How To Deal With Negative People

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1:52You're listening to the High Performance Podcast. This is one of our shorter Friday episodes where myself and Damien Hughes delve into a topic that we think is really valuable for you. Hey, Damien. Hey, Jake. How are you? Well, I want to do something slightly random. Do you mind? Go on. Did you ever think that I would start an episode of High Performance with a quote from Marilyn Monroe? No, I never did. So go on. I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for this one. You know, the other thing is you never actually know with these quotes whether the person they say said them actually said them. Well, there's an old joke.

2:21I like the one where it says, don't believe everything you read on the internet and it's attributed to Abraham Lincoln. I love that. You shouldn't name drop Damien. The king told me that. Anyway, enough bad dad jokes. This is the quote. Cutting negative people from my life does not mean I hate them. It simply means I respect me. That's a quote from Marilyn Monroe. And the reason why we want to talk about that today is because this is an episode about how you can learn to deal with negative people. because the truth is that they can show up everywhere, at work, in your social circle, sometimes even at home.

2:57But maybe the most pervasive and nasty place that a negative person shows up is in your own head. You know, I remember speaking on this podcast to one of my favorite ever guests, the creator of the 5AM Club, Robin Sharma, who said there's a negativity bias in the human brain. So our brains are wired to look for threats, right? It's what kept us alive when we were living in caves and we were running away from wild animals. And here we are hundreds of years later and we don't need to be like that anymore. But some people still are. And the truth is that the people who are negative, the people who are critical, the people who always see the downside, not the upside, can drain your energy.

3:31They can cloud your thinking. They can limit your progress. And so we thought today we would just share a few lessons and learnings about negative people and what we can do about them on the show. What would you like to share with people to kick us off, Damien? Well, I wanted to talk about the concept of emotional contagion. There's an idea that many people will be familiar with about mirror neurons, that when you watch or you observe somebody else, your brain is almost interacting with it to understand how can I adopt some of the principles. And there is a concept called contagious depression that suggests that depression can spread within social groups.

4:09So when you hang around with people that are maybe demonstrating the signs of depression, your mirror neurons see that and it mirrors their reactions. so eventually it can have a similar impact on you. So understanding this idea of the social circle you belong to is key. You know, like lots of motivational speakers will often use that line that you are the sum of the five people you spend your most time with. I think it's often attributed to a guy called Jim Rohn. But actually the science validates it, that these mirror neurons of the people that you associate with most frequently do have an impact on your well-being, your attitude, your perspective of the world.

4:51So it's really useful to be able to identify when somebody is presenting themselves as a roadblock to where you want to get to, the ambitions that you have or the feelings that you want to experience, to be able to recognize it and therefore do something about it. So let's bring you a clip then focused around this topic. And I'm going to bring to the table James Blunt. this is what he shared with us about having to deal with negative critical people i remember with my wife now wife when when i was on a graham norton show and and we were watching the feedback online watch the show and watch the feedback and the negativity online was so big and i'm trying to chat this girl up and then think i better not show her this negative uh um negativity alcohol saw her through it and she actually clouded her judgment she is my wife but But I think also the way I've got over it is to put things in perspective.

5:49And as I say, I call that kind of behavior very childish. At school, it's a different thing. They're children. And so children don't know any better. To be in an adult industry and then to be that way, you think, wow, how immature. But also, whilst I might have dealt with what I've had a lot of negativity, the positivity way outweighed it. You know, incredibly so. If I'm playing, I'm on a world tour. You know, I said two and a half years on my first. I haven't stopped touring, in fact. And I've been playing to, you know, to 8 ,000 to 20 ,000 people every night in arenas. And you look out at these queues of people and you can look at your phone and you can find some negative stuff.

