How the Smallest Team in F1 is competing with the Big Guys: Team Principle on Haas’ Comeback (E387)

0:01I always say to people, the failure doesn't define us. What defines us is how we get up from that as a team together. If I'm totally honest, I was ready to quit in back 23. I was very close to just walk. Very first instance, I didn't know it was Roman. And then the minute I realized it was Roman, obviously I'm thinking he cannot be alive. He's my friend. You're listening to High Performance. Thanks to everyone who's already subscribed. If you've not, right now is the time because you'll get new episodes the moment they drop and your support helps us bring more world-class guests onto the show.

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0:49Ayo, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. So last season, you got your second best ever points finish with the Haas Formula One team. Rewind to the very first race of the season. and I bet you would never have imagined that you would finish so strongly. Yeah, absolutely. That first race in Melbourne, as soon as the car started running in FP1, then as soon as I realized how big the issue was, that was really sickening. At that point, we are facing the season of potentially scoring zero point, because we are not just slowest. We are the slowest by like six tenths. We had a huge problem.

1:25So when did you first realize that the car wasn't what you thought? Lap two of FP1. Yeah. Oh, what are you thinking at that point? Yeah, I know. So again, so FP1, you start running very fast lap. Okay, I looked at those high speed corners. Okay, we are very slow, but it's lap one. It's okay. Maybe your driver's just doing a sighting lap. Then you cool down the tires and then you go again. Second lap, it should be not your quickest lap, obviously, but it should be not a huge amount off. Miles and miles off. It's like you are going through a wet patch. then I realized, okay, we've got some serious problem.

2:01Then by the end of FP1, it was totally clear we've got some serious issue. Then the focus is, okay, between FP1 and FP2, what can we do to mitigate this issue to see if that's something we can solve with the reasonably big change on the car setup? Then by the end of FP2, I had to know that's something we can deal with the setup or not. Then by the end of FP2, so by the end of Friday, it was totally clear that is a serious fundamental flaw. So you tried everything on the Friday and nothing would make the car quicker, really? Yeah, I wouldn't say everything because you only got like an hour to do it or two hours to do it if you include FP1.

2:36But we made a big change on the car so that we look at those two extremes. If it doesn't make enough difference, there is nothing we can do unless we change the car fundamentally. Wow. So how do you get to the first race of the season with a car that is way slower than you think? Because again, the circuit characteristics, we've been testing in Bahrain, right? been focusing on the race distance. We did some qualifying simulation, but Bahrain's a circuit where it really doesn't have challenging high-speed corners and doesn't have that dips or bumps, right? So it didn't have that dynamics that excites that weakness in the car.

3:11So it's a total surprise to us when we turned up in Melbourne. Honestly, we left Bahrain thinking, okay, we've got a decent race car. We should be okay. Then going to Melbourne, that high-speed chicane, oh my God, what a disaster that was. I've honestly that was shock huge shock so what was the problem problem is basically the car completely gives up at that dynamics high speed change of direction that driver have no essentially no downforce no grip that's why you have to go so much I can't remember the speed delta anymore because it's a you know so such a long time ago it feels like years ago but race one this season And then literally, it's like you are on a completely different surface, like a wet surface.

3:55It was that much difference. Of course, we are in Melbourne, right? But first place, our technical director was there. Our performance director was there. Of course, I was there. And then we in the Melbourne time, but it kind of worked in a way that then with the time differences, we didn't sleep much. You know, really, we've been talking with Europe when we should be sleeping in Australia. But you can't sleep anywhere when you got such a huge issue. It was literally sickening. So, but then, honestly, what I was happy with the alignment we had, and then people just working together, really, there's no politics, no finger pointing saying, who decided this or nothing like this?

4:32Right, we've got this issue. This is the direction. This is what we need to do. Right, how are we going to do it? Get on with it. So we didn't waste any time. And what about your drivers? Because you have two new drivers at this point. Anoli Behrman has never driven a Haas before. Esteban Ocon has never driven a house before in a race weekend. And suddenly, I'm sure they're looking at you going, what have you given me? I can't race this car. Oh, 100%. Were they angry or were they worried? Of course, we are all worried. Because again, same as me. I never faced anything like this before. The problem was big.

5:10You are six, 10th slow, the next slowest car. And in F1, that's a lifetime. It's a lifetime. lifetime yeah so yeah but then again like esteban just said you cannot drive this car through this corner you can see other corners he can drive no problem these types of corner it's not even close you literally cannot drive and then to make the matter worse then fp1 olivierman crashed on that corner straight away right so he did minimum running on friday and then i said to ollie on Friday night, look, I need you tomorrow. You know, you really need to do laps tomorrow because so far we only got Esteban's feedback.

5:49Based on Esteban's feedback, this is undriveable. I can see that on the data, but I really need your feedback. And then what happened in FP3? He crashed again. Was he crashing because of the car? No, no, no. So that Friday might have been because it's the same corner and then we couldn't pinpoint exactly, but definitely there was clearly there's underlining issue there maybe Oli was able to deal with it better than I don't know but anyway bottom line he crashed heavily on Friday did zero laps right the FP3 the way he crashed had nothing to do with the issue of the car I can't even remember I think it's the first push lap going into one of the last corner after the high speed chicane so yeah worst nightmare absolutely worst nightmare so now I had zero feedback from Oli then of course Sunday was wet but we just got to take Esteban's feedback on what happened on Esteban's car but at least the data showed that we clearly got an issue so we are tackling it but what we didn't know was if Oli was driving would he have had the same level of issue or would he be able to drive a bit better but regardless that was a huge issue so we didn't have to argue about it So you go to Australia at the start of the 2025 season with the slowest car by a long way Yeah One driver who's crashed in two of the three practice sessions Yeah a car that you know can't be changed in time for China, a factory working overtime to get a new car ready for the Japanese Grand Prix, but you're not able to do the usual wind tunnel and CFD work to get that new car ready.

7:23Yet we now sit here, you've had your second best season ever, you've got your joint best ever finish fourth in the Mexico Grand Prix. So how do you now reflect on what you did as a team in 2025? What makes me really proud of our team is how we reacted from that situation. I always say to people, the failure doesn't define us. You know, we had a big mistake in the Qatar pit stop as well. That kind of disaster doesn't define us. What defines us is how we get up from that as a team together. And I'm so proud that from that Melbourne disaster, honestly, you couldn't have had worse race one. It is a huge issue.

8:02Nobody knows how to solve it at that moment. Nobody panics. Everybody worked together, helped each other, got on with it. And all the production guys, program management guys, the same thing. Once the engineering, technical director, performance director, Aero guys decide this is how we're going to make a modification, got on with it, made a modification, made one part available straight away for Friday running, FP1 running in Suzuka. So then once we run in Suzuka, back to back across the cars, it was clear, it's definitely the right direction. It made a positive difference. so again like we proved it as a team if we stick together help each other encouraging each other no politics no finger pointing we can solve anything right and then come through that from that point because we had to solve that specific issue that means like on the upgrade we couldn't focus on the outright performance we had to solve the bad characteristics of the car first we had to deal with that in suzuka we had to deal with that in imora so the first time you can put let's say your more traditional upgrade to the car but silverstone but then silverstone bang on friday you can see straight away cars a lot faster then we did it again austin so i that that proved in two years in a row for the team lots of people said house may start the season well but cannot develop the car update is waste of time waste of money no i always believed that's not right you know it's that's an excuse you know we should be able to do it we did it in 24 we did it last year in 25 so that gives people lots of confidence so yeah it's just a teamwork you know but i'd say if that melbourne issue in 25 happened six months earlier so let's say mid 24 we probably disintegrated you know because throughout 24 i believe we build this foundation of teamwork trust transparency the right culture we started building up this culture of a proper race team so by the time that disaster struck in Melbourne, at least we had that 12 months to build that foundation.

