George Russell: How One Bold Step Launched His Career in F1

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance App. to deal with. Those failures are the times where you really question yourself, your processes. I don't want to experience that ever again. That is the voice of Mercedes Formula One driver George Russell and this is High Performance, the show that turns the lived experiences of the planet's highest performers into your life lessons. Now imagine this, it's 2014. A 16-year-old George Russell, fresh from a championship winning season in Formula 4, sits at his computer and he faces a crossroads. The dream of Formula 1 so vivid, so close, suddenly feels out of reach.

1:07Because despite the trophies, the sacrifices and the relentless pursuit of perfection, the call from a Formula 1 team that George might have been expecting just hasn't come. Other drivers are getting the opportunities ahead of him. So in that moment, George does something that will change his life, although he probably didn't know it at the time, he decided to send an email. And he sent the email to Toto Wolff, the man at the helm of Mercedes Formula One, asking for just a chance, just a shot, just an opportunity. And that's exactly where we start this conversation, one that is loaded for you with lessons on how you have to make hard choices in life and you have to create your own opportunities.

1:48And there's so much to learn from George's attitude, which you can take into all areas of your life. If you haven't yet hit subscribe, please do to keep up to date with the latest episodes. Next week, an exclusive episode with Crystal Palace manager, Oliver Glasner and Hollywood star, Jeremy Renner. So let's get to it. This is the story of George Russell and an email that changed everything.

2:16I then raced my first year in single seaters in in Formula 4. So, you know, that's a small Formula 1 car, effectively bottom of the range when you're 16 to 18 years old. And I won that championship, but I hadn't been picked up from a Formula 1 team. And I was sort of thinking to myself, you know, what do I need to do to get an opportunity with an F1 team? I've won this championship, I've won races. I didn't dominate the championship but I won the championship and I wasn't getting that break as such and it was towards the end tail end of that year I thought this might not work and that's when at the end of that season I got Toto's email and emailed him did you that's interesting there's two questions here I'm interested in is one how did you process what might have felt to me if I'm imagining being in your position, a sense of mild panic at this stage that you've gone all in on getting picked up and you're not getting picked up.

3:19So how did you handle that? And this email that you sent, I'm fascinated to know, what did you say? I thought at the age of 16, the world would come to me. And as I said, it was only during that year that I realized they're not looking for me. You've got to go and look for them. You've got to knock on their door. You know, Toto's not going to look up. British Formula 4 and say, you know, there's a kid, George Russell here, who's won the championship by a couple of points. We need to sign him. But if I put myself in front of him and talk to him and show him what I'm made of, maybe there's an opportunity.

3:54So I remember I was in Abu Dhabi at the time doing a test in Formula 3. I managed to get hold of his email. I thought, I've got nothing to lose. You know, worst case, he doesn't reply. In which case, I've lost nothing. Best case, he replies and I literally just sent him an email I didn't want to go in too hard I just said you know I'm George Russell I race this be great to meet you and and talk about the future potentially and um I think it was a good time to do it as well I think time is key Ved just won the championship he was standing himself on the podium after the was that luck on your part or was that a bit of foresight that was luck but now I look back and I realize you know these small things make a difference you know you you need somebody on the receiving end to be in the right state of mind if he's having a bad day or he's busy and he sees this if I sent that email one week earlier which is for Tuesday before Abu Dhabi Grand Prix last race of the season he probably would have seen it and disregarded it but it was the Tuesday after Abu Dhabi Grand Prix season's over he's relaxed won the championship you know here's an opportunity oh you know this kid's just emailed me and I sent his email I think it was about 9pm and he replied within 15 minutes with his PAs copied in saying hi George nice to hear from you and it'll be great to meet you in January and four weeks later I sat in his office.

5:15And what was said that day? To be honest not a lot was said that day. I told him about my career he asked a lot of questions he was obviously very very nice and gave me a lot of time and I think something I've realised about Toso since day one he gives everybody a huge amount of time but it wasn't as simple as all right we're going to sign you today and that's that we left that conversation saying right i'm now going to race in formula 3 this is where you're taking the next step you know we'll keep an eye on you and we'll stay in touch and we'll go from there and it was only at the end of 2015 where we picked up the conversation again and that's when i signed for for mercedes and what did you do in that intervening period because i I think this is, again, valuable for people who are never going to race in motorsport, but have got an ambition and they know where they want to go.

6:01What did you do to stay on his radar? Like to kind of almost let him feel that he was part of your career even before you were signed. Do you know what I mean? Rather than just disappearing for a year and reappearing, which I think some people would do. Yeah, so he actually gave me some advice to join a certain team in Formula 3. So this was a German team who raced with a Mercedes engine, Mercedes-Benz. and I think it'd be a great place for you. So I appreciate your opinion and I went and did a test with them and I ended up joining a British team called Carlin with a Volkswagen engine. So as soon as I signed with Carlin, I sent Toto an email just saying, I really thanked your advice, did the test with the German team, but I felt like joining the British team with the VW engine would be better for my future progress.

6:50And I feel like I'd learn more with the British team than with the German team. And he replied again straight away saying, you know, sort of jokingly, I think you're making a wrong decision, but best of luck, let's stay in touch and let's see how he gets on. So I think having that follow-up email where it wasn't so formal in a way, it was a bit more informal and I'd almost gone against what he had advised. He probably saw that it's quite intriguing. You know, there's this 17-year-old kid now, 16-year-old kid who has almost gone in the opposite direction to what he advised. And that was it until, I think, until December when there was an award ceremony and Toto was there.

7:28And I thought, this is my opportunity to go and speak with him again. And that's where it started.

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9:17so it sounds to me like you've started to pull on a golden thread almost where it gives you a line of sight of i know where i want to get to now and it gives you a sense of direction how frequently when you made a decision whether it's the team that you're joining formula three or like a particular decision about a race and how you're going to respond were you thinking about about what you were going to say to total or what mercedes would perceive going into that season i I just thought it's all results-based. I've almost done the groundwork now of putting those foundations with Mercedes, with Toto.