6:29And as I say, Gordon Smart stuff in the sun. If, you know, you can find it if you want to. But if you look out the window and see them queuing, you should kind of say, hey, these people have given their time. They bought tickets. They put much more effort in. They bought tickets and they've travelled and they're queuing up and if it's in Britain, they're queuing in the rain. So I think the negativity is far outweighed by the positivity and I feel grateful for them. See, but that's an interesting point, James, because there's plenty of research on this that says the brain is wired to go to the negative.

6:58Absolutely. So you can get 100 positive comments, but it's the one comment that is disparaging, that sticks with you. So how have you learned to override that? Well, I suppose what I've learned to do is laugh at myself for doing so. And that's why with responding to a negative tweet, that's why my response is often laughing at me as much as it is to the other person. Because I'm crazy for going on there and looking for it. It is a madness. And that's why I think something like social media, which is anti-social, our lives would be much better to put it down and speak to normal people. Because face to face, we're probably kinder.

7:32Noel Gallagher's never said anything unkind to my face. He just always does it to your back when he's trying to flog music. A great clip there from James Blunt. And at this point, I would like to mention one of our listeners, a lady called Caroline, who actually wrote a beautiful letter to Damien and myself after listening to that conversation with James Blunt. And again, the whole thing comes down to negativity and how we deal with it. And Caroline said in her letter that as I listened and learned to James Blunt, I began to reflect on what effect negativity has had on me. And I was left knowing that if I'd have lived a life like James's, it would have been huge.

8:07In fact, I would have fallen at the first hurdle, the first hint of rejection, the first negative comment, and I would have given up. I have an astonishing ability to be flawed by any slight rejection or perceived rejection. However, having listened to James Blunt, she says, I've made some discoveries. I've discovered that I've now spent my entire life relying on external validation and assurance from others. I've never had the ability to be confident in myself and to trust myself. The problem with relying on external reassurance is that when it comes, you are on a high, but when it wears off you're left with your own negative self-talk and guess what then comes the low but first of all caroline can i just say thank you to you for writing to us but also huge thanks to james blunt because him sharing that story of the criticism that he faced whilst at the same time seeing cues of thousands of people lining up for his concerts is the very first reminder for all of us in this episode about dealing with negative people that they will always be there there will always be the person that tells you it can't be done the naysayer the critic the drain the pessimist it's up to us to find inside ourselves the strength and the power to keep on moving forwards i wonder damien if you don't mind showing whether you've ever experienced this kind of thing maybe not to the extent that james has but what you had and how you dealt with it yeah i mean well just before i do that jake there's two bits there that i just want to highlight that I took out of James's interview that we did.

9:33First of all, I love the fact that he actually gives the behavior a name. So he doesn't just talk about negativity, he talks about childishness. And that somehow reduces the emotional impact of it. And then secondly, he talks about training his brain to focus on the positivities. And I think there are two ways that we can all use and adopt in our lives. But how have I done it? Yeah, I'm not on social media a lot, because I've tried to role model better behavior on that to my children. But when we first started the podcast, there'd be occasionally people that would be abusive or unpleasant about what we were doing.

10:12Occasionally? I know, I know. I know you're better than me at dealing with this. But it was sometimes where I felt they crossed the line and made it personal. That rather than just criticizing the interview or what we were doing, they'd cross the line and make it personal. and there was one guy that chose to suggest that the foundation that's been set up, that we were using it for fraudulent means and embezzling funds. So I felt that it was... Well, I just felt it was really offensive. So he was hiding behind an anonymous aggregator account and it took me about half a day of digging around. I went onto a company's house, found out where this guy lived, then subsequently found out where he worked he was quite a senior manager in quite a well-regarded business and I managed to get his email address and just wrote to him I wasn't abusive I wasn't trying to be aggressive with him but I just wanted to ask well first of all point out that what he'd said was libelous it was illegal and it was untrue but I just wanted to ask him if he could explain his rationale of why he would write something like that that would try to stop young people getting help and support that would even cast a shadow of doubt that other supporters might then hesitate to come forward.

