Jamie Laing on his battles with anxiety, reality TV, and building businesses (E262)

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance app. Available now, Roman Kemp, the broadcaster, opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health. I think I was obsessed with being famous because I thought, wow, wouldn't that be fun? If I had an outside perspective by myself, seeing a guy who's just done a reality show and I didn't really know much about him and then I saw him suddenly getting a Radio 1 job, I would just think, what a little prick. You have to stay strong even to that very last moment. Like, I always think, well, it's going to be okay.

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3:04Jamie, thanks for joining us. I feel very honoured to be here. That's nice. Yeah, dude, like, I mean... You listen. Yeah, and it's such a great show. And what I love about your show is the way that you... Because I think you're generally interested in people, and that really comes across. You're not just firing questions. you're actually just sort of navigating your way through your own interests, which then interests the listener because you're acting as a listener, which I like. No notes from me. Thank you very much. As the owner of some podcast behemoth business, I'm pleased with that. So let's navigate you and explore you then.

3:43As you listen, you'll know the first question. What is high performance? So I was thinking about it. And I wanted to come up with some great quote or something really good. and I think high performance is so individual to each and every one of us, right? I think high performance is just making sure that whatever you're doing, whatever area it is, is that you're doing it to your best ability. So if you're being a father or you're being a mother or you're being a brother or a friend or an engineer or a race car driver, as long as you're performing out of the space where you're going, no, I'm doing well here, that's high performance for me.

4:19So we've done pretty much 300 episodes now of this show. And we've worked out that high performance actually is three sentences. Doing the best you can where you are with what you've got. We all live with this idea of hindsight and this idea that if only I'd known this or if only I'd done that, life would be different. But you can't live like that. So all of us can really do is the best you can where you are with what you've got. And I think that that's what you've done. Do you think you're doing that? Yeah, because I don't think I can do anything else. One of the things I'm fascinated by regarding you is the diversity.

4:52that you can be not just a podcaster, but someone that's set up Jampot, your own podcast production business. You're someone who was on Made in Chelsea and was brave enough to walk away from that. You're someone who is on Radio 1. You're someone who has created Candy Kittens with your co-founder. And the only way that you can do all of those things, some of them at the same time, is to do the best you can where you are with what you've got. Or it's the... Or stretch yourself too thin. Do you feel who you are?

5:50in a way. And so then I think that's gone into life where now I've sort of found my space where I really love creating. Creating is the greatest thing in the world. It does have a negative effect, right? So because when you do have a sort of mind like I have, which is like constantly want to create, you do spread yourself too thin, where you're creating a sweet business or a production company. And then that's problematic, because you probably aren't giving enough attention to where things should be all the time. Let's explore that a bit further then. Because one of my opening questions for you was going to be, how do you juggle it all?

6:24It sounds like what you're saying is that you are juggling it all, but it doesn't mean you're not dropping the ball now and then. Yeah, I think, well, someone, there's a really good quote, which is like, do one thing and do one thing well, right? Whatever that quote is, right? Which I do kind of agree with in lots of ways. But I think that I have been incredibly lucky in the sense where I realized from an early age that I couldn't do everything myself. I realized what I was good at and bad at straight away. So at school, I realized I wasn't great at learning stuff, but I was really good at catching a rugby ball.

7:01So let's go towards that rugby ball and focus on that, right? Or I was good on the athletics track. So I realized that from a young age. So I had kind of that self-awareness, what I was good and bad at, which I don't think we all have a lot of the time. And for me, I quickly realized that going into business, that I was very creative, that I was pretty entrepreneurial, but maybe I wasn't the best businessman. So I quickly realized I would have to surround myself with good people. So for my confectionery business, Candy Kinnons, I have my co-founder, a guy called Ed Williams, who is everything that I'm not.

7:38He's calm. He's collected. He's not impatient. He's thoughtful. I'm all the other side. And so we run that very well together. So he helps me build that. And with the production side of things, with Jampot, again, I have a great team who help me along the way. So I'm not doing everything myself, but I am jumping around to make sure that everything is sort of building slowly but we have this amazing team that are helping build it. So what are you bringing to the table in both those businesses? Well, I think what you have to have in a successful business is you have to have, I mean, you have to have the compass, right?

8:18You have to know where you're headed. I remember when I first did Made in Chelsea. Man, it's just a show about being posh. And I was like, this is going to be wicked. You were like, that's easy for me. Yeah, I can do that. I'm already cast. This is going to be great. But I remember going into it, I remember thinking that I have to be different to everyone else because I can't just be a reality star. When did you make that realization? Well, it was naivety. I just sort of realized it because I was embarrassed about doing it. Truthfully. What were you embarrassed about? Well, because it was a reality show about being posh.

8:58And I was like, this is... but I was obsessed with I think it wasn't so much fame I was obsessed maybe I was obsessed with fame and I'm going to try and be really honest yeah please I think I was obsessed with being famous because why else would you do a reality show I think I was obsessed with being famous because I thought it would be so interesting because I thought wow wouldn't that be fun and so but then going into it I was embarrassed about doing it because I had been asked to do the first series and I said, I'm not doing that. And then I saw my friends who were on the show, Spencer, all those type of people, and I was like, oh, that looks really fun.

