How to Deal With People Who Don’t Believe in You

0:03Hi there, welcome along to today's episode of High Performance with myself and Damian Hughes. This is one of our regular get-togethers where we delve into some of the previous conversations we've had on the show. And we try and tackle a topic that we know is something that a lot of people struggle with. Today, how to deal with people who don't believe in you. So we're going to start today with a question, Damian. Think of the person in your life who doubted you the most. not someone who was like necessarily negative or draining, specifically someone who didn't believe that you were capable of what you were attempting.

0:36And I'd love to know what you did with that because in over 300, 400 conversations on this show, what we find is that the people who got the furthest are almost always the ones who were doubted the most. So if I talked to you about someone who doubted that you could do what you dreamed of doing, who would that person be? It was an old boss. So when I decided that I was going to leave the corporate world, I remember them sat down and sort of pointing out all the flaws and all the dangers and all the pitfalls. And most businesses struggle in the first year. I remember that conversation. And I actually, when I ended up lecturing on a master's course, it was often for young entrepreneurs that were setting off.

1:19And that conversation was the one that I used to draw on and speak to them and say that I'd ask them, if you're in a relationship what does your partner think of you setting up your own business and going off on this because that will be the biggest indicator on whether it'll be a throttle or a break and it's often not because they don't think you're capable it's because they love you and they don't want to see you hurt and they can see the dangers and so often they'll point out the pitfalls and the setbacks which can often be the inhibitor so it's an important distinction people that might or doubted you and not necessarily enemies, people in the shadows waiting for you to trip up and be gleeful.

1:59Sometimes it can be the people closest to you. Yeah, and I think so often it's their own self-doubt, their own fears being pushed onto you. Who's yours? Mine would be, I mean, I had an amazing, first of all, I would say the biggest thing that was a driver for my whole life was when I left my first job to go to London and to try and make it as a TV presenter, my boss at the time, and you know this, He said to me, never sit in the comfy chair. And I took that on and I still live with that today. But throughout my time then trying to make it as a broadcaster, I was regularly told. I mean, the biggest one was probably when I spoke with the head of talent for BBC Sport, the person responsible for hiring presenters to work for BBC Sport.

2:37We had a meeting and she leant across the table and said to me, you will never work for BBC Sport. Because I didn't fit the mold of the kind of people they were hiring at the time. But it was the never sit in the comfy chair mentality that meant I picked up the phone to a friend and I found another way. And I think this is the interesting thing and I know you're going to talk in a moment because you're interested in the kind of the two options we have available to us when we hear this negative self-talk. But can I just say before Damien dives in, please hit follow or subscribe if you don't already because almost everyone that enjoys high performance, they come to us for the lessons, the learnings.

3:10We love giving you this content for free but most people aren't subscribed to the show and it makes such a difference to us if you can do that. And in a moment, we're going to delve into the archive and hear from rugby lead legend Jamie Peacock and also former gang member Carl Loco. But first of all, the psychology on being doubted by other people. Yeah, so back in the 1970s, Albert Bandura, a psychologist, spoke about self-efficacy theory. So if you believe you've got high levels of self-efficacy, you believe that you can make things happen in your own life. Having low levels of it believes that you're almost powerless to act.

3:44And two of the most powerful ways that Bandura identified that you can increase your levels of self-efficacy are one, giving yourself plenty of evidence that you're capable. But the second one is telling yourself that you're capable as well. Now, the danger is that if somebody is telling you, you're not capable and you allow that to become your own narrative, the own voice in your head, and you allow their fears and doubts to start to be translated in your own mind that's where it almost like becomes a ceiling whereas if you're willing to sort of give yourself plenty of evidence to go but i've done difficult things in the past but i have gone out and been independent if i need to yes i have achieved things despite the odds then it can become a fuel but it's simply those two elements of whether you allow other people to tell you and whether you can find evidence yourself that counteracts it are the two ways in which you can get high levels of self-efficacy and give yourself that feeling of being in control.

