James Milner: Turning doubters into believers (E229)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance App. the classes that enable you to go after high performance on your terms. So go to the App Store, find High Performance, and download it now. Hi there, you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that unlocks the minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jake Humphrey, and alongside Professor Damien Hughes, we learn from the stories, successes, and struggles of our guests, allowing us all to explore, be challenged and to grow. Here's what's coming up today. I think the only way I know how to combat something is by working harder.

1:07Can I do more? Can I work harder? Can I push myself more? And it's almost like a head loss thing that I'm fuming, so I'm going to go out and punish myself. I'm going to go out and run on the pitch and I'm going to make myself hurt. I went home and cried to the missus and it was like, it was just that frustration of, I feel like I'm doing everything. I go and knock on the manager's door what can I do to get in your team what reason am I not playing even now I know I can't play three games in a week but even now when the manager names the team and I'm not in the team I'm annoyed and the day that I'm not annoyed from not being in a team I think it's time to hang it up coming back the next year getting 97 points and not winning a league title is obviously obscene and then having a Champions League final after that I think that's the big point there that if we don't win that Champions League final that team would have struggled to bounce back from that.

1:54And I think the fact we still had that chance to achieve something that year was massive. So welcome to high performance, the Brighton footballer, James Milner, the most experienced player currently playing in the Premier League. 627 appearances he's made at the time of recording this episode, which puts him third on the list of the highest appearance makers. 61 England caps. Not only that, he's won three Premier Leagues, two FA Cups, a League Cup, a Community Shield, or the Champions League. This guy's done it all. And in this conversation, of course, we're going to touch on the longevity and the behaviours that have helped him to be there for so long, but also the truth about some big moments that you've no doubt got an opinion on.

2:35But now you find out what really happened. The no-holds-barred truth about a career at the top level of football. I think you're going to love this. And if you want even more from James Milner, there's also an exclusive conversation about why he walked away from England and rejected Gareth Southgate's advances to return. If you want to hear that, just check out the High Performance app, which you can download right now from the App Store to hear even more from today's guest. But let's get straight to it and welcome James Milner to High Performance.

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4:54James, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. What is high performance in your eyes? I'd say obviously performing at a high level consistently over a period of time. I'd say most people would think of that at the highest level of whatever you're doing with that sport or whatever but I also think it could be high performance of somebody who if they're restricted by age someone who's 55 isn't going to be the fastest person on the planet and win the 100 metres but if they're performing at their highest level with what they have I think that's the same if they're preparing in the perfect way and doing everything they can and performing at a high level I'd probably say that's high performance as well So it was about people finding their own version of high performance.

5:36I'd say so, yeah. Whatever your target and your highest level is, you've done absolutely everything you can to achieve that preparation, recovery, or thinking about different ways to do it, learning off people, doing it consistently and leaving no stone unturned. I'd say that's high performance, yeah. So we're about a minute into the conversation. You said the word consistent twice. So I think we should start with consistency because to be a great footballer for a season or two is impressive. to have a 21-year Premier League career and over 600 appearances in the league is so rare. When you reflect on it now, and I know it's not finished and I'm sure you'll want to add many more appearances to that number, how do you think you've done it?

6:22I think a lot of hard work. I think a lot of work from other people. Setting you off on the right path early on, going right back to your parents and the values they instilled in you. What were they? I think obviously the hard work was always one. My dad was very good at knowing how to get the best out of me, so he always used to say, you're not going to make it, you don't work hard enough and little things like that. And he knew that I had the personality that, all right, I'm going to prove you wrong. And he knew that. He wasn't being horrible, how he said it or anything like that, but he knew that I'd be like, all right, I'll show you.

6:58And I think that's probably where it started. you know I always had to do school work before you went out and kicked a ball against the garage and things like that but those values of making sure you're doing everything you should be first and Leeds Academy you know a great tradition of bringing players through the values there and coming into being coached in the right way you know doing your jobs cleaning your boots doing everything you should be and then coming into a dressing room of players and learning what you can from them and watching those senior players, what do they do? Like, what do they do that I can do for myself?

7:36How do they deal with things? What are those players doing that they shouldn't be doing? Right, I need to be strong enough to not follow that path and just progress like that and always try and take the best you can from everybody you're watching or working with, managers, coaches, players. Listen to everything you can, I think, is important. As much information as you can and you don't have to take it all on board because ultimately you're steering your ship. There might be the odd time that you say, I don't agree with that, so I'm not going to do that. And you go against someone, but I think listening is a massive thing.

8:06And then, you know, just trying to keep pushing yourself from that point on going through the years, you know, keep trying to improve and trying to stay at that level, really. So when you talk about going into that dressing room, you're a young adolescent boy and the advice to anybody in that situation is keep your eyes open and your mouth shut. But what was it you were seeing that you feel you learnt then that you still are playing today in Brighton? I think it was a very different game then. I think the players and how lives were lived and the game was different, the amount of staff was there and things like that.

8:41But we had a group of players who'd done very well at Leeds and Champions League semi-final, successful players, great personalities, some lads who took me under the wing and looked after me, kept me away from the media, duty after games and made sure I didn't have to do that and little things like that and it gave you time to be yourself but it was at that time keep your mouth shut I didn't want to stand out off the field I wanted to keep my head down speak when spoken do my jobs don't attract attention in that way but as soon as you get on the pitch that's when you want to attract attention do your job impress people try and be the best player and show people you deserve to be there but off the field not be noticed show respect to the guys keep your head down not you know get bantered for your gear or whatever it is you know you don't want to do anything to stand out or the car you're driving or anything like that just be under the radar and and you know hopefully um getting people's minds when you're on the football field well people often dismiss some of this now as old school whereas some of those old school values have been around that long that it's also common sense so what were the common sense values that you learned back then in the early 2000s that you think still applies today?

9:57Yeah, I think I feel lucky that I played in the old school, if you like, and then come through to now. I've had an experience of both and, you know, the standards like make sure everything's done, you know, the basic stuff, cleaning boots and it's, you know, picking gear up off the dressing room floor, even when I was playing in the first team at Leeds after the games, you know, I'd scored goals. I was helping the kit man until he you gave me the nod and you feel a million dollars, you feel like you're earning the right to be part of this first team. I'm 16 years old, I've been in the academy.

10:29We got allocated players and because I was a first-year scholar, I had under-18 players' boots to clean. I had a resi player and a first-team player and I'm playing in the first team and I carried on cleaning the under-18 captain's boots because you have to earn your right. He's still older than me, even though I'm playing in the first team and I think that's something that doesn't happen now and young players are very lucky that they're treated like professionals from 8, 9, 10 years of age and that's brilliant but I also think the values I learnt from earning the right to be in that dressing room by doing the horrible jobs doing the skips after the game and things like that when the kit man turns around to you and says go on get on the bus you feel like I've not met it but you know I'm part of the team now I'm one of these guys I've earned that right and it makes you hungry to push on again You said there at the beginning when you first started it was about keeping your head down speak when spoken to and just get on with things.

11:22Something changed though, didn't it? Because I remember hearing Trent Alexander-Arnold saying the one person he wanted to impress when he was in the Liverpool first team was you. Pep Linders at Liverpool, the assistant manager to Jurgen Klopp, said you would stand by the clock as players were arriving and be like, you're late, you're fine. So you might have not spoken too much at Leeds, but there's a moment where you became a leader. When was that? Yeah, I'd probably say move into Villa. moving to Villa sort of time I think early on in my career you know the first time I started and finished the season with the same manager was when I went to Villa I was probably five or six years in with Martin O 'Neill so that instability is not always easy you know you have managers who come in you've got to start again and you're in and out of the team and I think it's hard to do that when you don't feel a part of the team always and you're battling for your place in the team I think when you can establish yourself in the first team that gives you that stability.