9:40But I didn't want to tell anyone that I was doing it because I was too embarrassed. So I knew if I was going to do it, I would have to find something different about me to bring to it that was an excuse why I was doing it. What did you find? Well, my excuse was setting up a confectionery company. So I'm doing it all because I can set up a confectionery company and that would give me marketing, you know, all of that. And I think going back to my the longest winded answer anyone can ever ask for is what is what do I bring to the table? It's that compass. I know with Candy Kittens where it needs to go and where we're headed all the time.

10:16And so I'm always constantly leading it in that direction. And with Jam Pot, it's the same thing. I know what we're trying to create and where we're trying to go. And as long as you have that compass that sort of i suppose captain doing that all the time then you kind of can go towards the space where you need to be a lot of people struggle with that they're like i don't know whether to think a year in advance a week in advance five years in advance i don't know whether to vocalize where i want this to go to the whole team i don't know whether to keep it internally i don't know whether once i've decided the direction whether i'm allowed to veer off course and hold my beliefs lightly or whether i have to be rigid to the plan so let's break them both down if i sit if i came for an interview with you today to work for Candy Kittens.

10:55Yeah. And I said to you as the co-founder, what's the vision? What would the answer be? Yeah, it's a really great question. I always have something called like a BHAG, which is kind of a well-known term, I think, which is a big, hairy, audacious goal. So what you're trying to achieve, right? And your BHAG can be anything you want. So I always say my personal BHAG is to host the Oscars. Nice. Yeah. It's a crazy, wild dream, right? Like, it's bizarre. But if you know that in your head, you're kind of like, okay, we're maybe heading towards it. For Candy Kittens, it's about being the biggest confectionery company in the world, but creating the best suite possible.

11:37So all of our suites are vegan. We're a B Corp, which means people, planet and profit are all the same value. We're recyclable as possible. We only use ingredients, which are the top ingredients. we only make we make our sweets in the best manufacturer in the entire world a company called Cactus Rich in Germany and everything we do within our culture and you know for our product and everything we only focus on making the best sweet and giving back to it sounds cheesy but we also want to give back to kind of the planet you know gone are the days where we think it's the government's responsibility to you know look after this world I think it's business's responsibility to do that so that's the vision for Candy Kittens to create the best suite in the world.

12:22Brilliant. Is that right? And it's really powerful as well. I'm interested in how that BHAG informs your decision making. Yeah. Do you know, my business partner introduced me to a guy who has a company called Does It Make the Boat Go Faster? Right. And it's so good, right? This is where he was a rower. Him and his friend were a rower. And in their boat, they would basically have this idea in their heads is does it make the boat go faster? So they would finish a rowing session and their friends would say, hey, let's go for some beers and a big curry. And in their head, they'd go, well, does it make the boat go faster?

12:57It doesn't, so we can't do that. Does wearing this heavy cotton jersey while rowing, does it make the boat go faster? No, it doesn't, so let's change it. So everything they were doing, they were thinking, well, does it make the boat go faster? And if it doesn't, they wouldn't do it. So for our BHAG, making the best suite possible, I always go back to that same thing. Well, is that going to help us make the best suite possible and the best company possible? If it's not, we're not doing it. and so that's how it helps you lead towards it all the time that you're constantly cutting out those things that may distract you prime example is when we first started um uh primark came to us and said we want to stock your sweets everywhere and we had no money like we had literally fuck all we had and we were really struggling and it was and boy it's hard you know it's really hard and they said we want to put you in all shops and all these kind of things and we said no because it didn't fit.

13:47We were a premium confectionery brand. And nothing against Primark, but they market themselves in a certain way and it just wasn't our price range was much higher than most of their, some of their clothes that they were having. So we didn't think it quite fitted. And it was very easy for us to say yes to it, but we said no to it because it didn't go towards our BHAG. And so for me, once you have that idea of where you're heading, that destination, that compass, that BHAG, you can kind of cut your way through all of the bullshit and know where you're going. I think. You said there that we had fuck all, we had no money.

14:22People don't understand your story. They don't really understand your background. Yeah. We'll talk about that in a moment. But I want to just talk about it. I get nailed for that. I know. Dude, I get nailed for that. Let's talk about it now then. Okay. Here we go. I get nailed for it. I read an article the other day. Okay. And it said that the one demographic that it's still okay to criticize openly are people who are wealthy or people who come from privilege. Yeah, probably fair. Does that ring true with your lived experience? Yeah, but I think so. But again, I always think this, right? Which is, if the hurdle that I have to, or the boulder that I have to carry is the fact that I'm posh and had a privileged upbringing, I mean, it's not the hardest boulder to carry in the world.

15:07I mean, people have this beyond worst. So for me, yeah, look, I grew up in a privileged household. I was incredibly fortunate, lucky. I didn't have to worry about food to be put on the table. I had a roof over my head. You know, I had all those things going on. The only sort of slight difference in my story is that people think I'm heir to McVitie's and that I have, I'm inheriting all these billions and millions or my parents helped me get into retailers. I mean, that is not true. And as I say this, I know I'm going to be nailed for it. But, you know, when we started Candy Kittens, we started with£3 ,000, my business partner and I.

15:47Our parents didn't believe in the vision because why the hell would you believe a 21 and 22-year-old that a sweet company's going to work? They were like, okay, go have fun, kids. And we had to sort of, you know, like every business, we had to find ways to make money, to sell things, to market ourselves. the huge advantage we had over other businesses and other things was that I was on a television show which you know was a huge risk at the time because it was about being posh and people either loved it or hated it there was no real in between and so straight away if you create a product like a confectionery product that you're going to eat either people were going to love it or they were going to hate it and even if it was the best thing out there and people still hated me they weren't going to buy it.

