Joe Hart: The Truth About England, Guardiola and Losing His Place at Man City

0:02So I am just a young guy, happy guy from Shrewsbury who grew up playing football. I didn't play football for any other reason than I loved it. Loved it. And then also, I'm a high-level goalkeeper who stands in goal for some serious teams, has some very important people look back and think, don't worry, Joe's taking care of it. And I love that as well. When you reflect on your England career? All the times that we went out at tournaments, we just fell the wrong side of tight games. At the tournament, see you later. Pack your bags. Offshki. So, the World Cup has started. And with it, of course, comes all kinds of questions that we always ask about England, about pressure, about tournament football, about how can we get over the line this time?

0:42Maybe this is the year. Well, obviously, here's hoping. And I think those questions are something that few people know better than today's guest, Joe Hart. He was England's number one for over a decade, won two Premier Leagues at Manchester City, played in World Cups and Euros. And then when Pep Guardiola arrived at Manchester City, almost overnight, Joe had to realise that his face didn't fit. But he didn't crumble. Instead, he rebuilt. And in this conversation, he talks about the mental block that nearly ended his City career. How a sports psychologist changed the way he understood relationships.

1:18What it was really like inside England's tournament camps and the extraordinary final chapter at Celtic that brought everything full circle. So this is a man who carries two versions of himself everywhere he goes. The warrior in the tunnel and the kid from Shrewsbury, who still can't quite believe any of it actually happened. But we jumped straight in at the moment. A very angry Joe once walked outside at the Etihad, across to where I was broadcasting live on the television. And I'll always remember seeing this face out of the corner of my eye and thinking, what is going on here? Honestly, it was kind of terrifying, but it also showed, I think, an amazing bit of leadership.

2:05Let's start with that story as we welcome Joe Hart.

2:12How are you doing? I'm good, thank you. It's nice to see you again. You too. Now, can I just interject here because I want to make sure that last time you two saw each other, you was having a crack at him. I was. It wasn't actually. No, we've worked together since. Have we? Yeah, no. We worked together on BT or whatever it's called now. Oh, yeah. I remember you came and did a game. Yeah, you're right. Go on, Joe. Tell us the story. I want to wear your version of this. I can't believe you've gone here straight away at the beginning. You want to hear how I was feeling at the time? Right, okay. So I am mid-20s, pumped up on life, pumped up on football, pumped up on adrenaline.

2:48Jake's coming to the sport. He's working for New Channel, BT, trying to do things a little bit different I think it's fair to say and I was watching you present and I felt like you were close to kind of making a joke of everything of a lot of people that I had a lot of love and a lot of respect for and I felt protected from we had a player called Martin D. Michalys who came and did a great job he was Manuel Pellegrini signing and he wasn't playing out of his skin let's say a few things were happening his way played in the FA Cup Wigan I was on the bench it was the FA Cup I think we lost I think we might have lost the game at the Etihad and Martin had given a penalty away there was a lot going on around his name at the time and I think the chairman of Wigan you interviewed him after it was Rosler so I if you remember Uwe Rosler was the manager right and he played at Man City and named his son Colin because he loved Colin Bell that was it remember this and I and you're totally right I was making a joke about the fact that he'd named his son Colin Bell and I said to him maybe you'll name your next son Martin after Martin Di Michele's won you the game?

3:53So I'm in the gym because I wasn't playing I always like to work out after because I prepare for the game like I should on the bench wasn't playing a lot of energy and I was watching it and I heard you say that and I was Richard Wright was the third choice goal at the time and he saw me I was like I'm not having that I said don't like it when people talk about someone and they can't defend themselves because Martin would never do English TV and he was like Joe just let it go I said how can I sit in here get annoyed at Jake and he's 30 yards away I said I'm going to go and say something he was like please don't go and say something I said no I feel like I've got to say something otherwise it won't sit well with me so I walked out waited for you I think we're still live on air at this point yeah and Mike this is the first I've become aware of this because I'm with Steve McManaman yeah and we're standing there we're doing our presenting and Maka goes fucking hell what the fuck's up with him and I looked I turned round and I went oh bloody hell and you Joe was like 20 yards away I think you were with one of the press officers or something he was like 20 yards away and I am not joking the stare was intense and he was locked on and I said to Steve I said Steve I think I think you've pissed him off honestly because we couldn't tell he was just looking at us but he was like there was no blinking the eyes were like this and then we stayed on air and I don't know if my memory is the same as yours but we came off there and immediately the press officer comes over to me and she goes hi Joe would like a word with you go on Joe you take it on from there yeah so I asked for a word obviously looking back now it shouldn't have riled me up that much maybe I had something going on with me I don't know but I just felt like I needed to let you know I just said Jake you've got a very important role in our world I think you just come over from F1 right that's right yeah you've got a very important job in our world and I felt recently that you were almost making a joke of some some things that people are really working hard to do and putting themselves on the line I said Martin for example I said I don't even think Martin understands or would even know what you've just said but I need to stand up for him and I don't think that's acceptable that you're making a joke of him having a bad game and I just I didn't even know what I was saying but I just said I wanted you to be aware that we're not cool with that I didn't know why I thought I was talking for the whole football world.

6:15But yeah, to be fair, you took it on. You obviously didn't want to offend me. You weren't on TV to offend anyone. But I just wanted to let you know that maybe not everyone's got a voice. You're right. And I thought it was a brilliant bit of leadership, actually. I mean, at the time, I was just shitting myself. Because do you remember when they took us down and they took us to the manager's office in the tunnel, didn't they? Yeah, they did, yeah. And I sort of have this memory in my head of we're not a dissimilar height, but I have this memory of Joe being like four feet taller than me, leaning over the top, like wild eyes like bulging muscles and you said exactly that and what I thought was interesting for me anyway because I was new to football is you said the people in there are trying their best and they are human beings that make mistakes and it doesn't help them or anyone else at home to make a joke or make light of that and I think I tried to sort of defend myself and say look we're trying to make entertainment as well as football do you remember?

7:06and we shook hands and left it at that but we actually wrote about this you know in our in our first book I told the story of this in our first book. Right, okay. Just because I thought it was a really interesting insight into you as a leader. And I just wonder when you first kind of, when you first took on that mantle of thinking, no, I'm going to stand up for my teammates, my football club, the sport I love. I don't know. I've always kind of felt that way. I've always felt, I suppose, starting to reflect now that I'm not a goalkeeper. I do look at things from a goalkeeper point of view. That's how I see life.

7:42I'm very protective. I want to help. I want to be the last line of defense, if you like. And that sounds cliche, but that's literally how I live my life. And especially with teammates and started to come into environments where not everybody has a say. I've been a foreigner. I've played in a foreign league where stuff could be going on around me and I could be completely oblivious. Like someone could be absolutely slaughtered me, sat next to me and I wouldn't know. And Martin was my example. I feel bad bringing his name because he did exceptional and we won the league with Martin Di Michele and he's had a fantastic career.

8:11he just happened to be the guy that I didn't feel like he would he would have a voice and I felt awful and always have that I was saying these things about you and I was 20 I was 20 meters away I was a few walls away but I said why would I sit in here saying that when I could go and have a conversation with you and I'd like to think I'd calm down enough to try and get the point I wasn't like you can do whatever you want you can be whoever you want to be but I just felt it was important that I said it because three weeks later if I was sat there watching and another TV presenter was doing it and I thought I had a chance to say something.

8:45But isn't that how life should be anyway isn't it how relationships should work like it was actually a brilliant moment for me because it was the beginning of my life in football and Formula One probably is more entertainment and it was a great sort of reminder for me that this is different you know. Yeah well I don't know I don't know whether I was wrong or whether I was right and or whether whether it is It is an entertainment business, but that was how I felt. And I just felt wrong to say something, especially about you, when I could pull you and say it to your face. And I really did mean it from the best possible way, even if I was pumped up and probably looked a bit stupid at the time.

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11:23I'm interested in like there's hard and easy decisions and the easy decision is maybe don't say anything or if I bump into Jake I'll I'll pull him up and you've very deliberately chosen the hard decision of I'm going to go and have this conversation have you always done that or was that something that developed throughout your career I don't know I honestly don't know I'm not really got too much in-depth recollection of however always behaved in those situations maybe in school let things slide I don't know but since I've played football and since I've realized that having kind of communication with people like things can be solved really quickly and I definitely want to give that an opportunity so like I say if Jake chose to just say shut up I'll do my job however I want to I'd have been fine with that I can't tell him what to do but I wanted to just give it the best opportunity because I thought it was the best thing for everyone I thought it was the best thing for you even though again I can't tell you what to do I think it was, absolutely and I thought it was the best thing for me because it stopped me from being angry when I saw a TV presenter or a pundit saying things that I didn't agree with So take us into the mind and the world of Joe Hart at that time because this is 2014 that was an FA Cup quarterfinal wasn't it?

12:42At that point you're the England guy you're the City guy you've won the FA Cup you've won the Premier League what was life like for you at that point? It was a lot of fun it was intense it was crash bang wallop all sorts of things happening but it was an amazing time to be alive an amazing time to be a young guy who loved playing football I was getting every opportunity under the sun and I felt like if I really was at it and at my best, then the opportunities were endless. And was it easy? Like, were you in flow at that time? Were the decisions on the pitch coming easy for you? See, that was probably a moment.