10:01People trust each other. We know that we're not having any blame, culture, finger pointing. We just got to work together. Only thing important is find a solution. And how you support each other when the time is tough is so important, right? You know, it's very easy to deal with everything when things are going so swimmingly. But test of character happens when things are not going very well and I'm really really proud to say that everyone there really showed their character in such a positive way and then got out of the mess.

10:39In the period before you became the team principal if this kind of thing had happened what was the reaction in that time? There would have been certain people not to start off is I don't think we'd have had alignment on accepting what the fundamental issues are because communication was a disaster. And also the transparency in terms of politics, etc. Communication is such a key, by the way. Just to put everybody on the same page and also create a safe space that look, nobody's worried about nobody's blaming each other. Only thing important now is to find a solution, right, professionally. That wasn't happening before.

11:17If this would have happened like two, three years ago, it would have been just arguing forever about what the real issue is. And why had Haas got to this point where you weren't communicating very well with your operations in different countries? There was a lot of politics. There was a lot of finger pointing. Why had that been allowed to become what your team was? There's, I think, many dimensions. But if I just talk about what I've done since I became team principal in January, on the first thing, I spent one week sit down with as many people as possible in Bambari, UK, because that's where I'm based.

11:53One-to-one group sessions, bigger sessions, small sessions. Just try to tell them my philosophy, but also listen to them how they see as a problem. Why we couldn't understand the issue of 23. What were they saying to you? It's interesting. So UK side, I knew better, but Italy side was more interesting because I'm not based in Italy, right? And then previously I've had, because I was on the truck side, I've heard quite a lot about, oh, I was complaining about this, but it's not true and all sorts of things. But it's interesting. As soon as I've done exactly the same thing in Italy for one week, sit down one to one, lots of people said to me, we weren't clear what the problem of 23 cars was.

12:33I was like, you joking? Because, you know, we are doing this debrief. We've been telling, you know, exactly what the truck side feedback was and then what the driver say. But then, yeah, yeah, you say that in your debrief. But then afterwards, certain people would say, no, that's not really the issue. So go and do something else. But, you know, I think for me, it's absolutely normal and okay to have disagreement. Right. But at some point, somebody needs to take a decision which direction to go. Either it's a team principal or technical director or head of error. Doesn't matter. Right. But whenever somebody takes that decision, I think that decision needs to be made transparently.

13:10If there's 10, let's say, senior engineers in the room, not everybody's going to agree what the biggest issues are. But if direction was made, okay, we're going to go into this direction, at least everybody needs to understand why we are going to that direction, even if you don't agree. But that kind of alignment, transparency wasn't there. So there were so many people didn't know why we are developing the car in this direction. And were you not able to do anything about it before you were the team principal? When Gunther was in charge, could you not go to him and say, the communication's not working here.

13:41Let's sort this out.

13:45I think we should talk about 24 homeboys probably. I tried my best. But you couldn't make a difference? Yes. No, I mean, yes. Does that make you feel a bit helpless though? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I'm totally honest, I was ready to... quit in Baku 23. Why? Because I just couldn't see how we can move forward like this. People not talking to each other, no transparency, no alignment, no transparent discussion. And it's just people not going in the same direction, unified direction. We are not behaving as a team. And I felt like I put everything on the table. but in my humble view it wasn't happening so I don't like to waste my time I'm not interested in just turning up at the racetrack just to make up numbers if we are not moving forward but I was very close to just walk but what stopped me walking is like I felt a big responsibility there's people who rely on me and people who are depending on me to make a difference so I thought okay I'm not gonna walk until I've done everything or it's not my choice if you like so I wasn't gonna just leave and leave the people I care just behind that's the only reason I didn't leave in 23 yeah man that's hard for you because you're someone that loves the sport so much and you've seen good practices you've worked in teams where communications are excellent haven't you?

15:29Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Like Enstone, when I was working at Enstone, I joined Enstone in 2006. Yeah. Again, so I came from the team called BAR Honda, which was a much bigger team than Enstone, but Enstone was winning championships. They won the championship in 2005 with Fernando. I joined in 2006 as a tire engineer and then the group I was in, so vehicle performance group at BAR Honda, it was like 20 people, 25 people. Enstone, when I joined, I think it was around eight people, but it was amazing the difference was that those eight people, all of them contributed directly to performance.

16:03So that's the difference. And then back then at Enstone, we had a really clear backbone of the team. We had obviously Pat Simmons, James Harrison, Dino Toso, Hedovero, Bob Bell. All those guys are the core senior member of the team. And then it was pure race team. So anything needed to be done, going to those five or six key people. And if one of them or they agree, okay, this is what we're doing we just go so it was very efficient and then clear leadership so that was the difference so I've seen it like you say let's uh let's talk then about your two drivers that drove for you last season um Oli Berman and Esteban Ocon how do they differ oh they're very very different Oli he's such a exciting young kid you know we've been working with him since he was 18 yeah right I just couldn't believe it you know first time I worked with him in Mexico FP1 you know the The maturity he had in understanding what the team needed from him, what the program is all about, what role he needed to play.

17:01Not just, okay, I want to prove to everyone in the world how quick I am. Speed was clear from day one. But what I was most impressed with was his maturity, understanding of the bigger picture. So mature and how quickly he learns. So to me, it was clear that he was a future talent. and then in 23, no, sorry, 24, we worked with him through six FP1s. Again, every single time he proved like, okay, this kid is a real deal. And then, of course, he did amazing things with Ferrari in Saudi P7 when he jumped for us in Baku and then Intel Lagos. He did absolutely amazing job. So it was no brainer that we wanted to sign him for a race drive last year for 25.

17:47And then again, the biggest challenge for us was to build up the consistency. You know, speed, again, is no doubt. He's incredibly quick. Amazing talent. Such a positive kid as well. But again, like at the beginning of the season, even though he showed flashes of talent, he just struggled to put a weekend together. You know, some silly mistakes like Monaco overtaking Carr under a red flag or Silverstone. Carr was so quick, right? So quick. And then at the end of the session, when there was a red flag, he decided to attack the pit lane entry and having a crash. And of course, under Red Black to have a crash is a huge, huge no-no, right?

18:24So gets 10 place grip penalty, right? So things like that really was a tough lesson. But then again, you know, we all together, you know, work together and then work with everybody around Oli, Oli's engineers, Oli himself, of course. And then we just came away and finally in Singapore, he was able to put the weekend together. And Singapore is a tough truck and he never raced there before. and Esteban was very, very quick from the beginning. But that was the weekend where, okay, right, good. Now we've finally done it. This is the baseline. And then if you look at all the races after that, you know, he's been very, very consistent putting weekend together.

19:04And then that Mexico P4, what can I say? He was incredible. You know, he had Max behind him first stint and he had George and Antony behind second stint. Third stint, George and Pierre Street, right? All top teams. top drivers then from outside looks like that does he feel pressure of course he's feeling the pressure he didn't put a foot long amazing the amount of improvements he made maturity as a human being amazing guy you know those moments of inconsistency like i would look at it and go well he knows to lift off under a red flag right he knows not to overtake someone when there's a red flag at monaco or what happened at silverstone so what happens to a young driver in those moments do you think?