16:31So you're immediately alienating people away from you. But I am posh. I went to a boarding school at the age of eight. You know, I have a posh accent, but that's kind of who I am. And I think, do you know what? I think it's absolutely fine that people, you know, target, you know, myself in certain ways. Do you really? Well, at the beginning of this, you said, let's be totally honest. Okay. Oh, God. So let's just be totally honest. What do I think? I think it's very easy to criticise kids or people who have just haven't worked a day and they've inherited a lot and they just swan through life and not giving a shit about politics or people or haven't experienced anything else.

17:16I think what people do forget maybe sometimes is that there's been, in your family history, there's been someone who's worked their socks off to get to a certain place. And, you know, someone, you know, my family were part of McVitie's and my great-great-grandfather, a guy called Alexander Grant, it was an amazing entrepreneur business. Alexander Grant, he would get on the sleeper train from Scotland every single Sunday and get to the factory, the McVitie's factory on a Monday to greet everyone before it opened. And he would do that every single week because he just wanted to make sure that he was on the same level as everybody else.

17:54He fully believed it. He believed in equal rights for so long. He was an incredible, amazing guy. And he made, you know, a small fortune. But the problem with making a small fortune many years ago is that generations spend it. And so then, you know, we unfortunately, well, unfortunately, yeah, we don't, I haven't inherited any money. I went to a great school, but loads of people go to great schools. I went on nice holidays and things like that. But in terms of inheriting wealth, I unfortunately don't inherit any of that wealth. Do you see how cagey I get? Yeah, I find it very interesting because...

18:34What are your thoughts on it? Give it to me. My thoughts are that you shouldn't be ashamed of who you are or where you've come from. Yes. But you should also tell the story that removes the myth. Right. So the myth is you've inherited money, which you've spent to build your production company or to create candy kittens. and therefore everything's been easy. So I would say everyone can teach us something. What can you teach us? Well, you can teach us what it's like growing up in a house where your parents are divorced, you've got eight siblings, and you go to boarding school. How does that impact relationships?

19:06You can teach us actually how hard is it to set up a confectionery business in a world where there are huge confectionery companies already going. You can teach us what it's like to feel judged when you're on reality TV. You can teach us what it's like when you get a job on Radio 1 and everyone leans into the fact that you're privileged, which is the reason you got that job. And they give no credit at all to the hard work and the grind and the meetings and the conversations and the quest for personal improvement. That's where I think it's a shame for other people to judge rather than to listen.

19:36Yeah, but I think what happens is, and this is where I do appreciate it, right, is that people from an, unless you do a deep, we're all living our lives, right, every single time, all day, every day, and we all have our own boulders and our own problems and our own issues that we're dealing with on a day-to-day basis. And I think because of social media and the way that just life is, I think we compare ourselves constantly to each other all the time. And it's super unhealthy. You know, I had this statistic recently, which is we should have this village mentality, right? So you probably know this.

20:11We should know like 150 to 200 people. And the problem with social media is that we wake up and we are connected to a million people. and out of our village mentality we should have a usp unique selling point so the best at art or music or dancing or i don't know creating suites whatever it is so it's unique to you the problem with social media is that we that all disappears because if we're a comedian we're seeing better comedians or if we're a uh i don't know a builder we're seeing more better buildings being built so we lose all of that um so we're constantly comparing and i would definitely think that if I saw, if I had an outside perspective by myself, seeing a guy who's just done a reality show, he was on Made in Chelsea, and then going from there, and that's what I saw him doing, and I didn't really know much about him, and then I saw him suddenly getting a Radio 1 job, I would just think, what a little prick.

21:01Like, I would probably think that as well. So, I totally get it at the same time. It's because, you know, why, we're not that, we're interested in people who, man, we're interested in Shackleton. You know what I mean? We're interested in Churchill. Like that, you know, that's who we're interested in. Are we interested in the guy who's living who has done, you know, this and that? Not really, you know. And so it's quite hard. So articles go out, we're doing it. And of course you get backlash because people only see an outside spectrum. I don't expect everyone to deep dive into what I've done or what I've created or anything like that.

21:37And why should they? They have their own lives. So when I get the backlash and the criticism, I'm totally accepting of it. Firstly, because I did a reality show where you got that anyway. But secondly, because I put myself in their shoes and I go, yeah, I'd probably feel the same way if I was in their position or someone else's position to sing. I go, yeah, that's annoying. Like, he did a reality show and now he's doing Radio 1. Lucky idiot. Does it still hurt, though? Does it still hurt? No, because... Why doesn't it hurt? Let me remind you we're being honest in this conversation. Doesn't it hurt?

22:10Okay. Doesn't it hurt? does it hurt? not really honestly not really because I think I am confident enough in myself now to know that it wasn't there was a lot of luck but it wasn't just luck that I have worked hard and I I'm sort of again that cheese when I'm pretty proud of myself of what I've done and I've grafted you know with Radio 1 I went for an audition eight years ago and just slowly by slowly was just working all the time and learning the craft and understanding how it works and all those things. And, you know, with Candy Kittens and Jampot, you know, again, I've just, we've built that.

