Gary Lineker: How Feeling Like a Fraud Made Me One of England's Greatest

0:02One of the many chats that we had just before he passed away, I was about to have said, Dad, I better go now, it's getting late. And he said, no, no, no, sonny. And as I went, he went, I love you. And he was like, whoa, yeah. And I went, love you too, Dad. And I got out and I got in the lift and I was gone. Believe you me, by the way, I wasn't the only one that was in awe of Diego Maradona. He was that much better than everyone else. I just can't really comprehend how you can not have a degree of empathy towards people having to flee their own country. And anyone who wants to have a pop at me about that, I don't think they're worth the time of day.

0:45What separates a good footballer from a truly great one? Talent's got to help, and hard work of course matters, but our guest today believes his greatest asset was neither of those things. Gary Lineker, the golden boot winner at the 1986 World Cup, 68 goals for England and one of only four players in history never to have been booked. And for three decades, he's been the face of football on British television. In this fascinating conversation, Gary tells us about the terrifying manager who pinned him up against the dressing room wall after he'd scored two goals and what that moment really taught him for life.

1:24He opens up about what it was really like inside Barcelona at the peak of his powers and he shares the Des Lynam lesson that quietly shaped 30 years of his TV career. But underneath all of it is a man who spent most of his career convinced that he was blagging it and who believes that his greatest asset was never his right foot, it was his mind. I'd like to welcome to High Performance, the football and broadcasting legend, Gary Lineker.

1:55I think High Performance, personally, is if you can perhaps overachieve and do better than perhaps people would expect, although I always think your own expectations are far more important than other people's expectations of you. being successful and ultimately being happy with your levels of success. I think a sustained high performance is also consistency related. So I think that's important to do it over a long period of time. Of all of those things, are you most proud of the fact that you have had consistency, whether it was in your football career or in your broadcasting career? Yes, possibly.

2:34I think that's probably fair. I think what happens is you obviously learn what, I mean, I've been fortunate enough to do pretty well in two different spheres, although they're both obviously related because they're both, you know, the one consistent in my entire lifetime is football. So they're both related around football. But I think, you know, people often say, you know, what were you better at and stuff like that? But I think I always say I was born, I think I was born to be in the box and I kind of learned how to be on the box. And I'll end up in a box not long. I've been around that long.

3:12But I'm kind of proud of the longevity I've had in football and proud that I've made something happen in terms of television that I probably wasn't a natural at it, certainly not at the start. So I had to, you know, football kind of came easy. I knew what I was doing. It was just, you know, obviously you still have to work hard and give it everything. But it was, you know, I had some kind of gift. whereas TV-wise I understand the sport and I understand football but I didn't understand television. So I think that the longevity I've had in TV makes me perhaps prouder in a way because it was harder.

3:51So can you tell us about your early life then, Gary, growing up in Leicester? We just spoke off camera about it. We spoke there about your dad being a market trader and that's not an easy job. You know, it's long hours, early starts, etc. and you've just referenced the importance of hard work. What other kind of lessons were you picking up at that young age that have still continued to serve you well? It's difficult to remember that much of my childhood. Most of it was playing football, but I think in terms of work ethic, that came from my dad. I mean, he lived life as well. He'd get up at three, four in the morning, He'd go to the wholesale market in Leicester to buy all his produce.

4:39He'd then go to the market stall. I mean, Leicester's a famous outdoor market. I think at one time it may still be the biggest outdoor market in Europe. And he used to, you know, then he'd go to the stall. He'd set all his stuff up, put all the oranges, the apples, the strawberries, the bananas, whatever it is. And then he'd be serving customers all day. He'd get home, I don't know, 6, 6.30 in the evening. He'd do his paperwork before and he'd have some dinner and then he'd fall asleep on the couch. He'd have a day off a week and he'd play cards for 24 hours, solid drinking whiskey and stuff. But he's, you know, he worked all hours.

5:19And I mean, it was hard. I mean, especially, you know, winter when it's freezing cold, it's outside. And I think what it did do for me, though, was make me more determined to be good at football because I didn't really want to follow in his footsteps to escape it subconsciously, I think. But yeah, I learned a lot of lessons from my father. My mother was kind of, she was very calm. That's where I get my personality from, the fact that I'm very kind of stable. I don't get too carried away, neither up nor down, very easygoing. I don't have a temper. I never saw my mum lose her temper either. Whereas my brother's more like my dad.

5:57So you said you learned a lot from your dad. What would you describe as the key things you learned from him? Well, people often talk about the fact that I never got booked. I never got a yellow card or a red card in my whole career. And I go back to it. I remember one incident that I remember really well is that I was playing again. I must have been about 14 at the time. And I was scoring a lot of goals by that stage. And I think the referee gave two or three decisions that I didn't agree with. And I swore at the ref. and I you know and my dad walked onto the pitch grabbed me by the scruff of the neck and said right you ever do that again you will not play football and he took me took me off the pitch in front of all your mates in front of all my mates it was like he was like whoa and was he just I think no no he was just a parent he said you don't you don't talk you don't talk to referees you don't talk to anybody like that and just scruff of the neck boom in the van home he wasn't a coach but he used to take a team around and we always sit in the back of the van all over the place, the whole team.

6:58And how would you describe your relationship with him? I was quite moved when I heard you say on another podcast that the only time he said, I love you, was as he was dying. Yeah, just before. Yeah, it was, and we were always very close. I mean, he was, I mean, he would say that he was proud, you know, occasionally. And, you know, I know that he got a lot of pleasure out of watching me play in particular, which was important. And it's true. I mean, when he was in his, when he ended up getting lung cancer, which wasn't overly surprising that he'd get that because he used to smoke about 60 to 80 a day of those things without any tips on.

7:41So it was, you know, it wasn't that surprising, but, and he was kind of phlegmatic about it. But we, you know, I used to go up to Leicester to, and particularly towards the latter stages, I was up there every other day. I'd get a call, We're not sure he's going to, you know, so I'll go and then back down. So I was up and down. And in that time, we had to have more kind of meaningful conversations than we probably ever had in our life because everything before was just fun and like banter or whatever you want to call it. And then we had these, you know, conversations. And I mean, one of them was, you know, I mean, when my parents were, when I was at school, when I was, well, obviously 10 years old, because I passed the 11 plus, but we just moved to a house in a place called Kirby Muxlow, which was outside the centre.