19:48I think his judgment obviously like I think that was science in Monaco you know he was coming through certain high speed high speed shikane not the high speed one of the shikanes I think and then he just approached a bit too quickly right but then he could have then you know maybe he didn't have to completely stamp on the brakes not to overtake but if he had overtaking him he could have done completely slow down and let him pass again at least to show that look I'm trying to slow down I threw down but he just once he's ahead he just kept being ahead and went into the pit lane so it's just a small small let's say judgment like you know attacking pit lane injury in Silverstone of course he wanted to try attacking pit lane injury for practice but you know come on it's red flag just bring her home but just that tiny bit of split seconds decision making and how would you manage him where you need to explain to him that was not acceptable in Silverstone but at the same time you need to take into account that he's in his rookie season.

20:47Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's just that you need to be able to have a tough conversation. But I think to be able to have a tough conversation, you have to build a relationship. Relationship of trust, relationship of respect. And then that's foundation to anything. It's like I remember 2024 with Nico Hugenberg. I was very, very happy the relationship we built together. And I believe Nico was performing at his best throughout the season. And we really enjoyed it. That was a new, let's say, benchmark. So when I signed the new drivers, Oli and Esteban for 25, I just said to myself, look, I got to build up the same level of relationship that I achieved with Nico Huykenberg with Oli and Esteban, no doubt.

21:28Just being who you are, but being transparent. And then nothing is a personal attack, but you got to be able to have those tough conversations. And then Oli is very, very open in that respect. So, you know, if you can have those tough conversations, you cannot improve. so when Oli got it wrong in Silverstone or Monaco did you go and speak to him directly or do you speak to his people and explain to him no you got to speak to the person directly you know if I've got issue with you what's the best way to tackle it you got to be sincere and then talk to you directly but in a in a very let's say transparent manner respectful manner you know so that if you go in there you'd understand that this is nothing me personally against you we're only trying to understand how we can improve you and you got to be sincere about it.

22:14It's no point talking with somebody else. It's just a filter. And what made you want to sign Esteban Ocon? Esteban, so we knew that obviously we were signing Oli, right? So then I needed, I can't have two rookies. I needed to have somebody who's got experience, who can provide a benchmark, but then also I wanted somebody who's got really good work ethic because we are still the smallest team. We are still the very young team. So we really need to drive at the center, pushing for development in the right direction. I didn't need a driver, some superstar driver who turns up for the race weekend, drive the car and go home.

22:49I really needed somebody who's really, really got a hard work ethic that can drive the team forward off the track as well as on the track. And then Esteban is that. You know, Esteban, I think his father or his family put a lot on the table to continue Esteban to drive. You know, I think they even saw the home. I think they were living in some sort of like a caravan house or motorhome or something for some time to find Esteban's skating. So Esteban never forgets that. So until he achieved the ultimate, which is the world championship, he would never lift. You know, he would go to any strength to find the performance from himself, from the team, from the car.

23:27that's the kind of person I needed for the team so that's why we signed Esteban and you know he's been racing in F1 for by then nine years and he's a race winner podium finisher he's scored so many points he's got proven track record but he's still so hungry that's exactly the person we needed and I'm interested in how you find out how hungry someone is or how you you work out whether they are a team player or whether they just say the right things that they want you to hear so would you take us into the process of how you hire a Formula One driver? Because I think no one knows how this happens.

23:58They just see a social media post one day, say Esteban Ocon is joining Haas. But no one knows how long you've been talking, where you've spoken, what really happens. Yeah, with Esteban, I think the first time I spoke to him in person was after Miami. Of course, I knew Esteban since a long time ago. I knew Esteban when he was 13, because I was at Enstrom. he was one of the gravity driver and he was still a kid yeah obviously 13 and then didn't speak much english actually i think he was still racing in go-kart or maybe just finished racing in go-kart and we actually did some 12 hours race together i think just for fun but so i knew him since then and i actually ran his car the very first test he did in valencia in f1 car you ran his car yeah yeah yeah oh wow so you had history yeah yeah so i knew him but but then since i left luna since he that actually left that gravity, he went to become a Mercedes driver.

24:50Of course, I kept saying hello to him when I see him on a track, but it's not like we kept in a close touch. But then when I spoke to him, sat down with him after Miami in 24, it's like we never left again. You know, so I wasn't doing the sales pitch either. I was merely, at that point, it was just a conversation. It's not like I really want to sign this guy. And what were you saying to him? I was just saying to him, like, look, where we are, who we are as a team, what our vision is, what we're trying to do in the future. I just said that and then Esteban really bought into that idea. He really wanted to be part of it.

25:24So yeah, that was amazing. And what was he buying into? Because like every F1 driver, if you say, what's your dream? He will say, be the world champion. Of course. It's a hard case to explain to a driver you can be the world champion with Haas, right? Yeah, of course I didn't say that at all. So how do you convince him to join your team? I actually didn't. Like I said, I didn't do a sales job. I just essentially told him you know who we are where we are now what's the current status what's the vision about building the team forward of course I didn't say oh 10 years time we're going to be world champion or you're going to have podium in 5 years time if you come with us none of that I simply told him where we are now and what did you say though about where you are and where you're going that made him excited I think the fact that I think he felt that we are just focused on being more competitive you know we are a race team we are not corporate you know our single ultimate objective is the sporting result at some point of course we're going to challenge for world championship but we are miles away from that so at the moment I can say that in three to five years time I'd like to think we can be fighting towards the top of the midfield consistently but I didn't even say that I just said because that was middle of 24 obviously I was six months into the job I was still trying to make our technical department to work you know but then I can see it started working but there are still lots to do right so I was saying like okay how I see the problem of the current team how I'm addressing it how we are going forward with it together and what's the vision is for next year that that's about that really you know really no let's say fancy story but I think he understood that we are serious we are really focused on making the team more competitive with clear vision clear alignment clear strategy I think that's what he uh he got excited about and I um I think he gets or certainly before this season we just had in 2025, I felt he got unnecessary criticism actually.

27:17And I was never really sure why. You've now seen him close up as a Formula One driver. How good is Esteban Ocon? When you say like unnecessary criticism, what aspect are you talking about? Like a crashing into teammate for example? Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking about. It's funny because like when I announced signing Esteban Ocon, so many journalists said that to me. But then I said, look, I'm not worried whatsoever. Why? Because to me, that's about management. about transparency, about respect. You know, teams and drivers, they need to have a clear rule of engagement. If the driver trusts the team's message clearly and the team trusts the driver, problem will not happen.

27:54That's interesting. So when you see an issue in a team, you don't look at the driver and think the driver's the problem. You look at the communication, the way they're being managed, the processes. But of course, at other teams, I don't know the full story, right? So I'm not judging the situation at all. But what I believe is if we take Esteban in our environment, it's our responsibility to create that transparent environment where drivers, not just Esteban, both Oli and Esteban trust the team completely. Even if we have to let's say swap the drivers around, they need to know why we are doing it.

28:28After, they may not know at that point because they don't have the full picture, but they got to be able to trust us and saying, okay, team is making this decision, not because they want to favor one driver or another, because this is the best for the team. And as long as we've got the open communication policy, whatever the situation, we can solve it. And then probably in terms of that teammate dynamics, the best thing happened is Silverstone. in the race, we are not very competitive. Our car was competitive, but we completely messed up the race strategy because our mindset was wrong. Anyway, that's another story.

29:03But our drivers essentially crushed each other. Not a heavy crash, but completely unnecessarily. And then three of us sat down straight away after the race. I said what I had to say and asked Oli and Esteban their opinion, views on what happened. Of course, their views were very different, right? But that's fine because it's straight after the race. Still emotions high, right? Then all I said was, okay, you know, we basically got to sort this out before next race. And then, you know, you got, let's say, one week to sort this out. And I'm sure you guys can come to agreement. So next time we're meeting, I can't remember what race was after Silverstone.

