Joe Hart: The truth about why I retired, and my love for Celtic (Part2)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance app. loved it. And then also, I'm a high-level goalkeeper who stands in goal for some serious teams, has some very important people look back and think, don't worry, Joe's taking care of it. It's just a million miles an hour, a million miles an hour. Next game, fighting for this title, playing for England, tournament, love it. So when you get the message from Pep Guardiola that you're not the right man for him? It was a great man who had a vision that I didn't fit into. It was frustrating. When you reflect on your England career? All the times that we went out at tournaments, we just fell the wrong side of tight games at the tournament.

1:04See you later. Pack your bags. Off ski. So today, attention turns to when Joe left Manchester City after being told by Pep Guardiola that he wouldn't feature in his plans. After that, you'll hear that hard times followed, but Joe ended up quite simply a legend in Scotland. This is a really emotional conversation. I can't wait for you to hear it. I'm Jay Comfrey and alongside Damien Hughes, we learn from the story, struggles and successes of our guests, allowing us all to find our own version of high performance. So let's do it then. It's time for part two with Joe Hart. But first, a few messages from our valued partners who are so important for us to keep this show free for you.

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3:44What stage of your career did you become a leader? the guy that you wanted people to rely on? I honestly don't know. And to class myself as it is tough. But I've just kind of always wanted to be, I've always not wanted to lead, but I just wanted to have, I've wanted to have a relationship with my team, with my teammates, whatever that may be, and then feel together. And often my attitude and how I am has elevated me to a point where people would stick me out but I it it kind of resonates with me that I stand too I stand behind the captain I stand with my team behind me like that's always been my feeling always how I wanted to feel so whether I have been or haven't been that's how I've that's just me that's how that's how I that's how I behave but I love I love having people in front of me I love people having I've always loved helping the captains I've never been a captain I've always loved helping the captain.

4:42If I can help the manager, if I can soften the blow for things, I've always wanted to do that. And that phrase that you used about you love the idea of all being together, how would you create an environment where people would feel that they were all together? Getting to know everyone. I think football's one of the most amazing sports where, especially high level, you're getting people from all over the world. And it's very hard for them to just come in and have people to have a personality because you've got different cultures, you've got different ways of living, you've got people in different stages of their life.

5:18And having a conversation with someone, just giving them a little bit of time, giving them a little bit of freedom to be just kind of who they are. And then I wouldn't even try and create an environment. I just want people to feel comfortable and the more comfortable people feel, the better the environment is. so I'd say that would be one of my tools that I'd used but it's not a tool I use I just really like doing it and I loved seeing people become more comfortable and even the more difficult boys if you really really dug they weren't being difficult because they wanted to cause trouble it was because they were just a bit uncomfortable what was going on with them or how they were feeling and don't get me wrong it's not down to four-hour chats and but it's just letting people know like you can you can you can chill like this is a safe place you can be yourself whoever that is whoever that version of you is it's cool we're going to make it work for this team and beauty of football as it's been with me if it doesn't work for you there's a transfer window coming up so don't cause yourself drama or cause this team drama for any amount of time because it's a lot of effort it ultimately doesn't get you anywhere and there's a big wide world out there there's millions of teams that you can go and play for so just just dig in it's so nice to sit and have a really sort of honest and open vulnerable conversation like this and you know when Damien asked you what makes a good culture and you talk about well safety really the ability to be you that's really what we're trying to achieve with this show is this comfortable for you to talk like this now do you enjoy it I love it I absolutely love it because I don't feel I don't feel vulnerable here I feel like you're asking the right questions you're asking them for the right reasons um I'd imagine a lot of people get a lot of comfort from the guests that you get to to feel comfortable but i can i can when you're trying to work out who you are like we all are in life and i don't know who i am yet like i'm not i haven't cracked it at all and i don't claim to have cracked it but you learn things through the way and i've always felt best when i've just spoken honestly yeah um but answer to your question a great environment yeah really great environment and you're doing a great job and it's it's a pleasure to sit here and i think the reason why it matters is it's so easy for us to sit here and talk about all the things we have all the highs the great moments the titles the trophies representing your country shoulders out all of that and that's great for people to be entertained by but i think the true depth here is actually some of the challenges that that we all go through we have this image that a footballer is bulletproof and particularly for someone like you that seemed so confident from the outside this is like the real joe hart we get to see now so can we talk about a period where it was tough and actually what it was like on the inside rather than the perception from the outside.

