Has the Social Media Ban Come Too Late for Our Kids?

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1:55Johann Hari: Hi there, welcome along to another episode of High Performance. And this is one of the Wednesday episodes where myself and Damien look back on some of the guests who've joined us over the past few years. We delve deep into a specific topic and today's specific topic is the use of smartphones. So if you've got a teenager in your life, if you've got a younger person in your life, if you yourself are struggling with your phone use or your use of social media, if you feel that it's stealing life from you, then you need to listen to this episode. because we are going to be talking the truth about social media, the truth about being online too much, the harm that it causes.

2:30We're going to be hearing from high-profile people. We're going to be hearing from experts.

2:34Johann Hari: And we're going to be giving our instant reaction to the ban that's been announced that comes into place in December 2027. Your initial reaction to Sir Keir Starmer's announcement, Damien?

2:44Jake Humphrey: Absolutely right. I think you can't have been in the seats that we've been lucky enough to be in over the last six years, opposite some of the finest minds on the planet that have explored the impact of social media, especially on young people, have not come away with a sense of alarm about what it's doing and what we're sort of allowing to happen on check. So to see somebody draw a line and to not take away social media, but to give back the life, the opportunities, the fun that we grew up experiencing, that to me just leaves me delighted. And it's exactly the point that Sir Keir Stammer made when he announced this.

3:22He said, it's not about us taking something away. It's about us giving you something back. And actually what he's giving people back is the single most important thing that we can give them, which is life, which is exploration, which is human connection. We're going to hear from a number of guests. And actually it's alarming for me how often we sit and have a conversation on high performance and we speak to high achieving people who aren't very happy. And actually when you think about it, so often it's linked to the fact that they have social media in their lives. So a long time ago, we spoke to Eddie Hearn, the boxing promoter,

3:52Johann Hari: who told us he doesn't really feel much joy anymore after one of his big boxing events because he goes straight onto social media and everyone tells him that his boxing event was shit. We actually have a podcast episode coming out this coming Monday with Liam Lawson. And we asked him, didn't we? We said, what's the one thing that you've had to sacrifice or give up to pursue being a Formula 1 driver? And his answer was happiness. And Liam is one of the drivers that I think gets the most criticism in Formula 1. And I don't think it's a coincidence that he feels he's given up happiness at the same time that he is sucking up so much online abuse.

4:26And I know that we're talking here about high-profile people, but the evidence is clear that it's not just about social media criticism or abuse. It's just being online. And I think one of the most startling bits of data was from Meta's own research, right? Because I think the argument here is devastating, right? Social media companies didn't just accidentally harm childhoods, in my opinion. They design products specifically to capture young people's attention, right? And the evidence of anxiety, of depression, of addiction, of the loss of sleep, I think is absolutely devastating. And Metazone data, one in three teen girls said Instagram made their body image issues worse.

5:09Now, we both have girls. You have a 10-year-old, I have a 13-year-old. and I guess really we've been asked a really simple question if something knowingly harms millions of children why have we been treating it like harmless entertainment for so long

5:25Jake Humphrey: well we're going to go back and listen in later on in this episode to the interview that we did with Alex Greenwood one of the inspirational England lionesses and we're going to hear how at 15 years of age she was being subjected to comments about her body shape and size and the impact that that had on her. Now, some of those examples you just offered there, Jay, whether it's Liam Lawson, whether it's Eddie Hearn, we're talking about adults here. And yet what we know is your brain doesn't reach full maturity until you get to about 25 years of age. So these are people that are still at full maturity and they're still talking about the damage, the hurt, and the isolation that follows from it.

6:05Jake Humphrey: You amplify that to a kid that's 15 that's receiving that kind of abuse in their own community. I don't think it's even about abuse.