8:31So it was in the county. So when I passed the 11 plus, there was only one school that you could choose from. There's only one grammar school in that particular area. But they didn't play football there. So my dad said, well, we can't have that. He said, that happened to me when I was young. He said, I'm not going to allow that to happen to you. So he said, we'll move. So I said, oh, right, fine. And I went to live with my grandparents for six months to enable me to go to what was then City of Leicester Boys Grammar School. Obviously, no grammar school's around now. It's got to be a certain age to remember the 11 plus.

9:07So I lived with my grandparents for six months, and I remember having a conversation with them. I said, Dad, that was a hell of a thing to do. I was like 10 years old. well, you know, you must have, and I remember him saying, he said, yeah, yeah. He said, no, I couldn't let that happen to you. And he said, I could see your talent. I said, you know, did you know, did you know that I was going to be, because I, because I never did. I, even when I was 22, 23, 24, I never, I just thought I was blagging it. And my dad said, I always knew. And I said, well, you could have told me. And, and it was, and then this time with one of the many chats that we had just before he passed away, probably the last coherent conversation I had with him.

9:50I was about to say, Dad, I better go now. It's getting late. And he said, no, no, all right, sonny. And as I went, he went, I love you. And he was like, whoa. And I went, love you too, Dad. And I got out and I got in the lift and I was gone. I was crying. And suddenly, eight nurses and people came in the lift. and it was like, are you all right? Yeah, I'm all right. I'm sure they used to see people crying in hospitals, but it was moving. It meant a lot because, you know, that generation, they didn't share their feelings very much. I think it's changed now. I'm totally different from my kids than that, but it's just how it was.

10:29And how much of that young life then was about trying to impress your dad or trying to get that nod of approval from him? Probably a lot of it, really. You know, I think most of us, we, you know, we look up to our parents. And then eventually when we get adults, we work out that they've got weaknesses and foibles as well. But yeah, absolutely. I'd always want to impress, you know, my dad. My mum used to come and watch my granddad as well. My granddad played for the army, for the British army. It's kind of just before the war or even during it, I think. So, you know, he was a really good footballer.

11:07So that's probably where I get certainly the speed from because he was rapid. So, yeah, I think you'll want to please your parents. And I was always the same, even when I was a professional.

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12:14Honestly, the wireless service is just as good as the traditional big carriers. So keep your own phone and number, activate with eSIM in minutes, and start saving immediately. No long-term contracts, no hassle. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash HPP. That's mintmobile.com slash HPP. upfront payment of$45 for three months five gigabyte plan required equivalent to$15 a month new customer offer for the first three months only then full price plan options available taxes and fees extra see Mint Mobile for details See one of the things that stood out when I was reading about your young life as well Gary was just the variety of sports that you did as well so you were a good level cricketer you were a really good snooker player as well how important do you think that variety of doing different sports rather than just focusing solely on football was for your eventual career?

13:13It's hard to know because that's how I did it, so I've got nothing to compare it with. But I don't think it's that uncommon for someone who reaches the high level of sporting excellence to be good at other sports, because obviously there's a certain hand-eye coordination, all those kind of things, certainly spatial awareness, that sort of stuff. I always thought I'd make it cricket, not football, when I was a kid. I mean, I was very small. I didn't reach puberty until I was 17, which was embarrassing at times in the shower when I joined Leicester, but I used to hide and sneak in the little shower at the end.

13:46So, yeah, so I didn't really grow until I was, which is, I think, why I was slow to reach the top in football. So I wasn't like, you know, Michael Owen or Wayne Rooney or many of the young players we see today that emerged in their teens. I didn't, it was 2021 before I started to become a regular at Leicester. In cricket, I honestly believe I'll make it cricket. You know, I kept in Leicestershire schools right. I played in the England Schools Festival. But I loved cricket. Did you meet a moment where you had to make that decision then? I suppose so, but not really, because football's opportunity just came along.

14:24I think I was about 12 years old when I got spotted, and I used to go Tuesdays and Thursdays after school, and then Saturday mornings if we didn't have a school match. um, to training at Leicester, what would be called an academy nowadays. And, um, and then I got, I had trials when I was 16 and they said, we're going to take you on as an apprentice. And then cricket took a back seat, really. That was it. So it was just the opportunity that came along first was the one. I've got no regrets about that. And we have lots of teachers and lots of parents that listen to this podcast. What advice would you give to parents of talented youngsters or teachers?

15:01who are looking to get the best out of their young people to really empower them but not overall them? Just encourage them, really, I think. That's what I go. I mean, one of my pet hates in life was watching my, not because I was watching my boys, watching my boys play football or cricket or rugby, whatever it was they were playing, were the parents on the touchlines or even the coaches at times because everything's so negative. Don't mess about with it there, boot it, go out there. And you just thought, no. And these kids just want to have fun. And if you've got talent, if you're too critical of them, you'll knock it out of them.

15:40You're either not the love of the passion of the game, so therefore they won't play anymore, or you'll knock their confidence, so they won't perform as well as they possibly could. I watched my four boys all play all different levels. George, my eldest, by his own admittance, he wasn't very good. in fact summing up parents I had one woman come up to me a mother of one of the players she said oh is that your lad up front there isn't it I went yeah that's George she went oh I thought it would be better than that so it's you know you get that kind of nonsense on touchline everything's like negative so you know the advice I would always give them is just to be positive I used to I just sat on or stood usually on the side of the touchlines watching them for years and years and years never said a word I'd clap if they did well when they say and then when after the game I'd say oh you did really well just encouragement and how much of a challenge was it being an elite performer and being a parent at the same time we have a lot of messages from people saying I want to give 100 % to my family life I want to give 100 % to my career I'm not sure how and what to do well I think the fortunate thing about being a footballer or even involved in football in the way I am now is that um as you will know yourself I mean doing a similar job is that even though you do work hard there's a nice balance to the life there's a lot of home time and and I think that that was important it's not like you'd work in every day yeah so there is a nice balance and I feel I feel blessed that because I've watched my kids grow up and spent a lot of time with them um in that process can we talk Talk about when the football career started then and you ended up at Leicester and Jock Wallace was the man in charge.

