How Europe's youngest top-flight manager learned to BACK HIMSELF with Will Still (E213)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance app. you the five simple steps that take you from where you are to where you want to be. It's everything we've learned from the incredible guests that we've spoken to. It's never too late to change and this book will show you how to do it. How to Change Your Life is available to pre-order in hardback, ebook and audiobook now. Hi there, you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that unlocks the minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jake Humphrey, and alongside Professor Damien Hughes, we learn from the stories, successes and struggles of our guests, allowing us all to explore, be challenged and to grow.

1:10Here's what's coming up today. I'm big, I'm ginger, I talk half decent English, half decent French. I'm from Belgium, working in France, and I'm going to get things wrong. Deal with it. I'd pay to stand on a perfect football pitch, freshly mown grass, with a ball, 15, 18 players or more, and a set of cones. I'd pay to do that. I'm pretty sure I would have asked any one of those players to run at that brick wall and smash their head through it. They would have done it. Because, you know, that's what the team needed. You know, every person in the world says they hate losing games, but I actually feel proper, proper shit when I've lost the game.

1:53So today we welcome to High Performance the manager of Stade d 'Arra, Will Still. Now, Stade d 'Arra play in Ligue 1 in France, one of Europe's top five leagues. Will is the youngest manager in any big league in European football. He's 30 years old. Not only that, he started in management at 24. Can you imagine that? And he went from coaching the Preston under-14s team to taking his side up against Lionel Messi in just 10 years. it's such a huge leap in such a short space of time. And he's had to defy expectations. He's had to prove people wrong. He's had to deal with setbacks. He's had to have the courage of his convictions.

2:32And I think that was the biggest thing that stood out to me from this conversation with Will Still. His ability to make really big, level-headed decisions when the stakes are high and the opportunity in front of him is huge. I don't think there's anyone managing in football like Will Still. There's certainly not a manager in the top five leagues in Europe that's going to come on a podcast like this and talk in the way that Will still did. You're going to be surprised. And I can't thank Will and his family for trusting us enough to come on and have this conversation with us. And I tell you, I don't know where Will goes from here.

3:05He's had a brilliant start to the season once again at Stade Degas. Wherever he goes next, whether it's the Premier League or somewhere else, I know he's a big West Ham fan, they are going to be lucky to have him. He may well be managing his country one day. He is that impressive and he has such an incredible story. Here he is, the youngest top flight manager in Europe on the High Performance Podcast, Will Still.

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5:00Welcome to High Performance. Thank you, thanks for having me. What is High Performance? Do you know how long and hard I've thought about this question? to me it's winning because you can't have high performance if you don't win or if you're not leaning or tending towards something and to me or the job that we're in you know today if you don't win then you're out of a job basically so with that comes you know an environment that you try and create and in that environment you allow or I try to allow each person to be themselves and to enjoy whatever they're doing but to always have you know in the back of their mind we're here to win and we're here to win a lot and we're here to win on a regular basis and we're here to win on the long term which is the most difficult thing to do but yeah today the world of football is summed up by winning games or winning the most games over the longest period so yeah to me my performance is all about winning and the reason we're talking today is because winning is something that you've proven you're very good at over the last few seasons.

6:06Before we talk about the specifics of your journey, your story, what you do and how you do it, let's just kind of break this down and have a really honest and quite vulnerable chat about what it's actually been like for you over the last couple of years to go from Will Still, unknown football coach, to Will Still all over every newspaper, every news channel. Your name is on the lips of all football fans, Premier League clubs talking about you. How's that been? totally weird totally weird and it's been even sort of more weird for me this last week because I went up to Manchester to see family last week and I've been in London for two or three days now and people recognise you people like stop you on the street and say oh we're still right we're still how you doing it's like how the hell do you recognise me you know that in France people are going to recognise you because you're working in that league and you know you're all over the press there and in Belgium when I've come from Belgium, so people know you from that.

7:08But England to me was like abroad. You know, people don't know me abroad. You just sort of get used to it. Do you enjoy it? I don't think it's a question of enjoying it or not enjoying it. You just sort of, you know, you accept it because I was that person two years ago, three years ago. You know, if I'd seen you guys, I was like, oh, that's them, you know, I want to fight with them. Can I think I'd go up and talk to them? Do you think I'd go? Yeah, I was that person. so weird and incredibly fast forward because it's like everything has happened over the course of the last sort of yeah two years in mega mega fast forward and everything's happened so quickly why do you think it's happened so quickly what do you put it down to uh the social life we live in today uh with social media with newspapers with all the media attention around it and being I think half English didn't help or did help because we know that you know in England everything gets blown up times times 10 times 20 I never really think about it I know that's easy to say I never really sort of get you know my head lost somewhere in all the media attention and my social media is going nuts and you know you're having to ask people to deal it or with it for you because it gets too much and it's like yeah okay that's cool that's great you know I'll do an interview I'll do this I'll do that but what I really want to do is win a game of football and I get really really annoyed when we don't win so yeah you get used to it and I've you just try and sort of set it to one side and not forget about it because you know it's always there but try and stay well and try and win games of football and that's that's proven to be enough I think in the last few months.

8:52So what's the biggest difference of Will today than two years ago then? A lot more responsible and a lot more confident in myself because two years ago I had loads of ideas and I had loads of, I could talk about football for years and years and years and I could analyse games and watch things and see things but I'd always need someone's confirmation of what do you think? and you know I'd get sort of not annoyed if they hadn't seen the same thing as me but I'd doubt myself and you'd sort of think oh no maybe that was wrong maybe you know I was talking rubbish and that was something else and then you know when you sort of shoved into the limelight and it's like right Will you've got five games before the World Cup just go and do it let's do it let's have a go and so when you know you're in it and you've got to do it and it's got to work then you find whatever way to make it work, try and ignore all the pressure from the outside and just try and win a game of football.

9:54And I'm not going to say it's easy, but I can put myself into that sort of frame of mind of, right, let's do it. And the fact of then winning it gives me confidence in myself, doing all the media work, because you've had them all. Every single news channel in the world has wanted a piece of it, has wanted to tell the story, from England or the media from France I had you know people from United States and so it's like well maybe I'm not that bad maybe I'm doing something that's half decent but I also know that you've got to keep doing it and that's why you know that's part of high performance it's good to do it for a period of time but you've got to do it over a very long period of time to be very good and that's what I'm trying my very best to do but it's uh it's difficult I think the reason why people have gotten onto this story is obviously this football manager on a computer game narrative and then it emerges into real life football management.

10:55I think we can all understand that, right? But is there an element of frustration from you that that seems to be the sort of dominant conversation? Do you attach as much importance to that period of your life playing a computer game that the media seem to have done? I don't get annoyed at it. it makes me you know I'll laugh about it and I'll chuckle about whoever wants to believe in that story and I was just like any other kid and people seem to sort of make me a half god playing football manager and making it to a real football manager but it's like saying oh well you know I played Call of Duty so tell you what I'm going to go to war and do that it's like not quite the same you know or I tell you what I'm really good at Formula 1 on the Playstation well I'm going to drive Formula 1 you know there's like a Which, by the way, Lewis Hamilton loves driving games and played them all his life.

