Inside the Mind of Gazza: Paul Gascoigne on Trauma, Fame & the Man Nobody Knows

0:02People know poor Gaskin but Gazza no one knows. The things I've put myself through, I'm lucky to still be sitting here, I think. 30 days in rehab, I just sat in the room, paranoid to bits, afraid to do anything. 12 years of age, picking a dead body out of the coffin and kissing, cuddled and saying sorry, then putting them back down. Then I stayed in that room for a few days. Oof. So I'm going to be a professional footballer. He went, do you know what in a million makes it? I went, I'm going to be that one.

0:31Hi there, welcome along to High Performance, the show that delves into the minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet. We spent a fascinating, surreal, incredible day actually, down on the south coast of England, pool in Dorset. Yeah, well even more, to get even more granular, Jake, we went to a residential street in Pool, Dorset, where we happened to stumble upon the company of one of the greatest footballers that England has ever produced. Indeed, living in the spare bedroom of his agent on this street, the one and only Paul Gascoigne.

1:08Gaza! How excited are you? I feel a bit nervous actually. I just feel like I want to do his amazing life justice. I don't want us to do what a lot of other people have done which is just to focus on the chaotic moments in his life or the points where he'll know he's let himself down. I agree with you Jake. I think that too often we focus on the tragedy don't we? Rather than celebrate what he did achieve in spite of some of the challenges that he had. to understand how he did become the most famous man in Britain, celebrated as an iconic footballer. I think that story needs telling. How does he end up here?

1:42Very quiet residential street in Poole on the south coast of England. Darcy, yeah. How has Gazza ended up living here? Do these people know that Paul Gascoigne is their neighbour, you know? When you sit down and reflect on your career, there's obviously two ways you can look at it. You can either go, you know, there was some times where you fell off the rails a bit, you had your struggles, you had your sort of personal problems, or you can look at it and go, I played for England. Played for the club I supported as a boy. Most expensive signing going off to Italy. It was the most expensive going from Newcastle to Tottenham, most expensive going from Tottenham to Lazio, most expensive going from Lazio to Rangers, most from Rangers to Borla.

2:20So everywhere I went, it was the most expensive, you know? So when you're lying in bed at night, are you thinking, could have done a bit more? Or are you thinking, bloody hell, what a career I had like look at the things I did the things I did yeah exactly I mean I used to see the guys I used to wind the guys up look at that on the pitch today if you're tired just give us a ball and I'll keep a hold of it for five minutes something like that I'll say look can someone do well today because I'm sick of getting manned the match and having to go upstairs after the game and get pestered so I used to wind them up like that but yeah I don't think I let any managers down or the players or the fans you know if anybody I let down was myself like you know but you know the drinking side of it was more about when I finished playing if I'm having a good day you know I'll really make the most of it I really do if I'm having a bad day I'm just saying right just get you know get through it tomorrow won't be as bad hopefully you know how often is it a good day how often is it a bad day if I want to make it a bad day I'll go to the pub you know if I want to make it a good day I'll get the fly rod out fly fish and I'll do some other stuff you know tennis and all that so when the weather's nice there's lots I can do like you know and we were just asking each other like do the locals know that Gazza's living on this street oh yeah straight away and when I first arrived Bournemouth because only you know Bournemouth it's not really I wouldn't say such a footballing town so when I first arrived I was getting stopped on weekends for a nightmare if Bournemouth played at home it would play like Man United so the town would be full of Man United fans and is that hard for you because I imagine everyone wants to buy Gazza a drink right oh yeah how do you deal with that which is good Is it good?

3:57Yeah, it saves me money. No, I've had that all my life, you know. It's not the drinking as such, it's the consequences. You know, it's afterwards. It's like, oh, shit. What do you mean by that? You know, so I know if I'm in trouble and I look at my mobile and if I've got like 30 messages and 30 missed calls, I know I'm in trouble. I think, oh, shit. But I've been all right. Last year, it wasn't brilliant. I was off and on all, you know, I did like a couple of months and then like a three or four days at Pender. I'm better without it I went to a meeting the other night as well so that was alright To what?

4:31To the A meeting I went with a friend How often do you go to them? I used to go all the time but I haven't been for one for ages I just thought maybe start going to a field but they're alright they're homeless you get to make everybody get a little buzz Let's go back then I don't know 48, 50 years you're like 6, 7, 8 years old you're kicking a ball around up in Newcastle I would love to know when you first realised you played football different? Yeah, when I was seven, I knew then I was good. And then when I was 12, there was a penalty competition. I won that. I had over 360-odd kids. I was 14 in Newcastle, not running the door.