13:23In 2013, I'd say up until the age of 26, 27, I'd just progressed. I'm talking from 11, 12, 13, 14 with the first team, 18s, training with the first team, reserves, turn 15 first team city loan play England 21s and I was literally just taking steps up this ladder just through hard work believing in what I was doing and not really thinking too much and then 2014 start of that season I was useless I had this kind of block where I started the season and I didn't feel right I felt that I was second guessing myself having never done that professionally ever always even even in a mistake just kind of like whatever I'll just I'll just carry on playing flow was there and interesting you said flow because that's a big thing for me I was jittery start the season actually got taken out of the team by Manuel Pellegrini early on in his career a new goalkeeper coach had come in we were kind of clashing a little bit and I got taken out of the team which was the first time in my life my career I'd ever been removed from a team and it was 100 million percent the right thing to do and obviously I stormed into the office and I you know why have you done this in my head I'm going thank god you've done this this is the right time to do this excellent from you because it's not easy like you said you just gave the list of of who I was and what I was and what I was to Manchester City and he said Joe you just need time out you're not right I said I don't know you well enough but I know enough to know that you're not playing to your potential right now and you're hurting the team, which is the perfect thing to say to me because if someone says that, then not a problem.

15:11I said, look, I don't agree with you. I do agree with you. But what will it take to sort this out? He said, look, I'm not banning you from the team. I'm not taking you out. I'm not, you know, you're not banished. I just feel like you need a moment. So I said, right, okay, I'm going to go, I'm going to work on myself and I want to stay in regular dialogue with you. and then brilliant for my agent at the time i obviously called him told him what was happening i said i'm you know because in the build-up to that happening i'd been poor for probably three or four games like poor it all culminated in a mistake against chelsea we lost 2-1 uh nastasic ball through ball i came but didn't come then he saw me come but didn't see me stop so he's gone to head it back to me then i came again it went over my head torres knocked it in lost 2-1 and you still remember it like it was yesterday 100 i remember the drake song when i put my headphones on and i pressed play and it was don't think about it too much and i started laughing to myself because i was like you're a mess but it was funny it was like i could i could see the funny side of what was going on and i was like i'm a real problem at the moment i'm a real problem for this team i need to come out and i need to i need to work out what's going on um anyway so spoke to spoke to my agent he suggested if you ever thought about you know talking to someone because he knew that I was all professional roots, goalkeeper roots.

16:31I was trying. I was exhausting. Like, I'm always going to try as hard as I can. I said, you know what, I'd love that. I'd absolutely love that. So we reached out. Quite ironic how it works with Brendan Rodgers here, and he won't mind me saying. Brendan was the manager of Liverpool at the time, and my agent's link was to Dr. Steve Peters, to which he reached out. And Brendan, he was working exclusively with Liverpool at the time. so Brendan said look I can't let Joe have him but I'd never like to leave a player in need I've got another suggestion I've got Jamie Edwards who's a mental coach I was like yeah cool I appreciate that obviously I wasn't in dialogue but that's what got told to me went and sat down with Jamie and well you probably know more about this Damien he asked me about myself told him it was one of those meetings where we don't know how it's going to go and obviously three hours later I'm waffling away like listening to myself kind of answer the majority of all the questions that i've got worked out that it's not necessarily the ability it's just the clarity of what you need in the game clarity of what you need off the field and then we started this kind of beautiful adventure of of learning more about myself and learning more about kind of control and the best way of getting the best possible version of me which doesn't mean the perfect me it just means the best possible version and we went on that um he came in with a new style a new style that he was really keen on and he'd never played.

17:53It's a wide leg stance that you'll see Edison and Stefan Ortega, you see them take it up. Without being boring and going into it too much, it didn't suit me. I was more neutral and I felt really comfortable in how I was playing. He asked me to just try it. I told him that I was quite comfortable in my neutral. He said, yeah, that's cool because he's a very funny character when I got to know him. He was like, right, that's cool, but just try it. I was like, this isn't going to end well because you've seen how I am at that time in my life. I'm like, well, I think this is what's best for me. Anyway, so we're button clashing.

18:25And then three months into the season, Jamie went, who's your new goalie coach? Told him Xavi. He went, tell me about Xavi. And I went, I said, what do you mean? He said, well, tell me about his family. I said, I don't know anything about his family. He went, right, well, what chance have you got? No, what chance have you got working with a guy that you're not interested in personally? I said, I bet he knows about your family. I was like, well, yeah, I've talked about mine. He said, why don't you just open a conversation? Why don't you just open the door with him? So I said, you know what, I'd love to do that.

18:58And I walked, obviously charged in. We'd been passively aggressive working together. We'd been working together fine. Like no one would have known. But I know when I get on with someone how I behave and he probably is the same. Asked him for a coffee. Next thing I know, I find out about his family, find out about how he works. He's asking me how I'm working. shoulders are dropping I'm saying look I know I'm out of the team at the moment I'd love to get back in and what your style is I'd love it if we could just kind of bring a little hybrid version I can do that for you not a problem next minute we're working together in and then some of his ideas are great some of them I still use to this day some of them I don't but that's life again some of them he liked from me same with Manuel uh how how how's your relationship with Manuel Pellegrini you know it's a bit difficult you know which kind of working together I don't know whether I don't know whether he's feeling me ask him just go in and have a conversation you're a senior player now so I ended up sitting down with my mouth said I don't want to talk about football I said I just need I just want to know where you're at I said I want you to know about me I said I want you to know how I'm feeling I want you know what what I'd love to do in the game still and that just relaxed everything next minute we've got a date you know I feel like you're I'm going to play you in this Carabao Cup game and I want you in for Fulham, but I need to see where you're at.

20:18And obviously I'm still training to the highest level that I possibly can. Believe it or not, I'm starting to save the ball again. Believe it or not, I'm starting to come when I should come, not come when I shouldn't. The boys are seeing a change in me and then flowed back into the team and then we won the league that year. An amazing part of my career, one that's probably, you know, everyone will look to the moment that Pep Guardiola came in in 2016 and everything changed. No, I was fine then. that was just football that was a circumstance and we moved but that was probably my best moment and biggest moment in my career and as a person amazing i mean i'm intrigued i jotted down there that as you were describing that that famous tim galway quote about potential minus interference equals performance and i'm interested in any of the other areas that the interference was obviously the relationships with the whether it was with pellegrini or or manuel um the goalkeeping coach.

21:12Were there any other interferences that you decided during that period to take away to allow you to go and perform? No, because I wanted to try and remove anything and everything because my whole focus was about being as good as I could be. And you know what? I do actually remember saying I feel great as a goalkeeper probably two months before it. I said those horrible words. I I was talking to my pal. I was like, you know what? If I'm in the right position, I feel unbeatable. And that's not me. Like, I don't say stuff like that. But I did actually feel like that at the time. Genuinely did. And right or wrong, it was a great way to feel.

21:52And like I say, I'd put myself in that position. I'd been taking steps towards, like, I felt so good in the goal. And then maybe I believe my own hype. I don't know. What do you think? Because I'm sure you've thought about it a lot. Do you think you did? Yeah, but I think I was right. You know, like, no one's perfect. Like, they're really not. and I love that hindsight and I don't think I would be, I don't think I would have got to the level, well, I say I got to, I finished that, I don't think I could get to that level without believing it but you've got to control it, you've got to be able to control those feelings, you've got to be able to control confidence, you've got to be able to control always looking for that edge to move forward and I didn't have that control then and it's fine, I was happy to feel at the time, I felt it within two minutes of speaking with Jamie, I felt it within the third game of the four-game run.

22:44I was like, oof, I can't quite just get a handle on this. I'm going to have to need to check myself. But you can't check yourself in football. It's just a million miles an hour, a million miles an hour. Next game, fighting for this title, playing for England, tournament, love it. All those things I list are not hindrance. They're amazing to be a part of, but it's pretty hard to keep up with them. I'm amazed that you say, I was okay with Pep. telling me that I wasn't right for Man City. Because you've gone through this dip, you've done the work, you've risen again. You feel to me like just before the start of 2016, like you're in a great place.