11:45And he raced the remote control car as a kid. But the story never became that, whereas that has happened with you, hasn't it? I know. And I don't mind it, you know, if people want to attach that to me. I'm aware, and I think people around me are aware, of how much work and how many years of watching football, talking about football, coaching, going to university, going to various different things to make it as a football manager. wasn't just a fast forward from tapping my space bar and football manager to making it onto the bench in Ligue 1. But it's a story that sells. People enjoy that story.

12:22People like to talk about that story. But again, anything that had to do with football, whether it was FIFA, whether it was football manager, whether it was fantasy leagues, whatever, I wanted to try it because it was football. And my mates were all doing it, so why wouldn't I do it? So if you'll permit us then, Will, I'd like to use a formula that we got it off Sia Khaleesi, the South African rugby captain, that said that to him high performance was preparation leading to opportunity and then executing. And I want to talk about the preparation part of it because that's the bit that really intrigued me when I was preparing for the opportunity to meet you today, the hard yards you put in.

13:05tell us a little bit about the story beyond the computer games and the actual learning your craft i know this sounds like fairy tale like but ever since i was sort of five or six and i saw my brother ed you know playing football in the garden and playing football with his mates at a club it was like i want to try that i want to play football so you know set out played with him with footballers that were two years above me and and much bigger than me and whatever and this is in Belgium where you grew up. This is back in Belgium where we grew up and we were always different because we were the English family living in Belgium you know obviously got bright ginger hair which doesn't help.

13:42Wasn't the best at school, didn't really interest me that much, didn't really just didn't captivate me at all and I never struggled I was never like useless at it but it just bored me to death. Yeah. I was like I don't really want to go to school and my parents like no you gotta go to school you gotta get a job you gotta do this you gotta do that whatever and by the time I was sort of 17 18 I was finishing normal school in Belgium playing at a decent level uh in Belgium football and finishing school it was like right what's next what am I doing where am I going I went into university studies doing a physio hated it useless title waste time should never have done it um and went all the ways from September to January, did the January exams and got an average of I think 1.7 out of 20 on the January exams and I was like right that's pretty useless and I was like okay I'm going to stop this, this is not what I want to do with my life, this is not where I want to go and what was the conversation with your parents like?

14:48Difficult, really difficult and so I turned around and it was like no come on Will what are we really going to do what are you really going to do with your life and the conversation with my dad my parents had split up by then I had a conversation with my dad and it was like alright dad, what am I going to do? where am I going to go? and he was like well what do you want to do? I was like well what I really want to do is play football but I'm not quite sure I can make a living out of playing football because I was decent but I wasn't that good and he was like well let's do it let's see what you can do in football and so went through a whole process of finding studies in football you know Belgium obviously don't do it because Belgium is a very sort of scholar system where you all sort of go through a sausage machine and you all turn out the same after the sausage machine and then found Myerscough College up in Preston here in England which was a foundation degree in football coaching but it also allowed me to play football for the college and train in the morning and then have lessons about pretty much everything to do with football in world in the afternoon.

15:49I visited the college in March got a place on the course and then sort of went from there. So what was the difference in terms of your interest levels and how it ignited you with that course compared to the physio one? It was football. And all I wanted to do was talk about football. All I wanted to do was either train, like myself on the pitch, or watch football, talk about football, see football. And I know that sounds pretty boring to some, but I honestly don't know what I'd do if I wasn't in football. and you know and the conversation as you said with my with my mum was difficult it was like if it will football isn't a life you can't make a life out of football it was like well yeah but I think I'd be deeply depressed if I wasn't doing something that had to do with football and so it was convincing my mum took a long time she was like well okay you know well I suppose a foundation degree isn't too bad so you know go and do that and we'll see what happens after but it was football or sport on a sort of general level but you know I tried the physio part of it and I was like no no it's football, it's got to be football and Myasco helped me sort of discover what else there was to just playing football and you know reading about football in magazines and newspapers and really understand that there was actually a whole job opportunity behind it of there are so many things to do in football you can be a kit man, you can be a physical prep, you can be a video analyst, you can be a coach, you can be a sports scientist, you can be whatever.

17:23But whatever you want to do is there for you to do, you've just got to take the opportunity and do it. And that's pretty much what I did. There was a part of the course that was video analysis. And I love watching games of football, you mean, you know, give me 10 games to watch, I'll watch them all and try and understand what's going on. And that's what I did. Finished the course, came back to Belgium, because Belgium was still, you know, home for me at that point and you sort of go on the on the unknown route of knocking on on doors and trying to convince people that you can actually do things and video analysis back in the day wasn't that big in Belgium you know it was sort of the start of maybe we might film a game and see what happens in it so it was very start and it was difficult convincing people that it was an actual job and you know you you get everyone saying oh yeah right you know nice profile good to talk to you cheers mate I'll drop you an email sometime and you know you walk away you get any kind and think oh god so at this point just for clarity you'd finished the course you'd graduated you'd gone back to Belgium from England and you were to all intents and purposes knocking on doors asking for work right yeah basically and how many no's I don't know how many professional clubs there are in Belgium I think 16 plus I think there are about 24 professional clubs in Belgium 22 so how did you learn to deal with that rejection it wasn't an option it wasn't an option if they weren't going to let me in as a video analyst or as a something I was going to make my way through something else, I was going to be a kit man I'd sort of said to myself towards the end of however many no's ok it doesn't matter, I'll pick the water bottles up I'll put the cones out on the pitch I'll wash the socks I'll do whatever, as long as I'm with footballers and working in that environment and got lucky you need a bit of luck got incredibly lucky I actually went back to the club that I'd played for as a kid who were then in second division and a door opened or half opened and I managed to put my foot in it went to a training session at STVV and went up to the coach and said right mate I'm Will I've done this and this could I be of any help to you in the next couple of weeks couple of months is it something you you know takes interests or that could that could help he was like yeah can you film a game yeah I think I can film a game can you cut video yeah can do that right well our first opposition in the league is playing tomorrow in the middle of nowhere in Belgium go film the game cut it up make a presentation do whatever you want and come back to me in a few days and this was on the Tuesday the team were playing on the Wednesday and went back up on the Friday to present you know whatever I'd seen and filmed.

20:10And it went from there. He was like, right, this is brilliant. Do the next one. Do the next one. And I was like, okay, but what about contracts? I didn't want anything, but in Belgium you have to be employed or you have to be unemployed and get money from the state. I didn't want any money. Money just didn't interest me at all at that stage. And he was like, yeah, I lost the club. I lost the club. I stayed on, I was full time, went every day into the office, went to trainings film trainings and really got that sort of job going and the club wouldn't give me a contract because there was basically no money and it wasn't an option, so I was like okay whatever, I was still living at my mum's house had got a car, you know, crappy little car but I got one and that was enough.