17:26What did that period teach you? Jock was great for me. Yeah. I mean, tactically, it was, you know, from a bygone age and it was, you know, long ball and up and at him stuff. But he's a hugely significant person in my career. not necessary for my football but for how to live my life outside of football and how to give myself the best possible chance to succeed he was a terrifying individual he came down when I was I think about 17 18 and I was starting to make a bit of progress and the first time I ever saw him was he I think he got the manager's job on a choose and then we had a like a Wednesday night reserve game at Filbert Street and we're playing the game and it came in at half time and then Jock came in at half time and this huge imposing figure and he walked through the door and he was cursing you, fuck away you fucking useless little, and I was thinking, and he was looking at me and he walked up to me and he picked me up behind the scruff of the neck, put me against the dressing room war he's going you get running you wee lazy English little shite all this stuff and I was going I wouldn't mind it but I scored two goals in the first half we were 2-0 up and needless to say I didn't do much in the second half I was a gibbering wreck and then at the end of the game he came in again and he went my office 9 o 'clock in the morning forgive me for the terrible just Scottish accent it's not bad so I thought I thought that was it I thought my career was gone so I was finished but I got there about quarter to nine and I sat outside his office like a naughty boy waiting to see the headmaster and eventually 15 minutes or so later he said laddie go in sit down so I sat down like this and he says and I was trembling trembling and he just said I want to say one thing you actually were trembling I was trembling I was definitely trembling terrified thought I was going to be showing the door and he said I just want to say one thing you were magnificent last night.

19:37I said, I beg your pardon. You were magnificent. He said, but I just wanted to make a wee point, Maddy, that you've always got to give a little bit more. Let that be a lesson in life. And I thought, oh my God. I thought you could have told me last night. But, and then, then he became very much, not a father figure because that's because I had a father figure, but he became important because he, he, he would be, he'd lecture me about how to, you know, you don't go out, don't go out drinking after a game. And I went after tonight, don't go, you know, you'll have your times when it's the right moment after a Saturday game.

20:11And he was, he said, you've got a chance. And I, and I lived, I, you know, I still went out occasionally, but I wasn't like so many of the others that will go and drinking pints and all this all night and going out and stuff. So I think, I think that was important because I think I, he got and helped me to understand how to get as a sportsman anyway how to get the best out of myself but I was going to ask Gary like how does like a grammar school lad going from the environment like what you had at school and in the cricket environment to going into that where resilience is almost expected of you how did you learn to cope in that environment then this is a good question but it's a difficult question to answer because i i don't i don't honestly know i mean you're you're right and you know i talked about jokingly about you know i didn't reach puberty i'm walking in the shower and i was genuinely you know because you you don't want to show any kind of weakness um and stuff like that so and you know it was tough and i in those days the it was an apprenticeship so you half the time you'd be spending either cleaning dressing room or cleaning players' boots.

21:22I mean, I had the job of the first team dressing room, which was good, but it was also tough because, you know, some of my heroes were there. And, you know, Frank Worthington was there for a few months at some point and, you know, Mark Wallington, the old Leicester goalkeeper and so many, you know, of the people and players that I'd kind of worshipped as well. And I was there cleaning up the dressing room and it was, you know, they treat you, treat you. Yeah. And the thing is, I mean, now it seems ridiculous, but nowadays every team, they have like a million kits, don't they? Fresh kit every day, new shiny boots.

21:58In those days, they got one set of kit for the season for training. So what we did on the Monday, I trained, they finished the training, whatever, you know, either sweaty or stinky or freezing or covered in mud. And then we used to have to put it on these hangers and then take them all into the drying room and they just dry overnight. So you can imagine the stench by Thursday and Friday. And then we had to, you know, you had to kind of wipe the dressing room floors and mop them and clean the toilets and do all these kinds of jobs, which I did until I was 18. And then again, it gave you a thing about, I really need to make it a football customer.

22:39But did you ever have a backdoor, like the idea that actually I'll go and give cricket a go. Well, I honestly thought if it didn't happen, I would, I would, I mean, I carried on playing. I always played right throughout, you know, when I was footballing, I played right throughout my career. And I played one Thursday, which I never normally do. But I used to play for, when I was playing for Tottenham, I used to live in St. Johnswood. So I used to play for a club called Cross Arrows. who play pretty much every day in September. It's like a challenge. And for me, that was perfect because they'd play on a Tuesday or Monday.

23:18So I could fit it in around if I got a free week. And then I played on this Thursday one day, which I wouldn't normally do when we got a game on a Saturday. So I went and played in the afternoon after training and I got a few runs and then we fielded. And they said, come on, Gary, have a bowl. And I said, I don't bowl. I don't want to bowl. Because the game was kind of meandering to a draw. I said, I don't want to bowl. I don't bowl. They said, go on, have a go. And I went, all right. So I came in. The second ball went like that, and my side went twang. I pulled him. I thought, oh, no. And I was struggling.

23:53And I went in training the next morning. I think we were playing Villa on the Saturday. And I came in and said, I've got to go and see Terry. I said, Venables. And I said, Terry. And he went, what have you done? And he said, I've torn my side. He said, how did you do that? And I thought, do I lie? And I thought, no. I said, I did it playing cricket. He said, what? He said, that's it, no more cricket, no more cricket. I said, you can't. I said, no. I said, no more bowling, Terry. And we came to a deal on no more bowling. So I always played. In fact, probably my favourite, you can forget all the World Cups and all that, probably one of my favourite days ever.

24:31It was a Monday and it was the week before the start of the new season. and we had a friendly at White Hart Lane in the evening. I think it was against West Ham, not sure. Wouldn't be much of a friendly then, would it? No, yeah, but it was just a warm-up game, you know, so it doesn't matter. But anyway, so on the night before, on the Sunday, I get a phone call from a guy called Dave English who ran the Bunburys, which was a charity cricket club. But he also organised a lot of testimonial cricket games for players. He did a lot of good, wonderful guy. He said, I've got a game tomorrow, great game at Finchley, just up the road from you.