5:10And because Mum and Dad had worked so much, worked so hard to make money for us and that, I was 14. And I wrote a wife and I said, Mum and Dad, that's it. I said, when I'm 16, used to it, and I'm going to have to work ever again. I'll look after you. I'm going to be one of the best players in the world. I don't know what they were thinking. But then I went to school when I was 14. Hold on, you said that to them? Yeah, when I was 16, you're not going to have to work ever again in your life. So I went to school when I was 14. They were doing geography, mean geography. God, I mean, so I've got a pen and I'm just saying, Paul Gaskine, Paul Gaskine, Paul Gaskine.

5:44I went, hey, what are you doing? I said, I'm saying my autograph, sir. She said, what for? I said, I'm going to be a professional footballer. He went, do you know what in a million makes it? I went, now I'm going to be that one. And he went, yeah, and he kicked us out of the class. So I took my autographs with us. And what was funny is, like, after the World Cup 1990, you know what I did when I got back from Italy? I went straight to that school. And I know what classroom we worked in. There was a little window in this window. And I looked through it, and I tapped on it, and if I can remember me, he went, oh, I know.

6:14So I just went to the classroom. I went, never say that to any of these kids. Well, school erupted, because I just got back from the World Cup. The school erupted. Words got round. everyone just ran out of the classrooms me and him and then I left left the school and the next day I went back again caused more trouble and eventually the headmaster said I had to pull his in she said please stop coming in So how did you know that you were going to be the one in the million? I don't know I just was doing things some of the stuff I did I didn't know I did it and I'd have to say maybe watch it the replays or something and say how did I do that?

6:47So you weren't consciously thinking what you were going to do with the football? No I just knew straight away it's like when I speak to Ronnie Solomon at the snooker place when he's playing snooker he's actually thinking like six shots ahead of him he's six shots not the one there and I was the same when I played football I always thought like I knew three seconds before the ball arrived exactly where the players were and then I'd do the other side where I was more and I'd talk them to bits Roy Keane was the best when they said he was going to be the new kid on the block and I said new kid and I just talked to him all through the game and he said please shut up like I'd say I'm married I'm taking your wife out tonight I'm not married you are she's in the stands looking and he'd look up and he'd like can I stop it why were you doing that just I don't know I just I just loved playing football and entertaining people were you doing that as a young kid playing for the boys clubs like were you talking to a yeah non-stop non-stop yeah I remember I played against Robbie Savage he was having a go at us and I just started talking of him and I remember him and he played midfield the second half when we come out Robbie went on the right back and I looked at him I said come on Marcus he went no you talk too much even in the dressing four games I never got worried I just knew how good I was and I just all I had to do was just you know just get on the ball

8:09but when you was a kid though I'm really interested in that because we get lots of like young kids listening to this and want to go on achieve even a fraction well at 14 and I had like Southampton, Ipswich, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Burnley. So I had all them knocking on the doors like once the same for them. I was always wanting Newcastle. And what did your mum and dad do? Did they support you? Yeah, but at the time that I'd been arguing with mum and dad, I was in the Newcastle office to sign the contract, 16. And my mum was sitting one end of the table, my dad was sitting the other. And so I've signed the contract.

8:47and the secretary says if you remember one of your families is saying this I'll do it my mum no I'm his dad I'll sign it the two of them I said just both up sign it please yeah I laughed about that I just played with a smile on my face my first three games when I was like 17 and a bit I was Man United I got Manor Match Liverpool got Manor Match Tottenham Manor Match and scored two that was like my first two games and I remember going to my dad I said dad when are you going to come and watch us play he went you haven't made it yet son I'm thinking so you never came to your debut no no I never came to them he used to get buckled in but when I started at Newcastle when I was playing for the first team obviously couldn't I used to get on the bus or like whatever suit I could put on and I'd pay 10 pence and I'd be sitting with the fans they wouldn't know I would be playing I'm like I'm playing for an all these shortly so I get off the bus and walk up with the fans and I'll go into the dressing room play the game and then after the game go back to the bus stop pay me 10 pence and go back home I was on 25 quid a week I never mind playing against Liverpool and I'm on 25 quid a week and then my mum was on 30 quid and I found out mum how are you getting 30 quid and I get 25 I'm the one that's playing football I give you meals what beans on toast says God almighty but because my diet was like a bottle of Coca-Cola fish and chips and I packed the minstrels that was my diet and then 11 o 'clock at night I used to listen to that fame who's going to live forever now and i just put the bin bags on and go run 11 o 'clock at night did you sweating it out yeah just not just getting fit getting fitter and fitter and fitter and that's one thing about you that i think people don't realize the hard work because you know that idea of gaz as a joker gazer likes a drink gazer loves a party you can't have the career you had and played for the clubs you played for yeah exactly the graft the hard work yeah but 11 o 'clock when no one was about i just put the plus a bag on and just right i'll see his little dad mom dad I'd just run right all around Gator.