21:00And what was your mum saying to you though because as an adult I can imagine if that was my child they'd be like well you've got a worth here and you'd be pushing that you need to get some kind of recompense this is where i think i owe my parents a lot is that they could see i was happy and for me being happy that was enough and they could see that you know there was something that was brewing and something that was in preparation and they were patient enough to say okay you can live here you know no no rent no whatever just make sure that you're doing your best and it's it's going to lead to something and I was lucky enough that it did and what about within the club though because again I can imagine that if they're not attaching any value to it financially did they attach any real value to what you were offering them do you see what I mean that it's respected and they can see that it's worth something the club weren't at all the club weren't bothered at all I was like, I wouldn't say a ghost, but I was just non-existent.

22:07And, you know, the coach wanted me there. And as long as the coach was happy, then it was fine. Right. And again, we were winning games. So I think it's a good thing, actually. Oh, perfect. I would love my kids to go somewhere and work hard and not get paid and almost be treated like they're actually invisible. And I think that builds a resilience within you. I think it teaches you that the world can be tough. and also it actually tests your passion. You look like a complete idiot because you walk into meeting rooms with board of directors or agents of players and whatever. It's like, who are you?

22:43Just wait outside, please, mate. But it's great because it's humbling. Can I ask you, and I don't want you to worry that this sounds arrogant or conceited or anything, but I think it provides real value for people. When you did that first tape and the manager went, well, that's actually brilliant. what do you think was on that that he hadn't seen elsewhere that impressed him it's a great question I've no idea really and I've never asked him either because I never you know never had to really think about it you're thrown in at the deep end because it was like you know I didn't have time to think about it it was like well the game's tomorrow go film it go and see what you can do bring it back in the next few days oh you know I've been waiting for this all my life you know wow I've got two days to do it all and you don't have time to think and it's like taking the job on now you don't have time to think.

23:28So let me ask you a different angle then from your Myers-Cuff experience what did you learn on that college course that you felt equipped you to be able to go into that professional environment and earn your stripes? If I'm being honest in terms of football knowledge itself not like a million things going to college and talking about football was more learning about myself because if you think about it I'm half English half Belgian but I was always raised in a Belgian you know environment and now I'm going to college in the north of England in the middle of Preston because you know I'd sort of been to England to see family and I'd been to England to you know spend a bit of time but I've never lived in England and living in England is like totally different it's a different environment different culture different banter, different way of living.

24:25And I'd turn up in Preston, you know, a little posh Belgian kid with, you know, nice parents. And, you know, you turn up in Preston and they all talk funny. It's like, wow, what the hell am I doing here? Why have I done this? Why am I sat here in this class listening to, you know, these northerners talk with their weird accent about funny things and laughing about odd things? And it's like, what am I doing here? I just want to go home. it's like no come on you're not going home it's football you know something's going to come of it something's going to work out something that's what the conversation you were having with yourself yeah all the time every day and you know you sit there on your own in your room a million miles from your family and sort of thinking why am I sitting here on my own why am I doing this and then you know you train the next day and go to class and you get used to the environment and you get used to the people and you get used to the you know the rubbish banter that they've got and it just sort of made me into who I am today but it was really really difficult it sounds stupid for english people but it's like okay go to the south of france and study something in the south of france and see how different people are well we were speaking off camera before will and i was saying that instant company attributes growing up in belgium to have it one of the great assets that he believes it's developed in him is a highly tuned social antennae yeah because you're dealing with people from belgium from france from germany at a close proximity.

25:49You've got people with Congolese backgrounds. You've got the European Parliament there. So you're dealing with so many different cultures and backgrounds that you have to learn to adapt. And I'm interested in what lessons you can teach our listeners about how to successfully adapt to a culture that they might not be used to. Give it time. Don't judge a book on its appearance because that's what college taught me. the most I think it was like hang on this is how big the world is and this is how different people can be and you know nowadays I'm working with Japanese players I'm working with African players I'm working with French players I'm working with Belgian players we had Ballot on loan last year who was English and it's like all these cultures and all these people are so different how the hell are we going to get them into one room onto the same pitch doing the same thing at the same time and that's where my experience of college helped me the most I think is because I just kept putting myself in their feet and thinking okay what would I be thinking if I was sat there in that room with all those people around me and people looking at me how would I react and so it just gives me that that sort of slightly better understanding of how a player feels how a player is going to react and how a player is going to perform ultimately because you know I want him to perform and that was the sort of trigger in my career going to college and going out of my comfort zone and going to another country it just opened my eyes on so many different things and be patient you know if if you can see someone's not quite comfortable if you can see someone's struggling if you can see someone's you know trying to put on a brave face but he just wants to sit there and not say anything, then let him do that.

27:38And go and talk to him one-on-one after and say, you know, you're right, mate. Or, you sure you're all right? And he'd always put on a brave face, and a player, you know, because a player has an ego and people have their self-sort of pride. But he knows that you know. So he's already in a better place and in a better space. So he can go out on the pitch and he's got half a smile on his face. and if you then bring that sort of topic or bring that conversation into a team meeting it makes it so much easier and people are then aware and I did you know when I took over it's like right I'm big I'm ginger I talk half decent English half decent French I'm from Belgium working in France and I'm gonna get things wrong deal with it Junior Ito he's Japanese he pretends he can't speak English, but he can.

28:30He pretends he doesn't understand French, but he does. Eats rice every, you know, lunchtime for a meal. Isn't going to eat, you know, whatever we eat. Isn't going to talk whatever you're talking about. Deal with it. Marshall Munizzi from Zimbabwe talks about cricket. Runs a lot, smiles a lot. Eats weird things too. Makes a lot of noise, but he's not the most comfortable in that situation. Deal with it. okay and I just went through every player and said right we all have our own specifics we all have our own weird traits of character we all have almost that thing that makes us special don't hide it you know don't don't try and put it away don't try and be someone that I don't want you to be just be whoever you want to be just make sure you're there to win games and that sort of college experience made me into this you know the person the understanding person that I am today of right yeah if we want to get win games and there are so many different people in the room this is how we're trying to have to go and get there and ultimately it worked for a bit this year and we got a few positive results and yeah the rest is history I tell you how important then is it for you to be a vulnerable coach and manager you've got to choose your moment you've got to pick your moment I think because the players have to respect you as well you have to show that you're capable of dealing with the shit that comes your way and the rubbish that comes your way.

29:55So when you're in front of them and the group is sat there in front of you, you've got to be normal because players identify when you're trying to be someone else and trying to pretend to be what you're not. And so I said, those were my first words, I'm Will. I know you, you know me, you know what I'm like. All I want to do is win a game of football. And I want to win another game of football, I want to win another game of football. I'm going to mess things up I'm telling you now so please if you've got to mess things up mess as many things up as you can but let's do it so that we're learning from it and then we're going to win games of football so yes you've got to be vulnerable in the fact of admitting that you're going to mess things up and you're going to fail at certain things but it's alright to fail it's alright to get things wrong and giving that sort of freedom to the players of getting things wrong on the pitch it's like doesn't matter mate get up, stand up, do it again so they understand that you can get things wrong but that you're there to win and if we're not learning from the mistakes that we're making then we're wasting our time so yes i'll be vulnerable and yes i'll be i'll be accepting to making mistakes and i'll be accepting to whatever you need to be in the best space possible but once we've identified that space and once we've got you into a position where you can perform it's down to you and you're paid a lot more than i am to perform up to you and if you're not going to perform then I'm going to tell you that you're not going to perform so it's finding that honesty as well of saying listen mate you know I've created this environment for you I've built the team around you to do this you know exactly what's going to happen I know exactly what's going to happen I can't control you I'm not playing FIFA up to you um so you're understanding but you're also in a sort of harsh reality of high performance we've got to perform we've got to do this and if you're not then I'm going to tell you you're not and that's you talking at 30 years old still incredibly young for what you're doing, but you've actually had six years of experience as a manager.