29:41I can't remember. Let's say if it was, I don't know, Budapest. By the time we turn up in Budapest, let's have a chat. If we haven't come to agreement, I'll make the rule, right? But it's better if you come to agreement because I'm not the one driving the car. So then, of course, they spoke and then they come to agreement. Since then, there's been zero issue. What was the agreement that they came to when they spoke? I didn't even ask. Did you not? I don't need to know because I'm not driving the car. If both drivers agree, that's fine. So you're also showing great trust in them at that point. Absolutely.

30:11You got to. So when you met up at the race after the British Grand Prix and you said to them, have you spoken? What did they say? Yeah, they came to agreement. and you then said okay that's fine that's all I need to know then I'm pretty sure problem is going to happen if it happened again then I have to step in but I was pretty confident he wouldn't again great example Spa so Spa Franco Osham in sprint qualifying we qualified P5 P7 and they had a chat before sprint because P5 P7 great place we got to really convert but Spa fast up you know after Oruj down that camel straight going to the chicane right anything can happen right if we are fighting between P5 and P7 and make a mess.

30:53Somebody from just behind us, P8, P9 guys can overtake us. That we cannot let that happen. So how are we going to do about it? And then again, initially they said, okay, during the race, we're going to do this. Fine. Apart from lap one. Okay, what are you going to do in lap one then? That was important. And then again, if they don't come up with a solution, I had to make a rule. But then that's never going to be great because I'm a driver, right? Yeah. So they know the best how they can manage. Then they made certain agreement. Okay. In this scenario, I have to do this, otherwise I'm going to get overtaken.

31:23But when I'm going to do this, I'm going to put my car here so you can do this. So they had a clear alignment even on lap one, right? Okay, in that particular scenario, it didn't happen, but we were ready. If that was going to happen, we had a clear, clear rule of engagement and understanding. And then we combated that V5, V7. And for the main racer as well, because of the weather, we put one car on high downforce, one car on low downforce. so depending on the weather condition one car is going to be much faster than the other we cannot hold each other up right again you know we spoke before the race and then we agreed okay in this condition we're going to let this guy through straight away before that she can or whenever we can sometimes we cannot even wait until next straight we just do it straight away but when i tell you you have to do it straight away right then they both agreed but in the race i didn't even have to say because about when the lap i was about thinking okay half a lap later i going to have to instruct the swap.

32:17Esteban came on the radio and said, Oli is much faster in this condition. I let him through here. Let him know. Did it by themselves. So who said that? Esteban? Esteban. So Esteban himself volunteered the fact that Oli could come through? Yeah, at that point. Yeah. So again, that's the teamwork. And then Oli knows that in an opposite situation, that Oli would do the same. Esteban the same. So it's great. You know, honestly, it's about building up that transparency and trust. If drivers cannot trust the team, then issue will happen. If the rule of engagement wasn't clear, imagine that lap one in a spa situation.

32:52If it wasn't clear, either hold the position, you're free to race, but what's the limit as a teammate? That had to be clear. If there's no clarity, things can happen. Then people can start blaming each other, but just to be upfront about it and having that clarity, that's important. And do you think actually, in hindsight, the coming together in Silverstone was a good thing? That's what I said. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. At the time it was painful. It's like, oh my God, I cannot believe after seven races or whatever, we've done that. But luckily we've done that at the Let's Sayer when the stakes are low, only because we made a mess of the strategy.

33:32I think one of the really impressive things about you is you're an engineer, right? Yeah. But you have this ability to understand human beings and particularly human beings who sit behind the wheel of a race car. Yeah. But human beings are the most interesting thing. More interesting than the numbers and the data. Yeah. At the end of the day, human beings create those numbers, right? Yeah. And the human beings are the ones interpreting those numbers. and the human beings are the ones making decisions. If you don't understand human beings, like drivers, they're not robots, right? They got emotions, they got good days and bad days.

34:10So you got to understand how to get performance out of them, performance out of a team, performance out of engineers. So my job is to get performance out of a team, individuals, groups. So yeah, I'm naturally interested in human being anyway. So if we rewind the clock to the days when you were working with Fernando Alonso, for example, in the same team as him, what did you learn from from fernando as one of the greats uh so i was tire engineer right this is 20 years ago so again you know when i say about you know interested in human beings of course life experience counts a lot you know i'm uh you know now 20 years older than i was so my life experience is totally different but when i was a young tire engineer young working with fernando on the tire testing on the Michelin tire.

34:55It was amazing that his capability or his, you know, if you say to Fernando, okay, we're going to have to do 15 laps or 20 laps race simulation or race stint simulation. I want to use up tires in this way. Last four or five laps, you got improved lap time this much. And then by the end up of sector two, I want this tire to be completely finished. He's incredible. He knows how he drives in the first five laps. he knows exactly what that tyre is going to do in 20 laps time that's the talent right it's incredible it's incredible he basically when you instruct him like this he basically goes watch and he just goes and does it incredible because I you know when he was at Ferrari he drove me around the track at Maranello oh really and I was gripping on the side of the seat because he was going fast sure sure and he looked at me and laughed of course and he said don't worry I know the track quite well and he closed his eyes and for like three corners drove around like And I was like, okay, this is a guy on another level to most people.

35:53No, it's crazy. I mean, for him, driving, I wouldn't say automatic, but almost like automatic. Something just happens. He can drive a car at such a high level without using, let's say, 10 % of his mental capacity. But that's the difference, though, between good drivers and top drivers. Top drivers, they have so much spare capacity to optimize everything else. So I remember one race Fernand was doing, I can't remember which year, but he was leading and then he got bored. Obviously, his lap time has been great, right? So nothing to suggest he's bored. But of course, he was bored because it's so easy for him.

36:29Then I remember I think he radioed back to the team, said there's going to be a safety car, right? Then we had no idea. Then after the race, he told me because he was bored, he was watching the big TV screen. He saw somebody crashing somewhere or something. So he noticed it. So he told us. and also I remember I think was it Budapest one year I think French TV wanted to do an interview with Fernando basically he wanted the TV company wanted Fernando to talk through a lap so he was doing that you know radio talking on the radio going through Budapest Tangaro Link and I can't remember the lap time he was doing but I thought he was going to drive like I don't know 10 seconds of the pace but he was doing pretty decent lap time but if you listen to his radio it's so calm as if he's sitting on the sofa at home yet he's driving the car not too far from the limit.

37:17He's incredible. And he had a and still maybe less so but certainly had a reputation of being quite a fiery character back in those days. Did you ever see that or not? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember I think when we had a 1-2 finish in Malaysia I think Fizi won there and Fernand II I don't think he was happy. Why not? Because he didn't win his teammate won. Because his teammate won. Yeah. but back then Enstone was all about Fernando you know really yeah yeah of course he was the main driver he rightly so but just losing you know finishing second behind his teammate he wasn't happy and I remember and also like later on much later on not the same year I can't remember the year but I was on Nelson Pique Jr.'s car I think we got podium in Hockenheim in a certain specific scenario because I think to do with safety I can't remember the details anyway so Nelson finished ahead of Fernando Fernando wasn't happy again but this is the interesting thing you know now now that you're not a tire engineer that you're the team principal you kind of like you want your drivers to be team players you want your drivers to please the sponsors you want your drivers to see the bigger picture you want your drivers to work well together but you also want a driver that has that thing that Ensen has that Lewis Hamilton has that Max Verstappen has that Fernando Alonso has that Michael Schumacher had, that edge where they also just want to destroy their teammate, right?

