James Milner: The Premier League’s Ultimate Pro on Lasting 22 Years at the Top

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1:51Jürgen was brilliant. He said whatever we do, we do it 100%. If we're training, we train 100%. If we play, we play 100%. and when we party, we party 100%. I gave Messi a bit the first game in the new camp. He's unbelievable what a player best I've played against. You know, you can't let the best have it their own way sometimes. I know I can't play three games in a week, but even now when the manager names the team and I'm not in the team, I'm annoyed. The day that I'm not annoyed from not being in a team, I think it's time to hang it up. That is the voice of James Milner and this is High Performance, the podcast that turns the lived experiences of the planet's high performers into life lessons for all of us.

2:27And I want to start this episode with a conversation in an ice bath. So it's pre-season at Liverpool. James is sitting with a younger player, someone with incredible talent, but also someone who is not applying himself the way that he should. So James just takes a moment, just a quiet challenge for that player to raise the standards and shift the mindset. And that changed everything. Because that's what this episode is about. How high standards are taught, how they're passed on, how they lived every single day. And James Milner is just finishing his 24th pre-season. This guy is closing in on the record for the most Premier League appearances of all time.

3:04And in this conversation, he shares exactly how he's done it. We talk about the discipline behind two decades at the top and the mindset that separates a short career from a lasting legacy. This is the story of James Milner and a masterclass in longevity at the top.

3:24One of the young lads at Liverpool who come through and amazing ability, a bit of a joker, great lad, but maybe didn't apply himself as much as he could, didn't do what he should all the time. And you just try and... I remember pre-season and we were in the ice baths and we had 10 minutes, 15 minutes talking to him and it was one of those where yeah, yeah, yeah and you feel he's listening but you know it's in one ear out the other and you think we're going to have to have that again and you get down the line and we have the conversation again and keep pushing him every little thing and it's tough because you see so many players are amazing and have the ability but don't realise the opportunity they have until it's gone and it's too late and they're 24, 25 and they're out of the game because they haven't embraced all the facilities they have everything and the kid at Liverpool is doing so well now and I'm delighted for him and you can see the character, how he's changed and he's kept that bubbliness and everything he's about but he's doing really well and his attitude's top notch and sometimes you just need to help him find that path or the right way to do that.

4:37Let's talk about your approach then. I'd love to get into some specifics of what you have done. Let's really sort of peel back the curtain if you're happy on how someone can have a 21 year top flight career and maintain their physical abilities. How deep did you go in trying to make yourself the very best you could be? Yeah, I tried to leave no stone unturned. I think early age, you know, I made a decision, obviously the alcohol thing's always brought up, but it's like, is that going to help me be a player? No, it's not, so I'm not going to do that and I don't have a problem with that. You know, there's always a right time for people to do it.

5:15I'm not against alcohol in any way or anything like that, but it was just a decision I felt was right for me that I think if that's going to give me an advantage or help me in any way, I'll do it. So I didn't do that early on. At what age? Well, I was 16. I mean, I'd have struggled at that point anyway because everyone in Leeds knew us if I'd have wanted to get a drink in the city centre. I think there was a story actually where there was a club and I think I'd scored for Leeds that Christmas. I think it was either the Boxing Day game or 28th or a nightclub. And someone said, oh, and this one's for James Milner who scored for Leeds in the Premier League today.

5:45And someone shouted, ah, I was in his class at school. and they're like, oh brilliant, well that means you're underage then, get out and kicked out. I don't know if it's churn up but that's the story. At that age though, it's easy to say, right, I'm not going to drink. It's much more difficult to not drink. Yeah, and I think that's one of the things there's so many times I've been nearly pressured into it but people trying to pressure you into it, oh go on, just have one and what difference will it make and things like that and I think that goes back to the big thing of sticking to your guns and the sacrifices you have to make to get to the top in anything and I think there's always going to be distractions and going to bed, even back to school and on a Friday night you're playing for the academy Saturday morning and your friends have gone out and doing whatever on a Friday night and your phone's ringing oh come out, come on, blah, blah, blah and you're in bed because you've got a game the next day it goes back to there and you have to be stubborn enough and single-minded enough to be different and not be popular at times and do what other people are doing whether it's drinking or going out and doing things like you have your goal.

6:48And if that helps me, I'm going to have to have that courage to be the odd one out at times. Courage is the right word as well, because I think when you're looking to achieve something great, there's a moment where you make the sacrifice, but the reward hasn't arrived yet. So there's almost this lonely period where you're not a professional footballer scoring goals every week, but you're also not out with your mates having a beer. How did you navigate that period? that period has probably come after for me i think because i made my debut so young i'd pretty much gone straight from school then i was on a under 19 tour i remember getting sent home from the under 19 tour after one game and they said you haven't done anything wrong were you just going home you're going to play a lot of football this year and i thought what's going on here have i done something wrong and they had the vision for me obviously to go into the first team and make that step and i did that and played first team football so i didn't really have that dead period but it was more after where I played that first season new manager came in wasn't really playing me went on loan for a month to Swindon and then managed to force my way in and like I said before about changing manager all the time went to three or four managers at Leeds and went to Newcastle changed manager so many times that was sort of the period for me where you're in and out of the team like the manager keeps changing and you know I'd done alright and then not quite was where I wanted to be and it's a tough period that's probably the period there where I look back and I think I could so easily have gone another way there if I didn't stick to my guns or I didn't keep pushing and it'd have been easy to be disheartened and moving away from home when I was 18 as well and moving up to Newcastle and living on my own there so I think that was probably the critical period for me of that where I had to stick to my guns and if a manager wasn't rating me all right I'm going to work even harder I'm going to push more I'm going to do what I can have you ever had a period in your career though where you are backing up a bad game with a bad game and it starts to erode your confidence and your willingness to get on the ball no I don't I don't think like that I think the most frustrating period in my career for me was when I felt like I was playing really well in training playing well in a game and I wasn't getting picked and that was the hardest thing I remember going home and getting upset about it I went home and cried to the missus and I was like it was just that frustration of I feel like I'm doing everything I go and knock on the manager's door what can I do to get in your team what reason am I not playing like you're doing everything well just keep doing what you're doing like I'd rather him say you're awful at this this and this go and improve that but that was never what I got and what period was this that was when I was at Newcastle and I felt like I was doing well when I was playing training and just wasn't getting picked in the team and that was probably like I said before that period where you're in between and yeah you feel like you're doing everything you can but and then you have to go again and keep that belief and keep keep doing it day in day out even though it hasn't worked and try and prove and and every day stand out and things like that but when it's like the goals or if you're doing a different sport you've got times or sometimes says oh this is you need to improve this technically it's different in football it's an opinion sport and you you're always got opinions whether it's fans whether it's managers players whatever it is you can try change those opinions but ultimately if the manager's the guy picking the team you can be playing the best football and if you're just not having you what can you do about that and I think that's obviously changing manager's the hardest thing but if you don't have a direct thing I need to go and work on this well where do you go from there so you have to look at yourself and how can I improve can I get stronger can I do bits like this what do I think will get me in the team and I think that's the hardest thing because you haven't got a direct thing where in a different sport it might be well I know my tee shots are letting me down so I'll go and work on driver.