31:52So you did the period as an analyst, moved clubs, became an assistant, the manager lost his job. At 24, you were offered your first management job in the Belgian second division. What were you like that day? The day that you were told you're not going to manage this team. How different was that will to the will that's just really eloquently described how he manages today? I think Will was the same because he'd been through those college years and that sort of early life in football where no one really knew me. And so I don't think Will's changed. I think the way the message gets across is maybe different or slightly better.

32:36But again, it was like overnight. We played on the Wednesday night away

32:44club decided to fire the coach straight after the game on the bus home it was like right Will that's from tomorrow your coach you know you sort of sat there and thinking hang on hang on there's another assistant there who's 52 there's one there sat next to me who's 56 who's got 52 caps for Belgium why the hell am I being what what why and the president at that time Egyptian owner said yeah whatever don't care about them you're doing it it's like no president please just try and understand me this is like weird there are better people for for this job yeah and you just say yeah Will I don't care about other people I like you you've got good ideas you do it it's like okay president I'll do it for the next game I'll prepare the game on the weekend on the Sunday and you know we'll talk about it after yeah yeah okay whatever hang up shit now what turned around to the other assistants and said right the president wants me to do it are you alright with this you know are you okay with it I've no idea what I'm doing by the way but are you okay with it yeah you know whatever let's go for it I was a baby you know I was a kid I was 24 and again you know I remember the next day we had recovery training so everyone was in the gym and I took no one out onto the pitch because normally the players that didn't play you know go out on the pitch but it was like no forget the pitch we're in here and got everyone together it was like right if I'm going to be honest we're really really really shit we were bottom of the league back then did you say that to them?

34:23yeah but it was so obvious it was like there was an elephant in the room it was like right we're shit and it's not criticism because we've all been shit we all together have been utter rubbish and I think we all know that and the players sat there and sort of thought yeah yeah we've not been very good and it was like right so you know I haven't got a magic wand I haven't got the answer right here right now what are we going to do and the captain Fred France he's called Fred stood up and said well I'll tell you what Will we can't do any worse than we've been doing so we might as well just you know try and enjoy it they'd missed promotion the year before for you know one point and they were then bottom of the league it was like we haven't turned into a bad team overnight.

35:10And how much of the squad was the same? 90%, 95%. We haven't turned into a bad squad overnight, so right, take your fingers out of our arse, let's have a go. And that's just basically what we did, but again, maybe it was giving the freedom to that captain at that point to stand up and say, right, come on, let's take your fingers out of our arse. Because before that, it was difficult. Coach was very sort of, you know, one-way, one-way. Quite dictatorial. Yeah, very. So how much thought goes into those first few words that you deliver to the players and how much are you operating on instinct at this point?

35:46At that stage when I was 24, total instinct. Nothing premeditated at all. I'd bricking it. I'd slept at the club after the game when we got back. Absolutely bricking it. Didn't sleep. I was like, you know, I'm 24. When you found bricking it, take us into those thoughts. My biggest fear was, I hope we're not going to lose 10-0. you know I remember sitting there what's the best team going to be what are the 11 names I can put out on that pitch that have a chance and I knew they were good players they were just playing rubbish it was like what if I get beat 10-0 and I'm the 24 year old that turns into a video gag and goes all over social media and mess things up and loses 10-0 I don't want to be that so I had a very long conversation from my older brother and it was like Ed you know what am I doing he was like okay yeah this is weird I was like yeah I know Ed but come on help me and it was like well go go back to basics what you know what do we do when teams are losing well they're on low block 4-4-2 do that exactly as the two of you would have been doing in all honesty on that computer game all those years before right oh yeah or watching you know match of the day West Ham whatever teams we'd been watching you know criticising the coach because that's what supporters do it's like whatever coach you're rubbish get him off take him off do this do that I had him on the phone it was like Ed what are we doing such a mad story on the phone to your older brother trying to work out how to manage a football club what does Ed do Ed's a football coach now right he works in the Belgian first division I love it still now but at the time when you phoned him was he was he in football when I left my first role as a video analyst and went to Standard Liège the club STVV told me by the time they'd recognised that I was actually doing a decent job and it was actually quite useful I went into the office and said the coach is leaving to Standard Liège I'm going with him and they were like well we've given you a contract three months ago, you're not leaving I was like yeah I am, I'm going to Standard Liège because it's one of the best clubs in Belgium it's an opportunity you didn't pay me for a year, you didn't acknowledge that I existed this club is now giving me a very basic contract but at least they're giving me a contract and I'm going with the coach which gave me the opportunity.

38:06Okay, but before you leave, you've got to find a replacement. So I went back in my car, sat in my car five minutes, and was like, right, if they want to take the piss, I'm going to take the piss. Walked into the office, said, right, I've got a replacement for you. Who is it? Oh, my older brother, Ed. And they were like, no, come on. I was like, no, he's brilliant. You know, he's really good at what he does. You know, he sees the game, how I see it, and he understands how to work, all the video stuff. And it was like, Ed, right, come back to Belgium. You've got a job in football. And he started and replaced me as a video analyst at the previous club.

38:35So we were doing more or less the same thing. And it was like, okay, well, what team am I putting out? And he was like, well, you've got to choose that, mate. I haven't seen them in training. I haven't seen them, you know, what the energy is like and all of that. Went out, played a 4-2-3-1, pretty low block transition football because it was going back to basics. It was like, okay, let's go back to basics. What can they do? How can they identify things in the simplest way? And we then went on a 10-game unbeaten run, winning eight of them. and it sort of went from there again and it was like oh I can do this it's alright and yeah again the rest is history and what was the biggest challenge during that 10 game run that you hadn't anticipated that you had to deal with now as a head coach?

39:16Attention attention from the outside world and pressure from the outside world because you know in the same way now I've gone from being no one to suddenly existing in people's minds I was a 24 year old who should never have been a head coach I had only got my UEFA B licence I think at that stage who was coaching a team in second division in Belgium who was on a 10 game unbeaten run no one does that and it was like who are you and so you get camera crews coming to film you all day from your home and I was actually still living with my mum at that stage which is embarrassing follow you through the club film you during the game film you post match and make a whole documentary about who is Will Still the next, whoever he was.

40:06And people criticise you. I got absolutely hammered in the Belgian press for the way I'd behaved on the touchline or the way I'd... No, it was a pep talk pre-game. So they'd filmed the pep talk pre-game. And I'm just honest. My language is, or came across as awkward back in the day because, again, Belgium is very sort of boxed off and structured and you can't talk too loudly and you can't make too much noise. It was football changing room language. You know, the F word comes out and whatever. And got absolutely excited. What did they say? Oh, Will's still, he's 24. He has no idea of the words that he's using.