9:52I just need to go out there and perform. Even though there wasn't a contract on the table, straight away I felt like I had a good relationship with him. And having performed, it gives you a lot of ammunition to argue your case. So I think you've got to go out there, make your point, then almost leave it and then do the talking on the track or whatever industry it is you're in but also a real belief in the decisions you're making like are you doing all this at this point or is your dad going George send this email to Toto or your mum while she's you know chatting to you at the dinner table she's going have you messaged that guy from Mercedes again or is or are you kind of again as we've spoken about a couple of times already in a kind of in your own world controlling your your own destiny yeah to be honest most of this came from my own thoughts really but I'm sure it's from the way I've been brought up from from my parents and I guess they always taught me you got to go out there and make it happen for yourself so even though it wasn't my father saying you know send this email to Toto I was sort of on my own accord going out there and trying to create these these opportunities and as I said it was only when I was 16 I recognized if I want to achieve my dream and it wasn't just my dream it was also my family's dream there's been so much sacrifice for my father for my mother you know my father used to work every day you know half seven till half seven never saw him through the week on a Friday night we're jumping the camper van driving up and down the UK and as a child you don't really comprehend what's going on here you know why is dad not home for dinner tonight and tomorrow night and the day after he's there working his socks off to you know put food on the table make a living to be able to afford to go go-kart racing it's not straightforward and as I said I by that age of 16 I'd won again in Formula 4 but didn't really have the money to go and race in Formula 3 if I didn't have sponsorship that could have been the end of a journey so it's sort of now and in my court thinking I've got to go and do something because clearly winning isn't just enough and what did that do in terms of your perception of pressure so as you say like you almost were naive to not appreciate never seeing your dad and it's just the way things are and then you say that realization dawns off shit he's been working hard to give me these opportunities yeah i don't really know how that played on me in terms of that additional pressure i think for sure my father was very hard on me during my whole racing career well what do you mean by that and we're just in go-karting you've got my my father was my mechanic throughout my go-kart career my mum used to write down all of the data on her little notepad all the setups all the lap times everything logged in this one pound fifty notepad from wh smith or whatever and it was so passionate for all of us and you know they're standing on the sidelines they're seeing me racing see me succeed but equally if I'm ever making a mistake.

12:59Because I think he was going through a lot of pressure. You know, work was not straightforward for him. All of that time and sacrifice he was making, if ever he saw his son going out there and not putting in the effort during the race weekend or, you know, I'm more interested playing football with my mates in between the sessions or messing around, I guess that would probably wind him up quite a lot. And he would let me know about it because, you know, he's putting all this effort in for a reason. I need to go out there and show that it's worth it. And I can't be there dicking around, just having a good time when kind of we're here to win.

13:36But then does that affect the father-son dynamic? Is it more than coach, athlete? Yeah, I think so. I probably didn't have the greatest relationship with my father through those karting days because we were like a race team. It was almost like we weren't there to have a good time. We were kind of there to win. And if we won, we had a good time, of course. And we'd always, remember, we'd always stop off at KFC on the way home if ever we won a race. And as a kid, you know, I really enjoyed that. So that was kind of my reward at the end of the weekend if you did a good job. And obviously those moments are so special, but equally on the flip side, if it doesn't go to plan, you know, I felt it, but then I would see it affecting my father.

14:20And, you know, my mother maybe less so, but it added an element of pressure. And that's probably why when I got to a mature age, you know, 16 and realizing, right, my father has been through not just 10 years of this with me, it's 10 years prior with my brother as well. And it's a 20 years worth of passion and hard work. I need to almost put my finger out now and almost not let them down. And that's probably why even today when you don't have a great race weekend, you don't go out and have some food with people. you kind of do, I guess, what you learned really in that period in your life, which was, you know, to try and process that.

14:58So it's been so interesting to hear that, you know, people think stuff comes for free. If you've got talent, you get into Formula One, right? That's clearly not the case here. You know, you've had to make these sacrifices, have various little moments along the way where you've had to make the right decision and you do, and you end up in Formula One. And I'm there watching from afar, because this was interesting for me, because obviously I was doing bits and pieces with Formula One as you were starting out on your journey and then I watched you come through and you know you were the most successful young British driver for a period when there was some great British drivers Alex Auerbond was you know based in the UK racing under a Thai flag and Landon Norris obviously at the same time so I then remember watching your first season at Williams but those guys are in a Red Bull and a McLaren and are picking up points picking up podiums and you're not I'd love to know how that felt and how you processed that from being as you described as a young guy like you just won everything that's what you did and suddenly you weren't yeah that was a really unique season for me my first year in formula one joining williams and a team that was on the brink of bankruptcy and it was a team of every single race weekend it was racing to survive it wasn't racing to perform the team was racing to survive in the 800 people's jobs at stake and there was no doubt you know when I got to the first race in Australia I'm here in Formula One you know almost one dream accomplished and go out on track and we're four seconds off the pace the car's falling apart and we're being lapped two or three times kind of thinking to yourself you know is this the dream but I think I've always had quite a rational view to things.

16:43And while seeing Alex in Red Bull scoring podiums and, you know, being the man to a degree and Lando equally always in the points. And that was sort of difficult to digest because I'd just come from Formula Two where I, I beat them. And now, you know, I've almost just been put. How did you digest it? I thought that even though they're finishing the points and they're scoring podiums. I'm not here to score points or podiums. I'm here to win and I want to win. And even though they were finishing ahead of me, we're all going through this journey together, learning. I was part of Mercedes and I felt like my time will come.