12:23And I think when I went to Villa, that was probably a time where I started that. And I was fortunate that I started playing when I was 16. So most people are an experienced player when they're 28, 29, 30. If they start their career around an average sort of time, you're talking eight, nine years into your career that you feel like you've got that voice. I started at 16. So by the time I'm 23, 24, I've had eight years in the Premier League. So I think that gave me an advantage that naturally becoming a bit more, I've seen this before, oh, I can help here. And you gain that confidence and performing well and feeling like you're stable within that team, then you can start worrying less about yourself and thinking more about the team and helping the team more.

13:04And I think obviously that is a lot easier when you get older and that naturally comes. But I think that advantage of starting so young and keeping my eyes and ears open in those early years and working under captains and then you go somewhere like City with an amazing captain like Vinnie Company, attention to detail. I think that then you just try and help in that way. And then, you know, even if you haven't got the armband, it doesn't matter. You need more than one leader in a team. Because this is a topic I've been really looking forward to exploring with you, James, because we've spoken to lots of people that are regarded as cultural architects or dressing room leaders, but rarely do we get the chance to explore what that means.

13:46So like Jake referenced the example of you calling people out for timekeeping or I've heard Trent Alexander-Arnold say that he felt he needed to pass your test before he felt fully accepted as a member of the first team squad at Liverpool. I'd like you to explain to us, if you don't mind, about how do you go about setting standards? So we understand about timekeeping, we understand about doing the right things off the field but how do you go about setting them? I think everyone's different and everybody does it in different ways I think you have people who are vocal you have people who lead by example I think if you can do both I think that's the ideal I think the first thing is setting by example I think if you're not doing everything right it's very hard to pull someone else up for being late if you're late all the time and late's a simple thing but it's a respect thing it's like if you're you think oh i'm 30 seconds late a minute late for a meeting two minutes late well everybody else in that room is sat there waiting for you so why should that happen and people don't see it like that but if we're a team and we have mutual respect we're all there on time and it's a bit of fun we always had fun with the fines and things like this but this was our standards and if you can't be on time for a meeting or training when it's the most important thing you have to do that day as a footballer you're training if you can't be on time little things like that then when we're on a field and everything's moving at a million miles an hour and we've got a set piece and we've got a man off injured and we need to reorganise.

15:12If you can't be organised enough to turn up to a meeting on time, how are you going to be able to do that in the heat of battle? And I think it all feeds in to little things like that. I think the other thing is as well, as you get older, you notice everything. I always had this thing where you notice little things. Is someone not going in the gym? And why is that? Is there a reason for that? How can you approach that? Is it someone who needs a rocket? Is it someone who needs an arm round them? as if someone new needs an encouragement. I think that's something that I've learned as an oldie, start thinking of the game a bit more like that.

15:46And I think that was an important role that the manager has so much to worry about in terms of preparing the team, media every two days, you know, before or after, all this sort of stuff and things like that. He doesn't need to worry about the dressing room and as senior players, I think that was always important that you run the dressing room and any problems within that, it's stopped before it becomes an issue with the manager, whether that's people not doing what they should, not doing the right things on the days off, not training hard enough, that's down to the players to nip that in the bud before it becomes a problem to the manager.

16:16And I appreciate the confidences and you don't have to use names, but it would be really helpful if you could give us an example of a time when you thought, that's not right. You delivered the news either with an arm around the shoulder or with a rocket and you saw the impact. Yeah. I think one of the young lads at Liverpool who come through and amazing ability a bit of a joker great lad but you know maybe he didn't apply himself as much as he could didn't do what he should all the time and you just try and I remember pre-season and we were in the ice baths and we had we had 10 minutes, 15 minutes talking to him and it was one of those where yeah, yeah, yeah and you feel he's listening but you know it's in one ear out the other and you think we're going to have to have that again and you get down the line and we have the conversation again and keep pushing him every little thing and it's tough because you see so many players are amazing and have the ability but don't realise the opportunity they have until it's gone and it's too late and they're 24, 25 and they're out of the game because they haven't embraced all the facilities.

17:35They have everything. The kid at Liverpool is doing so well now and I'm delighted for him. You can see the character, how he's changed and he's kept that bubbliness and everything he's about. But he's doing really well and his attitude is top-notch. Sometimes you just need to help him find that path or the right way to do that. let's talk about your approach then i'd love to get into some specifics of what you have done let's really sort of peel back the curtain if you're happy on how someone can have a 21 year top flight career and maintain their physical abilities how deep did you go in trying to make yourself the very best you could be yeah i tried to leave no stone and turn i think early age um you know i made a decision obviously the alcohol thing's always brought up but it's like is that going to help me be a player no it's not so i'm not going to do that and i don't have a problem with that i'm you know like there's always a right time for people to do it i'm not against alcohol in any way or anything like that but it was just a decision i i felt was right for me that i think if that's going to give me an advantage or help me in any way i'll do it so i didn't do that early on what age well i was i was 16 i mean i'd have struggled at that point anyway because everyone in leeds new york said i wanted to get a drink in the city centre i think there was a story actually where there was a club and I think I'd scored for Leeds that Christmas I think it was either the Boxing Day game the 28th or a nightclub and someone said oh and this one's for James Milner who scored for Leeds in the Premier League today and someone shouted ah I was in his class at school and they're like oh brilliant well that means you're underage then get out and kicked him out I don't know if it's churned out but that's the story At that age though it's easy to say right I'm not going to drink it's much more difficult to not drink Yeah and I think that's one of the things there's so many times I've been not nearly pressured into it but people trying to pressure you oh go on just have one and what difference will it make and things like that and I think that goes back to the big thing of sticking to your guns and the sacrifices you have to make to get to the top and anything and I think there's always going to be distractions and going to bed even back to school and on a Friday night you're playing for the academy Saturday morning your friends have gone out and doing whatever on a Friday night and your phone's ringing oh come out come on blah blah blah and you're in bed because you've got a game the next day it goes back to there and you have to be stubborn enough and and um single-minded enough to to be different and not be popular at times and do what other people are doing whether it's drinking or or going out and doing things like you have your goal and if that helps me i'm gonna have to have that courage to to be the odd one out at times courage is the right word as well because i think when you're looking to achieve something great there's a moment where you make the sacrifice but the reward hasn't arrived yet so there's almost this lonely period where you're you're not a professional footballer scoring goals every week but you're also not out with your mates having a beer how did you navigate that period yeah I think that period has probably come after for me I think because I made my debut so young I'd pretty much gone straight from school then I was on a under 19 tour I remember getting sent home from the under-19 tour after one game and they said you haven't done anything wrong were you just going home you're going to play a lot of football this year and I thought what's going on here have I done something wrong and they had the vision for me obviously to going into the first team and make that step and I did that and played first team football so I didn't really have that dead period but it was more after where I played that first season new manager came in wasn't really playing me went on loan for a month to Swindon and then managed to force my way in and like I said before about changing manager all the time went to three or four managers at Leeds and went to Newcastle change manager so many times that was sort of the period for me where you're in and out of the team like the manager keeps changing and you know I'd done all right and then not quite was where I wanted to be and it's a tough period that was probably the period there where I look back and I think I could so easily have gone another way there if I didn't stick to my guns or I didn't keep pushing and it'd have been easy to be disheartened and moving away from home when I was 18 as well and moving up to Newcastle and living on my own there so I think that was probably the critical period for me of that where I had to stick to my guns and if a manager wasn't rating me all right I'm going to work even harder I'm going to push more I'm going to do what I can.

