High Performance Racing is here! With Jake, Rob Smedley & Otmar Szafnauer

0:02Hi there, welcome along to another episode of High Performance. I'm here alongside my co-host, Damien Hughes. Hello, Damien. Hi, Jake. How are you, mate? You all right? I am very well, thanks. I've just got back from a few days in Madrid. Before we go any further, though, let's tell everyone that you've just got back from Japan. How was that?

0:20Jake Humphrey: Absolutely amazing. What a culture. What a culture it is. You know, when you see all the things like that, it's always the small things, isn't it, that stand out. So, you know, when you see World Cups where the players tidy the dressing room afterwards and the fans do it on the stadium, like nowhere in Japan do they have public bins because you're just expected to take responsibility for your own rubbish, take it home and recycle it. Small things like that stand out to me as a sign of a healthy society. I remember when I used to go to Japan often for the Formula One, the thing that stood out to me was when you're sitting on the train and the ticket inspector walks into the carriage to check your tickets, the very first thing they do is bow to the carriage and everyone bows back to them it's like this it's that there's a level of respect in japan for other human beings that i think we've lost a bit um in other parts of the world do you know of um do you know the phrase uh sonda and what it stands for damien no god so um sonda is a neologism coined by a guy called john koenig in 2012 for a project he was doing called the dictionary of obscure sorrows and if i was to define it i suppose it is this kind of profound realization you have at some point in your life that every random passerby is living a life as vivid as complex as chaotic as your own right they've all got their own ambitions their own friends their own routines their own worries and this understanding that kind of we're just a background character in their story in the same way that they're a back background character in our story um and and this this this kind of mindset that we need to stop treating everyone in 2d because they all live a life in 3d and i think that's something in japan that still exists there's still this respect care understanding for each other that i think other parts of the world have lost did you sense that yeah definitely like even like on the first day we'd landed in tokyo um we met up with somebody that took us around and sort of introduced us to some of the customs and it was like when you're on the train or in a lift you're not expected to be talking like just to just respect people's silence and again so you see it and like how quickly it takes you to adjust to it and then just enjoy it like no road rage you know even one of the biggest capital cities on the planet it was just a sense of order that yeah the whole thing was just really really special and uh the kids enjoyed it we uh i spent two days stood outside clothes shops in Tokyo watching the world go by.

2:50Jake Humphrey: Well, they were shopping that much. You know your job, mate. You know your job. I spent a lot of time standing outside clothes shops as well because Florence is now 13. So we've reached this point where Florence and Harriet can go to the same clothes shops and not just buy the same clothes, but the same clothes in the same size. My wife and my teenage daughter are wearing the same clothes. So like we went to the gym one And then Florence just wore Harriet's gym stuff. And for me, like, I still see a two-year-old sitting on my lap. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, learning how to eat. And it's very strange.

3:24Jake Humphrey: How does Harriet feel about her? I think she kind of likes it. I think we both, we're both mourning the fact that we, like, we both mourn the babies we no longer have. But I think that's probably a common thing for parents of older children. But equally, this is just as magical, if not more magical, than any other stage of childhood, I think. Yeah, of course. It just keeps getting better, doesn't it? I think so. the sort of challenges maybe are not as physical. They become more emotional than mental. But yeah, it's a blessing. Absolutely. Well, I obviously mentioned Formula One and my time traveling the world.

3:57And that's today's big announcement. People can, for the first time, right now, listen to episode one of High Performance Racing, our new podcast focused on the world of Formula One. It's an exciting moment for the high performance brand, I think, you know.

4:10Jake Humphrey: Oh, I think it's incredible. But I'm interested in, why have you did, I know how passionate you are about it and I know how much you love that time you've spent really immersed in the world for it. But why have you chosen to do this now? Well, I think in many ways it's driven by the audience. You know, when we release episodes of High Performance, it's guest led stuff. Right. So it's all about the guest who's joining us. And, you know, if we have footballers on, the reaction's kind of cool. If we have psychologists and writers and visionaries, then we get a great reaction. If we have people that have been in the heart of something incredible, like Bear Grylls as an explorer or a member of the military, we get a great reaction and good numbers.

4:49But when we talk about Formula One and high performance, it gets numbers and a reaction like nothing else. And it's very interesting how much the Formula One community have lent into what we've done, how much the Formula One world, in terms of the drivers and the team principals and the people working in the sport, have enjoyed the content and the coverage that we've offered. because I think we look at the sport in a way that no other podcast does. And the audience really just wanted more, Damien. So this is definitely a departure for us because if you look at our other shows like Untapped and On The Mend and The Room Where It Happened, all of them are based around helping people to find their own version of high performance, whereas high performance racing is basically a pure Formula One podcast all about that world of F1.

5:32And I'm excited to go back into having those conversations that, to be honest, I've missed.