10:47Did it ever bother you that the opinion was you were a joker, but you were so much more than that? No, just because I knew how good I was, you know. So there wasn't really a problem. I could laugh and joke, you know, because I loved football, you know. And, you know, when you're getting your name shouted by the crowd and they're loving you and singing your name, you know, it's a great feeling. So I always want to say, oh, I watched that movie. I watched it a couple of times and we're all glad to entertain the crowd and win them over and I always thought of that you know I did get a few Balkans off the mountain to stop messing about but that's okay I think it's important for us though to tell the full story to the people that are watching this and I look at that time when you emerged into the Newcastle first team and that is the dream for so many young people and your life was just on the up at that point yeah it was flying but actually a few years before you'd been involved in a really big tragedy I just wonder how how that tragic moment that cost a life of a young friend of yours, combined with your explosion after that, was probably hard for you internally.

11:49Well, it was a bit of nightmare because I started getting there. After that happened, and I ran down, he died. I just had it on my lap. So what happened? Keith was my best mate. And we used to go to the Reggie Boys Club and his brother was 10. And his brother wanted to go and he said, she went, take Stephen with you. Who did? His mum? His mum. Take Stephen with you. And Keith went, no. I don't want to be, didn't want to be with your brothers fighting that. She went, I'm not going. And if he's going, so I went I'll take you and it was only about 10 minutes walking up the road and went to the shop and there was an ice cream van outside the shop and I says come on quick we're going to be late so he ran ahead of his it was only one yard and when he went past that ice cream van the car ahead of him attached to that he went about 30 yards wow and I was like oof and then he sat in the car attached to that so I ran down and I was talking to him and he had his head on my lap and his lips were moving I thought he was going to be alright but it wasn't And that was his last movement.

12:43I was stuck there with his head there for 20 minutes. Then I went to see him when he passed away. And all of a sudden, for some reason, I started ending up with, like, tics, like, making noise all the time. I had to, like, squeeze my eyes all the time. I banged my lip in that non-stop for years. I couldn't get rid of them. I went to see somebody. And then eventually I just had to talk about it. Eventually when I went to see someone, I just talked about it as if Stephen was there. And I was, like, talking to him. an empty chair and that I helped and all of a sudden the tics went away like you know so what did you say to Stephen well I went an empty chair I'm really sorry what happened you know I shouldn't have told you to run and then you know it's worse it had to be me but you know things happen for a you couldn't even say things for a reason but it was like you know I'm really sorry and I miss you and I was just talking and I just broke down crying which I hadn't really cried over to be fair and then I just started crying my eyes out for a while and then I got through it, like, you know.

13:46Did you blame yourself? I did at first, yeah. I went, oh, my God, if I hadn't have took him. It's always, if I hadn't have took him, you know. And what did, like, the adults say, like, Stephen's mum or your mum and dad? I was really close to them, like, you know. I was really close to them. Nothing really, they just tried to, I went round there and stayed, stayed round the house and then Stephen was upstairs and he's coughing in the house. And then Keith said, come on, let's go and see him. So I was like, oof. I went up and he's just picking him out. So obviously like 12 years old, he's picking a dead body out of the coffin and kissing, cuddled and saying sorry, and then putting him back down.

14:24And I stayed in that room for a few days. Oof. So it was a few sleepless nights. Yeah, yeah. It was horrific, like, you know, but... And when you look back on that now, Paul, do you think that helped you? I just, you know, I just say how easy it is for someone just to pass away, you know? And the things I've put myself through, I'm lucky to still be sitting here, I think. I just want to take you back to this period where your career is starting to fly. I just wonder whether it was difficult after what you'd gone through with the young boy for you to then be getting all this success, whether that was a hard thing for you to sort of...

14:58No, really, because I'd already... I thought I'd dealt with that. Like, you know, I was only like... When I actually started playing professional and succeeded in Newcastle, all that just went out of the way, you know? I stopped thinking about it. as this country in the football, you know. Newcastle thing, four-year contract. In my head, I'm thinking, wow, I'm getting 25 quid a week for four years. That's good. At least I'm getting some money coming in. Because normally you negotiate your contract. So this is Gazza wants to leave Newcastle because I got rid of the PWT and Chris Wall or whatever.

