to the best possible level. And if everybody does that, then the accumulation of all those things will give us the best chance of winning. So it's about culture then to make sure that the people who you can't be managing on a day-to-day basis still are on the same wavelength as you? Yes, because in our organisation, it's slightly different to a club where people have a day-to-day role with the FA so they've got maybe work with the junior national teams maybe in other departments with the FA so our communications department have obviously got ongoing dramas of varying levels but then bringing all of that group together to work on senior team tournament planning camps so that when the players come in which obviously isn't on a day-to-day basis so again different to club the environment that the staff are creating is the best possible environment for the players to succeed so it sounds like you've got almost two teams there that you have to manage in gareth so you've got the on-field team of players that turn up and but the guys that are off it as well and how consistent is your approach with both of those two groups well I would hope very consistent in that I like the idea of empowering people but I recognize people have to be led and people have to be guided and they look to the leader for answers for approval for particularly in the moments of pressure where are we heading but everybody is responsible for creating the environment so we talk a lot about culture in every business, in every sport.

7:59I think decisions that we make set a lot of that culture. But then having the right people in the building, you know, it's cultures created by people. It's not everybody would have things on the wall, won't they? It's what you do every day. I can talk to the players about how I want things to be. If I then stand on the sideline and my behaviours on the touchline are completely different to that, they give the ball away and I'm crouching down like Basil Forty, then they're not going to think that it's okay to make a mistake or to to play without fear so people say sometimes footballers aren't intelligent but they're the savviest people that I know yeah and they would pick up on anything like that really quickly so how would you like your players and your staff to describe the culture you've created England firstly I want them to enjoy it We talked a lot about the shirt feeling heavy, the pressure, all the things that you can allow to be the narrative around the team.

8:58But fundamentally, how do we get people to want to come at every age group, be with England, enjoy the experience, want to come back? One of our big challenges now is we've got lots of boys that can play for two or three different countries. So it's not just we're England, we can't have the arrogance that everybody will just want to play. Boys have got options, decisions, family ties with other countries that are quite strong as well. So we've got to have an environment people want to come. I think if they feel there's a chance of winning, that can help as well. But I think wanting to be there, wanting to be part of something that they feel is a high level, is enjoyable that culturally is right i think that is very important to people which leads us then to if we go to the start of your career when we talk about culture there's a there's something that's often intrigued me about your story that you've a self-described shy kid from crawley that went into what from the outside looked quite a brutal dressing room at crystal palace of lots of street smart south london kids and what often intrigues me is from the moment you're going in there to leading them as a captain a number of years later while still seeming to retain your authenticity and your integrity would you tell us a bit about that journey yeah I suppose we'd moved around the country with my family but grew up school wise mainly in Crawley so a new town slightly out out the way but I mean people wouldn't say you know you're in the country but to the lads in South London that was in the country so went to a comprehensive school 1500 kids but my parents were always you've got to get your education right so worked hard but sport was always the thing that really lit me up so I got good o-levels it was okay so you're the swat and how are you going to fit in and I remember Mark and Ian writing Brightie sort of giving me some stick one day about that side of things and Steve Coppell sort of trying to put them in their place to protect me a bit but it was an environment where lads had had to fight scrap I'm from a working class family but I can't sit and say we were family it didn't have food on the table or some of those hardships that I know a lot of the players I am managing have gone through and a lot of the players I've played with have gone through so I almost had it had it well I'm going to prove that although I've not quite had it as tough I've still got the same motivation and the same desire which I think people are always trying to test and question when you're making your way so for me it was a brilliant environment because everybody had come from either through the youth system or from non-league or from lower divisions so the the they'd all been rejected and they all had a point to prove so as young players it gave us hunger drive desire um but we maybe lacked a little bit of belief in what was possible and without knowing what the end can look like or needs to look like I think you don't have that full understanding but obviously help to develop resilience in you that period particularly when you go in and there are questions being asked of you and I think we talk a lot about resilience on the podcast because it is so vital and it's a it's a hard thing to develop in people because you only become resilient through difficult times yeah i mean rejected from southampton when i was 14 as a school boy left out the youth team at palace after eight weeks being there and then constantly from then on anybody that's involved in sport as the athlete or performer it's a constant fight of injury form loss recovery mistakes on the pitch that lead to games being lost so dealing with that constant battle of criticism and keeping your confidence and fighting for your place and yeah I think that is just the environment that sport is so inevitably you can't read that in a book you've got to go through it it's painful but what it leads you to is is quite rich I think what does it lead you to then well I think you go full circle you don't you know you you now have the opportunity to help other people achieve more than I was able to and so you you have a better understanding of what that took and okay how can I apply that to help others which is going to be more rewarding in the end and you've got context and you've got balance you know if you knew at 20 what you know now you'd be a lot calmer in some of those situations because you know you can get there in the end but those doubts and insecurities actually drive you at the time alan who was our youth coach at the time who then became first team manager i remember him saying to me you'll get everything you want in life but not when you want it and not exactly how you'd like it to be and i actually think that's probably right because i think if you set your mind to a goal you'll get there in the end if you're really driven to do it you'll get there but because of all the things that will go wrong along the way it won't be when you want it you want you want it five years earlier and But then I wonder whether you don't even get it if you don't have those difficulties.