5:36Jake Humphrey: And you've got two fascinating guests that we've had on the High Performance podcast that are joining you. Tell us who are they and a bit about why you've chosen them. Yeah, good question, actually. Well, look, if you're listening to this conversation with myself and Damien and you don't know what high performance racing is, it launches today and it's not me on my own. It's me alongside a guy called Rob Smedley and a man called Omar Safnauer. Now, the reason why we've chosen these two, Damien, I guess there's a couple of reasons. The first one is they've been there and done it, right? Rob Smedley was the guy who was the race engineer for Felipe Massa when he was challenging Lewis Hamilton for the world title and when I was doing the Formula One Rob became our go-to guy actually for interviews about what was happening in the sport from a technical perspective because he's from Middlesbrough he's got a very sort of grounded and simple way of describing a very complex and challenging sport so Mark Wilkin who was my producer on the BBC F1 coverage no matter what the story was if it involved technical regulation conversations we were like let's get Rob Smedley on actually to the point right Damien where Ferrari were getting a bit annoyed because Rob Smedley was getting more airtime on the BBC than like the Ferrari team principal or the Ferrari chairperson and sometimes they were like well do you want to speak to other members of our team and partly Rob Smedley's a Brit and it was a British broadcaster but no I've never met anyone that can explain the complexities of everyone in such a simple way so Rob Smedley is our kind of technical expert.

7:01And then there are very few people who've ever been team principals in Formula One. You know, there's probably as few team principals as there are drivers. Not many people have done the job to actually run a Formula One team, which is operating across various countries with hundreds of people. It's a real big challenge. And while I was working in Formula One, if you wanted a warm welcome, and not everybody gave you a warm welcome, if you wanted a warm welcome, you went to Force India. And the man who was the Force India team boss was a guy called Otmar Safnauer, who again has been a guest on High Performance.

7:30And every time you went in there, there was a cup of tea, there was a hug, there was warmth from that team. And that was created by Otmar. And he then went on to work for Alpine and for Esther Martin. He's done some of the biggest deals in the sport. I mean, this is a guy, Damien, who when his team was struggling financially, he paid the wages of the staff for two consecutive months and that ran into the millions. And he was never sure whether that money would even come back to him. That's the kind of guy he is. so I always wanted to do a Formula One podcast but it had to be done with the right people with nice people with genuine people with interesting people and Robin Ottmar um are those two people and of course they're brilliant friends a bit like you and I are on high performance like you have to get on with each other and they're great mates and I think that makes a difference.

8:13Jake Humphrey: So in a world then if so if I'm a listener now thinking I've got infinite choice when it comes to Formula One podcasts and getting my content from that world what is it that makes high performance racing unique and different well there's no show that has a has an engineer and a team principal on it there's lots of podcasts with drivers and ex-drivers and lots of podcasts with journalists but no podcasts with people who have actually sat there on the pit wall giving instructions as Rob Smedley did to Felipe Massa to pull over to let a teammate through um there aren't people who've had to to sit at the very forefront of those big big deals in Formula One like Otmar has.

8:54Otmar's a guy who's hired a lot of people. He's also a guy who's lost his job. He's a guy who knows how ruthless Formula One can be as much as how brilliant Formula One can be. So no other podcast really brings people Formula One in this way. But the other thing, mate, is when we recorded our first episode a few days ago, it's so much fun. Honestly, I really hope that when people tune in and we'll play a little clip now, is that they just enjoy it. Like Formula One, it's such a fascinating sport, but it's an entertainment sport more than anything else. And I want it to be entertainment. You know, I think our podcast is quite deep and quite heavy.

9:27Sometimes people message us out there and they're like, I loved it, but I had to pull the car over and start making notes. Or I had to listen to it again after my dog walk to actually work out what was being said. Whereas this is just going to be light. It's going to be fun, but it's also going to be informative. So I think people are going to love it. Should we play a clip?

9:43Jake Humphrey: I think that'd be brilliant. I'd love to hear it. And I'm excited to start being a weekly subscriber to it as well, As a novice to the world of Formula One, I think anyone that can explain the nuances in, like, say, a simple way that Rob's able to do, I think it'll be a game changer. Well, here it is then. Let's sit back and enjoy together some of the first episode of High Performance Racing.

10:19you're new to audio or ready to sharpen your skills our self-paced courses fit your schedule and finish with an industry-recognized certification so if you want to grow your expertise and stand out in a competitive industry head to go.acast.com forward slash academy

10:38we should start by the fact that this is our first ever show and we've launched on a week where there's no Grand Prix. That wasn't the plan. What's sort of going on behind the scenes on a week like this where Formula 1 will feel that they should be racing and they're not from an organizational perspective, from a financial perspective? I remember just when I started at Force India, Bahrain had some fuss and nearly canceled that race, but we got through it. And our first race in Saudi, all the drivers got up in arms because the Houthis were, there was some missile that. There was unrest, wasn't there?

11:21There was unrest. And you could, and the drivers. An oil depot or something got attacked. Exactly, which wasn't far away. And the smoke from the oil depot, the drivers had to drive through. And they all got up in arms and said, we shouldn't be doing this. But that went through as well. So I think this is the first time this kind of unrest has stopped at Grand Prix. a big break for everyone yeah is that what they'll be thinking? yeah I don't know I think it so the last time I remember this happening when we had a break was COVID obviously huge and that was that was much more indefinite than this is right so this is kind of we know that there's two Grand Prix's cancelled the one after will not be cancelled so you kind of know where the break is that was much more like uncertain but I think it kind of upsets if you take how a Formula 1 team operates a good Formula 1 team it kind of operates on rhythms and it upsets the rhythm a little bit so definitely the guys who are at the front if you take Ferrari and Mercedes they'll just be wanting to get on with it because they know that they've got an advantage and you're never guaranteed an advantage in Formula 1 guys who are at the back will be looking at this as a golden opportunity to try to you know can they recoup some of the performance can they bring forward some of what you know that where they would have been in this cadence of racing they've now got some development time so i don't know i mean i i can't see it changing anything fundamentally but i i can remember when this happened in covid it does kind of upset your rhythm because you're expecting like a certain cadence and a certain like um what's the best way so like like the pressure changes.