25:13He said, can you play? I said, I can't, I can't play tomorrow. So I've got a game. So I've got a game. I said, I can't, I'd love to play. He went, oh, we've got so many players like this and that. He's playing this. And I said, I can't. I said, I can't, just can't, I'd love to. He said, what about, what about if you bat first, you can open, when you're out, you can go. He said, I just need a name. I need another celebrity name. I went, Christ, go on then. So I went along. And the first over bowling was Courtney Walsh, right? So I'm there. And he goes off this ridiculous long run-up and then comically bounces it miles over my head as a joke.

25:56And then the next ball, he goes off to about a three-yard run and he's going to bowl. And I went, Courtney, I said, would you give us a proper over? You know, like a proper foot. and he went you sure man I went yes so I thought go on then so he goes so he goes on his normal run he comes out and the first boy it's like Christ he went past the back before I didn't see it second one it was similar he was sensible he was kind of bowling it just full length and outside the off stump he didn't want to hurt so second ball I'd left and then then I got a couple of forward on the last ball of the over I just thought well he's pitching it I put a front leg and I stroked it and it went right through the covers for four and it was like whoa so it was one of those days where i just couldn't miss i ended up 112 not out at lunch i'm sweating no 112 not out at lunch i was thinking and i said dave i gotta go he said no go on you've done me you've done me proud off you go so i went off and played that night it's called a trick yes what a day it's the best day that is a high performance forget the world cup that was a high performance did you buy a lottery ticket the way i should have done yeah it was amazing there is an interesting recurring theme though isn't there when we when we look back over all that period whether it is your dad pulling you off the football field in front of your mates whether it's hiding in the shower at the end because you were a late developer whether it is jock making you shiver in his office with panic all of that is resilience building and i wonder whether we create resilient enough young people these days you know damien and i talk often about our frustration with helicopter parenting where we're all addicted to hovering over our children, smoothing everything in front of them.

27:33And all of those are really good lessons that the struggles and the failures and the low points and the hard times were the bits that created you. It's hard to know, isn't it? Because there's no kind of guidebook, is there, for parenting when you just get this little thing, don't you? And off you go. So it's a really hard one. I don't know and I often you know I often think about why have I why have I been so successful why have I genuinely think many many times why have I been so lucky you know I always think sometimes because I'm not religious I'm you know I don't mind admitting I'm an atheist I don't believe any of that stuff but I do wonder sometimes whether there's some other planet out there whether they're playing a playstation game or something and we're just part of their game and whoever I've got has been a really good player and has given me one hell of a life you know I do wonder why I you know it's just you know obviously I was given a gift to play football and I've I had a good work ethic but so many things have happened to you know like I didn't get injured I didn't you know it's all um until the very end of my career um so I had so much good fortune I think it's all it's always important to did you feel lucky even as a young man did you feel that sense of fortune or was it more in hindsight i was kind of without being good at sport life would have been very different for me because i was you know i think i would have been bullied at school i was they were kind of marginally that way anyway because i was like you know this tiny geeky kid with like darkish skin and i pretty much racist abuse although i'm not i'm you know i'm as english as they come yeah all the time all the time even in professional football i had that a couple of times i wouldn't ever name any names yeah um so i got that kind of nonsense which was a bit weird But, you know, whether that was part of something that made me, I don't know.

29:20But other people might not be able to handle that. But I think by, you know, how you, my greatest strength in my, to me, was not, you know, not my right foot, not my this. It was my mental strength. And I always had that. You know, I was never, you know, even if I had a shocking game or things were not going very well, it never really got to me. so even if we if we fast forward a bit into your career in that build-up turn 1986 when you're in the team but you haven't scored for a while there's lots of media speculation as to whether you deserve your place how were you processing all of that that you in like i've seen the documentaries where it wasn't like like like the hotel rooms in mexico were quite austere you've not got the ability to phone yeah that's what you're used to i mean football changed dramatically and it was very different back then but it's so much how it is and how it was that that was you just got on with it but the bit about you personally is a bit that i'm interested in of how did you cope with that pressure that you there was like you'd injured your arm there was a speculation about your role oh for that that particular thing well i thought my world cup was was done you know but i managed to find this sprint that they would have it's right to the last minute they were trying different splints on and stuff and in the end i had this one that was it was fairly useless but it meant i could play yeah um i mean i was in so much pain in 86 the whole just running just running the wind against my hand when i was running was absolutely agony let alone when falling over and stuff but i was so determined to play i mean it's the world cup you do everything but how did you block out the noise about like whether you were good enough to be there or the speculation around you again i have my self-doubts all the time you know i hear people say you know you i always knew i was going to i didn't i genuinely even in you know even after the world cup you know when i was 16 17 breaking through at leicester i used you know i remember first time i was in the reserve team i was thinking this will find me out and they're getting that then i got in the first team and i was sitting around all these my heroes and thinking what am I doing in here?

31:34And then, you know, I struggled for a bit because I was, as I said, small and, you know, and I didn't really break into it until I was 20, 21. Then I started scoring a lot of goals. And then I got an England call up. I was at home one Monday afternoon, just got home from training and the phone rang and my mum answered it. And she said, this is when the old days of a landline, remember them? So she answered it and she said, it's Gordon Milne, who was the then Leicester manager who was after Jotwell. So I went, what? I thought, oh God, what have I done? Because I'd never had a phone call ever from a manager.

32:11So I've gone to the phone, I've gone, boss. And he's gone, grab yourself a toothbrush, come to the ground, pick up your football boots, drive up to Wrexham. Bobby Robson's been on the phone, you're in the England squad. So that's what I did. I did exactly that. And I always remember driving up in there, so embarrassed. I just have this little sponsored car with my name all written over the side of it. I remember, so I drove up all the way to Wrexham because we were playing Wales. And I arrived there and I remember seeing like Tony Wolcott, Pete Shilton and all these, Terry Bush, all these players that I was like.