6:14Johann Hari: I think, you know, let's not get too hung up on the abuse thing. I don't think social media abuse is the problem. Social media is the problem. Addiction to being online is the problem. YouTube is a problem. Snapchat is a problem. For me in my life, my daughter's not allowed anything. She only has WhatsApp. Even WhatsApp's a problem. How often do you have a conversation with one of your kids and they're picking up a phone and you go, get off the phone, and they go, I'm just looking at YouTube. I'm just messaging a friend. I'm just checking teams which by the way is a bit of mine that has school use teams to communicate with kids like let's please stop that immediately I know the social media abuse thing is painful for a lot of people but I would say the majority of people don't that's not the issue is it I think you're right

6:54Jake Humphrey: but again don't even think about it with your kids how many times do you meet another parent and I'll have you a bet that within an hour of a conversation definitely within the first hour you talk about how are you managing the phone use for your kids? For me, it's a huge percentage. What do you reckon for you? I think it's massive, but I actually think it's, for me, it's not just a conversation about whether my kids can handle social media. I actually think that we're, I think one of the main reasons we're banning social media is not because children can't handle it. It's because we've got to a point where we've admitted that even as adults, we can't handle it.

7:33And I think we know it's damaging us. And that is the truth, right? I know my life's being stolen by the use of my phone. Yeah. So much.

7:41Johann Hari: Not just sitting on the sofa scrolling, but also going somewhere and needing to take a freaking photo and video of everything. Like, why do I need to do that? Like, how many, have you got your phone there? No, no. How many photos do you reckon I've got on my phone?

7:56Jake Humphrey: About 500. No, mate, are you mad? Go on. 27 ,000. 27 ,000 photos yeah

8:07Johann Hari: I bet you 26 ,500 is just nonsense I've just taken a photo of a meal or a video out of a train window or an amazing like yes I'll tell you a good example there was a rainbow over our house right last week a double rainbow nice right yeah I looked out the window Florence, Seb and Harriet were all taking photos on phones and I went out and took a photo on my phone what the fuck like what is this about so let's get into hearing from one of our guests then because i think this is a really important um first clip to start with jonathan height who wrote an amazing book called the anxious generation he joined us on high performance and this is what he told us about the use of smartphones and childhood take everything important out of childhood and replace it with millions and millions of 15 second tiktok videos and instagram posts That's what we've done.

9:00So we can't expect our kids to grow up to be confident, creative, good performers if we don't give them a childhood that nature evolved for us in order to bring humans from childhood to adulthood. We have overprotected our children in the real world and we've underprotected them online. I think Jonathan Haidt is the perfect person to begin this episode with. and this idea that we've taken real life and replaced it with quick 15-second TikTok videos really sums up the life that we're living and that young people are living at the moment. And I guess we all need an understanding of how we've ended up in this position, don't we?

9:43Jake Humphrey: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I love Jonathan Haidt. His book, The Happiness Hypothesis, is one to me like a seminal text that I often go back to. but in his more recent research, he talks about how it's almost like we're running this giant global social experiment without actually recognising what we're doing. So he gives you the idea that we're wrapping children up in bubble wrap in the physical world and then we just leave them isolated and alone in the digital world. So we've stopped them climbing trees or walking to school on their own or taking those small risks that kids need to build resilience and at the same time, we've given them a device that gives them access to the very best and equally the very worst of humanity 24 hours a day.

10:27Jake Humphrey: So I get fed up, you know, and people talk about snowflakes and they go, kids aren't different, kids haven't changed. The question is whether it's our understanding of risk that's kept change with the world that we've sent our kids into. So we think that the real world is riskier than it is. Yeah. And we think the online world is safer than it is. So our kids are no longer climbing trees in case they fall. but they are absolutely spending time on social media and if they fall then the consequences are devastating. And if you're listening to this conversation and you still don't think that what we're saying is real, Johan Hari, another guest who joined us, told this brilliant story.

11:04He was at a Silicon Valley conference and he watched a designer of smartphone apps ask the room, would any of you in here like to live in the world that we're creating? How many hands went up? Not one. Not one hand was lifted in the end. These are the people that have created the world in which we're living. Let's hear Johan Hari actually explain what's really happening here. You can try having self-control, but every time you do, there are 10 ,000 engineers on the other side of the screen trying to undermine your self-control.