15:26And Jack John, he says, right then, Gaz, I've done your contract for you. I went, you have? Because I love Jack John. He went, I've done your contract. What do you mean you've done my contract? Well, you're saying it. You're saying the four-year contract. I said I want to sign four year I want to sign two year he went no you're saying the four year contract and I'm giving you 240 a week and I went it's not bad 240 but 120 a week I said what about the other 120 he says every time you play I'll give you the other 120 he was the man that gives me debut and it was so funny because he was like I used to sit next to me on a bench which is going on shortly and it was like five minutes before half time he said I'm putting you on at half time I went okay so I was getting excited I was getting excited and the fans started shouting, Charlton out, Charlton out.

16:14He went, Gatha, can you hear that? I went, yeah. He went, I don't need that. Tapped his own thing, said he'll have a good career. Honestly? He walked out. That was it. Told you he was quitting before anyone else knew? Yeah. At the halftime, we had the dressing room, the players, where's the gaffer? Wow. I went, he's left. He's not coming back. And why did you leave? I was amazed because I like... Well, they sell Peter Beards and Chris... That's from Newcastle Boyhood Club. Yeah, well, they sell Peter Beards and Chris Waddle and you want to play with the best and they were quality. So then it was like you all was finishing the bottom three.

16:49When you're playing against Man United but even though I got Man of Match I like Liverpool. They were the first club that come in for us. So I went, Dad, Kenny Daglish. He went, good lad. So I told Kenny Daglish for half an hour they put the food down. And my dad went, what did you say son? I went, Dad, I did not understand the fucking word I said. He went, you're an idiot. More than that. He said, more than that. I went, what am I going to do? He went, you fucked that up, him, you know. So the next squad was Adelsbergs. Why didn't you go to United? Tottenham rang up and I said, Dad, it's Tottenham.

17:20He went, don't the fuck off. You're saying for Man United. My dad said, I've got to say for Man United. I'm going to tell you, Dad, if you're saying for Tottenham, I'll give him 120 grand. Oh, hold on. Dad, if I say for Tottenham, I'm going to give you 120 grand. He went, what the fuck are you waiting for then, son? so he said what the fuck are you waiting for and I went okay but the next season when I signed for Tottenham the next season that's when I was first and brought on Beck's and Scholes he's brought Neville's Giggs brought all them through like you know but at that time they had like Neil Webb and Brian Robson in the midfield so I'm thinking but I got to play with Brian in the World Cup when Neil Webb got injured you know so I thought where am I going to play but when I went to leave Lacho it was so funny I thought right I'm going to leave Lazio and it was Chelsea, Leeds, Arsenal and Rangers in for us.

18:14So I thought I wouldn't have a start until I take it. So I ring Brian Robson up and now I'm leaving Lazio do you think Fergie will be interested in it? He went I don't know have a word with me, he's not with us now. I honestly shit myself and went oof. I froze. I went hello. He went what do you want? And I went, oh, God. I went, look, I'm going to leave him last year. Do you want to sign us? And he waited for a bit. And when I looked at him, OK, then he says, I've got Cantona. If he leaves, I'll sign you. If he stays, then obviously you play in his sort of position. Cantona has stayed. And I was quite like, OK.

18:50But it was funny because I said, I'm not saying my child. You're not saying for a better life. And when they said Rangers, I went, no, crap. And I was walking out, Dean was off store. And he went, Glasgow Rangers. And I stopped and I turned around and went, oh, I thought you said Queen's Park. I thought you meant Queen's Park Rangers. Yeah, get him over, yeah. So do you regret not signing for Man United when you went to Spurs? Sometimes I was thinking about it, but I had a great time with Tottenham. I got to play for England. I was getting a man of matches. We got to the cup final. Could have won the league.

19:20And I was buzzing then. Good bunch of lads. A couple of crazy ones like me. I had some good fun then. A great manager, Teddy Venables. When we talk about Gaza and England, what springs to mind for you? I'd be in here at home and Bob Robson says, go and get me a goal. Put me on. 20 minutes ago and I scored my first goal last week. It was incredible. I tried not to watch football because I still miss it so much. I think in some ways it's kind of sad that you find it hard to watch football. Yeah. Because you gave the sport so much and the sport gave you so much. Now, when I look back at it, I think, whoa, it's quite frightening.

19:57When I see some of the clips, how did I get through that? Lacho, when I signed for them, he's like, you're 30 ,000 at the airport. I'm not expecting that, you know? Next minute, you've got like 22 bodyguards around you. What interests me is that, Bobby Robson famously called you daft as a brush when you were 22. And yet, to go and be able to pick up Italian at the age of 24, 25, isn't somebody that's daft as a brush. Yeah, I know. It was funny because Terry Redman said, Lacho, who's Lacho? And he went Italian. And I went, Gaffa, I can't even speak English. I mean, fucking Italian, man. It doesn't happen by accident again.