8:05This period of going to Torino, which I think by all accounts was fun and I can see the smile on your face straight away, but then West Ham and then Burnley and then Spurs. What would you like to share with us about that period in your career? Torino was a strange part of my life before. The manager had come in. It was mid-August by the time. it was pretty certain that I needed to go elsewhere. So I was looking elsewhere. I was, like I say, I had three years left on an unbelievable contract. A contract that I'm forever grateful, but I felt I earned. Anyway, it was a tough contract for someone to take on.

8:47And you know how the goalkeeping market works. People have got their number ones. Certainly got their number ones who are getting those sorts of contracts or would demand those sorts of transfer fees. so I was a little bit like, where am I going to go here? Anything that I kind of thought was going to happen, got snuffed out. We got late. I think it was maybe 27, 28 of August, maybe. That's me. So something must have happened then late in that summer where you just thought, actually, I need to get out of here. No, no, I was constantly like that. But it wasn't desperation. It was like, that's what I need to do.

9:21Constant communication with the club. I was still, the manager was playing Willy Caballero because the club weren't going to bring anyone in, even though I knew that it was either Testegen or Bravo that we were trying to bring in but they needed me gone to which I was like I'll go because I need to go because I need to play Sam Allardyce's first England camp I went and sat down with Sam he said look if you can play football you're in my team I'm comfortable with how you play I think you're going to be important and then I don't know how I don't know how the maths or the calculations came about but I was told that I could go to Torino I was like, right, okay.

10:01Didn't ask any more questions. Spoke to Patrick Vieira, who'd played for Juventus, obviously the same city. It's a beautiful city. We didn't get into it or why. And then I spoke to the late Sinisa Mihailovic, who Alexander Kolarov knew. And he said, come play. Come and play for me. You can come and play for me. I want you to come and play for me. So I said, all right, I'll come and play for you. I didn't really get into the depths of how it worked because I don't think it should work, but it did. I asked my wife what she thought and she said, you know, let's go. Why not? Because I told her that, look, if I don't go, it could be a problem for me playing for my country and I'm not going to get in at Manchester City.

10:51So we took it and we went and it was a beautiful club. Amazing club to play for, amazing city, very up and down, kind of good some games, not good some games. I'd say personally I played okay. I wasn't elite level that I would put myself at, but it can't be great all the time. And it was in a different environment. And I said, you know what, I'm just going to enjoy it for what it is. Trying to get beautiful, beautiful support and try and make the most out of it and then look to move permanently the next summer. So I've still got two years left on my deal. Or three, I don't know. Anyway, the reason I talk about the length of my contract is because the club, even though they didn't want me, they couldn't just give an England goalkeeper away for free.

11:41They still, you know, I'm still a business. There's still a price tag on my head. And then I was starting to become slightly less desirable at this point because of my narrative with the greatest, one of the greatest coaches in the world wasn't feeling me. But can I ask you there, during that year, that first year when Guardiola comes in, the club aren't doing well. His vision isn't being materialised. The goalkeeper they brought in to replace you wasn't tearing up any trees. What was your perception of that looking back from Italy? I tried not to have one because I didn't want to cause myself any bother of something that I had no control over.

12:20I knew the club worked hard to get this coach. I knew this coach was going to be successful. So he was going to get the time and if it didn't work then it would work in the future. So emotionally I didn't get too involved in it.

12:36No, I didn't. I'm not even trying to get away from it. I didn't. You said there like one of the world's most celebrated coaches was the man that didn't want me and that brings an additional sting. Like did that hurt you as well? The fact that it wasn't just a another coach. This is Pep Guardiola saying no. No, because he's just another guy. If you do me wrong, he deserves everything that he gets. He's stepped up at the highest level, but I'd still had plenty of important people and I still believed in myself. So you can't be everyone's cup of tea. And it's not like he wasn't picking me for his Sunday league team.

