Joe Hart: Leading from the back, how I overcame disappointment to retire at the top (E268 Part 1)

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance app. Available now, Roman Kemp, the broadcaster, opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health. I am just a young guy, happy guy from Shrewsbury, who grew up playing football. Didn't play for any other reason than I loved it. Loved it. And then also, I'm a high-level goalkeeper who stands in goal for some serious teams, has some very important people look back and think, don't worry, Joe's taking care of it. It's just a million miles an hour, million miles an hour. next game, fighting for this title, playing for England, tournament, love it.

0:35So when you get the message from Pep Guardiola that you're not the right man for him. It was a great man who had a vision that I didn't fit into. It was frustrating. When you reflect on your England career. All the times that we went out at tournaments, we just fell the wrong side of tight games at the tournament. See you later, pack your bags, off ski. That is former England keeper Joe Hart. This is High Performance, the show that unlocks the minds of the most fascinating people on the planet. We had such a wide-ranging and emotional conversation with Joe that we decided to release this in two parts.

1:07So welcome to part one, where we look back at the early days of his incredible career. I'm Jake Humphrey, and alongside Damien Hughes, on this show we learn from the stories, struggles, and successes of our guests, allowing us all to find our own version of high performance. So welcome to the show, Joe Hart. But first, a few quick messages from our valued partners who allow us to offer you this content absolutely free. I've got some exciting news for high-performance app members. We're releasing two episodes early every week for free. Head to the app right now to watch next week's guests exclusively before anyone else.

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2:33You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu This episode is brought to you by Opera Air, the first browser with mindfulness at its core. Now, most of us spend hours every day online, but how often do we pause to take care of ourselves whilst we're doing it? And that's where Opera Air comes in. It's a lightweight, fast, secure browser built not just for productivity, but for your well-being.

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3:31How you doing? I'm good, thank you. It's nice to see you again. You too. Now, can I just interject here because I want to make sure that last time you two saw each other, you was having a crack at him. I was. It wasn't actually. No, we've worked together since. Have we? that did yeah no we worked together on BT or whatever it's called now oh yeah I remember you came and did a game yeah you're right but go on Joe tell us the story I want to hear your version of this I can't believe you've gone here straight away at the beginning you want to hear how I was feeling at the time right okay so I am mid-twenties pumped up on life pumped up on football pumped up on adrenaline Jake's coming to the sport he's working for new channel BT trying to do things a little bit different I think it's fair to say and I was watching you present and I felt like you were close to trying to kind of making a joke of everything of a lot of people that I had a lot of love and a lot of respect for and I felt protected from.

4:29We had a player called Martin D. Micheleis who came and did a great job. He was Manuel Pellegrini signing and he wasn't playing out of his skin, let's say. A few things were happening his way. Played in the FA Cup, Wigan. I was on the bench. it was the FA Cup I think we lost I think we might have lost the game at the Etihad and Martin had given a penalty away and there was a lot there was a lot going on around his name at the time and I think the chairman of Wigan you interviewed him after Rosler so I if you remember Uwe Rosler was the manager right and he played at Man City and named his son Colin because he loved Colin Bell that was it remember this and I and you're totally right I was making a joke about the fact that he'd named his son Colin Bell and I said to him maybe you'll name your next son Martin after Martin Di Michele's one year's game?

5:17So I'm in the gym because I wasn't playing. I always like to work out after because I prepare for the game like I should on the bench. Wasn't playing. A lot of energy. And I was watching it and I heard you say that. And I was Richard Wright was the third choice goal at the time and he saw me. I was like, I'm not having that. I said I don't like it when people talk about someone and they can't defend themselves because Martin would never do English TV. And he was like, Joe, just let it go. I said how can I sit in here get annoyed at Jake and he's 30 yards away I said I'm going to go and say something he was like please don't go and say something I said no I feel like I've got to say something otherwise it won't sit well with me so I walked out waited for you I think we're still live on air at this point and this is the first I've become aware of this because I'm with Steve McManaman and we're standing there we're doing our presenting and Maka goes fucking hell what the fuck's up with him and I turned around and I went, oh, bloody hell.

6:16And Joe was like 20 yards away. I think you were with one of the press officers or something. He was like 20 yards away. And I am not joking. The stare was intense. And he was locked on. And I said to Steve, I said, Steve, I think you've pissed him off. Honestly. Because we couldn't tell. He was just looking at us, but he was like, there was no blinking. The eyes were like this. And then we stayed on air. And I don't know if my memory is the same as yours, but we came off air and immediately the press officer comes over to me and she goes, hi, Joe would like a word with you. Go on, Joe, you take it on from there.