11:34And what was interesting was the guy didn't apologise, but he immediately, he came out within 10 minutes, deleted the message that he'd put and then just put, I find it very strange that you've chosen to approach me in this way. This is now the end of the matter. Wow. Wow, what a guy. yeah so I mean I'm not sharing this because I don't want to encourage other people to to sort of do this because I remember telling you about it and you said listen mate don't like you need to just tune it out but I found I find it really hard when I think people are crossing a line like some of it goes back to you know each other like we didn't grow up on social media so if I wanted to make that kind of insinuation about somebody, I'd either really have to feel strongly about it and accept the consequences that I'm going to tell them this and accept that I might get a punch in the mouth or there might be a confrontation.

12:30Whereas it seems to sort of leave me feeling a bit aggrieved that people feel they can make these kinds of insinuations and then hide behind the anonymity of the internet that that's why I don't feel I'm well equipped for this modern world of social media. So I've just decided to remove myself from the conversation rather than put myself in a position of having to deal with that kind of unpleasantness. Well, I think removing yourself from the conversation sometimes is the best thing you can do. You know, I, as you know, I was pretty badly bullied at secondary school, you know, year seven and year eight, and eventually left and went to a new school for year nine.

13:09So I would say that, you know, all too often we feel that we have to keep moving forwards. You know, if we're in a difficult relationship or we're in a challenging place. It's a bit like, you know, if you're reading a book that you hate, right? And you're really not getting much out of the book, you might as well put the book down. Don't feel you need to get to the end of a book that is not serving you, right? And I feel like that often when you're in a place or with a person that it just isn't serving you. Don't feel the need to carry on. I'm kind of, I'm okay with the fact that I walked away.

13:35And, you know, some people would criticize that and go, oh, you quit school. Oh, you let the bullies win, you walked and you changed schools, you left. But I actually think it's fine to do that. And I think knowing when to quit is actually a superpower when it comes to changing negativity around us. And, you know, I lean and run away, you lean in and go for them, go for the jugular. Well, I know what you mean. And I think it's important what you did. Let's have a, let's have another clip from the podcast. What should we go for? Well, I really, really, really enjoyed this interview. It was so exciting when we got Dr.

14:09Adam Grant to come on. He's a professor of organizational psychology at Wharton University. But one of the best books of the last 10 years has been Givers and Takers, where he speaks about some people want to just give and they do so freely. Some people just want to take. And he talks about a really interesting middle ground. Let's listen to him. Coaches and critics are people that I've come to call disagreeable givers. So the first question is, if you think about the personality trait of agreeableness, disagreeableness, are people more on the agreeable side where they're warm, friendly, polite, Canadian?

14:50Or on the disagreeable side, are they more critical, skeptical, overrepresented among engineers and lawyers, and maybe a little more British than I am? That I think is important because we know that agreeable people often hesitate to dish out tough love. They're often afraid to hurt other people's feelings. They don't want to rock the boat. They're trying to be supportive and maintain harmony. And so I found that people who are disagreeable are much less likely to bite their tongues and more likely to tell me the truth. But their motives really matter too. So when I've studied the differences between givers and takers, a disagreeable taker is going to maybe criticize me for personal gain or to try to feel smart.

15:32A disagreeable giver is going to ask, can I criticize in a way that actually makes you better? And they're challenging you because they care about you and they want to help. And so what I've tried to do is I've tried to look at who are the people who gave me the criticism that I didn't want to hear in the moment, but I needed to hear in the long run. And those are the people who, even though they might not always be shielding my ego. They actually are investing in my growth and my performance over time. What are the tips that you'd share with us, how our listeners can play that role for others?

16:07Well, I think as an agreeable person who's worked hard to get better at this, I think the most important thing is to recognize that the effect of what you say always depends on how you say it. So one of my favorite experiments showed that you could say about 19 words to dramatically increase people's openness to criticism. And those 19 words are roughly, I'm giving you these comments because I have very high expectations and I'm confident that you're going to reach them. Disagreeable givers, I think is a really interesting area, Jake, because it stops us just putting people in these binary tones of either being energy sappers or energizers and says that some people can actually be giving you difficult feedback because they care about you.