13:04You're in a real rhythm as a Formula 1 people. We've all done it for years and years of our lives. And there's upgrade rhythms as well. You know when you're in the tunnel, you see what comes out of the tunnel, what you've got to do next. Do you put the, especially now with cost gap, do you actually put the parts on the car or do you wait? Do you package a bigger upgrade before you go? But I think you're right, Rob. What this will allow is a big enough break for the teams at the back to bring even bigger upgrades next time they go racing. They will look at this as an opportunity to close that gap, and the gap is huge this year.

13:42Two, three seconds a lap, I've never known it to be that way in my 30 years in Formula One. So what goes on then? When we say the teams at the back, we're basically talking Aston Martin and Williams. And Cadillac. Yeah, I guess. I sort of see Cadillac different, because I just think, will they be looking for performance or just reliability? I remember my first year in Formula One with British American Racing, brand new team. There were three people in February of 98 and 225 in March of 99 when we started racing. And although we had reliability issues, we were performant. We were qualifying top six.

14:20And in our second year, we finished fourth in the championship, tied fourth with Jordan. In year two. Year two of a brand new team, British American Racing. had three employees, like I said, in February of 98. And two years later, two years later in Australia, we finished fourth and sixth in that race with a Honda that was 20 horsepower down. What year was that, 99? No, 2000. 2000. Yeah. I remember Ejo saying a similar thing. What team was new to F1 when I was working with him in 2009 or 2010? Virgin. oh yeah Marussia Marussia Marussia all those different name changers he used to slate them EJ because he's like I don't know what they did in their first season but I think he says like we finished third in a race or fifth or something don't forget that EJ was really good too in his first year the 7 up car yeah that's what he was saying yeah EJ's right British American Racing did the same Stewart did the same yeah so what's changed then like why is it okay for Cadillac to get to a finish I think it's harder it is harder there's no doubt about it and don't forget like just going back those Marussia they came in on the promise of a rule set that never actually materialized.

15:35Because if you remember when there was all the argy-bargy back then, you'll probably, Otmar, you'll remember this. I remember this. But there was a lot of, like, there was this almost a breakaway formula happened and there was the Formula One, what was it called back then? Formula One Constructors Association? Was it FOCA? I think it was, yeah. Or no, there was... FOTA. FOTA. And then it became FOCA. No. No, but there's also a GPMA, Grand Prix Manufacturers Association. That's right. That's, I think, what you're talking about. Yeah. But Max Mosley had promised that there was going to be basically a twin-tiered formula.

16:11And all these new teams that rushed in on the back of that was if you spend below a certain cost cap, then you get more horsepower and it's a different rule set in terms of the aerodynamics and all of this. So you spend less. Don't need a wind tunnel? Yeah. But what happened was that never materialized. So all these teams rushed in without the infrastructure to do anything. Who was the team that said they were going to develop the car just on CFD? Yeah, that was Nick Wirth. That became Marussia. No wind tunnel. Yeah, exactly. So all of this stuff, it never materialized. That's why those teams were at the back.

16:46But I think that there's loads of examples. So Eddie, who we've all worked with or for in some shape or form. When he came in, yeah, he hit the ground running. So did Stuart. Stuart. That's next, probably. Yes, that got up at speed. British American Racing, you're right. I think it is harder now. It is harder, right? But why? Cadillac have got so much money, so many people. They don't have the tools. So there's a few things. There's simulation tools now that teams develop themselves. So even CFD, you know, you might buy a CFD computational fluid dynamics program off the shelf, but you don't, that's not what you use.

17:34You develop it yourself. Yeah, you develop on top of it. And then when you develop on top of that, no one can buy that. And if you're a new team now, you can't buy that. Yeah, you might go to Fluent and get the basic program, but that's it. And those tools that those teams have developed over time help them with car development and going quicker. And that's something Cadillac doesn't have. So how can Cadillac ever be competitive in one, two, or three years? The best way to do it is by the right people. Right. Shortcut it through people. Because you can't forget what you know if you bring the knowledge with you.

18:12You can't forget what you know. And especially if you're the guy who developed that bit of software that they need. Tire model. Give you an example. You don't have a good tire model, your simulator's useless. Can you buy a tire model? Not a good one. Develop it yourself. All the methods are... It's never... Formula One, people get a bit confused and say, there's a superstar coming into a team, so that's going to change everything. That's utter bollocks, right? There is no Messiah. There is no Messiah. Even Adrian Newey. No, Adrian can't do it single-handedly. He can't do it all. So in the day, right, in 1998, 1999, when British American Racing started and all those teams before that, you could test as much as you want.

18:57You'd go to a race and then you'd go testing. We'd have five cars, right? Two test cars, three race cars. You'd be testing as more than you were racing. When you test that much, how much do you need a driver in loop simulator? Zero. Yeah, you don't. You don't. But now, no testing. Things have changed. And now you need a driver-in-loop simulator, a good one, that replicates the car. Now you need a good tire model, a good one, that replicates the car. You need a good aero model for your driver-in-loop simulator, a good vehicle dynamics model. And if you don't have that, then you don't do any testing.