6:50Yeah, so I asked for a word. Obviously, looking back now, it shouldn't have riled me up that much. Maybe I had something going on with me. I don't know, but I just felt like I needed to let you know. I just said, Jake, you've got a very important role in our world. I think you've just come over from F1, right? That's right, yeah. You've got a very important job in our world and I felt recently that you were almost making a joke of some some things that people are really working hard to do and putting themselves on the line I said Martin for example I said I don't even think Martin understands or would even know what you've just said but I need to stand up for him and I don't think that's acceptable that you're making a joke of him having a bad game and I just I didn't even know what I was saying but I just said I wanted you to be aware that we're not cool with that I didn't know why I thought I was talking for the whole whole football world but but yeah to be fair you took it on you obviously didn't want to offend me you weren't on TV to offend anyone but I just wanted to let you know that maybe not everyone's got a voice but you're right and I thought it was a brilliant bit of leadership actually I mean at the time I was just shitting myself because do you remember they took us down and took us to the manager's office in the tunnel didn't they yeah they did yeah and I sort of have this memory in my head of we're not a dissimilar height but I have this memory of Joe being like four feet taller than me leaning over the top like wild eyes like bulging muscles and you said exactly that and what I thought was interesting for me anyway because I was new to football is you said the people in there are trying their best and they are human beings that make mistakes and it doesn't help them or anyone else at home to make a joke or make light of that and I think I tried to sort of defend myself and say look we're trying to make entertainment as well as football do you remember?

8:30and we shook hands and left it at that but we actually wrote about this you know in our in our first book I told the story of this in our first book. Right, okay. Just because I thought it was a really interesting insight into you as a leader. And I just wonder when you first kind of, when you first took on that mantle of thinking, no, I'm going to stand up for my teammates, my football club, the sport I love. I don't know. I've always kind of felt that way. I've always felt, I suppose, starting to reflect now that I'm not a goalkeeper. I do look at things from a goalkeeper point of view. That's how I see life.

9:06I'm very protective. I want to help. I want to be the last line of defense, if you like. And that sounds cliche, but that's literally how I live my life. And especially with teammates and starting to come into environments where not everybody has a say. I've been a foreigner. I've played in a foreign league where stuff could be going on around me and I could be completely oblivious. Like someone could be absolutely slaughtered and sat next to me and I wouldn't know. And Martin was my example. I feel bad bringing his name because he did exceptional. and we won the league with Martin Di Michele and he's had a fantastic career.

9:35He just happened to be the guy that I didn't feel like he would have a voice. And I felt awful and I always have that I was saying these things about you and I was 20 meters away. I was a few walls away, but I said, why would I sit in here saying that when I could go and have a conversation with you and I'd like to think I'd calm down enough to try and get the point. I wasn't like, you can do whatever you want. You can be whoever you want to be, but I just felt it was important that I said it because three weeks later, if I was sat there watching and another TV presenter was doing it and I thought I had a chance to say something.

10:11But isn't that how life should be anyway? Isn't this how relationships should work? Like it was actually a brilliant moment for me because it was the beginning of my life in football and Formula 1 probably is more entertainment and it was a great sort of reminder for me that this is different, you know? Yeah, well, I don't know. I don't know whether I was wrong or whether I was right or whether it is an entertainment business, but that was how I felt and I just felt wrong to say something especially about you when I could pull you and say it to your face and I really did mean it from the best possible way even if I was pumped up and probably looked a bit stupid at the time But I'm interested in like there's hard and easy decisions and the easy decision is maybe don't say anything or if I bump into Jake I'll pull him up and you've very deliberately chosen the hard decision of I'm going to go and have this conversation have you always done that or was that something that developed throughout your career?

11:05I don't know I honestly don't know I've not really got too much in-depth recollection of how I've always behaved in those situations maybe in school let things slide I don't know but since I've played football and since I've realised that having kind of communication with people like things can be solved really quickly and I definitely want to give that an opportunity so like i say if jake chose to just say shut up i'll do my job however i want to i'd have been fine with that you know i can't tell him what to do but i wanted to just give it the best opportunity because i thought it was the best thing for everyone i thought it was the best thing for you even though again i can't tell you what to do well i think it was absolutely i thought it was the best thing for me because it stopped me from being angry when when i saw a a TV presenter or a pundit saying things that I didn't agree with.

11:58So take us into the mind and the world of Joe Hart at that time, because this is 2014. That was an FA Cup quarterfinal, wasn't it? At that point, you're the England guy, you're the City guy, you've won the FA Cup, you've won the Premier League. What was life like for you at that point? It was a lot of fun. It was intense. It was crash, bang, wallop, all sorts of things happening. But it was an amazing time to be alive, an amazing time to be a young guy who loved playing football. I was getting every opportunity under the sun and I felt like if I really was at it and at my best then the opportunities were endless.

12:38And was it easy? Like were you in flow at that time? Were the decisions on the pitch coming easy for you? See that's probably a moment in 2013. I'd say up until the age of 26, 27 I just progressed I'm talking from 11 12 13 14 with the first team 18s training with the first team reserves turn 15 first team city loan play England 21s and I was literally just taking steps up this ladder just through hard work believing in what I was doing and not really thinking too much and then 2014 start of that season I was useless I had this kind of block where I started the season and I didn't feel right I felt that I was second guessing myself having never done that professionally ever always even even in a mistake just kind of like whatever I'll just I'll just carry on playing flow was there and interesting you said flow because that's a big thing for me I was jittery start the season actually got taken out of the team by Manuel Pellegrini early on in his career a new goalkeeper coach had come in we were kind of clashing a little bit and I got taken out of the team which was the first time in my life my career I'd ever been removed from a team and it was a hundred million percent the right thing to do and obviously I stormed into the office and I you know why have you done this in my head I'm going thank god you've done this this is the right time to do this excellent from you because not easy like you said you just gave the list of of who I was and what I was and what I was to Manchester City and he said Joe you just need time out you're not right he said I don't know you well enough but I know enough to know that you're you're not playing to your potential right now and you're you're hurting the team which is the perfect thing to say to me because if someone says that then not a problem uh I said look I don't agree with you I do agree with you but what will it take to sort this out he said look I'm not banning you from the team I'm not taking you out I'm not you know you're not banished I just feel like you need a moment um so I said right okay I'm gonna go I'm gonna work on myself and I want to stay in regular dialogue with you and then brilliant for my agent at the time I obviously called him told him what was happening I said I'm you know because in the build-up to that happening.