22:51Candy Kittens is 13 years old. We built it for 13 years, you know. And so I'm proud of what I'm, I'm comfortable with what I've done and where I am. So it doesn't hurt, no. And actually, I think it's important to have critics because if you don't have critics, then what you're really fighting against, and actually I think, not most, but there's a huge majority of people who are successful in whatever area that be are probably fighting against something. And you kind of need that. Are you sure you haven't just talked yourself into being okay with it? Because when I was doing football, every time I did a show, everyone just said, he's so smug.

23:25And again, I have to understand their point of view. If I saw someone standing on the telly talking to Paul Scholes and Michael Owen and Rio Ferdinand at a football game and being paid for it, I'd naturally assume they must be smug. But there was nothing further from the truth. If anything, I was riddled with imposter syndrome and fear, thinking today's the day I mess up my job. This is going to be the worst shot I've ever done. That's the lived experience. Did you have that every day? Yeah. Every time I did football, the criticism was wild. And you'd come off air and you'd be trending because everyone has an opinion about football.

23:51Wow. But you're in that, you're then sucked into that world of criticism. You know, often criticism of your performance as a TV presenter, but no one knows how hard that job is when you've got, you will, seven or eight voices in your ear, you're live, no auto cue. Things are going on all around you. How did that affect you? Oh, criticism on social media was the single biggest source of anxiety and stress and mental health challenges for quite a few years. Really? Yeah. It felt like being bullied when I was at school. It felt exactly the same. Just because someone is saying it to you on social media, people assume it's different to having it said to you in the street.

24:30It isn't. It's no different to someone coming up to you and saying, you're smug and I think you're shit at your job and I wish you'd get sacked. do you know what that's so interesting because also what people probably won't realize is that you you have to be in that situation you have to be so free-flowing and you have to be thinking on your feet all the time and when you're getting that criticism that's when you censor yourself and it's the death of creativity and so then you're so worried about what you're doing It sounds like you've been there.

25:03You know what? I think I was lucky. But hold on, I'm going to get, I don't want to say, because that's so, I just really, that's so interesting to me that you were dealing with that online abuse while having to perform on TV because I know what it's like. But I don't think that's unusual for people that do that job. I think football sport is different. It probably is. And you definitely are thinking in your head, if I ask this question, what is the general reaction? And that's such a dangerous place. Man, that's such a dangerous place. And let's say you with Radio 1, I think that felt unfair to me from the outside.

25:37I wonder whether it felt unfair to you, that particular criticism, how you dealt with it, and whether it ever did affect the way that you operated, spoke. Generally, I don't think it did because I was confident in my place, right? I was like, okay, here we go. it's going to be absolutely you know i'm going to power through this and it's going to be it's going to be great and i don't want to ruin my creativity or my randomness or the way i'm going to host this because if i start thinking about the critics it's going to be a hell hole in my head so i'm pretty resilient in that because i i suppose i've been through i've been through a lot of anxieties like and depersonalization and these pretty heavy things that i'm pretty resilient i want to talk about something you sort of mentioned and moved on from which is anxiety depersonalization which has built your resilience I've spent hundreds of these episodes seeing resilient people achieve greater things than talented people and we mustn't underplay the power of resilience in life and in success so can you talk to us a bit about the depersonalization, the anxiety and eventually what it did for you it's really interesting how you said that, how you've seen resilient people succeed more I think God, I think life is a lot about resilience and in so many different places, whether that's in a relationship or it's in business or it's in life or whatever it is.

27:06My journey with anxiety was really interesting and I'll sort of try and keep it as brief as possible. I was obviously an anxious child without realizing, right? Like, you know, I remember watching The Land Before Time when I was younger, which is a dinosaur, you know, cartoon and realizing that dinosaurs, if they died, they must have gone to heaven, right? And I remember going to my mom and dad afterwards and saying, are dinosaurs in heaven? And them saying yes, and then being afraid of death because I didn't want to see dinosaurs in heaven, right? That's the scariest thing about it. And that's quite an odd thing for a young child to be thinking, right, that coupled with like peeing the bed a lot, all those kind of things.

27:43And, you know, and then I went to boarding school, you know, send off at eight years old and like a sensitive kid, right? That's like not a good thing to do. And I would have a lump in my throat. Every time I went to bed at night, like this big lie, I felt almost like I was choking. Every night? Every night. At boarding school? Every night. Could you ring your parents and say, I need to come home? No, no, no, no. No mobiles, nothing. You couldn't phone them home for the first two weeks. We're allowed to see them and speak to them. Did you tell the teachers? No, I didn't tell anyone. Just kept it in.

28:12Nothing. So what that teaches you, firstly, is to internalize all your feelings, which is not very healthy. So I definitely internalized a lot throughout my life. But it does teach you to be resilient. I learned resilience very quickly because you have to be you can't wake up in the morning and all boys boarding school and cry are you kidding me? no way that's the death of you especially in those days right? you know I'm 35 now so that you know in whatever 98 or whatever it was and so that was obviously and someone interestingly someone had told me that's anxiety then at eight years old I probably would have then what that's like you know but I didn't so I was completely naive to it and there's something amazing about naivety right?

28:48if you're naive stuff you don't learn it you just go oh, I don't know what that was. Forget about it. Cut to being 23 years old doing Made in Chelsea. And, you know, probably overexcited. Twitter was starting to be around. And maybe, you know, I was out drinking a lot, but I had a panic attack. And, you know, like many people have experienced panic attacks, I thought I was dying. But this was an overwhelming sense of death. I was going to die. Took myself to hospital. How long was it lasting? Oh, my... I didn't stop. It was horrendous. But this is, I think this is a lot, you know, if I was going to be in my therapy session, it would probably be like a lot of years backed up, right?