10:38If the manager's picking the team, he's not picking you. So how did you recalibrate your own goals then? So you've got the external goal of getting in the team and playing well, but if that's almost been taken out of your control, what did you do to reset there then? I think because football moves so quickly, you get those opportunities in terms of someone gets injured or there's a suspension or the manager gets sacked and you have to make sure you're ready for that. and that is the thing about football things can change so quickly whether it's good things are going well or not so well you always have to be ready you're only two injuries away from being in the team regardless or a red card away from being in the team and that's the hardest period for play if you're not getting picked it's so easy to drop your standards it's so easy to alright I'm just going to go out with my mates a couple of nights a week because I know I'm not going to play anyway or I'm not going to do that gym session because I haven't been playing so what's the point it's very easy to fall into that.

11:35Did you ever? No. So if it's so easy to fall into that, why didn't you? Because I think the only way I know how to combat something is by working harder. Can I do more? Can I work harder? Can I push myself more? And it's almost like a head loss thing that I'm fuming. So I'm going to go out and punish myself. I'm going to go out and run on the pitch and I'm going to make myself hurt. I'm going to go and do my leg weights and that's what I need to do to feel better, to get rid of that tension or that disappointment of not playing or frustration of, you know, I dislike the manager today. Could use different words there, but yeah.

12:10Today is not my favourite person and I'm going to get rid of that energy by beasting myself, basically. Can we talk about when you joined Manchester City? You walked in at a time when they bought quite a few big-name players. I wonder whether that made it harder because it was like, wow, I'm one of a group of players there looking to sort of move this club forwards. or whether it was almost easy that you came in with you know Yaya Torre and a few other big names yeah I suppose there was probably pressure going there going to a team that you know you wanted to to achieve and I had the choice of another club who'd won a lot of stuff and I chose City because they hadn't won anything for such a long time and it was attractive to be part of something that starts a new period of success we could play guess the game of the other club er Chelsea what was it?

12:58there you go that makes it easier I like that you didn't guess yeah that's exactly what I was going to say I thought United why did you why would you have chosen City over Chelsea what was the thinking well exactly that I felt like it was something that they hadn't won anything and it was exciting and it was the same again when I went to Liverpool it was that same sort of feeling like yeah amazing history but they haven't won anything recently and how good would it be to start a new period of success and that was my thinking again and build something and build a new sort of winning era if you like so it's interesting that because I think most players would go who's won the most trophies recently I'll go and join a club where I know they win yeah that was just my thinking I think it was something that yeah that appealed to me you could see they were going somewhere and the harder decision was probably City to Liverpool because I could have stayed at City but again that was probably the braver decision in terms of you know Liverpool's a big pull as well but it wasn't the level it was you know It wasn't the highest level challenge for trophies necessarily when I went there.

14:02So that was probably a braver decision and along the same lines. But, you know, City was spending, they were spending a lot of money and you could see that it was a good chance to be successful. I hadn't won anything yet in my career. I think we lost, my last season at Villa, we lost in the League Cup final. So being close, but not won something and you want to win trophies ultimately. What was the echoes of what you said about when your dad had told you that you couldn't do something. It was almost that willingness to go and prove them wrong. Was there anything that featured in the decision-making there?

14:37Yeah, maybe. I think, like you say, maybe there was pressure in terms of all these players, the signing and spending a lot of money and they can buy who they want. So there's a bit of confidence that they can buy anyone and they've come after me. But also, you have to back yourself to go there and think amongst all these superstars. you have to prove yourself and show you belong at that level and that was a step and you had to go in there and all guns blazing straight away and that was probably again the same thing as you want to impose yourself on the pitch but maybe with a bit more personality off it than I had done earlier in my career you know when I was saying younger and you don't want to you know you had the likes of Patrick Vieira in that dressing room and people like that I still speak to Pat now when I see him I get on with him so well and he used to kick lumps out of me in training every time he went past him but it was a big personality dressing room.

15:27You had the likes of Nigel De Jong, Vinnie Company, Jolion Lescourt, Mika Richards, Joe Hart. And I fit into that group pretty well straight away. And it was, it was good fun. There was a lot of banter going on. You had to be on your toes. There was a lot of, in the, in the treatment room, it was a pretty brutal place. But yeah, I'd say at that point, I was confident in myself. I was confident that I could help and be a leader and, and be a big personality in the dressing room. And that probably gave me confidence again, And to be able to go do that in a dressing room full of big personalities, I think that was probably a next step for me.