15:04I'd been poor for probably three or four games, like poor. It all culminated in a mistake against Chelsea. We lost 2-1. Nostasic, ball through ball. I came but didn't come. Then he saw me come but didn't see me stop. So he's gone to head it back to me. Then I came again. It went over my head. Torres knocked it in, lost 2-1. And you still remember it like it was yesterday? 100%. I remember the Drake song when I put my headphones on and I pressed play and it was don't think about it too much. And I started laughing to myself because I was like, you're a mess but it was funny it was like I could I could see the funny side of what was going on and I was like well I'm a real problem at the moment I'm a real problem for this team I need to come out and I need to I need to work out what's going on um anyway so spoke to spoke to my agent he suggested have you ever thought about you know talking to someone because he knew that I was all professional roots goalkeeper roots I was trying I was I was exhausting like I'm always going to try as hard as I can I said you know I'd love that I'd absolutely love that uh So we reached out.

16:05Quite ironic how it works with Brendan Rodgers here, and he won't mind me saying. Brendan was the manager of Liverpool at the time, and my agent's link was to Dr. Steve Peters, to which he reached out. And Brendan, he was working exclusively with Liverpool at the time. So Brendan said, look, I can't let Joe have him, but I'd never like to leave a player in need. I've got another suggestion. I've got Jamie Edwards, who's a mental coach. I was like, yeah, cool. I appreciate that. obviously I wasn't in dialogue but that's what got told to me when sat down with Jamie and well you probably know more about this Damien and he just he asked me about myself told him you know it was one of those meetings where we don't know how it's going to go and obviously three hours later I'm waffling away like listening to myself kind of answer the majority of all the questions that I've got worked out that it's not necessarily the ability it's just the clarity of what you need in the game clarity of what you need off the field and then we started this kind of beautiful adventure of of learning more about myself and learning more about kind of control and um and the the best way of getting the best possible version of me which doesn't mean the perfect me it just means the best possible version and we went on that um made a great point like i just referenced i'd had a new goalkeeper coach at the time xavi who's still at manchester city and we were he came in with a new style a new style that he was really keen on and he'd never played and it's a wide leg stance that you'll see you'll see edison and stefan ortega you see them take it up and without being boring and going into it too much though but it didn't suit me i was more neutral and i felt really comfortable in how i was playing but he asked me to just try it and i told him that i was quite comfortable in my neutral and he said yeah that's cool because he's a very funny character when i got to know him and he was like right that's cool but just try it I was like this isn't going to win well because you've seen how I am at that time in my life I'm like well I think this is what's best for me anyway so we're butting clashing and then three months into the season Jamie went who's your new goalie coach?

18:05told him Shabby he went tell me about Shabby and I went I said what do you mean? he said well tell me about his family I said I don't know anything about his family he went right well what chance have you got no what chance have you got working with a guy that you're not interested in personally i said i bet he knows about your family i was like well yeah i've talked about mine he said why don't you just open a conversation why don't you just like why don't you just open the door with him so i said you know what i'd love to do that and i walked obviously charged in we'd been passively aggressive working together we'd been working together fine like no one would have known but i know when i get on with someone how i behave and he probably is the same asked him for a coffee next thing i know i find out about his family find out about how he works he's asking me how I'm working shoulders are dropping I'm saying look I know I'm out of the team at the moment I'd love to get back in and what your style is I'd love it if we could just kind of bring a little hybrid version I can do that for you not a problem next minute we're working together in and then some of his ideas are great some of them I still use to this day some of them I don't but that's life again some of them he liked from me same with Manuel uh how how how's your relationship with Manuel Pellegrini you know it's a bit difficult you know which kind of working together I don't know whether I don't know whether he's feeling me ask him just go and have a conversation you're a senior player now so I ended up sitting down with Manuel said I don't want to talk about football I said I just need I just want to know where you're at I said I want you to know about me I said I want you to know how I'm feeling I want you know what what I'd love to do in the game still and that just relaxed everything next minute we've got a date you know I feel like you know I'm going to play you in this Carabao Cup game and I want you in for Fulham but I need to I need to see where you're at and obviously I'm still training to the highest level that I possibly can believe it or not I'm starting to save the ball again believe it or not I'm starting to come when I should come not come when I shouldn't the boys are seeing a change in me and then flowed back into the team and then we won the league that year an amazing part of my career one that's probably you know everyone will look to the moment that pep guardiola came in in 2016 and everything changed no that didn't that was i was fine then that was just football that was a circumstance and we move but that was probably my best moment and biggest moment in my career and as a person amazing i mean i'm intrigued i jotted down there that as you were describing that that famous tim galway quote about potential minus interference equals performance and I'm interested in any of the other areas that the interference was obviously the relationships with whether it was with Pellegrini or or Manuel the goalkeeping coach were there any any other interferences that you decided during that period to take away to allow you to go and perform no because I wanted to try and remove anything and everything because my whole focus was about being as good as I could be and you know what I do actually remember saying I feel great as a goalkeeper probably two months before it and I said those horrible words I was talking to my pal I was like you know what if I'm in the right position I feel unbeatable and that's not me like I don't say stuff like that but I did actually feel like that at the time genuinely did and right or wrong it was a great way to feel and And like I say, I'd put myself in that position.