14:09You know, we all spend our lives going, I mean, you probably sit here now at the age you're at thinking, if only I'd known now what, or only if I'd known then what I know now as the England manager, I would have done this differently at Middlesbrough. I would have done that as a player at Palace or Aston Villa. But the fact that you went through those experiences means you're now able to sit here and reflect on that. That's the point, isn't it? Those difficult periods are the periods of growth, basically. yeah I was manager at Middlesbrough having literally stepped off the pitch the next day so enormous leap of faith by Steve Gibson who I'm really grateful for the opportunity but in terms of actually preparation for the role ridiculous really how can you possibly know and of course you're then dismissed as a did you think you were prepared because sometimes if you don't know what you don't know it's kind of well that's true you certainly think you're better prepared than you actually are and now I look at what I know now and how much I still feel I've got to improve to be the best and so you know how far off you were then yeah but also I also know we were doing a lot of things right and because you didn't have the evidence that that was going to get results and maybe in football sometimes you there are times where you do all the things right and you still don't get the result because it's such a low scoring game so you're doubting yourself and of course we're in a world where everybody else is certainly doubting you as well whereas now you've got 10 years more experience so it's like comparing myself as a 17 year old player as an apprentice to a 25 year old international as a coach a manager at 35 with no not a day's experience how could I have known everything I needed to know there was a question that really intrigued me on this go that I remember watching you uh um there was a FA Cup game at Manchester the United way, you played them a couple of days after playing them in the league.

15:56And I remember being at that game and seeing you and you looked like somebody that just wasn't enjoying it. You looked very different from the sort of public perception that I'd had of you. And yet when I see you now, say, in the World Cup semi-final, you look a lot calmer, you look more in control. So in that period from being a manager then to now what you know, what would you say has been the biggest learning that you've acquired in that time? That's a great question. because I think there's so much. Is Damien right, by the way? Are you different now? Yeah, because the level of stress then was enormous because everything I was going into was new.

16:34I'd never planned a training session really with senior players. I was working through my A licence with junior players. I'd never managed a group of staff, never had to deal with a transfer market, never had to deal with agents, never managed a board. You don't manage a board, but... Manage up. worked with a board not totally clear on the style of play in every detail that we wanted then what does that need to look like on the training ground so again I was fortunate I had some really fantastic people with me experienced coaches Steve Harrison Malcolm Crosby Steve Round Paul Barron so they carried me really through a lot of that I had the respect of the players because I'd been their captain but of course total change of dynamic because within days I'm having to make decisions on contracts and so when I look back the level of stress because everything's new once I'd lost the role I remember Steve Gibson saying to me you might feel relieved that this has happened and of course you're bullish and you think you know nonsense and then probably a week or so later I was thinking I don't miss being in that situation and for a long time I didn't think I would want to go back into managing because I think the brain is scarred and you don't want to go, you know, you don't put your hand on the fire again, do you?

17:51But then I started to do some work with the FA on youth development and building St. George's and it sort of rekindled my hunger for football. And because of the different experiences I had covering games with television, I knew the fulfillment would be coaching, helping other people to achieve. putting something in i think that's that's really interesting because it almost sounds like you're at a place now where you're so much more comfortable with who you are and what you've achieved that you can talk in a way and do things that you couldn't do when you first started as a manager so for example you can now sit here and say a big driver for you is improving people now if you said that when you were two weeks into the job at middlesbrough it would have taken a lot of bravery but also people would have questioned it whereas now you're able to say it's not just about winning a game of football it's not just about three points and I think that maybe that that sort of clarity of thought and that bigger picture like you've written a kid's book right to try and change the mindset of young people that's a brave thing to do when you're a football manager because people want to put us all in a box and I sort of get the impression that you're at a place where you're so much more at ease with yourself that you can speak in a much more honest way again I think it's a really good observation because I think when you're younger you feel you've got to conform more but I'm more rounded about having those life experiences and being bold with decisions so you're absolutely right I think you go on a journey where things happen in your life that you've stared over the abyss at certain moments and things happen family-wise or whatever that you think actually what's the worst that can happen professionally have faced that so why worry I've seen obviously England managers suffer and get ripped to pieces it's not a job that very often you come out of well but if that's my mindset going in we've got no chance because the team will pick that up they'll feel that so what might we achieve because actually we talk about pressure but where's the pressure coming from we've never won in 50 years so let's give it a go we might actually enjoy it we think that pressure is what leads us to success what do you know what i mean yeah yeah i i would have said it's the total opposite really so i've got to create an environment that relieves as much of that for the players and for the staff but also we've got to handle expectation because where we are now to where we were two years ago and expectation is different so we've got to live with that if we want to be a team that wins and is high performing then we've got to cope with that as well can we get into your decision making then just let's talk about that with that emboldened mindset you sit at home or with your coaches and you write down the england squad for the euros just before it goes to the press and everyone has an opinion on social media and everywhere else do you care what's your mindset are you anxious are you wondering what they're going to pick up on or are you really sanguine about the fact these are your decisions Well, the worst thing I think for any coach, if you speak to them, is having to make selection decisions.

20:59And you know, because having been a player, how desperate you are to be involved and how disappointing that call is. So you then know that there will be certain calls you make that will get more attention than others. And I think where we would sit as a team of staff coaches would be, well, nobody watches the players more than we do to the level of detail that we do. And at the moment that can be all encompassing because there's games every night of the week at six o 'clock, eight o 'clock, ten o 'clock. So, you know, there's times where I've got to take a couple of nights just to say, no, I can't watch a game tonight.

21:38Otherwise, they all just merge. But what it has meant is that we've never watched the players to the level of detail with the ball, without the ball. So people will have a view, but they won't know the full picture of how we want to play, how we work, what the cultural fit is. Are these lads that can be with us for 50 days if we're away and we can't see our families? how does the way that their club play map into the way that we play because we can't play like exactly how Manchester City play we can't play exactly how Liverpool play we would have elements of what those teams do because we can't ask the players to do something completely different so we've got to play to the strengths of the players but we've got to have clarity on how England are going to play that merges the strengths of all the players and covers the weaknesses that we have to get the best possible outcome.