4:46We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners.

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5:56and if you're listening to this now thinking well i'm the kind of person that has a lot of self-doubt and i'm the kind of person who can't deal with it unlike the people that join you on your podcast please let me say at this point that the people that we speak to on this show that have achieved incredible things haven't achieved those things because they don't have self-doubt or fear they've often been pushed towards those things because of the self-doubt because of the fear and the research on self-doubt actually shows is that it peaks in the moment before the action, almost never as loud at the destination as it actually is on the way there.

6:30And we're about to play you a story from Jamie Peacock, the rugby league legend. He's going to take us onto a bus that he was riding on and this is one of the most perfect illustrations of the fact that often the fear is the loudest before the thing actually happens. And he's going to tell us that the closer he got to the stadium, the louder the fear became. And the doubt didn't come from the people at Bradford Bulls, the fear came from what was happening inside. Have a listen. Even though I have had a successful rugby league career, you know, captain of my country, captain of England and Great Britain, I was probably never earmarked to do that kind of thing.

7:08I was never the greatest. I didn't have the most natural talent as a player. I played as a five-year-old all the way through to 16. And during that time, I was never picked for a Leeds City side, Yorkshire side or England side amateur never good enough 16 years old scouts come in not one scout interested in signing me okay which means obviously not your confidence you're self-aware enough to know I'm not the greatest player here uh will I ever make it professional probably not but I kept plugging away because I love playing rugby league I start to get watched by the Brafford Bulls so the Brafford Bulls scouts start to come down and watch me play from amateur club then they speak to my coach speak to my dad and they want me to come up and train for the first team for the day I'm thinking this is a huge challenge I'm not sure I'm good enough to do it easiest thing for me to do I think is just stay on the bus and normally I'll be all right I'll just do that I'll bottle it and that's what I did bottled it and stayed on the bus now stayed on it till it terminated Halifax I've had to get off at this point so what were you saying to yourself at that moment when it's gone past your stop.

8:12I think you're upset with yourself, angry, because you're taking the easy option. I've taken the easy option. There's two options. At that point, when I get to my bus stop outside Oslo Stadium, one is get off the bus, meet the challenge, go train with the first team. The other one is be cowardly and sit on the bus and let self-doubt get the better of you. I chose the second option. It makes me a bit hot flush now, thinking about it, actually, inside thinking about taking that easier option, but that's the one I took. And that's why I ended up, you know, in Halifax rather than Bradford, feeling embarrassed, feeling upset and thinking, what do I do next?

8:51Begin to think a lot about, you know, what I've done and, you know, the option I've taken. And if I get another chance, what do I need to do? There's some brilliant research that Jamie captures there, but research has been done by a Harvard psychologist called Alison Brooks that she studied elite performers and every elite performer has nerves. It's how they choose to frame it. So if you believe that nerves are a sign that you're not ready, you're unprepared, then it's a sign of fear. That impacts your performance, like what Jamie did on that first trip when he was going to his trial game. Whereas if you can reframe it and say, this is a sign that I'm getting ready, it's a sign of excitement for the opportunities to come.

9:36Alison Brooks research says your ability to perform becomes so much more enhanced. And that's a great example, Jamie's story there, of that second time convincing himself that he was perfectly ready and the nerves were not the break. These were the throttle to go out there and make an impact. So again, I'd encourage anyone listening to this, that reframe it, learn how to see your nerves. Every high performer has them, but just being able to give it a different name, a different title is a really effective way. You see, I think I was also guilty before we started this show of thinking that the people that go and do the scary thing have solved the fear first and then they go and do the scary thing.

10:18I had no understanding, and Jamie talks about it brilliantly there, you know, like I think a lot of people miss this. He didn't solve that doubt, did he, before he got off the bus the second time? he got off the bus whilst the doubt was still there. And I think people don't talk about this often enough, particularly for young people in our lives, that we often say we need to find some self-belief. Once you've got the self-belief, then you can go and attack the thing you've always dreamed of. Well, the belief doesn't have to come first. And how can the belief come first when there's no evidence?