15:58And what did you notice about the step up in quality and the things those players had done, the things those players had won? What was that? Oh, wow, okay, that's what it takes. Yeah, I think it was a step at that time because I got into the England squad around that time as well. So you're stepping up again in quality and the speed of play and people who had achieved things and again looking at them, what are they doing how do they deal with things what are the personalities like how can I help that people who had played in different countries and won trophies in different countries so all these things again it was another learning curve and yeah dealing with those different personalities because people are coming a lot of money there was a lot of egos in that dressing room as well and you know being part of that group and was a step in and finding your place within that I suppose as well That period of City's history is interesting because going into Manchester City at that time where they're newly minted with the owners coming in, they've not won anything for a long period of time.

17:03It was almost a bit of a scattershot approach to recruitment that was made there where they made some mistakes as well as made some great signings as well. So what was the kind of lessons that you saw there about recruiting the right people? Yeah, I think that's always a big one. And I think, like you say, every year it was the same. There was new faces coming in. And that was one thing that was a big battle for me, I think, because if I got left out of the team, there was certain players who would kick off and it'd be a problem for the team and problem for the manager. So they'd maybe get picked.

17:37And there was many times I probably would have been playing better, but they knew I wouldn't kick off or force. I'd still train hard. I might not be happy and I might go speak to the manager in the right way, but I wouldn't cause problems. and that affected me and every year it was the same they'd sign new players I'd go to the back of the queue I had to fight my way in got the odd game and then managed to fight my way into the team and play a lot of games from that period it always felt like it was a constant battle and that was my sort of feeling at the time but yeah I think like you say there was a lot of players coming in and it was a lot of good players put together and trying to shape the team in that way and every year there was players you knew there was going to be good players coming in again for big transfer fees and it all started again the next year finding the right way for the team to play with the players that have been brought in.

18:24Is that not quite exhausting though? Yeah. It was and I did find it hard for sure because I knew I had periods where I played really well and I played different anywhere for the team. You know, like the team always comes first and, you know, I had games where I played five, six positions in a game. I remember playing right wing, left wing, right back, left back. If someone went off injured then I'd go midfield or up front. I had a period where I played six games up front and that's you know I'm fine with that the team always comes first and I'll do what I can but it was one of those and I'd play every game in the the League Cup and then I got to the final and I got left out of the final and then it was Pellegrini at the time said to me after the final I was like you deserve to play so well what am I what am I meant to do with that like I don't know I wonder why someone would feel the need to say that well yeah so again that's how do you deal with that and and how did you work hard again I don't know that was it it was just like alright I'm going to push again and like you say it did get exhausting every year that you're the easy option to leave out and you go to the back of the queue and that was that period really for me It sounds like being low maintenance actually cost you in that period of your time so was there ever a period where you felt you should betray some of what had got you this far and start kicking off a little bit?

19:43I do believe that if I was like that at times I would have maybe played more but then on the flip side my versatility at times in my career has probably got me games where maybe I wouldn't have played at times as well because I could play different positions and do things in games so there's flip side I've no doubt that it probably has cost me but I would never change it I don't think it is the right way it doesn't there's a right way to be and conduct yourself and I mean that would ultimately mean I'm affecting my teammates if I'm sulking in training, kicking off and things like that and it is a team sport so the team always comes first regardless of anything else.

20:25But that's also you betraying yourself I think one of the standout themes of this conversation is whatever happens around you, huge success, difficult times, toxic dressing rooms, great dressing rooms, you stay true to yourself. yeah I think that that's important I think the same of any team but any individual I suppose you have your your values and what drives you and what pushes you and you you wouldn't want to change from that I think that's you you are who you are and and you have your beliefs and suppose if you change them then for me that's not the right thing to do I think obviously if you're going down the wrong path then you have to change self but I suppose if you believe it's the right way to be and you're fully invested in that why would you change the way you are what was the hardest moment at Manchester City for you I think leaving was a tough decision I think leaving was I think the start of every season was tough because new players come in like I said I had to fight my way back in to the team getting to finals and and helping the team get there and then you know not playing the final game but I think leaving was a tough decision for sure and I had just under two years left and we spoke to him and we were talking I wanted to stay and things like that and we got to him and said yeah we'll talk to you after the transfer window and that was August time or whatever and then I didn't hear anything until the March time and it got to that point and it was like the offer was probably less than what I was getting and things like that and you're thinking well every year is the same thing I'm back of the queue, is this something I want to do so at that point you're thinking not sure about this and I was homegrown you feel a bit taken for granted and it got into the next season and the closer that's my final season and the closer it got to the end other teams are coming on and then eventually spoke to the the owners and the Caldoon come on and had a great conversation with him he was brilliant and the offer got to a point which was you know where it should have been originally but the people I'd been speaking to before and it was like you know we do take you for granted a bit and And by the end, that was apparent.

22:34Leaving Man City is tough. You'd won two league titles close to, you knew you'd want to win then a European trophy and you think that's a chance. Just that decision to Liverpool coming in and little things like you deserve to play, comments like that, they stick with, moments like that, they stick with you. It just felt like for me that was the right decision even though it was a tough one. I also think it's a really important thing to talk about because football fans get shown 10 % of what happens, right? And then they have to kind of make the rest up because they haven't been given the full information.

23:11So I think for them to know that it wasn't just you wanting to leave the football club and there was other circumstances around it is important. Yeah, I mean, for sure, if they'd have offered me with 18 months left and offered at that point, I'd 100 % signed at that point. but when it got a bit longer and you're getting a bit lower and you think, well, do they really want me? Am I that much in their plans? Am I? And it went until it got to the point where it looked like there was a chance of me leaving and then people got involved higher up and it was full steam on and like, we really want to keep you here.