16:49Do you remember that distinction that we've used ourselves when, and you're really good at doing this for me, is like being kind or being nice. If you're being nice, you choose to just let mistakes happen. If you're being kind, you might just pull me up and say, actually, maybe you could re-record that bit better or do it really well. And that to me is somebody that's being a disagreeable giver. And we all need people like that in our lives that are not just allowing the standards to be set, they're pushing us to set higher standards to do even better in our lives. So I think it's important we make a distinction when we talk about negative people, that not all people that are giving us difficult feedback are doing so for destructive means.

17:31You're absolutely right. And I think it comes back to that wonderful analogy of whether you're a thermostat or a thermometer. And if you go into a room as a thermostat, you're the person that changes the temperature. You're the person that has a conversation. And the truth is that we've met hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people in our lives. And we've realized that most people do go through life like a thermometer. They react to the temperature around them. They react to the standard around them. They accept the negative naysayers, critics that are around them. If people are tense, they get tense.

18:00If people are negative, they get negative. If people are critical, then they're critical. And they reflect the environment they're in. But honestly, high performers, Damian, they are thermostats. They go in a room and they set the temperature. They bring the energy. They bring the standard. They shift the mood. They improve the mindset. They are the standard bearer for everybody. And I think being a thermostat probably means leading with intention, which is exactly what Adam spoke about there. Being a disagreeable giver is about leading with intention, not reaction. It's deciding, I don't just reflect the vibe in this room.

18:33I don't just reflect what this person wants. I'm going to help to create it. So my advice for people listening to this, when you walk in a room, do you change the room or does the room change you? Because you have got the power to raise that standard and to be that thermostat. I think it's very powerful. Yeah, definitely. And I think we can all be disagreeable givers. I think part of the way we do that is we ask for permission. Do you remember when we spoke to Daniel Priestley, the entrepreneur on the podcast, who said that in his boardrooms, he asked for permission to engage. And once you ask for that permission, that's where you can deliver the feedback.

19:07So you don't just come in and assume that you can deliver being a disagreeable giver. Just sort of asking people, is this okay if I can offer you some feedback or some ideas on where I think you could improve on this? often there's nobody that would refuse such an enticing request but that's where we can all learn to play that role of being disagreeable givers that Adam's research proves the more people you have like that in your organisation the more high performing your team becomes very good final clip what should we go with should we go with the brilliant Dame Jessica Ennis-Hill who shares two people that came into her life competitors so one of them was somebody that tried to keep her where she was another one tried to lift her up i've taken a lot from those two moments definitely i think um you know coming into the heptathlon as a young heptathlete and watching carolina cluft she was the most incredible athlete so athletic and such a presence on the track but I always just remember how like you say gracious how respectful she was how yeah she just had time for everyone even me who you know I'd not really achieved anything she didn't have to give me the time of day at all and that moment where she you know had won I think it was maybe the world championships and she came and gave me a hug and she was like your time will come and she just had yeah just the most amazing like presence and that really stuck with me and then again yeah contrast with with Kelly very different personalities and yeah I think I found those moments quite frustrating when she kind of called me a tadpole um I think it's just unnecessary and it made me think actually you know as an athlete and one that's performing a little bit higher than someone else you you should be gracious you know you're having the success have your moment but don't belittle someone else's moment and that's one thing that I would never do what was the impact on you of her saying that because it's easy to say well it's just words but they can hurt can't they well it definitely motivated me did it yeah yeah and how did you turn it from I um one to the other I think that I kind of laughed it off at the time as you know you know whatever it's fine but deep down in a way it was kind of just like grinding on me a little bit and made me think actually no I'm gonna come out here and I'm gonna outperform you and show you that you know this is who I am I'm not a tadpole I'm coming to perform and you know I'm gonna rival you so it gave me like a new sense of motivation I thought it was very powerful for Jess to share that actually, Damien.