13:12He didn't want me to be in one of the greatest teams proven now in the world. So there's other levels, there's other teams to go to, there's other opinions. but when it comes to the football world of where you fit, that makes it more difficult. And that's not, football's a business, right? It's a high-end business, billion pound industry, and there's lots of people who want to be involved in it. And whilst your stock's high, you can dictate the market. If it dips, others will rise. You fit in financially, you need to work into people's packages. and I was struggling and put on top of that I was had a difficult perception of my previous tournament in France with England so we got that to not being wanted Manchester City then having a okay season by probably many people's standards but to the standard of which I put myself to my stock's not high but again three years left probably a huge price tag on my head people that all of a sudden weren't willing to pay where maybe three years previously if i'd have been offered i'd have had a lot of opportunities but now it's what does it bring what does joe hart bring what sort of how does that would that be celebrated as a signing would it i don't think it would necessarily with the money that would probably be needed to be asked uh that's the business side of me thinking um so i was like i need to go permanent i really need to go permanent nothing permanent materialized few good loan options incredible loan options West Ham being one of them which I was really excited I had to climb down from my stance of I needed to go permanently I didn't want to be a 30 year old loanee business meant that I couldn't and there wasn't anything for me so you know I'll take the loan and I'd love to go and be part of West Ham.

15:03That was probably, as a player, I didn't reach my levels that year. Slavan was in. The mood was indifferent around the new London Stadium. West Ham's the kind of place that if you play well, I'm sure you'll be lauded, but I don't know that feeling. I played okay, and then in big moments, wasn't great. David Moyes came in, decided to take me out of the team so at this point it's not looking good for me uh where I am in the in the football world I'm still you're asking where I am from a from a head point of view I'm just doing my best working hard being around my teammates constantly looking to improve you thinking at this point if I do well at West Ham I could go back and prove Pep wrong I get back in the city first team no that in your head that's no never never even crossed my mind but I don't think I didn't think about i didn't think about if i do well i was thinking i need try and do well you know i i didn't want to get caught in the chess moves of if i did this and then if i did that then maybe i'll go here right i didn't get i didn't want to get lost in that i was old enough to know that like what matters is what i'm doing every day that i step on the training ground every day that i get the chance to step on the into a match situation yeah and if you thought about why the performances weren't what you wanted and i wonder whether it's anything to do with this narrative having changed i mean i was looking at some newspaper articles around the time that you went to west ham and i'm not even going to name them because they don't deserve any credit but one of them wrote like joe hart's five biggest blunders west ham fans better get ready for some mistakes and then i will name this one the daily telegraph did a whole article about your vulnerable low down to your left or something like that i'm thinking when did this become the conversation around joe hart you know i don't know i don't know and but i don't blame people for writing those articles i don't blame people for sensationalizing uh what could be perceived as a downfall because that is the work that is the world and the business that i'm in like i say it's it's not ideal like we all want our tires pumped up and rightly so i've had some incredible headlines written about me but it's whatever you know like i say i i just really want to stay in the moment stay on the training field and try my best every day to try to prove to the people around me that mattered.

17:22You know, it was David Moyes at the time, proved that I was worthy of another go. I wasn't thinking about the chess move that came from it. Or at this time, I was still playing for England. I didn't know that it was going to cost me my England place. But I just was trying to stay in the moment. And I stayed in the moment. And look, it didn't work out. I didn't, I didn't, I came out of the England team. I didn't finish the season at West Ham. But I was okay with that because I was in the moment and I was doing everything that I could. and everything that I'd done when I was stood there with Premier League titles around my neck.

17:53England caps, England captain's armband. I was doing exactly the same things or working to the same, not the same things because we all evolved, but I mean with the same principles and same energy and same focus. It just wasn't working for me in the wide world of football, but nothing was saying, nothing's promised, nothing's given. I wasn't owed anything. So I was just, and I just thought, you know what, I'm going to really, I'm going to stay strong, stay focused, stay in it. And I thought, I'll get what I'm due. And we have attempted to engage in anything that might have been perceived as gimmickry.

18:32You know, like looking for something new or different, or, you know, some people would reach out for superstitions. In Tony Cascarino's famous book, he spoke about he started to dye his hair darker because he didn't want to give the impression that any grey hairs would mean and he's getting old, and therefore that narrative starts to establish him, oh, he's an old man now. Were you tempted to do anything like that? Do you know what I loved watching recently was the quarterback documentary on Netflix, and I loved watching how all of them, but particularly Mahone's, all the stuff that he did off the field, and if I were to start again now, I'd probably look at something like that, but this was only two years ago, and I was pretty set and physically I was at my maximum with the load that I was doing.