17:25So I think every time from a difficult situation, you've got to try and look at the positives from it. I was driving at the back of a grid, kind of under the radar. I was making a few mistakes that season, but not many people noticed because people weren't the spotlight wasn't on me the spotlight was on the guys at the front equally the spotlight was on Lando and Alex and if ever they made a mistake the whole world knew about it so I saw this as an opportunity that I'm in Formula 1, going to 21 different countries, 21 different races, different circuits this is my opportunity to learn and perhaps try things that for example Alex and Lando didn't have the opportunity to because the spotlight was on every single weekend Also, you couldn't have done these things either because you in previous seasons were racing for titles and championships every year.

18:13So you had no exploration behind the wheel, did you? No, absolutely. I think, and that was a real mentality change for me. I had a teammate in Robert Kubica who had a horrific accident in 2011, I think it was. And he'd been out of an F1 car for a long, long time and he had a very difficult season. So I was almost racing in no man's land. but there was this one race in Monaco I was driving around I was ahead of Robert by quite a margin I was behind the next gaggle of cars and I kind of thought to myself I'm just going to bring the car home because what's the point in risking it you know I've kind of achieved all I can in this race I can't beat the car's head I've already beaten the car behind and there was a moment in that race that I thought this will teach me nothing if I just drive around for the next hour and a half just bringing the car home.

19:06This isn't going to help me in one year time, two years time, three years time. If ever I'm racing for a Mercedes, if ever I'm racing for a race win or world championships. So I just sort of turned up and just went absolutely flat out every single lap around Monaco, kind of risking everything for 19th position on the grid because I felt like that's what I needed to do if I wanted to learn and progress. And it's from that moment on for the rest of the season that sort of every single race, every single qualifying every single session was this opportunity for me to build a you know greater toolbox of experience for me to to tap into whenever i needed it in the future that's something that as i'm listening to it is the first time you're almost driving without pressure because there's no expectation on yours has previously come and then you find pressure within you put yourself under some kind of pressure yeah it was i was racing against myself You know, I stopped thinking about my teammate and I stopped thinking about everyone else because we were so far behind, we couldn't compete with anybody else.

20:08So I was purely competing with myself and I'd have races or sessions where I finished 19th. I was ahead of my teammate, behind everyone else. I was really disappointed with my performance because I knew I could have done better. And for some of my team at the time was a little bit difficult to understand. And, you know, on paper, I'd finished in the same place as I finished last race. All of those boxes were ticked, but I knew I could have done better. And I think that's really helped me to develop from this difficult situation. I could have done that whole season, just tootled around, and I'd have got to the following year.

20:45Then I'm slightly more in the game. I've just wasted a whole season. So I think every single opportunity you've got, you've got to make the most of it. So tell us then, what did you learn about yourself in this season of discovery and exploring your own limits? What's the biggest lesson that came out from that? I think the biggest lesson was probably success is all relative. You know, when I grew up as a young go-kart driver and going through the ranks of F4 to F2, success was being on pole position and winning. and when I got to Formula One that just was not achievable in the Williams in that season so I couldn't come away from every single weekend being disappointed with myself because I've not been on pole and I've not won the race you have to readjust your expectations and you have to find your own successes you know I would celebrate when I was only half a second away from 18th from the grid rather than being a second away because that was relative success.

21:52And for me, that was kind of like a pole position. And if I didn't celebrate those moments, that 21 race season would have felt incredibly long. And that helped me to sort of get through that season and to progress as a driver. Are you glad that you had it? I think so. I never want to look back and say things should have been different. I think every single opportunity, every single year, whether it's a good year or bad year, adds to your sort of development. and it made me who I am. If I was in a Mercedes fighting for victories, I wouldn't have had those experiences. And I've probably been through in that regard, maybe more than what Alex or Lando has.

22:33Lando's been at McLaren now for five years. He's been fighting for the odd podium or pole position for five years now. Whereas I've been on sort of every end of the spectrum. And you've got to see that as an advantage. I think what you're describing there is fascinating. There's research on this that your brain releases the chemicals to celebrate whatever your expectations are. So if you expect to get half a second quicker and you do it, your brain releases the same chemical because you've hit your target. So if your target was to win the world title, you'd get the same chemical release as where Jules was finishing at that point.

23:12So how do you deal with setting micro targets now? I never like to look too far ahead. I like to take every single day as it comes. And I believe that if I perform to my very best today, if I perform to my very best tomorrow, whether that's in the gym, whether that's talking with you guys, whether that's talking to my engineers, whether that's in the simulator, whether that's a Friday practice session. if I do the best job possible that I can do every single day I'll achieve that overall goal so it's obvious I want to be a world champion that it's too obvious to even set that as as a goal because it's that's what we're all here to do you know my goal was I'd wake up today and make sure that I do everything right and go to bed thinking I couldn't have done more than I've And if I achieve that every single day, that goal of world champion will come.

24:06So we had a really interesting conversation with Johnny Wilkinson. What year were you born? 98. So do you remember England winning the Rugby World Cup? You were five years old. You were young. I don't remember it, but I've watched it. Yeah, I know the moment. How long do you reckon he said the thrill lasted? I think I listened to his podcast. So it's 30 seconds, right? Yeah. And what was really interesting with that conversation was that was the moment where he realized that life isn't about having that moment where the light shines and you're the world champion and then suddenly you're happy that's delaying happiness till you get to that moment and I think what you're talking about here is you've realized as he has but he only realized it after setting that huge goal achieving it and realizing it wasn't actually going to give him a thrill or any length of fulfillment it's about being totally in the moment all the time so you know when we're having this conversation you can give it 50 but it won't fulfill us it won't fulfill you it won't fulfill anyone and then you go on to the next thing and if you give that kind of 50 because all you're thinking about is winning the world title your whole life will be missed opportunities flat experiences absolutely dull moments and then guess what if you don't win the world title what a waste it's been changing everything for that moment does that make sense yeah definitely i'll always remember i got obviously such an opportunity when um i jumped in for for Lewis in 2020.