40:46He doesn't identify the people around him. Shouldn't be coached, fire him. Should go back to school and learn how to... Were you being described as English as well? I was being described as half English half they painted the portrait right just absolutely hammered me and how did that feel? horrible because my mum I was watching it with my mum on the Monday night in Belgium they have the games at the weekend and on the Monday night people go on telly and talk about the games at the weekend and all of a sudden my face pops up and the thing and the documentary is sort of shown the bit at half time is shown and yeah even I was sat there looking at it and thinking wow well that's not me and that's not quite what I said and it was all taken out of context obviously because when you take it out of context then it looks bad you know these these 40 50 year old men five of them sat around the table with half of Belgium watching saying how bad I was and how rude and how not educated and how I should go back to school and back to learning the language the right way and it was like my mum was sat next to me and you sort of sit there and think and what was her reaction?

41:58Speechless. Didn't say anything. I didn't know what to say. I was sat there on the settee next to her. There's a recurring theme here. Right from the start of your career when you didn't have a contract and you were being ignored at your first club, there's a recurring theme of being undervalued and misunderstood actually, isn't there? Potentially, yeah. But again, never really thought about it and it didn't, it hurt a lot that evening. I remember, you know, sort of having a weird 20 minutes where no one really spoke and you know I think my first question was you alright mum? and she was like yeah what are you going to do?

42:35I ain't got a clue mum most people's answer would be well I'm going to change the way I act to please other people but we were winning you know we'd won the game but did it leave an element of self doubt and am I doing the right thing do I need to do it differently? massive yeah massive am I allowed to use that language? the players haven't said anything to me so yeah I think it's alright, but maybe I should talk about it, or maybe I shouldn't talk about it, or maybe, you know, I shouldn't talk to the press anymore. Maybe that's the answer. If I don't talk to the press, then they can't annoy me.

43:07But you have to talk to the press because you have contractual obligations. Right, I can't do that. And then it was like, okay, I'll try and deal with it, or I'll try and stick it to the back of my mind. Went in the next day, I was like, okay, people, you've seen it? Yeah, yeah, we've seen it. anything else nope okay put that to bed and let's keep going i mean i love this because this is such a human conversation because we all look at you know you are managing a club in one of the top five leagues in europe going up against some of the biggest clubs in the world as a manager and i think the outside world sees people like that as different not as like everybody else but you're having exactly the same thoughts doubts fears worries conversations with your mum that everyone listening to this podcast or watching this podcast would have oh yeah 100 someone at Lourdes said to me yesterday, oh Will you know you're half God, you're unbelievable at what you do, it's like no I'm not mate, I'm just Will and I know I'm not and I know that if I lose the first five games of the season I'm going to be sacked that's just the reality of football right now For so long many of you have been asking for more from the High Performance Podcast and now you can get it.

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46:26So let's do the next sort of leg on this fascinating story. So you're managing at this point because then actually you went back to being an assistant who got a management job again with a sacked manager and then became an assistant and I think this is really interesting because this was a period in your career where you actually had the courage to go I'm walking away again at a young age which I think is really brave would you mind sharing that story with us yeah so the club that I was at when I was 24 went bust at the end of that season which was also really difficult because managing people that aren't paid for three months is something tough.

47:01And you know, they walk up to you and say, well I'm not training. Alright mate, why not? Well I'm being paid. Why would I play if I'm not paid? I wasn't getting paid at all. And no one at the club had been paid basically the last sort of five months that we were at the club no one was paid. But we still got games to play. We were top of the league five games towards the end and there was a proper possibility of us getting somewhere. And you were bottom when you took over. Yeah, yeah. we were bottom of the league. But second division works in a weird way. It's like periods. So you win the first part of the league and then you win the second part of the league and then those two winners play against each other in a final.

47:40But it was like, okay, I know money is important and I know, you know, you all want a job. But the actual fact is we don't have a choice because you can't walk away from the club and go and sign somewhere else right now because the club hasn't been, you know, declared as bankrupt. We haven't got a choice. so either we come in here and say I'll tell you what, let's have a go and let's just play for the pure simple fact of enjoying football and playing football or not play and that's your choice and I totally respect it not one single player stopped we had a protest day because the media had come to training so we didn't train that day and the players had come to me and said right, well, media are here, we're not training not a problem, fine, totally get it So you created real unity then between you and the players Oh, massively, it was easy though well easy it was made easy because of the environment and you know conditions around it but I'm pretty sure I would have asked any one of those players to run at that brick wall and smash their head through it they would have done it because you know that's what the team needed anyway club went bust moved on back as an assistant spent three years at Bierskot it was again back in second division we got promoted in the second season first year back in first division the coach Hernan Lozada he went to the MLS got an offer from the MLS and left and I was supposed to go with him it was you know he turned around and said Will right you're coming with me mate I was buzzing MLS better money big money different environment different culture yeah let's go cool and the club turned around and said Will where are you going I thought I'm packing it off I'm off yeah no you're not you're our head coach right okay and I'm 28 at that stage and again it's sort of like we've got a game in three days by the time the old coach had left we were on a run of I think we'd got zero out of 21 or 24 points so on a terrible run of form right in the middle of COVID loads of players got COVID I'd had COVID too and it was right we'll sort it out finish in a decent place in the league and then we'll we'll see where we are at the end of the season end of January so we've got about 12, 13 games left and I've all of a sudden become the youngest head coach in Belgian history or something odd like that and the media got hold of it and it was like oh Will Steele's back, oh right Will Steele from Ligse he was like, oh he's back one of your games finished 9th in the league which was slap bang in the middle of it did alright and at the end of the season the club came back to me and said oh well you know, second season syndrome back in first division is always the toughest uh so we're going to bring in a coach who's got you know bags of experience i think he was 61 at that point knows the belgian league off by heart so he's our new head coach you know and i was not disappointed but frustrated that i couldn't keep the train rolling yeah and didn't get the opportunity to prove that i could have done it feel a bit undervalued a bit yeah but i was like okay cool maybe and that's probably the biggest thing that I've changed today is when you ask me you know what what's the difference is like I'm a bit more self-confident not a lot so I don't like talking about myself and I can't sell myself at all when people sort of think I'm a bit of a weirdo start yeah okay cheers for that will and we'll go to someone else and they'll pick someone else who talks well and who's yeah who looks good so this new coach came in and so I asked them well you know what role do you want me to have what where am I going with this and said oh you know we want you to be assistant because you're a great assistant not sure I want to do that because it's weird when you've been a coach of you know a certain group of players to then turn back into a an assistant with another coach it's like he's got his ideas but these players know that my ideas are these yep and I don't know just didn't feel it and it was like tell you what I'm not doing it for the first time in my life I'm going to walk away from football and say for the good of that team and those players it's not the right thing for me to still be in that club at that point what no Will you can't leave you can't do this you can't do that it's like no no honestly believe me you do not want me at that football club anymore I'm not I wouldn't be in the right place well yeah well you still got a contract with us it's like okay fine I'll pay whatever you want me to pay I'll pay it off honestly the best thing for everyone is for me not to be there was there not fear there though because once you're out the game, you're out the game and this is a job offer.