19:20But there was an energizer bunny that when I was his age, you had more. But I felt I still got respect that at the time when I was that age, that I was still doing everything I possibly could. So it's not like I was leaving something away. It's just now I learned more. So I don't regret that I didn't do it then, but it just made me smile. But no, in answer to your question, I always feel and felt like I was pushing myself to the limit and getting everything out of myself um and like I say sometimes it was it had great results and sometimes it had pretty average ones but were you tempted to do anything even to try and shift the narrative so that like maybe do more media appearances you know like maybe do something to curry favor with no I didn't I didn't I like I say i respect that world and i respect that people people have opinions and and will sensationalize good and bad but like it was completely out of my control and what i knew was in my control like i say it brought me into a place where i feel comfortable my feet were on the ground gloves were on my hands and i felt like i could i could push myself to the limit what's the biggest you learned?

20:34To stay in the moment, stay really, really present, try my best to get the most out of it, not look for shortcuts, and enjoy the moment, enjoy the tough times, enjoy the good times, and don't let them necessarily dictate who and what you are. But as a father and a husband, would your wife or your children have noticed any difference in you during this tough time? Perceived half-time. It was not perfect for me football-wise. I don't know, I'd imagine so. I'd imagine there'd be tells. Like, there's no point in saying that I was skipping around happy, but it's just a focus. Like I say, it was a focus and it was an energy to be at my best.

21:18But the reason I ask Joe is because I'm interested for anyone listening to this that might want to offer a helping hand to people in their lives that need it at that time. and I'm interested in, did they do anything that you felt had? Love this, love this. How are you coping, first time, the first period we talked about, how are you coping with, you know, not being in the team? I'm all right. What are you, you know, your dad, your mom, wife, how are they? What do they ask you? How are you, how are you? And what do you tell them? Yeah, I'm all right, I'm all right. All right, I'm going to flip it.

21:52How would you behave if you felt like one of them was struggling? What would you want to do for them? I'd want to help them. Right, okay, so why would you not let them take part of your burden? And immediately, yeah, you're right, because me thinking I'm protecting everyone, it's fine, it's fine, relax, I'll get through it, it's fine. But I would never let that happen to someone who I cared about, ever. I'd want to take them, let them know that everything's all right, let them know that, look, it's just a moment in time. And that was a huge moment for me, and it really helped me with relationships, all my relationships because when you think I thought I was protecting I wasn't I was probably just I was leaving people in the cold and people that cared about me and wanted to wanted to help and wanted to love and I wasn't letting them so that was that was actually a really good moment and something that I use I use a lot now when I speak to people when they're when uh when I see young players or middle of their career players who are just kind of got that like I'll be all right i'm getting through it uh that it's it's a really empowering thing to have help and have a good team around you would you take us to the moment where you decided to say oh right there soon as soon as he said that as soon as soon as i realized just like when he said so what's xavi's family like and i did i couldn't answer him the guy that i'd worked with for three months i'd asked him one question about himself so did you go home and tell your wife yeah i'm a dad i'm a mom and my boys and my gang.

23:26What did you say to them? Exactly what happened. I laughed about it. After West Ham came Burnley and then Tottenham, what was the hardest period for you in this part of your career? Burnley, I came in. Obviously, I spoke with Sean, a man who's on a real level. He told me he thought he could bring me an opportunity and I could help him and he could help me. I agreed with him. came in obviously in amongst Tom and Nick you know two awesome goalkeepers two guys I love the pieces as well but you know circumstances injuries football I thought I was playing I thought I did okay as in fact I played well I thought I played well I was happy with my levels but I came out the team because the team weren't winning which is difficult but man's got to make a decision he told me that he'd made he changed every player in the team he hadn't changed me so he was going to do that he had tom heat and fit and ready to play tough but he's got to do what he's got to do the world again does not revolve around me excuse me tom came in did excellent fully fully asserted himself as a back in after um you know a tough couple of months for him who was living his own story in his own life and i'm sure would have a great conversation with you about his time there but it wasn't mine uh i came out finished the rest of the season on the bench for tom and then this was the window where I thought you know open dialogue with the club if you if you need to go somewhere Joe go and do it you know you've got our backing thank you no no animosity and I looked and there was there was nowhere for me to go literally nowhere I think I'm one of three at this point uh there probably was there probably was some conversations of somewhere to go but Nowhere I thought, nowhere that I wanted to play.