25:24Obviously, he came down with COVID and jumped in last minute into the Mercedes. They'd already won the world championship. That was probably their most dominant race car they ever produced. And I'm coming from a Williams that I was finishing 19th. Every single race weekend, didn't score any points. Thrown into that car and I qualified second, 20 milliseconds behind my teammate and I was disappointed. And that was just such a learning for me thinking, you know, this is my best qualifier. I've never qualified inside the top 10. I've just missed out on pole position by 20 milliseconds and I'm disappointed with that.

26:03Because for me, I felt like I could have done better. The expectation had changed. And even though that was by far better than anything I'd achieved previously, it wasn't all that. When did you realize that? Is this a long period after? Or is that at the time you thought, why am I feeling like this? Well, straight away, I was disappointed with second. And it was probably that evening I realized that winning probably isn't everything in terms of fulfilling that happiness. I want to win more than anything. But if you're going out there to achieve happiness, winning will give that to you for a short period of time.

26:45but that's you win once you want to win two times you win two times you want to win three times you it's never ending and I think that's what I've I've learned on this this journey and why maybe those three years at Williams for me I dealt with quite well because as I said I wanted to be a world champion and seeing sort of my rivals in Alex and Lando having relatively a bit more success in the interim, they weren't winning either. And they'd already been content with their points finishes. They'd finish in the points almost every single race. They were disappointed with not getting podiums. Then Alex scored a few podiums.

27:23He's then disappointed that he's not winning. And I think it's never going to stop. I'm yet to win a race. I'm working my ass off to try and win a race. When I win one race, I'm not going to say that's my life fulfilled. world it's you know i want to win another race and another race and then it's i want to win a championship when you're in one championship you want to win another championship so you need to find that way of balancing professional life and trying to get that success but also trying to find your happiness yeah potentially somewhere somewhere else as well because it's um probably if you're looking for that in your profession and just from pure success i don't think you're going to achieve it.

28:04I think that's a fascinating insight to reach because especially I'm thinking of you've left school at 14 there may be lessons that you learn by doing exams or going through a process like that or less bruising experiences like your first girlfriend or like falling out with a group of friends at school and yet you're having to learn this in the bright lights of formula one. Yeah I think leaving school at 14 had its pros and cons. I obviously, as I said, leaving that social life and people of the same age as me and friends was obviously difficult. But then I was always surrounded by people who were in their mid to late 20s.

28:46You know, when I was racing professionally go-karting, my go-kart mechanics when I was in Formula 4, my race engineer who was 50 years old, dealing with people at such a young age who have experienced so much in life, experienced so much within that sport. And you didn't necessarily have the bad influence around to mess about. I was terrible at school. I used to always sit at the back and mess around with my friends. Whereas if I was in that classroom on my own directly with a teacher, I wouldn't have been doing that. And I'd have been so focused in educating myself and trying to be a better person.

29:24And that was kind of going from one extreme to a kid who's now working hard with his 50-year-old engineer to try and be a better racing driver and go in for dinner with him and the mechanics who are in their 30s or late 20s. So you've had qualifying in the Mercedes, you've finished second. Thankfully, you've processed the fact that's not a failure. And you can be happy at all times, regardless of what's happening. But then comes race day. And that amazing start you had where you sent it down the inside of Valtteri and took the lead in that race. could you talk us through the process you went through that evening after you'd processed qualifying how conscious was the decision that that's how you were going to start the race you know you were going to kind of almost like lay a marker down in that moment against the guy who let's be clear you wanted his seat right and this was the first chance in your whole career to be judged against him yeah i think that whole weekend i went in with the mentality that i've got nothing to lose you know he's the driver who's been in that car for four years now then the whole season in that race car this is 17th race of the season I think it was I'm coming in got called up on a Wednesday afternoon if I finish behind him I'm expecting to finish behind him because of the circumstances but if I beat him that's huge and that I think fueled my motivation of thinking wow what an opportunity I've got nothing to lose and I can just go for it and I think waking up on Sunday morning I'm just thinking it's just it's just another race even though this was the biggest race of my career at that point it was just another race and I think that's something I've tried to take forward is every race you can't build it up into something that's more than what it is.

31:10You do these practice days, you do your training sessions, you go through that process. And if you're going to qualify and all hyped up, this is qualifying, I need to go out there. This is the biggest qualifying of my career. I feel a bit anxious and a bit tight and a bit stressed in that scenario. Whereas I treat it like a practice session. Every training session I do, every practice session I do, I'm trying to be the best I can. I'm trying to drive as fast as I can. So when I get to qualifying now, I'm just going to do the same as what I did in training. When I get to the race now, I'm going to do the same as what I did in training because I train to do the very best possible.

31:47So as soon as the helmet was on and you're on that starting grid, there was no one in front of me other than obviously my teammate in Valtteri, but there was no cars directly ahead. It just felt like another race. And it was incredible how that mentality was, you know, you're just looking at those start lights. I've got to make a good start and I've got to try and overtake it turn one. And that's the exact same mentality as I had from starting second there on pole position at one of the races this year or when I was starting last with Williams. I think there's something about intentionality here though as well because I'm reminded as you're describing that, that experience you said when you were 14 and you went, I'm going to beat that guy on that bend in the last lap where you're going in and imposing yourself on a situation.

32:33So although you calm because it's just another race, there's something about imposing yourself and imposing your will on a situation. How conscious was that, that you're now in a place where you can go in and impose yourself on that race? I think you recognize certain circumstances are obviously bigger than others and you want to try and do big things. So I knew I've got half an opportunity. I'm absolutely going to go for it because that is the moment where the spotlight truly is on. Even though you'd go in with the same mentality when the spotlight wasn't, that you realize, you know, you've got to go for that opportunity as such.