19:34And these models are so hard to build and get right. It takes time. Yeah, and it takes time. And it takes a lot of, like, we're getting, like, very technical now, but it's a lot of correlation. It's kind of building, so you need really, really clever people who understand modeling, like high-fidelity models. A bit of mathematics. Mathematics, physics, all of that stuff. And then you need to then correlate that, so you need to match that against what's really going on on the track. Yeah, reality. That's a massive amount of work. Honestly, that is a huge amount. That is literally years in the making.

20:06So you cannot expect, I don't think, a new team to commit. And you've got to correlate CFD to the tunnel. To the tunnel. Tunnel to the track. Track, track to CFD. You got all that going on. This sounds like a big job for Cadillac. Could they pick up points this season? Tough. Yes, yes, they can. Of course they can. Freak races, of course they can. Like rain and... Yeah, they just need to be there. They're falling off. But not in terms of pure speed, in terms of... Tough. No. No points this season. Tough. Very, very hard. So let's talk then about what goes on when there's this break. Like, as you've already said, there are some teams that will be loving this.

20:45I mean, Williams and Aston, we can talk about them in detail. But I do want to talk about how Mercedes and Ferrari will be feeling. Because I think that people haven't really picked up on the fact that this could fundamentally change the world championship missing these two races. Because now those teams have got the advantage. Like Jenson Button in 2009. If you'd have taken away two of his race wins towards the start of that bronze season, he doesn't win the world title. And that is a genuine thing, that Mercedes could have double the lead after four races. Everyone else is then catching up. So this could deny them winning the world championship losing these races.

21:19Could, but I think their advantage is so great it won't. But you're absolutely right. It would have been better had we had two more races. Yeah. And don't forget, like, I think you're right because what is fundamentally different about a new rule set than a mature rule set, It's how fast people can develop the cars, right? Like the cars now have like compared to their potential, even the Mercedes compared to the potential, right? If you run this Mercedes, everybody looks at this Mercedes and says, what a great car. You run this Mercedes against the Mercedes in 18 months time, and it will be a second and a half slower.

21:57It will look like Neanderthal car, right? Significant difference for Mercedes and the rest of them is the rest of them can look at the Mercedes and say, aha, that's what they've done to get to this level. Mercedes can't look at anybody to say, ah, what do I do next? They got to creatively think of what's coming next to go faster. Where everyone else can look and say, okay, so you catch up quicker. The other ones that aren't there, you learn from Mercedes or from Ferrari. That's what Adrian Newey does, walking around on the grid. Every car, he's learning something. And you shortcut that process.

22:32Where Mercedes, they're just out there. And you're right. In 18 months' time, that Mercedes will be much quicker. but they have nobody to look at to learn. They can look at the others and learn something. It's a harder job for them. It's a harder job for them. But like this two-week gap, I think that's what we're talking about, right? This two-race gap, which is a month gap or whatever, when you don't have to concentrate on that grind of just taking the car to the circuit and all of the work that generates. Because it's not just there's a group of people that are over here on stage left, you know, the operational like 60 and then the other people that go to the track and the rest of the factory doesn't really get involved in that.

23:09The whole factory is involved in the race weekend, right? Yeah, yeah. And so it just takes your focus away from pure development. So if the teams, this is not to guarantee that the teams at the back can get it right in those, you know, with this gifted two, three weeks, but it gives them an opportunity. They will develop at a higher rate than the teams up front because A, they're further back, and B, they can look at what the others have done. And if they're developing at a higher rate and you don't have those two races, it'll get closer together and it benefits those at the back. That's the way I see it.

23:46Obviously, you're my favorite ever team principal. Thank you. I'm my favorite ever... You're my favorite ever race engineer. That's why we're here. Just say Felipe Baby for me. Felipe Baby. I'd be happy with you're my favorite ever team principal that's alive because I know you like Eddie Jordan a lot. I did love Eddie Jordan. But I also am very impressed by Toto Wolff. I just am like his leadership his management I remember when just because he's tall I do like tall people I do sort of like tall people and he's also very handsome he also like you know when someone has a bit of presence he does have that Toto don't you think yeah like you sort of feel like you're you're around someone that knows what they're doing yes I went to the factory not long ago and we had a little walk around and he was showing me you've probably seen this they're developing like crazy building loads of stuff there yeah yeah yeah lots is going on at Mercedes and that's where British American Racing started by the way it is yes absolutely yeah because I think people don't often understand that that team was BAR then it was Honda then it was Braun then it was Mercedes it's like that to the multi almost billion dollar complex in Silverstone now same team but the reverse same the reverse of it so yeah did I get this right then it went Jordan so Honda was a bit better than BAR.

25:05Braun actually won a world championship. Mercedes then won nine of them. And here, it's gone backwards. What from Jordan? What you think Aston Martin is? Have you seen the building though at Aston Martin? It's insane. No, the results. The results, yeah. So Jordan to Spiker. How many Spiker? To Midland to Force India. Yes. Is that the right way around? Did it go Midland? Did it go Spiker then Midland? I think so. I think Spiker then Midland. Then Force India. And Racing Point. Oh, no. Midland and Spiker. Midland and Spiker. Racing. Then Force India. Then Racing Point. Then Aston. Best building.