10:46It's almost like the action has to come first. The action then leads to the evidence. So kind of trust yourself that doing the thing you've always dreamed of doing, whilst the doubt is still there doesn't mean that you're on the wrong path or you're doing the wrong thing. It's often the only way through. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Do you remember Tom Aspinall, the UFC heavyweight champion, talking about that, that he had the same perception that you've just described, Jake, that when he was a young fighter, he'd see all these superstars and he'd be thinking, when I learn to not feel fear, then I can get to the level of them.

11:19And he just realised that they did have the fear, they just weren't articulating it. So when he sat down with us and he said about, that when he goes into the octagon he said there's three people in there there's me my opponent and I'm bringing a whole wheelbarrow full of fear with me as well and if I can accept that and and make peace with it that's how he gets himself into the octagon to go on uh to go and do what he needs to do so cool I want to just play one other clip as well from from Jamie if I may because I think the other important thing to talk about here is that if you get your fear resolved by other people's belief they're kind of providing scaffolding around that fear if you can solve it yourself you're giving yourself a foundation so like jamie went on to have like an amazing career didn't he yeah absolutely yeah he captained bradford then he went to uh become a player in the all-conquering leeds rhinos team and then he became captain of the england rugby team and then we've got kawaloko i mean he's now one of the most respected voices on social media an incredible guy um talking about social reform none of them were believed in at the start and none of them got the self-belief from other people.

12:20So here's another clip from Jamie Peacock talking about what's going on inside. Inside me I'm thinking do you know what I have people around me who believe me. Clearly my dad does because he wants to give me another chance. The scouts do, the coaches do. But it's me who has to believe in this or it's me who's going to have to overcome this self-doubt. Take the difficult option, not the easy one and I'll give myself a chance of being a professional player and changed my life forever so come up with a kind of mantra, time to get off the bus, mantras are great for enforcing a mindset I catch the bus home, speak to my dad, they say they'll give you a chance the following week the following week I get on the bus but I keep telling myself time to get off the bus, just believe in yourself, time to get off the bus believe in yourself, get to my bus stop and I go train with the Bradford Bulls first team Again one of the other big factors that we're talking about here about overcoming people's doubts is understanding and tapping into the self-determination theory we spoke about this numerous times jake with uh richard um ryan and and edward deecy the two psychologists who identified that motivation is on a spectrum we have extrinsic motivation where we do things purely for reward and then we've got intrinsic motivation where we do things because it matters to you rather than seeking others approval and what all the evidence tells us is that intrinsic motivation is far more durable and leads to higher performance over a sustained period of time.

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17:20You've got no choice but to find it internally. and as we've said that is by far the fuel that burns for longest and brightest so a really good example of that is the brilliant carl loco when carl came on he spoke about how he'd been part of the gang culture in london where he grew up and how he'd learned to start asking himself slightly different questions ambition it's one of the main answers actually really so yeah absolutely ambition um so initially like when i was about nine years old i wanted to be an astronaut 10 a veterinary surgeon 11 um no 11 i wanted to be a forensic pathologist because my father was heavy into murder detective shows and then literally i always say about 12 and a half i wanted to be most notorious kind of street level gang member i mean coming from a community where those that are able to drive German cars and wear Italian clothes and go to tropical destinations are those that are doing it illegitimately.

18:22I mean, it did kind of put across the message that if you wanted to, you know, embody the finer thing and better yourself, that that was the vehicle to do so, you know, and like anything, you can either do it poorly or you can do it well, you know, so the aim is obviously always to do it well. We always end our interviews with just a few quick fire questions. The first one here is three non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you need to buy into? I've got one of my colleagues in the room so I might as well not lie just to go back. We want the choice. They want respect me. I say every day when we go into like, I've kind of toned it down because I've broken record, but I say everyone must conduct themselves as old rich white men.