11:43Johann Hari: I mean, the way that he says that, 10 ,000 engineers on the other side of the screen trying to undermine your self-control. and I think this is where we actually have to also be kind to parents and kind to young people and kind to ourselves because companies are spending billions of pounds to addict us to tech. How can you and I, with all the love in the world that we have for our children, possibly compete with the data, the knowledge, the influence, the expertise and the spend of these big digital companies? We literally can't compete. Therefore, we were always going to end up in this position.

12:16Johann Hari: therefore it's totally the right thing to add some sort of control is it not 100 percent like

12:22Jake Humphrey: there's a great parallel when we sat down with chris van tuliken and he was talking about uh ultra processed foods and he gave that great example about food in mexico that up until the i think it was the 1980s there was like um some kind up until 1980s there was some kind of like trade embargo that uh food primarily from america wasn't allowed into mexico and then there was a very clearly before and after state when the embargo was lifted then lots of ultra processed foods could find their way in and you can see the impact on um heart diseases diabetes and all those other kind of uh diseases associated with unhealthy foods on the population of the country so what mexico did as chris explained to us is they now put like large black warning labels on the front of food that is considered as dangerous it might be high in sugar or salt or calories.

13:15Jake Humphrey: So the Mexican government understood that asking people to rely on willpower alone wasn't going to be enough when billions were being invested in making products more unhealthy, but ultimately being irresistible. And I think smartphones and social media raises a similar question. If we acknowledge that kids need protection from products that have been designed to steal their attention, to steal their focus, to steal their sense of connection, why would we treat digital products any differently from the food products that Chris explained.

13:46Johann Hari: You know, my frustration in terms of the reaction to the news from the government, right, is everyone going, oh, there's workarounds. Oh, it hasn't worked in Australia. Oh, I know a 12-year-old in Australia that's still on social media. Like, there's workarounds for everything. There's a workaround if your kid at 12 wants to go and buy cigarettes. There's workarounds if your 16-year-old wants to buy alcohol and go to a party and get drunk. Like, we all know there are workarounds. I actually think that what the government are really doing here is they're putting a warning out to all parents and people in a position of responsibility to no longer stand by and watch and i think any parent that goes there'll be a work around you are being a useless parent it's your job to stop the work around so harry and i had a conversation yesterday so florence isn't allowed social media but sometimes she goes on our phones and looks at instagram like that now stops and actually it's really easy to stop it because it's like, well, it's illegal, Florence.

14:39Johann Hari: It's like, you're literally not allowed to look at Instagram. Seb loves YouTube. And he was talking to me last night. He was saying, but what about all those videos I love on YouTube? And I'm like, what about all the people that used to love smoking cigarettes? You know, like, there's a moment where we have to say, you might love it, but it doesn't mean that it's good for you. And if people are listening to this, can I just share a few stats, a bit of data? You were going to say something. You go first, and then I'll...

15:03Jake Humphrey: Well, I was going to say, the idea of workarounds, I heard the same sort of debate about, it's not worked in Australia. Well, we're judging it on about six months' worth of data at the moment versus what John Hite said, we're 15 years into this social media experiment. But when you go back in our history where we've asked people to change behaviours, like in 1983 where it became outlawed that you couldn't get in a car and drive without putting a seatbelt on, what we saw in the first 12 months of that was that people wearing a seatbelt went from 40 % to 90 % in a year because it became legal. It became mandatory.

15:39Jake Humphrey: So you had to think about it in that regard. But I think there's something more significant about what the Australians have done and what hopefully we'll do here in the UK. What about the generation of kids that are never going to be exposed to social media before 16? So we're talking about our children that have been exposed to it. So they're feeling that sense of loss at the moment. What about the next generation below them? that are never going to experience that. That's who this law is intended to help as well. And in some ways I feel kind of devastated that our generation of children are the only ones that are having life stolen from them.