23:21So when you get the message from Pep Guardiola that you're not the right man for him, how are you okay with that? Surely that was unbelievably painful. It wasn't painful. It was frustrating. It wasn't painful. It was a great man who had a vision that I didn't fit into. It was frustrating. I didn't mind you know if if it was to go to a panel and coaches were sat there and my name was brought up and he said no for me that's not which is what he said he's a good goalkeeper but for me the system doesn't work which is fine for his but then he took charge of the club that I was a part of and that I loved but what can you do what can you do I'd love to have I'd love to have stayed and tried to prove otherwise not even prove you know he was it would have been look I can I can try and help you to come to the level that I need you to but I can't start you but I'm living in that world where I want to play for England I want to play at the highest possible level I want to I want and you can't play for England if you're being trialed at a football club well I couldn't at the time so um yeah it was just it was just an unfortunate circumstance but I didn't it wasn't I don't think it wasn't a personal attack on me it was a man who had a vision and I didn't fit into it and what was the conversation like then oh it was apparent that he was i think he signed maybe in february i think it was announced manuel wouldn't carry on grumblings and obviously i think i don't even know if was he a free agent at the time or was he finishing his 10 year of buying yeah uh you know football we played good football at manchester city but we weren't of that that brand so i'd never played that and none of us had it was a new brand for all of us and it was something that was obvious that he was going to bring in and obviously he you know I was I was deep in a contract at the club uh I was probably three and a half years maybe even four years left on a deal the club were committed to me I was committed to them but their their golden goose was was to get pepped there was no and I thought great I'd love to be a part of that um and then he came in and pulled me very early we spoke as you know I think I came back early from to go and meet them in China because I was I got the vibe that it wasn't um it wasn't set in stone for me and I needed to have some sort of conversation good question uh you just do right I'd imagine he's going to be the new manager I was a senior player he's the kind of person that I'd imagine there would have been a conversation previous to coming into training looking forward to working with you that didn't happen I don't know if that's how he works I don't know I don't work with the guy but um came in and javi still there someone who i've got a great relationship still do now uh he said he he didn't know how to feel he didn't know where he stood he was still waiting to meet the manager and yeah i just kind of put two and two together and then we got in front of each other and he told me that as much he admired me as a person he didn't think i could fit into a system to which i was like look i don't agree with you but that's your opinion is that something that we can work on together or is that something where I need to find a new home to which he said look I would work I'm happy to work but I can't put everything aside that I'm trying to do I'm here to win and I respect that he was here to win he wasn't here give me a good career or look after me he needed a goalkeeper that he felt could function because he's the kind of he's the kind of coach who he needs all his people to work and then he'll make then he'll tell them what to do and where to go and how it works which I've been a part of up in you know Scotland playing for a similar sort of manager and when you're one of those pieces it's such an interesting way to play but I wasn't a trusted piece and I was in a very important position so if I'm not a trusted piece he can't put me into a system which whether whether it's a 50-50 whether it works or not he didn't know whether I could or whether I couldn't I didn't know whether I could or couldn't but he couldn't he didn't have the time hence me saying about the life that we live and national team trying to win he's in that life too so he didn't have the time for that and that and I didn't fit in so but you had that lovely example from a couple of years earlier where you've decided to go and build relationships and find common ground that eventually leads to you being able to develop stronger professional relationships did you try and find that common ground with him on a personal level?

27:36yeah yeah 100 % that's how I had the same conversations we actually went in depth it's a shame I know it's important it's an important thing to talk about but it's a shame it's such a vital part of my story because of a 21, 22-year story, he's a month. We move. And it got dealt with. It wasn't ideal. And here we are now. I suppose the reason why it's a big deal for people is that this was the beginning of the Man City we see today. And I suppose I wonder how it was for you after that time, watching the success that came, thinking, man, I was there. We were pretty successful. Yeah, you were. We did alright for a team that hadn't necessarily won in a while.

28:18We were part of the first team to win the FA Cup. We didn't just win one Premier League, we won two. We were winning whatever the League Cup was called at the time. So it didn't hurt too much. And that wasn't my team that did the rest, so I just supported. I love that club. Love everything about the club. Love the people. They welcomed me as a 19-year-old boy. The Premier League was everything to me. hours you know the club was doing their best to stay in the league at the time it was amazing some amazing people that are still there now um but what comes with great power lots and change not many people survive and you know the ones that survived they're literally some of the best players in the world to have ever played the game and i'm all right but i'm not that guy you were very good i'd like to talk at this point about england as well because i think there's a sense of belonging as a footballer then there's a more of a sense of belonging as a premier league footballer but i think where it gets really challenging is as an international like that is the elite of the elite i remember on your final game for celtic you spoke afterwards about there's still a large slice of you that is just a young kid growing up in shrewsbury when you were playing for england how did the imposter syndrome show itself there like was there any room to think about the young kid growing up that dreamed of playing for his country so i am just a young guy happy guy from Shrewsbury who grew up playing football, cricket, tennis, whatever you name it, I played it.

29:44And I didn't play football for any other reason than I loved it. Loved it. And then also, I'm a high-level goalkeeper who stands in goal for some serious teams, has some very important people look back and think, don't worry, Joe's taking care of it. And I love that as well. And I'm proud of those two people. Very far apart, but together, I like how they work. And actually, I was saying that there's not many games. Well, there's Champions League a few times to start with, but every England game, as soon as the referee blew the whistle for the game to start, I always remember just closing my eyes, smiling, and then it was gone.

30:25But I was that guy. I remember every time just thinking, this is fucking mint. And then, bosh, gone. I'm in goal, I'm moving. I don't care about any of that. I couldn't care less. I'm in goal and I want to work. but how can you not enjoy doing that? What's the point? And if I asked you at that time when you were absolutely in your pomp performing for England, winning trophies, playing in the Premier League if I asked you then when you were a lot younger what is high performance? What would you have said then? Squeezing every single ounce out of yourself every single day being at the limit pushing it to the limit never accepting anything less than everything you've got wanting more saving every shot feeling no it's not even a feeling high performance isn't a feeling it's an attitude that's what I would have said it would have probably been a long list and with the man who sits in front of us today talking about there's two sides to me I'm more in touch with my two sides than ever before you're no longer a professional footballer if I say to you now what's high performance?

31:29I'd certainly take a breath I'd say it's assessing the level assessing your levels What are your levels? What's the highest possible level you can reach? Doing your best to stay at that level. Everything you can. The way I've looked at, especially football recently, was put myself in the best possible position. Train, ask the right questions, get all the information, whistle goes. However it plays out, it plays out. But it won't be through lack of preparation. I think one thing that sticks with me constantly is perfection is impossible. It is. We all know that. No one's perfect. But I don't think you have to accept that.

32:08Don't accept that. You can still look for it. There's no harm in looking for something that's not there. And you can still push for it. But give yourself a little bit of room and a little bit of breathing time to really assess where you're at. So at this point, what did hard work look like for you? Just look like work. It didn't feel like any other way. I'm not a man who will use the word sacrifice lightly. I don't feel like I ever sacrificed anything. I did it because I loved it. I do it because I love it. I do it because I want to do it. I'm here today because I want to be here. I'm not sacrificed anything.

32:44I want to be here. I want to be a part of these conversations. I want to find out, you know, like that first conversation with Jamie, like speaking with yourself and Damien, having these conversations, I'll work stuff out for me. And then I might not. I might have more questions. But going back to what you said, what does hard work look like? I wouldn't know what any other work looks like. So it's not hard work to me, but that's not me saying it's easy. It's me saying it's the only way that I like to do things. Can I take you back to that example you used about closing your eyes when an England game kicks off and just having a moment of gratitude and appreciation?

33:21Because that jars with the popular image of you being often seen as over-aroused when you're playing for England. You know, like you've seen the footage of you, I'm sure. I've seen me in the tunnel. tunnels. Yeah, I've not seen me on the pitch ever. I've never seen me on the pitch looking irate. I've seen me in tunnels when I thought, oof, he looks a bit wild. And I'm interested in those two sides as well. The guy who looks wild in the tunnel as opposed to the guy that's taking a moment to appreciate just how far you've come. But he is wild, that guy. He is wild and that's part of my skill set.

33:57That's part of why I'm able to get to, I wouldn't say I'm particularly overly blessed i'm talented but i'm not i'm not that good i haven't got an amazing spring i'm not faster than many people um my left foot's okay my right foot's pretty good but i've danced with the best and felt pretty comfortable so the wild side of me the pumped up side of me i think i don't i don't regret at all yeah um it's just part of me because I knew that when it was required, if you were to watch me on the pitch, I've never been a berater of defenders. I've always been a work with my teammate. I've always looked to make a save.