22:08Have you ever had a period in your career though where you are backing up a bad game with a bad game and it starts to erode your confidence and your willingness to get on the ball?

22:21No, I don't think like that. I think the most frustrating period in my career for me was when I felt like I was playing really well in training, playing well in a game and I wasn't getting picked. And that was the hardest thing. I remember going home and getting upset about it. I went home and cried to the missus and I was like, it was just that frustration of, I feel like I'm doing everything. I go and knock on the manager's door. what can I do to get in your team? What reason am I not playing? Like, you're doing everything well, just keep doing what you're doing. Like, I'd rather him say, you're awful at this, this and this, go and improve that.

22:55But that was never what I got. What period was this? That was when I was at Newcastle and I felt like I was doing well when I was playing, training and just wasn't getting picked in the team. And that was probably, like I said, before that period where you're in between and yeah, you feel like you're doing everything you can but and then you have to go again and keep that belief and keep keep doing it day in day out even though it hasn't worked and try and prove and and every day stand out and things like that but when it's like the goals or if you're doing a different sport you've got times or sometimes says oh this is you need to improve this technically it's different in football it's an opinion sport and you you're always got opinions whether it's fans whether it's managers players whatever it is you can try to change those opinions but ultimately if the manager's the guy picking the team, you can be playing the best football and if you're just not having it, what can you do about that?

23:51And I think that's obviously changing manager is the hardest thing. But if you don't have a direct thing, I need to go and work on this. Well, where do you go from there? So you have to look at yourself and how can I improve? Can I get stronger? Can I do bits like this? What do I think will get me in the team? And I think that's the hardest thing because you haven't got a direct thing where in a different sport it might be, well, I know my tee shots are letting me down, so I'll go and work on driver. if the manager's picking the team he's not picking you So how did you recalibrate your own goals then?

24:19So you've got the external goal of getting in the team and playing well but if that's almost been taken out of your control what did you do to reset there then? I think because football moves so quickly you get those opportunities in terms of someone gets injured or there's a suspension or the manager gets sacked and you have to make sure you're ready for that and that is the thing about football things can change so quickly whether it's good things are going well or not so well you always have to be ready you're only two injuries away from being in the team regardless or a red card away from being in the team and if you've that's the hardest period for play if you're not getting picked it's so easy to drop your standards it's so easy to alright I'm just going to go out with my mates a couple of nights a week because I know I'm not going to play anyway or I'm not going to do that gym session because I haven't been playing so what's the point it's very easy to fall into that.

25:14Did you ever? No. So if it's so easy to fall into that, why didn't you? Because I think the only way I know how to combat something is by working harder. Can I do more? Can I work harder? Can I push myself more? And it's almost like a head loss thing that I'm fuming. So I'm going to go out and punish myself. I'm going to go out and run on the pitch and I'm going to make myself hurt. I'm going to go and do my leg weights and that's what I need to do to feel better, to get rid of that tension or that disappointment of not playing or frustration of, you know, I dislike the manager today. Could use different words there, but yeah.

25:50Today is not my favourite person and I'm going to get rid of that energy by beasting myself, basically. Can we talk about when you joined Manchester City? You walked in at a time when they bought quite a few big-name players. I wonder whether that made it harder because it was like, wow, I'm one of a group of players there looking to sort of move this club forwards. or whether it was almost easy that you came in with you know Yaya Torre and a few other big names yeah I don't know actually yeah I suppose there was probably pressure going there going to a team that you know you wanted to to achieve and I had a choice of another club who'd won a lot of stuff and I chose City because they hadn't won anything for such a long time and it was attractive to be part of something that starts a new period of success we can play guess the game of the other club er Chelsea there you go that makes it easier that was exactly what I was going to say I thought United why did you why would you have chosen City over Chelsea what was the thinking well exactly that I felt like it was something that they hadn't won anything and it was exciting and it was the same again when I went to Liverpool it was that same sort of feeling like yeah amazing history but they haven't won anything recently and how good it would be to start a new period of success.

27:11And that was my thinking again. And build something and build a new sort of winning area, if you like. It's interesting that because I think most players would go, who's won the most trophies recently, I'll go and join a club where I know they win. Yeah, that was just my thinking. I think it was something that appealed to me. You could see they were going somewhere and the harder decision was probably City to Liverpool because I could have stayed at City. but again that was probably the braver decision in terms of you know Liverpool's a big pull as well but it wasn't the level it was you know it wasn't the highest level challenge for trophies necessarily when I went there so that was probably a braver decision and along the same lines but you know City was spent they were spending a lot of money and you could see that it was a good chance to be successful I hadn't won anything yet in my career I think we lost my last season at Villa we lost in the League Cup final so being close but not won something and you want to win trophies ultimately Was the echoes of what you said about when your dad had told you that you couldn't do something it was almost that willingness to go and prove them wrong was there anything that featured in the decision making there that?

28:23Yeah maybe I think like you say maybe there was pressure in terms of all these players they're signing and spending a lot of money and they can buy who they want so there's a bit of confidence that they can buy anyone and they've come after me, but also you have to back yourself to go there and think amongst all these superstars. You have to prove yourself and show you belong at that level and that was a step and you had to go in there and all guns blazing straight away and that was probably, again, the same thing as you want to impose yourself on the pitch but maybe with a bit more personality off it than I had done earlier in my career, you know, when I was saying younger and you don't want to, you know, you had the likes of, you know, Patrick Vieira in that dressing room people like that I still speak to Pat now when I see him I get on with him so well and he used to kick lumps out of me in training every time we went past him but it was a big personality dressing room you had the likes of Nigel de Jong Vinnie Company Jolion Lescourt Mika Richards Joe Hart and I fit into that group pretty well straight away and it was it was good fun there was a lot of banter going on you had to be on your toes there was a lot of in the treatment room it was a pretty brutal place but yeah I'd say at that point I was confident in myself I was confident that I could help and be a leader and be a big personality in the dressing room and that probably gave me confidence again to be able to go do that in a dressing room full of big personalities I think that was probably a next step for me And what did you notice about the step up in quality and the things those players had done the things those players had won what was like oh wow okay that's that's what it takes Yeah I think it was a step at that time because I got into the England squad around that time as well so you you're stepping up again in quality and the speed of play and people who had achieved things and again looking at them, what are they doing?

30:11How do they deal with things? What are the personalities like? How can I help that? People who had played in different countries and won trophies in different countries. So all these things, again, it was another learning curve and yeah, dealing with those different personalities because people are coming a lot of money. There was a lot of egos in that dressing room as well and being part of that group and was a step in and finding your place within that, I suppose, as well. Well, that period of City's history is interesting because going into Manchester City at that time where they're newly minted with the owners coming in, they've not won anything for a long period of time.