22:28So what weighting would you put on ability then, Gareth? So like their footballing ability and how much of it as the type of person they are. So some of the points you mentioned of you're going to be holed up with these guys for 50 days in a camp. So like how they behave, how they conduct themselves. What weighting would you apportion to those two? I think ability obviously gets you into the room. The ability is what gets you recognised by talent spotters scouts whatever but then what determines how far you're going to go is the psychological the mental the cultural in the end the best players have drive they can perform under pressure they've got the hunger to come again they never give in they're relentless in those things i think what we would ideally then like are people who are team first as well Now, there's going to be a mix of motivations, frankly, for everybody.

23:24You know, everybody comes to work and we've got individual motivations. And that's fine because that is also going to help the team to perform better as long as those individual motivations aren't detracting from what we're trying to do. And if we've got to take a player off after 75 minutes, there's got to be respect for the player going on and the fact that our outcome is we're trying to win for the country in our instance or for your club whatever it might be so I think it's unrealistic to expect everybody to be thinking about the team all the time that's that's just not realistic but we've got to breed culture cultivate that as much as possible always my job is to bring it back to the team what does it mean for the team what did we learn from that how could we do that differently sometimes those decisions you can talk about sometimes when you make selection decisions or you choose players to play or not to play sometimes the group pick up why you know i think in any business you'd have members of staff that leave perhaps for cultural reasons that there's a decision made by the management and they're without saying anything the rest of the people working there would go well i think i kind of know why that happened so that does a job for you then doesn't it if the other players realise why someone's not been picked and they're a good footballer.

24:46Yeah, because again, players aren't stupid. They know why things happen. They know who's with the team. They know the energy drainers. They know the, you know, I'm talking in any team now. And I think the other thing that your senior players do a lot of the job for you as well because their day-to-day habits, the way they are, We're very fortunate in our most experienced players, Kane, Henderson as an example, captain, vice-captain. They're unquestionable in their professionalism. They're unquestionable in their preparation. They want the team to do well. Of course, they've got individual motivation, but there isn't a young player that could come in to the squad and watch those two and think they ducked the gym session or they ducked the recovery or not a chance.

25:38So when you've got those role models within the group, new players come in, they see how, you know, the first thing you do in a new group is how does it work here? How's it done? And the senior players create that. So somebody then that's had the good fortune of being in, say like your own 96 squad that is often spoken about for the strength of leaders, the amount of leaders that was in there. How does the current crop that you're now managing compare from a leadership point of view? well they're they're on the journey towards it really because in that team i played in the back four with tony and stewart who were both in their 30s by that point i think paul ince in front teddy sharingham and then alan shearer was my age gary neville was younger than me yeah but they were all leaders and even the guys that weren't captains of their clubs were leaders in how they played Steve McManaman, Paul Gascoigne, David Platt was captain.

26:39So incredible environment really with top coaches in Terry and Don. So the whole environment, it was like going on a soccer school for the summer because you learned every day. You learned something every day and you were surrounded by people who wanted to win, who drove, who if we were in a bad moment, we're going to stand up. And our guys are still going through a lot of those experiences. people like Kyle Walker now is in a Champions League final he's won the league three times all of those experiences in the end have a big impact on the national team because the level of pressure they're used to performing under the the matches the quality of the matches that they're used to playing in that in the end does impact what's possible for the national team because otherwise all of their high level games are with us under pressure and they're not prepared they haven't had that journey so in the last three or four years we've got a lot more players now who have won trophies who know what that feels like who've won at youth level with England so we're building we've started to beat some of those top teams now we've got to do it consistently and every time and I'm not sure you can fast track that process as frustrating as that will be because of course the expectations are that you know we go out and we win I think you you end up knocking on the door if we're knocking on the door and we're in the latter stages all the time when we move to St George's that was one of the things we talked about at every age group can we be in semi-finals finals if you're in those latter stages eventually you you learn how to get there and and I think that's where we have to aim to be all the time.

28:19So can you see a clear difference then between the England teams that you played in and the team that you now manage I messaged a couple of former England captains ahead of this interview just to say look what would you like to know and they they both had different sort of areas they wanted to focus on but both said I'd love to know how different the England team feels now to the teams that Gareth played in because the conversations I've had with former England players is they talk a lot about a fear factor playing for their country pulling on the shirt sort of filled them with a bit of dread because the pressure was so great and the success wasn't well yeah I think there's been different moments because I would say my experience with Terry in 96 and the lads there we had a brilliant time we played really exciting football where we had you know we're talking about talented players now but Steve McManaman won Champions League with Real Madrid I think players like him are really underestimated at how good they were and glenn similarly i think we played in a way but then what started to happen was as we went out of those tournaments normally somebody took the brunt of the problem so david beckham in 98 maybe phil in 2000 there was always a scapegoat you know that feeling personally kind of lived that a little bit um and i think there started to be well a feeling of if we go out but i'm not the one who's to blame that was almost the height of expectations and an achievement rather than actually we thinking about winning anymore so there was a period where it became can we go out in a way where we're not we don't get hurt such a dangerous mindset well Well, it's fear.

30:03Yeah, and I would say that was where we'd got to. And in a sense, coming in after the Iceland game, which of course was such a confidence-shattering experience for everybody, in some regards that was a good time to come in because how much worse can it feel for people? And maybe we can be a bit braver in what we push and things that we try to introduce. Although clearly we were taking the team at a time where that confidence had to be rebuilt and within any management job, you've got to keep winning matches to be able to make, to buy time to make the changes that you make. So that's why I think we, it was important.