23:42We love you. But at that point, it had gone past the point where you think it's a bit of an afterthought here. It was tough to leave there. I love my five years there and even though the fans don't like me too much now for whatever reason. And it's easy to laugh at that and brush it off but when you've done what you did there that amazing Premier League win and many other things as well does that hurt? It doesn't hurt I think everyone's entitled to their opinion I think there's a narrative around that I've said things about the club which I never have there was a few false headlines and things that I'd apparently said after and I think people run with that and you go to a rival and you go to a rival and you become the biggest rivals you knock them out of a Champions League you go and win a Champions League trophy which they were desperate for before they do.

24:28So you generally see that. If I'd have gone and signed for a championship club, I'd get applauded out every time I go there. So it is football. Didn't they get annoyed by the lasso celebration when you scored against them? Well, the thing about that was they beat us in the League Cup final two days before. So the story around that was, I scored at the Etihad and never celebrated. I've gone to a new team and we used to joke, you're shocking at cards, you're an absolute cowboy. so I said next time someone scores they've got to do a lasso celebration so we play in the League Cup final lose the League Cup final to City devastating lads are devastated we play them in the league a few days later so it's literally three days after that game so score at Anfield obviously we've just lost a League Cup to them and I've got a decision there I'm thinking well my new teammates who we've just lost a League Cup to this team we're at Anfield do I do this celebration or not and in that split second I decide to do and it wasn't like I'm running around in front of the you know Adibayar-esque like running to the fans it was literally two steps muted and then that was it so it wasn't like rub the salt in it and obviously people have taken offence to that but that was basically the story behind it so I in that split second I felt for my new teammates after losing a cup final to these guys if I turn around and say well I can't I didn't know what sort of impact that had.

25:55So in that split second, that's the decision I made. And like I say, I felt it was pretty muted. And it's also when it's explained, it's totally understandable. Yeah, and if people have taken offence to that, I mean, I scored at the Etihad, I think, and a penalty scored and didn't celebrate. But yeah, it is what it is. Some more players to score against our ex-teams, you know. I've never said anything bad about it. I haven't got a reason to. They took me there. I feel like they made me a better player. I enjoyed my time there and won trophies there. and they've hurt me a lot more than I've hurt them I think with the league titles they've taken off us and things like that.

26:30Can I ask you something though that I think our listeners would be interested in for their own lives? There's something really powerful there about when you were talking about that contract negotiation with City how even if they couldn't recognise your value you recognised your own how do you go about doing that? Believing in yourself I think again weighing up your options what's my path where do you want to be and I'd like to think I've made the right decision every step of my career where I've had options and weighed it up and touch wood it's turned out alright but I think at that point you'd think well what happens if I leave this club like am I going to play at this level again will I win trophies is this my only chance to stay and win trophies length of time at a club like how do you react to that obviously it's easy to get stale in the same place and that mentality I remember speaking to Gail Clichy, I think it was, and he was saying I was at Arsenal for a certain amount of time.

27:24I got to that point where I was just there too long. So I'd been at City five years. That's the longest I'd been at any club and all these things. And I just felt like it was the right thing to do for me. And I'm proud of the fact that I never once wavered my commitment to City in that time. Like, contracts running down. If you get injured at that point, you're in deep stock. And I had a knee thing at that time where I was struggling. And there's no way I should have been playing, especially with no contract and I carried on playing the team needed me and I was playing and I always gave 100 % for the team and that was right that was into the stage where it was like in March of April and I was playing in games I was in agony and that was stupid for me really but I put the team first in terms of what it was and I felt like even though I feel like I've been hard done by by you I've signed a five year deal for this club and I'm going to give you absolutely everything for those five years until the day I finish and then I'm on my way and looking back it was a bit silly from that point of view but again I suppose that's going back to your core values and thinking you know that's the team comes before yourself really So you use the example when you were at Newcastle you went knocking on the manager's door asking what do I need to do did you do the same with Jürgen?

28:37Yeah always he'll tell you that we had a lot of conversations and stuff like that and we got on really well we had the odd disagreement at times but I think as long as you go into a manager and you put a clear argument ahead in front of you given the reasons why and it's done in a respectful way I don't think there's anything wrong with that and I'd like to think managers want that. They've always got the final say but surely as a manager you want a player to come and say and be unhappy at not playing and I think that's one of the big things for me. The moment that even now, I know I can't play three games in a week but even now when the manager and aim to the team and I'm not in the team I'm annoyed and the day that I'm not annoyed from not being in a team I think it's time to hang it up So what did you say to Jürgen?

29:25How did you sell your case for being a midfielder? I think at that time it was just like I mean I can't remember the exact conversations but I'd always just go in and say well why am I not playing? It was never anything personal with anyone else I would never ever say why is he playing ahead of me or I've done this that's not it's my Well, it's their situation. That's not me to comment on another player. He's got his own opinion on those players. I'm going to ask why I'm not in the team. And even if I believe I'm a better player than someone else, I give more. I don't think, one, that's fair to my teammate.

30:00And two, it is me. I'm the reason I'm going in. So it's like, why am I not in the team? What can I do better? And basically, that's it. And if there's something else, a situation that's gone on or something, you'll talk about that. and hopefully get an answer from the manager. How much would you think, right, what do I want to say? How do I want to say it? What do I want the outcome to be? Or was it much more emotional than that? I'm just going to burst in and blah, blah, blah. Once I burst into the manager's office a very long time ago and that's the only time I've ever done it. When was that?

30:31I knew you were going to ask that. I'll answer the first bit. The first bit was, if I go into a manager, I would think about how the conversation would go. So I'll say what I want to get out of it. I'll think how I put my argument across in the best way to give him reasons to why I'm justifying what I'm saying. And I'd want an answer ideally, but I think sometimes when you go for a manager, it's better to give him a heads up, you're going to see him. Because if you catch him on the hop, he maybe hasn't thought about it either. Whereas if I said to him before training, can I get you after training?