30:52It was almost a bit of a scattershot approach to recruitment that was made there where they made some mistakes as well as made some great signings as well so what was the kind of lessons that you saw there that about recruiting the right people yeah I think that's always a big one and I think like you say every year it was the same there was new new faces coming in and that was one thing that was a big battle for me I think because you know if I got left out of the team there was certain players who would kick off and it'd be a problem for the team and problem for the manager so they'd maybe get picked and there was many times I probably would have been playing better but they knew I wouldn't kick up a fuss I'd still train hard I might not be happy and I might go speak to the manager in the right way but I wouldn't cause problems and that affected me and every year it was the same they'd sign new players I'd go to the back of the queue I had to fight my way in got the odd game and then managed to fight my way into the team and play a lot of games from that period it always felt like it was a constant battle and that was my sort of feeling at the time but yeah I think like you say there was a lot of players coming in and it was a lot of good players put together and trying to shape the team in that way and every year there was players, you knew there was going to be good players coming in again for big transfer fees and it all started again the next year finding the right way for the team to play with the players that had been brought in.

32:15Is that not quite exhausting though? Yeah, it was and I did find it hard for sure because I knew I had periods where I played really well and I played different anywhere for the team. The team always comes first and I had games where I played five, six positions in a game. I remember playing right wing, left wing, right back, left back. If someone went off injured, then I'd go midfield or up front. I had a period where I played six games up front and I'm fine with that. The team always comes first and I'll do what I can. But it was one of those and I'd play every game in the League Cup and then I got to the final and I got left out of the final and then it was Pellegrini at the time said to me after the final, I was like, you deserve to play.

32:56well what am I what am I meant to do with that like I don't know I wonder why someone would feel the need to say that well yeah so again that's how do you deal with that and how did you work hard again I don't know that was it it was just like alright I'm going to push again and like you say it did get exhausting every year that you're the easy option to leave out and you go to the back of the queue and that was that period really for me it sounds like being low maintenance has actually cost you in that period of your time. So was there ever a period where you felt you should betray some of what had got you this far and start kicking off a little bit?

33:34I do believe that if I was like that at times, I would have maybe played more. But then on the flip side, my versatility at times in my career has probably got me games where maybe I wouldn't have played at times as well because I could play different positions and do things in games. So there's flip side. I've no doubt that it probably has cost me, but I would never change it. I don't think it is the right way. It doesn't... There's a right way to be and conduct yourself. And yeah, I don't think... I mean, that would ultimately mean I'm affecting my teammates if I'm sulking in training, kicking off and things like that.

34:15And it is a team sport. so the team always comes first regardless of anything else but that's also you betraying yourself I think one of the standout themes of this conversation is whatever happens around you huge success, difficult times toxic dressing rooms, great dressing rooms you stay true to yourself yeah I think that's important I think the same of any team but any individual I suppose you have your values and what drives you and what pushes you. And you wouldn't want to change from that. I think that's, you are who you are and you have your beliefs. And I suppose if you change them, then for me, that's not the right thing to do.

34:59I think obviously if you're going down the wrong path, then you have to change that. But I suppose if you believe it's the right way to be and you're fully invested in that, why would you change the way you are? What was the hardest moment at Manchester City for you? I think leaving was a tough decision. I think leaving I think the start of every season was tough because new players come in like I said and I had to fight my way back in to the team getting to finals and helping the team get there and then you know not playing the final game but I think leaving was a tough decision for sure and I had just under two years left and we spoke to him and we were talking I wanted to stay and things like that and we got to and said yeah we'll talk to you after the transfer window and that was August time or whatever.

35:46And then I didn't hear anything until the March time and it got to that point and it was like, the offer was probably less than what I was getting and things like that. And you're thinking, well, every year is the same thing. I'm back of the queue. Is this something I want to do? So at that point you're thinking, not sure about this. And I was homegrown. You feel a bit taken for granted. And it got into the next season and that's my final season. And the closer it got to the end, other teams are coming on and then eventually spoke to the the owners and the Caldoon come on and had a great conversation with him he was brilliant and the offer got to a point which was you know where it should have been originally but the people I'd been speaking to before and it was like you know we do take you for granted a bit and by the end it was that was apparent and leaving Man City is tough you know like you'd won two league titles close to you want to win then a European trophy and you think that's a chance and you know just that decision to Liverpool coming in and I thought little things like you know you deserve to play comments like that they stick with moments like that they stick with you and it was tough to leave and Liverpool's an amazing club and an opportunity and it was a tough one to leave City but that was the decision I made and I think at that point it was a huge decision to go there and leave Man City.

37:16I could have easily stayed there a lot longer and been happy and I liked my time there, but it just felt like for me that was the right decision even though it was a tough one. I also think it's a really important thing to talk about because football fans get shown 10 % of what happens, right? And then they have to kind of make the rest up because they haven't been given the full information. So I think for them to know that it wasn't just you wanting to leave the football club and there was other circumstances around it is important. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, for sure, if they'd have offered me with 18 months left and offered at that point, I'd 100 % signed it at that point.

37:54But when it got a bit longer and you're getting a bit lower and you think, well, do they really want me? Am I that much in their plans? Am I? And it went until it got to the point where it looked like there was a chance of me leaving and then people got involved higher up and it was full steam on and like, we really want to keep you here. We love you. but at that point it had gone past the point where you think it's a bit of an afterthought here.

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40:24And what hurt more, the fact they left you waiting for ages? Or the fact that when they made the offer, they were saying, you're going to get a pay cut? that was the first one and it went to a different way of giving it and I think basically you know if I won the Ballon d 'Or three times in a row I'd have had a pay rise and it was all bonus related and stuff but it was unrealistic and like I say the final offer was respectable do you know what I mean and Carl Dean was actually like we know it's not about money but you know you name your price and we'll stay and we'll give you it which was nice but it was too late if that had been a year before 100 % I'd have been at the club but at that point it was just it'd gone too far and it was tough to leave there I love my five years there and even though the fans don't like me too much now for whatever reason and it's easy to laugh at that and brush it off but when you've done what you did there you know that amazing Premier League win and many other things as well does that hurt?

41:24It doesn't hurt I think everyone's entitled to their opinion I think there's a narrative around that I said things about the club which I never have there was a few false headlines and things that I'd apparently said after and I think people run with that and you go to a rival and you go to a rival and you become the biggest rivals you knock them out of a Champions League you go and win a Champions League trophy which they were desperate for before they do so you generally see that if I'd have gone and signed for a championship club I'd get applauded out every time I go there so it is football Didn't they get annoyed by the lasso celebration when you scored against them?

41:58Well the thing about that was they beat us in the League Cup final two days before. So the story around that was, I scored at the Etihad and never celebrated. I've gone to a new team and we used to joke, you're shocking at cards, you're an absolute cowboy. So I said, next time someone scores, they've got to do a lasso celebration. So we play in the League Cup final, lose the League Cup final to City. Devastating, lads are devastated. We play them in the league a few days later. So it's literally three days after that game. so score at Anfield obviously we've just lost a League Cup to them and I've got a decision that I'm thinking well my new teammates who we've just lost a League Cup to this team were at Anfield do I do this celebration or not and in that split second I decide to do and it wasn't like I'm running around in front of the you know Adibio-esque like running to the fans it was literally two steps muted and then that was it so it wasn't like rub the salt in it and obviously people have taken offence to that but that was basically the story behind it in that split second I felt for my new teammates after losing a cup final to these guys if I turn around and say well look at I didn't know what sort of impact that had so in that split second that's the decision I made and like I say I felt it was pretty muted but and it's also when it's explained it's totally understandable yeah people have taken offence I mean I scored at the Etihad I think in a penalty I scored and didn't celebrate.

