How You Leave Says Everything — Salah, Trent, and the Art of the Exit

0:01Hi there, welcome along to High Performance. Myself and Damian Hughes here. Hey Damian. Hey Jake. And we're talking about one of the biggest football stories of the last few weeks. The fact that Mo Salah, a man who came into the Premier League and rewrote the rules in many ways, is leaving Liverpool. And why would we be talking about Mo Salah on this show? Well, the show is called High Performance and this man is the epitome of high performance. And if you don't agree, well, the statistics tell you the truth. Since joining Liverpool in 2017, Mo Salah has created the most chances in open play in the Premier League.

0:36He's appeared on 435 occasions for Liverpool across all competitions, so he's 23rd overall in the club's history. His total goal contributions in the Premier League for Liverpool is the most any player has for one club in the history of the division. He's scored 255 goals in all competitions. That puts him third behind only Ian Rush and Roger Hunt. And in September 2021, he reached a milestone of 100 league goals in just 151 games for Liverpool. That's also a club record. He's averaged a goal every 138 minutes playing for Liverpool. He also holds the Premier League record for the most games in which a player has registered a goal and an assist.

1:15He's also crucially for Liverpool fans. And I'm sorry about this, Damien. he's loved playing against Manchester United 16 goals scored against them just ahead of Tottenham Hotspur I mean as a Manchester United for a start as a Norwich fan and someone who presented Premier League football right Damien I was lucky enough to see Mo Salah at close quarters and didn't have to regularly see him scoring against my football team which was nice but as a Manchester United fan and also as someone who has spent his life really really interested in what high performance looks like how do you assess Mo Salah's time at Liverpool?

1:51Well thanks for bringing up the Manchester United reference there Jake but I actually think those stats only tell half the story as impressive as they are I think there's something what he symbolises to Liverpool I think his story of coming from a small village in Egypt where you know there's that famous legendary tale where he had to take a bus five hours each way just to arrive at training when he was growing up there You know, there's something about the journey that he's been on, both literally and metaphorically, you know, coming to Chelsea and being written off quite quickly and then reinventing himself in Italy before, as Ian Graham told us, they had to take a chance and persuade the club to sign him.

2:32So he's almost come in with that underdog spirit that for Liverpool, you know, they were going through that long league winning drought that lasted 30 years. He came in and sort of had a point to prove like the club did itself. And I think he sort of captures that the essence of what Liverpool fans love, his work ethic, his never say die spirit, his creativity. I think he captures so much more than just being a great goal scorer so I think the gap that he's going to leave for those fans is going to be pretty sizable I think that's really interesting Damien and can I tell you a really quick story would you mind?

3:11So I can't remember the year because I'm not very good at these things and it kind of all blends into one but I remember actually hosting Liverpool against Villarreal in I don't know whether it was the Champions League I think Gary Lineker I think this is the time when I was hosting the Europa League and Gary Lineker was hosting the Champions League. I think I could be wrong. But we went to an away game. And from memory, it was like late in the competition, like quarterfinals or something like that. And it was Liverpool against Villarreal. In fact, let me just get the details of this. I can get on the internet now.

3:45Okay, so this was 2022. Man, I thought it was so much earlier than that. So it was towards my time hosting football and Liverpool beat Villarreal 3-2 in Spain. And yeah, I'm right. It was the second leg of the semifinal. I remember after the game, getting the chance to interview Mo Salah. And one of the interesting things about that job was that I didn't have an awful lot of interaction with the players, right, Damien? Because at that time, we had the brilliant Des Kelly who did the sort of post-match interviews with the players. And then my job really was to turn up, do the studio stuff and leave.

4:21and sometimes a player or a manager would join us afterwards and I remember getting the opportunity to speak pitch side to Mo Salah I'm sure the interview's on YouTube or somewhere like that and I remember being so impressed by how eloquent he was how he wanted to praise his teammates and we were asking you know because I was doing high performance at that time so I wanted to know about his mentality and his hard work and honestly of all of the conversations that I had in my time at BT Sport, this stands out. And I spoke to a lot of people over 10 years of hosting football. But the memory of Mo Salah, not just being a great footballer and working hard, but being a really great guy.

5:05And I think in so many ways, Damien, the way that he's left Liverpool actually shows the quality of the person that he is. And I've covered a lot of departures over my career. So what is the difference between a player who just leaves and a player who exits well, I think it's all about collaboration. You know, obviously we know there's been issues, you know, over the last couple of seasons where it's looking like Mo Salah's going to leave. Is he not going to leave? Is there an issue with the club? Is he going to sign a new contract? But he has carried himself with class all the way through. And I think that sometimes we just see in football that we assume a player loves a team or loves a club.