25:45Worst results. Is that what we're saying about the Aston market? It's a different building. It's a different building. It's a lovely building. But anyway, another lovely building. What a lovely building. It's Mercedes, right? Bosco Quinn. Who's that? Bosco Quinn. Who's Bosco Quinn? Bosco Quinn was a dealmaker. For Eddie. Of Eddie's. Bosco. Do you remember Bosco? So Bosco Quinn, I never met him, but I used to park in the spot that had a plaque for Bosco Quinn. Yeah, that's right. He worked night and day, from what I understand, tirelessly to get the small Eddie Jordan factory going. And because he was working so late, I think fell asleep behind the wheel and he was killed, tragically in a car accident.

26:31And they put a plaque up and planted a tree in his honor just outside of... And unfortunately, nobody knew that story. And when that building went, they also cut the tree down. Shouldn't have done that. Did they really? Yeah. No, I didn't know that. But he was a legend. I mean, even when I was there, they talked about Bosco all the time. So what was Bosco's job? Because Eddie does his own deals, surely. Well, I think it was whatever Eddie needed. Yeah. Yeah. Really? Irish guy. And unfortunately, Eddie couldn't pay people that much back then. You know, all the money went into starting a Formula One team.

27:12So Bosco would wear some of Eddie's hand-me-downs, and Eddie was a lot shorter than Bosco. So the trouser didn't fit that well. I need to see a picture of Bosco handed down, Eddie Jordan clothes. I mean, this is painting a picture. You would have met him though. You would have worked with Bosco. No, no, I never met him. Before your time. It was before my time. So when I was there, Eddie's right hand was Ian Phillips. Yeah, yeah, I remember Ian. Do you remember Ian? Ian was great. Ian worked for me at Force India. Did he? He did. He was there that long. You're comms guy, aren't you? Yes. Yeah. We should start a petition on this show to get the Bosco Quinn tree and plaque put back.

27:51Yes. Plant a new tree. It should be somewhere. Yeah. Absolutely. All right, well, we're going to investigate that and make it happen. be bring back all the Jordan legends into Formula 1 I don't mean like bring them back to like resurrect them I mean bring them back to Formula 1 what about that yes I'm all for anything involving Eddie Jordan and Formula 1 like I want to keep it going forever I'd like the Jordan team to come back but hey I actually love it one night who's driving a yellow DHL car in India at the moment and dominating Alex Palu I can't look at Alex Palu's car without thinking of Jordan yeah do you want that for Chip Ganassi racing yeah so anyway back to Toto Wolff and Mercedes he has these plaques on the wall there and it has all of the world championships that they've won and other teams have won over the last few years but then a load of empty plaques and when we walked around together he was sort of saying to me like I've put this up here to remind everyone in the team that that might be our past but the history is not yet written and I want to see the Mercedes logo on all of these next plaques and there's like numerous of these around the factory everywhere you go so my question for you guys is seeing how far ahead they are with the drivers they've got the money they've got the finances the setup the history the knowledge of winning could we be at the start of another period of Mercedes dominance a new Mercedes era I think yes I think yes I mean in the past they were dominant a bit due to powertrain but also good knowledge of what you need to make a car go quick.

29:26So they've had both. And they had great drivers. And I think they've got all that now. They stumbled a bit with this, the era of ground effect. I don't think they got that right. Why sometimes can a team not just sort that out when they're struggling? That's the beauty of Formula One. It's the same people. They could, they were the only ones, and us, after a while, that ran a low ride height car in the rear. Do you remember? Yeah. And won with it. Everyone else did the Adrian Newey trick of high ride height in the rear, rear, seal the floor aerodynamically, get more downforce. They didn't, and they still won.

30:11And then when the ground effect happened, they probably didn't understand it as well. Couldn't do it. Couldn't do it. So why do you think this is the start of a new dominant era for Mercedes? So I was reasonably close to Mercedes because we had the Mercedes engine at Williams in their last period of dominance. And I think towards the end, there was perhaps a little bit of self-assuredness there in Mercedes that didn't need to be there. You know what I mean? They'd won all these world championships. And you start to... I know what this is like because I remember it at Ferrari. you start to feel like you can dominate anything, right?

30:54And that's when it gets really dangerous. And I just noticed bits and pieces of that creeping in, you know, when you would talk to them. I think a period of, and I know they won't mind me saying this, I think a period of getting your ass kicked does you the world of good, right? You keep getting, you know, you kind of think you're the kings of the world and you're going to dominate this sport forever. And then you go through this really fallow period, right? And you can't get yourself out. You don't know how to get out of it. And you don't know how to get out of it, right? And that gives you a lot of humility.

31:25That resets the whole baseline, right? And you realize that you're all not walking like six inches above the ground. You're all not gods. You're all not who you thought you were, right? You've now had your asses kicked. So now it's kind of feet on the ground, like humility, heads down, start working. I love that psychology answer. That's what I should have said. But I'm going to tell you why I think. They've done a great job on the powertrain. Yeah. And first time ever, there's a powertrain cost cap. You can't infinitely spend your way out of a bad powertrain if you don't have a Mercedes because there's a cost cap.

32:07So that'll hold some of the others back and will allow that advantage they have today to stay, number one. And number two, there's also a freeze that comes in, a progressive freeze on the powertrain. first time ever. So those two things will maintain their advantage on the powertrain side. There is, if you're so far behind, there are tokens that you can now have to redevelop and maybe even some headroom on cost cap. I don't know the rules that well. I need to ask that question. But you got to be two or four more percent behind for that to happen. And I think there's talk now of Mercedes not showing their true hand so that Ferrari are still within that 2 % so they don't get any further development tokens.