52:21Oh yes, I had shit. You know, I didn't want to be six months out of a job. I didn't want to watch, you know, other people talk about football and do football and give training sessions. How did you quieten that fearful voice? Didn't. It was like just one of those random decisions, one of those many random decisions that I've made in my life of, do it. It feels right now. it should be okay just try it so is gut instinct a big thing for you massively all I do is instinct I think you know I sort of have a think about it and think does this feel okay is this am I okay with this okay do it or don't do it well what changed in your relationship with the industry that you're the kid that came in and worked for a year for nothing in the shadows and now you're the young man choosing to walk away and pay back a contract what was it that had changed in your perception of the industry?

53:20Not a lot because it was as if I was being kicked out again. You know in that first year it was like well he's annoying he's come to watch trainings and he's there but we're not paying him so he's alright we can ignore him. And here it was well he's done alright but you know we want a good coach in and we want a coach that's going to be able to manage the team on the long term or whatever. the club actually went down the year after and so it was just that feeling of people don't really want you there go away it was that feeling that you have but there's something that you said that you love football so you'd have done anything to be involved in football but now you're walking away from football and I'm interested have you learnt to love yourself yeah my perception of football wasn't the reality that I was getting back right you know I was like this professional world of football is a tough place and people are going to bite and people are going to attack you and people are going to try and stick a proper knife in your back if you're not careful so be aware of that but don't lose the love that you have for football don't forget what it is you love and you know for me the love of football is watching it with my brothers watching you guys on telly watching match of the day on a Saturday night going out on a freshly cut grass with new balls your new boots on and thinking this is the life.

54:46I'd pay to stand on a perfect football pitch, freshly mown grass with a ball 15, 18 players or more and a set of cones. I'd pay to do that. Because you feel so good and you've got that new kit on and pre-season is going to start in a few days and it's like, oh yeah. Best feeling in the world. I'd pay to do that. And whatever I was getting back was not that's not football for me. and I just decided to like okay that's your reality I accept it that's fine my reality isn't that and so I walked away and thought you know what next maybe I need a few days off so I thought about a holiday and literally two days later Stade de Reims where I am now my phone rings and I'm like French number it's a bit odd don't pick up it leaves me a message saying oh hello Will this is Mathieu Lacour from Stade de Reims, general director.

55:44If you've got five minutes, give me a ring back. And I was like, what? Yeah, I showed it to one of my friends. He's like, do you think this is real or do you think this is a piss take or something? So I'm like, no, no, Will, you know, ring him up. So I ring him up and have a conversation of, and they say, oh, right, Will, you know, we've been following you since your days in Lichs when you were 24. We've come to watch a few sessions of yours this year without you knowing. Love your energy, love your, you know, your style. we're looking for an assistant coach next year in in France fancy it yeah I'm on it yeah get me there so I went down two days later visited the club visited you know the all the infrastructure which was you know different level to what I'd been at and went on as assistant manager to Oscar Garcia at that point and had that those first few weeks or the first 10 days when you go into France and you're in a different environment, different culture, thinking maybe this wasn't the best idea, coming to France and doing this.

56:44But then you sort of force yourself to think, no, come on, it's Ligue 1, it's top five leagues in the world, good players, decent money. Come on, push through it. Back in Preston again. Back in Preston, same feeling. And you're sat in a flat hole in your own and all your mates are a thousand kilometres north. It's like, no, come on, do it, do it, do it, do it. only thing is I'm on my UEFA A licence at that point or finishing it in Belgium so it's going back and forth to Belgium twice a week which is difficult and then I sort of thought to myself right, either I've just got to push through and do my best to get these courses and the weird thing is is that about a week later Vincent Kompany brings me up and to me, you know, Vincent Kompany is like a big thing and he said, oh well, you know come be my assistant at Anderlecht because Craig Balamy just left yeah great but how am I going to get out of Stade de Reims you know because they I enjoyed I really enjoyed the time that I had there but it was difficult with the with the UEFA courses and it was like you know perfect match I can be back in Belgium finish my coaching badges off work for one of the biggest clubs in Belgium and work for Vinnie Company you know it doesn't get much better than that so told Reims about it they weren't best pleased but they agreed in the end found an agreement with Anderlecht and then had a very honest conversation with Vinny of Vinny what do you want me to be doing?

58:19What is Will still going to bring to Vincent company? Are you doing this after you've had these difficult conversations with the club and you got the agreement? Yeah Drive up to Anderlecht go around the training complex almost sign a piece of paper and then you know see Vinny it's like Vinnie what am I doing and I just couldn't see myself working in that structure in that environment because it was Vincent Company's environment and I have the utmost respect for you know Vinnie Company's regime and his his structure and his work but I couldn't see myself working in it and so I turn around and sort of think I don't want to work with Vinnie Company and not it's not that I don't want to work for Vincent Company because I love Vincent Company it's I'm not going to bring what he's expecting me to bring in that environment.

59:07I'm going to be totally useless at doing what he's asking me to do. But how am I going to tell him that? Pluck up the balls, ring him up. Vinny, I think I made a bad choice. Oh, right. Okay, Will. Well, that's fine. Thanks for your honesty. I'm sure we'll, you know, talk again, speak again, whatever. All the best. That's it? Yeah. Oh, shit, that was easy. He said, Will, this is the plan. this is what I want you to do what I expect you to do and if you're telling me that you don't feel up for that then thanks for telling me great right cheers Vinnie yeah no problem Will see you later so what's your conversation about like in France now because that's a more difficult one as I'm driving home Standard Liège ring me up and say Will we just fired a coach we want someone new and we don't want you to go to Anderlecht I'd worked for Standard Liège in the past it's like hang on, hang on, hang on, what?

1:00:03Yeah, yeah, we've just sat the coach, we want you to come in here and, you know, be coach. I was at Anderlec three minutes ago, yeah, yeah, we know, but we don't want you to go there, so we're offering you a job here in Liege. Okay, I'll drive down now. So I drove down the same day to Liege, I had a conversation with the board, Will, this is what you can do, this is what we want you to do, and there I felt, ah, this is the role that I want to have, this is what I want to be doing, I'm working with a decent coach, so that was the right environment, right energy for me at that point in my career.