38:48Of course, everybody does. How do you get that balance then? Yeah, because you've got to look at the moment that matters and the moment they've got to work for the team. It's too different. If you ask me the question about, let's say McLaren, a good example, Norris and Piastri, it's a totally, totally different situation to manage. Both of them are going for driver's championship. our guys you know Oli and Esteban they're not going for Drivers' Championship so in a way it's much easier for me to manage that imagine if we have this situation where let's say Esteban and Oli are going for both got a chance to win the Drivers' Championship then to having this rule of engagement working for the team in this clear manner will be another step more difficult yeah but there is a time you have to let them completely race most of the time you let them race completely you know fair and square As long as you don't touch, it's fine.

39:40Free to race. We say that every time. But definitely when you get to the situation where you're like a McLaren last year, Norris and Pierre Stree is going for championship, it's a much more difficult environment. And all of the fans have their opinion about Zac Brown's decision to let the drivers race and Andrea Stela's decision to let them race. What do the other team principals think of this idea where McLaren say they're free to race if it costs us the world title, then it does. But they are free to race. huge respect you know whether I can take the same decision I'd like to think I can say the same thing but until I'm put in that situation I don't know right so I have a huge respect in McLaren who let Norris and Pierce-Tree race because that's what fans want to see right so it's brilliant so interesting isn't it because I think if they said from the middle of the season let's say if they said from I don't know Zandvoort onwards Oscar is now our favourite Lando you're going to support him there'd be loads of criticism they then allow them to race to the point where like I couldn't believe an Oscar over to Orlando in that first corner of the last race could you I was like wow they are genuinely allowing them to fully race to the last race of the season no it's a free credit to them you know I think that's what fans want to see but the fans would criticise if they just prioritise one driver but they also criticise for letting them race it almost feels to me like the one thing you could never do in Formula 1 is please everybody.

41:07No, no. So you got to have your belief and value, conviction, right? You got to execute what you believe is right. Let's say in sync to your core value. So, you know, full respect to them for them, letting them race each other like that. It's brilliant. Would you say Fernando is the most naturally talented driver you've ever worked with? Yeah. For out of the drivers I worked with, yes, naturally talented. It's very difficult to say because Roman Grosjean was very, very naturally talented. that on his day he was so quick, so quick. Oli Beerman is incredibly quick. So it's a bit difficult to say, hands down, he was most naturally gifted, but I'd say, you know, people like Oli Beerman, Roman Grosjean, naturally very, very fast.

41:50I've got a quote actually from, you said this about Roman many years ago, and I'm sure you remember it. You said everybody recognizes his natural speed. Yeah. Everybody recognizes his lack of consistency. Yeah. And the lack of progress that he's able to make because of sometimes the emotional side of things. Can you take us back to that period in Roman's career? And I'm really interested to talk to you about this because I think you and him had a really special relationship. And you went to Haas with him and you were with him in some really great times, but some difficult times. Yes. That period where Mark Webber was calling him a first lap nutcase and he had that huge moment in Spa and there was a few things going on.

42:30like what was happening at that point with with roman that was very very difficult and then i was very young as well as a race engineer and then i don't think you know if i had a five years more life experience i feel i feel that uh i could have helped romain a different way but you know as a race engineer or as a human being i didn't have that life experience to help him more so i I felt really bad about it afterwards, to be honest. Yeah, yeah, because it was very difficult. And it's got, in a way, it's almost nothing to do with racing. It's just about one human being, you know, in terms of mindset, emotional status, etc.

43:10But then, you know, great person Romain is, I remember catching up with Romain a few years ago in Brazil, just having a dinner together. And Romain, you know, to this day, I feel really bad. I couldn't have done more. If we could go back to 2012, and you know what you know now as an experienced team principal, what would you have said to him? At least I think, I don't know exactly what I would have said to him, but at least I would have faced it more from Tom. Not in terms of aggressiveness or anything. I wouldn't have shied away from certain aspects of his character. And did you do that? You shied away from talking about certain things?

43:47I think so because I didn't know what to do about it. I didn't know how I could help. In what area? It's about, for instance, that famous incident in Suzuka where he drove into Mark Webber. Then Mark Webber came after the race and then, you know, came to Roman's room and, you know, punching and kicking every single panelist you can think of and then stormed off and then Roman crying on the floor, you know, then like... Crying? Yeah, like, yeah. Then for me, like, if I was Roman, even if I was at fault, if somebody came kicking down all my panelists, I would kick this guy out, right? But he couldn't do that, you know?

44:22But then in that emotional status, I didn't know what's the best way for me to help him, if you like. I didn't tackle it head on. What did you say to him at that point? That's the issue. I couldn't offer anything, let's say, meaningful. But I think if I had more life experience, I could have treated in a different way. I could have went through whatever the problem he had together a bit more than that could have made a big difference. now I know but I just couldn't do it back then but then when I met with Roman a few years ago in Tel Lagos I said that I really feel I let you down by not being able to help you in that instance because I didn't have a life experience you know I wish I had five years more life experience I would have done it differently I would have you know gone through the journey together with you to get you out of the hole if you like the rock bottom he was saying not just in Suzuka many other incidents right but Roman And it was, Roman said to me, Ayao, we grew up together.

45:22I don't want Ayao with five more life experience back then. I wouldn't change anything. You know, it's a great guy. Yeah, what a lovely thing for him to say. Yeah, I know for him to say that was, yeah, it was amazing. But I still feel I wish I could have done more.

45:47one of the things that we often make a mistake with when it comes to people who are in the spotlight and whether it's formula one drivers or you know elite business people top footballers hugely famous people we think that they're surrounded by information surrounded by love surrounded by praise but actually the truth is and alanda norris has spoken about this in the last couple of years is lonely yes very lonely and i imagine roman felt lonely at absolutely absolutely i remember after the suzuka incident i knew i'm going to tokyo or he was going to tokyo i was in tokyo as well but i didn't have a capacity to reach out to him and come on let's just have a go yeah go and spend some time together let's just talk it through or whatever just to offer that emotional support i didn't know what to do and i was at my limit as well so yeah so yeah if if seriously like if i was had five years more experience i would have done it differently i'm sure that would have made a difference but for roman to say that three years ago when i said that to him that just shows that what a great guy he is and then we are very good friends you'd obviously carried that i think hadn't you of course of course it's a responsibility yeah you know and then you you want to do best possible right and then back then of course i i knew i should be doing it better but i just didn't know how you know um we had a great conversation on this show with alex albon okay who spoke about his time at red bull right and as the pressure increased the desire to do well increased yes so he drove the car harder which then meant he made more mistakes.

47:30So the pressure increased. So the desire to do well increased. Do you feel that was maybe what was going on with Roman at that time? He was so desperate to not make another mistake that he did. Yeah, one of the things with Roman that happened in India as well, he's very, very talented, right? But so many people thought he was arrogant, but he's not arrogant, you know? He was so, in a way, insecure, lacking confidence. So I feel like every single time he went out on the track, Like even FP1 lap 1, he needed to put everything out there to prove to the world that he's the quickest guy out there. Of course, FP1 lap 1, you know, nobody cares.