31:02He might start thinking, right, he's coming to see me about this and he might have a better answer for you rather than saying just something to get you out of his office. so I think that was always important the once where I burst into a manager's office was I was at Newcastle and they accepted a bid for me to go to Aston Villa on deadline day after I'd been on loan there so I went back to Newcastle went down to Villa offer had been accepted got their deadline day and Martin O 'Neill was manager and he said the plug's been pulled on it I started laughing I thought he was joking I didn't know him so I thought it was his personal I was like no they've changed their mind they're not doing it so I went all the way back up to Newcastle changed their mind one of their deals hadn't come through and I went back so I went back up there the manager was like never wanted you to go was the manager Glenroder right never wanted you to go really happy you're back you know it was a club's decision alright so my head's all over the place club didn't want me gone there club who did want me they've pulled the plug gone back right fine I'm ready to go I'm on it if you haven't done it let's get on with it That Saturday come, I think it was that Thursday, Wednesday or Thursday, the transfer window.

32:13So that Saturday come, I wasn't in the matchday squad. I wasn't even on the bench. And I went in there and said a few choice words. And I think that's the angriest I've ever been in my life, actually. I went into the players' lounge after and my now wife's dad was sat there and he says he'd never seen me like that. He didn't know what to say. And that was the one time where, and probably the only time where I got that angry and wasn't calculating what I was saying. and it was probably with good reason but that's never happened again and I always like to think I'm pretty calm and I have an argument and I know what I'm saying I know where the conversation's going and I've got a way of doing that but that was the one time and I was only, what was it, 20 at the time maybe And what kind of manager was Jürgen when a player wants to share their thoughts on his decisions?

33:04He was pretty good most of the time he was open maybe not at half time we had one time where he was saying sharing his thoughts and I was sharing mine and I remember him smashing his hands down on the time will you shut the fuck up but Jürgen was brilliant had a great relationship with him great man off the field as well supported our charity so much amazing manager but yeah I always felt like he most of the time was open and even if he didn't feel like in the conversation he gave you stuff back I felt like he thought about it afterwards and even if he didn't tell you that you maybe see with how he did things after or something like that I think I felt like he was good at taking it on board and he'd always he's the leader he makes the decision but if you've maybe put something in his head and it maybe helped then but I think he was pretty good at listening to things like that and I've seen him change a lot in the time with how did he set standards probably the easiest thing to say is he said whatever we do we do it 100 % if we train him we train 100 % if we play we play 100 % and one year the first year we played Watford away at Christmas I was injured I didn't go and we lost at Watford and we've come back and I'm going in thinking you know are we going to have the Christmas party or what the atmosphere is going to be because I haven't been in the dressing room I don't know what's been said or anything I go in and the manager said yeah we've had a crap result today but this is our Christmas party it's for the staff more than anything who work so hard all year round so we're not going to have faces on like I said before when we train we train 100 % when we play we play 100 % and when we party we party 100 % and I think that was the biggest thing like everything you did was absolutely 100 % at all times And he used that lovely phrase about turning doubters into believers Was there a moment for you when you went from knowing this guy off the television and following what he'd done in German football to really thinking this is a guy I'm going to follow because I think he's taking us somewhere I think just being part of the journey was like you're seeing it happen in front of your eyes the first year where he's inherited a team got to two finals and lost him how we reacted to that and then you know fighting changing the team bit by bit the players he wanted and the training and then the big moments of getting into Europe late in the season getting to a Champions League final it not happening and getting 97 points and the big one for me is I think losing in the Champions League final coming back the next year getting 97 points and not winning a league title is obviously obscene and then having a Champions League final after that I think that's the big point there that if we don't win that Champions League final would that team have been able to get over Champions League lost 97 points not winning the league losing another Champions League so I think that final was really big but there was never a moment really where I doubted us going into that final and obviously the semi-final against Barcelona was a big moment where you know we're losing and it comes in and says no team in the world really has a chance to overturn this but it's you and we do and I think that gave us the belief then that we could and the way the night happened and obviously winning the semi-final I think that took us on to then go and win the final I like the fact that you said you're going to come in and control the narrative of nobody thinks we can come back from this but I remember the footage of you getting stuck into Messi from early on like what was it that was going on there that gave you that belief rather than just false optimism yeah I think for me I was emotional after that game as well because it was like I said the thought and fear of coming out empty handed again of what a good team were because I mean the first game we didn't play bad lost 3-0 we went to Newcastle I think on the Saturday and scored late to win the game which kept us in the title hunt then City were drawing and then Vinnie Company sliced one in the top bin like last minute and that was night before and I've seen Vinny do that millions of times and it ended up in the hedge at Carrington when I was at City so I mean amazing golf and obviously an absolute balloon buster for us so we've gone in the next day and all those little things and the manager said does anyone want to say anything about last night nope right so that was put to bed straight away with one comment anyone want to say about last night no right done then we build up for the game it's a great bit of management that actually isn't it it was morning of the game we trained then we went to the hotel then before the game it was you know I don't think anyone else has a chance but because it's you you do so straight away it's like this guy believes in his Jesus and there was just a calmness about the game I remember the crowd setting the tempo like Suarez amazing player for Liverpool fans love him standing over the kickoff whistles boos straight away and it's like we might have loved you in the past but not tonight mate you're not one of us tonight and set the sort of tone get a corner first minute roll was as if we'd scored and just picked it off first goal but there was never a desperation yeah I think I gave Messi a bit the first game in the new camp he's unbelievable what a player best I've played against like so much respect for him but you know I don't think he cares for me too much but you know you can't let the best have it their own way sometimes and yeah you try and put him out of his stride Robbo did it at the start of the next game I think there was a moment where he was on the floor ruffled his hair and you ride that wave of Anfield and you can't you show respect but you have to like not make everything their own way and this is a Barcelona team with experienced players who've won some serious titles you're talking about so it's not an easy feat so everything you can do to try and make it uncomfortable for them you do and you know we got the first goal and then went in at half time and then we got the other goals and it was never a desperation it was just bit by bit and it grew and grew Robbo went off at half time injured so I've got a left back which you know with Messi on the field that's probably not the best position to be in either so that was something else but you know just the team how we managed to do it and then you know my memory at the end I think Hendo was struggling we were keeping it in the corner at the end and just hanging on and whistle went and Hendo slides towards the crowd and forgot he'd knackered his knee in the game and he nearly lost his knee in the turf and he's like what am I thinking but it was emotional because it felt like like I said to you if we hadn't have come out with anything that year that team would have struggled to bounce back from that and I think the fact we still I had that chance to achieve something that year.