1:00:37So I signed again for Standard Liège, finished the season off there with them and at the end of last season, the head coach, Oscar Garcia, back in Reims, rang me back, said, right Will, you finished your licences, you finished all your rubbish off. Yeah, I'm all good. Right, well you're coming back. Okay. The club agree? Don't know, don't care, I'll convince them. Okay, right. next day Mathieu Lacour rings me back said right Will coach wants you back we're not best pleased with it but I was going to say was there any bitterness there yeah a lot huge amount yeah yeah and I had my contract that I had the first time was better than the one that I had at the start of this season oh no so it was like why didn't you just stay at Liège didn't feel right the club had been bought by American owners so again that feel is yeah it just wasn't right it was like nah not the right environment but you're going from head coach there to assistant of Stade D 'Arrain yeah yeah like have you reached a point now where you're a manager and you never go and be an assistant anywhere again now probably yes yeah but at this point your ego was still not so big that you were happy to step down no and I don't think it's yeah I'm not quite sure it's ego driven I think it's just I have my ideas and I think that this is the best way to play the game or this could be the right environment for me and then if I'm going to work for someone then I want it to be you know something that I've never seen before and the very best that I can learn from like Vincent Company or whatever and so it's like at that point no great you know I enjoyed Reims I liked the league I liked the club I felt good there I'm not going to have to be going back and forth the whole time to do my licenses so yeah let's give it a shot so sign back for the club start pre-season we're doing okay we didn't have the best start to the season but the I think the most challenging thing was Oscar Garcia was going through I don't even know how to explain it his daughter was basically dying with brain cancer and so he's never there or very rarely there and if he's there there's a whole sort of energy around him that is really really difficult which is fully understandable totally understandable and you know it was never a conversation it was like if he's not here then it's normal we're not winning games I think we were 18th in the league and last season there were four teams that went down in the league so it was difficult and the club turned around halfway through October or start of October and say Oscar we totally understand the situation but we have a club to run we have a club to make live which was badly, very badly perceived by the French press somewhere understandably but you know wherever you're at in your life right now isn't helping us and we can't, we've got to go different ways so they sack Oscar and I actually had a clause in my contract with with Hans that said if they fire Oscar they can fire me because Oscar was the one that brought me back to the club and I was quite happy, I was like okay great they ring me up and say right Will we fired Oscar and I was expecting them to say right you know you've got to go too and you were okay with that?

1:04:02I knew it because Oscar was the person that brought me back to the club and I was like well okay I get it we're not doing very well in the league and okay what am I doing next? yeah you're not leaving you're taking over well what intrigues me on this is that you've just described that you've that you've had that sense of bitterness that you'd left them to go back to Belgium. They've accepted you back in reluctantly because the coach is doing that. I'm interested in the relationship and what's happened or evolved in that time that they're now trusting you. I think from the start, they really liked me as a coach and as a person.

1:04:42And they were running a business. They're running their business. They're running a football club. And so they sort of set that emotional, human aspect of me going back to Belgium, totally aside and forgot about it and it was like then I shut up this is a business you can't do that and when I went back it I was just normal I was like you know I know you're annoyed and I know I had the conversation with them to sort of break the ice a bit it was like I know you're pissed off I know you know what I'd done was a bit against sort of moral ethics and whatever but that's what I needed to do uh and I said to them well hang on because what if I want to be loyal towards Oscar and the second clause in my contract was I had to pay a huge amount to get out of my contract because basically they wanted to avoid another club coming to pick me up I was like well I can't pay that I ain't got that money you know well no we know that that's why we know you're not going to go so that's why we want to make your head coach so I haven't really got a choice well you know one of those he's a bank loan and it was like right okay felt terrible really really seriously bad towards Oscar and still do he's never spoken to me again really yeah no have you tried to reach out a few times yeah and his daughter died you know a few months later yeah and does he see what you did as a betrayal yeah I think so which I get I totally understand because I think I probably would have thought the same sure but I you know literally didn't have a choice it was like well either you're paying more than 600 ,000 pounds to get yourself out of the club but the club aren't sacking me so I can't leave and I can't try and be loyal to you but again he was in a in a space and whatever which was difficult so and I had to win a game of football at the weekend and it was like well you're only playing PSG so you know whatever and yeah never really looked back never really thought about it twice Was that the 0-0 draw for PSG?

1:06:39Yeah at home How good did that feel stopping them from scoring? It lasted about 20 minutes I've got all these cameras around me on the pitch and you know you're going around the stadium thanking the supporters because we always do that and it's like right okay we've got a 0-0 draw yeah we're playing a way to Lorient next week now what and it literally lasts like that much moments yeah and everyone after the game is like ah you know whatever this is brilliant this is this this is that congratulations huge yeah thanks right leave me alone now I've got to do something else and it always lasts yeah nothing literally nothing and you go on to the next game and at the start the club had said right well you've got I think it was five games till the World Cup so take charge for the five games and then we'll see where we're at we'll see where we're going we go unbeaten in the five games I think it's two or three games we win anyway we're unbeaten in the five games comes the World Cup the players are all saying no no Will you're staying, you're staying, you know, we want to keep going with you.

1:07:45Okay, well, I'm not going to decide, so, you know, we'll see. The board turned around and said, right, well, you know, good job, well done. You've turned the energy around, you've turned the team around. Keep going to the end of the season. And then the club turned around and said, well, renegotiate your contract, Will. It's like, okay, just know that we're paying 25k a game for you to be on the touchline because you haven't got your pro licence yet. So if we play four games in a month, yeah, that's a lot of money. Yeah. It's basically a million pounds a year for you to manage at the football club.

1:08:15Something like that, yeah. That you're not getting, yeah. I didn't want it though, to be honest. Yeah. I really didn't want it. But it's money that can't go elsewhere, isn't it? That's the point they're making. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, yeah, you know, wow, thanks. Great opportunity, thank you. And I think my salary leaked out into the press halfway through February or something. And every manager's salary was in the press halfway through February in Likib. and people would take the piss because I was earning nothing, basically. We've spoken about your relationship with the cameras and the scrutiny and that horrible experience when you were 24.

1:08:50What have you learned at this stage then, now that you're the head coach and things like this have been leaked out that then present that you're some guy that got lucky and that's why they're not paying you anything. How are you managing that? what lessons have you learned ignore it not bothered it affects me in a without it actually affecting me and what I've tried to turn around is well hang on let them try and understand who Will is open the door there was actually a thing that went out on social media where I'm talking French and English talking to the squad and you know people absolutely love that but I know that the same video fragment I would have got slated for it eight years ago when I was doing it back at the other club yeah so perception has changed and people see me in a different way and it's like right well this is me I'm not perfect I'm big I'm ginger you know I talk funny in both languages but this is who I am so if you want to have a go at me you're not going to knock me down that far and I know you know I lose five games and people say people start saying I shit I am yeah that's football I know I'm not shit and I know I'm not very good I'm just where I am at the moment that's fine and I'm expecting it it's going to happen someday we're about to do our quick fire questions but before we do in the spirit of honesty and you know so I think many managers would kind of sidestep this and just give the old I'm happy where I am one day at a time one game at a time how ambitious are you oh massively massively because I've grown up again in that environment of watching the Premier League and I've, you know, we used to win the World Cup on FIFA with my brother.

1:10:39It's like, I tell you what, I want to win the World Cup. But I know that I'm nowhere near the Premier League and I'm nowhere near the World Cup right now. But that's okay in a way because I'm 30 and I've got a bit of time and a bit of, you know, I've got a few things to do before I get there. And it, you know, it makes me laugh when people ask me, oh Will, you've got to come to England. Would you come to England? What do you think about England? It was like, well, yeah, obviously, you know, I'm just at your bell end everyone loves England everyone everyone wants to work in England and I'm and I'm no different and you know just being here for a few days it does feel like almost like home now because I can sort of find my you know my roots and this is my parents grew up here and somewhere down the line I am I do feel English so do you plan?