30:48We found ways to win with the players that we had to keep qualifying for tournaments. We get to a semi-final, which was important. and now maybe there's a new group that can we can now build with this as well so is there still a fear factor or do you not sense that anymore well it's unrealistic to say to any sports person play without fear I mean what what is that it's a nonsense really because it's the hardest thing to do step over the line there's got to be some fear that drives performance as well but it's it's making sure that we're not consumed by that and making sure that that's not inhibiting us to a level that we're not actually showing how good we might be so one of the like techniques that we've spoken to other people on the podcast series has been this idea of conducting pre-mortems almost like looking at what's the worst that could happen can we handle it and then we've got the confidence to know that we can survive a trauma should that happen is that a conversation that you would be having with the squad looking at what could go wrong and how we prepare for those disasters?

31:54I think we've talked over a period of time I remember asking them before the game early on what are we going to do if we go a goal down and there was like a look of horror because it was almost you never speak about that you know you prepare so you prepare a team to play in every phase of the game with and without the ball but as soon as a goal is scored the game changes you know the the dynamic of the game changes the psychology of the game changes and it's almost like i played in lots of teams that we were really well prepared for while everything was at nil nil but then when a goal goes in at either end it's all it's up to us and so to actually talk about what are we going to do in those moments and staying calm and then of course you've got lived experiences, the longer you're with a team, you can refer back to games where, look, we've been in this position before.

32:49We've come from behind to win. We've led from the front and held the lead. We've won in these big matches. You can refer to those performances that are really clear pictures in the players' minds, I think.

33:07If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At MinMobile, their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS. I made the switch because I was tired of those ridiculous bills and sneaky charges from my old provider. With Mint, I'm paying$15 a month and getting the same high-speed data, unlimited talk and text, and coverage on the nation's largest 5G network. Honestly, the quality is just as good, if not better than what I had before. And the best part, you don't need a new phone. You can keep your current one, bring your number, and all your contacts.

33:42I use Mint Mobile and you should too. Ready to say yes to saying no? Make the switch at mintmobile.com slash HPP. That's mintmobile.com slash HPP. Upfront payment of$45 required, equivalent to$15 a month. Limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow, but 35 gig on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts.

34:22Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Post a job for free and get started today. at Capella University learning online doesn't mean learning alone you'll get support from people who care about your success like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve you'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program plus career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals a different future is closer than you think with Capella University Learn more at capella.edu And as a reflective learner, what would you say was the biggest takeaway that you experienced that you'll take into this summer's European Championships?

35:20I know we always look for a one-piece answer, but I just think there are a huge number of things. the biggest things for me are actually the things we did right and making sure that we continue to do those things right but evolve them so there are things that we know are the right things to do around the makeup of the squad or for example we'd like to give the we we involved families a lot last time the day after a game they were able to come in so we know that was the right thing to do but we won't be able to do it this time because of the COVID restrictions how are we going to navigate that how are we going to allow the players to be relaxed enough that it doesn't feel uptight performance environment because they can't get to see the family they can't we're at home and we can't get home we had more contact when we were in Russia so there were a lot of things that I think we did right I think the thing is we did we could have done better there'd be tactical decisions within the semi-final for sure there would be perhaps refreshing the team at certain times yeah we reviewed and we reviewed and we reviewed to the point where a few weeks after it I'm more depressed than when we lost it at the time but I think that you have to go through that you know you've got to live through that so we didn't come home patting ourselves on the back for best performance since whenever we're coming home thinking semi-final and actually how do we go further now how do we how do we improve how do we and who helps you Gareth in terms of for you as a head coach and who who's the one that sits with you and goes through a review of of your coaching style yeah there's there'd be a few different people so we have Steve Holland who is first team coach and my assistant I mean he's more than that really we've got such a trusted way of working it's remarkable really we didn't really know each other until I took the under 21s job I went to watch Chelsea work when Jose was there or it was actually Andre Villas-Boas and I saw Steve coaching and we chatted about England briefly and it just stuck in my mind and when I got the under 21s job I was thinking who would be the best person to come and work with these young players to complement what I can give them and And from there, we've developed a huge trust in the way of working that he will do a lot of the work on the pitch because he's a master in that area.

37:55And I'll do little bits and pieces there, but I can observe more and I can look at the fuller picture and I've got strength in other areas. So we would spend hours together. And I think we're very honest with each other on our feedback. we've got psychologists over the period of time we've worked with the team who i think are good at those sorts of observations how are you delivering meetings what messages are you giving you're fortunate in a role like i'm in it opens the door to speak with eddie jones is the two days with toto wolf you know he let me in on the pre-race briefing with lewis hamilton and so you what was your biggest takeaway from that small insight into the world of f1 well i loved the fact that when you walked in the office there's an f1 car in the middle of the office which is quite a bold statement in itself you can't do that with harry kane you can't really but it was a reminder that whether you're working in the commercial department we're all working to put that car on the road basically and to create this team and that goes back to what we were saying before that's how it has to be for our staff that every piece is important and quite often that importance is only recognised if it's not done correctly because people jump on why weren't they physically in the right condition why didn't the medical team sort that why didn't the commercial team get this bit right and it's underestimated when those things are done in the right way the little bits of value it's added to the performance of the team I think.