39:35It was massive. And you also mentioned about the strength of relationships defines a good dressing room earlier. Is that something you do deliberately or does that just emerge given the amount of time you spend together? No, I think it's something we worked on and it's tough with the amount of games, but you try and do the social things together and things as a group, things with families as well and get the girls involved. So I think we tried to fit those in and early on we had a couple of trips in the January and we went to Dubai as a team and a lot of things like that and we had a team picture on a boat and it was up in the dressing room and those memories and things like that and I think that helped players settle it was pretty early on in Virgil's career actually I think it was the first two weeks at the club when we went there and a trip like that it's like pre-season when you're away together for a week you feel like you've been there a lot longer than you actually have because you're in together so I think you have to work at it and it's important but those relationships are key and early on and as well in that group we had the fines and we had a court case and we had a big inflatable dice and you had to roll it and things like that.

40:39How did that work out? We randomly drew who was the jury that day and I'd basically be running the court and arguing why someone should be fined and the jury would decide and someone would argue the case if they shouldn't be fined or not. What sort of misdemeanors are we talking about? Well, if they were late but they had a reason or flip-flops in the gym and there's a reason I had to do this and someone was arguing and you always got the people who argued non-stop and it was quite funny actually because Joel Matip is like one of the funniest guys now and he was in there and he was I don't think he'd really said too much of that to the point and he was on the jury and it was like right what do you think and he was like yeah double pay double and he was like and people's personalities came out straight away and it was it was a good togetherness thing and people I think that these little things just create that dressing room and enjoying other people's pain I think What was the role of the dice?

41:29So the dice was you could either pay your fine or you had different things. So one would be a double payment. One would get off with it. One would be a forfeit. So I remember, I think it was Bobby Firmino was on a Swiss ball trying to balance, trying to throw a tennis ball into a foam roller. And he had three attempts and if he got it and he didn't have to pay, like little things like that. Did you get it? No, did you? Yeah, little things like that. So I think all those things helped when you think about the journey now, helped the group become the group. We were joined by Sia Colisi the captain of the spring box and he said that what he tried to do was create a culture so that when you were in the middle of a game and it was full on and there was a lot happening and you looked left and right you didn't see your teammates you actually saw your brothers it's about fostering that kind of an atmosphere did it feel like a band of brothers at Liverpool?

42:19Yeah I think so and I think that's important for any successful team because in those moments where you know you need to win 4-0 or you get a man sent off and you're digging deep or you're hanging on for a win you know each other you're so close you know that you're gonna go that extra yard for each other you're gonna put your head into that challenge for each other you want to go that extra yard for your mate because you don't want to let him down and I think that massively it has to help doesn't it if you feel so close to the people you're on the pitch with as opposed to just your randomer I'm desperate to help him out I'm gonna run that 20 yards because I know he's getting toasted by the winger which was normally me I want someone to come and help me do you know what I mean and help me out and I think those relationships have to help you What is the standout memory of your time playing for Liverpool when you think back to those days where do you go?

43:11I think the Barcelona game is an obvious one and Dortmund I think those Anfield European nights on the field I'd say there the moments off the field I think just the people at the club had great relationships with the players and the staff and probably the parades. I think the parades when you've achieved what you wanted to and win a trophy, we're lucky to have a couple and you see people hanging off scaffolding, people hanging off lampposts, like just seas of people in the city centre. I mean, we had one with Calvin Harris on the bus and going down the main street in Liverpool and people everywhere and music blaring.

43:52It was like, they're the moments where you can enjoy what you've achieved together and, you know, we've achieved this and you see what it means to the fans of their club because ultimately it's their team, their club. They were there long before I was there and they'll be there long after me. I'm renting a shirt there, can I represent them? And add to my aim when I got there was can we add to this amazing history of the club? The league title was a big one because it had been so long since I've won the league title but for me that was always the one. I want to change that wall in the training ground where you walk in and it has the number under each trophy they'd won.

44:25I was desperate to change that and every time we did that, that was amazing. And finally on Liverpool, is there a Jurgen Klopp moment that you kind of reflect on as like that was true leadership, that kind of sums up what that guy did for us? Early on was probably when the first season and we lost the Carabao or the League Cup final, I can't remember what it sponsored was then, the League Cup final and the Europa League final and it was different to what we, you know, the English lads were sat in the corner. Like he wanted everyone down in the reception. I think Hendo told the story and, you know, we were like fuming, like don't want to be here, I want to go back to my room.