16:18Because the previous generation didn't. We didn't. I remember getting my first phone at 19 or 20. But that was just a phone. I remember using Twitter for the first time in 2009. I was a 30-year-old guy, right? and it's caused me enough stress in the years since, and I'm an adult. The next generation, you're right, are not going to have the same questions, not going to have the same problems. I feel devastated that it's our generation that have had this and have been exposed to this.

16:42Jake Humphrey: But I love that quote, you know, and you've used it a few times when we've chatted, Jake, about the sign of a civilised society is people planting seeds for trees under whose shadow they'll never sit. Yeah. So I'd encourage anybody that's sort of listening to this debate and thinking, yeah, but I'm focusing on the loss of what I can't give my kids to. to think about what we're setting up for generations to come in this country that hopefully lead to happier, healthier and more productive lives for them. And if you're still wondering whether it really should happen, have a listen to this. I mean, UK children are already phone first, right?

17:19Off comes 2026 report says 78 % of 8 to 17 year olds have their own mobile phone. Childhood free time has been colonised by screens. among 8 to 17 year olds the top favourite free time activities for young people is gaming watching TV or watching films only 27 % of young people say hanging out with their friends is what they want to do in their free time mate this is devastating 8 % of UK children aged 8 to 17 say spending time outdoors is what they want to do with their free time

17:55Jake Humphrey: 8 %? yeah mate it gets worse Ofcom found 65 % of parents of children aged 6 months to 2 years say their children are online and 85 % of parents of 6 months to 2 year olds say their child in your eyes looking at a screen Ofcom says 37 % of 8 to 17 year olds in the UK think they spend too much time on screens Among children with a mental health condition that rises to them believing 56 % of them believe they spend too much time on screens 55 % of parents of 8 to 17 year olds think their child's screen time is too high and over 30 % of parents say they find it too hard to control but the social pressure number is the most brutal one I think 33 % of 8 to 17 year olds who use social media or messaging apps feel pressure to be popular all or most of the time and 70 % of young people feel the pressure at least sometimes and finally online harm is not theoretical among these 8 to 17 year olds Ofcom asked whether they'd seen nasty or hurtful behaviour in the past over 20 % said it happened to them personally 47 % of young people that had been exposed to nasty or hurtful behaviour said it happened through social media Blimey That reminds me, there's a great phrase from a couple of psychologists called David Pizarro and Paul Bloom who've been exploring this as well and they talk about shitty flow you know like so many of our guests we talk about being in that state of flow the six cent mihali idea that everything is effortless and it's easy and that's where you're at your best pizarro and bloom call shitty flow that state that feels like flow because you're absolutely absorbed in a moment but and you lose track of time and you become immersed in an activity but when you come out of it you feel depleted rather than fulfilled and what they're basically describing is doom scrolling all the impacts that you've just described there shitty flow of being exposed to these messages or the algorithm serving up things that make you feel inadequate or the distract you leave us walking away from it feeling lesser than before we went into it it's always like the opposite of what we know six cent mihali's idea of flow is which is being at your very best this is being at your worst so um we asked people online

20:15Johann Hari: to tell us what they thought about this band using high performance accounts um and we had a lot of people saying, such as this, William House says, as someone from Australia, it stops nothing, kids just lie. Terrible policy, says Sam does what? Impossible to police or govern. It's not impossible to police or govern. Is it impossible to police or govern whether your kids drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes or take drugs or are racist or abusive or beat people up or carry knives? It's not, you know, none of us would say it was impossible to police that. We've allowed ourselves to think we have no control because we as adults have no control.

20:56Johann Hari: Therefore we can't possibly control our kids. I heard people yesterday on the radio actually saying oh this is going to be really painful and difficult for young people. Big fucking whoop. Let it be hard for your kids. Let it be hard for us adults. This should be challenging. Of course it's going to be difficult. Of course there are people that are going to avoid the ban. Of course there are people that are going to sidestep it. Of course there are going to be parents that don't give a shit. That's just the truth. But schools have to stop using online platforms to teach our children. They have to stop using Teams to communicate with our kids.