20:31A bit like the rest of your career, there was this hard work that wasn't seen by people. Oh, yeah, I know. The amount of work I put in, training, you know, non-stop. Like last year, I'd like, sometimes I'd train twice a day, but I'd like do a bit myself, then train with them, then some in the afternoon, and train again with them, and then at night time. So sometimes I'd train five times a day. A lot of people don't take account of the fact that you've had to recover from some really difficult moments. I said, never going to play again. I'd come back then from the broken knee cap, It took nine months to come back from the Fibriantabia.

21:03And then I did the Strictly Come Dancing on Ice. The first show, I was two minutes in the rig, and I tried to do a spin, and I flipped up on my back, and I heard a crack. I went, oh, no. I broke my neck. So I had to open it up and put balls in my neck. I smashed it to eight, nine. I was a half a millimetre having been in a wheelchair for life. Wow. Wow. How much do you blame yourself for the recklessness? Daft things, yeah. The cup thing. I shouldn't have been in that position. when I did the challenge, when I did my ligaments. The one when I asked, I was just anger. Because I always remember Brian Robson, when I played my first game in England, he meant, hey guys, I'm cutting me in my career.

21:40He says, any of the challenges, leave them for me. Any of the headers, I'll take the cuts and all that. I wish I'd listened to him. 36 operations later, I should have listened to him. That Brian Robson example, like when I was reading about your career, it struck me that you often seem to respond best when you had like strong male figures in your life. Yeah, he was. Whether it was Jack Charlton, Robson, Terry Venables, whether it was Dino's off at Lazio. Those strong male figures seem to give you a platform to go and perform at your best. Yeah, oh, definitely. So what was it they did then? Just respect for them, you know?

22:14That they actually come up and just felt like they cared. You know, they cared. And it was like, they didn't want anything from us. They just wanted us to be happy and fucking go out and do the business, you know? Like that first time I ever met Bobby Robson, and he was like fucking world class. And now he's just come back from the World Cup or whatever. And I scored for the England B team. Come into the dressing room, come straight to me. And you, fatty, he says, one day you'll forget to play for my team, England, the big team. He says, when you get off their mouth spurs. I just laughed, OK, will do.

22:46Recklessness, though, in football is one thing. But in your personal life, I wonder how you reflect, you know, on things like the relationship with your ex-wife and your kids and stuff like that. I did a lot of things just off the cuff. Some of my regret. I'll think of something. I thought, no, no, I can't do that. And then if I have a couple of drinks or whatever, I'll go and do it. Like what? Like just daft things, like drive a bus down London High Street with 70 passengers singing. We're all going on some holiday. I've got 70 people singing it with us. I went, oh, I've got passengers. And I'm like, you know, rehab, I've never been for drugs ever.

23:20And I'm probably for a drink probably two, three times. the others were like I've been for Calpol I went to rehab for I couldn't get off Calpol Red Bull you couldn't get off Calpol because Calpol has no no no no no 0.1 % of alcohol so I thought if I have 20 bottles of it that's been like equivalent of a pint so I just and then I got bored from every chemist in Newcastle don't give them Calpol they'll say listen I've got three wives and nine kids I need Calpol so it was mad I went for Red Bull actually went once for no reason flew from Spain to Arizona just for a month just to have a break and I have everything perfect with this OCD When did you develop that trait of OCD?

24:01it was mainly after that the incident with Steve when he was 12 you know after they stopped all the twitching and then all of a sudden we're coming back and we fucking wanted everything perfect in the OCD I had treatment over it it was horrible that treatment I had to stand on every crack I had to go around the hotel room switching life switches off and on he texted us 13 times He called us 13 times a day. Oh, it was the hardest thing. He just said you've just got to work on the OCD. Like, you know, try not to touch things three times. Just do it at once. Because the people of the OCD, like Beckham, can have soft drinks in the same pit as food.

24:38Steams there and washes his hands 15 to 25 times a day. It's one of these things. And when I speak to people, it's like, if you don't do that ritual, I think something's going to happen bad to you. And do you think about your legacy of what people will say about you as a man and a footballer? Me, well, you know, when you get called National Treasure and then people still stop me all the time for signatures or selfies. The last time it was a serious reason, there was a guy. I was walking down the aisle and there was a guy coming and he's come up to us and he started crying. His eyes went on his knees, crying.