29:33But I was a very outgoing, confident kid. Like, always sporty, always lively. Everyone going like, oh, Jamie, most energetic guy. You know, always like that. Panic attack kicked in. My life changed, honestly, like that. Went to hospital, said you're having a panic attack. I said, what do you do? They said, go and have a Coca-Cola and you'll be fine. and that was the advice that was the advice and I went home and it was the beginning of this journey which I now know now was general anxiety disorder GAD I didn't tell anyone again like being eight years old in boarding school with the lump of it didn't tell anyone so I would turn up to filming and it felt like I was in fear all the time it was just constant panic attack didn't stop that was for about six months and finally I was in the shower and I remember being in the shower and I just went out loud, what is wrong with you, Jamie?

30:25And I burst into tears, phoned my mom and said, I'm sick, don't know what's wrong with me. Took me to the doctor. They said, you have anxiety. I said, what's that? They said, well, it's, your adrenaline's high. You're in fight or flight mode. And I said, well, how do I get rid of it? And they said, well, I can't. You have to learn to accept it. Worst thing you could have said to me. I was like, what do you mean I have to learn? I can't live this. So I went from this, you know, not even like spontaneous thing to suddenly overthinking everything. Cut to many years later, just not dealing with, never therapy, was offered anti anxiety medication, never took it, just drank a lot, too much to suppress it.

31:04Next day I'd wake up, deal with it, drank again. That's how I'd deal with it while doing a television show all the time. Then at 27, I, because of the stress was so much, I got depersonalization, which basically is where your body has had so much stress. A lot of people who have PTSD, you know, they get it. Where your body goes into autopilot, where it protects yourself. So typically, you feel like you're floating outside of your own body. And that's what I felt like. So I felt like my body was, I wasn't connected to my body. And I would see myself walking around. And I always had this blurry vision.

31:41And it lasted for six months. Would it come and go? No constant. I wouldn't want to open my eyes in the morning because if I opened my eyes, I would see a fog. It's awful. It's like, it's hectic. That sounds hellish. It was actually pretty hellish. And for anyone who is suffering with it, it's very scary because you feel like you're going mad. The only conclusion you put in your own mind is you're going mad. So I went to a psychotherapist at last, took myself to one. And they said, you have depersonalization. And I went, okay. And they said, well, you can get it when, you know, this, this, this.

32:14so I went okay fine I said well how do I make it go again instant I want to how do I make it go he says you have to accept it what do you mean I have to I can't six months went by and I went on holiday and I went on holiday I can't remember where I went on a beach holiday and I relaxed and it lifted it was like it was like someone turned a switch off just lifted and I was like what and that was my start of then going into therapy and understanding about myself and being self-aware and realizing what things I was doing to body, what negatively positive things. Yeah, and I've done therapy pretty much on and off since I was 27 years old.

32:54And for me, it's the greatest thing in the world. And I was asked each other day, if everyone could have one thing, I would say therapy. Because it's so important just for self-awareness, for relationships, for business, for life. It's taught me so much. It's taught me to be kinder. It's taught me to be more empathetic. It's taught me to be wiser about myself. and look, you know, for me, it was a really tough experience and also being on a television show and having to be hyper and hiss and ha and what's up and oh my God all the time as well as feeling that in your back locker all the time. It's like your mind is there but you're putting on the show.

33:30But at the same time, it's made me incredibly resilient and I think that's what's driven my success is this resilience that I've had from having to deal with those sort of emotions that I've had throughout my 20s, I suppose.

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35:52We have a lot of men, particularly, that listen to this podcast. Yeah. That either are currently or have struggled with their mental health. Yeah. And it's something that we're almost more proud of than anything else, that this podcast has become a safe space for men to listen and then reach out to us actually and say, say, look, your show was the reason why I went and got help or that I didn't feel alone. But for people that haven't yet reached that point and are listening to this conversation, what is the biggest thing from therapy that you'd like them to hear from you that really lifted the veil, if you like, and made you realize that you're actually okay?

36:32yeah it's a it's a it's a great question i think the um the the worst thing for me for just from a personal point of view was um when they said to me you're gonna have to learn to live with it you have to learn to accept it that was the worst thing in the world it's also the best thing you can hear because um for someone suffering right now who is listening to this they are feeling shocking. And the scary thing about mental health is that you feel like you can't see the end. It's a cloudy day and you can't see the blue sky. I promise you this blue sky is there. You just have to find a way through the clouds to get back to it.

37:10It may take a day, a week, a year, two years, you will get there. And the acceptance is the biggest thing. For me, as soon as I started to accept who I was, okay, I have anxiety, but that's absolutely fine. It's not going to kill me. It's not going to hurt me. It's going to be absolutely fine. As soon as I started accepting that, that was the road to freedom. And I was like, okay, fine. So when someone says you have to learn to live with it, take that as a blessing that you will learn to live and it'll make you a better person. And I just really, truly believe that it will get better. God, I'm quite emotional at the moment.

37:50I don't know why anyway. So whenever I talk about this stuff, it makes me a bit emotional. But that's all right.