19:07Every response we have, every action we make, every self-dreaming, even old rich white I mean complete privilege. Yeah I mean I love that conversation we had with Carl I think the one thing that sort of jarred me a bit only because you see in life from a perspective that we could never understand is that he said that when he tells young black entrepreneurs now he said walk into a room with the confidence of being an old rich white man yeah because he believes that young poor black men don't get the opportunities that old rich white men get. And so that's, and that's a very interesting take, isn't it?

19:44Because it's a reminder that that was where he was going to find the self-belief that got him into those rooms to kind of put that mask on and pretend he was someone that he wasn't. And I think that is, it's probably also worth talking about because I think sometimes when we have these conversations about self-belief and going for the thing, we feel like it all has to be real. Do you know what I I mean, sometimes your belief doesn't have to be real. Like you can employ a variety of incredible tricks to almost make your brain think, oh, maybe this is okay. I mean, should I just chuck in another clip that just sort of sprung to mind?

20:17Do you remember we had Mel Robbins on and she spoke about this idea of the five-second rule? I mean, she spoke about the high-five habit, which you weren't fully on board with, but also this kind of five-second rule about just taking five seconds to gather yourself and go and do the thing that you need to do, no matter how simple it is. Let me play the clip and then I'll talk about why I think it's important. Here is Mel Robbins from episode 83. I know the secret to high performance. It's not expecting to feel motivated. It's realizing that there will always be resistance. There will always be fear.

20:53There will always be a moment of anxiety, particularly in those moments when you're doing something new or you're uncertain about how it's going to go. And the secret is always just pushing through that temporary moment. It was April of 2020. I woke up. You don't even need to know the backstory. And I just felt overwhelmed by my life. I felt defeated. I felt like the list of stuff that was on my shoulders between the business I was running, the employees that I have, the people I take care of, the kids that my husband and I have that were in breakdown, just everything was weighing on me. And I know we all know that feeling.

21:31You wake up, stare at the ceiling. You feel like the fear and the overwhelm is a gravity blanket pinning you to the bed. I use the five-second rule, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. I get out of bed. I always make my bed. That morning, I made it so I wouldn't crawl back into it. I then start dragging myself to the bathroom. I'm standing in the bathroom in my underwear, brushing my teeth like every other morning. and all of a sudden, you guys, I catch a glimpse of my reflection in the mirror. And I think, oh my God, you look like hell. And the woman I saw standing in the mirror did. She looked exhausted. She looked tired.

22:16She looked stressed. I actually felt sad for her. and then out of habit i started picking her apart the dark circles under her eyes the saggy neck one boob is hanging lower than the other and then of course once you start picking yourself apart your thoughts only go more negative so then i start like thinking about the day ahead and it wasn't optimistic it was like why did i get up so late and i got eight minutes before the zoom call starts and shit there's a dog and he's why i haven't even walked the dog yet i did not respond to those text messages. So now I'm like doing the beat down. And here's the interesting thing.

22:52If either one of you guys had walked into the bathroom that morning, I would have spun on a dime. I would have been like, Damien, Jake, oh, come on, guys. Yes, this sucks. Yeah, this is hard right now. Yeah, you don't deserve this. But you know what? If anybody can figure it out, you can. Come on. Come on. You got this. Get your ass back out there. suck it up. Like I would have been able to lift you up, but standing there alone in my bathroom and my underwear, I actually couldn't think of anything to say what turned you into a cynic. You were not born that way. And so what I'm here to tell you, and I'm standing not only on my own experience, but on the experience now of hundreds of thousands of people and the validation of the world's leading scientists oh my goodness episode 83 that's like that's a long time ago but the reason why that's important for the whole self-doubt conversation is that what she's really saying there is if you want to be a high performer it's not always about being ready to do it it's not about feeling like you're in the right place yeah it's a it's just about doing it but almost mo but almost more importantly than anything else doing it when you don't feel like it doing it when you don't think you can, doing it when you're wrapped with self-doubt.