25:11And his kids, two kids, were staring at me as if I'd had a favour. I went, get up, man, the kids are crying. He went, but you're my hero. And he was really crying. and I eventually gave him a hug and then the kids were all right after that I'm like wow it's nice to see them and I say to my mates I don't call them fans because it's really nice of them because my dad years and years and years ago when I first made my debut against Liverpool I went home I said I got man of match he went right just remember where he come from and since then he says because you never know one day you might need these fans and he's spot on so for like since I was 17 to even now I don't turn down an autograph or a forwarder and everyone like Kazza can you remember that goal you scored against Scotland mate do you remember it I fucking scored of course I remember it was that your greatest goal for England it was the Scotland game when I said to the lads because I remember the celebration and the FA and I went right guy whoever scores because I was playing against my own teammates against them seven of them and I got abuse in that dressing room at Rangers for months we're going to stick ready up here and I said listen you've seen what I like when I play for Rangers guys but you've not seen more like when I play for England.

26:20I said to the guys going out, listen guys, whoever scores, do the dentist's chair. And obviously I scored, did the dentist's chair and then they squeezed the Lucas Aide. But that was a disappointment because they squeezed Lucas Aide and not gin. So I was a bit gutted, you know. The summer of 96 was your summer. Yeah. When we interviewed Gary Lineker, he said there's not, a day goes by where he doesn't think about the 1990 semi-final. I'm interested, how often do you go back and think about well the 1990 I didn't take a penalty as such and you know I was obviously devastated getting that card but you know I was more devastated because I had the best time of my life you know that's such a young age with great players but actually training every day in the sun enjoying myself fantastic you know and it's like wow this is the life and then when I come to the end I honestly thought my career was only 22 and a half and thank God my career is over with now I'm never going to play again that was in my mind and then when I got back home I was having a shardy with my dad and I said dad I'll see you later and it was 10 o 'clock at night and I went up to the park on my own where I used to play when I was 7 years of age and I started crying my eyes out thank god this is where I've just come from from here to the right hand and why did that affect you so much?

27:37incredible I just couldn't wait to get back playing again so I got the pre-season over and that season after that 91 I couldn't put a foot wrong I was going goals for 4-0 scoring every game in the FV Cup and that. It was just buzzing. You know, I just felt I just couldn't, I was untouchable. You know, I get a man of match all the time. And then, you know, obviously the goal, doing the dentist chair and that. Obviously the girl of Southgate hates it when I see it. Gareth, can I have a word with you? Well, I can't understand. I scored my penalty against Germany. I go to fucking rehab. She says, you missed your penalty.

28:13You get a 30 grand pizza advert in England, manager's job. What the fuck did I do wrong? don't tell anyone that guy's ass everyone knows he just laughed

28:26I wonder you know when the ball comes across before the penalties that's it I still think about that I kind of watch that you can't I think if that was Shearer or Linnega they would have scored that because their instinct is just you know but I'm thinking ahead and honestly when I seen it come across I thought the keeper was going to get a touch now if he got a touch of it it would have went behind us so I've just waited for that touch and I would have tapped it in I've had just kept on going forward it's not just the thing that could have scored that it's what goes through mine it's me celebration just a celebration I don't know what is it because it was golden gold wasn't it yeah the golden gold the game would have been over God almighty what a story that would have been and I remember like obviously you were for a time the most famous man in Britain possibly the most famous person in Europe well I have had the Pope bring me up the lad show go on Shane John Paul the man's house says Dean was lost because of this call fire tell me I'm training he said no there's a phone call you've got to take it I went tell me I'm fucking training he says it's important I said what the fuck is it then he went it's the Pope I picked up the phone and I went don't know why I just went hi Pope what do you want he went I want to meet you my dad's a Catholic and they were over and he signed his visit and I went dad you've got to go to the Vatican so we actually went to the Vatican and give us a couple of medals.

29:45There's pictures of my house, my dad going like that to the Pope. I said, Dad, what are you doing there? He said, I'm asking for some money. So my mum and dad got to meet the Pope. The Pope gave me dad a little Christopher and he loves that picture. When I told friends we were going to come and meet you, it's one of the very few times that they are so interested, like, what is Paul Gascoigne like? Yeah. Do you think people really understand you? No, there's no one. It's like, people know Paul Gascoigne, but Gaza, no one knows. You know, even me sometimes. I remember Walter Smith gave me three head tests and a scan to see what was wrong with this.

30:22There's something wrong with you. So he'd give us three, especially he says, what you're doing on the pitch is not normal. So who are we talking to right now? Are we talking to Paul Gascord or are we talking to Gazza? Serious stuff for Paul Gascord. If I get well up with Gazza, it's like the funny side of it. Because I noticed that when we talk about the serious stuff, the answers are shorter and then straight away there's a gag and there is a joke and there's a funny story. That's Gaza's side of it, yeah. That's Gaza, is it? Yeah. And why does Gaza need to step in at those moments? I just have to be, because I've spent a lot of years being down, like, you know, when I did the ligaments, then the kneecap, then the broken foot, I missed four years of football.