48:10Yes, that's not true. But you don't need to show every time you go out there, you try to show that you are the quickest guy. That's not how you should be approaching the weekend or FP1. But Roman was a bit like that. So I remember one year in India, India, the circuit, the grip level is so low. like turn one he just kept locking up kept locking up he couldn't even make a corner he couldn't even do a one lap without locking up really badly right and he's saying no no this car's no blah blah blah that was race engine so I looked at data against Kimi Kimi Raikkonen was his teammate he's already breaking a lot later than Kimi and you can see on Kimi's data that he's on the verge of locking front or rear right Kimi's already here but Roman trying to drive it there but Grippe is not there right but even when i showed him that and told him that he couldn't bring it back and he kept saying no no i should be able to break there i should be able to break no you cannot you know kim is a very good driver if he's on the limit here that's the limit bring it back but he cannot do that and of course after that one he after the session he was able to adjust it and then i can't remember if that was the same year but he finished second on the podium so it's just such a find balance but um you know what creates a disaster like that is also what makes him go unbelievably quick as well like we are talking about olivier man earlier you know he crashed in melbourne like i was talking to him after melbourne going to shanghai i said to shanghai i said sorry i said to olivier in shanghai your single objective this weekend is to do every single lap that is on the run program don't miss a single lap you just got to do that i don't care about lap time because you are quick I do not care about lap time even if you ended this weekend half a second of Esteban Ocom I don't care I know your ability but you got to do the laps that's so interesting because in that case you're giving Oli the freedom not to be fast like you know I'm not going to judge you for not being quick enough but I will judge you if you can't get a full clean session yeah because he is quite you know capable of doing that but it's interesting what Oli said year by year you know so again the year before so I got Oli last minute to race in Brazil so because Kevin wasn't very well Kevin Magnussen wasn't very well so I remember calling him 6 in the morning Oli are you up I just woke up by the way can you drive in FP1 5 hours later because Kevin's not very well so then he locked up without any preparation right because he wasn't expecting to drive then I still remember FP1 lap 1 the lap he did I just couldn't believe what I was saying incredible no preparation jump in the car with five-hour notice.

50:51I just couldn't believe he can do that. So that very thing he said to me is the same thing as makes me crash in Melbourne, which is true because he's able to put the car on the limit straight away like that. But you just got to judge. It's just such a fine line going a tiny bit over, crashing heavily like Melbourne or being a hero in Intel Lagos. Again, you know, when he raced for Ferrari in Saudi because of science health issue, right? You know, he finished the race in P7, But that qualifying, I think he touched the wall a few times. You know, he had a great weekend suddenly jumping in a car from FP3 onwards to produce that for Ferrari.

51:28But that was also millimeters away from a crashing in qualifying and disaster. Right. So like you said, it's a knife edge. But just trying to judge that all the way through the weekend. Of course, if this is the peak and this is a knife edge, you're not being on the right side of it until the very last moment. if somebody crashed in Q3 if Oli crashed in Q3 run 2 I don't blame him you put everything on the line and then just a tiny bit over crash but like Baku Q2 run 1 where there's no need to take that risk and he was too much close to the edge and a bit of a gust of tailwind he crashed or touched the wall and broke suspension so it's such a fine line Do you think Oli Behrman has the skills that it takes to be a world champion one day?

52:12I think so I don't see the limitation in him he's brilliant The thing is, you've got to have the speed to start off. Roman had it, Oli certainly has it. And then the way he's learning so quickly is impressive. And then he's very, very open to, let's say, constructive criticism. Whenever I have a tough conversation, he knows that I'm not personally attacking him. So even if he disagrees, he at least listens and he takes it in, digests it, then action. and if you look at the consistency he achieved in the last half of the season from Singapore on was impressive. Amazing. Going back to Roman. Yeah.

52:50In that time where he was struggling. Yeah. I know that he went and saw a sports psychologist. Yeah. Did you notice the difference in his performances after that? No. No. Interesting, isn't it? How we assume, oh, if you go and see a sports psychologist, all your problems are solved. No way. It's not like that. no I think it's just one human being to one human being you got it's not about sports psychology or you know you got a really like open hearted conversation and you got to find that person who's completely resonates and talk to you so yeah it's not like there's an easy solution okay you got mental problem you cannot understand how to prepare your weekend I'll go and see the sports psychologist know that it may work if you find the absolutely right person you happen to find the right person it may work but I don't think it made much difference in that instance it's hard though isn't it because I think we would both probably agree that Roman Grosjean had the raw material to be a Formula 1 world champion yeah I agree and he will know that yeah on his day he was so quick I remember going to Monaco I think this is even like first year of partnership with Kimi you know Kimi was still very very fast that year going to monaco roman put seven tenths on kimmy i think it was incredible i knew roman was quick in monaco but wow like the turn three casino on its own the amount of time he took off kimmy the amount of minimum speed he was carrying was like wow then one year he was incredibly quick every single session he was in top three and then uh fp so that's the year he have won Monaco for sure, right?

54:34At least podium. And then what happens? FP3. So he's already done purple sectors and then he was like top three on the timesheet again. And then we are going to come in, right? Lear tyres already finished, so we are going to come in. Then Roman, but then at the back of the circuit, just like 30 seconds away from a pit entry, Roman said, can I do one more lap? Again, that's my lack of experience. I should have said no just come in rear tires already finished i said yes right what happens next trap he goes into turn one heavy crash he's already said tires finished right and then he goes into turn one crashed and he said like oh something's broken brake didn't work i looked at it he braked so much later into turn one rear tires already finished you can see visually rear tires grind so ria's not there anymore he braked later than when he was on the brand new tire so no wonder he crashed right and that's his whole weekend gone completely because then we are rebuilding the car right but again if i had a bit more experience maturity i'd have been strong enough to say no roman realty has finished you've done your upcoming there's no point then that wouldn't have happened so that's my regret for instance right but then yeah so that was a heavy crash broke lots of things and then uh but then the teamwork after that going into q1 was amazing though.

55:53So we are rebuilding the car. Of course, Q1's already started. As soon as Kimi's car went out of our garage, all the mechanics from Kimi's side of the garage came onto our car, Roman's car. I love those things. It gives you goosebumps. Oh, completely. I was a race engineer, helplessly standing, waiting for these guys to finish their work, shouting, get the car down on the ground, we need to go, and my number of mechanics shouting like, we haven't even bred the brakes, we cannot send the car. I said, pump the brake federal couple of times it'll be okay we'll just send it but it was amazing huge team I can't remember how many people were working on that car and then Roman already sitting on a car on the high stand and then we send it out and when we send it out obviously he did purple sectors and he went through Q1 no problem that was amazing moment right and then Q2 we hit the traffic and we are out and then again it was huge disappointment so it's just emotional roller coaster but yeah I still remember those moments that's Formula 1 good and bad yeah Yeah, well, I mean, I guess the greatest emotional rollercoaster of your life in Formula One would have been the incident in Bahrain when Roman crashed.

57:00Yeah. And like the rest of the world, you were watching and feeling totally powerless, I guess. Oh, totally. Honestly, to start off, very first instance, I didn't know it was Roman, right? And then the minute I realized it was Roman, obviously I'm thinking he cannot be alive. Yeah. He's my friend. You know, he's my racing driver, but he's my friend. Yeah. Yeah, that felt like eternity. And I actually didn't see him get out of the car and walking. And then one of the race engineers said on Intercom, no, no, romance out, romance out. Were you trying to talk to him before then? No, no, no, no, no.

57:40So there's no attempt at communicating with him after the crash? No, I wasn't a race engineer. But all I remember now is just a big ball of fire, obviously. And where were you at that time? Pit wall. You were on the pit wall? Yeah. And then somebody told me that Roman's out of the car, but I didn't see it. But I said, are you sure he's out? Because I just couldn't believe he's out. And then when I saw him on the TV screen, okay, wow, he's out. Now I went to see him before he got airlifted to the hospital. I managed to catch grumps of him and he gave me thumbs up. He was in the medical center. I was just outside.

58:14And then the guy at the medical center just let me into the certain point. And then he saw me and he gave me thumbs up. Okay, he's alive. right and then we've done the race and then Kevin you know Kevin of course hasn't physically seen him so you know sounds stupid but we are both the same you know Kevin said to me like he still cannot believe Roman's alive so he said we need to go to hospital to see him I was the same the reason I went to see him before he got airlifted to the hospital was even though I saw it on TV I just still can't comprehend that he's alive I just wanted to I needed to see him in my own eyes that he's alive and then let his wife know that, look, I've seen him, he's alive.