21:34I'd been taking steps towards like, I felt so good in the goal. And then maybe I believe my own hype. I don't know. What do you think? Because I'm sure you've thought about it a lot. Do you think you did? Yeah, but I think I was right. You know, like no one's perfect. Like they're really not. And I love that hindsight. And I don't think I would be, I don't think I would have got to the level. Well, I say I got to, I finished that. I don't think I could get to that level without believing it. but you've got to control it you've got to be able to control those feelings you've got to be able to control confidence you've got to be able to control always looking for that edge to move forward and and I didn't have that control then and and it's fine I I was happy to feel at the time I felt it within I felt it within two minutes of speaking with Jamie I felt it within the third game of the four game run I was like oof I don't I can't quite just get a handle on this I'm going to have to need to check myself.

22:31But you can't check yourself in football. It's just a million miles an hour, a million miles an hour. Next game, fighting for this title, playing for England, tournament, love it. All those things I list are not hindrance. They're amazing to be a part of, but it's pretty hard to keep up with them. I'm amazed that you say, I was okay with Pep telling me that I wasn't right for Man City because you've gone through this dip. You've done the work. You've risen again. you feels to me like just before you know the start of 2016 like you're in a great place so when you get the message from Pep Guardiola that you're not the right man for him how are you okay with that surely that was unbelievably painful it wasn't painful it was frustrating it wasn't painful it was a it was a great man who had a vision that I didn't fit into it was frustrating I didn't mind you know if it was to go to a panel and coaches were sat there and my name was brought up and he said no for me that's not which is what he said he's a good goalkeeper but for me the system doesn't work which is fine for his but then he took charge of the club that I was a part of and that I loved but what can you do?

23:41what can you do? I'd love to I'd love to have stayed and tried to prove otherwise not even prove you know he was And it would have been, look, I can try and help you to come to the level that I need you to, but I can't start you. But I'm living in that world where I want to play for England. I want to play at the highest possible level. And you can't play for England if you're being trialed at a football club. Well, I couldn't at the time. So, yeah, it was just an unfortunate circumstance. But I don't think it was a personal attack on me. It was a man who had a vision and I didn't fit into it.

24:14And what was the conversation like then? it was apparent that he was i think he signed maybe in february i think it was announced manuel wouldn't carry on um grumblings and obviously i think i don't even know if was he a free agent at the time or was he finishing his tenure at buying yeah uh you know football we played good football at manchester city but we weren't of that that brand so i'd never played that and none of us had it was a new brand for all of us and it was something that was obvious that he was going to bring in and obviously he you know I was I was deep in a contract at the club uh I was probably three and a half years maybe even four years left on a deal the club were committed to me I was committed to them but their their golden goose was was to get pep there was no and I thought great I'd love to be a part of that um and then he came in and pulled me very early we spoke as I think I went I think I came back early from to go and meet them in China because I got the vibe that it wasn't setting stone for me and I needed to have some sort of conversation.

25:20How did you get that vibe? Good question. You just do, right? I'd imagine he's going to be the new manager. I was a senior player. He's the kind of person that I'd imagine there would have been a conversation previous to coming into training, looking forward to working with you. That didn't happen. I don't know if that's how he works. I don't know. I don't work with a guy. But I came in and Xavi was still there. someone who I've got a great relationship still do now doing a great job at Manchester City he said he he didn't know how to feel he didn't know where he stood he was still waiting to meet the manager and yeah I just kind of put two and two together and then we got in front of each other and he told me that as much as he admired me as a person he didn't think I could fit into a system to which I was like look I don't agree with you but that's your opinion is that something that we can work on together or is that something where I need to find a new home to which he said look I would work I'm happy to work but I can't put everything aside that I'm trying to do I'm here to win and I respect that he was here to win he wasn't here give me a good career or look after me he needed a goalkeeper that he felt could function because he's the kind of he's the kind of coach who he needs all his people to work and then he'll make then he'll tell them what to do and where to go and how it works which I've been a part of up in you know Scotland playing for a similar sort of manager and when you're one of those pieces it's such an interesting way to play but I wasn't a trusted piece and I was in a very important position so if I'm not a trusted piece he can't put me into a system which whether whether it's a 50-50 whether it works or not he didn't know whether I could or whether I couldn't I didn't know whether I could or couldn't but he couldn't he didn't have the time hence me saying about the life that we live and national team trying to win he's in that life too so he didn't have the time for that and that and I didn't fit in so but you had that lovely example from a couple of years earlier where you where you've decided to go and build relationships and find common ground that eventually leads to you being able to develop stronger professional relationships did you try and find that common ground with him on a personal level yeah yeah 100 that's how I had the same conversations we actually went in depth it's a shame I know I know it's important it's an important thing to talk about it but it's a shame it's such a a vital part of my story because of a 21 22 year story he's he's a month yeah we move yeah and it got dealt with wasn't ideal and here we are now i suppose the reason why it's a big deal for people is that this was the beginning of the man city we see today and i i suppose i wonder how it's how it was for you after that time watching the success that came thinking man I was there and we were pretty successful yeah you were we did all right for a team that hadn't necessarily won in a while we were part of the first team to win the FA Cup you know we didn't just win one Premier League we won two we were winning whatever the whatever the league cup was called at the time so it didn't hurt too much um and that wasn't my team that did the rest so I just supported I love that club love everything about the club love the people they welcomed me as a 19 year old boy um the premier league was everything to me i was you know the club was doing their best to stay in the league at the time it was amazing some amazing people that are still there now um but what comes with great power lots and change not many people survive and you know the ones that survived they're literally some of the best players in the world to have ever played the game and i'm all right but i'm not that guy you were very good how do you reflect on your Man City time?