32:56Yeah, yeah, but for sure, it becomes like, this is what... But this is the first time ever, this kind of ruleset. That is interesting. I hadn't thought about that. So when the whole token thing come out... Clever. When the whole token thing come out, there was some teams that kind of went and looked at GT racing because GT racing has this thing called balance of performance, right? BOP. And this BOP thing is like, okay, if you're a certain amount ahead, in GT racing or endurance racing, they peg you back. I think it's on engine and ballast or something like that. I don't really know. Definitely weight.

33:27Right. So they went to, so some of the teams actually went to the, like the endurance, the world's endurance car teams, and said, okay, how do you play this game? Because that's the game, right? Because you don't want to be miles ahead. If you turn up with a Ferrari endurance car or whatever, you don't want to be miles ahead because then you get pegged massively back. So you've got to play this game all the time. So yeah, there's no doubt that the top teams are already starting to think about that and how they don't like... So if you've got that written in the rules, that if you're so far behind, you get an opportunity to catch up.

33:58Yeah. And the guy up front for sure is going to say, hmm, they're not that far behind. Yeah. Knock it back. And are Ferrari far enough ahead of the third and fourth place teams to try and knock it back a bit, to try and create that gap, to try and get the token? or is that going too far down the playing games route? No, no, no, no. That is the game, right? So they will be playing that game. They want to fall back as far into that, into their gap to create a bigger gap in Mercedes but Mercedes can keep coming back so it becomes like... And the sport just gets slower and slower. Even slower than it is at the moment.

34:34I mean, we haven't really spoken and we'll talk more about Mercedes. I want to talk about Kimi Antonelli and George Russell and what you think of those drivers. I think we should also talk about whether Ferrari can win the world title this year. I want to talk about Lewis Hamilton and that difficult period he was in. We've got some questions from our audience as well. So there's a lot to go through. But as we're talking about the sport getting slower and slower, I mean, you two haven't even shared your views on F1 2026. Like, have Formula 1 broken their own sport this season? It's definitely different.

35:09And for me, what they got to fix is you want to see drivers drive at the limit. And I don't think with the formula we have today, they're driving at the limit the entire time. There are times where you're saving battery because that's the quickest way to the end. And I don't know if they've broken it, but it's not what it used to be. Are you a trailblazer? A risk taker? Maybe someone with countless tales of epic adventure? Well, I'm not quite there yet, but I'm working on it. Even the boldest among us started off small, right? Daring themselves to reach greater goals every day. And if you're looking to take on a challenge like that, the Defender is too.

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37:29ShipStation.com, code HPP. Weren't they previously saving tires and before that saving fuel? and like Formula 1 has Formula 1 ever been an out and out sprint to the finish? Not for a long time but definitely in qualifying. Is it not still in qualifying? No. No. Is it not? No. Why have I missed that then? What's going on there? Because you've got this energy imbalance right? That you can harvest less than you can use so you can't use all of like you can use much less on a lap than you can actually harvest on a lap so it becomes so you've got to play all of these i mean it's it's always been a little bit like this with like since we brought in the curves back in the day that you're playing all of these games with it but this now is like there's a there's a clear like it's too much energy imbalance and so the drivers can't drive the cars flat out they have to like do not even in qualified super clipping on the straight yeah and not in the race not even the race either and yes there are times where you know uh if you ran a little bit less fuel, your lap time was better, so you'd run a little bit left.

38:38There was a bit of lifting coast towards the end of the race, but that's nothing compared to what's happening today. But aren't we like just stuck with it? Like I see all the drivers moaning, worst it's ever been, not enjoying it. Yes, is the answer. Like this is it. This is how Formula 1 looks for the next few years. And I actually think the amount of overtaking I've seen in the first few races is someone that doesn't know the technical details that you know. And I sit and watch every race with Sebastian, my 10-year-old. Mate, when we were watching Lewis and Charles in China, lap after lap, having a go at each other, my boy was jumping around in front of the telly.

39:14I think that's great. That's what, and he's not done that for seasons. He hasn't done that before. As long as that's not artificial, and it'll continue, it'll be fine. But I think once everyone sorts out their energy usage of the battery, all that kind of stuff goes away, and you'll have processional races. There's a thing in IndyCar for a couple of years called the Hanford device. Do you remember that thing? Yes. What was it on the rear wing? It was on the rear wing that just created less drag for the car following. That's right. Much less drag to the point where even though you lost downforce, you could easily overtake.

39:55And they would have on an oval three, 400 overtakes. But at the end, you never wanted to be leading because you wouldn't win because the guy behind you could overtake you so easily and they got rid of the Hanford device because it was artificial lots of overtaking just like you said yeah but it wasn't real you know the other interesting thing is when you've been starved of overtaking it's the thing that excites you the most if we're suddenly seeing 150 overtakes a race and they're not real and they're not real i wonder how quickly that then we lose the interest in that and we're looking for something else to make it go watch a couple of IndyCar races with the Hanford device and that'll answer your question really I remember watching it I mean Formula 1 like Formula 1 is an entertainment right I mean as much like I'm my profession is engineer and as much as I would love it just to be all about engineering that's quite boring for the public to watch right that's they especially for the new fans Yeah, one and a half billion people touch Formula One every single year, right, in some way, shape, or form.