58:57Did you go to the hospital? Yeah, yeah. After that, it's me and Kevin went to see Roma in the hospital and he was already smiling then. What did you say to him? I can't remember what I said to him. We just saw, I think we just said to him, I can't believe you're alive. You know, you are alive. You're still here. It's incredible. The people who saw the chassis afterwards, what they talk about is the smell rather than what they saw completely the smell horrible absolutely horrible that viton rubber burning smell is just horrible and then looking at that chassis tab you cannot imagine somebody can come out of this alive it's horrible and then when the chassis came back there's still roman's racing shoes stuck behind the pedal no yeah yeah yeah Yeah, because his left foot, because when he was in the car, he tried to pull himself out.

59:48He got to start on stage and he realized his left foot is stuck behind the pedal. So he had to then bring himself back down so that he can grip something, hold of something and gain power to pull his leg out. So when he did that, of course, his foot come off the racing shoes. So racing shoes is still stuck in the cockpit behind the pedal. and then he put his left hand in the flame of fire in the halo and then pushed himself and came out but what was really moving was so they let me watch the on-board footage of course on-board footage to the public cuts out like the minute you have the that kind of serious accident but since Roman made it alive and then they let me watch it so that I can understand you know is there any safety feature improvement we can make etc but when I was watching that footage what was so moving, but you can tell, but Roman, Roman Grosian never gave up surviving, not just for himself, but for his wife, for his kids.

1:00:51You can see he never gave up. Incredible. And then every single decision he made was correct in the cockpit to get him out of the car. If he made one wrong decision and if he spent another five, ten seconds in that point, he could have been dead. you know his norm X etc in terms of timing I can't remember the timing if it was certified let's say honestly I can't remember the time certain minutes to be a fireproof that was right on the limit so only bad burn he had was his hand because he had to put his hand in the frame of fire to push himself up you know but again the moment he realized his foot was stuck yeah if he spent a bit longer in that position trying to put his leg out he probably failed to do that and he might have been dead but he made a decision to go back in when he's surrounded by fire right so that he can gain strength in terms of body position to pull his leg out so everything was correct but it's funny when I was talking with Roman after us after having seen the footage and then uh so him like you are so brave going back back down to then pull your leg out because you are surrounded by fire at that stage an interesting thing Roman said yeah but at that point I wasn't surrounded by fire no no Roman you are you know fire everywhere but interesting as a human survival instinct I think that completely blocked out all the fire surrounding so he didn't he didn't in his head he wasn't in a fireball at that point he saw that came later after yeah so so then I don't know maybe it's the subconscious human survival mechanism that allows you to go to have a courage to go back in to then pull your leg out then he realized he was but I saw the footage clearly he was completely surrounded by fire I mean it's an incredible thing to talk about because your entire job right is to try and get a group of people and the two drivers to find their human limits and to push the limit of a car to the very edge and I think it's only in a moment when you would have watched the on-board footage that we haven't seen is that actually it gives you an insight into what a human being can do when they really need to fight absolutely you will see a man fighting for his life and and i think about that shoe because it's important to let people know if they don't that formidon drivers don't wear shoes they wear boots right yes yes so he's wearing a race boot that would have been and also those race boots are tight tight yes because you need to have a great connection with the pedal so we are talking about finding the fight to pull a tightly laced boot off your leg in that moment.

1:03:35I mean, that is... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Essentially, forcing us to dislocate your ankle or something. Easily. Just to pull yourself out. Yeah. But he had to do that and he did it. He just, but every single movement he did, the decision he made was correct. But even to know that he was facing this way and the way to live is to go that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't even, that's what gets me once he's out of the car, surrounded by fire, to know that the barrier is there and that's where the medic sides. I mean, if people, you know, don't believe in something else, something higher, you have to watch that and think that maybe something else was going on.

1:04:08Yeah, but yes, but seriously, just the fact that he never gave up, that was so inspirational. And I told this to Marion, Marion was in Roman's wife. And then Marion said, I want to see. I said, no, no, no, you shouldn't see. But then Marion said, no, no, I want to see. I said, are you sure? Then she watched it and she said it really helped her tremendously. And I get it totally because imagine seeing your husband never, ever gave up, tried everything until the very, very last moment just to get out of that for you and your kids. How powerful is that? Honestly, that was one of, if not the most moving thing I've ever seen.

1:04:49And you're a dad. Yes. Yes. So you can relate to the emotion. A hundred percent. And then the fact that he walked across the track was because he wanted to show to his family back at home on TV that dad is okay, he's walking. Because they offered to take him on the stretcher to the car. He insisted on walking, you know, with the aid so that he can show to his wife and kids that dad's okay. Amazing, yeah? Amazing. And how did it change your mindset or how does it work for you now that your job is still to build a car for a driver to climb in and drive at over 200 kilometers an hour. Did it change the way that you thought about life or motor racing or not?

1:05:31I don't think it did, really, because you know that you're always next to danger. Of course, that's in your face, you know, that you nearly lost a friend, you know, dear friend, like Roman. And then my kids are similar age. His first two kids are exactly the same age as my first two kids. So we are like family friends, right? to lose, almost coming to losing family friends like that was scary to say the least. But in that way, it didn't change. But of course, I always believe in living for the moment, you know, because you got to appreciate the moment you got. And if there was something you want to do, you better do it now rather than saying, let's do it tomorrow.

1:06:12Let's come back next year. No, no, no. You got to do it now. You know, for instance, when I was younger, let's say when I was winning championship at the Runo in 2006. I thought, okay, we can win championship again in 2008, 2009, whatever. But no, that is a precious moment. You may never win it again, so you've got to make most of it. Those things gradually, you really begin to realize. So it's not just one thing, but again, that reaffirmed, let's say, my belief that you really have to be grateful the moment you've got right now. You've got to make most of it. I think so. and also learning to live without regrets, I guess.

1:06:51I know that you lost your dad when you were relatively young, only 19 years of age, and your dad had this incredible story of a political prisoner. I know that you, in my research for this, I know that you and your mum took a trip to Germany after he'd passed away, and you had an emotional moment in a museum where you found a book that he'd been involved in. And I just wonder whether, and I've heard you talk about the fact that you didn't feel you were fully present or weren't respectful enough of who your dad was maybe when he was alive. And whether you think about that when you think about having no regrets.

1:07:23Yeah, for sure. Like I wasn't a great kid. I was very rebellious. I was angry at lots of things. Authority, adults, school teachers. Yeah, I was very, very angry kid. So yeah, I don't think I was behaving in a very good manner. And then the fact that he passed away before I could show him that, yeah, I could, let's say, live, if you like. He must have been so worried when I said, I'm going to UK because I want to do Formula One in the future. He must have thought, oh my God, irresponsible, rebellious. What about brave and courageous and full of self-belief? He might have thought all those things as well.

1:08:07That would have been nice if he thought that, but just I don't think that my behavior when I was like 14 to 18, I don't think he wasn't correct. And then I don't know, now I'm a father, but, you know, from his side, he must have been so worried. You know, I don't know what gave him belief that I could do it responsibly. Maybe he thought, you know, but honestly, he said both my mom and dad said, okay, if that's what you want to do, go for it, chase it. You know, so I'm really, really grateful about that. I remember I was 14 when I thought, I want to do this, Formula One. Everybody said, don't be so stupid.