21:57I love the fact that she's taken that sort of the pain of that really. And it's ignited something in there where she wants to try and help other people who are in a situation that she was in and she lifts them up rather than pushes them down. I saw something on social media, actually. I'll just share this great quote with you. I think you'll like it. If you understood how frequently people coped by projecting, you would learn to take nothing personally. I think, isn't that lovely? It kind of, it's reframing it that this isn't about me. this isn't about Jess Ennis Hill this is about that person this is about the doubts and the fear that they're carrying because most negative comments are just reflections of their pain not reflections of our worth and I think insecure people project and hurt people lash out and that's probably what was happening in Jess's world you know what we had this recently like my son was out running and a group of lads drove past in a car and spat at him while he was running and when he came home he was a little bit upset about it and I was sort of thinking and it was my wife gave him that lovely way of framing it.

22:58She went, imagine what it must be like in their head. Imagine how horrible they must feel about themselves that they could see a 15-year-old boy jogging along and decide that your reaction is not to ignore them, not to shout encouragement, but to lean out of a car and spit towards them. And it is a reflection of what's going on in their world. And once we did that, we suddenly started actually feeling sorry for these people rather than getting angry or furious about it. And yeah, I think that's a really lovely quote that captures it. Absolutely. I'm sorry that happened to George. That's horrible.

23:33I think one final point I'd like to make before, if you don't mind, I just want to play an extra bonus clip for people, is that when we, and I don't think this applies in Jesse's case, right? But life is also full of people telling us what they believe to be the truth, right? And sometimes the truth is painful and sometimes the truth can be critical and negative. I think the thing with that is we're not saying disregard and ignore everything that anyone says to us about improving or getting better. I think you have to ask yourself the question, is there any truth in what someone has said to me?

24:01If there is, like learn from it and grow from it and improve. But if there isn't, as there wasn't in Jess's case, then that's when you toss it away. That's when you don't need to kind of wrench space in your head to something that isn't useful because, you know, not every opinion deserves a seat at the table, right? But there are times and there are moments in life where people's strong opinions, as painful as they might be, actually do also carry some value. Right, before we finish, Damien, can I just play one clip about how you can deal with people that you don't want in your life or in your organisation?

24:32Who's this one? This is Adrian Newey, and this is what he did when there was someone working in the Red Bull team who he thought was undermining the culture and wasn't taking things in the right direction. It is incredible. Have a listen. I felt that there were a few bad eggs in the team probably three or four, five not many out of an engineering workforce over those days, probably 150 or so and I just had the impression that they were saying yes to my face and running around and saying no to my back and causing getting various people to push in the opposite direction but kind of firing somebody or showing them a P45, if you got it wrong, is quite a big responsibility.

25:17So I didn't want to get it wrong. So I actually was a very good friend, family friend, that I'd known for a long time. She worked in the travel and hotel industry, but was just kind of losing her job and falling out of love with it. So I said, okay, would you like to come and work at Red Bull as a consultant three days a week and we won't admit we know each other. You just go underground, try to understand the business as a sort of undercover HR, super consultant, if you like, and then come back and see what you find and what you think. Because I just felt as hitting this brick wall. So she did exactly that and after a month or two, she came back and it was actually the same four or five people I thought.

26:07And so we unfortunately had to get rid of those people. But I tell you what, Culture changed overnight from that. So there you go. Adrian Newey telling us that he hired spies to get rid of people that he thought were negative. It's a great way to end the conversation. Damien, thank you ever so much, mate. I really enjoyed that as always. I love these chats, Jake. It's great just to dive back into the archive and just think about how they're impacting, not only on us, but how we can share it with listeners so they can take these habits and use them in their own life to go after high performance, however they choose to define it.

26:45Wonderful. Thanks for listening and we'll see you again soon.

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