34:41I'd like to think that if I made a save or chucked one in, you wouldn't be able to tell because I'm completely the same. But yeah, before the tunnel, yeah, the atmosphere got to me. But to say it got to me doesn't mean that it hurt me. It got to me it made me feel good it made me feel pumped it made me feel excited I knew that I was always second in the line so I'd have a captain in front of me and I always thought I've got people behind me like if they're to see this huge frame someone who's not afraid if it needs to go off right now if it's not afraid to to lean and do that for them because that's what I need to do I felt like I'm a defender so the little strikers the the guys who are focused on the game the big Joe will take care of that not a problem i'll rip people out no no bother and i felt like that's what i loved being and what i needed to be whether it's right or wrong like we talked about earlier in our conversation i don't know but that was what got the best out of me and like i say with the talent i got i certainly got the best out of myself but i don't think we're looking for like what is right or wrong because i don't think the answer is there it's what's right for you and i'm interested in how did you get yourself into that state of high arousal where you are the defender of the team you are the guy that everyone can rely on and do so in that controlled way that when the whistle blows i'm like i'm gonna deliver it never stopped it never stopped don't get me wrong i wasn't sitting at home you know stretching and working on strategy but just kind of how i was all the time was i'd like to think if i could stick i could stick a pair of gloves on with a 20 minute warm-up with a with a goalie coach that i wanted to work with and two goalies or one goalie that I trusted I'd feel good to go but like that's how I've lived since I was a since I was a kid and I don't need to live like that anymore so that's going to be that's going to be interesting to find out what that is but um that constant state I've never been I've never been more than two weeks I don't think I've been more than eight days on a on a treatment table so I've always been out scrapping fighting going in goal making saves making blocks arguing having a laugh um so it was it was a constant state of which that but always when i was in goal in a game i knew that i had to be at peace with what was going on and that was how i played my football but not through a conscious decision it was because i knew that was what worked for me talk about the burden of wearing the england shirt you know we spoke with danny cipriani on this podcast who said every time he watches england he sees tight restrictive players because he thinks that they're just thinking about the game too much because they know what comes with it how can we all help to lift the burden that comes with putting on that shirt or maybe we shouldn't i didn't feel that way personally right i feel that there was there's a lot of noise and rightly so there's a lot of opinion and rightly so and there's a lot of theories when it doesn't go well that the shirt weighs too heavy but inside a camp that i've always been in and been a part of there's not those conversations it's a conversation of what are we going to do how are we going to tactically play this what's the opposition just like when you play lincoln city in a pre-season friendly you're looking to beat them you're looking to win i can only speak for myself but i didn't the badge or the expectation didn't weigh on me i i knew it was there and i felt it was there and felt it was right because why not why would you not reach for it because i'm part of teams where the the expectation is to win and we've won and i've not been i've not been a part of a team that's not expected to win and win so i don't know how that feels either but i know that i know how it feels to be part of a team that's expected to win and then that team's wins and i've been like i say i've been part of teams that's expected to win and doesn't but that comes with the territory of being a good team that comes with the territory of being a top top team who can go to levels so i wouldn't ask for it to be taken away because i feel like a top player and anyone that I've been around has just had too much focus on what they're doing in terms of a game of football rather than worrying whether the people watching are happy or not.

38:45And when you reflect on your England career, how would you describe it? Ask two different people, right? One, amazingly proud, made incredible memories, stuff that will never be taken away from me, made the people closest to me dearly happy, my town. incredibly proud, and then ask another guy and I didn't do anything. Nothing. Nothing. Had opportunities and didn't take them. Not sad, not upset, but being frank, didn't do anything with the time that I got to wear the jersey. Because? Because we didn't win. Because? Because other teams scored more goals than us and I let goals in and we didn't score.

39:30I promise you I'm not being rude there. No, no, I don't feel you are, but I'm interested that you're obviously... Are you asking why we didn't win? Why I didn't think we'd cross the line? Yeah, I'm interested as somebody that's been in that environment, why do you not feel that, given the talent that was there, that focus on going and performing, why did we not win? Me personally, all the times that we went out at tournaments, we just fell the wrong side of tight games. I can literally go into those games right now in my head and losing a penalty shootout to Italy. Then we went at the 2014 World Cup.

40:07Close game with Italy. We lost 2-1. Close game with Uruguay. We lost 2-1. At the tournament. See you later. Pack your bags. Oshki. You know, a good Italy team. Good Europe. Not great, but good. Then we went to 2016. Stuttered our way to the group. Played Iceland. Not a good performance. Banged our head against a brick wall at the tournament. not through lack of trying not through lack of effort not through lack of quality you just fall the wrong side of games and that's not an excuse that's not that's that's my that's my only reason i can give you it wasn't down to being feeling expectation it wasn't down to lack of will it was just falling the wrong side of games and when you're in tournaments that come around every two years which are world level if you get to semi-finals finals and you fall the wrong side of one game then fair enough but facts are fell the wrong side in any of the games you're gone and I did when I was a part of that team and that was your final England tournament 2016 yeah how do you reflect on that tournament I don't think I played well don't think I played well I let a poor goal in against Wales I think I played doing it wrong 90 % 95 % of my game was good was rock solid and I let a poor goal in against Iceland which in a 2-1 loss and a loss against a team that we should beat is important.

41:30So I played an important part in a game that we lost. But I still feel quite comfortable with how I played, how I prepared. Like I said, what can I do now? It wasn't through lack of effort, put it that way. Because to prepare for this interview, I went and watched back a bunch of those 2016 games because I think in hindsight, I remember the criticism. In fact, I messaged John Ruddy, a friend of mine and fellow goalkeeper. I said I'm chatting with Joe Hart today what would you love to know he said I can't believe people used the Iceland pre-game incident to effectively end his England career what was that?

42:07remember him being super pumped up in the tunnel we lost to Iceland he'll admit it wasn't a great moment but for people suggesting that it was because he was too pumped up is utterly ridiculous that's from a fellow goalkeeper yeah you agree with that? people are free to say what they want and look that narrative's never going to be good if you lose a game I could have been stood there dormant, silent he wasn't up for the game I could have chewed my chewing gum slowly not up for the game, chewed it too fast admittedly I probably was I was pumped, I was ready but I was just I was ready to win a tournament, that's what I was ready to do That's what he's saying and I think what's really interesting is I remember the criticism that swirled around 2016 so going back and watching these games I expected to see like howlers and rickets and problems and I was like hold on there's like a couple of moments that even you would say I could have done a bit better but even they weren't it just got me thinking about how you learn to deal with what feels often like really unfair scrutiny you talked about the how an England player feels or would feel and I'm in and around the best in terms of players in terms of coaches i've made friends through the years with serious football people and their opinion is important to me my family's opinions are important to me i'm not saying it's not important that someone says he was too pumped up for the game but i get that it's a flippant comment i get that it's a comment of someone who knows nothing about me knows nothing about how i work day to day knows nothing about the previous however many hundred appearances I'd made with medals around my neck, I was in exactly the same mode.

43:53Exactly the same mode. Exactly the same person. But I just didn't perform. So how can you please everyone when, if you do, you'd make errors at such a high scale. It was a high profile game. Especially Iceland. And I made a mistake. So, cool. The people need to say what they need to say. They need to feel better about England going out of the tournament. And I can't get away from it. I was one of the factors we went out of that tournament. But that doesn't crush me. That doesn't destroy me. I know for a fact I could do that in my last game. I could have done that in my last ever game. I've walked out, oh Joe, what a great career.

44:33How great are you? What a feeling at Celtic. I could have chucked one in an old firm derby. Exactly the same. Exactly the same as what I did there. And potentially that would have changed the narrative on my career. For now. To certain people. but to me it wouldn't I'm going out I'm doing my best I'm putting it all on the line I'm getting picked by people who are in really important roles they're not just your random guy off the street they're being employed to pick the best players for England the best goalkeeper in England the best player for Celtic the best player for Manchester City so if these guys believe in me my defenders believe in me my people at home who see how I work daily are comfy with me then we've all got to be okay that every now and again it happens so when you think about i mean you're describing really powerfully there joe the idea of being a member of a tribe and your tribe is your family and the professionals that value what you bring to them can you think back to a piece of feedback or a bit of coaching that you ever received from somebody within those tribes that really made you sit up and pay attention probably the resounding one was with jamie even though he's definitely part of my tribe and it was when i was waffling on about i can't do this i can't do that this doesn't feel right he just said do you know how to go and go and i said yes and then he smiled that was it so he needed well yeah i'm probably gonna look there probably should be something more sensational in there but i only i only knew how to reach my level as best i possibly could and that was probably staying in my own lane in terms of trying to get the best out of myself was the best way that I could integrate with a group and work with a team and often what I'd ask people when I see if they're having a little second guess about themselves or need a little bit of reassurance.

46:25Can I ask you about the fact that when you're a goalkeeper you can do something that someone in midfield can do and no one even notices because it happens in midfield if you do it. If the ball slips under your foot, it's a goal. if the ball slips under a striker's foot four or five times a game it can happen and no one sees it how do you A become comfortable with the fact that the stakes are so much higher for a goalkeeper but also what are the tips that you'd suggest for our audience for moments when something bad does come your way like how you recover from that going forwards and recover quickly so the way I look at it is I signed up to be a goalkeeper I signed on the dotted line as a person, as a player so those stakes being higher they're just my stakes there's no point in me worrying whether a midfielder gets away with a mistake there's no point in me worrying if a striker misses a chance or if I make a mistake and it goes in the goal or often if you don't make a mistake it's still perceived as your fault but I signed up to be a goalkeeper so I don't see it as high stakes I see it as just my stakes the life that I live the life that I'm part of and as much as I don't want I want all the good sides to what makes me feel good as a goalkeeper like you can't have it all it's it's hard for me to advise for anyone else other than a than my mindset and a goalkeeper mindset and if I ever get asked from a young goalkeeper or or a mother or father of their child's a goalkeeper what's one bit of advice you can give like technically I can't really give any I can just say only go and goal because you want to go in goal because it's the only way you can be a goalkeeper um and i love being a goalkeeper i love those stakes they're my stakes and they're the ones that i live and i live and die by but you can only do it if you want to do it i don't think you could do it if you're looking and saying what you said there if a midfielder makes a mistake or if a striker makes a mistake it doesn't that's that's irrelevant to my life it's what i do and how and how i can be a goalkeeper what stayed your career did you become a leader the guy that you wanted people to rely on?