43:28But yeah, it is what it is. Some more players to score against our ex-teams. I've never said anything bad about City. I haven't got a reason to. They took me there. I feel like they made me a better player. I enjoyed my time there and won trophies there. And they've hurt me a lot more than I've hurt them, I think, with the league titles they've taken off us and things like that. Can I ask you something, though, that I think our listeners would be interested in for their own lives? There's something really powerful there, but when you were talking about that contract negotiation with City, how you, even if they couldn't recognise your value, you recognised your own, how do you go about doing that?

44:08I think believing in yourself. I think, again, weighing up your options. What's my path? Where do you want to be? I'd like to think I've made the right decision every step of my career where I've had options and weighed it up and touch wood, it's turned out all right. but I think at that point you'd think well what happens if I leave this club like am I going to play at this level again will I win trophies is this my only chance to stay and win trophies length of time at a club like how do you react to that obviously it's easy to get stale in the same place and that mentality I remember speaking to Gail Clich I think it was when he was saying I was at Arsenal for a certain amount of time I got to that point where I was just there too long so I'd been at City five years that's the longest I'd been at any club and all these things and And I just felt like it was the right thing to do for me.

44:57And I'm proud of the fact that I never once wavered my commitment to City in that time. Like, contracts running down. If you get injured at that point, you're in deep shtuck. And I had a knee thing at that time where I was struggling. And there's no way I should have been playing, especially with no contract. And I carried on playing. The team needed me and I was playing. And I always gave 100 % for the team. And that was right. That was into the stage where it was like in March of April. And I was playing in games. I was in agony and, you know, that was stupid for me really. But I put the team first in terms of what it was and I felt like even though I feel like I've been hard done by you, I've signed a five-year deal for this club and I'm going to give you absolutely everything for those five years until the day I finish.

45:41And then I'm on my way. And looking back, it was a bit silly from that point of view. But again, I suppose that's going back to your core values and thinking, you know, the team comes before yourself, really. So you use the example when you were at Newcastle, you went knocking on the manager's door, asking, what do I need to do? Did you do the same with Jürgen? Yeah, always. He'll tell you that. We had a lot of conversations and stuff like that and we got on really well. We had the odd disagreement at times, but I think as long as you go into a manager and you put a clear argument ahead in front of you, given the reasons why, and it's done in a respectful way.

46:22I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I'd like to think managers want that. They've always got the final say, but surely as a manager, you want a player to come and say and be unhappy at not playing. And I think that's one of the big things for me. The moment that even now, I know I can't play three games in a week, but even now when the manager names the team and I'm not in the team, I'm annoyed. And the day that I'm not annoyed from not being in a team, I think it's time to hang it up. So what did you say to Jürgen? how did you sell your case for being a midfielder? I think at that time it was just like I mean I can't remember the exact conversations but I'd always just go in and say well why am I not playing?

47:01It was never anything personal with anyone else I would never ever say why is he playing ahead of me or I've done this that's not it's my well it's their situation that's not me to comment on another player he's got his own opinion of those players I'm going to ask why I'm not in the team and even if I believe I'm a better player than someone else or I give more I don't think one that's fair to my team mate and two it is me I'm the reason I'm going in so it's like why am I not in the team what can I do better and basically that's it and if there's something else a situation that's gone on or something you'll talk about that and hopefully get an answer from the manager How much would you think right what do I want to say how do I want to say it what do I want the outcome to be or was it much more emotional than that I'm just going to burst in and blah blah blah.

47:50No. I think once I've burst into the manager's office a very long time ago and that's the only time I've ever done it. When was that? I knew you were going to ask that. I'll answer the first bit. The first bit was if I go into a manager I would think about how the conversation would go. So I'll say what I want to get out of it. I'll think how I put my argument across in the best way to give him reasons to why I'm justifying what I'm saying. And I'd want an answer ideally but I think sometimes when you go for a manager, it's better to give him a heads up you're going to see him because if you catch him on the hop, he maybe hasn't thought about it either.

48:27Whereas if I said to him before training, can I get you after training? He might start thinking, right, he's coming to see me about this and he might have a better answer for you rather than saying just something to get you out of his office. So I think that was always important. The once where I burst into a manager's office was I was at Newcastle. and they accepted a bid for me to go to Aston Villa on deadline day. After I'd been on loan there, so I went back to Newcastle and went down to Villa and offer had been accepted, got their deadline day and Martin O 'Neill was manager and he said, oh, the plug's been pulled on it.

49:07I started laughing, I thought he was joking, I didn't know him, so I thought it was his personal. I was like, no, they've changed their mind, they're not doing it. So I went all the way back up to Newcastle, they'd changed their mind. One of their deals hadn't come through and I went back. so I went back up there the manager was like never wanted you to go was the manager Glenn Roder right never wanted you to go really happy you're back you know it was a club's decision alright so my head's all over the place club didn't want me gone there club who did want me they've pulled the plug gone back right fine I'm ready to go I'm on it if you haven't done it let's get on with it that Saturday come I think it was that Thursday or Wednesday or Thursday the transfer window so that Saturday come I wasn't in the matchday squad I wasn't even on the bench and I went in there and said a few choice words and I think that's the angriest I've ever been in my life actually I went into the players lounge after and my now wife's dad was sat there and he says he'd never seen me like that he didn't know what to say and that was the one time where and probably the only time where I got that angry and wasn't calculating what I was saying and it was probably with good reason but that's never happened again and I always like to think I'm pretty calm and I have an argument and I know what I'm saying.

50:22I know where the conversation is going and I've got a way of doing that. But that was the one time. I was only 20 at the time, maybe. And what kind of manager was Jürgen when a player wants to share their thoughts on his decisions? He was pretty good most of the time. He was open. Maybe not at half-time. We had one time where he was sharing his thoughts and I was sharing mine and I remember him smashing his hands down on the time will you shut the fuck up but Jürgen was brilliant had a great relationship with him great man off the field as well supported our charity so much amazing manager but yeah I always felt like he most of the time was open and even if you didn't feel like in the conversation he gave you stuff back I felt like he thought about it afterwards and even if he didn't tell you that you can maybe see with how he did things after or something like that, I think I felt like he was good at taking it on board and he'd always, he's the leader, he makes the decision.

51:23But if you've maybe put something in his head and it maybe helped then, but I think he was pretty good at listening to things like that. And I've seen him change a lot in the time with that. How did he set standards? Probably the easiest thing to say is, he said, whatever we do, we do it 100%. If we train him, we train 100%. If we play, we play 100%. And one year, the first year, we played Watford away. at Christmas and I was injured I didn't go and we lost at Watford and we've come back and I'm going in thinking you know are we going to have the Christmas party or what the atmosphere is going to be because I haven't been in the dressing room I don't know what's been said or anything I go in and the manager said yeah we've had a crap result today but this is our Christmas party it's for the staff more than anything who work so hard all year round so we're not going to have faces on like I said before when we train we train 100 % when we play we play 100 % and when we party we party 100 % and I think that was the biggest thing like everything you did was absolutely 100 % at all times and he used that lovely phrase about turning doubters into believers was there a moment for you when you went from knowing this guy off the television and following what he'd done in German football to really thinking this is a guy I'm going to follow because I think he's taking us somewhere I think just being part of the journey was like you've seen it happen in front of your eyes the first year where he's inherited a team got to two finals and lost them how we reacted to that and then you know fighting changing the team bit by bit the players he wanted and the training and then the big moments of getting into Europe late in the season getting to a Champions League final it not happening and getting 97 points and the big one for me is I think losing in the Champions League final coming back the next year getting 97 points and not winning a league title is obviously obscene and then having a Champions League final after that.