45:08And he was like, it's important, everyone's together. And he got us over and he wanted us all on the dance floor. And he'd come over three times. Come over, he's like, no. Come over second time and he come over third time. What was he saying? He wanted us to come over and what he wanted to do, he didn't know at this time, but he said, I want everyone on the dance floor was he dancing as well yeah he was having a dance at that time but he wanted us over to do what he did after that which I'll tell you and he was like he'd come over the third time he was like I'm your fucking manager get your ass over basically and we went over and we're like for fuck's sake we've gone over and he starts gives a speech and he was like basically saying this is the start of the journey basically look what we've achieved this year we've only just come in and we're on a start here look what we've achieved and what he envisioned after that and what happened but he was basically saying look what we've achieved day and we hadn't even started and then he had us all singing We Are Liverpool and like obviously he's had a couple of drinks a few of the others and I was like I don't drink so it's like obviously makes it a bit easier for them but then you see his vision after and again that was probably the moment where two finals didn't win either but he saw the bigger picture and he thought we hadn't even started here yet guys What did that do for you?

46:15I mean at the time you're thinking not sure it's probably more after that you realise and you're like at the time you're like God like it's all right, you've had a drink and that's why. But now you see and it was like, he wanted everyone to believe, he wanted everyone together. He wanted to say like, we are Liverpool, this is us, this is where we're going to go from here and we're together in the bad times and the tough times after you've lost a European final. We're together. It doesn't matter what happens, good, bad, indifferent. We're together at all times and that was the message. And you realise that going forward at the time, you're like still fuming, I've just lost a European final or whatever.

46:51but that's the message and you see it and you see the start of the next pre-season and the message is delivering and I think he sent a text message after that as well can't remember what it was but it was obviously something that said something to all the lads yeah the whole group and something like make sure you're ready because fasten your seatbelts it's on something along those lines you know what I mean regrets no not one not one I think that's that's something I don't really do I think I analyze everything think about decisions in the right way and and pull the trigger and that's my decision and I fully 100 % commit to it and if it is a mistake well how can I make it better or we've chosen this path that's it like it's pointless regretting regretting like what what you've done you've made that decision you've had time to think about and you've made that decision and sometimes things work out sometimes don't but how can I make the best of that decision I've made but you know it's amazing to see how well the England team have done and come so close to winning trophies since then.

47:56But I've never once felt envious or wish I was there or anything like that, which I think would be very easy to feel that, but I just never have. And I suppose that's a nice feeling that I feel like I've made the right decision and I've fully committed to it. So can I ask you one question that intrigues me about your story, this relentlessness? there's lots of people in your industry as well there's plenty of others that would get bored and they look for fads they look for new concepts and they'll jump on anything that looks bright and shiny that passes them and how do you avoid getting bored of following routine?

48:34I think goals is a big thing I think obviously like it starts when you're a young lad and I want to get in the first team and then you're in the first team and can I be a regular and then you move club or whatever and it's like right now I want to get in the England squad and get in the English squad and kind of win trophies and kind of stay there and then you get to an age where everyone's saying you're getting on a bit now and it's like alright well I'm going to prove you're wrong I'm going to so every interview I do now it's like what are you going to do when you retire and things like that and it's you're trying to kick that can down the road and it's like you play well now and it's like oh my god how's he doing that at his age and you play rubbish and he's over the hill like he's too old and that's the territory unfortunately but I think it's you know not proving people wrong but it's Every day you go out there, you want to be the best.

49:18If you're in pre-season, you want to push people further. I want to stand out in the right way and push myself and contribute as long as I can. And everyone you speak to say, you know, play as long as you can. And, you know, I get the odd niggle here and there now, and that's probably from pushing myself a bit too hard at times. But I just want to keep going as long as I can, really, and achieve everything you can. So is there fear? Is there doubt? is there a few questions about what comes next? How are you dealing with that? It comes in more even in a football in terms of if I'm injured, is this because I'm older or is it just because I've had injuries like this before anyway?

49:57Or at what point I know I'm going to drop off. What is a drop off? Does it mean that one day I get out of bed and I just can't move? Is it a gradual thing? And that's my mindset. It's always been when I was 27, 28, a fitness coach said, because I always run the most in training and things like that, you're going to have to take care of yourself here and drop off. And my mindset was, I don't agree with that. I think if I'm dropping off, I'd rather drop off from here to there instead of there to there. And that's what I've always tried to do. Now you're thinking about that in football, like what does that look like?

50:29Or am I still fine? Because I feel fine. And are my performances still the same level? And the thing you notice is it takes you longer to recover. That's probably the thing that you get when you're older and the nutrition and the ice baths and the cryo and things like that come even more important. And then the questions come, what are you going to do after? So even though I want to play as long as I can, then it's what do you do after? And I'm very understatement. I've done my coaching badges, but then you look at managers and they get three months to do a job and you think, well, do I want to do that?

50:59And then you think, well, how lucky I've been for the players I've played with, the managers I've worked under, the areas I've worked under, the experience I've gained, things I've learned. Is that a shame to come out of the game and not give it back. And then it's if you're in football, it's the same life again for your family. So I talked about family before and you've missed enough already and your schedule is always planned for you. And then you go into thinking, well, when you retire, you talk to other players and it's like, well, every day I've been told this is your training week, you're training Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Sunday, whatever you're here at this time when you finish or what you're training for or what you're going to do that day.

51:37And that's a big void to fill as well. so there's all these questions and I've thought about it as you can tell but I have no idea so and you have to enjoy life as well for a bit I think for sure it's very hard to have the intensity to go into something straight away without having that time out there's a certain lady and some kids at home that perhaps need a bit of time with their dad yeah and they've sacrificed so much which you know like you say people don't see the times where you're on holiday and you're leaving them and go running and you're travelling away with the team and you're coming home moody as hell because you've lost and that's the feeling that I definitely won't miss and one you can never get rid of, you lose a game and you don't really get rid of that until you've trained again and you've run around like an idiot and you've worked out like being left out of the team.

52:22It's that same thing when you lose a game. So yeah, the family put up with a lot and Mrs has been there from the very start so she's seen the whole journey. Have you enjoyed it? Yeah, 100%, yeah. I mean, you're doing something you enjoy every day and I think the things I've managed to experience, good, bad and indifferent, I've experienced pretty much everything you could hope to experience, you know. And won the lot domestically. Yes. Yeah, a couple of times. I love that. Sorry. Right, quick fire questions.