5:46and then often they show that actually it is a career and they are there to earn money and support their families and they will just make the right move at the right time for them. And there's no doubt that that is the way the world is. We can't over-romanticise football, I don't think. I think as football fans, we often think that a player loves a club more than they do. But I actually think that in Mo Salah's case, there is such a deep connection between the football club, what the football club stands for, the fans, and him as a player, that he wanted to do this in the right way. And I think, you know, Liverpool actually as a football club also step up and they do these big moments kind of like really, really classily.

6:27I don't know whether there's much in psychology about the right way to leave Damien, which then sort of impacts, I guess, how we view someone's entire legacy. Well, that's a really interesting question, Jake. I sometimes think when it comes to how people leave of a game from behavioral economics called the ultimatum game. If you just give me a minute, I'll explain it. Let's imagine that you and our brilliant producer, Will, are playing the game and I give you£10 and you have to distribute it and Will has to receive it. Now, whatever denomination that you agree to distribute the money in, Will has the opportunity to either accept it and you both walk away with it, or if Will rejects it, you both walk away with nothing.

7:11Now, if you're being coldly logical, you should offer Will one pound out of the 10 that I've given you. And you walk away with nine, he walks away with one and you're both happy because you're both richer for the experience. The reality is though that Willard likely, like most people would, would turn it down and rather walk away with nothing than let you see profit, than see that you profited from something that wasn't, not behaving fairly. Whereas if we said, right, you and Will are both going to do a test and whoever scores highest on the test gets to distribute the money. What the evidence says is you could offer an unequal distribution of it afterwards because you've earned the right to.

7:50Now, I think when it comes to somebody like Mo Salah leaving, I think the fact that he's given nine years of incredible service, you mentioned those phenomenal starts at the start of our discussion. Most people can see that he's given everything for that nine years to Liverpool Football Club and therefore he's leaving with a certain amount of dignity and goodwill. And that often contrasts when we see that of other players that have left clubs, maybe where they've caused trouble or they've created a little bit, or they're leaving under a state of ignominy. People often feel bitter and angry about it because they don't think that they behave fairly.

8:29I think what we're seeing from Mo Salah here is there was that danger at Christmas when he came out and gave that interview about his relationship with Slott, that there was a danger that it might end in Ithman and people think that he was behaving unfairly. But I think the way that he's rescued it, he's turned it round. And let's give plenty of credit to Arnaz Slott and the club here as well for being willing enough to try and mend those bridges that looked like they had the potential to be burnt when he gave that interview at Ellen Road. I think there's something here about people can see that, you know, after the nine-year service, that this is the right time for him to move on.

9:05But why don't we rewind the clock and go back to when Salah first joined the club. We spoke to Ian Graham, the performance analyst, about the conversations that Herald did his arrival. The data would have informed the sort of clips that were shown, the strengths and weaknesses and so on. But those clips would come with a voiceover to say, Jürgen, you don't know this player in detail, So let me explain to you who this player is and why we think he's a good sign. And who would do that voiceover? That would be Michael Edwards, who is the sporting director and my boss. And so, you know, over the clips, it was like, this is the role he plays for Roma.

9:46He'd be a slightly different role for Liverpool. But you can see how the things he does at Roma would translate very easily to Liverpool. This is his history. This is who he is as a player. Jürgen's someone who loves a story of adversity. So the fact that Mo had failed, that was a positive to Jürgen when it would be a negative to lots of managers. And it's like, you know, he's gone to do this in Italy after a terrible experience at Chelsea. So you can paint that failure in a positive way to say, you know, he's got some grittiness and some determination to succeed. I think, Damien, in so many ways, we see a struggle or a failure and someone's career as a negative and a successful thing as a positive.

10:30I actually think there's an argument here that what we're seeing from Mo Salah is the benefit of going through a difficult and challenging time. Absolutely. As soon as you said that, the first image that popped into my mind was that of Usain Bolt when he told us that great line that you have to learn to lose before you can learn how to win. That came from his experiences of going to the Athens Olympics in 2004 as the world's fastest junior athlete and not being able to get out of the first round of the heats. What he learned from that was that he was surrounded by people that were facilitating and making excuses for him rather than holding him to account.

11:11And I think for Mo Salah to have gone through that tough time at Chelsea, you know, people don't know the backstory of him coming from Egypt necessarily because that's not as visible. But to have seen the way that he struggled there at Chelsea he wasn't given the opportunity. We've spoken to John Obi-Michel, who spoke about how harsh Mourinho had spoken to him when he was there at that stage. Maybe the mental and psychological maturity that he's been through at Chelsea and then going out to Italy and reproving himself again meant that when Liverpool got him, they got a more fully rounded person than what he was at Chelsea.