33:13And yeah, as I said, as soon as you launch off the line and you see half an opportunity, this is the guy who I'm battling for that race seat. I can't leave anything off the table. and I don't want to come away with any regrets. It was a very unique circumstance to be in, and especially, as I said, battling directly with the guy you're trying to take his seat from. Well, it felt like a fairy tale. I remember at the time thinking, this guy's been supported by Mercedes, he's done the hard yards, he's been in the Williams. This strange opportunity has come about because of a global pandemic that struck down one of the drivers.

33:52Now he's in the lead. This was always meant to be. but that's not the way it didn't quite pan out that way I got a puncture in that race effectively lost the victory through a puncture but by having that puncture in the race it also gave me an opportunity to carve my way back through the field and overtake Valtteri again which in a way was almost a bigger statement than what it would have been had I just won the race and cleared off into the distance And I obviously finished that race incredibly disappointed and upset that I wasn't standing on the top step of that podium. But probably within 24 hours, I thought perhaps this is a blessing in disguise.

34:38You know, I had such an opportunity to show what I was capable of. I think if I just went out there and won that race, probably the respect wouldn't have been there because it almost would have been too easy. whereas people saw me fight for every single opportunity they saw me fight at the start they saw me fight back through the field they saw that passion of when I got the punch and it felt like the people watching was on that journey with me if I won that right race I'd have been a one-time Formula One winner it would not have changed anything for me and even though it would have meant the world at the time I'm here to try and be a Formula One world champion and I would be no happier or sadder today had I won that race.

35:23So it was quite an intriguing thought. You might not want to answer this with total honesty, but I'd love it if you did. Did you think that the performance you put in that day meant at the end of the season you'd be in that Mercedes? I always believed I'd be in the Mercedes and Toto made it very clear, just go out, perform and leave the rest to me. And that wasn't that weekend, that was throughout my whole career. when I was racing in Formula 3 he said go and win I'll sort the rest I won he sorted the rest I raced F2 go and win and you'll be in F1 next year I won and I was in F1 and he had the same mentality he knew I wanted to be in a Mercedes Mercedes was the seat that every single F1 driver wanted to be in and he made it clear go and perform and you'll be in the car but you did perform and you didn't well I had a three year contract with Rick Williams that was probably the the biggest difficulty is when we signed for Williams, they were a team who were fighting for podiums, fighting for pole positions.

36:25They had one bad year in 2018, but we thought that was, you know, a one-off and they'd be back to not winning ways, but, you know, fighting in that mid-pack. And Claire Williams, who ran the team at the time, she kind of had us by the balls, let's say. And, you know, that was the only opportunity to get into Formula One. that was the last remaining seat. She basically said it's three years or nothing. So you obviously went for it. And we thought at the time, three years with Williams, it's not going to be a bad place because they've been fighting for podiums for the previous four years. They had a bad year in 2018, but it's a new season.

37:04They could be back to some good ways. And then we soon learned that it was a difficult situation for the team and they had difficulty with sponsorship. They had a sponsor pullout. the pandemic came and as i said it was a battle of survival for them but it would have been hard i imagine correct me if i'm wrong to to get that your first ever taste of a competitive formula one car and then go back not just for a few more races but an entire season like hungry man like yeah wanting that back yeah absolutely once you've got that opportunity it motivates you to to fight even harder to make sure you're there always.

37:45And I remember the first time I ever drove a Formula One car was when I was 17 years old. That speed and thrill I got from experiencing that Formula One car. I always wanted to be a Formula One driver, but I had added motivation and fire within my stomach to achieve that because that was just such an awesome experience. And the same with almost been on pole. That was such an experience and what I'd almost dreamt of my whole life I wanted that every single weekend so you know I went out the following year and 2021 was probably my most competitive year in Formula One. Obviously that was the year when you had that coming together with Valtteri right?

38:22What happened when you stood in for Lewis was kind of out of your control and was great for you yeah and I think the general perception was at that moment wasn't great for you how was it from your perspective that that moment against Valtteri and I'm interested also in how Mercedes and Toto dealt with that because that was almost the first time that maybe there was a difficult when we came together and obviously crashing into the driver whose seat you're trying to take and the team who have supported you your whole career that wasn't on the plan it wasn't it definitely wasn't on the plan but i think it's where those sort of killer instincts come in because i was a williams driver the thing with with williams is i'd been there for two years we'd scored zero points the teams who finish eighth ninth tenth in the championship, they often don't score more than 10 points in a whole season.

39:11So if you ever get that one opportunity to score one or two points, that is huge for the team. And also financially, if you could finish ninth or eighth in the constructors championship, you're talking tens of millions of dollars in prize money extra you were given. So this is a team that's struggling to survive on the brink of bankruptcy. I'm in a race, I'm in 11th position. And when you're in a car like that you've got to put it all on the line you're not going to score points if you're conservative and play Mr. Consistent it didn't even really cross my mind that it was Valtteri and a Mercedes that was an opening to score points for myself for my team and I had to go for it but it was probably that moment I was spinning sideways through the grass at 200 miles an hour what did you think when you realized who it was that you'd had to come in together with It was quite a scary moment because I'd never crashed at that speed before.

40:09Doing 330 kilometers an hour, DRS open, got on a wet patch, the car just spun. I'm going sideways down the track, carbon fiber flying everywhere. I can't see to my right because you're kind of locked in the cockpit. I don't know what I'm going to hit and I'm sort of bracing for impact. Fortunately enough, the overall impact wasn't too bad and we sort of slowed down into the gravel and hit the barrier slightly. Your initial reaction, you got so much adrenaline. As I said, you're crashing at 200 miles an hour. Firstly, I was furious with Valtteri, which was probably not the right thing to do because that was an opportunity that I saw that has now just disappeared.