21:26Johann Hari: We as parents have to stop saying that we're not in control of this anymore. We as parents have to stop modelling one behaviour while preaching another. So if your kids walk in the bedroom first thing in the morning and you and your partner are on your phones looking at your phones and you say good morning, like, what message is that sending?

21:44Jake Humphrey: Yeah, where the value is.

21:45Johann Hari: Have you seen that brilliant social media video? It's a girl in her bedroom and her mum comes up and tells her off. And this girl goes, I can't wait till I'm an adult and I can do what I want. And then she slams the door. And then the next shot is five or six different shots. And it says, doing what I want. And it's two adults sitting on a sofa staring at a phone. An adult on a park bench staring at a phone. An adult at the beach staring at a phone. An adult on the tube staring at a phone. Four mates out for dinner staring at a phone. I can't wait till I'm an adult and I can do what I want. not even we are able to control our need to pick up a phone.

22:21Johann Hari: Yeah. Not even we. My pickups are like 300 a day. 300 times a day I feel the need to pick up my phone. You're much better than me. You mentioned Alex Greenwood. Should we hear from her?

22:30Jake Humphrey: Yeah, this was a really powerful moment in the interview where it sort of stopped me in my tracks, took my breath away, partly because my daughter had come along with me to the record that day. So she looks up to Alex and to hear her describe the impact of what social media did to her as a young, successful athlete is worth us all reflecting on. Here she is, one of the great lionesses of English football, Alex Greenwood. I was obsessed with wanting to achieve what I set out to achieve and also as well I think it probably at like 14, 15 when you become a woman your body starts to change slightly and at that point you're seeing pictures of yourself and you're like, is that how I want to look?

23:18Sort of body conscious about certain things and then that falls into eating habits and it becomes like a slippery slope to be honest and you have to grab it quick enough before it gets out of hand and I see it a lot. I see it a lot with females because I'm around them a lot with body image and comments that people say about you're on social media or have a perception of the way you are, how you look and you don't have a choice of a picture that's posted on social media and some people choose to read, some people don't and I think I've probably gone off on a really rabbit hole of what you asked me, but I think it comes back to the hard work probably crossed the line of that a little bit more than the real reason why I was doing it, which was to be the best footballer I could be.

24:12I wonder whether that changed anything in your daughter's mind after she heard that.

24:17Jake Humphrey: You know what, Alex was fantastic. When my daughter came with me, she came in and she saw it almost like a real responsibility to be a brilliant role model. So we were going into the interview and she came back and said to my daughter, are you going to be here when we finish? And my daughter said yes. And she said, I want to come and have a proper chat with you then. And then true to her word, we finished the interview and she rushed in. And she must have spent 20 minutes talking to my daughter about her interests, what she liked, about how she could maintain her enthusiasm for her sports. She was just the embodiment of what you would want a hero to be for somebody.

24:56Jake Humphrey: So, yeah, I think that she looks up to Alex and therefore to listen to the way that she described this is a really powerful one, that she's not some knee-jerk reactionist. She's thoughtful, considered. And if she's suggesting that this isn't helpful for young girls, who are we to argue? I love that for Rose. I'd like to play a clip as well. because I know that for young girls, particularly when it comes to body image, there are some serious questions that social media has to answer. But there's a real issue for boys as well. And Jonathan Haidt spoke about the real-world issues that boys have when it comes to being online and being connected.