41:03Like, what do they care about? Like, this, like, almost, in their eyes, an unnecessary, like, new technology in this, in the hybridized, like, power unit. What they really care about is exactly what you're saying, you know, you and your 10-year-old son, Seb, would do. You'd sit at home and you'd watch it and you'd think, oh, this is great, looking overtaking here, there. Purists won't. Like, you know, Otmar, me, you, Jake, I think, we're F1 purists because we've been in and around the sport forever. So you kind of look at it and go, yeah, all right, great, but a bit artificial. But like, you've got to think about like the 1.6, 1.5 billion people who touch Formula One and engage with it.

41:45Like, that's what they want, right? They don't want to sit there and go, well, this is a very pure race and I've seen, you know, the energy deployment, you know, perfect management by George. Yeah, boring. Utterly boring. It's an entertainment. And I think, like, can I just say, right, shout out to Liberty Media, who finally broke what was an identity crisis for F1. Because I think since we started in F1, it didn't know what it was. It went through such a long period of, is it a technological pursuit? Is it entertainment? Is it sport? And Liberty came in and went, it's entertainment. It's entertainment.

42:19Get on with it. Here's how we're going to shape it. So at least we've got that, right? Once it's entertainment, though, from my perspective, then you can get rid of this hybrid powertrain. Because the reason for the hybrid powertrain is to lead road cars. And once you say our powertrains don't need and the technology doesn't need to lead road cars, then just make it entertainment. Yep. And you have to do that without losing the manufacturers because the manufacturers want Formula One technology to lead what's coming in road cars. Yeah, but do you buy a road car because you know the technology was developed in Formula 1?

42:57I don't think the general public do. I certainly wouldn't. No, no, no. I definitely don't. But that's not how manufacturers look at the sport. We're in it to develop our technology and tell the story that a little bit of Formula 1 went into that car. Yeah. So we've had questions. But if you can get rid of that, then total entertainment. Is it time to go back to V8s? Is it time to go back to naturally aspirated? is it time to go back to the biggest, loudest, fastest engines that Formula One can find? To me, if it's all about entertainment, that's what you do. Yeah. Because a big part of the entertainment to me was the noise.

43:33Yeah. Of course it was. Can you… What is the first time that you ever remember being at a Formula One race and actually hearing it? Mine was 08 in China, my first ever Grand Prix. Like… Unbelievable. You'd grown up around motorsport, you two. I'd never been to a race in my life. 1984 Detroit Grand Prix. What engines were they running then? That's a good question. V10s? It would be a mix. 84 was a mix of V12s and V10s. What's your first memory of hearing that? My first memory was I couldn't see the car because it was coming down the straight. This is in Detroit. And it was a long straight with a 90-degree left-hander.

44:17And I could hear the car, and I'm thinking, Just through the noise, there's no way they're going to make that turn. There's no way. They're all going off. And what astounded me was a braking performance and actually braking so late. So first the noise, then late braking, and actually every one of them made that turn. And I was hooked. I thought, man. I thought, number one, I couldn't do that. If I'm driving that car, there's no way I could do that. And two, I was surprised that everyone did it. They all got through there. And the noise. And the noise. What's your first memory of it? 88, Silverstone.

44:59So we paid for, my dad got us Friday tickets and forced me to go. So I was like, man, I don't want to fucking watch this shit. So we went and so he got us general admission. and then we I remember walking through the woodcut stand you know where the woodcut corner is onto the old pit straight walking through there and I think first of all like a LaRousse or something come past and then a McLaren with Senna in it and I was just like fuck me what was that right this thing come past so fast and I was like how is that even on the track exactly the same thing how is that even on the track and now like years later when I haven't had to like be on the pit wall or in the garage during the race, I always go out, right, to remind myself, I go out when I'm at Silverstone to Beckett's.

45:58Have you ever stood at the side of the track at Beckett's? I have. Very privileged, right? I mean, not in the grandstands, you're a bit far away. Like if you can stand where the marshals are, and I've done it a few times, it is insane. These things are like fighter jets on the ground. I can remember, here's a good story bit. I can remember we went to the pre-ground effect, so the hybrid era, and we went to the big tyres and all the downforce. And I remember the first practice, both of our drivers, so I was at Williams, and both Felipe Massa and Valtteri Bottas, they go out, they do their first run in P1.

46:39I'm allowed to swear? Yeah. Yeah, okay, good. They do their P1. they pull up outside the garage, you know, like the kind of, the cars come down the pit line and they always point towards the pit wall. And then the mechanics pull them in. And both of them, so I used to listen to both of them, and both of them in stereo went, fuck me, it's fast around here now. Like through that thing. And then I remember seeing Sergio in the paddock afterwards and he was like, oh man, this is so fast through Beckett's now. It took them like all of Friday and a bit of Saturday morning to get used to it. That fast is unbelievable.

47:12I mean, you're pulling the first left-hander that you do on the entry to Beckett's, 7G, right? Fighter pilots train at 3, 3.5, and some of them are blackout at 4. These boys are pulling 7G on the left-hander laterally, right? And then 4, 4.5, even 5 probably, or 5 just before this rule change, into the next right-hander. Unbelievable. So interesting, isn't it? Because F1 has never been more popular. but I go to races with friends who've never been and they go it's so loud in your head your head's going oh so annoying I wish you were here 15 years ago like this this is nothing this is not it and it's like and for me the crescendo at the start of a race around Monaco do you remember Monaco at the start of the Grand Prix bouncing off all the buildings man we've got to find a way of getting that back into the sport.