40:51You know, it wasn't that I've just crashed into Valtteri or Mercedes. It's that is points we've lost. And I thought that he'd lost for us. and that was probably also a lesson for me that you need to look at the overall picture from other people's view before taking a snap judgment and i was you know very hot-headed and went over and he was also hot-headed you know middle fingers were flying and the f and the c words were being thrown around and it was all a bit of a not a very pleasant situation and that was also a really good learning for me you need to take a moment to think about it before snap judgments but when it comes to mercedes i didn't really know what to think i was flying home with toto that evening it was always the case so you know the one flight that i take with him a year it was that that one he was very upset with the situation and pretty pretty angry also because that was the very first year of this new financial cost cap that had been implemented and the damage that occurred in that incident for Mercedes was, I think,$1.5 million.

42:03So that's$1.5 million taken away from the sort of overall budget. So he was obviously very upset and frustrated about that. It was all just a messy, not a good situation. We left it for the following day, and then I went around his house for lunch on Saturday, and everything was no problem at all and we moved on from it. So I feel like situations like that, you almost grow together. It sort of pulls you closer and I actually, as it happened, built a probably closer relationship with Valtteri's group of engineers and team because I knew them already, but they all knew that there was a potential that I'd be replacing him.

42:46And I went over, I called them all and said, look, I'm really sorry for what happened on Sunday. You know, there's a lot of work just for them. You got them to get that? No, it was only sort of the chief mechanic and chief engineer for him. So I spoke to them both, just really sorry for how that panned out. And they said, look, don't worry about it. Was that suggested by Toto? No, it was, to be honest, I'm not too sure where it came from. I knew all of these guys anyway, because I was a junior driver for Mercedes. So, you know, I'd often flown with the Mercedes team, a good relationship with everyone.

43:22So it wasn't a sort of difficult thing to come by. But obviously a strange dynamic. I'm a Williams driver crashing into a Mercedes driver. And then I'm sort of on the phone to the Mercedes team saying, look, I'm sorry for how that panned out. But, you know, I feel I'm almost glad for that crash because I feel better for it. You know, I feel a more rounded person. and I see things maybe slightly differently. And these moments in life, I guess, mature you. There's no perfect moments and you need mistakes to grow. Was there ever a fear from you that it would cost you to drive? No, to be honest, because my argument was, you know, I was in a position that was better than where the Williams should be and he was in a position worse than where the Mercedes should be at the time.

44:10so I kind of naively and selfishly used that incident as almost an argument for me which... Well, a chance to remind them that their current driver was further back than he should have been. Yeah, yeah, so you can look at it from so many different angles and whether the crash was my fault whether it was, it wasn't his fault but it was, there was an opportunity there it was a very audacious overtake attempt and Toto actually said, you know, a couple of days later He admired the fact that when I was sort of spinning out, I was still flat out on the throttle, going sideways through the grass towards the wall at 200 miles an hour.

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47:04I'm intrigued by that journey back with Toto the night after that crash and I'm hearing parallels of the journey back with your dad and your mum in the car after those weekends when you're not getting KFC yeah and that leads me to want to explore that relationship and the parallels between your dad and Toto. I've seen some videos of Toto with his son go-karting recently and there probably are some parallels there between my father and Toto as a father to his son. Like what? I think you live this with your son in that journey. So if they're not succeeding, you're also not succeeding. and that was the case when I was sort of driving if I didn't win a race that was obviously a failure for me and I felt that but my father felt that but I think then when you've got that added personal investment you know at the time for my father it was the financial side you know it was whether I've had a crash and damaged the cart or just not won the race you almost feel like what was all that work what i spent you know god knows how much for nothing for toto during the race weekend it's obviously he's you know he part owns the team but also he's there to win and that's that incident was going to compromise the team slightly for for the season so he felt that frustration as well and almost disappointment so we almost both felt the failures as such but for different reasons.

48:45So in a way, when I came back from the car truck with my father and I hadn't won, I was upset, but he was sort of very upset. It was kind of similar with Toto and I. I was obviously upset the fact that I'd lost points for Williams. He was very upset that I'd had the crash, probably how I conducted myself, but more so the fact that Valtteri didn't score points and it's damaged the cars and the team's going to have to work a lot harder and it's going to potentially compromise their season slightly. So yeah, there's definitely some parallels, no doubt. Because when we interviewed just Capito, he spoke to us about his dad was similar, as in he'd funded him when he was coming through the ranks.

49:22And he described how his dad wouldn't speak to him for a week if he lost. And he now has this mantra that second place is nowhere, that you either win or you're nothing. And he described how that was actually a real source of strength to him through his career. do you think that gave you strength or do you think you could have benefited from say having a like your dad or Toto actually put an arm around your shoulder and comfort you and help you process that loss at the time I definitely didn't think it was I didn't think it was beneficial but now I look back and I I really do I definitely would not have changed one single way how my father raised me and took care of me during my carting career and even on those times where you know there were tears you know for sure as a young kid and you feel like you've let your your dad down but that definitely made me stronger and you always want that love and affection of course but what was I chasing in my life was I chasing love and affection or was I chasing trying to be a Formula One or champion well I'm intrigued as how it affects your wider relationships now like like with a partner and they're upset like we often learn from our parents or the example around us yeah do you have the capacity to be able to comfort people when they're struggling or do or is it more that same mindset i've just get on with it i mean toto said to me after that crash you know i am hardest on the ones i care about most and yeah that sort of resonated with me a little bit and whether you know my girlfriend or my family or whatever if they're going through a tough time whether it's work or personal whatever I think you need to strike that right balance you know my my girlfriend is works in finance it's definitely not an easy industry to work in a lot of long hours and you know after a tough day of course you want to to give love and affection and put your arm around them but equally I want to see her succeed and I know what she's capable of and sometimes you do need someone to look at things from a different perspective and you know my father he with his mentality he's been hard on me because he only wants the best for me and I totally agree and believe in that and it might be something in the time you don't recognize but I guess you may be thankful for later down the line.