11:52I think there is something really powerful about that failure. I remember hearing Jack Welsh, the GE CEO, famous guy, Neutron Jack, who said that you should always look for blemishes and gaps in people's CVs because that's where the interesting stuff lies. If you've had this linear straight line pathway from an academy right the way through to your first team, you've learned a bit about people, but seeing how people respond to adversity is often a really good indicator of the kind of character that's coming into your dressing room. I also think it's important, Damien, to talk about the difference here between Trent Alexander-Arnold and Mo Salah.

12:34And look, obviously Trent grew up as a local guy, a Liverpool fan, dreamed of captaining the club, but then left on a free contract to join Real Madrid and was then booed at Anfield. You know, the fans painted the word rat over his mural. And obviously Mo Salah is a world away from that. you know getting a standing ovation for for the for what he's done for the club this comparison is super interesting Damien sort of break it down for me like what do you look at here and think Trent did wrong if anything or is this purely about how we tell the story do you think oh well I mean that was that was a fascinating experience wasn't it but I think it goes back to that ultimatum game example we spoke about there people felt there was something unfair about what Trenton did.

13:16He was one of their own. You know, that's what they famously said. I think the fact that he allowed his contract to run down so he could leave on a free, so the club got no financial benefit from developing him all those years. I think people just felt betrayed. But as fans, we were allowed to be betrayed. You know what I mean? It's an emotional game. So allowing words like betrayal is fine for fans. I think for players and for the leaders of the clubs, the chief execs and the decision makers, they're often a lot more pragmatic. I'm sure that behind the scenes, when I've spoken to players around Trent's decision, most people understand that it's a career for the guy and having the opportunity to go on to play for Real Madrid, to experience living in a different country and to be competing for European and Spanish trophies offered him something different.

14:12having won everything that there was to win at Liverpool. I mean, I've spoken to, you know, elite athletes from a wide range of sports and you'd be surprised how many of them have that sort of pragmatic view that, you know, you'll see their kids wearing the kit of the team that they play for when they move to another team. Their kids are then wearing the new team's kit. So they see it in far more pragmatic ways than what we do as fans. and that's fine, but I think that sometimes when we hear words like betrayal or people feeling that somebody's a Judas or a rat, that's not how it's perceived internally at these clubs and through teammates and decision makers.

14:55You know, my take on the whole Trent Alexander-Arnold thing is also about timing. I think that Liverpool fans know that the very best years of Mo Salah, they've had them at Liverpool. You know, whatever he goes on to do next, I don't think he will quite be the player. he won't deliver to the same level you know there's an argument that he was not going to go and join a direct rival of theirs whereas Trent was not just their guy but he was in his prime remains in his prime there was still more for him to do and obviously I think it's harder anyway for sort of being a local lad and leaving but again we have to remember that these these guys know so much more than us about this situation about what's going on like you know let me tell you about Michael Owen who obviously I worked with for years at BT Sport and I had the opinion of Michael like everyone else did that he just went to Real Madrid because he wanted some money then he went to Newcastle because he wanted some more money I then got the chance to chat with him and I'm telling you now one of the most thoughtful kind funny interesting people I've worked with right Damien in my football career I'm a huge fan of Michael and I've got so much time for him when he left Liverpool he wanted um he wanted to see you know what was life like outside Liverpool and I think that's also absolutely fun.

16:07We have to remember, right, these people are human beings, right? They have emotions like we do. They have dreams like we do. Just because they play for the club that we support, if they want to try something else, it doesn't mean they should be vilified. So Michael Owen decided to leave. But, you know, the conversation was that he would have a couple of years at Real Madrid and then come back to Liverpool. It would give him the chance to sort of scratch that itch of exploring and life is all about exploration. but then he got there his family were really homesick he wanted to go back to Liverpool and then he made it clear that he was ready to go back to Liverpool but Liverpool didn't come and offer the opportunity that Newcastle did in terms of to Real Madrid Newcastle came in and offered a load of money to Real Madrid this is my understanding of the situation anyway they offered a load of money to Real Madrid to buy Michael O and Liverpool didn't come and match it Liverpool so he couldn't go back to Liverpool which is what he wanted to do and then he's criticised forever for not going back there.