1:08:43You'll never make it. Just go to university in Japan, get a job. But then only my parents, my mom and dad said, if that's what you really want to do, just figure out how to do it. Just go for it. So I'm really grateful about that. I still remember having, you know, you have this parents evening, right? So at the high school, so how old was I? Coming to 18, the final year of high school, this parents meeting with my mom and my teacher and he said to me you should you should just try to go to university in japan because somebody like you if you go to uk you're gonna get addicted to drugs and you're gonna be a failure yeah yeah that's what literally what he said you're gonna be a drug addict and then you will achieve nothing come back to japan then he said to me like when you are when you are homeless and then uh in living in a cardboard box house in outside of Shinjuku station then when you shout at me saying oh Mr.

1:09:34Mana I'm going to ignore you so literally teacher said that in front of my mum I was that bad so I just said to him don't worry I'm not going to fail but even if I fail I will never ever ask for your help don't worry about it so I said mum come let's go you need to track that teacher down if he's still alive and give him a VIP pass to come and meet the team principal of the Haas Formula 1 team at a race this season I wasn't very good kid so to be fair to him like I understand why he said it his delivery wasn't correct but I get why he said it because I wasn't a very good kid well look those moments are all part of our story yeah right you being written off by that teacher struggling with your own emotions the the life that you've lived in Formula One the highs the lows the challenges all the things we've spoken about are actually all necessary for you to have made it to this point and be the team principal that you are and for the Perhaps F1 fans that are watching this conversation just to finish off with, as we look ahead to 2026, what would you like them to understand about your ambitions for the team this coming season?

1:10:37Oh, coming season, no doubt, it's going to be a tough season. You know, we are still the smallest team. We're making lots of improvement. I think in terms of the way we support each other, you know, help each other moving with the common goal, it's really good. We are becoming a good team, but still we are the smallest team. So the huge regulation change, we are up against it. but what I believe in is whatever is thrown at us in January February March when we run the car in the very early part of the season the belief that two years in a row we are able to develop the head out of the car and finish the season fifth fastest car gives us lots of confidence we can tackle anything you might have found a golden bullet you might you might go out of that very first test in just a few days time and be the fastest car I don't like to keep hoping because if you just keep hoping you don't achieve anything you know you got to be able to do something substantial.

1:11:27You know, you cannot just say, oh, this year was really bad. Forget about it. Next year will be good. What have you done to make next year better? Okay, what about evidence then? Williams went from 17 points to 137 points, ninth on the grid to fifth on the grid. It can be done. It can be done, but Williams and us are totally different teams, right? Williams is actually a very big team. They've got like a thousand people and then they've got most of the things that's available to them. But, you know, the guys done an amazing job. You know, they were struggling at the bottom of the field for a few years, but they had that enough belief in themselves to build it up, build it up, not get lost in a short-term objective.

1:12:04And then this is the result, you know, hats off to them. But we don't have the same, let's say, a resource as Williams. So we got to gradually, gradually build up that kind of resource as well. So it's a totally different environment, but, you know, each 10 teams from next year, it's 11 teams, everybody's got different environment, right? So the way to success for each team is different. But then the good thing about our team is we've got good people, great people, really great synergy. And then we are pure race team, you know. And then we focus on what we need to achieve and then just really trying to be inclusive, support each other.

1:12:39So, yeah, looking forward to it. Well, I'm excited already. I've got a few quickfire questions to finish with.

1:12:49What are the three non-negotiable behaviors that you think are most important in life? For me, respect, humility. I don't know, humbleness comes very close to humility. And then, yeah, those are non-negotiable. Very good. What's the best advice you've ever been given? From my parents, like, okay, if that's what you want to do, you can do anything, just go for it. So for me, lots of people ask me, like, how you made it to Formula One. You know, since you were a kid, you wanted to do Formula One. You made it. Do you think I can do it? I say, of course you can. you know don't think about you know if you think about your objective is there if you're trying to imagine every single step you have to take it's too daunting right i always say just don't think about that don't think about the consequence just to take the first step once you take the first step that will show you you will see what the step number two three four looks like don't worry about step step 100 when you haven't made a step so for most of the things in life i believe if you try you can do it.

1:13:50So just take that first step. I love that. What's your biggest strength? Strength? I guess it's a determination of the ability to take. I don't think anything is impossible. Most of the things, like I said, if you put your mind to it, you can do it. So I don't take no for no. What's your greatest weakness? Controlling my emotion, I guess. Especially it's important as a leader. You know, I get very impatient or frustrated about, let's say, certain issues we face, but, you know, I need to be more patient. And then, yeah, I think that's probably the weakness. What would you say to a young IO just starting out in life?

1:14:35Listen to that bit more because my dad always said to me, you know, the hard work, the work ethic is more important than the talent. But for me, my dad was very, very talented guy. So I thought that is a lie. you know because you saying that because you're so talented but then i saw i thought unless you have a talent it's no point trying it's so wrong so that that was me when i was like 12 13 14 but then once i decided i want to do formula one the fact that i wasn't talented in math and physics didn't matter because i want to do formula one to do formula one i need to study math and physics doesn't matter if i'm not talented right if somebody can do this problem in five minutes so it takes me two hours so be it is what you're gonna do about it right so for me the ability to put yourself you know immerse yourself and then to be never giving and never leaving anything on the table that ability is so important i want to tell my 12 years old when i was 12 years old now listen to your dad that that is much more important than having a talent for sure and the final question what is the golden rule do you think to living a high performance life for me it's a relentless pursuit of excellence, you know, perfection.

1:15:47You know, every single time you got to look at yourself, you look at the environment, how can we make another step? How can we make an improvement? Just keep thinking that if you are comfortable, you haven't tried hard enough. I think every day you got to think about, okay, have you put yourself out of your comfort zone once today? If you haven't, you haven't tried hard enough. I love that conversation. And I cheer you on, by the way, because I'm a bit of a formal non-purist and I see a lot of teams backed by venture capitalists or I see teams backed by car manufacturers. And I don't see very many teams anymore that are a rater like Gene Haas in the mould of Eddie Jordan, a good friend of mine.

1:16:26Putting his money in, creating a small, scrappy, aggressive team. You've gone for a guy in Esteban Ocon who had to fight to get into Formula One, a guy through Oli Behrman who's got this amazing talent and he needs someone to channel it into the right place. And I think in you, Hass have an amazing leader. And very interesting what you said about the culture previously and where it is now. And I think your legacy is not necessarily just winning races and picking up points. Your legacy is changing a culture in a team that allows the next generation of Formula One mechanics, engineers and drivers to thrive.

1:17:01Thank you, because that's what we're trying to build. You know, for me, the result is result. You know, you cannot control result 100%, right? Some of it is out of your hands. but what you can control is your process you know so you our process is like believing our core values we want to build a race winning team in the distant future with the core value not diverting from that and i believe we can do it so thank you brother thank you very much so there you have it io komatsu's journey from near breaking point in baku 2023 to building one of formula one's most inspiring team cultures and i think what stands out isn't just the technical brilliance or the points haul over those years.

1:17:41It's the human side, the way that he learned from that painful period with Roman Grosjean, the trust he's built with Oli Behrman and Esteban Ocon, the courage to have tough conversations, the transparency that changed the team on the brink of collapse into a genuinely unified operation. And, you know, Haas are not the biggest team, right? They're not backed by a huge car manufacturer or a venture capitalist, but they've got something more valuable, a pure racing culture that I think is built on respect, humility and that relentless pursuit of excellence as io said if you're comfortable you haven't tried hard enough so put yourself outside your comfort zone look if you enjoyed this conversation oh there are so many great formula one chats that you can find carlos signs philando alonso david jensen button christian horner toto wolf suzy wolf lando norris and so many more if i read them all out we'd be listening to this for another week don't forget we release new conversations every Monday.

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