48:31I honestly don't know and to class yourself class myself as it is tough but I've just kind of always wanted to be I've always not wanted to lead but I just wanted to have I've wanted to be have a relationship with my team with my teammates whatever that may be and then feel together and often my attitude and how I am has elevated me to a point where people would stick me out. But it kind of resonates with me that I stand too. I stand behind the captain. I stand with my team behind me. That's always been my feeling, always how I wanted to feel. So whether I have been or haven't been, that's just me.

49:14That's how I behave. But I love having people in front of me. I've always loved helping the captains. I've never been a captain. I've always loved helping the captain. If I can help the manager, if I can soften the blow for things, I've always wanted to do that. And that phrase that you used about you love the idea of all being together, how would you create an environment where people would feel that they were all together? Getting to know everyone. I think football's one of the most amazing sports where, especially high level, you're getting people from all over the world. And it's very hard for them to just come in and have people to have a personality because you've got different cultures, you've got different ways of living, you've got people in different stages of their life and having a conversation with someone just giving them a little bit of time giving them a little bit of freedom to be just kind of assert who they are um and then i wouldn't even try and create an environment you just i would want to i just want people to feel comfortable and the more comfortable people feel the better the environment is so i'd say that would be one of my tools that i'd use but it's not a tool I use I just really like doing it and I loved seeing people become more comfortable and even the more difficult boys if you've really really dug they weren't being difficult because they wanted to cause trouble it was because they were just a bit uncomfortable what was going on with them or how they were feeling and don't get me wrong it's not down to four hour chats and but it's just letting people know like you can you can you can chill like this is a safe place you can be yourself whoever that is whoever that version of you is it's cool we're going to make it work for this team and beauty of football as it's been with me if it doesn't work for you there's a transfer window coming up so don't cause yourself drama or cause this team drama for any amount of time because it's a lot of effort it ultimately doesn't get you anywhere and there's a big wide world out there there's millions of teams that you can go and play for so just just dig in it's so nice to sit and have a really sort of honest and open vulnerable conversation like this and you know when Damien asked you what makes a good culture and you talk about well safety really the ability to be you that's really what we're trying to achieve with this show is this comfortable for you to talk like this now do you enjoy it I love it I absolutely love it because I don't feel I don't feel vulnerable here I feel like you're asking the right questions you're asking them for the right reasons um I'd imagine a lot of people get a lot of comfort from the guests that you get to to feel comfortable but when you're trying to work out who you are like we all are in life and i don't know who i am yet like i'm not i haven't cracked it at all and i don't claim to have cracked it but you learn things through the way and i've always felt best when i've just spoken honestly yeah um but answer to your question a great environment yeah really great environment and you're doing a great job and it's it's a pleasure to sit here and i think the reason why it matters is it's so easy for us to sit here and talk about all the things we have all the highs the great moments the titles the trophies representing your country shoulders out all of that and that's great for people to be entertained by but i think the true depth here is actually some of the challenges that that we all go through and we have this image that a footballer is bulletproof and particularly for someone like you that seemed so confident from the outside this is like the real joe hart we get to see now so can we talk about a period where it was tough and actually what it was like on the inside rather than the perception from the outside, this period of going to Torino, which I think by all accounts was fun and I can see the smile on your face straight away, but then West Ham and then Burnley and then Spurs.

52:52What would you like to share with us about that period in your career? Torino was a strange part of my life before the manager had come in. It was mid-August by the time it was pretty certain that I needed to go elsewhere. So I was looking elsewhere. I was, like I say, I had three years left on an unbelievable contract. A contract that I'm forever grateful, but I felt I earned. Anyway, it was a tough contract for someone to take on. And you know how the goalkeeping market works. People have got their number ones. Certainly got their number ones who are getting those sorts of contracts or would demand those sorts of transfer fees.

53:36so I was a little bit like where am I going to go here anything that I kind of thought was going to happen got snuffed out we got late I think it was maybe 27, 28 of August maybe something must have happened then late in that summer where you just thought I need to get out of here no no I was constantly like that but it wasn't desperation it was like that's what I need to do constant communication with the club I was still the manager was playing Willy Caballero because the club weren't able to bring going to bring anyone in even though I knew that it was either Testegen or Bravo that we're trying to bring in, but they needed me gone.

54:11To which I was like, I'll go because I need to go because I need to play. Sam Allardyce's first England camp, I went and sat down with Sam. He said, look, if you can play football, you're in my team. I'm comfortable with how you play. I think you're going to be important. And then I don't know how. I don't know how the maths or the calculations came about but I was told that I could go to Torino. I was like right, okay didn't ask any more questions spoke to Patrick Vieira who'd played for Juventus obviously the same city it's a beautiful city we didn't get into it or why and then I spoke to the late Sinisa Mihailovic who and Alexander Kolorov knew and he said come play come and play for me you can come and play for me i want you to come play for me so i said all right i'll come play for you i didn't really get into the depths of how it worked because i don't think it should work but it did i asked my wife what what she thought and she said you know let's go why not because i told her that look if i don't go it could be a problem for me playing for my country and i'm not going to get in at manchester city so we took it and we went and it was a beautiful club, amazing club to play for, amazing city, very up and down, kind of good some games, not good some games, I'd say.

55:40Personally, I played okay. I wasn't elite level that I would put myself at, but it can't be great all the time. And it was in a different environment and I said, you know what, I'm just going to enjoy it for what it is. trying to get beautiful support and try and make the most out of it and then look to move permanently the next summer. So I've still got two years left on my deal or three, I don't know. Anyway, the reason I talk about the length of my contract is because the club, even though they didn't want me, they couldn't just give an England goalkeeper away for free. I'm still a business.

56:18There's still a price tag on my head. And then I was starting to become slightly less desirable at this point because of my narrative with one of the greatest coaches in the world wasn't feeling me. And were you ever tempted to engage in anything that might have been perceived as gimmickry? You know, like looking for something new or different or, you know, some people would reach out for superstitions or in Tony Cascarino's famous book he spoke about he started to dye his hair darker because he didn't want to give the impression that any grey hairs would mean he's getting old and therefore that narrative starts to establish him he's an old man now were you tempted to do anything like that?

56:56Do you know what I loved watching recently was the quarterback documentary on Netflix and I loved watching how all of them but particularly Mahone's all the stuff that he did off the field and if I were to start again now I'd probably look at something like that but this was only two years ago and I was pretty set and physically I was at my maximum with the load that I was doing but there was an energizer bunny that when I was when I was his age you had more but I felt I still got respect that at the time when I was when I was that age that I was still doing everything I possibly could so it's not like I was leaving something away it's just now I learned I learned more so I don't regret that I didn't do it then but it just made me smile but no in answer to your question I always feel and felt like I was pushing myself to the limit and getting everything out of myself and like i say sometimes it was it had great results and sometimes it had pretty average ones but were you tempted to do anything even to try and shift the narrative so that like maybe do more media appearances you know like maybe do something to curry favor with no i didn't i didn't i like i said i respect that world and i respect that people people have opinions and and will send sensationalize good and bad but like it was completely out of my control and what I knew was in my control like I say it brought me into a place where I feel comfortable my feet were on the ground gloves were on my hands and I felt like I could I could push myself to the limit what's the biggest thing you learned to stay in the moment stay really really present try my best to get the most out of it not look for shortcuts um and enjoy the moment enjoy the the tough times enjoy the good times and don't let them necessarily dictate who and what you are but as a father and a husband would would would your wife or your children have noticed any difference in you during this tough time perceived tough time it was a not perfect for me football wise i don't know i'd imagine so i'd imagine there'd be there'd be tells like there's no point in saying that i was skipping around happy but it's just a focus like I say it was a focus and it was an energy to be at my best but the reason I ask Joe is because I'm interested for anyone listening to this that might want to offer a helping hand to people in their lives that need it at that time and I'm interested in did they do anything that you felt had love this love this how are you coping first time the first period we talked about how are you coping with you know not being in the team I'm alright how are you your dad your mum how are they what do they ask you how are you how are you and what do you tell them yeah I'm alright I'm alright alright I'm gonna flip it how would you behave if you felt like one of them was struggling what would you want to do for them I'd want to help them right okay so why would you not let them take part of your burden and immediately yeah you're right because me thinking I'm protecting everyone it's fine it's fine relax I'll get through it It's fine.

1:00:08But I would never let that happen to someone who I cared about ever. I'd want to take them, let them know that everything's all right, let them know that, look, it's just a moment in time. And that was a huge moment for me. And it really helped me with relationships, all my relationships, because when you think I thought I was protecting, I wasn't. I was probably just, I was leaving people in the cold and people that cared about me and wanted to help and wanted to love and I wasn't letting them. so that was actually a really good moment and something that I use a lot now when I speak to people when I see young players or middle of their career players who are just kind of got that I'll be alright, I'm getting through it it's a really empowering thing to have help and have a good team around you Would you take us to the moment where you decided to say Oh right there, as soon as he said that as soon as I realised just like when he said so what's Xavi's family like and I couldn't answer him the guy that I'd worked with for three months I'd asked him one question about himself so did you go home and tell your wife yeah and my dad and my mum and everyone and my boys and my gang what did you say to them exactly what happened laughed about it After West Ham came Burnley and then Tottenham.