53:16I think that's the big point there that if we don't win that Champions League final, would that team have been able to get over Champions League last night? Seven points, not winning the league, losing another Champions League. So I think that final was really big, but there was never a moment really where I doubted us going into that final. And obviously the semi-final against Barcelona was a big moment where, you know, we're losing and it comes in and says, no team in the world really has a chance to overturn this. but it's you and we do and I think that gave us the belief then that we could and the way the night happened and obviously winning the semi-final I think that took us on to then go and win the final I like the fact that you said you're going to come in and control the narrative of nobody thinks we can come back from this but I remember the footage of you getting stuck into Messi from early on like what was it that was going on there that gave you that belief rather than just false optimism yeah I think for me I was emotional after that game as well because it was like I said the thought and fear of coming out empty handed again of what a good team were because I mean the first game we didn't play bad lost 3-0 we went to Newcastle I think on the Saturday and scored late to win the game which kept us in the title hunt then City were drawing and then Vinnie Company sliced one in the top bin like last minute and that was night before and I've seen Vinny do that millions of times and it ended up in the hedge at Carrington when I was at City so I mean amazing golf and obviously an absolute balloon buster for us so we've gone in the next day and all those little things and the manager said does anyone want to say anything about last night nope right so that was put to bed straight away with one comment anyone want to say about last night no right done then we build up for the game a great bit of management that actually isn't it it was morning of the game we trained then we went to the hotel then before the game it was you know I don't think anyone else has a chance but because it's you you do so straight away it's like this guy believes in us Jesus and there was just a calmness about the game I remember the crowd setting the tempo like Suarez amazing player for Liverpool fans love him standing over the kickoff whistles boo straight away and it's like we might have loved you in the past but not tonight mate you're not one of us tonight and set the sort of tone get a corner first minute raw was as if we'd scored and just picked it off first goal, but there was never a desperation.

55:46Yeah, I think I gave Messi a bit the first game in the Nou Camp. He's unbelievable what a player best I've played against. So much respect for him, but I don't think he cares for me too much. But you can't let the best have it their own way sometimes. Yeah, you try and put him out of his stride. Robbo did it at the start of the next game. I think there was a moment where he was on the floor, ruffled his hair, and you ride that wave of Anfield. and you can't, you show respect but you have to like not make everything their own way and this is a Barcelona team with experienced players who've won some serious titles you're talking about so it's not an easy feat so everything you can do to try and make it uncomfortable for them you do and you know we got the first goal and then went in at half time and then we got the other goals and it was never a desperation it was just bit by bit and it grew and grew Robbo went off at half time injured so I've got a left back which you know with Messi on the field that's probably not the best position to be in either so that was something else but you know just the team how we managed to do it and then you know my memory at the end I think Hendo was struggling we were keeping it in the corner at the end and just hanging on and whistle went and Hendo slides towards the crowd and forgot he'd knackered his knee in the game and his knee nearly lost his knee in the turf and he's like what am I thinking but it was emotional because it felt like like I said to you if we hadn't have come out with anything that year, that team would have struggled to bounce back from that.

57:11And I think the fact we still had that chance to achieve something that year was massive. And you also mentioned about the strength of relationships defines a good dressing room earlier. Is that something you do deliberately or does that just emerge given the amount of time you spend together? No, I think it's something we worked on and it's tough for the amount of games, but you Try and do the social things together and things as a group, things with families as well and get the girls involved. So I think we tried to fit those in and early on we had a couple of trips in the January and we went to Dubai as a team and a lot of things like that and we had a team picture on a boat and it was up in the dressing room and those memories and things like that and I think that helped players settle.

57:56It was pretty early on in Virgil's career actually. I think it was the first two weeks at the club when we went there and a trip like that, it's like pre-season when you're away together for a week you feel like you've been there a lot longer than you actually have because you're you're in together so i think you have to work it and it's important but those relationships are key and early on and as well in that group we had the fines and we had a court case and we had a big inflatable dice and you had to roll it and things like that how did that work out so we had we we randomly drew who was the jury that day and I'd basically be running the court and arguing why someone should be fined and the jury would decide and someone would argue the case if they shouldn't be fined or not.

58:37What sort of misdemeanors are we talking? Well, if they were late but they had a reason or flip-flops in the gym and there's a reason I had to do this and someone was arguing and you always got the people who argued non-stop and it was quite funny actually because Joel Matip's one of the funniest guys I know and he was in there and I don't think he'd really said too much of that to point and he was on the jury and it was like, right, what do you think? He was like, yeah, double, pay double and people's personalities came out straight away and it was a good togetherness thing and I think that these little things just create that dressing room and enjoying other people's pain, I think.

59:14What was the role of the dice? So the dice was you could either pay your fine or you had different things so one would be a double payment, one would get off with it, one would be a forfeit. so I remember I think it was Bobby Firmino was on a Swiss ball trying to balance trying to throw a tennis ball into a foam roller and he had three attempts and if he got it and he didn't have to pay like little things like that Did you get it? No did you? Yeah little things like that so I think all those things helped when you think about the journey now helped the group become the group We were joined by Cio Colise the captain of the spring box and he said that what he tried to do was create a culture so that when you were in the middle of a game and it was full on and there was a lot happening and you looked left and right you didn't see your teammates you actually saw your brothers it's about fostering that kind of an atmosphere did it feel like a band of brothers at Liverpool?

1:00:07Yeah I think so I think that's important for any successful team because in those moments where you know you need to win 4-0 or you get a man sent off and you're digging deep or you're hanging on for a win you know each other you're so close you know that you're going to go that extra yard for each other you're going to put your head into that challenge for each other you want to go that extra yard for your mate because you don't want to let him down and I think that massively it has to help doesn't it if you feel so close to the people you're on the pitch with as opposed to just your randomer I'm desperate to help him out I'm going to run that 20 yards because I know he's getting toasted by the winger which was normally me I want someone to come and help me do you know what I mean and help me out and I think those relationships have to help you.

1:00:53What is the standout memory of your time playing for Liverpool when you think back to those days? Where do you go? I think the Barcelona game was an obvious one. And Dortmund, I think that was Anfield European nights on the field. I'd say there. The moments off the field. I think just the people at the club had great relationships with the players and the staff. Probably the parades. I think the parades when you've achieved what you wanted to and win a trophy. We're lucky to have a couple and you see people hanging off scaffolding, people hanging off lampposts, like just seas of people in the city centre.

1:01:34I mean, we had one with Calvin Harris on the bus and going down the main street in Liverpool and people everywhere and music blaring. It was like, they're the moments where you can enjoy what you've achieved together. And, you know, we've achieved this and you see what it means to the fans of their club because ultimately it's their team, you know, their club they were there long before I was there and they'll be there long after me I'm renting a shirt there can I represent them and add to my aim when I got there was can we add to this amazing history of the club and you know the league title was a big one because it had been so long since I've won the league title but for me that was always the one I want to change that wall in the training ground where you walk in and it has the number under each trophy that I'd won I was desperate to change that and every time I did that that was amazing and finally on Liverpool is there a Jurgen Klopp moment that you kind of reflect on as like that was true leadership that kind of sums up what that guy did for us

1:02:33probably early on was probably when the first season and we lost the Carabao or the League Cup final I can't remember what it sponsored was then the League Cup final and the Europa League final and it was it was different to what we you know the English lads were sat in the corner like he wanted everyone down in the reception I think Hendo told this story and you know we were like fuming like don't want to be here I want to go back to my room and he was like it's important everyone's together and he got us over and he wanted us all on the dance floor and he come over three times come over I was like no come over second time and he come over third time what was he saying he wanted us to come over and what he wanted to do he didn't know at this time but he said I want everyone on the dance floor Was he dancing as well?