39:27I think there's another similarity actually with you and anyone that works in Formula One like Toto Wolff is the limited amount of time he gets with his drivers you know they're a day before the race so Mike Lewis Hamilton who's a busy guy there's lots going on Toto has to make sure that message that he wants to pass on is delivered as succinctly as possible can we just talk about the challenge of how little time you get with your players and how you create a culture how you give them an understanding of your England setup with such limited amount of time with them yeah I think with quite a few of this group I've worked with them since they were in the under 21s so a lot of players who had a quite an understanding of how we were and what we were trying to create but then I don't think you should be shy of repeating the the right messages now I know there's a balance there because players can zone out if you if you're going on too much but when you're not working with them all the time as soon as they come back in of course we get them quite often we're playing thursday they play sunday for their club they're emotionally charged from the game on the sunday so i can't give them huge amounts of information on the monday i've got to recognize where they are they're still decompressing the club game but i can start to nudge them into okay we're not just put the kit on now we've we're moving into england mode they actually pick up because they're pleased to be back together I know when I played with Viduka and Schwarzer they loved going home to play for Australia because they were back with their mates that they'd played with the junior level for years and it's the same with our lads they love of course playing for their clubs but they also so it's not I don't see it as club versus country it's club and country they come back in it's at the England club where they've grown up with each other they've played at junior level they've shared experiences over a period of time so i think naturally they start to sit and have dinner and that for me that was the hardest part of the autumn with having to do all of that part with masks on and can't sit for too long and hugely challenging for everybody those soft periods if you like are really important for you as well not just on the training pitch definitely i think things like meal times are critical we've got a brilliant chef and it's an opportunity for everybody to sit chat get to know each other better enjoy the food so there was a period where actually we'd got staff meetings booked in at mealtime during the world cup and i had to say that actually look respectfully i'm not having this because i want to sit and eat i'm missing out on the opportunity to maybe just go and sit with a player or a member of staff who i've not had time to see and also let's get together from it let's have one moment of the day where actually we're all just in together and we're chatting and you know an army marches on its stomach it it's a classic example of if it's not right everybody's pretty quick to say it's not right we're in a fortunate place where it's brilliant and I think it it adds to the culture yeah definitely I remember I was in Argentina a few years ago with a with a team and walking into a room and the coaches were horrified that the squad were all watching Love Island together that i remember having the conversation that said actually forget what they're watching it's the fact that every player is sat in that room they're engaging on a shared objective that that's where the strength of relationships are being 100 i'm not a card player but we used to play a game called hearts which is a sort of counting game and so i was playing with pierce and adams and teddy so teddy would be different but you know with piercey we were never going to be playing for more than a fiver that was for certain but each afternoon we would have a game of hearts for an hour a cup of tea and in those days you could have a scone with clotted cream at burning beaches which is now obviously not on an athlete's menu and we'd watch people walk through and we'd chat and gascoigne would walk past you know to play tennis and then we'd be playing and then gascoigne would walk past to play snooker with somebody else but you know we remember those experiences and we were chatting and we were chatting about football and what so you're learning about the game and so for your players to be together spending time together that's part of how they learn the game you know they'll learn by playing with good players in training playing against good players and chatting about the games and each other's experiences I think and knowing each other as well have you heard the episode we did with Ciel Khaleesi the spring not yet first ever black spring box captain and he sort of explains to us that the biggest thing is to get to the heart of his teammates, not the head of his teammates.

44:10Because then when you're up against it, 75th minute, three points down, need to go and score, you look at the guy next to you and he's not a teammate, he's a friend. And it's that extra 1 % you get from that relationship with them that actually means you get the score and you get the win. 100%. And of course, the more limited the time, the harder that is to get deep in that way, which is why some consistency with the group. It's hard then when you want to get into them quick and you have to look at them and think, bloody hell, he played in the Manchester Derby 12 hours ago. I can't do what I want, but you're desperate to start imparting messages.

44:46It's one of the biggest challenges of international football or international sport probably, I'm sure. You want time on the training pitch, but for example, in March, we didn't run a session for longer than an hour because we know physically where the players are. so we we don't want to break them we're not going to improve them physically so we've got to manage that it'll be the same this summer they might yeah we've got to refresh but we it's the psychological refreshing i think as much as the physical we won't overload them physically but psychologically what we've all lived through we've got to bear in mind not just what the football season's been but what personally they've all lived through what's going on with their families all of those things will potentially play a part in, for want of a better word, the animal that walks through the door.