1:11:24not at all because if someone asked me to plan what I've just done in the last 10 years I would have told them to do one who would have said that I was going to be a coach at 24 who was going to say I was going to be a coach at 28 and then managing in Ligue 1 at 30 it shouldn't happen, doesn't happen and I've no idea whatever's going to happen in the future and it doesn't worry me that much if it happens then great, if it doesn't happen then I'm sure there'll be something else and I'm sure I'll find something else I'll feel alright somewhere else again it won't stop me being ambitious and it won't stop me creating that high performance environment to win games of football because every person in the world says they hate losing games but I actually feel proper, proper shit when I've lost the game and I hate it, I hate that feeling of walking out and having to talk to the press and seeing the players spend three minutes being sad and then get on the phone and having to go through that whole week of knowing you've lost the game and people are judging you because you lost the game and it's like, ah, I hate that feeling.

1:12:31I hate it. So I don't want to go through that ever or as less as possible. I bet. Right, we've reached the point for our quickfire questions. So the first one is the three non-negotiable behaviours that you and the people around you need to buy into. Enjoy it, number one. What better feeling is there than, like I said, walking out on a football pitch with the grass is perfect, your kit is perfect, you know, you've got 20 ,000 people scanning, screaming your name. How could you not enjoy that? Enjoy the game of football. That's number one. Number two, commitment. Okay, if you're going to be part of our squad and you're going to be part of our team, you've got to go full for that team.

1:13:16And I'll allow your ego to be as big as it needs to be and I'll allow your personality to be as important as it has to be. And I think the best example of that is Balogun that we had this year. It was like, Ballot, I know how you feel coming to France. I know how you feel in this environment. Just be Ballot. That's fine. Okay, well, I'll do that. So commitment to the team. And Ballot then understood that, yes, he wanted to score goals, but he was going to need the 23 other people beside him to be as good as that. And so it's creating that sort of, again, environment where people can be themselves, but realise that there is a common goal, and that common goal is only going to work if everyone's committed to it.

1:13:57So commitment is number two. And number three, I know, again, very sort of fairytale, like I'm romantic, but honestly, if you think something's shit and if you think I'm chatting shit, tell me it's crap. Be straightforward. If you think I've made a mistake, come and tell me because I'm going to tell you if you've made a mistake. And a lot of people say, yeah, it's dangerous, you know, being so close to your players and having that relationship with your players. But that's just who I am. And if they're going to accept that I'm telling them that it's bad. I need to be able to accept that they're coming back at me with something.

1:14:32And we find a level playing field where everyone can sort of agree. But also be honest sort of between ourselves but towards yourself. Because a footballer's automatic reaction is when you say something's bad, you'll say, yeah, but this, and he was poor, and he was this, and he was that, and he was doing this, and, well, the grass was a bit wet, and this was, yeah, shut up about the excuses. Let's have a look at the video. were you being bad? well yeah I wasn't great now we're getting somewhere where we can have a conversation where we can make a bit of progress and have that difficult conversation which in the end as we said isn't actually that difficult it seems like a mountain to climb but it isn't actually that hard once you've said the first word what's one piece of advice you give to a teenage world just starting out?

1:15:18don't believe in the people that say it's not possible do whatever it takes just keep going don't give up if that's really what you want to do and that's really the place you want to get to just do it I know it's difficult I know there are going to be 10 days 2 to 3 weeks that are tough but if you've got one thing that you want to do do it identifying it is also difficult because what do people really want to do in life so many people go through a job and do a job that they don't really enjoy I'd hate to do that it's like no if you've got a job enjoy it do what you really want to do and that was comes back to the conversation i had with my dad is like do whatever you want to do and do something that's gonna you know make a difference to your life and make you enjoy your life very good if you could recommend a book for our um do you read i don't read it but there's a there's an explanation to that come on then i can't read i mean i can like read abc but if i read a page of a book by the end of the page i'd have forgotten exactly what i've just read because like my brain just doesn't process it.

1:16:24So what sort of learner are you then? You're a visual learner. Right, okay. If I see a video, if I hear it, if someone talks about it to me, that's fine, I can see it. But if I've got to read something or read a book or read something, it's like, whoa, forget it. If you could go back to one moment of your life, what would it be and why? Winning the title with STVV, so the very first club I worked for at the end of that season where I had nothing. Because that was proof to myself that it was possible and I remember standing on the podium in front of all the supporters in the club that I'd played for as a kid, it was like what is this?

1:17:01I'm part of a club that I've just won the league with I think I've contributed a bit to what the team did and through all the not getting paid and not being whatever, I've won this title and I've helped these people lift the trophy and be the best team in the league and the fact of it being that club at that particular point in my life was the best feeling in the world and it comes back to winning. You win something, that feeling is just like, wow. And the last question, your one golden rule for people that have listened to this conversation, for them to live their own high performance life. Set yourself a goal and go for it and just believe that, you know, it is possible.

1:17:41That's the perfect way to end and thank you very much for sharing your thoughts on all that with us. Honestly, it's been really interesting. Thanks for having me.

1:17:56Damien. Jake. You know what? And I want this to come across as in the, I want you to take this in the spirit in which it's intended. That was like having a chat with a mate who really likes football, but has never worked in football a day in his life. And I don't want that to, do you know what I mean? Like you could take that as offensive and go, but actually it's the total opposite of offensive. It's almost the greatest compliment you can pay to someone who works in the game, but has not been jaded, twisted, altered, impacted by working in the game. Yeah, it's a really interesting point. Halfway through, I was reminded of a famous quote I'd read about Bobby Robson, where people used to talk about, even in his last job at Newcastle, it was his sheer joy and passion of being out on a football field with a ball, and with footballers to play with.

1:18:47and people always used to talk about it was almost like boyish in his enthusiasm that he'd never lost it and listening to will learn talking about how i i'd pay to do this job yeah it's such a pleasure i think it's lovely to hear somebody with that undiluted and let's say unblemished passion for something and i hate how football and football by the way is not alone in this um how football discriminates against outliers all sport does the whole world does every industry does and yet this is a guy who by his own admission is an outlier he's come at it from a totally different angle to everybody else that's why everyone's obsessed with this rather dull conversation around you know playing football manager on the computer but he's come at it as an outlier and he shows that you can do that and I think football all sports our entire environment needs to wake up to this cognitive diversity this difference of thought this alternative opinion like he brings so much more value to the game of football than just managing the club he's managing.

1:19:48He makes people look at the game in a different way. Yeah, it was a real privilege just to speak to somebody that, like you say, has done the work in the shadows. That's what we often talk about here. We respect those that have gone and learned the craft from the bottom up. He's definitely done that and I don't think we've even seen a fraction of what his potential could be. I'm excited for him and I hope he stays exactly the same. Yeah, me too. I think he will. Yeah. Thanks, mate. Thank you, mate.

1:20:45performance, don't subscribe to High Performance. And if you could do that for me, it would be a game changer for us. Listen, thank you so much for tuning in, for joining us today. Don't forget, you can download the High Performance app for free. Just head to the App Store and use the code HPAPP. Remember, there is no secret. It is all there for you. So chase world-class basics. Don't get high on your own supply. Remain humble, curious and empathetic, all of which I believe Will Still has done. And we'll see you very soon.

1:21:38We'll be right back.

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