37:57But I think I'm emotional just because a lot going on. Why are you apologizing for being emotional? I don't know. I don't know why. Isn't this exactly what men should be doing? Having this kind of conversation without needing to apologize for it? Yeah, you're so right. Biggest thing for me ever. It makes me emotional because he's just such a great friend. I have a great friend. called Toby. Man, he's just the best. And I've been friends with him since university. And he... Yeah, I don't know why I get emotional at this point. You're making me feel emotional. Yeah, but I don't know why I do. Anyway, he...

38:33I was having a really tough time. And it was awful. Like, I was just all over the place anxious. Didn't know... I didn't understand it. And he... I phoned him up. I hadn't... I just hadn't told anyone anything. And I phoned him up. and I didn't, I thought I was going to be judged or I was going to be this and that. I thought I was alien. I said, I said, call him Bubble. And I went, Bubble, I'm not feeling good. And I was crying and he was like, you okay? And I was like, I'm not feeling good. And he paused and he said, don't worry, we'll go through it together. It was the greatest thing in the world.

39:07I got this echo back. And I was like, man, okay, you sure? He was like, 100%. And he phoned me every day, checking in. You okay? You want to talk about it? All the time. And so I encourage any dude out there, any guy or any person listening to this or any woman, anyone at all, just speak to someone. It doesn't matter if it's a neighbor, it's a friend, it's your mom, it's your dad, it's someone online, just talk. Because it honestly comes out like breath. It makes you just feel better. So I encourage anyone to talk, always. And I think that it's easy to look at that period of your life and say that I hated that period of my life.

39:49It was hard. It was difficult. But also you have to accept that the things you've been through since that have required resilience, those things might have been a lot harder if you hadn't used this period to build resilience. You know, we often talk about the fact that things that are hard for you are not necessarily bad for you. And, you know, you've said that I've heard you in other interviews talk about the real lows of trying to build a business with Candy Kittens. And I wonder whether if you hadn't been through this period that required some real deep work, whether you'd be able to have coped with those difficult times building a business?

40:23Well, I think we have to, you know, we have to be comfortable feeling uncomfortable. I think we really have to. Like life is not easy. It's hard. It doesn't matter where you're sitting, where, who you are. It's hard, right? We're going to go through heartache. We're going to go through death. We're going to go through probably illnesses. We're going to go through disasters, whatever it is. And we have to accept that. and you know i do think we've become a bit comfortable you know and that is the constant theme that we sort of keep hearing is that we're too comfortable and i really think we are and yeah i think you know especially in business right man i i applaud anyone just you know this is your business right like i applaud you because i know how hard that you have to sit here you have everything else going on but you have to sit here and you have to be in the moment and you have to chat to someone and you have to run this and you have to sort this and you have to make sure the cameras are here and you also have to go and so I applaud you for for doing that and it doesn't matter if you have a cream shop in Cornwall or you're running Tesla like I just applaud what you're doing and and um yeah the resilience is is everything you have to be resilient in life and if I hadn't gone through those hard things you know eight years old boarding school as much as that probably people just go you went to boarding school whatever for me that was hard right just for me personally but that built my resilience and you know candy kittens we struggled impossibly hard at the beginning tell us man okay okay selling a suite first yeah try and make a suite google that how the fuck do you make a suite like you're kidding me um you know you have to go to a manufacturer you have the manufacturer has agreed to make your suite for you that suite needs to be the mold that you want.

42:10You have to pay money to make that happen. Your margins in confectionery are so low. In FMCG, fast-moving consumer goods, the things you see in supermarkets, typically the margins are super low, really low, right? So you're constantly on this line, which is either you're going to dip below the negative or just go above profit. It took us 12 years to make profit. 12 years, constantly banning the things. And we had this time where I was very lucky about this second year my stepfather a guy called Jonathan Baines great guy amazing guy he's chairman of Cannington he was chairman of Cannington he's chairman of Jampot just amazing person and he's hard right very hard but you need that you need that especially at a young age he made us treat the business like it was a proper business even though tell me some of the lessons you learned from him and his hardness in business I mean what did we learn be reliable 100 % if you say you're going to do something do it make sure you understand a P &L.

43:07I still don't. But like... Same. Yeah. You make sure that you are delivering on everything that you should be doing, that you are checking contracts, that you are creating a great culture. All these little things that we had no idea about, he built into us. And there was this one time we're about two years in and he had just come on board and he was looking through our cash flow. And he told us, you know, he made us realize that in business, unfortunately, cash is oxygen. You have to, you know, you have to have cash in order to breathe. And he said, look, this business is not going to work. So unless you can find a way of selling more sweets or getting more cash, this business is going to die.

43:52How did that feel? It was awful. It was actually really bad because I was with my business partner. My business partner, Ed had taken a complete risk. He's a great businessman, a great entrepreneur. Amazing. And he had a design company out of Loughborough University and he took a risk. And, you know, I was doing Made in Chelsea. I was drunk, you know, like a lot of the time, all these things. And he had given up his life to take this risk with me. And we were walking back from my stepfather's office, which was in sort of Green Park at the time. And we were walking back, and we had no money. And I said to Ed, I said, please don't leave me.

44:29And he went, if I have to sell sweets for my bedroom, I will. And that is what you need in a business. You know, most businesses fail because you lose your bottle. You go, I'm out of this. You have to stay strong, even to that very last moment. You know, even if you've got 50 quid in the bank account, you're still alive keep going keep going and I really think that actually most people and again I don't I don't want to sound cheesy but most people fail because their persistence dies they stop putting one foot in front of the other and if it was you know easy everyone would do it and it's just not but that teaches you that resilience 100 % you've got to keep going you've got to keep and sweets my god is it hard but you get to 10 years and you start to see the light.