32:49Well, they would have been your heroes, right? Well, definitely. I mean, I was 24 by the time I got near to England, but I was still, as I said, I always think I was a little bit behind in terms of my maturity, probably because of the reasons I talked about before. But, you know, I just think, anyway, I didn't get on that game. But then I, you know, I think it was about a year later that I actually made my debut and scored my debut full start, I should say. I played 10 minutes at Hamden. And then I started scoring goals with England. It just didn't seem to make any difference which level that I'd still score.

33:26I enjoyed it. I just went out and just played and did my job. and I didn't get nerves. I don't get nerves. I don't know. I'd hear people talk about that feeling of nervous tension or butterflies and I don't know what that feels like. For anything? Never had it for anything? No, really? No. Then I went to the World Cup and I scored six goals and I won the golden boot. And then I went back and then suddenly I'm playing for Barcelona. And then in my first Clasico, which is January, I scored a hat-trick in it at home. We win 3-2. And then a month later, I scored four goals against Spain and Bernabeu.

34:03And I genuinely thought I was blagging it. And I remember running back to the halfway line, and Brian Robson's alongside me, and I went, Robbo. And he went, what? Why am I so lucky? And he went, I'll do fuck off. But you didn't feel that. But that was it. And then I started, and it was at that point that I started to realise, actually, no, I'm good at this. I am genuinely good at this. And what age were you then? That would be, I'd have been 26. So did you not have an ego? You didn't barrel around. I think we've all got an ego. But not. I wasn't, no, big time. No, no. I don't, I hope not. I mean, I was confident.

34:44You know, once I'd got to that stage, once I was at Barcelona and doing all these things, I think there was more confidence came into my game. But it's weird to try and explain to people because I don't think you can get to the very top of something by not really believing in yourself. And I did believe in myself, but I didn't see myself on the same level as the other great players in world football. But maybe that was actually a brilliant strength because it meant you were never comfortable. You were constantly challenging yourself. Constantly challenging yourself. Constantly pushing myself to do more.

35:19I was never satisfied with anything. In fact, it was always like, oh, you probably just got away with that. I don't know. It's weird and it's really difficult to explain and it's probably not the greatest advice. But that's how I was. And I've always been like that since. But then do you remember that game when there was a centenary match at Wembley and you were on that rest of the world team and you had people like Maradona. Yeah, Diego played, yeah. Like all the greats of the game. What were you thinking when you were in that dressing room? At that stage, had you accepted that you deserved to be there?

35:49That was around this period. It was the Football League centenary. and so it was the English league playing against the rest of the world. Yeah. So it was friendly but it was – and I was playing for the rest of the world because I was at Barcelona at the time and not part of the football league but believe you me by the way, I wasn't the only one that was in awe of Diego Maradona. When he walked in, everyone was like tongs were hanging out. I mean he had that much of a presence. He was that much better than everyone else and Pletton, he played in that game and there was like all sorts of great players.

36:26And he just walked in. He walked in and he was the only one that was paid to play in that game quite a lot. But did we care? No. And he came in and the first thing he did, he just sat there, he got changed to his shorts and then he just, you know, like you get a pair of socks and he just juggled it on his left foot for about two minutes, three minutes. Then he walked out and did this thing that kicked the ball up in the air. He was just on another level. And for me, what is unbelievable is that you can play at the highest level of sport like I've managed to do and like lots of those other players to do.

36:57But then there can be someone that is that much better than everyone else still. That kind of genius. It's like Messi in the last 15 years. He just does things that ordinary mortals can't do. Just can't. But that was magical. You know, that was magical. I'd see that. So when did you develop these superstitions that you have like... I had loads of those when I was young. Yeah. Do you know what I worked out though in the end? Oh. Yeah, being superstitious is unlucky. But were they coping strategies that you think maybe sort of... Not deliberately, but yes, I think they were. Yeah. I think they were.

37:36It's all about, because it's about confidence and calmness and being... Because my main worry before I played in the game, the only thing that I used to worry a little bit about That was how I would feel physically once the game started. Right. Because it's amazing how different. You can get out on the pitch and suddenly you feel, oh, everything's hard work, everything's aching. It's the same now when I go in the gym. I go in the gym three days a week, two of the days I feel great, and then one day I feel awful. And as I get older now, it's two days that I feel awful and one day that I feel great.

38:09But the important thing is that you're comfortable and confident yourself. So if I was on a bad run, I'd do like silly things. Like if I go more than say two, three games without a goal, I'd get air cut. Makes no sense. Except that it's amazing how many times it worked. And it probably kicks out the negative vibes that you've got in your head. So even though it's super easy, if I play a match, if I scored in the first half, I'd keep the same shirt on. If I didn't, I'd change the shirt at half time. There's all sorts of nonsense in there. But it's just, again, it's like something fresh. Just different thinking.

38:46At the time, I didn't think of it as that way, but the more I reflect on it now, because it's embarrassing, really, all these silly things that you do. You know, I'd drive a certain route if it was going well, and then I'd try somewhere else if it wasn't, and all these stupid things on the way to the game. Rio said, you know, the water bottles. He said you had to empty it on his head before he went out. I mean, it's all sorts of nonsense. But if it works. Yeah. But did you keep them right to the end of your career? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm ashamed to say. When your company's growing fast, order fulfillment can make or break success.

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41:45I'm so interested in this conversation about, you talk almost like it happened to you rather than you made this happen. Yeah, I think they're both true. You know, you've got to make it happen, but I'm also aware that I was given a talent. I got a talent, born with a talent that, you know, so you can't just go to someone, you know, some kid playing football who's not got that talent and you know say if you work hard enough you're going to go all the way to the top you know if you work hard enough you'll get to the best level that you can possibly get and that's i think that's as much as you can say to someone in that sense but i think there is an important conversation to have here that even with all that talent you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't talk to us about the hard work that had to go with it so did you make a conscious decision at one point to be the hardest worker in the room you mentioned i don't think i don't think i was the hardest worker in in the room um in terms of training and stuff like that i didn't really enjoy training and because i didn't think it ever was that helpful apart from i i didn't mind the working out you know the pre-season getting fit which was important but i used to get really kind of frustrated by how training used to be then i I know it's changed a lot now.