25:16And how did that feel? I don't know. It didn't feel anything. It was, yeah, it wasn't disheartening. It was just everyone around me at that time was, I'd asked to deal in facts. So I was getting facts. That's what I asked for. But your ego isn't going, hold on, I'm Joe Hart. I'm available on a free. Why are people not bashing the door down here? well because the the footballing world makes the the right decisions so if if i'm not fitting i'm not fitting it's not it's you know no one's there's no personal vendetta about stopping me from playing the game no one was i'd imagine not many people were going nah no chance they were just going you know what no it doesn't work for us we prefer go down this route doesn't work for us we'd go down this route because i know for a fact that you couldn't it's not like people are and we've heard he's a bad person, he's a bad egg.

26:09It was none of that. It was just I didn't fit anywhere that I wanted to play. And what can you do? I still had a year at Burnley. I said, all right, I'll stay and I'll play. And Tom went. Nick was back fit. An incredible goalkeeper. Incredible goalkeeper for Burnley. And I just had to... The window closed. So then I had to accept my position and do my best to do my best for Burnley. The team that employed me. Great group of guys. great group of players uh who were doing something that just didn't involve me at the time but still part of the squad so stay fit stay strong stay active january comes around what's available um again not surprised nothing's available nothing i wanted to do and then covid came so covid came and obviously that threw everything into the air made made everything difficult for everyone i think i think my contract expired during whatever transfer window was concocted during that time uh to which i felt right okay i'm free to just take a breath here um i'm out of contract i need to be open to all conversations to which i obviously want to play i love i love playing football um then i was able to have conversation with one club about potentially coming in as not as a one but to work and then jose wanted to speak to me about potentially working at tottenham to which i knew for well you know hugo's there but he wanted to have a conversation with me to which i said i can't speak to him until we've till everything else is off the table because i know i know him i know if i speak to him i'm done i'm signing like he's an amazing person uh you know so and it wasn't a conversation like he's he's a grown-up it wasn't a conversation where he'd come and say you know i knew he wasn't going to say look if you do well you'll be number one i knew what the conversation would be it would be a support to a top class goalkeeper um who you never know might not play in for injury or loss of form but very highly unlikely hugo's an elite operator but anyways it got to the point where i was like let's speak spoke to him i told him where i'm at i told him i understood what what would be asked of me and I'd love to come and help, if I can help Tottenham and help him.

28:32I said, look, I'm not telling you, I don't expect to come in as one. I want to come and help the team, the squad, and as long as you respect that, then you'll have a top-class person and goalkeeper, to which he said, come on down. So I went down. So Tottenham would probably be seen as a difficult time. It wasn't, because I said, when I agreed to go to Tottenham, I said to my people around me, I said, I need to accept the worst-case scenario. if I'm going to sign up to this because I need to accept that I might not play a minute and it might be a very frustrating year for me. So I'm going to accept that in front of all of you.

29:07So that I, and you will never hear me moan about not playing a game. Obviously in the conversations, it would be, you know, Hugo's an older goalkeeper. There'd be moments where we're going to need you in the Cups and the Europa League. That was what was the conversation, but that's not promised. That's not, there's no contract that I signed that says that comes with it. So it wasn't a difficult year for me. It wasn't. I played the games that I played. When I did, I played well. I did my best to help in and around. It was great to be around that environment. Son, Kane, you know, back with Eric, Heuberg, Jose Mourinho.

29:45It was a proper environment. It's a COVID year. There's no fans. It's strange for all of us, really strange. but that wasn't anything other than I'd signed up for and to try and get the best out of it and I did feel good there I felt like I helped I felt like an important part of the squad but whatever it's perceived how it is but I'm sure I'd like to think if you spoke to anyone who was part of that squad then they'd say the same thing Joe did his best to help the team like I have done when I played or not played I love that bit that you just threw in there Joe about you've got your people around you and you outlined, this is what I'm signing up for here.