45:33If we're not recognising that and the impact on their performance from that, then we're missing an opportunity to help them get the best out of themselves, really. There is a positive there, isn't there, to limited time with players. If you're a club manager and you spend 25 million quid on someone and two days later you decide you don't like them, you've got a five-year contract to deal with, you can make the decision that that person doesn't infect the group again and I guess you've had to make that decision in your time with England yeah and that's very difficult because there are moments where you're making decisions yeah so Wayne Rooney is one of the most honest people in terms of his view of his performance where he's at so I inherited Wayne at a time where he was in the process of leaving Manchester United really not in the team so I'm having to have a conversation with him and I played with him he was a young player when I was first with England I'm having to have a conversation with a guy who's one of the greatest players to play for England who I've got enormous respect for how he played but also how he dealt with this little period I had him because he couldn't have been more for the team more honest in his feedback more understanding of no look Gareth I'm not in the team at my club I don't expect to be in the team here so I hope I dealt with that in the best possible way but they're the sorts of decisions you're having to make to allow the next ones to come in and sort of clear the space for the younger ones to go and have their moment he would have been brilliant with the other players I know for a fact you could see the way he spoke to the other players really generous made the environment easier for them to come into do you understand the decision yeah absolutely because he knew he was starting to need more of a break he knew that he's not in the team at manchester united anymore he was when he went to everton at the start he was playing really well and i said to him look if I'm picking on selection you're back in so you know I never close the door to players I think that's always ridiculous why would I rule out the opportunity to pick a top player but then at that moment he said no do you know what I'm going to announce my international retirement I feel it's time for me to recover between games give time back to the family think about what's next which is obviously now looking towards coaching and those things but we then had the opportunity to bring him back for the game which created huge controversy because but i felt he deserved that you know we've not been good at that you know players played for england were then no longer picked so that was it there was no contact maybe you got invited back to a game listen i work now who said no i still play for england they never got a phone call never got a letter never got any contact to say what a career I yeah that's a matter that that for me was I couldn't believe it really we're conscious of that you know we've got to be better at that we've got to make the experience of you know we now present and I know other sports have done this for years but on the debut we present the first cap we've got legacy numbers now which I think again in other sports you know that's important if I'm a player that played 25 years ago and all of a sudden I get notification that by the way this was your legacy number and it's unique to you and only what are we 1200 people have ever played for england when we've done those things we bought former players back to present those shirts they loved it culture they wanted to be a part of it they were oh you're actually asking terry butcher presented gary cahill with his shirt for his 50th game it's quite difficult because terry's doing the radio so he'd have been criticizing gary probably but he loved the fact oh I'd be honoured to do it and and we underestimate actually what that means to the ex-players and some clubs do that brilliantly I think and we're getting better at it I think we can do more in that space and is there a deal breaker that would mean you wouldn't have somebody in the squad what are the kind of things that so when Jake mentioned that example of in a club you might sign somebody and within two days you realise they're not they're not going to fit is there any deal breaker for anyone you bring into an England camp that you just think you might be talented your talent has got you in the room but you're not going to fit here what kind of things would you look for yeah I think that if the traits you're talking about are there they're probably going to show up at their club anyway and so we're probably unlikely to select them because we'd have seen those behaviors on the pitch or we'd have seen those reactions when they're coming you know being taken off or you'd hear things that were going on the training ground so we've never brought anybody into a squad and I've thought this guy's a disaster we can't have him anywhere near but what will happen is some find it more difficult to be out of the team and I think if you're out of the team for a period of time you get to the point where although of course at the start everybody's desperate to be there it's another a week away from the family and maybe I could be training and preparing for my club and so I think some of those roles just need refreshing every now and then and that's where it's an opportunity to bring young players in to to refresh the group and bring energy to the group if it goes stale and there isn't that competition for places and the players that are in the team don't feel that pressure of actually there are people who are genuinely pushing now then I think we end up standing still a little bit and part of that challenge is are the players that think they're guaranteed to play are they feeling that because whatever we say the motivation of staying in the team competition for places I think overrides what what challenges I might give those players it's interesting you say that because I think that there is the public perception that some players have come into your England squad you've looked at them and thought brilliant player but I'm not having you off the off the field or you're not the right person but that isn't that isn't the case you know well look we like high performance low maintenance is the ideal we can go with high performance high maintenance because i think that's worth persevering with and working with low performance high maintenance i'd be less enthusiastic about so there's there are levels of what you're prepared to go with and i think and what the group how did the group see it you know Again, players recognise this.

52:19There's a young player that comes in, so Bukayo comes in from Arsenal. We don't know him really. We've seen him in the junior teams. He comes in, he has incredible humility. He's a talented player. He fits in with the group. The group are having him. The group think this is a boy that, again, they're assessing in training. Okay, there's another young one they've brought in. Is he going to be any good? Oh, okay. no he is he can play and and actually he's a good kid and he does the right things they test them off the pitch as well as on yeah absolutely because all of those chats over dinner and those meals and the other players are assessing them you know if their conversation is humble enough and they're asking about the other players and and they're following the right role models in the group and the the other players will be assessing that all of the time that's how we've worked for generations isn't it you'd have read sapiens i thought it's a fascinating book where that's how our communities form and teams are the same they they tell stories they learn off each other but there's there's a hierarchy being developed isn't there and there's a there's a team a bond a family bond developing and they're all seeing where each other sit in that i think interesting I guess what you're saying then is the door isn't closed to anyone who's high performance if you're high performance and high maintenance it's going to be a bit harder for you to do your job but as long as you're a high performance footballer the opportunity is always there kind of your own growth mindset means that the door's not closed on anyone agreed but the detail I would give there is high performance just doesn't mean talent as in technical ability there's no excuse for anybody coming in that doesn't have that work ethic if if our top attacking players can do that it's not just for the defensive midfield player to cover the ground and those players have got to perform well in the highest games under pressure so not just against the teams at the bottom of the league but for us it's more interesting when they're in the top of the table clashes because it's more closely aligned to if we're going to play France or Spain or whoever else, the big Champions League nights.

54:36So why have England managers in the past always picked from the bigger clubs? Because you can see the direct transfer from a Champions League semi-final to a big international game. And of course, whenever I'm releasing a squad, I'm always giving messaging that is for public consumption whilst trying to protect players. so I'm never going to talk through all the weaknesses of people in a public environment. But then that leads to people saying, well, he said this about so-and-so and he's picking that one who's not... So, you know, you can be accused of double standards, but I've got to accept that because I'm always going to protect the players in public.