1:03:18Yeah, he was having a dance at that time, but he wanted us over to do what he did after that, which I'll tell you. And he was like, he'd come over the third time, he was like, I'm your fucking manager, get your ass over basically. And we went over and we're like, fuck's sake. We've gone over and he starts, gives a speech and he was like basically saying, this is the start of the journey basically, look what we've achieved this year, we've only just come in and, you know, basically this is it. We're on a start here, look what we've achieved and what he envisioned after that and what happened. but he was basically saying look what we've achieved here and we haven't even started and then he had us all singing We Are Liverpool and like obviously he's had a couple of drinks and a few of the others are and it's like I don't drink so it's like obviously it makes it a bit easier for them but then you see his vision after and again that was probably the moment where two finals didn't win either but he saw the bigger picture and he thought we haven't even started here yet guys What did that do for you?

1:04:11I mean at the time you're thinking not sure it's probably more after that you realise and you're like at the time you're like it's alright you've had a drink and that's why but now you see and he's like he wanted everyone to believe he wanted everyone together he wanted to say like we are Liverpool this is us this is where we're going to go from here and we're together in the bad times and the tough times after you've lost a European final we're together doesn't matter what happens good, bad indifferent we're together at all times and that was the message and you know you realise that going forward at the time you're like still fuming I've just lost the European final or whatever but that's the message and you see it and you see the start of the next pre-season and the messages he's delivering and I think he sent a text message after that as well can't remember what it was but it was obviously something that said submit to all the lads yeah the whole group and something like make sure you're ready because fasten your seatbelts it's on something along those lines do you know what I mean regrets no not one not one I think that's that's something I don't really do I think I think I analyse everything, think about decisions in the right way and pull the trigger and that's my decision and I fully 100 % commit to it.

1:05:25And if it is a mistake, well, how can I make it better or we've chosen this path, that's it. Like it's pointless regretting what you've done. You've made that decision, you've had time to think about and you've made that decision and sometimes things work out, sometimes don't, but how can I make the best of that decision I've made? but it's amazing to see how well the England team have done and come so close to winning trophies since then. But I've never once felt envious or wish I was there or anything like that, which I think would be very easy to feel that, but I just never have. And I suppose that's a nice feeling that I feel like I've made the right decision and I've fully committed to it.

1:06:07What about for you personally, from a family point of view, what do you feel that retiring has given you? Yeah I think both for my football and for my family I think obviously I've been able to spend time with them my son's birthday when they were a bit younger in school it was always around the November and there was always an international break so he spent the majority of his first birthdays in Dubai and in water parks and things which was great and it gave me that time and I think the amount of time I'd played in national football and the amount of time I've had my career it's relentless it's 100 % it's non-stop I think those international breaks now are massive for me I think when you do something for so long and the intensity I think those breaks to switch off and have a change of scenery is huge I think if I was at a place where you didn't get that time off now I think it would be hard to keep that intensity and keep that desire but if you have those days off in the international break you come back refreshed ready to go again and I think that's been really important because when you do something for so long at an intensity and put everything into it.

1:07:12Like I said before with the diet thing, if you're trying to be strict with your diet every single day of every month, I think you're going to fail and I think it's the same thing. You need that break the right time to come out of it and have that switch off briefly to go again and keep your intensity and your desire. So can I ask you one question that intrigues me about your story, this relentlessness? There's lots of people in your industry as well as plenty of others that would get bored and they look for fads, they look for new concepts and they'll jump on anything that looks bright and shiny that passes them.

1:07:46How do you avoid getting bored of following routine? I think goals is a big thing. I think, obviously, it starts when you're a young lad and I want to get in the first team and then you're in the first team and can I be a regular? And then you move club or whatever and it's like, right, now I want to get in the England squad and I get in the England squad and can I win trophies and can I stay there? and then you get to an age where everyone's saying you're getting on a bit now and it's like alright well I'm going to prove you're wrong I'm going to so every interviewer doing that I do now it's like what are you going to do when you retire and things like that and it's you're trying to kick that can down the road and it's like you play well now and it's like oh my god how is he doing that at his age and you play rubbish and he's over the hill like he's too old and that's the territory unfortunately but I think it's you know not proving people wrong but it's every day you go out there you want to be the best if you're in pre-season you want to push people further you know now it's easier than ever really to push the boundaries because you're older so it's like anything good you do it's like how is he doing that at his age like how is he still running that age or how is he still in the Premier League after 22 years I want to stand out in the right way and push myself and contribute as long as I can and everyone you speak to say you know play as long as you can and you know I get the odd niggle here and there now and that's probably from pushing myself a bit too hard at times but I just want to keep going as long as I can really and achieve everything you can.

1:09:10How long have you got left on your current contract? Well, it's one, maybe two years from this year. Maybe one more, depends. Games played and things. So, is there fear? Is there doubt? Is there a few questions about what comes next? How are you dealing with that? Yeah, I think it comes in more even in a football in terms of, you know, if I'm injured, is this because I'm older? Is it just because I've had injuries like this before anyway? Or, you know, at what point, I know I'm going to drop off. What is a drop-off? Does it mean that one day I get out of bed and I just can't move? Is it a gradual thing?

1:09:48And that's my mindset. It's always been, when I was 27, 28, a fitness coach said, oh, you're going to, because I always run the most in training and things like that, you're going to have to take care of yourself here and drop off. And my mindset was, I don't agree with that. I think if I'm dropping off, I'd rather drop off from here to there instead of there to there. And that's what I've always tried to do. And I think, so that's, now you're thinking about that in football, like what does that look like? Or am I still fine? Because I feel fine and my performance is still the same level. And, you know, the thing you notice is it takes you longer to recover.

1:10:23That's probably the thing that you get when you're older and the nutrition and the ice baths and the cryo and things like that come even more important. And then the questions come, what are you going to do after? So even though I want to play as long as I can, then it's what do you do after? And I'm very understatement. I've done my coaching badges. But then you look at managers and they get three months to do a job and you think, well, do I want to do that? And then you think, well, how lucky I've been for the players I've played with, the managers I've worked under, the areas I've worked under, the experience I've gained, things I've learned.

1:10:58Is that a shame to come out of the game and not give it back? and then it's if you're in football it's the same life again for your family so I talked about family before and you've missed enough already and your schedule is always planned for you and then you go into thinking well when you retire you talk to other players and it's like well every day I've been told this is your training week you're training Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Sunday whatever you're here at this time when you finish or what you're training for or what you're going to do that day and that's a big void to fill as well so there's all these questions and I've thought about it as you can tell but I have no idea so and you have to enjoy life as well for a bit I think for sure it's very hard to have the intensity to go into something straight away without having that time out there's a certain lady and some kids at home that perhaps need a bit of time with their dad yeah and they've sacrificed so much which you know like you say people don't see the times where you're on holiday and you're leaving them and go running and you're travelling away with the team and you're coming home moody as hell because you've lost and that's the feeling that I definitely won't miss and one you can never get rid of, you lose a game and you don't really get rid of that until you've trained again and you've run around like an idiot and you've worked it out like being left out of the team.