1:01:28What was the hardest period for you in this part of your career? Burnley, I came in. Obviously, I spoke with Sean, a man who's on a real level. He told me he thought he could bring me an opportunity and I could help him and he could help me. I agreed with him. Came in, obviously, amongst Tom and Nick, two awesome goalkeepers, two guys that I love to pieces as well. but you know circumstances injuries football I thought I was played I thought I did okay as in fact I played well I thought I played well I was happy with my levels but I came out the team because the team weren't winning which is difficult but man's got to make a decision he told me that he'd made he changed every player in the team he hadn't changed me so he was going to do that he had Tom Heaton fit and ready to play tough but he's got to do what he's got to do the world again does not revolve around me tom came in did excellent fully fully asserted himself as a back in after um you know a tough couple of months for him who was living his own story in his own life and i'm sure would have a great conversation with you about his time there but it wasn't mine i came out finished the rest of the season on the bench for tom and then this was the window where I thought, you know, open dialogue with the club.

1:02:45If you need to go somewhere, Joe, go and do it. You know, you've got our backing. Thank you. No animosity. And I looked and there was nowhere for me to go. Literally nowhere. I think I'm one of three at this point. There probably was some conversations of somewhere to go, but nowhere I thought, nowhere that I wanted to play. And how did that feel? I don't know. It didn't feel anything. it was yeah it wasn't disheartening it was just everyone around me at that time was I'd asked to deal in facts so I was getting facts that's what I asked for but your ego isn't going hold on I'm Joe Hart I'm available on a free why are people not bashing the door down here well because the the footballing world makes the the right decisions so if if I'm not fitting I'm not fitting it's not it's you know no one's there's no personal vendetta about stopping me from playing the game no one was i'd imagine not many people were going nah no chance they were just going you know what it doesn't work for us we prefer go down this route doesn't work for us we'd go down this route because i know for a fact that you couldn't it's not like people were going we've heard he's a bad person he's a bad egg it was none of that it was just i didn't fit anywhere that i thought that i wanted to play and what can you do?

1:04:05I still had a year at Burnley. I said, all right, I'll stay and I'll play. And Tom went, Nick was back fit, an incredible goalkeeper, incredible goalkeeper for Burnley. And I just had to, the window closed. So then I had to accept my position and do my best to do my best for Burnley. The team that employed me, a great group of guys, a great group of players who were doing something that just didn't involve me at the time, but I was still part of the squad. So stay fit, stay strong, stay active. January comes around, what's available? Again, not surprised, nothing's available. Nothing that I wanted to do.

1:04:45And then COVID came. So COVID came and obviously that threw everything into the air, made everything difficult for everyone. I think my contract expired during whatever transfer window was concocted during that time, to which I felt, right, okay, I'm free to just take a breath here. I'm out of contract. I need to be open to all conversations to which I obviously want to play. I love playing football. Then I was able to have a conversation with one club about potentially coming in as not as a one, but to work. And then Jose wanted to speak to me about potentially working at Tottenham to which I knew football.

1:05:29well, you know, Hugo's there, but he wanted to have a conversation with me. To which I said, I can't speak to him until everything else is off the table because I know him. I know if I speak to him, I'm done. I'm signing. Like, he's an amazing person. You know, so... And it wasn't a conversation, like, he's a grown-up, I'm a grown-up. It wasn't a conversation where he'd come and say, you know... I knew he wasn't going to say, look, if you do well, you'll be number one. I knew what the conversation would be. it would be a support to a top class goalkeeper who you never know might not play for injury or loss of form but very highly unlikely Hugo is an elite operator but anyways it got to the point where I was like let's speak spoke to him I told him where I'm at I told him I understood what would be asked of me and I'd love to come and help if I can help Tottenham and help him I said look I'm not telling you I don't expect to come in as one I want to come and help the team in the squad and as long as you respect that then you'll you know you'll have a top class person and goalkeeper to which he said come on down so I went down so Tottenham would probably be seen as a as a difficult time it wasn't because I said when I agreed to go to Tottenham I said to my people around me I said I need to accept the worst case scenario if I'm going to if I'm going to sign up to this because I need to accept that I might not play a minute and it might be a very frustrating year for me so i'm going to i'm going to accept that in front of all of you so that i and you will never hear me moan about not playing a game obviously in the conversations it would be you know hugo's an older goalkeeper there'd be moments where we're going to need you in the in the cups and the europa league that was what was the conversation but that's not promised that's not there's no contract that i signed that says that comes with it um so it wasn't a difficult year for me it wasn't I played the games that I played when I did I played well I did my best to help in and around it was great to be around that environment Son Kane you know back with Eric Hoiberg Jose Mourinho it was it was it's a proper environment it's a COVID year there's no fans it's strange for all of us really strange but that wasn't that wasn't anything other than I'd signed up for and to try and get the best out of it.

1:07:49And I did feel good there. I felt like I helped. I felt like an important part of the squad. But whatever, it's perceived how it is. But I'm sure I'd like to think if you spoke to anyone who was part of that squad, then they'd say the same thing. Joe did his best to help the team, like I have done when I played or not played. What if the real question isn't where you're going, but the adventures you experience along the way? It's time to set your sights higher. On peaks still to be climbed, rivers still to be crossed, and greater dreams to pursue. It's time to embrace the impossible with Defender.

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1:10:42I love that bit that you just threw in there Joe about you got your people around you and you outlined this is what I'm signing up for here I'm not expecting to play No, I'm not expecting to play but I'm saying look, I want to play 50 games for Tottenham of course when I signed on the dotting line that's what I wanted but I said you won't hear me complaining if... And that's the bit that really intrigues me. Why was that so important to publicly state that to your group that you weren't going to complain? So no one thought that I was being deluded and no one thought that... In the back of their head, their advice would be to me if I went, you know what, I've got this great opportunity at Tottenham.

1:11:23And if I start pre-season well and get in the team, I know my... We go way back. and I know 90 % of them would go miles off it. What are you doing? Like you're deluded. You've lost the plot. And rightly so. I would have been deluded to say that. We all felt it as a team. We all felt that I do get an opportunity and however the cards fall, I get an opportunity. But I think there's a huge difference between that being a possibility and that being the reason that we're going. So I wanted to get it out. like this is not me being defeatist these are me saying for us to move forward and us to all be comfortable with what's going on i want you to all know that i do realize what i'm walking into here i love that though because it reminds me of like when we spoke to steve hansen who was the head coach of the new zealand who'd be union team he he he reveled in dealing with uncomfortable truths that idea of like, you know, let's lean into these things rather than deny them and pretend it won't happen.

1:12:29Let's lean into them and discuss the uncomfortable truth. And that seems to be a hallmark of high performers like Steve and like yourself. How important have you found being prepared to confront uncomfortable truths in your career? Do you know what I've loved in all moments? Good, bad or indifferent, I've loved clarity. and that was me being clear and that's when I've felt the best and I don't mean performance wise not a performance wise I mean at best in how I behave and how I want to act when I've got clarity like I say very easily could that be seen as someone who's waving the white flag but I think if you're open and clear like everyone like I say my people that matter they know me and they understand that I'm going there to do business but I'm also not deluded and I'm also realised that I'm going to have to be part of a greater good of which I was trying to be.

1:13:31And how did it end at Tottenham? Not well. Didn't need to end how it ended if honest. The new manager came in. I think the club realised that they needed to make changes. He had different ideas of which I wasn't one of them. Right. a bit of a random conversation about where I stood what did he say? he said that he didn't feel comfortable no because I'd asked him do we need to have a conversation because I knew they were bringing another goalkeeper in obviously Hugo was number one club captain so it's like doing the maths and it didn't quite work so I said do we need to have a conversation yeah we'll have a conversation after training this was a couple of weeks in Hugo first he said that he wouldn't feel comfortable playing me he didn't feel like I was a level to which could work in one of his teams which is fine like I did yeah if that's how he felt then fair enough but he was wrong one and two if you need me to go just tell me like I'm a grown up you can have a you can have a good conversation but he might have felt that I might be wrong I might be completely wrong I didn't feel it needed to go that way however like I say the world doesn't revolve around me and then I had a year left on my contract um and top them being the business that they are yeah obviously then needed to move me on and i was quite cool with okay that's enough now yeah that's enough had you not got a bit more personal than that though nuno did i read is that no what you read it would have been what he said but i can't remember what it was but what i said and what you read would have been what was said So it was something like, you wouldn't play a minute for me.

1:15:13Yeah. Or you haven't got, you've not got the strength. Yeah, that was it. There's a moment in your life where, in your career, maybe he was giving me advice in his opinion as apparently he played in goal. Maybe he felt that at some point and he felt like he saw that in me. I didn't agree, but whatever. That's what he felt he needed to do and that's what the club needs to do. But yeah, like I say, club, Tottenham then need to, they're a good business. They're not going to have me sat there and two other goalkeepers because Pierre Gallini was already in the door. But I kind of went home. I was like, you know what?