45:21And there's amazing things that happen throughout the way. Oh my God, like you get your first waitress or someone comes up to you and goes, oh my God, I love your sweets. Those little moments are amazing. I imagine always that running a company is like having a newborn where you have this new baby and you're just trying to keep it alive. You have no idea what you're doing and you're like, this is the most hectic thing in the world. And then suddenly the baby laughs at you and you go that's great and then it shits on you but like you know whatever that happens and that's what business is like it's like just keep it alive keep it alive and then you get to a certain point where you get these little bits and at a certain point you suddenly go oh my god we've actually had a year and we've made a little bit of money what was your certain point then when did that happen oh my god when was the point where we suddenly were like oh this might work 10 years in I'm not even kidding you 10 years We always had the belief.

46:17And had you made any money in that 10 years? I didn't pay myself for eight years. Not one penny from the business. Because if I paid myself, we wouldn't be able to employ another person. We wouldn't be able to, my business partner wouldn't have been paid the amount that he should be being paid. I was making money doing a television show. So keep that money in there. And I also risk, you know, I would do these things back in the day called PAs, which were personal appearances, which, my God, they were just hilarious, where you would just turn that to a nightclub and wave and then get paid to do it.

46:55And every money, I would just put that back into business. Every time, that would go back in, that would go back in, that would go back in. And I think after 10 years, we were stocked in all retailers, and we had just done an awareness of the brand. and yeah we did a summer party and we felt oh you can feel it we i don't know what it is you can just feel things you know when your podcast is doing well you can just feel it you get momentum you just yeah you just go oh it's okay i just feel it i don't know why i feel it at the moment then sometimes we go we're not feeling it but i can feel i can just feel it oh it's it's suddenly however that then brings other problems which is where you then go okay well you're now a bigger companies who you've got you know we employ 30 people nearly you know it's 30 lives you've got to look after and that adds a whole nother headache to it but at the same time most rewarding thing in the world and that's what's incredible about it i interviewed richard ransom recently and he's a great guy great guy and he said what he's learned is that if you can work out to run one business you can just replicate the model again and again and again i'm really interested as well in jam pop productions because you you're similar to me in the way that you're okay with walking away from things you walk away from made in chelsea when a lot of people would have clung on to that you walk away from private parts really successful podcasts a lot of people again would have not taken the risk and come on to it so the first question is your relationship with risk taking yeah i reckon if you said to me now if we had a couple drinks and you were like should we go and put everything on red i reckon there's a chance you could persuade me to do it that's my risk taking because i always that's why you need business partners completely so you you get brought down because I'm, I'm, I'm a, but as I get older, you know, the risk becomes less attractive.

48:40I think it's like when you're a kid, you climb to the top of the tree. And then when you're in your 30s, you climb halfway up the tree. You're a bit like, well, that's a bit scary getting all the way up there. I have a huge appetite for risk. And I totally believe with what you said that Richard Branson said is that once you do one thing there, you can rep it. It doesn't mean they will both be successes, but you can still replicate it. And take Private Parts, for example, which was a podcast that I did for many years, which was an interview show that changed a lot of times and different things like that.

49:13And the reason why I left that is because, truthfully, I didn't own it. I tried to buy it and the other production company didn't want me to have it, which is totally fair enough and so i walked away from it um because and it was making lots of money and it was very successful and all these same things but i didn't feel right in my bones and i wanted to then have a show that i owned that i had full creativity over that i could do my way and so i said right well i'm going to walk away and i launched my new show which is called great company um which is an interview show and um i did it because i knew that one was private parts was tired and it wasn't right it didn't feel good and you have to be able to do that you have to be able to learn to walk away from different things as well 100 whether it's made in chelsea whether it's that podcast because i think we cling on to stuff we cling on to relationships we cling on to friendships sometimes we cling on to businesses because we think it's and actually some of the most of the time it's worse for you.

50:14That's not a decision based on data because the data was this makes money and the data was people are listening. It made me feel good. So how do you instinctually work out when to make a decision? Because I think a lot of people get the feeling but they're not brave enough to go, do you know what, I'm walking. Because it's always going to be okay. I really, like, it always, like, okay. We were talking about this before the show. What is the most important thing is like health and happiness. It really is. And I'm so sort of lucky that I'm sort of slightly figuring that out now. Like, I definitely did not think that for so long.

50:52But like now, health and happiness is so important. And yeah, and look, we want to be, you know, having cash in your bank is vital because it means you can get a plane ticket and buy a pizza and pay your mortgage or pay your rent or whatever it is. But health and happiness is fundamentally the best thing in the entire world. And if something is not making you happy and something is not making you fulfilled and whatever that is, you've got to walk away because there will be something else. And I heard a great quote, which is when one door closes, look for the window. There's always a window. And just climb through that window.

51:28Get through that window. It'll be somewhere. Just find it. Someone said that to me. I was like, that's so great. And so when I shut the door on private parts, I knew there was going to be another opportunity. It was just about finding where it is. so I always think that things are going to be okay but you've got to have that positive mindset right I think as humans we're like as humans we sit in this sorry as I ramble on but maybe because I'm passionate about it but as humans we're so built within us to be aware like that you hear a noise behind you and you think you're not going to think that oh that's my neighbor you think oh what was that but actually we think more positively like I always think well it's going to be okay so we're going to be great oh no it's going to be fine we're going to kill it it's good even if I actually don't think it I still say it because I almost lie to myself to think that's what's going to happen I think that's how I treat this sort of risk it's going to be okay so are you an optimist?