28:57I mean if we think about the most famous moments in a Man City shirt I guess arms aloft running around in circles like a crazy guy when you won the Premier League is a pretty big moment that's a big moment but there's so much more to it there's so many more moments that I loved a few ups and downs previous to that as well you know I was doing well under in the taxi in Sinawatra reign with Kasper, with Andreas, Isaacson, Sven Then Mark Hughes comes in. He wants another goalkeeper. Go and learn to Birmingham. Whilst I'm away at Birmingham, Mancini comes in. He's not happy with Shea, so he brings me back.

29:32Yeah, lots of sliding door moments, but loads of brilliant moments. Love playing away. For my first time in the Europa League, I remember playing in the Faroe Islands in a Europa League qualifier, winning a penalty shootout, FC Midgilan, playing with Richard Dunn. Just moments like that. and don't get me wrong, the Premier League moment's exceptional but there's just so much more to it. The day-to-day, the relationships, the move from Carrington to the new training ground, the relationships with the supporters, the away games, that FA Cup, that first win, the Manchester United semi-final. These moments just do everything for me and they really make me happy.

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32:22And the Manchester City-Spurs game. Yeah. Like, I think of that as one of the seminal moments in your career. You spoke at the beginning about this constant upward trajectory. Yep. That kind of felt like a real validation of the journey you'd been on. What are your memories of that day? so Roberto would come in and he'd asked me to come back to Manchester City having been on loan at Birmingham where I was on loan at Birmingham when I was trying to leave like Manchester City didn't want me anymore Mark Hughes didn't want me I was he had Shea given like what a goalkeeper what a guy unbelievable player in the Premier League and then the beautiful world of football changes Mancini comes in I don't think him and Shea got on and he asked me to come back pre-season to which I was like absolutely no chance like no way you didn't want me I'm done and he said please just come back and I'll give you a fair I'll give you a fair shot I want to put you against Shea so we did we did pre-season we shared it and then the two Italian managers that I've worked with both were a flip chart an hour and a half before the game there was no there was no you're playing you might not be playing is that hard mentally?

33:30it just is what it is it is what it is I'm okay with it it's whatever sometimes your name's the other side of the flip chart sometimes it's not but at least it's consistent. Flipped it, I'm playing, it's Tottenham. Obviously, I actually got on very well with Shea, still do. Loved the guy to pieces and we both understood that it was just both looking for an incredible spot and we'd do everything we could. There was certainly no backstand from me, not from him. What a stand-up, brilliant person. He'd come in and done the same to me. He'd come in and taken my place in January, February. And then I played and then everything was coming, Jermaine was up front, Crouchy was up front it was a good Tottenham team, we were poor we had a lot of new signings and they were just slicing through the middle of us and I was saving everything like a school kid on a schoolyard and up to half time I remember, I've seen a clip of Shea literally laughing, like it was almost a joke it was like, it was a way of cementing myself in the team with a good performance and there was a game where literally everything was hitting me, everything I was doing was right, we walked away with a nil-nil and it was it was an unbelievable moment for me and an unbelievable game at the perfect time brilliant i'm interested though you said that lovely line before about you like since you took me in as a 19 year old lad you've moved in from shrewsbury you've come into manchester what are the moments you think about where you felt like you truly belonged at a club where you were made welcome do you know what casper schmeichel who who had been on loan and I'd played against him the year before at Bury.

35:06I was obviously well aware of Kasper as a goalkeeper, even more aware of Peter Schmeichel, who had been at the game, Edo, to watch that game. And it was an absolute pinch-myself moment to meet, you know, the great man. And obviously, I didn't... I remember thinking, Kasper's good, like really good. And they had David James at the time, Kasper, Nicky Weaver. And then... And I thought, where do I... I didn't care where I fit. I had the conversations and it was like, look you'll come in maybe you'll train we'll get used to you maybe we'll be able to get you to another level in terms of a league one loan or and then i came in and all sorts of stories about casper being quite difficult to deal with so i was like how's this going to play out the guy he met he might have been sizing me up but he met me at the at the carrington uh opening doors welcomed me to the club i said look there's anything you need or you need any help i'm here and i thought what a moment like I did not see that coming an incredible moment and um yeah friends ever since rivals but friends and then I had Micah then I had Nadum had a lot of the young lads had Richard Dunn I had Nicky Weaver Les Chapman don't know if you know Chappie Kitman um just a really warm club Claire Marsden people that are still there now just a really really warm club who knew how to deal with someone who was you know quite new i was from a from a small town i was away from my family and immediately i felt welcome i'd like to talk at this point about england as well because i think there's a sense of belonging as a footballer and there's a more of a sense of belonging as a premier league footballer but i think where it gets really challenging is as an international like that is the elite of the elite i remember on your final game for celtic you spoke afterwards about there's still a large slice of you that is just a young kid growing up in shrewsbury when you were playing for england how did the imposter syndrome show itself there like was there any room to think about the young kid growing up that dreamed of playing for his country so i am just a young guy happy guy from shrewsbury who grew up playing football cricket tennis whatever you you name it i played it and i didn't play for any i didn't play football for any other reason i loved it loved it um and then also i'm a high level goalkeeper who stands in goal for some serious teams, has some very important people look back and think, don't worry, Joe's taking care of it.