1:15:45I've had enough. That's cool. I think I'm okay with this being my final page. I feel like I've got a lot to give, but there's no real space for me in the footballing world anymore. I've had a good ride, so no problem. We'll chill. And then the club, I think, obviously put the feelers out. and I'd spoken to whispers of speaking to Celtic previously of which immediately got me interested. And then they said, would you have a conversation with Ange Postacoglu? I said, of course I will. I'm always open to conversations, completely open. Why not? I didn't know Ange. I didn't know his pedigree. I knew that he'd just become Celtic manager and spoke to him.

1:16:35And it was a very, very, very honest conversation, especially from my point of view. I said, look, please don't let me come across as defeatist, but I'm in a spot here where I don't know if I want to be a part of the professional world of football anymore. I said, I'm not sad, I'm not down, I just don't feel I fit. And for me to fit, I said, I need to be given a chance, I need to be understood and I want the opportunity to play I said just please listen to me I'm not telling you to do that I'm saying that's what I need to get the best out of me Anjan, incredible incredible man manager said you know what I've done my research on you so I'm not going to try and fill you out as a person he said I've spoke to enough people about you for me to not have to even make a decision he said football wise I can't promise you anything but I can promise you an opportunity.

1:17:31So if you do come up here and you do want it, I feel like it could work. You know, I also said that family-wise, I said football's not number one in our house anymore. So if I do come, I'm coming on my own. I said, but you don't have to trust me. You don't know me, but just trust me that I'm all in. I'm completely all in, but I will be working between the two on days off and things like that. so I don't want that to upset you and if that's going to upset you and upset the balance in the dressing room then I'm putting all my cards on the table and he said look look I can't tell you how it's all going to work but that's not a big no-no for me I feel like we can start a relationship and we can go from there which I said that's enough that's enough for me that's enough the fact that you're even willing to listen to my so-called demands they're not demands but like what would really make me tick and potentially get the best out of me I'd do anything for you like let's do this so bam bam bam Tottenham obviously I think it was muted that there was some sort of price or some sort of transfer fee not that I'm aware of it was contract done can I get myself up the road to which I did Mate that feels like a really brave thing I think even when you've gone I think I'm done with football that's one thing to then get an opportunity at a club as big as Celtic and still say to the manager look i don't feel like fit in football anymore like that that takes some bravery and maybe a bit fit i was just being honest i did not think i could do it i knew i could do it didn't you worry though that like this could remove an amazing opportunity if i say this no because i i wanted to be honest with someone i just wanted to tell them the truth and i didn't feel i didn't know celtic at the time but i i knew enough about them that you don't mess with you don't mess with that club in terms of you don't play games if that conversation was with someone else maybe slightly local to him do i say those things maybe not maybe not because i'm like you know what because it's work at the end of the day it's like can't get away from it this is a job i'm gonna you're a professional footballer you don't have to love it i'm just lucky that i do and most of the places i've gone i've been madly in love with it but if i was going to go up there i needed to be in love with it i needed to be given the opportunity to fall in love with it and there so I didn't I didn't feel vulnerable now and when people talk about Ange I mean one of the features that often comes out is his man management his ability to build relationships and you've you've spoken about that being something important to you once you've delivered these uncomfortable truths to him and he's decided to accept that football's not number one in your house and the different geographical arrangements what did he do that sort of lit that spark again that made you think I'm going to relocate to Glasgow, I'm going to go all in?

1:20:21Nothing, just let me be. I didn't need anything else. I don't need anything else to be lit. There's a spark in me, always. He just let it burn if you like. He got something out of you though that Tottenham didn't, Burnley didn't, West Ham didn't. Something happened. I don't know. I don't know. Because at Burnley, I don't feel that I played badly. I still felt like I was playing well it just obviously didn't we didn't do well as a team Tottenham I signed up for something where kind of even if you do play well there's a there's a well-established top goalkeeper that they've already got on their books who unless anything ridiculous happens so like I say I was still excuse me at a level that I felt was my level what I think is very interesting thing about this right is that we all have a perception of what we think you have to be to be a good footballer right and we have a perception of what you don't need to be to be a good footballer and actually if we look at your career right when you were absolutely 100 % all in in the tunnel for England right people were using that as criticism right but then fast forward 10 12 whatever years to when you're at Celtic and you're basically going to look this football's no longer number one and look at the performance you're putting in.

1:21:41So maybe we need to totally rethink. It was still number one in my being, in my doing. You had a freedom, I think, of like, it wasn't everything anymore, was it? It wasn't what it was when you were 18.

1:21:56But I've always, it wasn't everything then. I wasn't thinking, how can I get to the top? It was just absolutely play and enjoy it. So I don't know if I've not communicated it right, but when I said it wasn't number one in my house, it was that there were far more important people in terms of stability and a living situation. But it was still, once I was in Glasgow, once I was on the training field, I wasn't thinking about anything else. But you had freedom, maybe. Like you were more mature, you had other things in your life and that was probably good for you. No? I think I was the same, been the same lunatic, yeah.

1:22:30I don't know, I might be wrong. Yeah. Like, what you're saying makes sense, but I just want to be really clear that I was still as passionate, as involved. It's just living-wise, that was it. So what was the situation like at home where you've gone home from Tottenham and said, I think the chapter's closed now or maybe football's done. And then, however long after, you'd ended up saying, I'm going to relocate up to Glasgow. What was their reaction? It was just a constant communication. Like I say, from when I learned that all that time ago to, because I could have easily just said, just bear with it.

1:23:05we'll see what happens but instead I was like I went home and I said you know what I'm not sensationalizing this that I don't know whether I don't know because when you need a new club you need to fight for it you need to search for it you need to be on the phone to your agent you need to be working out who's like doing the chess moves that's what I've loved not doing the chess moves if he goes here and he goes there's an opportunity I said I'm not I'm not in that zone anymore you're not going to hear me trying to work out a situation if this is what it needs to be then this is what it is obviously to which you know she said and everyone around me you know you've got a lot more to give i said yeah i know that but there's no point in me putting my energy into something that's not there and you know like i say that everyone's been on the on the ride and understood that that's true they couldn't really argue it's true yeah i was only telling the truth so it wasn't a case of not having the energy or not being good enough there just wasn't necessarily a place and then i come home and i got told that to have a conversation so i just passed that on and the conversation went I walked in and passed out how are you feeling I quite like the sound of it okay keep me updated if I do go I've told them that you're going to stay right let's talk about Celtic tell us about Celtic Football Club what do you want to know whatever you want to tell us I don't know it's a special place that will forever be in my heart and a team that I support and I'm incredibly proud to play for and a great experience.

1:24:36Something that I'm very, like I say, I'm very proud to have done. So from the outside, we think we know what it must feel like to play for Celtic, like a big club, amazing atmosphere, passionate fans. Glasgow is this goldfish bowl of pressure, expectation, passion. What is it actually like to play for Celtic? It's all those things, but at the same time, it's very personal in such magnitude. There's a real personal feel to it, especially being up there, getting to know people, making friends, everyone associated with the club, very much wanting to find out how you are, how you feel, how they feel you're performing, what they feel can be better.

1:25:17Always something on the horizon, always some sort of madness bubbling away, brewing, always some sort of adventure around the corner. just a really high octane place to play football and a really really enthralling thing that I absolutely loved and it was everything that I love about football. And can you tell us how it felt to suddenly be central to a team again after a few years in the wilderness perhaps to be perceived to be playing brilliantly to be picking up trophies like to be almost back to how it how it started it felt right it felt right you know we talk about if i look at my career i know we've probably gone into more depth about less than 10 of it because that's what's interesting i get what i get that bit's interesting i really do because a lot more thoughts and a lot more um emotional decisions were made but like the majority of my career has been been a number one has been playing well has been leading has been lifting trophies uh so it felt right and you said after your final game i've never felt professionally this special my entire life could you explain that um so i got to do something really unique i think because football's a fast business fast business and I got I decided I was going to finish I wanted to own the fact that I was going to finish I told people early I told a truly special football club that I wanted to finish with them because I loved them I didn't want anything else I didn't want anything else from football whether it had anything to offer me I don't know didn't even put myself in didn't have to do those chess moves if he moves here didn't even want to go into that and spoke from the heart about something that was, and it might not have gone well.

1:27:15We could have easily, you know, we were probably second in the league when I said it and we had a cup final where we were going to have to play our greatest rivals. I could have walked away potless in my last season. But I just wanted people to know that even though I was finishing, I wanted to finish strong and then did finish strong, got into a beautiful flow. The team really clicked. Brendan really got us playing how he wanted to play. we got who we were and we started to really perform and the buzz of the club no matter how many trophies they win when you're playing well it's an absolute buzz the drums were going the fans were singing the flares were going off and it was just an incredible feeling and then there was they asked me to do a they asked me to do a a night with Joe Hart to which I immediately said because I said when I wanted to retire that I didn't want to talk about it.