25:34Have a listen. So there you go, Jonathan Haidt talking about video games, talking about porn. I mean, that line there, they blow out their dopamine circuits early. So I was talking to a friend about the social media ban. and he said I'm not sure we're going to do it in our house because our kids aren't addicted to social media and I have to say like of all the things we do it makes them so happy to be online of course it freaking makes them happy to be online mate because it's feeding their dopamine addiction that their mobile phones and their tablets have given them and I think we don't we don't understand this therefore we don't see the problem with it and the best way to describe this to you if you're listening to this and you're thinking what is this talk about a dopamine an addiction every time and we've all been there you sit there having dinner or i mean one of the bad things for me is watching a film i don't know how many times i feel they need to pick up a phone when i'm watching a film and i i add an excuse which is i'm just finding out about an actor like

26:27Johann Hari: i never used to have to google the age of an actor 30 years ago or find out what other films they'd been in do you know what i mean or or if i'm watching season five of only murders in the building you know my my kids will have have to go straight on the internet to find out when season 6 is being released. It's not anything, you don't care, but you have the need, the deep requirement to lift up a device. So I think people don't understand that every time we reach for our phones, it's this injection of dopamine. Our body is saying, oh, I'm not feeling that happy, reach for your phone and cheer me up.

26:57Therefore, yes, your kids are happy when they're looking at a device, but the flip side of that is that your children sink into a depression, a lull, or a low, when they're not looking at a device. And we've had periods, don't you, you're the same where our kids have wanted to be on a phone and we've said no and they've been like crack addicts they've been like screaming at us curled up in a ball on the floor the world's

27:19Johann Hari: unfair you're the worst parents ever i only want to message my friends like genuinely almost shaking with the knee to pick up you you can relate to that yeah i mean there was a brilliant clip on

27:29Jake Humphrey: breakfast television yesterday where the reporter was responding to kia starmer's press conference and she asked there was a group of kids sat in the classroom and she said how many of you are happy with this social media band and not one of them they were all furious about it and then in the same classroom she went to the the pastoral care manager and said what do you think about it and she was like i am so delighted this issue i get parents coming in i get kids coming in i get teachers coming in and tell me and she gave you the full tsunami of him of the impact that kids having phones at this young age is causing for her when she sees the stuff that happens in the shadows.

28:08Jake Humphrey: You go and ask the kids, the kids were furious. And it reminded me of, do you remember when Jamie Oliver did his big campaign for school dinners? And he used a great analogy. He said, if you ask kids, what do you want to read in English? They'd want to read porn magazines because it's easy, but they don't want to read Shakespeare because it requires a bit of effort. And he was using the analogy that, of course, kids want to eat burgers and turkey Twizzlers at lunchtime rather than having something nutritional and healthy for them. So go and ask a group of kids, are you happy with this? Of course you're going to say no, because it's easy access, dopamine hits.

28:43Jake Humphrey: But that's why we don't let kids choose their own reading on the English curriculum. That's why we choose what they eat at dinners and lunchtimes, because we want them to have a healthy balance. And it's up to us as adults in this situation to intervene and go, of course you would want this, because you see that sort of crack addict response when you get taken off them. But it's our job as a responsible adult in this to go, no, no, we're drawing a line for you.

29:11Johann Hari: Well, look, it's so interesting. And as we draw this to a close, I know what you'll be thinking as parents. You'll be thinking, please help me. Like, how do we deal with this? One very practical thing that we've done in our family, we now have a lockbox.

29:23Jake Humphrey: Go on.

29:24Johann Hari: I mean, well, it's a box that just locks our phones away. We can't have access to them for an hour or so. So we say, right, for the next hour, no one has their phone in, they go into the box. and obviously if there's an emergency, you can access it if you need to, but we don't have them. That's good. But Jonathan Haidt has got four norms to sort of practically frame this, and I'll just share those with you. And then I think you've got a statement from Smartphone Free Childhood, which we'd like to read out. So Jonathan Haidt says, and this is great advice for all of you listening to this, no smartphone before the age of 14.

29:54No social media before the age of 16. phone free schools more independence and free play in the real world

30:02Johann Hari: and you know what I think people look at those and think pretty radical no phones at school no social media before 16 that's literally our life only 10-15 years ago Jonathan Knight said something really interesting he said you know human beings have been around for thousands of years this has only been an issue for the last 10 you know we're acting like it's our everything This is just a man-made creation of the last few years. Let's unpick it as quickly as we created it. And Smartphone Free Childhood have done so much great work on this. They're a respected body. They're parents who really care about their kids.