51:56we often have a phrase because this is a very common conversation with people who've reached your level in life that just because something is hard for you doesn't mean it's bad for you no absolutely and i think we've gone through many moments that have been hard but not bad i have learned the most in my life from my failures and my most difficult moments i feel like success and victory is such an easy thing to deal with no one needs to know how to celebrate a success if you achieve something you're related you're so happy let's go and celebrate let's have a glass of champagne or whatever but often you don't sort of take away any learnings from that and in the moment it feels so great and you feel like you've accomplished so much but perhaps it's not going to add much benefit later down the line maybe it will and you'll continue on that path and and great if you do but those failures are the times where you really question yourself your processes am i doing this right could i be doing this better i don't want to experience that ever again i get more motivation from failing to never feel that again than when i do from succeeding so what's more effective for you play it like racing to win or racing not to lose it's definitely all about racing to win but i think in terms of your progress you need to lose to be able to win and i think you need to put it all on the line sometimes to get it right but equally when you get it wrong that's where you progress the most in my opinion when i was working in formula one jensen button was you know winning world titles and he had a very tight group of mates that went absolutely everywhere with him and they were like his safety net and I know that you work with your sister she's been part of your kind of backroom setup and you don't make a big deal of it you know we don't see her on the telly or anything but I wonder whether that is a kind of a constant grounding for you at a race weekend that that person that was there right back in the karting days is still there for you it's yeah as you say I work with my sister and she's always there for me 24 7 even though you know most of the time when we talk it's professional we're not talking as a brother and sister having her there is something who I've someone who I've had for 24 years of my life and also my manager Harry Harry was my manager from when I left go-karting in 2013 he was there from from day one when I signed for Mercedes they took over everything so Harry and I sort of passed away for a couple of years and two years ago I said to the team at Mercedes I'd really like to bring Harry back into sort of my group of people around because he's somebody who I trust so much and who I think would be really beneficial for me trying to sort of grow on my journey so you know having my sister having Harry having my family these people have always been there from day one and you you know what they're about.

54:53Do you have any agreement in place when you're getting a little bit carried away you're you're going too far down the rabbit hole of this fantasy world that you live in do they have anything in place to be able to pull you back out i don't think so i think i've never fortunately found myself in that position and um you know i try and speak with my family as as much as possible and i think that helps to stay grounded before we do our quick fire questions i just want to know whether you're remembering to really enjoy it as well i remember you know it was lander wasn't it a while ago, he was tongue-in-cheek.

55:26He said, you're not fun anymore when you got into Formula 9. It's so serious. The stakes are so high. We've had a conversation about a crash that cost the team that you wanted to drive for a million and a half dollars. Is there still space for enjoyment and for fun or is it all too high a level for that? No, of course there's time for fun, but it's all got to be in the right moments. Right, quick fire questions.

55:52What are the three non-negotiables? that you and the people around you have to buy into to be part of your world? I think you need to accept that I'm going to be incredibly dedicated to what I do. Can't be a dick. Got to be a nice, nice person. And definitely got to be humble and not get carried away with what we're doing. What's your biggest weakness and what's your greatest strength? I'd say my biggest weakness is probably, in the heat of the moment, blaming others before looking at myself. I think it's very easy to have tunnel vision, and especially in the heat of battle. And if something goes wrong, goes against you, I think it's quite easy to jump onto that other person.

56:44biggest strength I think probably being dynamic to a situation our life is constantly changing whether it's travel plans whether it's racing on track one day it's dry one day it's wet climates are changing conditions are changing time zones are changing you can't have a strict routine in the sport that we do and you've got to you've got to be dynamic you've got to accept that things will change what's the hidden cost of the life that you live there's a lot of sacrifice on not only you but probably the people around you the emotions you go through once again it's not just you it's everyone is on this journey with you probably the biggest hidden cost is is that emotion you I see the effect it has on the people I'm closest to when I succeed.

57:45And that's such a great sort of elation and feeling to see that you've had this positive impact on the people you love the most. But when something goes against you, or you have a bad weekend or you fail, I see this on the people around me as well. So you're probably carrying that weight. And just to take on from that, the conversation about mental health is an important one for men to have. How much does what you do challenge your mental health? It absolutely challenges your mental health so much. And you've got to be so resilient to the negativity in this world, whether it's the public perception, whether it's social media, whether it's the pressures of the team or even the pressures of yourself.

58:36but I think the biggest one probably for me is that public perception, social media side, which is a tough one. And I think that's also relatable to people who aren't in the spotlight because social media is a pretty ruthless platform. And what have you learned to deal with it? Just don't read comments. That's a pretty straightforward, simple one. But talking to a professional, I think, I have a psychologist who I talk to it's not routinely but I always pick up the phone whenever I feel like I need it and I always leave that conversation feeling better about myself there's sort of a weight lifted off my shoulders and I think a number of people have said this before it's the same way as if you want to get fitter you go to the gym and you speak to a personal trainer if there's anything weighing on your mind you need to talk to a professional about it and seek that help.

59:33But also, you know, you go to the gym when your body's not broken. Yeah. And I think people will often only go and seek professional help when the mind is broken. I think there's a power there that you don't go and see someone when you're at your lowest ebb. Absolutely. They're there all the time for you if you need it. Yeah, absolutely. And I think I've been very lucky to have the right people around me to almost push me to do this. You know, even though you are, I'm in a good place right now, let's just keep it going. Let's keep the conversations ongoing. and often I've been in a good place, but as soon as that conversation starts, you know, it sort of all flows out.