24:08And I say this often to people, if you can still step forwards when every part of your body is telling you to step backwards, it's actually about so much more than just stepping forwards in that moment. You're building a body of evidence that you can do hard things. Because life gets very hard very quickly without us realizing, you know, a phone call that blindsides us all. If you haven't built a body of evidence that you still do difficult things in the face of adversity often those phone calls come or those moments come and you don't believe you have the tools to deal with it and that really can be derailing so i almost think this whole idea i mean we've called this episode how to deal with people who don't believe in you what this episode has kind of become is how to deal with yourself when you don't believe in yourself right because actually does it fucking matter if other people don't believe in you like actually we've probably got to the point where we realize it doesn't it's about how you deal with that so it's about you believing in yourself and if we can create a group of people who just do hard things when they don't have the belief well then when something hard comes their way that they're not expecting they know they can deal with it again if we circle all the way back to our first guest we listened to jerry peacock i remember years ago sat with him and he was telling me about um he divides his day up into easy and hard decisions and i said what do you mean by that and he went well he said i'm want to go out for a run regardless as um as an athlete he said i i will go and do my road work he said but an easy decision is i can put my airpods in and listen to music as i do it the hard decision is i have to listen to my own thoughts instead and he had a great line he said nobody's playing the rocky music for me when i'm in the middle of a tough moment on a rugby field i've got to it the only thing that's there is me and my own thoughts so the hard decision is to go and do that and then again do what you say build up that evidence that bank of evidence that says I can do this even when times are really tough well we're now going to have a quick chat with someone live on the podcast who is going to share with us her thoughts on what we've just discussed because Claire is a high performance listener and you guys at home are often saying why don't you just hear from the audience why don't you get people that listen to the show onto the show well for the next couple of minutes we're going to do just that we're going to welcome Claire to the show find out what she makes of this episode Find out why she listens to High Performance and learn a bit more about her story.

26:28So time to welcome Claire. Well, Claire, welcome to High Performance. Thank you for having me. So you spent the day with us, listening to us recording. You just heard our conversation about doing the difficult thing when you don't have belief. Did that resonate with you? Yeah, I think it did, especially the bit around nerves. So for me, very much my professional career, I was involved in policing for 31 years. and one of the most nerve-wracking things you do is go to court and because you're on trial and all your decision-making and everything is being tested about what you've done through the lens of people who weren't there.

27:06And certainly, certainly you said, Damien, around taking that and channeling it in a positive way and certainly when I've talked to younger and service officers, it's all about the fact you get nerves means you care and it means something to you. And so certainly that conversation I've just listened to, listen to you debating that um that really resonated with me because it is it's it can be nerves can make you feel like you're not worthy enough you can't do things but actually if you turn it around and make it more positive it means it's because you want to do well you you want to make it work you you want to make it count and whatever it works for that so i think that is something i definitely learned over the years i wouldn't necessarily say i knew that when i was younger that's for certain very good and are there any episodes of high performance that you called on when you were working within the police force?

27:56Yeah, so I'm a bit of a, I like to listen to things. So, and I like to, I'm a bit of a magpie. I like to take bits that I think is going to resonate things either for myself or with people I've mentored, people I've coached over the years. I've transitioned into training and lecturing. So I like to find content, not in the traditional sense of content and things, but just stuff that I can start conversations with. and a massive rugby fan so I will listen to a lot of rugby podcasts and Johan van Grand being a big Bath fan just absolutely fascinated that conversation his thought process how he's turned that team around I just find the whole and any coaches really so you've a whole load and I can't remember her surname but Adam Peaty's coach Mel Marshall again amazing insights into how that works.

28:49And I've always found it very interesting how coaches can get so much out of athletes across the board. And of course, now we've seen a transition to business world into other things. But I just think how one coach can get something out of an individual that another coach maybe can't. And I find all of that really interesting and how the process is and how that works. So I really tend... Did you not... Vicky Patterson, did you not mention that? Yeah, that was... And I was sharing that with the reflections with the team. So during COVID, long days, obviously, working in central London. I mean, it was quite nice.