37:27And I love that as well. And I'm proud of those two people. Very far apart, but together, I like how they work. And actually, I was saying that there's not many games, well, there's Champions League a few times to start with, but every England game, as soon as the referee blew the whistle for the game to start, I always remember just closing my eyes, smiling and then it was gone but I was that guy I remember thinking every time just thinking this is fucking mint like and then bosh gone I'm in goal I'm moving I'm I don't care about any of that couldn't care less I'm in goal and I want to work but um I think it's I think you how how how can you not enjoy doing that like what's the point and if I asked you at that time you know when you're absolutely in your pomp performing for England winning trophies playing in the Premier your league like if i asked you then when you were a lot younger what is high performance what would you have said then squeezing every single ounce out of yourself every single day being at the being at the limit pushing it to the limit never accepting um anything less than everything you've got wanting more saving every shot feeling no it's not even a feeling high performance isn't feeling highly it's a it's an attitude um that's what i would have said it would have probably been a long list and with the man who sits in front of us today talking about there's two sides to me i'm more in touch with my two sides than ever before you're no longer a professional footballer you know if i say to you now what's high performance uh i'd certainly take a breath i'd say it's assessing the level assessing your levels what are your levels what's the highest possible level you can reach doing your best to stay at that level everything you can um the way I've looked at especially football recently was put myself in the best possible position train ask the right questions get all the information whistle goes however it plays out it plays out but it won't be through lack of preparation I think one thing that sticks with me constantly is perfection is impossible it is we all know that no one's perfect but i don't think you have to accept that don't accept that you can still look for it there's no harm in looking for something that's not there and you can still push for it but give yourself a little bit of room and a little bit of breathing time um to really to really assess where you're at so at this point what what did hard work look like for you just look like work it didn't feel like any other way i'm not a man who will use that the word sacrifice lightly because I don't feel like I ever sacrificed anything I did it because I loved it I do it because I love it I do it because I want to do it I'm here today because I want to be here I'm not I'm not sacrificed anything I want to be here I want to be a part of these conversations um I want to find out you know like that first conversation with Jamie like speaking with yourself and Damien having these conversations I'll work stuff out for me and then I might not I might have more questions but going back to what you said what does hard work look like I wouldn't know what any other work looks like so it's not hard work to me but that's not me saying it's easy it's me saying it's the only way that I like to do things Can I take you back to that example you used about closing your eyes when an England game kicks off and just having a moment of gratitude and appreciation because that jars with the popular image of you being often seen as over aroused when you're playing for England you know like you've seen the footage of you I'm sure I've seen me in the tunnel tunnels yeah I've not seen me on the pitch ever I've never seen me on the pitch looking irate I've seen me in tunnels when I thought he looks a bit wild and I'm interested in in those two sides as well the guy who who looks wild in the tunnel as opposed to the guy that's taking a moment to appreciate just how far you've come but he is wild that guy he is wild and that's that's part of my skill set that's part of why I'm able to get to I wouldn't say I'm particularly overly blessed I'm talented but I'm not I'm not that good I'm I've got an amazing spring I'm not faster than many people um my left foot's okay my right foot's pretty good but I've danced with the best and felt pretty comfortable so the wild side of me the pumped up side of me I think I don't I don't regret at all it's just part of me because I knew I knew that when it was required if you were to watch me on the pitch I'm not I've never been a berater of defenders I've always been I work with my teammate I've always I've always looked to make a save I'd like to think that if I made a save or chucked one in you wouldn't be able to tell because I'm completely the same but yeah for the tunnel yeah the atmosphere got to me but to say it got to me doesn't mean that it hurt me it got to me it made me feel good it made me feel pumped it made me feel excited I knew that I was always second in the line so I'd have a captain in front of me and I always thought I've got people behind me like if they're to see this huge frame someone who's not afraid if it needs to go off right now if it's not afraid to to lean and do that for them because that's what I need to do I felt like I'm a defender so the little strikers the guys who are focused on the game the big Joe will take care of that not a problem I'll rip people out no bother and I felt like that's what I loved being and what I needed to be whether it's right or wrong like we talked about earlier in our conversation I don't know but that was what got the best out of me and like I say with the talent I got I certainly got the best out of myself but I don't think we're looking for like what is right or wrong because I don't think that answer is there it's what's right for you and I'm interested in how did you get yourself into that state of high arousal where you are the defender of the team you are the guy that everyone can rely on and do so in that controlled way that when the whistle blows i'm like i'm gonna deliver it never stopped it never stopped don't get me wrong i wasn't sitting at home you know stretching and working on strategy but just kind of how i was all the time was i'd like to think if i could stick i could stick a pair of gloves on with a 20 minute warm-up with a goalie coach that I wanted to work with and two goalies or one goalie that I trusted, I'd feel good to go.