30:57You know, I would have got 100 caps, so I try and not get down, because the world's already enough down, you know, and I don't like it when I'm down, and that's sometimes when I can be really down. That's when I pick up a drink to cheer myself up. But I used to be a happy drunk, you know, and I ain't anymore. What are you like now? I'm a sad drunk. If I'm drunk, I don't go out and drink. I'll drink indoors. And how much has humour been almost a protective defence mechanism for you? I hide myself a little bit behind humour and that. But when I do these venues and go on stage, I don't really talk about football that much.

31:33I talk about all the crazy stuff I got up to. I like that because it's easy for me. Like those, I was brought up and engaged. I've got a brother, two sisters, a mum and dad. I started this. This is where I went to school. That's how some of the players, the venues, I can't do that. I've got to get straight in and get them laughing. Sure, but I also think there's something that, like, your incredible story of coming, like, growing up in Dunstan and the journey you've been on, I think people want to know the human behind it rather than the character of Chasm. Yeah, when I come to my script, I've got to when I start playing for England.

32:07There's been a few times where I've cried on stage and I'll start singing my name and that. and then gets them up. Because you miss on a Saturday, you know, entertaining people. I got such a buzz from it. I just get such a fucking buzz from it, you know, and you miss that. Some of the best memories of my childhood, I get emotional talking about it now, some of the best memories of my childhood were made by you. Yeah. So why are you carrying this sadness? I don't know, sometimes I do. You know, it's me. I put myself in that mood, which is stupid because there's loads I can do, you know. when we finish this and head off our separate ways I know people will say to us what sort of a bloke is Paul Gascoigne what would you like the answer to be fun loving guy caring I'd do anything for a challenge you know I'm fearless but then I also have the other side I can be emotional soft you know takes a lot for us to sorry it didn't take a lot for us to cry I keep a lot of stuff in you know some stuff I should share and some you get scared of sharing it with people you think oh god you know but I'm not frightened to say like I'm scared you know I ain't scared I'm not frightened to say that like I'm worried I don't think I'll ever grow up I don't think I'll ever grow up it's fucking which I don't mind like you know prior to what I've given a lot of people you know people don't know like it was nearly a million quid I don't think it was that much to ten different charities I told them keep it quiet I've done loads of stuff like that I think a lot of people that have been through what Paul's been through you know like your mate Jimmy selling stories to the press or people letting you down.

33:42I think a lot of people would have given up on humanity and it feels like Paul hasn't. No. You know, I think the time I give in is when I'm in a wooden box. Apart from that, I'll just keep on fighting on, you know. As long as I wake up in the morning and I'm still alive and, you know, looking forward to the day, then I'm good, you know. People think fame is really amazing, right? You know, honestly, it's the best feeling in the world. come from a nobody to fucking be mega famous. It's fantastic becoming famous but you know, once it's famous, you can't go anywhere else. The only story of it is fucking, they whack you right down, you know.

34:19When your phone was being hacked, what did that do to your relationships with friends and family? Because you must have assumed that they were selling stories, I'd imagine. Yeah, yeah. First of all, when it first happened, I thought it was mum and dad because they're the only ones I spoke to and they kept on coming out in the papers. and I didn't speak to them for three months and I went badly on the drink and that and I thought, God, my mum and dad's doing this and then eventually when the police says, look, your phone's getting hacked and when I found out, God, you know, my mum and dad was happy and then obviously I had to go around and apologise.

34:53My dad's sex in his for 11 days because he thought I was going nuts and every time I made a call to my dad, I said, Dad, how are you? And then we cut off and the next call to him would be perfect so they've obviously got the number of my dad's and then ready to record. If I sent a text, it'd go, it'd stop, obviously, and then it wouldn't go through, so the press looked at the text, written it all down. Next time, when I resend it, it goes straight through, so the boy read that, so that's how I knew. And he still deletes all his messages. Every time he gets a message, he'll delete it. I have to.

35:24If I send a message, I'll send it. Once it goes through, I delete. If I receive one, I read it and then delete. Because you've worried about people still. Yeah, just them repressing that, you know. Went 30 days in rehab and just sat in the room, paranoid to bits, afraid to do anything, afraid to eat food, untouched food in case I got spite. It made us that bad at getting your phone out. And then on the other side of it, I obviously took a few daft nude pictures of myself. I was like, fucking hell. It had me cock. It's a bit of who? It's a fuck nurse. I don't know who's got pictures of me not, but I think half of Britain.