52:25massively yeah man are you kidding me? I saw this this person the other day on this podcast I don't know what it was they they were very unwell and the person said to them they were like do you not hate God, the world that you're the person that's unwell and they went no because if someone said to me that I could go to this place called Earth and I could experience laughter and love and sadness and happiness and hug people and I could only experience for just a little bit would I take it? 100 % and I was like fuck it's so true like so I always go like life is hard and shit things happen and oh my god and out of so many things I've had such a blessed life and that's so amazing but we get to experience this thing called life and that's pretty cool Jesus I sounded really good are you sure my god I sound like some like some sort of but I do yeah I think so yeah we were joined recently by a guy called Robin Sharma on the podcast amazing guy and he said isn't he the best most people live the same year 80 times over and call it a life and that's a really good way of looking at it it's about what you're doing with those days with those hours with those minutes it's not about how many of them you get his book The Monk Who Sold His Ferrari what book?

53:44it like spoke to me that book honestly dude it like spoke to me I was like are you kidding me? well listen to his episode I can't wait it's really good sadly we're pretty much out of time is that it? well you have a radio show to host shit but before you go I've got some quick fire questions for you out of all your interviews has this been where has this been? This is right up there. Are you serious? I'll tell you afterwards but there's a lot of parallels between the life you've lived and mine. Really? Yeah, loads. Your three non-negotiable behaviours that are really important for you to live the life you live and have the mentality you have.

54:17Oh my God. Three non-negotiable things. Okay. Exercise. Right. I think 100%. I didn't exercise. I played a lot of sport and then when I turned 26 I went to a spin class and I walked out of it and I was like what is this feeling? I haven't felt this endorphins for ages so I try and exercise all the time for me that's non-negotiable got to do it 100 % that connection is everything connect you have to and not connect on social media or on phones in person you probably know this but for people who don't they did a study of a happiness study right and it these social experiments normally fail after 10 or 4 or 20 years because funding runs out or people get bored or people die.

55:08They did this test. It lasts 100 years and they took 700 and something people from different places, different walks of life. And they followed them throughout their entire life, checked them every two years to find out what makes them happy. And at the end of the test, after 100 years, they found out that it wasn't fame or wealth or these things that we think make us happy. It was the people who had better connections with family and friends. they were the happiest 100 % so for me it's connection it's fitness and health fitness and exercise and the third one is doing something that I love I have to wake up and go I really love this I mean and yeah it's tough and it's hard and it's shit some days and some days are great and some days are bad but fundamentally do I really like it for me that's it connect fitness and something I love and that's okay your biggest strength and your greatest weakness Oh my God.

56:01Biggest strength, my resilience. For sure, I think. Really resilient for what we chatted about. Biggest weakness, still have the issue with wanting to be loved and people-pleasing. And that's a real negative in lots of ways. Yeah, but with an empathetic head on when you've gone to boarding school, your parents have got divorced and you're one of eight children, I think. That was always going to be the case, right? That was always the case. but Steve Jobs said that if you want to be loved then you run a business with velvet gloves and that's an issue and I think I'm I want to be liked too much and that's sometimes an issue What's the greatest piece of advice you've ever received?

56:42Oh wow

56:47I chatted to Phil Wang the comedian once and he said there's a Hebrew saying which a man went to a jeweler and he asked the jeweler to make a well man sick and a sick man well and a happy man sad and a sad man happy. And so the jeweler went away and brought him back a bracelet. On it was written, this too shall pass. And this too shall pass 100 % is the greatest thing because you're the most popular, it will pass. You're the least popular, it will pass. You're the happiest, it will pass. Everything always passes, but that's a good thing. And it always comes back round. So for me, that's that for sure.

57:25I love that. Yeah. It's fantastic. If you could go back to one moment in your life, where would you go and why? 18 years old in Iguazo Falls. It's on the border of Argentina and Brazil. And if you don't believe in God, go there because you'll think God exists. It's the most magical place. And I remember sitting with my friends and just thinking, this is the happiest I've ever been. It was unbelievable. That moment was big. And the final question, the thing after this brilliant conversation, you'd like to leave ringing in people's ears and spinning around in their heads. I guess you're one golden rule for living a high-performance life.

58:04I think going back to that quote, this too shall pass, I think honestly whatever you're going through right now, take this away, whatever you're going through, maybe it's business struggles or it's your personal struggles or it's relationship struggles or it's your friends or your kids or your brothers or whatever struggles. As much as it seems awful right now, and it probably is awful, I promise you it gets better and you move forward and you just have to, all you have to do is one foot in front of the other. Just keep moving forward. And if you keep moving forward, it'll be okay. Just keep going, just keep going, keep going.

58:33And I think if you take that from this episode, yeah, that's one thing that I think is always great advice. Brilliant. Jamie, thank you so much. Thank you so much.

58:46And that's it. Listen, thank you so much as always for joining us on High Performance. The only thing I ask from you is that you hit follow, you hit subscribe, you add to the ever-growing community of people who are listening and enjoying these conversations. Stay humble, stay curious, stay empathetic, and keep chasing your own version of high performance.

59:23Thank you.

59:53The current future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.