30:39I think we should end with a quote from them because I know you've been talking to them.

30:42Jake Humphrey: Well, I love them. They're a grassroots movement. And about five years ago, I was tempted to go to my kid's school and speak to the head teacher about my worry about the use of smartphones. And it wasn't the right time. It was almost like, oh, it wasn't an issue and nothing ever happened. And then when we interviewed John Hite, he gave us access to a letter that you could submit. And again, I took it to the kids' schools and gave them the evidence from him and nothing changed. So when I saw Smartphone Free Childhood, this grassroots organisation of concerned parents, they sort of mobilised and did it in such an effective way that they've been central to getting change.

31:23Jake Humphrey: They've been central to getting the law changed. So I contacted Daisy Greenwell, one of the founders of Smartphone Free Childhood, just to congratulate her yesterday. And I asked if she wanted to share anything for our listeners. And if you'll allow me, I'd just like to read out what Daisy responded. She said, Smartphone Free Childhood began because parents could see something wasn't right. we were watching childhood change before our very eyes. There was less play, less independence, more anxiety, more distraction and more children struggling under the weight of devices and platforms that were never designed with their wellbeing in mind.

32:03Jake Humphrey: What started as conversations around kitchen tables and in playgrounds has become a movement of hundreds of thousands of families choosing to delay smartphones and social media to create the sort of childhoods we believe all kids deserve. Yesterday's announcement of a social media ban for under-16s is a huge step forward and a testament to the power of parents, teachers and young people being willing to speak up The reason change is now on the table is because ordinary people refuse to accept that this was simply the way things had to be But this ban isn't a silver bullet It'll only work if the movement to protect childhood from the excesses of big tech continues If listeners care about this issue, the most important thing they can do is to keep the conversation going with their children, with other parents, with their schools and with government.

32:55Jake Humphrey: Because the goal isn't just policy change, it's culture change. It's a future where everyone understands that childhood should be shaped by families, communities and real world experiences, not by algorithms, clicks and likes. we want to give children back the things that no app can provide play presence confidence connection and the chance to grow up at their own pace that's the future we're building towards and together we can make it a reality brilliant brilliant brilliant well done then thank you very much and um if you want to know what happens when your phone explodes not literally but figuratively well the Liam Lawson conversation the Racing Bulls driver is out on Monday and you will

33:41Johann Hari: hear exactly what it's like for someone to go from racing driver to internet sensation overnight and not how amazing it felt how it stole so much of his joy and happiness if that isn't a salient tale for you listening to this then I don't know what is so um can I highlight yeah of course that

33:57Jake Humphrey: won't be on the record but I think it's been making me laugh since we did it was Liam's a King guitarist and he spoke to us about how it brings joy into his life and he played us a clip didn't he of him learning a new song and what delighted was we both seized on the fact that we recognised the song by the fray How to Save a Life

34:21Johann Hari: by the way I mean Liam Lawson has got an unbelievable singing voice oh beautiful yeah I mean I said to him would you ever do this professionally he sort of scoffed and laughed at that didn't he but I was genuinely like He has a really beautiful voice. But what made me laugh was our desperation to a bit like we...

34:38Jake Humphrey: We're your mates. No, it was more the fact that we knew a song that a 23-year-old guy was singing. Yeah, we only know it because they released it about 20 years ago

34:47Johann Hari: when we were almost 23. Thanks a lot, mate. Thank you, mate. Thanks very much for listening. Please, if you've got someone in your life or fellow parents or people at school or if you've got a school WhatsApp group or a village WhatsApp group and you think that people in those groups need to hear this conversation, please just click the share button and send them this episode of High Performance. Stick it in a WhatsApp group and let people hear the reality around the use of smartphones, the addiction to technology, and why now is an opportunity, as Damien says, not for us to save this current generation, because for many of them it's too late, but certainly to change the story for the next generation.

35:22Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.

35:31Thank you.

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