42:58You know, you play on bumpy pitches. And all I wanted to do was practice my craft, which was, you know, making runs, scoring goals, getting into dangerous areas. Whereas most of the training was five asides with little goals, and it used to bore me. It didn't stimulate me. And I used to think it was, it wasn't really, what was it giving us, especially strikers? You know, you finish it in a goal that's really small, and then you can't, you know, how does that help? So I never really loved training, but I used to think a lot about the game. And I think most of my training was off the training ground, off the pitch.

43:38And I loved working with Terry Venables. When we were in Barcelona, we used to go to lunch two or three times a week, which you'd never normally do with a coach, never. But probably because he was the English guy there and I was with Mark Hughes and we'd go for lunch to the beach club or sometimes and we'd just discuss football and movement. And he was the coach that was so different because I played for lots of really good coaches and there are loads around, but it was always, this is the way the team plays. There's a structure, there's a way, this is how you play within it. But with Terry, he'd come to me two or three times a week, so I've been thinking about this, you know, if the ball's there on the right-hand side and if you just check maybe to the left and then spin out to the right, do you think that would work?

44:21and sometimes they'd go, not really, Terry. But then, and then other sides, I'd say, maybe. And then we'd try it. And then every now and again, there'd be something, you'd go, I actually do that. And I loved that. For me, the work, which I didn't find it as work, was thinking about the game, thinking about how to get better. But for me, training was always a disappointment. You know, and I wanted to do shooting. And then on the days we'd do shooting, everybody did it. So you got like 20 players, knocking the ball to the coach, getting one back. You get a shot every 10 minutes. But it was only in the latter stages of my career where I was confident enough to go to a coach, which was Terry.

45:00Not when I was at Barcelona. Do you know in Barcelona, they only had one tiny pitch as a training ground? Right next to the stadium. The one at the stadium. Yeah. It's obviously magnificent now. But after that, when I went to Tottenham, I used to say to him, is it all right if I go on my own with a goalkeeper and a bag of balls and someone to knock the ball? And he was fine. he went yeah you do that and then I actually felt I was getting something out of it that's I want to practice what I do on the pitch I don't want to stand there and be part of a team working on team shape where you don't do anything for for an hour and a half and it just bored me I want to move the conversation on to something a bit different you've you've said that um you felt really blessed and you can't almost believe that this is the life that happened to you and if you don't want to discuss this and that's absolutely fine but there's probably the two moments that would not make you feel like you've been blessed is the two separations that you've had we have a lot of people that listen to this and talk to us about relationships in the workplace with partners with their children quite often would you mind sharing us in this wonderful life of abundance and being so blessed and achieving so much what those quite difficult personal journeys have taught you i don't see them as that i see them as two really really successful marriages.

46:15Right. I had 20 years with Michelle. As people do, we married young. After a long period of time, we just drifted slightly apart, made a decision to go on our own. I think that was a really good marriage. And my second marriage with Danielle, that was purely a thing about children and change. I mean, obviously there are ups and downs in all marriages anyway, and then breakups, you know, it's actually getting around to doing it. The difficulty is the actual procedure of the divorce thing in this country, which has been absurd. And I think it's going to be changed. Whereas somebody has to take the blame for a failed marriage, which was ludicrous.

46:52And I think that's an interesting way to look at those divorces though, because we speak sometimes about manifestation on this podcast, which basically means if you operate with a high energy, high positive energy, good things happen to you. And some people would have looked at those two and said, well, I was married for 20 years and it failed. What a shame. or I had a great relationship that was at the beginning and it didn't go anywhere. You choose to look at the positives and I wonder whether that's the reason why good things have happened to you throughout your life because this is the power of looking on the positive side.

47:26Well, I've always been a positive person and I'm sure it's probably helped me in many ways, no question about that. But that's how I genuinely feel. I'm friendly with both my ex-wives and you said if you could do it all again, yes. I wouldn't change a thing. I've got four wonderful boys with Michelle and a best mate with Danielle. Can you offer us some advice on how you maintain those friendships, even while the romantic element might fizzle away, that people listening to this, even if it's not about personal relationships, it might be about in the workplace. I can only go on my own experiences and that's, you know, and I'm, I'm someone who doesn't like confrontation for a start.

48:15So I'll do everything I can. It's in my nature to try and make everything okay. And that, that's important. I think the difficult thing in divorce is that what happens is you, if it's because someone else has been involved, then that, that, that becomes a difficult experience. I don't know what that's like. So from my experience, it was, it was more of, you know, just let's, okay, let's do it. And then the difficult bit is dealing with the media side of it, who is, it suddenly becomes this massively negative story. Right. When it doesn't necessarily need to be that. And the other difficult thing was, is, is when lawyers get involved.

48:52Because, and people who've been through this will know exactly what I'm talking about. You know, you can go perhaps with hoping to have a nice amicable split and then the divorce lawyers get in and the letters go out and then you start to think, oh, she doesn't like me. And basically they're just trying to make money for themselves. And with the first divorce, I learned a lot from that because I think we were exploited. And I think in my second divorce cost, I think, lawyer's fees was 500, 600 quid because we did it online. And you can do it because it's amicable. And that would be my best advice.

49:31Try and make your split as amicable as possible because it's so much better and it's so much less stressful. And that's important because dealing with stress is not fun for anyone. I love your positive outlook. I love that you look on the good side. So how does that sit in this modern world where every time someone puts up a tweet, overcomes the criticism? You know, people with 100 % of an opinion with only 10 % of the knowledge about either you or what you've said. And we've all been there where we put things up and we feel almost bullied into deleting them because it's just not worth the heat.

50:06What's your relationship like with this modern world? I don't get affected by it. I put my opinions up and saying, and if people disagree, disagree. If they get abusive, then I can't understand. How do you not get affected by it? Because so many people do. I don't really get affected because I don't read it. you know on twitter you get there's different columns there's the bit where you get people that I follow so you know and blue tick holders and then there's another column where people just reply I never look at the left hand column ever because why would you? but you obviously have done to make the decision not to well I've seen it but and what do you think that you do?

50:53and I think I mean I went you know What things do people have a go at me about? They'll talk about football and stuff, but really, everyone's got an opinion on football. Why would you ever get upset by somebody disagreeing with you on a football opinion? On things like refugees, for example, where I'm hugely supportive of humanitarian issues and I will continue to be so, I just can't really comprehend how you can not have a degree of empathy towards people having to flee their own country which is an unimaginable thing to have to do. I mean, you imagine if suddenly London was completely bombed like we're seeing in Ukraine now and we all had to go.