43:58And that's probably the biggest thing that's going to whack me in two months' time, two years' time, I don't know. But that's how I've lived since I was a kid. And I don't need to live like that anymore. So that's going to be interesting to find out what that is. But that constant state, I've never been more than two weeks. I don't think I've been more than eight days on a treatment table. So I've always been out scrapping, fighting, going in goal, making saves, making blocks, arguing, having a laugh. So it was a constant state of which that, but always when I was in goal in a game, I knew that I had to be at peace with what was going on and that was how I played my football, but not through a conscious decision.

44:46It was because I knew that was what worked for me. before we finish the conversation about England we're about to enter a major tournament and you will see for the first time in a long time being outside of professional football how it feels talk about the burden of wearing the England shirt you know we spoke with Danny Cipriani on this podcast who said every time he watches England he sees tight restrictive players because he thinks that they're just thinking about the game too much because they know what comes with it how can we all help to lift the burden that comes with putting on that shirt or maybe we shouldn't I didn't feel that way personally I feel that there's a lot of noise and rightly so there's a lot of opinion and rightly so and there's a lot of theories when it doesn't go well that the shirt weighs too heavy but inside a camp that I've always been in and been a part of there's not those conversations it's a conversation of what are we going to do?

45:40how are we going to tactically play this? what's the opposition? just like when you play Lincoln City in a pre-season friendly you're looking to beat them you're looking to win i can only speak for myself but i didn't the badge or the expectation didn't weigh on me i i knew it was there and i felt it was there and felt it was right because why not why would you not reach for it because i'm part of teams where the the expectation is to win and we've won so and i've not been i've not been a part of a team that's not expected to win and win so i don't know how that feels either but i know that i know how it feels to be part of a team that's expected to win and then that team wins and I've been like I say I've been part of teams that's expected to win and doesn't but that comes with the territory of being a good team that comes with the territory of being a top top team who can go to levels so I wouldn't ask for it to be taken away because I feel like a top player and anyone that I've been around has just had too much focus on what they're doing in terms of a game of football rather than worrying whether the people watching are happy or not.

46:46And when you reflect on your England career, how would you describe it? Ask two different people, right? One, amazingly proud, made incredible memories, stuff that will never be taken away from me, made the people closest to me dearly happy, my town incredibly proud. and then ask another guy and I didn't do anything. Nothing. Nothing. Had opportunities and didn't take them. Not sad, not upset, but being frank, didn't do anything with the time that I got to wear the jersey. Because? Because we didn't win. Because? Because other teams scored more goals than us and I let goals in and we didn't score.

47:35I promise you I'm not being rude there like that. No, no, I don't feel you are, but I'm interested that you're obviously... Are you asking why we didn't win? Why I didn't think we'd crossed the line? Yeah, I'm interested as somebody that's been in that environment, why do you not feel that, given the talent that was there, that focus on going and performing, why did we not win? Me personally, all the times that we went out at tournaments, we just fell the wrong side of tight games. I can literally go into those games right now in my head and losing a penalty shootout Italy then we went at the 2014 World Cup close game with Italy we lost 2-1 close game with Uruguay we lost 2-1 at the tournament see you later pack your bags, off ski good Italy team, not great but good then we went to 2016 started our way to the group played Iceland not a good performance, banged our head against a brick wall at the tournament not through lack of trying not through lack of effort not through lack of quality um you just fall the wrong side of games and that's not an excuse that's not that's that's my that's my only reason i can give you it wasn't down to being feeling expectation it wasn't down to lack of will it was just falling the wrong side of games and when you're in tournaments that come around every two years which are world level if you get to semi-finals finals and you fall the wrong side of one game then fair enough but But facts are, I fell the wrong side in any of the games.

49:09You're gone. And I did when I was a part of that team. And that was your final England tournament, 2016? Yeah. How do you reflect on that tournament? I don't think I played well. I don't think I played well. I let a poor goal in against Wales. I think I played, doing me wrong, 95 % of my game was good, was rock solid. And I let a poor goal in against Iceland, which in a 2-1 loss and a loss against a team that we should beat is important. So I played an important part in a game that we lost. But I still feel quite comfortable with how I played, how I prepared. Like I said, what can I do now? It wasn't through lack of effort, put it that way.

49:51Because to prepare for this interview, I went and watched back a bunch of those 2016 games. Because I think in hindsight, I remember the criticism. In fact, I messaged John Ruddy, a friend of mine and fellow goalkeeper. I said I'm chatting with Joe Hart today what would you love to know he said I can't believe people used the Iceland pre-game incident to effectively end his England career what was that? remember him being super pumped up in the tunnel we lost to Iceland he'll admit it wasn't a great moment but for people suggesting that it was because he was too pumped up is utterly ridiculous that's from a fellow goalkeeper yeah you agree with that?