17:04And then you're no longer a Liverpool player, and you're no longer going to be a Real Madrid player. So you have to go somewhere. So you end up going to Newcastle. You then get horrendous injuries, despite the fact that actually, if you look at some of his early performances and numbers, he was playing brilliantly. So he then gets criticised by Newcastle fans. And then he goes to Manchester United, which again, he's not a Liverpool player at this point. He's just a footballer. And one of the biggest clubs in the world wants to give him an opportunity to play under the greatest manager the Premier League's ever seen in Sir Alex Ferguson so he goes and takes it so he ends up playing at Real Madrid Manchester United and Liverpool but interestingly at the end of his career he doesn't have a he doesn't have a football club that kind of he calls his own and that they call him their own and I think in some ways it's sad and it's a great lesson for a lot of modern footballers that at the end of your career feeling like you belong somewhere it's sometimes really valuable you don't have to have been as good or as successful or as trophy laden as some players but to have been a kind of a player linked to one football club can carry such value.

18:04Well, I actually think that's a really important point, Jake. And I've often wondered, say at my team, Manchester United, whether they use that as a selling point to players. You know, the speculation at the moment about Elliot Anderson potentially being signed from Nottingham Forest this summer. And I think part of the pitch, if I was involved in that, I'd be talking to him about, you can be revered at this club for years to come. You know, I would point to the examples of people still singing the name of Roy Keane, people still singing Paul Scholes' name. You know, these people have been retired for the last 20 years, and yet people still revere them.

18:44And you could be talking to them about, think of your hinterland long after you've retired. You could still have a career as a pundit, or, you know, you could still have Caché coming back to the club and being a significant figure in the history if you were to come in here. I think there's something really valuable about being able to talk to players about that longer lifespan by being associated with one specific club. I mean, what we're talking about today, I was going to talk there about leaving a club in the right way. I often think the best example I've ever seen of somebody leaving the club was the King himself, Eric Cantona, in 1997 when he stepped away from Manchester United, when he was still at 30 years of age and he was as close to his peak as you could imagine.

19:34I mean, that last season he'd sort of tailed off a little bit, but people still thought he was incredible and he walked out having won his fourth Premier League title in the five years he'd been at the club and left people wanting more. You know, people still sing his name at every game today, given the fact that he left people when he was at the peak of his profession. And I think there's something really powerful for that for any of us, whether it's elite sportsmen or whether it's the rest of us, about knowing when is the right time to walk away and when to leave. And I think leaving people wanting more is always a really effective lesson.

20:13Anyway, what else do you fancy talking about, Jake? A big name has returned to management. Tell us all about it. Well, you are, of course, talking about former England manager Roy Hodgson taking back over at Bristol City as interim until the end of the season. 78-year-old Roy going back to the club that he first joined in 1982, can you believe it? So 40-odd years earlier and he's coming back now. It's a brilliant example of a bloke that's just obviously passionate about what he does and loves being in that football environment that he can't let it go. and some people will criticise it and say, why don't you just go out to enjoy his retirement and look back on the success he's earned?

20:55But I actually quite admire the fact that he's still willing to get his boots on, get out there and get making a difference. I'll tell you about Roy. When I worked at West Bromwich Albion years ago, Roy had just left when I'd started doing some work, but the players absolutely loved him. They thought that his sessions were all about organisation and structure and discipline. And at West Brom at the time, they felt it was exactly what he needed. He was just drilling them relentlessly. And players said that after a couple of weeks, everybody just knew what they had to do. There was absolute clarity in terms of the messages that he was giving them.

21:34And I'm sure Bristol City, you know, there's eight weeks left of the season. I know they're not necessarily in relegation trouble, but be interesting to see the impact that he has in that relatively short amount of time. And also, like, I think sometimes we obsess over someone's age in a negative, not in a positive way. Roy Hodgson has almost 80 years of experience, 80 years of knowing what a player wants, 80 years of seeing success and failure, 80 years of not getting over emotional, 80 years of judging situations. You know, he began his career 44 years ago. He's never retired. and when he says he's excited I think that's something that we should be excited about like why can't someone who's 78 take charge of a football club I think that as we get older young is getting younger right well I think that's a lovely way of framing it Jake you know you could also say that he's had 80 years of making more mistakes than most people will so he's learned far more than most people will have forgotten you know what more importantly good luck to Roy and good luck to Bristol City as well I'd love the fact that he's still got the courage to get himself out there and look to make a difference.

22:41Hey, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to be talking about some of the things that have caught our eye this week.