55:17How would you describe you as a coach and where are you on that scale? What I know is I've got to be authentic to myself. in being authentic to myself I think there are different approaches you use at different times you know there are rare occasions I think it's rare because I don't think people respond to raised voices as much or aggressive challenge but there are moments where that has to happen I think in a dressing room to you might need a response of energy or and you've got to shake people out of the psychological state they're in but you've done that for a reason it's not that you've lost the plot at halftime and you're going in with a purpose and you know what reaction you're trying to get you've got to have different approaches with different players at different times and find out what they respond to and and how can we get the best out of individuals because I know that some wouldn't be able to handle that perhaps so I'm going to have to approach that differently someone really short sharp no fluff you know don't give me any nonsense just straight on the line others want me to you know lead in with a softly softly approach deliver the the difficult conversation on come on this needs to be better and then fluff it in a praise sandwich or whatever we would call it but some don't want that you know so would you deliver then two or three halftime team talks to different pockets of of that dressing room no we would deliver one talk but the approach we might take and again steve will speak at halftime as well so he'll follow my message and he'll pick up on the bits that i miss or he'll take a slightly different approach with somebody and short period of time so you need real clarity on the messaging, but also what emotional state are we trying to provoke in the team to start the second half?

57:18And they're all the considerations, I think, of a coaching team when you're dealing in that space at halftime. And do you tend at halftime to be head or heart? Like, are you sort your tactics out or are you more about fight and spirit to the players? I think the first point has got to be, I think sometimes heart can be overplayed. you know I was very much hard as a player and that's why I loved Terry Terry broke that down and normally issues in games the fans will often watch a game and say oh they weren't trying they'd given up they're not fit and actually normally there's a tactical problem that the team are struggling to resolve and it means that the game is not going well and therefore the energy is sucking out of them because they're losing belief so the legs aren't taking them because I've I've been that soldier now maybe on the odd occasion there's a moment where a team have had a heavy schedule and they've got to play at 12 o 'clock on a Saturday lunchtime and the first half just has lacked energy and there's got to be a livener but I think those moments are rare with top athletes we're seeing them perform unbelievably consistently with no fans in the stadium for 12 months in my head they're hitting an amazing level really we're not feeling that we've seen loads of top top games because I think the crowd adds so much to that but but I think on a consistency level considering they're having to find it all from within I think they've hit amazing levels because you know people that aren't involved in elite sport from the outside looking in we think everyone's like Churchill we think you stand on a box and you ball at the players and you do it all the time 24-7 full of energy you're talking about a different kind of management sometimes it's like that other times it isn't the importance of quiet leadership has been downplayed for a long time do you think that in elite sport now we're finally understanding you don't have to be a loud show-off to be a successful leader i think in life yeah we're recognizing that business top businesses sports every industry you can think of i think people are recognizing it doesn't have to be the alpha male that when i was captain of crystal palace at 23 i wanted to be first in the running last in the bar you know I felt I had to achieve all of those things to be able to lead each little part of the group so and now I recognize by the way I've got to be out the bar so all the others can enjoy themselves but but it's it doesn't have to be that way and actually it's a driver for me that people think because maybe I would appear a bit calmer a little bit more thoughtful that I don't care as much or I'm not as passionate about it so it's a driver for me to prove to people you know that that does stir me there's another way and I think what we see in our league is rich with some of the best coaches in the world they've all got different ways but they've got to be themselves it's got to be the way that's authentic to them and I think as soon as you veer from that people smell that a mile off if you're not if you're not yourself I think um we should really make a point of and just highlight is the fact that you're getting players who two days previously were hearing from Jurgen Klopp or Pep Guardiola, the most celebrated, most successful managers the world has ever seen.

1:00:40And you then get those players. It's so easy for you to think, right, I need to be loud and proud and bombastic. And I need to show off and remind them of what I bring to the table. It's much harder to be spoken like this, thoughtful, considered a bit quieter, but authentic. But actually, if you're not authentic, if you're not totally the you that you've become now, not the you that you were when you were the Crystal Palace captain, if you're not this, you will never be successful and you won't enjoy it. Yeah, and look, I'm watching Manchester City play and the level he's taken those players to, people will say they've spent whatever, but Pep has taken the best players and being able to get them to do things that other coaches can't.

1:01:27So you've got to have a real appreciation for that as a coach. So of course, in our head, you could sit there and think, well, what we deliver better be good because these lads are getting a high level of coaching at their club. And I know there'll be people on social media saying, blimey, we've got all these good players and this nugget's in charge of them. and so you've got to keep proving yourself you've got to keep improving and proving yourself make sure that what we're delivering to the players is the highest possible level because that's what they get on a day-to-day basis and if our level as a group of staff towards the players isn't right then they'll be on to that really quickly and they'll expect us to play in a certain way to be coached in a certain way to be looked after in a certain way but we can also be different because it's England and we're together for longer and we're living together and we're going to live as a family for 45 days and I know that happens at a club but not that you're living and eating every meal together and you know in the last world cup we had family illnesses we had births we had you you're able to support players that actually that's I love those moments because we don't get that we're not with the players often enough and and that's where you can really create an environment that you want.