1:00:06So yeah, I think that's a really good analogy. If you don't mind us being intrusive and you don't have to answer this, what would you say has been the biggest lesson you've learned from those conversations with the psychologist? The conversation with the psychologist, it's, for me, it's difficult to put into words because they are truly experts within their field. And I always, you know, come away from, from conversation with with my psychologist and whether I talked my girlfriend or my family and they just how was that I try and explain some of the things that we spoke about and the piece of advice that he gave me but I actually struggle to say it but it's because that's what they're so good at and I said I can't I literally say I can't really describe what it was that he said or how he said it but I feel better for it and I would really recommend anybody who's got the opportunity to talk to a professional.

1:00:58Even if you've never done it before, just go out there and just give it a try and see what you think. And I think you'd be really surprised at what you can take from it. Brilliant. The power of talking, which is what we've done for the last little while. And a really fascinating conversation where we haven't really spoken that much about the mechanics of Formula One. But it's been great just hearing that people from the outside see a very linear journey from go-karting to Formula One driving. And the fact that it isn't that, which you've explained so well, but you've explained the lessons you've taken from all of those difficult moments, which has you where you are.

1:01:31Thank you very much. Thanks, mate.

1:01:37Damien, check. I worked for a long time in Formula One. That is the best understanding that I've ever heard a driver offer into the journey that is involved in getting to Formula One and the importance of having those bad times, having those tough times. I remember watching that crash with Valtteri and for him to then sit here and talk about it in a way where he was almost a positive, he learned from it that is such a powerful place to get your mind to I think Yeah, I think there was something really inherently powerful about the messages he was talking about pretty much every situation is a learning experience if you're open to that, if you're willing to as you said, step back from the emotion of it review it in a really detached, calm, rational way and take the lessons from it, we can all learn from pretty much every experience then.

1:02:29And in an interesting way, he's learned how to learn, if that makes sense. So, you know, I loved it when he talked about in the early days, it was all about victory, all about success. And then you have to realise that actually, when you qualify second on the grid for the first time in a Mercedes and you're disappointed, something's not right. And most drivers would go, well, that's the sport, that's the way it is, that's elite. He doesn't accept that. like he's clearly constantly exploring why he feels the way he feels and whether it's healthy for him and I love the fact he learned that coming second on the grid in his first ever race for Mercedes when he stood in for Lewis should have been a good moment and it was a bad one so he's corrected that and do you remember he said right at the beginning he said I had a bad weekend laid in my room and got no sleep maybe I'd have been better to go out with my mates so it shows that even now he's picking up on things even three or four days ago in the most recent race that actually the way he dealt with it wasn't right and he's continuing to explore.

1:03:25Yeah, I think there's something really powerful here of getting off what's known as the hedonic treadmill. The idea of we're constantly going from, we're looking for the next thing and the next thing because we never get off it then. Like he said, if you win one race, you want to win two, you want to win two, you want to win five, then you want to win a championship. And it's always like you'll never get off that treadmill if that's what you're chasing after happiness. Whereas going for those smaller moments, like the delay discounting of having your own expectations of coming half a second it's a victory for you rather than thinking that if I don't win the championship I can't be happy and we talk often about you know people that delay their happiness they'll be happy when they achieve something well this guy's fighting for a Formula One world title in his career and he's learned that he needs to be happy on the journey not when he reaches that destination because who knows he may never reach it and if if someone where the stakes are so high it's like this is, you know, global fame and millions of pounds worth of riches if you become a Formula One world champion.

1:04:23Well, if he's learned that that's not the everything, I think we can all learn in our own much more humble lives that it's about the daily stuff. It's not about the big moment. Yeah, I think when people often hear, say, football coaches or racing drivers like George say, you know, stick to the process, sometimes it's almost got to the place of a cliche where you go, well, what does that mean? He's just explained it to you there. The process is the small steps that eventually add up to the performance targets that then achieve your outcome. But you focus on the small steps to feel that constant sense of motivation, engagement and happiness on the journey.

1:05:01Fascinating. And look, we didn't have time to get into it remarkably after talking for that long. But, you know, when you talk to the team, he gets out there before other people. He acclimatizes. His meticulous planning for a race weekend leaves no stone unturned. And I think that if that's how you approach life, then if it doesn't go to plan, you've allowed yourself the opportunity to actually explore it and find out what's gone on and not be too hard on yourself because you've done everything. And we're not saying like, don't bother and be happy. We're saying give it everything and be happy if it doesn't go to plan.

1:05:30Yeah. And there was something about that first season when he drove for Williams where he said, you know, in that race in Monaco where he could have cruised round and come in at 19th and been happy. and then he said, actually, what am I going to learn from this? I think there's so many things that if we have that mindset of curiosity, there's always something to teach us. I was reminded of a story, I think it was Gary Player, the golfer, said that when he wanted to teach himself patience, when he was driving to a golf course, he'd drive behind an articulated lorry in the slow lane. So he would deliberately force him to slow his breathing down, to just be patient and focus on the process rather than just getting there as quick as possible.

1:06:08and I think what George has just described of that learning is there in every opportunity if you have that curiosity and you're willing to explore. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for being part of this high performance journey. You know what, I would love you to just get in touch. I would love you to let me know what you thought of this conversation with George and I'd love you to do one other thing. Let me just be totally frank here, okay? We are doing our best to change people's mindsets, change their perception of the world, change their outlook, change their understanding of others by having these conversations on high performance.

1:06:43But you know, we're not on a terrestrial TV channel. We don't spend millions of pounds on advertising. Not everyone knows about this podcast. So if you could do me one thing or one thing only, it's just to share this podcast on your WhatsApp, on your Instagram, on your Facebook, with your mates, just call someone and say, listen, there's a cool podcast you should listen to. I can't tell you the difference it makes for us. the more we can grow this channel, the more incredible names we can attract. And once we get those names, we bring you conversations that will be a game changer for you. So please share this podcast.

1:07:16Thanks to the whole team for their hard work on this episode. But for you at home listening to this, remember there is no secret. It's all there for you. So be like George, man. Believe in big things and we'll see you soon.

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