22:50Hey, you're listening to High Performance, right, Damien? What have you spotted this week that's interesting? Well, I've been absolutely gripped by watching the World Indoor Athletics Championships. and apart from the brilliant Keeley Archkinson sort of dominating the 800 metres, it's her stable mate from the MLA Burn Running Club, Georgia Hunter-Bell, that I think is phenomenal. Her story of two years ago, she was working in telesales, you know, she sort of walked away from the sport of athletics, disillusioned, burnt out, sort of deciding that there was more to life and then she started linking up with Trevor Painter, who I know we've both met, Keeley's coach, who started coaching her from a distance over email, giving her ideas and training plans she could follow.

23:40And then she went to the Olympic Games, recorded an incredible time and decided that she was going to sort of step away from the corporate world and go back and give herself a go, leave no regrets on the table. And seeing her win the 1500 metres world indoor title was absolutely brilliant. is it's a good example sometimes of how you know we can get closely tied to our identity that if you believe that you're an athlete you know winning or losing has quite a quite a significant impact on how you see yourself whereas what Georgia seems to have done is seen herself as as an incredible person that just happens to enjoy athletics so she's been able to ride out the disappointments, the setbacks, the pitfalls, and yet now enjoy the high points as well.

24:31But she doesn't get too high, doesn't get too low, I imagine. And she's got that lovely rounded personality that means that whenever you hear her speaking, I just think she's phenomenal. I'd love to get her on the main podcast and explore that story in more detail. So anything that stands out for you, Jake? I would like to congratulate Kimi Antonelli, who's just won his second Grand Prix for Mercedes. ladies. And this is a really interesting thing, right, Damien? Is it a guy who came into the team and had struggles last year? He picks up his first win a couple of weeks ago in China. He goes and backs that up this week with a win in Japan.

25:04And it's really important to point out that he didn't have the greatest of starts. It looked like his opportunity to win the race was gone early on, but he drove brilliantly. He dug in, he pulled out a lead, he nailed some great overtakes. And it's so interesting how one win then unlocks another one. I think almost this psychological freedom. And it will be double interesting, right? Because his teammate, George Russell, who signed the new contract last year, and everyone thinks is like the team leader. He's now second in the driver's championship. He's now going to have to go to the next race.

25:35There's a couple of weeks break now because of the war in the Middle East, but he's going to have to go to the next race. And he's going to have to show that actually he's okay. Like he can deal with the pressure. He can go and win a Grand Prix. He can retake the lead in the driver's championship there was a proper scrap as well as that McLaren are back among the uh the fast teams in Formula One so on so many levels I was excited about Formula One this week um another thing I know that um Josh Kerr you thought was an interesting story this week Damien which was kind of cool yeah again going back to the World Athletics Championships uh seeing Josh Kerr sort of end up dominating the race and winning gold but it's more this fact that he's going after breaking the world mile record.

26:17You know, we all cast our mind back to Sir Roger Bannister first doing it in 1954 when he broke that four-minute mile record. And what happened after that, you know, it's just off a legend. It often gets quoted by motivational speakers how John Landy, the New Zealander, broke the world record just months after that. And then the record stumbled, I think, 18 times since Bannister first proved it was capable of doing it. And Josh Kerr's following in that lineage of people looking to push the very edges of human accomplishment. I think he's fantastic. I loved him during the last Olympics when he was talking up his rivalry with Ingebrigtsen.

27:02You know, he's a showman. And I think this is another example of a guy that deserves the spotlight shining on him. I'm excited to see how he's going to go. All right, nice. Listen, before we wrap up, I'm going to shout out my high performer of the week, and it is Kimi Antonelli. What about you, Damo? Well, I'm going to be a little bit different, Jake. On the weekend, I went to watch the comedian Justin Morehouse in concert, and one, he was very, very funny. If you get a chance to see him wherever you live, I'd heartily recommend it. But part of the reason is that he opened the show by coming and talking about the fact that he lost his adult son just before Christmas.

27:44He passed away in his sleep. And Justin sort of came out and sort of said, listen, I've had a horrendous time over the last few months and I don't want to talk about it, but I just want to be really clear that I'm choosing to do this because this is my purpose. This is what I feel I've been put on earth to do to make people laugh and connect people. So I'm choosing to be here tonight and I want us to really throw ourselves into it and have a great time. And even as I'm telling you now, it's sending like shivers down my spine to see a bloke sort of dealing with such grief and tragedy by reminding himself of why he's alive and then being willing to share that talent with the world.

28:24So he's definitely my High Performer of the Week. Love that. Look, Damien and I love just getting together, having these conversations, talking about some of the things that have gone on over the last couple of weeks. If you would like us to cover a topic, please reach out and let us know. you can hit us up on social media make sure wherever you're listening or watching these conversations you hit subscribe and we'll see you very soon bye

29:08Thank you.