51:32I think you've got to think like that a little bit. So I've always been, you know, on that side of things. And anyone who wants to have a pop at me about that, I don't think they're worth the time of day. That's my personal opinion. So why would I let it affect me? Also, don't forget, growing up as a footballer, you get dogs abuse, you know, even from the crowd. you know you know you get you've got your name being sung by you know 10 ,000 fans when you're away from home singing Carolineica you're a wanker you're a wanker which I had numerous times but I always took that as a compliment because if the opposition fans are singing songs about you they must be worried about you so I think it's probably something that I've got used to over the years but I've always avoided really reading the negative stuff sometimes I put tweets out just to do something ridiculously sarcastic and then have a look to see if anyone actually believes i really thought that but again that's that's my mentality but it's like when i play football i don't want to see negativity and and people say well you know it's like now if you're on social media now as a footballer i mean you know it's a different thing but in a similar way when i played if i'd scored two goals or a hat-trick or something on on the saturday i'd buy every Sunday newspaper would you yeah and Monday newspaper if I hadn't scored never buy a newspaper so it's a similar thing it's obviously different because it's social media and it's all all encompassing but it's a similar similar mindset but how much is integrity important for you and the reason I ask that is that I remember like your last game in English football was at United yeah and you got a standing ovation didn't you at the end it was beautiful that's one of the reasons that I've always had a degree of affinity towards.

53:20Yeah, I remember being with my brothers and I think part of the reason, because I remember even at the time when you came off the field and we sort of reflected on why you got it. And I think it was because you'd acted throughout your career with integrity. And I think that was what people would recognise. I just think it's important. You know, I really do. Especially in modern times, you know, there's a lot of hate out there now. I mean, we've always been tribal creatures, but I think, you know, with social media and things, it's become more so. And why can't you have a different opinion to someone, whatever it is, even if it, you know, why does it have to be so divisive?

53:58And I think sometimes, you know, games are played with us in this country to make us more divisive. And I think that's really dangerous. And I think we're seeing it more and more. And I think that's a terrible shame. What do you mean by that? I mean by stoking the fire. Like take Brexit, for example, which I don't talk about anymore and I don't because it's, it's done and we're on, and we're on this course that I didn't agree with at the time. So, you know, we'll see where it leads us. But it was like, you're either a Brexit or a Remainer and then, or Ramona. Why? Two or three friends of mine are Remainers.

54:36Two or three friends of mine were Brexiteers, if you want to call those, use those words. Yeah. Do we not get on because of it? No, we're still best. It doesn't make any difference. just because you have slightly different beliefs about something. But I think there's this thing where you, whether it's through the newspapers, where they're constant front page, you know, having a go at the other side. And it's all become like really nasty. And I can't comprehend that. I just don't have that. It's just really weird. Life used to be about... You sit from right at the top of the government. 100%. Because they stand against things now.

55:09Life used to be, what do you stand for? Now it's all about what do you stand against? and we see it, you're totally right, from the very top of government, it's about what they disagree with rather than what they actually have their own policies. And what should we all be doing to live in a world with less anger and less polarisation and less disagreement? Could we all be doing a better job ourselves? Well, we could, but I mean, it's really, I mean, wouldn't it be lovely to find a way of actually doing that? Before we wrap this up, I do want to talk to you about moving into television and the importance of Des Lynham, who I know, as you know, is a hero of mine.

55:44And I want people to understand the importance of generosity of spirit in this world. What did he do for you when you first came into this industry? He did a hell of a lot. And obviously when I first came in, I sat next to him as a pundit for a couple of years while I did a bit of radio and tried to, I mean, as you well know, there are no kind of facilities to practice television, live television. If you're doing live television, you go straight into the deep end. And my deep end was the highlights of the 1996 Euros. And my second show was England-Scotland's highlights. And I think we had like eight, nine million people watching it or something stupid.

56:27So it was kind of in at the deep end. But Des was always, always really amazingly supportive. But at the same time, I would push Des and ask him loads of questions because I was with what I think is the doyen of sports presenters. And he was always incredibly helpful. And there were loads of things I noticed that he would do. I remember, I mean, I've said this before, but he used to look at the autocue and stuff and he'd say, I'm joining us this evening, blah, blah, blah, blah, and they were joining us. And I did this all season. And I think I remember it was once written on his screen and saying, and joining me this evening, I heard him say to the autocue, Can you take me off and just put us, please?

57:11So I said to him, I've noticed that, but you always say us. And I said, why do you do that? And he said, well, you've got to remember this show is not me. It's about everybody involved, everybody that's watching at home. It's a thing that we do all together. And ever since, I've never said joining me. I may have done it if it was a mistake. But, you know, joining, just, and there were lots of little things. And he used to say, you know, he said so many presenters, he said so many, he said they're all terribly good, they're very good. He said, but they don't take chances. They don't try and have a bit of fun with something.

57:47You know, don't take it too serious. Try and think of a fun closing line. He said sometimes it will be rubbish. Sometimes, he said, but people will notice and it'll be more impactful. And they were things that I took on board and I've used right throughout my television career. and I've, you know, I've tried and be funny and most of the time it's not. We delivered it in a better way than John Wallace. But it doesn't matter if you've got, you know, if you've got 3 million, 4 million, whatever is normally watch matches of the day. If just a small percentage of those people laugh at one of your stupid jokes, then you've perhaps made someone smile.

58:24And that's important. Really nice. Before we finish, we have our quick fire questions. What would you say, Gary, are your three non-negotiable behaviours that you and the people around you need to buy into? I think kindness. I think that's really, really important. Self-awareness, I think it's very important, which gives you an understanding of, I think, of caring for people as well, which is, I think, an important thing. And a third one, I think the third one is have some fun. Have fun with life. We only get one go. if you could go back to it one moment in time what would it be and why that's a good question 1990 world cup semi-final probably not the penalty shootout but probably chris waddle's shot when he goes across the goal hits the inside of the post see now i know which way it will come out so i would have moved myself a couple of yards to the side and knocked it in and win 1-2-1 and that's the only football match in my whole career where I look back and think, if only.