50:28people are free to say what they want and look that narrative's never going to be good if you lose a game I could have been stood there dormant, silent he wasn't up for the game I could have chewed my chewing gum slowly not up for the game chewed it too fast admittedly I probably was I was pumped I was ready but I was just I was ready to win a tournament like that's what I was ready to do that's what he's saying and I think what's really interesting is I remember the criticism that swirled around 2016 so going back and watching these games I expected to see like howlers and rickets and problems and I was like hold on there's like a couple of moments that even you would say I could have done a bit better there but even they weren't it just got me thinking about how you learn to deal with what feels often like really unfair scrutiny You talked about the how an England player feels or would feel and I'm in and around the best in terms of players in terms of coaches i've made friends through the years with serious football people and their opinion is important to me my family's opinion is important to me i'm not saying it's not important that someone says he was too pumped up for the game but i get that it's a flippant comment i get that it's a comment of someone who knows nothing about me knows nothing about how i work day to day knows nothing about the the previous however many hundred appearances i'd made with with medals around my neck i was in exactly the same mode exactly the same mode exactly the same person but i just didn't perform so what who how can you please everyone when if you do you'd make errors at such a high scale like a it was a high high profile game especially the iceland and i made a i made a mistake so cool the people need to say what they need to say they need to feel better about england going out the tournament and i can't get away from it I was one of the factors we went out that tournament but like that doesn't that doesn't crush me that doesn't destroy me that's I know for a fact I could do that in my last game I could have done that in my last ever game I've walked out oh Joe what a great career how great are you you know what a feeling at Celtic I could have chucked one in in an old firm derby exactly the same exactly the same as what I did there and potentially that would have that would have change the narrative on my career for now to certain people but to me it wouldn't I'm going out I'm doing my best I'm putting it all on the line I'm getting picked by people who are in really important roles they're not just your random guy off the street they're being employed to pick the best players for England the best goalkeeper in England the best player for Celtic the best player for Manchester City so if these guys believe in me my defenders believe in me my people at home who see how I work daily are comfy with me then we've all got to be okay that every now and again it happens So when you think about, I mean you're describing really powerfully there Joe the idea of being a member of a tribe and your tribe is your family and the professionals that value what you bring to them Can you think back to a piece of feedback or a bit of coaching that you ever received from somebody within those tribes that really made you sit up and pay attention?

53:44probably the resounding one was with Jamie even though he's definitely part of my tribe and it was when I was waffling on about I can't do this, I can't do that this doesn't feel right he just said do you know how to go and go? and I said yes and then he smiled that was it that's all you needed well yeah there probably should be something more sensational in there but I only knew how to reach my level as best I possibly could and that was probably staying in my own lane in terms of trying to get the best out of myself was the best way that I could integrate with a group and work with a team and often what I'd ask people when I see if they're having a little second guess about themselves or need a little bit of reassurance.

54:34Can I ask you about the fact that when you're a goalkeeper you can do something that someone in midfield can do and no one even notices because it happens in midfield if you do it, if the ball slips under your foot, it's a goal. If the ball slips under a striker's foot four or five times a game, it can happen and no one sees it. How do you, A, become comfortable with the fact that the stakes are so much higher for a goalkeeper, but also what are the tips that you'd suggest for our audience for moments when something bad does come your way? Like how you recover from that going forwards and recover quickly?

55:07So the way I look at it is I signed up to be a goalkeeper. I signed on the dotted line as a person, as a player. So those stakes being higher, they're just my stakes. There's no point in me worrying whether a midfielder gets away with a mistake. There's no point in me worrying if a striker misses a chance or if I make a mistake and it goes in the goal. Often if you don't make a mistake, it's still perceived as your fault. But I signed up to be a goalkeeper, so I don't see it as high stakes. I see it as just my stakes. the life that I live and the life that I'm part of. And as much as I want all the good sides to what makes me feel good as a goalkeeper, you can't have it all.

55:51But it's hard for me to advise for anyone else other than my mindset and a goalkeeper mindset. And if I ever get asked from a young goalkeeper or a mother or father of their child's a goalkeeper, what's one bit of advice you can give? like technically I can't really give any I can just say only go in goal because you want to go in goal because it's the only way you can be a goalkeeper um and I love being a goalkeeper I love those stakes they're my stakes and they're the ones that I live and live and die by but you can only do it if you want to do it I don't think you could do it if you're looking and saying what you said there if a midfielder makes a mistake or if a striker makes a mistake that's irrelevant to my life it's what I do and how I can be a goalkeeper

56:40So that's part one of our chat with Joe Hart but it is far from over because in part two we talk about this There's no personal vendetta about stopping me from playing the game I didn't fit anywhere that I wanted to play Jose wanted to speak to me about potentially working at Tottenham I know if I speak to him, I'm done. I'm signing. Let's talk about Celtic. It's a special place that will forever be in my heart and a team that I support. And it was everything that I love about football. Really, really nice day. And then we had a cup final against our greatest rivals. And we win in the 90th minute.

57:18What can you say? So the tough years as Joe went on loan, fell out of favour and struggled to find a club before the most incredible ending. so check back for the next episode of High Performance to hear an emotional Joe Hart talk us through the latter stages of his career listen thank you so much for joining us please stay humble stay curious stay empathetic and we'll see you next time

58:22Thank you. than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu. Dr. India Woods here. As a veterinarian, I demand a lot of my scrubs on the job. That's why I show up in FIGS. FIGS are made for the sometimes crazy situations I find myself in. It doesn't matter if I have to squat, sit, bend, or even chase after one of my patients. FIGS moves with me and keeps me comfortable in the highest pressure situations. FIGS gives me one less thing to worry about. Get 15 % off your first order by visiting wearfigs.com and use code FIGSRX at checkout. That's wearfigs.com code FIGSRX.