1:28:11I wanted to do what I need to do, say what I need to say, do the press that day and then we'll deal with everything else after the season because the team comes first winning the league comes first and they asked me would you do a night with Joe Hart with about a month to go. I said no and then I said you know what, scrap that you were willing to do that for me. They were like we'd love to do that for you. I said that's amazing that's absolutely beautiful and i don't feel comfortable doing it but i'm going to do it because for you to even come here and ask me to do that is is special uh just let me know what i need to do so we did a night we did a night with with joe hart feels weird talking about my name but that's what it was and what was it fans invited to come and do a q a yeah it was a it was a q a on stage we brought a few people up dave watson came up um micah did a bit for me brendan and Callum were on, Brendan and Callum on stage, a 90 minute show, they put it out to the real, because I made some great friends up there, Billy, Tom and Ewan, shout out, who made my life great up there, we did a lot of golf together, spent a lot of time together, and they were, one of them's a, you know, whatever class fan, where he gets the tables and stuff like that, and he said they hardly put it out to anyone, and it was a 700 people sellout, and they got that within an hour, which was special.

1:29:37I didn't really get the magnitude. I didn't invite enough people from down south, but last minute I ended up getting a few people up because I didn't know what was going on. I just sat on stage and just went through it and just really enjoyed talking about my experience and being honest and loving the fact that I'd done it. So that was special. Then we managed to win the league. you know we had we had a really great derby win at home no we went away drew 3-0 in a mental game then that put I think we were still points behind but it meant that a win at home a couple of weeks later would mean that we'd be in the driving seat and we won that game it was an unbelievable game tight game and then semi-final missed a penalty saved a penalty like the story was just getting a bit silly I actually said in the in the warm-up at the semi-final.

1:30:31Goalie coach Stevie Woods, who I'm really close with, was exceptional for me. I pulled him about 25 minutes into the warm-up because I'd been emotional with him previously when I was going to finish. I said, I feel really uncomfortable. I said, everything feels right. I said, I can't. I'm catching everything. Everything I'm doing is right. I said, I feel really, really uncomfortable. Because? Because it didn't feel like it should go that way. Life doesn't work like that, does it? you know I said just keep me grounded he was like you are but I will I was welling up in the morning I said keep me grounded because I don't like I'm feeling a bit I'm enjoying it but I'm aware we were 1-0 down after three minutes so that was a nice little whack in the chops but whatever anyway then we managed to win over win the league the atmosphere was unbelievable and then we had a home game to celebrate winning the league to which it was almost, it was like the kind of Joe Hart day which made me uncomfortable.

1:31:33My teammates were unbelievable with me, like so good with me. And... In what way? It was getting a bit, a bit much about me. And they were, and obviously I'm always going to stand there and say thank you when people are being nice to me, you know. and they just sat back and let me be me

1:32:04and then we had a special last day the season a lot of fuss made not comfortable talking about it in a positive way really really nice day and then we had a cup final against our greatest rivals and we win in the 90th minute 50-50 split Hamden what yeah what can you say but it is emotional now even thinking about that period yeah I'm a happy emotional person right so I'll cry when I'm happy and when I've got good things to say and that was that was me for a long for a good couple of months and that moment where you came out with that TIFO I mean watching it on the telly it was emotional at home.

1:32:55I was watching with my little boy and he was mesmerized by it. I can't imagine your emotions at that point. Well, I didn't expect anything. I really didn't. I'd already got more than I ever could have asked for in terms of treatment and kind words and how my family were treated. And then I came out for the second half and I loved that corner, the Green Brigade. I loved the energy that comes from that corner. They were every away game and that bounce and that energy and the songs. Like, that's me. That's me. I'd happily be in there. And I will be in there at one point in my life. The kind of like, the throb, the songs, the passion for the club.

1:33:34And then I came out second half and I always, I had my ball boy that I get on really well with. He gives me the ball, tests my gloves. It's the second half. But we've won the league, but I'm still, still a big game. I've still got, you know, it's my last ever time at Celtic Park. And then I caught out of the corner of my eye. It must have already been up, but I didn't even, and I was trying to compute what was going on. I really struggled to compute what was going on. I thought, is that me? That's me. These people, then they had a song that they sang and then I had to flip out. I thought, I'm trying to be professional here but I've got to appreciate this as the guy we talked about previously.

1:34:15And I did and I just took it all in and then I just had to kind of clip myself in the jaw a couple of times like, right, I've got work to do, I've got a job to do. And then I kind of took myself back into it. But then we had trophy lift and families on the pitch and that club celebrates properly. Like, what, in the last 13 years, won 12 leagues and still every single trophy is celebrated. Like, it's everything. I love that about the place. So that was a special day, a day that will live with me forever, ever and ever and ever. and everyone involved. And I love the emotion it brings up. I love the gratitude you obviously have for it.

1:34:59And this kind of feeling that I think sometimes we assume people in a position you're in, they feel entitled. They're like, of course this is happening to me. You still have that wonderful, almost childlike disbelief that you ended up in that position on that pitch as that guy. Mad. Scared me a little bit. And I'm not a guy who's scared either. Like I'm not. I always think, you know what, why not? Let's go. what scared you it just scared me it just made me feel like this is a lot a lot of very good things happening you know not that good things haven't happened to me but i know i've i've been there i've seen how it flows um that was it that's what scared me it didn't it didn't petrify me it just made me feel like i say when i spoke to woodsy in that warm-up i said i feel uncomfortable I didn't not like feeling that way because I felt amazing like I felt amazing I was scared but also feeling great at the same time you know so well that takes you back to that that summer when you said that you felt unstoppable you know and then what follows from it is almost it's a survival instinct to protect yourself from what you think inevitably follows yeah yeah 100 % and I'll forget forever be on guard for that but I'm also interested that you're the ultimate team man everything you've spoken about here is standing behind the captain being the guy that everyone relies on and yet you look up and it's an evening with Joe Hart it's Joe Hart day that's not about being a team player now that's about you and the focus on you and I'm interested that it feels almost it's uncomfortable how did you reconcile that?

1:36:39I give myself a slap to get over yourself some amazing people are doing some amazing things for you show some damn gratitude and did that incredible finish put into perspective some of the more challenging years you had before that no because it was that was mom that was the moment i was in i didn't do those moments for that there's no sense of proving people wrong prove who wrong anyone that didn't believe in you in those hard times no the the right people that i needed that mean everything to me, believed in me as a person and will continue to. So I'm not out here. Do you know what? I've always, I've loved thinking, do you prove, I've loved proving people right.

1:37:22I've loved proving people right.

1:37:27Damien, Jake, there's so many things I want to pick up from that conversation. I think the first one is this idea that there's so clearly two sides to Joe Hart. I loved it when he spoke about I had to be the warrior. You know, everyone had an opinion of him in the tunnel against Iceland. And then you hear him say, well, it was my responsibility to make those guys feel that I was there fighting for them, scrapping for them. I needed them to see big, broad shoulders and take that on. And yet at the same time, there's the Joe Hart, who is deeply emotional, talking about his time at Celtic, has this incredible ability to reflect and look at what life's brought him.

1:38:01And I think the reason why he was so emotional is I think he just has a really deep gratitude for the incredible journey that football took him on. Well, you just described those two halves and he offered that really neat encapsulation of the guy that's shouting and screaming in the tunnel that's got that wild side to him, as he said, and then the bloke that closes his eyes after kick-off and just gives himself a moment of gratitude that he's a young lad from Shrewsbury representing his country on the biggest stage. Those two sides are not mutually exclusive. They're one of the same person. Not many do that.

1:38:34How many other elite sports people have you spoken to where they say, oh, before every big game, it might take a moment just to reflect on the journey. Very few. Yeah, very few. And I think that, but those two parts make up the whole of him, who's a more complex, nuanced, fascinating character than what the media or what a stereotypical view of a footballer would be. I thought it was incredible to listen to him. You know how we often overcomplicate stuff? I love that right at the very beginning, when he talks about one of his early challenges at Manchester City, the advice he's given by his by his love coach is the most simple bit of advice you could ever imagine but it worked again lean into people do you know anything about this person do you know anything about his family anything about his own struggles because the moment that we connect with somebody is the moment that we can actually build that relationship I remember Joe Wicks talking about his own father and he said that connection is the antidote to addiction that we often want to push people away when we're angry or we're upset or with disillusion with them.

1:39:40Whereas actually the most effective way is to bring them close and to find common ground and that was a great example of where any of us could do that. If you've got something in your life that you're not getting the results out of, you're not getting the best out of them, lean into them rather than lean away from them and see where that takes you. Thank you mate. Thanks mate. So there you go, two sides to Joe Hart and both of them thoroughly extraordinary. The warrior who needed to be the last line of defence for everyone around him and the kid from Shrewsbury who never lost that pure love for the game.

1:40:11And I suppose the big thing that I took from this conversation, I remember talking to Damien about it afterwards, is that those two things aren't in conflict. They're actually the entire point. The intensity was also the gratitude. The fight was also the joy. Like it's okay in life to have, I think, two sides to ourselves. If this one resonated, please share it with someone who needs to hear it. I really hope you enjoy the World Cup. The kickoff times are ridiculous, aren't they? I'm trying to work out if I can watch a single World Cup game with my son. I'm not sure it's going to happen. But listen, if you haven't already subscribed to High Performance, please do.

1:40:45Please pass this on to somebody. And wherever you get your podcasts, keep on enjoying the show. Keep on leaving comments. Keep on sharing and chatting to us. We've been going now for seven years, would you believe? But thanks for joining us. Hey, stay humble, stay curious, stay empathetic. And we'll see you next time.

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