48:12Because it's like, F1 is amazing and it's so popular. Imagine if we now, into this world of Formula 1, put those engines and that, you know when they were like, they were like of the worldly creatures, the cars, weren't they? They felt like alive. Now I think you look at them and you don't feel that. You feel less of it. I think so. They're so much bigger. I know we've gone a bit smaller with this generation, 200 mil, but they're still big, big cars. I mean, if you see them against an early 2000s car, 600 kilograms, those cars, right? You take, like, a little Formula 4 car now with 160 brake horsepower, so, like, four tiers down, the clues in the name, Formula 4 from Formula 1, they're 600 kilos with 160 horsepower.

48:55These things were 600 kilos with, like, 900 horsepower. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These were machines. Yeah. Okay. 2004, we had 968 horsepower out of a naturally aspirated V10. And the big difference there was, and I don't want to play like, you know, current Formula One and all the rest of it, but the big difference there was you couldn't get a 16, 17-year-old step into those cars and be quick. Because it just, they were just like, my God, what have I got into here? And it took them half a season before they even got on top of it. You know, times were different back then, so they could have done... You don't even get half a season now.

49:33Yeah, you could have done 30 ,000 kilometers or whatever. You get half a race for people to make their decision. Four or five races and you're out. Let's talk actually about the drivers. We were talking about Mercedes before. I do want to sort of just touch on George Russell and Kimi Antonelli. I'd like to know how impressed you guys are with Kimi Antonelli. But I also want to know whether you think that what Mercedes have there is a driver pairing good enough for the car. Is that a driver pairing to carry them through? Definitely. Totally, yeah. Definitely. Why? 100%. Well, to me, look, at the beginning of the season, you always get better odds if you bet on the world champion at the end before the season starts.

50:10And for me, I thought, George. George, when he was up against Lewis, who was one of the best ever, held his own. Probably more than held his own. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. Right, beat him at the end. So George, definitely good enough. Won everything coming up through the lower formulas. And now, you can see how good Kimi is relative to George. Yeah, I still think like it will take a while. I mean, it goes back to what I just said, like putting a 16, 17-year-old in these cars or in the old cars, forget about it, right? Nobody ever did it. They needed years, a lot more training. It's easier now, it's still hard, right?

50:53So Kimi, and don't forget, Kimi didn't have the comfort of kind of hanging around at the back of the grid for a year, right? Being unnoticed. he's suddenly in one of the biggest teams in the biggest pressure cooker environment that's hard for him and I think to survive as well as he's done and do as well as he's done and now be winning races okay the race that he won at the start of this year was maybe a little bit down there was some misfortune in qualifying I think for George but anyway but Kimi won it but Kimi won it like George was there in the race without problems Kimi won it and for me Miami last year sprint weekend yeah Kimi had never seen that track before.

51:33Good one. Good one. You don't do that without talent. Yeah. Put it on Paul. He's very, very talented. I think he's very good. I also like the fact that when he got his chance to drive the Mercedes, he put it in the wall. I know people will go, oh my God, I can't believe he did that. You know what I mean? That free practice session. Yeah, I remember. He was pushing. Exactly. Isn't there something great that he had the cojones to go, I'm just going to go for this. And Toto said the most ridiculous thing. What did he say? Oh, did you see how fast he went through that corner? Thinking, yeah, too fast.

52:07He crashed. But also, this season, when he... It was too fast. It was. What would he say? David Coulthard would say he ran out of talent. So, Damien, there you go. Your first listen to High Performance Racing. Enjoy it?

52:25Jake Humphrey: I did. I thought it was brilliant. I love the dynamic between the three of you. there's a real warmth that I think comes through and also what I like is the fact that you're not a petrolhead are you let's be totally honest about this you you love elite sport you love what Formula 1 represents but you don't know DRS or ERS right no I've not got a clue about it but but but you enjoyed that yeah yeah definitely but that's great but that's what I mean I I think I'm your audience so if you're already passionate about it you'll love it I think if you if you're not that aware of it. That took me, I wouldn't have listened to more.

52:59I love it. Well, if you really want to hear more, then please right now, check out High Performance Racing. What you've just heard is only a snippet of episode one. If you tune in, you can hear what we thought about whether Lewis Hamilton can one day become an eight-time Formula One world champion. Of course, you can follow High Performance Racing on Instagram. You can check it out on YouTube as well. But it's also important to say, Damien, that we will still have the biggest and brightest names and voices from the world of Formula One. joining us here on High Performance because I think the conversations we have here are still not had anywhere else.

53:30And there's a dual role here that we go deep into the psychology of the sport and on High Performance Racing, we break down what happens when the psychology works or doesn't.

53:39Jake Humphrey: I think they complement each other ideally. I think if you're a subscriber to us at High Performance, get on this one. Brilliant. Love it. You're like a one-man advertising hoarding for High Performance Racing. Thanks a lot, mate. Thanks, mate. Good to catch up. Absolutely. as always please do keep your questions coming in and I would love you to check out High Performance Racing available right now wherever you get your podcasts