1:12:10It's that same thing when you lose a game. So yeah, the family put up with a lot and the missus has been there from the very start so she's seen the whole journey. So what would the 16-year-old lad that came into that dressing room at Ellen Road make of the James Milner today? how much of it would he recognise? I think he'd probably be happy with what he'd done he'd probably be surprised at playing fullback I was a jinky winger and pretty quick back then so he'd probably be surprised at that side but no I think when I look at the early period for sure and I feel like how young I was coming from school to making my debut what three four months later to having managers sacked go on loan change team change manager every year when I look at that and how I dealt with it I'm surprised but happy and and and relieved in a way that I managed to get through that period because it would have been so easy for me to fall along the wayside or or not take my chance when I got it because you have to be lucky you have to be lucky at getting your opportunity but you have to take a chance as well and you think all these sliding doors moments of managers getting sacked and one that I remember was at Leeds and we're playing at Spurs away I think and Terry Venables pulled me in and he said you're not traveling I'd played a couple of games at this point he said you're not traveling you aren't done what wrong I just don't want to expose you too much too soon went out and trained someone got injured in training so I traveled traveled wasn't on the bench in the tunnel before the game someone got injured in the warm-up you're on the bench got on the bench came on the pitch did well I think I might have assisted a goal or something and from that point I'm in and you think all those tiny little things that have happened but I've managed to take my chance but it's like you see all these moments in your career now you're thinking back and you're thinking how I've managed to get through that or deal with that you think how it could have been different can you believe how quickly it's gone by not at all I remember uh Nigel Martin I think was probably my age now when I come through at Leeds I used to say I enjoy it it goes like that and I was like leave it out on age I'm 16 and here we are blink of an eye and I'm where he was Have you enjoyed it?

1:14:34Yeah 100 % yeah I mean you're doing something you enjoy every day and I think the things I've managed to experience good, bad and indifferent I've experienced pretty much everything you could hope to experience you know And won the lot domestically yes yeah yeah a couple of times I love that sorry right quick fire questions the three non-negotiable behaviours that you and the people around you need to buy into hard work commitment and trust or respect what's your biggest strength and your greatest weakness I think I think my mindset or relentlessness is probably a strength, but maybe also a weakness.

1:15:27I think at times, like you say, overdoing it or pushing too hard to prove people wrong or not being able to switch off, I'd probably say that is a strength and a weakness. If you could go back to one moment in your life, where would you go and why? Say sport in life, because you never want to get in trouble with a missus over the both of the kids they're obviously up there but it's hard to pick one so hard and I feel fortunate that I've got more that I could say but you can go back to my first goal at Ellen Road as a Leeds fan and coming through and scoring on the 28 I scored 26, 28 16 years old families there season ticket holders that was so special but then winning a trophy and I like those games where you win a trophy and you're on a parade after I think they're probably the highlights yeah what's the best piece of advice you've ever received and why

1:16:24probably from my dad was one so simple but anything you practice on your right foot practice on your left simple but you know attention to detail and one that's probably been in there that long and is so important I think but yeah that's probably stands out from an early age I think after that it's very hard like one like I said you're trying to pick bits off from everyone all the time aren't you so it's hard to remember one thing Who's the one player you played with in your career who we should pick up the phone to and invite them onto high performance?

1:17:03I would say I think Joe Hart would be a good one because I think he's a good personality and he's had massive highs and big lows as well and I think he's dealt with them amazing. So I'd say he's definitely a good one. The final question is, what's your one golden rule for living a high-performance life? I think you have to fully commit. I think that's the biggest thing. Whatever you're doing, you have to be all in. If you're, whatever you're doing, whether you're training for a marathon, whether you're doing a job or a certain thing, whether you're trying to be a footballer, if you're in, you're in 100 % and that's probably the only thing.

1:17:45you don't want to look back on could I have worked harder or could I have done a bit more or are you doing everything you can to be the best you are and that's every part of your life are you thinking about that and before kids come along on that there's no excuses like you think when you have kids you think what did I do all my time before but when you're a young guy and you're trying to make it in a sport or profession there's no excuse for every part of your life on the field off the field doing more doing extra fully commit to it because people say well I've done everything you can but that's why in a team sport you can compare yourself to your teammates and individuals it's very hard to think well I feel like I've had a good day's work there but you don't know if there's another golfer on the side of town who's done twice as much work here twice as many balls analyse more and I think that's the perfect place to finish because I think it sums up what has stood you in such good stead throughout your career and that is the incredible attention to detail, finding your own limits, surpassing them, delivering on them every single day and I think sometimes it's unhelpful to sit and just say well natural talent got me to where I got to, there's no doubt you have an incredible natural talent but I think you are a poster boy for focus, determination, consistency self-belief and I think it's really inspiring for people to hear your story so thank you so much Thanks for having me, it's a privilege The opposite of boring

1:19:17Damien Jake you wouldn't have known when we were sitting here talking to someone that has won every single domestic trophy you can lay your hands on it was an incredible story but I think they're the virtues they're the quiet virtues that we overlook at our peril because to be able to sustain a career as long and as successful as what James has done requires modesty requires humility, requires the willingness to put the team above your own self-interest. And they're the quiet virtues, but actually they're the foundations of any successful team as well. And you can see why he's been so in demand by so many elite coaches.

1:19:53And he also didn't, because again, he is so modest, he didn't really go to town on the deep, deep hard work and the lengths he goes to, to get to the top and stay there. He was telling me beforehand, he used to have, or still does have, epidurals every three months because they dull down the pain receptor in his legs. Like, normal people are not doing that. Yet he doesn't even feel the need to tell us on the podcast that's what he's doing. Because he's so humble and he's so modest. And I think that that is probably why he was such a brilliant team player. And probably doesn't get the credit he deserves for the career that he's had so far.

1:20:29Yeah, well, he said that, didn't he? That he felt that, especially during that Manchester City period of his career, where actually some of these virtues probably didn't help him. You know, they were bringing in bigger names, more celebrated players for bigger salaries every year and he got relegated to the back of the queue. He'd gradually, quietly work his way back into the first team and then the season would start again and the whole pattern. So sometimes that can go against you, but then when you're so clear as he was about his values of the sort of person he wanted to be and who he stood for, I think that is why he maybe hasn't had the headlines but he's had the length and the respect in his career that he has And I think it was also really good to actually put some clarity around those big moments in his life I think Manchester City fans need to know that he was left a bit burned by a contract that took a long time to be offered and when it was initially offered the terms weren't great He has put meat on the bones around that lasso celebration that frustrated City fans so much he's explained in as great a detail as i've ever heard about how jrgen klopp first of all created and then sustained that winning mentality those mentality monsters at liverpool his mindset um is a huge reason why he's achieved what he has above and beyond his physical abilities yeah and if we think of it in a full circle his very first answer he gave was about high performance is at the stage and the age that you are, doing the best you can.

1:22:01And then his final answer about his golden rule was about going all in. Those two are not contradictory. So he gave the example, if you're going to run a marathon at 55, maybe your pace is going to be slower than you would have done it at 25. But you can still do the best marathon possible for a 55-year-old. And I think that's the message that I'd want anyone listening to this to come away from, is that you might not have the talent of James Milner, you might not have the interest in football that James Milner obviously has. But whatever it is, wherever you are, you can still achieve your version of high performance by taking the lessons of going all in, looking at the minutiae of detail and behaving with the real humility to whatever your ambition or goal is.

1:22:45I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much, mate. No, that was a real privilege, that one. Well, that's it. Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of High Performance. Don't forget, most people that listen do not subscribe. By subscribing, you help grow the channel and we can attract even more incredible names to come and have these kinds of conversations. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to remain humble, curious, empathetic, and find your own version of high performance. Thanks for listening.

1:23:25Thank you.

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