29:23I could get a seat on the tube. But looking for things that would distract from what was going on. And I have to say, I don't watch reality television. Never have done it. It's just not my thing, primarily because I don't have enough time to do that. But I listened to that episode, and I couldn't believe my response to that. It was so unexpected. And I'd only really known, I didn't know really about her. I didn't know anything about her and I try not to judge people, but I'd only sort of read things in the papers or heard sort of people talking about reality TV. I have to say, you know, not my thing.

29:55So not dismissive of it, but just the conversation, her journey. Again, it's a word I don't really like, but I can understand that. And it was just, I mean, that really, really has lasted to this point because that's got to be five years ago now, something like that. And I can still remember bits of it and snippets and things. And that for me, and what that did then is make me go and look at other episodes that I wouldn't necessarily have naturally sort of thought, oh, well, listen to that because I know that individual. So, yeah, it was, it was, that for me was a real insight. And I think to the benefit of what the podcast is all about, it's about keeping you curious, asking those questions, looking for different things, taking pieces that will resonate.

30:42not all of it will resonate some of it you'll go yeah I don't really yeah that's not for me that's that's not my bag but other bits where you get that insight put into a context that is relevant to you from somebody who has achieved quite a lot I think that's where the beauty of it which is why keeps me listening so if I was to ask you to sum up your version of high performance in 20 seconds or so what would you say consistency yeah transparency so you're never going to get it right all the time but if you can explain so and that goes a lot with and again background of policing your rationale for why you've done something.

31:13So I've made loads of rubbish decisions in my life, some really good ones, some not so good ones. But I've always had a reason for why I've done it. And if people can understand that, then I think that's really important. Well, look, thank you so much for joining us on the show. Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting. And as I say, the way that you say that this is what the show is about, it's about encouraging people to be curious. And I even love the fact that you say some of them you resonate with, some of them you don't. Like we always said there's no high-performance way of thinking.

31:41It's up to people like you to go, I love that and I'll take a bit of it. I really love that. I'll take all of it. And do you know what? I don't really buy into that. I'll ignore it. That is you creating your own bank of high performance lessons. So, Claire, thank you for your service in the police force. Thank you for your service to the high performance audience and for listening to our show. And we really appreciate it. We really enjoyed meeting you. Thank you for having us. Thanks, Claire. And thank you as well for listening to this latest episode of High Performance. Remember, please hit like and subscribe.

32:07And maybe you would love to tell us why this show matters to you and the things you've taken from it. We'd love to hear from you. Reach out to us across socials and we'll see you next time.

32:25Do you have an app idea you keep meaning to build someday? Well, someday just got a deadline. Ship-a-ton is back. The world's biggest mobile hackathon brought to you by Revenue Cap. It's simple. Launch a brand new app between August 1st and September 30th and compete for over$1 million in prizes. Win and your app could land on a billboard in Times Square, forever enshrined in app development glory. Join the fun at ShipATon.com. Hi, I'm Jack Ravici, Kramer host of The Best One Yet. At T-Boy, we're always talking about small decisions that can have an outsized impact. One of the simplest is staying hydrated.

33:03Whether I'm traveling, getting a workout in, or heading into a busy day, I keep Liquid IV on hand. It's clinically demonstrated to hydrate faster than water alone and contains three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink, plus eight vitamins and nutrients. It's an easy addition to your daily routine and helps support hydration when you need it most. Shop now at liquidiv.com. Liquid IV hydration that goes wherever life takes you. Thumbtack presents Tile Trouble. Every single time I use my sink, I make eye contact with the uneven grout on my kitchen backsplash. The crooked corners eye me and I'm haunted by more tiling questions than I thought possible.

33:40What kind of pro can fix a backsplash? Can I replace one cracked tile or should I replace them all? What? What if I just use Thumbtack? I can hire top-rated pros, read reviews, and compare prices with a tap. All on the app. Thumbtack knows homes. Download the app today.