59:34I know there's the Brazil penalty thing, but that's just a personal goal. But being that close to a World Cup final, to lose on a penalty shootout or to be a whisker of the wrong side of the post when it hit Chris Waddle's ball came back out. And I honestly believe we'd have won the final. Obviously, I don't know that, but they weren't the same Argentinian side that we'd played four years previously. and that would have meant we were 90 minutes away from football immortality and that's the only thing and Bobby Robson was exactly the same I had the conversation with him it was the only thing that he ever used to think not every day I don't think about it all the time honest but every now and again you just think if only what would you say is your highest performance moment and what is the time where you feel you really let yourself down highest performance moment I think it has to be the winning the golden boot but probably the hat-trick against Poland because it changed my life.

1:00:30It changed my life. It put me right at the top. Before that, I think I'd gone five or six games without a goal with England. I expected to be dropped for that game because we'd had bad results in the first two and we needed to win the game and I hadn't scored even though I'd gone close. I thought Bobby would leave me out, but he didn't. He left Mark Haley out for the first time ever. I think England played two small strikers and Beardsley played just off me and it worked. And I scored three goals in the first half and then I got two in the next game and then one against Argentina. I've got the goal in the Argentinian game that no one remembers.

1:01:07And then I'm sat with a golden boot and life was different. Then I was off to Barcelona and everything was different in my life. So it has to be that. And the time where you feel you most let yourself down? On the football pitch, probably that moment with my dad when he dragged me off the pitch. but realistically in a football sense probably that silly penalty against Brazil in a way it was only friendly but I was just being trying to be clever so she thought I'll do it in style with a little penenka and that came came off wrong and then a non-football sense non-football I'm trying to think a non-football I've done things I wish I hadn't really got involved with the Brexit thing to be honest I don't mind not the sense of putting out that I was going to vote for Remain because I don't mind putting out what I do.

1:01:58But the thing afterwards and then getting a bit carried away with the fact that we lost. And I think if I had my time again, I wouldn't have bothered with that. What's been the biggest sacrifice you've made in your pursuit of high performance? Or would you do it again? I think all the sacrifices I've made, I don't think they're that great. Maybe you feel too blessed to see them. That's what I mean. What a life I've had. Training hard, you know, or thinking about the game all the time or going to TV and media. I mean, I feel I've had such an incredibly fortunate life and such a lovely balance to my life that I don't consider anything that I've done as a sacrifice.

1:02:38Brilliant. And the final question, and this is kind of your last message to the people that have sat and listened to this conversation, which I've really loved, by the way. How would you describe your one golden rule to living a high-performance life? Yeah. give yourself the best chance to succeed work as hard as you possibly can do everything that you possibly can and just aim high and then you'll reach you'll reach that level that that then you'll be satisfied with yourself and that's the most important thing if you know you've done as well as you possibly can then I think you can be satisfied

1:03:19Damien, Jake I really want people to listen to that conversation with Gary and realize that sometimes there isn't loads and loads of thought that goes into someone's high performance life. And actually, when you are a high performer, the reality is that sometimes it does feel like you're on someone else's roller coaster ride and you're being carried along and taken along with it. But I think the key thing with Gary is that he has such a positive outlook on life. And we've had these conversations so many times on high performance. if you have a positive outlook, if you see the good in every situation, if you believe that great things are going to happen, more often than not, they do.

1:03:57Yeah, definitely. I think the big thing that I took away from what Gary was talking about in his career was just sometimes just put one foot in front of another. Don't get blinded by thinking I need to get to a certain level. You know, he said that he was 24 when he eventually made his England debut, which was relatively late for it. but he wasn't missing any of the steps of the process out. He was following the process of going from being an apprentice to a young professional to establishing himself at Leicester. And it's almost that willingness to wait and to be patient in your pursuit of high performance and trying to rush it and get there too soon.

1:04:36And even though he likes to look at the positives, let's talk about the fact that he was embarrassed by his down on a football field at a young age. He was a late developer, which also embarrassed him in front of his peers. He had a really challenging manager, Jock Wallace, at Leicester. He had really low, low points on a football field. You know, he's been central to a game of football, which has taken this country so close to a World Cup that they didn't win. He's then had times where he's been pilloried on social media and kind of been forced to delete things that he's tweeted, for example.

1:05:12All of those things have happened to him, but he still chooses to see his life as blessed and positive and wonderful. And I think there's a real value in realizing that those moments that are hard are not necessarily negative moments in our lives. They're all part of the story. And you can, in almost every situation, you can find the positive at the end of it. Yeah. And if there's a message that people listening to this could take away, it's about that very word gratitude. It's about practicing gratitude, which is what we're hearing Gary talk about. He's not just grateful when things go well, he's grateful for when they don't go well.

1:05:48He still practices that gratitude, which then gives you that spirit of abundance, that gives you the capacity to be kind, which attracts people that have a similar mindset into your world. But if you want a starting point, it's about having that attitude of gratitude. Love that. Prioritize empathy over opinion. How many times have we said that on this podcast? We hear it so often that it's not by chance. It's the ability to step into somebody else's world, see it from their perspective, and just suspend your own ego. It's such an important characteristic. Loved it. Thanks, mate. Thank you, mate.

1:06:26Gary Lineker. You know what struck me most? That this was a bloke who won the World Cup Golden Boot. He played for Barcelona. He played with Diego Maradona. He presented Match of the Day for 30 years. and it was the fact that he spent most of it thinking he was the luckiest person in the room. That humility isn't false modesty. I think it's a thing that kept him hungry. He was never comfortable, never satisfied and always pushing to do a little bit more. And off the pitch, two marriages, which he calls successful, four sons, which he's proud of and a set of values that are centred around kindness and empathy that he's refused to compromise even when the pressure to do so must have been enormous for him.

1:07:08his golden rule give yourself the best chance to succeed work as hard as you can and aim high what's not to love about that if you've enjoyed this one please consider sharing it there may be somebody in your life who needs to hear it well until next time thanks for joining us here in the high performance community

1:07:38Thank you.