1:02:50But I know that you've described yourself in the past, Gareth, as being an introvert in many ways, that your energy comes from spending time in your own company. So when you come together for an intense period like that, how do you almost protect yourself, look after your own energy? Again, very good question because in the shorter camps, I don't do that very well because I'm probably thinking six in the morning till 11 at night you know I might still be in meetings at 11 at night which you wouldn't at a club but of course if I've got two or three hours in the evening where we're not preparing the training or we're not talking about the opposition I'm thinking I can have a half hour here with this player or half hour with that player and just have a chat and find out what's going on with his life and whereas when we're together for a longer period obviously you can space those conversations there's more time that you don't feel that you've got to fit those things in as quickly so I found in Russia I needed to give myself more of those moments of hang on a minute you've got training you've got meeting with this one you've got meeting about that you've got a press conference you need to give yourself half an hour here maybe that's to go for a run or something to clear your head but I've got to give myself that space yeah so interesting we've reached the point of our quick fire questions which I'm sure you've heard before so I'm looking forward to these answers right three non-negotiable behaviours that you and the people around you must buy into I felt that respect is huge and probably covers a lot of the areas really because it's respect for everybody the team ethos the lady on reception your team mate if you're coming off the pitch respect for the team mate that's coming on that encapsulates timekeeping encapsulates preparing professionally for a game so i think it's sort of the bedrock of everything really and the only other one i i felt was trust in that yeah there's got to be an agreed integrity to the way we work we're working with top people we're privy to incredible information about individuals lives that of course going into a major tournament would be incredibly valuable so if we operate without integrity at any level i'm talking staff mainly here then that would be hugely damaging and i think that integrity in any business would be would be critical you've got to you've got to be able to trust people so can you give our high performance community one key book recommendation that's particularly helped you i mean i love reading podcasts have obviously become a different i've got to thank you on behalf of by the way everybody that listens because you know you played a massive part in getting me through lockdown to be able to listen to the messages you brought and i would think there would be a lot of coaches and a lot of people in the public who would feel similarly actually the timing of how everything happened for me to to actually go for a walk for an hour with the dogs and and put my you know sometimes I like to just listen to what's going on in the world but actually I found through that period it was really powerful for me so it's one of the reasons I was really keen to come and speak because it was almost yeah thank you for for delivering that I've forgotten the question I mean I think there have been when I was finishing plan I read seven habits of highly effective people and then yeah and then there there are lots of books so I was always into those management so good to great um so there are clues in so many of these different books aren't there that it's sad but I'm always then relating everything I read to how would this work with the team or how would this work with my kids or so there's almost never a switch off which is in some respects a bit sad you know you're watching a film and you're thinking oh that might align a relationship thing there and can't you just you know I can see my phone can't you just enjoy the film and get on I've got two Damien's at home without boosting his ego too much they're fascinating because we're you're searching for small messages that can help you improve how important is legacy to you i think we should have the desire to leave organization club whatever it is that we're involved in in a better place than we found it so in that regard yeah very important i was involved in the project building St George's Park I was involved in some of the restructure of academies have been involved with the youth teams with England so those things ultimately have been as important to me as what I'm doing now with the senior team because we've left things there or we've started things there that can grow and should benefit England for years to come so I think that's important when I left all of the clubs I was at in this strange way I hoped I'd given them value for money in that Palace gave me an opportunity they made a profit selling me Villa paid money for me we actually had a fairly successful period they made a profit Middlesbrough made a loss because I was too old but we won the first trophy in their history and I had eight years there player and manager we played in a European final so so I hoped that whenever they looked back they felt that he gave everything he had and that would be important but I didn't there's a Wolfmanian statue I don't want there doesn't need to be a Gareth Southgate one at Middlesbrough that part of it isn't important because I know the day I left Middlesbrough you're gone really you'd like to think sometimes as a player oh you know I'm club this or that but the reality is the next ones are in you know we talk about the shirt with England we've got a great guy called Owen Eastwood who talks to us about identity and that sort of southern hemisphere idea, especially the Maoris, this is your moment in the light, in the spotlight, and then it moves on.

1:09:14And that's how it is, I think, your career. You should do your bit, but you know you're leaving it hopefully better for the next people. But then it's their moment and we're out of the way. And finally, what's your final message or piece of advice that you'd give for anyone listening to this who wants to live a high-performance life? I did a book for younger people that was called Anything Is Possible. Why did I do that? Two things, really. One, I do a lot of work with the Prince's Trust, and so I've seen kids in all sorts of different environments face all sorts of challenges, come through real difficult times, and go on to achieve.

1:09:57So I firmly believe that no matter what the circumstances, no matter what you've faced the the title does apply and the second part was I know I've learned a lot of things I think might help young people at any given time and because of the role I'm in they might be interested in hearing that message it won't be different to a message they've had from their parents or from a teacher or but to hear it from a different voice might land and might resonate. So that's the beauty of the platform you have if used responsibly as the England manager that it's not because it's me, but it's the role and what that role entitles you to do or allows you to do.

1:10:45So it would be go for it in life. You know, you can get there. There'll be enormous barriers. A lot of people will knock you. There will also be a lot of people in the background going, go on, get in there. you know people like yourselves who i know will people to do well and love celebrate we don't enjoy people being successful enough do we you know it's like how do we you had joe malone on i've met her a few times fascinating lady and she's worldwide name brand what things she's created we're an amazing country really the size of our country the things we've invented the the the achievements we've made is way beyond where we should be given the population.

1:11:27And so we should celebrate that. And yeah, so I think for youngsters go for it. I probably lacked a bit of confidence when I was younger and didn't go for things as wholeheartedly as I would now. And maybe you see the time ticking and you think, actually let's just go for it. Thanks very much for your time. Pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.

1:11:52and that brings us to the end of this conversation look i hope you enjoyed hearing once more a conversation we recorded with gareth a couple of years ago now but a conversation that remains as relevant as ever please hit follow hit subscribe keep on checking out conversations here on high performance and keep on sharing them with people because the bigger that we can grow this platform the more impact we can have on people's lives remain humble curious and empathetic and we'll see you again soon.

1:12:43Wix. It's where website creation meets AI and where your boldest ideas become real. It just takes one platform to build a site that looks great and does everything you need it to. And it just takes one person, you, to start taking care of business like a 10-person team. With AI tools for creating an entire website from scratch or testing new ways to make money, Wix is there with you from day one. Try it out now at Wix.com. For a limited time at McDonald's, get a Big Mac extra value meal for$8. That means two all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun, and medium fries, and a drink.

1:13:21We may need to change that jingle. Prices and participation may vary. At Capella University, learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success. Like your enrollment specialist, who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.