52:58The three non-negotiable behaviours that you and the people around you need to buy into. Hard work, commitment, and trust or respect. What's your biggest strength and your greatest weakness? My mindset or relentlessness is probably a strength, but maybe also a weakness. I think at times, like you say, overdoing it or pushing too hard to prove people wrong or not being able to switch off, I'd probably say that is a strength and a weakness. If you could go back to one moment in your life, where would you go and why? I say sporting life because you never want to get in trouble with the misses over the both of the kids they're obviously up there but it's hard to pick one so hard and I feel fortunate that I've got more that I could say but you can go back to my first goal at Ellen Road as a Leeds fan and coming through and scoring on the 28 I scored 26, 28 16 years old families there season ticket holders that was so special but then winning a trophy you know I like those games where you win a trophy and you're on a parade after I think They're probably the highlights, yeah.

54:07What's the best piece of advice you've ever received and why? Probably from my dad was one, so simple, but anything you practice on your right foot, practice on your left. Simple, but attention to detail and one that's probably been in there that long and is so important, I think. But yeah, that probably stands out from an early age. The final question is, what's your one golden rule for living a high-performance life? I think you have to fully commit. I think that's the biggest thing. Whatever you're doing, you have to be all in. If you're, whatever you're doing, whether you're training for a marathon, whether you're doing a job of a certain thing, whether you're trying to be a footballer, if you're in, you're in 100 % and that's probably the only thing you don't want to look back on.

54:55Could I have worked harder or could I have done a bit more or are you doing everything you can to be the best you are? and that's every part of your life that you're thinking about that and before kids come along on that there's no excuses like you think when you have kids you think what did I do all my time before but when you're a young guy and you're trying to make it in a sport or profession there's no excuse for every part of your life on the field, off the field doing more, doing extra fully commit to it because people say well I've done everything you can but that's why in a team sport you can compare yourself to your teammates and individuals it's very hard to think well I feel like I've had a good day he's worked there but you don't know if there's another golfer on the side of town who's done twice as much work here twice as many balls analyse more and I think that's the perfect place to finish because I think it sums up what has stood you in such good stead throughout your career and that is the incredible attention to detail finding your own limits surpassing them delivering on them every single day and I think sometimes it's unhelpful to sit and just say well natural talent got me to where I got to there's no doubt you have an incredible natural talent but I think you are a poster boy for focus, determination, consistency, self-belief.

56:10And I think it's really inspiring for people to hear your story. So thank you so much. Thanks for having me. It's really a privilege. The opposite of boring. Hey. That's a get it in there.

56:24Damien. Jake. You wouldn't have known when we were sitting here talking to someone that has won every single domestic trophy you can lay your hands on. It was an incredible story, but I think they're the virtues, they're the quiet virtues that we overlook at our peril because to be able to sustain a career as long and as successful as what James has done requires modesty, requires humility, requires the willingness to put the team above your own self-interest and they're the quiet virtues but actually they're the foundations of any successful team as well and you can see why he's been so in demand by so many elite coaches.

57:00And he also didn't, because again, he is so modest, he didn't really go to town on the deep, deep hard work and the lengths that he goes to to get to the top and stay there. He was telling me beforehand, he used to have or still does have epidurals every three months because they dull down the pain receptor in his legs. Normal people are not doing that. Yet he doesn't even feel the need to tell us on the podcast that's what he's doing because he's so humble and he's so modest. and I think that that is probably why he was such a brilliant team player and probably doesn't get the credit he deserves for the career that he's had so far.

57:35Yeah, well he'd said that didn't he that he felt that especially during that Manchester City period of his career where actually some of these virtues probably didn't help him you know they were bringing in bigger names more celebrated players for bigger salaries every year and he got relegated to the back of the queue he'd gradually quietly work his way back into the first team and then the season would start again and the whole pattern. So sometimes that can go against you but then when you're so clear as he was about his values of the sort of person he wanted to be and who he stood for I think that is why he maybe hasn't had the headlines but he's had the length and the respect in his career that he has.

58:17And I think it was also really good to actually put some clarity around those big moments in his life. I think Manchester City fans need to know that he was left a bit burned by a contract that took a long time to be offered and when it was initially offered the terms weren't great you know he has put meat on the bones around that lasso celebration that frustrated city fans so much he's explained in as great a detail as i've ever heard about how jrgen klopp first of all created and then sustained that winning mentality those mentality monsters at liverpool his mindset um is a huge reason why he's achieved what he has above and beyond his physical abilities.

58:55Yeah, and if we think of it in a full circle, his very first answer he gave was about high performance is at the stage and the age that you are, doing the best you can. And then his final answer about his golden rule was about going all in. Those two are not contradictory. So he gave the example, if you're going to run a marathon at 55, maybe your pace is going to be slower than you would have done it at 25, but you can still do the best marathon possible. for a 55-year-old. And I think that's the message that I'd want anyone listening to this to come away from, is that you might not have the talent of James Milner, you might not have the interest in football that James Milner obviously has, but whatever it is, wherever you are, you can still achieve your version of high performance by taking the lessons of going all in, looking at the minutiae of detail and behaving with the real humility to whatever your ambition or goal is.

59:53A massive thanks to James, not just for the career that he's built, but for the example that he continues to set and that he's just shared with you. I guess he reminds us all that high performance isn't about those big moments. It's about those small decisions that you make over and over again every single day. And if you found something valuable in this episode, please just hit follow on Apple or Spotify and share it with someone who you think would benefit from hearing it. And don't forget, you can get early access to every episode and exclusive content on the High Performance app. Thanks for joining us.

1:00:21We'll see you next time.

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