36:04It's been really nice to meet you. Honestly, mate. And, you know, the things that you've done in your life, I think one of the keys for me was reading what your former teammates thought of you. Like, everyone that you played with talks about you improving the team dynamic, caring almost more about the team than you did about yourself. And I think that in life, how we make people around us feel is our legacy. And, you know, you did what you could for others. You know, I'm enjoying life. I can make it even better if I want to, you know. I just keep on working on myself really more than anything.

36:33We're all rooting for you. At the moment, I'm happy.

36:39You know what? I actually, I like doing this afterwards, just getting a cup of tea, sitting down and kind of just reflecting on what we've just done. Because I thought Paul was a fascinating guy and I'll be totally honest, for the first little bit of the interview, I was worried that we were just going to be hearing stories the whole time. We were never really going to get to know Paul Gascoigne and we'd only know Gazza. and I feel like he really opened up eventually I think there's a real classic case there of trust isn't there and I think quite understandably we've never met him before and I think he's been burnt by so many people that have used his trust when he's given it to them and chosen to abuse it so I sense the defences were up a bit and he uses that classic humour deflection if he feels anyone's getting close and I think we've got the Gaza classic story and then there was a moment where I think he started to let us in occasionally.

37:32I don't think he let us in all the way, but I think he let us in occasionally to see Paul rather than Gaza. Yeah, I almost think though that he let us in as far as he possibly can. I don't think that he's able to let people get any closer than that and actually you realise just what a vulnerable guy he is actually. Yes, yeah, definitely. And I think before I met him, I was reminded of that classic Tim Galway, the author of In A Game Of Tennis. has this great formula that says, performance is your potential minus distractions. And I think given his performance at times was world-class and elite as a footballer, so his potential was obviously there.

38:12Remember, we watched that footage of his youth coach in Newcastle saying, this guy's the best in the world. But I think what we got an insight to is how difficult these distractions have been for him, whether it's addictions, whether it's OCD, whether it's tragedy. and I think what I wanted to do was celebrate an incredible career that he's had in spite of all those challenges. Yeah. I just love the fact that he was happy to share with us that he really lives day to day. And I think it's a reminder that that's actually the way life is for a lot of people. I kind of got the impression that he's a guy that is walking on this tightrope and at the moment he's on the tightrope and he's okay.

38:52But the truth is that any moment he could fall off, the world can take advantage of that. You know, as he told us, there was that trauma of being involved in the death of a friend at a young age. And the link between trauma and addiction is clear. It's been researched and there's a lot of papers been published about that. And I think that it saddens me that so many people over the years have taken advantage of that. And it's all right, the world can be bloody cruel for some people and you do have to all of us have to build up our sort of shield and our coat of armour to deal with what the world throws at us, particularly when you live in a world as crazy as the one that Paul lived in.

39:29Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I think, like, even the nature of his relationship with his father, you know, that sort of tough love can be quite difficult for lots of us to experience as well. And I think that's why he either deflects it with humour or is incredibly generous, he gives people all the time. And the one message that I would take out of it is, if you were saying to Paul is, you are enough, just on your own you are enough you don't need to be gaza the clown you don't need to be paul the ever generous host you as your as yourself is more than enough and i think that's a powerful message for anyone watching this to remember for themselves yes that's so right and i think we could all think of the missteps and the moments we fail or the things where we didn't live up to our own expectations but look at what he did look at what he achieved look at the joy that he brought to people.

40:19You know, like I said to you at the beginning, it's very rare that I get sort of piqued by interviewing well-known people. But, you know, Paul Gascoigne gave me more joy as a footballer than anyone else ever has. You know, when he cried at the World Cup, the whole country cried along with him. When he was lauded after the World Cup, the whole country was loving that. And it's just a shame that he's had to learn the hard way that those things don't live forever. But I think we saw someone today who, at the moment, looks happy looks safe and I think maybe for Paul that's probably all we can wish for Yeah and I do I think the vulnerability that he shows naturally makes you warm to him and that's why I can only wish him absolute happiness and contentment in his own life Yeah It feels just like a privilege to have met Paul Gascoigne been in the house where he's living shown around his bedroom you know just given a real insight into who he is and what he does.

41:17Yeah. Mate, thanks ever so much. Privilege. Thank you, mate. As always, thanks for listening. Please, if you've taken something from this conversation, hit subscribe. And if you want to, please share with someone who needs to hear this conversation. I can't wait to see you next time on High Performance.

41:45Thank you.