30:24I'm not expecting to play. No, I'm not expecting to play. But... I'm saying, look, I wanted to play 50 games for Tottenham. Of course, when I signed on the dotting line, that's what I wanted. But I said, you won't hear me complaining if... And that's the bit that really intrigues me. Why was that so important to publicly state that to your group that you weren't going to complain? So no one thought that I was being deluded and no one thought that in the back of their head their advice would be to me if I went, you know what, I've got this great opportunity at Tottenham. And if I start pre-season well and get in the team, I know we go way back and I know 90 % of them would go miles off it.

31:08What are you doing? You're deluded. You've lost the plot. And rightly so. I would have been deluded to say that. We all felt it as a team. We all felt that I do get an opportunity and if however the cards fall I get an opportunity but I think there's a huge difference between that being a possibility and that being the reason that we're going yeah yeah so I wanted to get it out like this is not me being defeatist these are me saying for us to move forward and us to all be comfortable with what's going on I want you to all know that I do realise what I'm walking into here I love that though because it reminds me of like when we spoke to Steve Hansen who was the head coach of the New Zealand rugby union team he reveled in dealing with uncomfortable truths that idea of like let's lean into these things rather than deny them and pretend it won't happen let's lean into them and discuss the uncomfortable truth and that seems to be a hallmark of high performers like Steve and like yourself how important have you found being prepared to confront uncomfortable truth you know what I've loved I've loved in all moments good bad or indifferent I've loved I've loved clarity and that was me being clear yeah and that's when I've felt the best and I don't mean performance wise not a performance wise I mean at best in how I behave and how I want to I want to act when I've got clarity like I say like very easily could that be seen as someone who's waving the white flag but I think if you're open and clear like everyone, like I say my people they know me and they understand that I'm going there to do business but I'm also not deluded and I'm also realised that I'm going to have to be part of a greater good of which I was trying to be And how did it end at Tottenham?

33:07Not well Didn't need to end how it ended if honest the new manager came in I think the club realised that they needed to make changes he had different ideas of which i wasn't one of them right um yeah a bit of a random conversation about where i stood what did he say he said that he didn't feel comfortable no because i i'd asked him said do we need to have a conversation because i knew they were bringing another goalkeeper in yeah obviously hugo was number one club captain so it's like doing the maths and it didn't quite work uh so i said do we need to have a conversation yeah we'll have a conversation after training this was a couple of weeks in you go first he said that you know he wouldn't feel comfortable playing me he didn't feel like i was a level to which could work in one of his teams which is fine like i did yeah if that's how he felt then fair enough but he was wrong one and two if you need me to go just tell me like i'm a growing up you can have a you can have a good conversation but he might have felt that i might be wrong i might be completely wrong.

34:11I didn't feel it needed to go that way. Whatever. Like I say, the world doesn't revolve around me. And then I had a year left on my contract and Tottenham being the business that they are. Obviously, then needed to move me on. And I was quite cool with, okay, that's enough now. Yeah. That's enough.

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36:39had you not got a bit more personal than that though Nuno did I read is that no what you read it would have been what he said but I can't remember what it was but what I said and what you read would have been what was said so it was something like you wouldn't play a minute for me yeah or you haven't got you've not got the strength yeah that was it there's a moment in your life where in your career, maybe he was giving me advice in his opinion as apparently he played in goal. Maybe he felt that at some point and he felt like he saw that in me. I didn't agree, but whatever. That's what he felt he needed to do and that's what the club needs to do.

37:13But yeah, like I say, club, Tottenham then need to, they're a good business. They're not going to have me sat there and two other goalkeepers because Pierre Gallini was already in the door. But I kind of went home. I was like, you know what? I've had enough. That's cool. I think I'm okay with this being my final page. I feel like I've got a lot to give, but there's no real space for me in the footballing world anymore. I've had a good ride, so no problem. We'll chill. And then the club, I think, obviously put the feelers out, and I'd spoken to whispers of speaking to Celtic previously, of which immediately got me interested.

37:56and then they've said would you have a conversation with Ange Postacoglu I said of course I will like I'm always open to conversations completely open why not I didn't know Ange I didn't know what I didn't know his pedigree I knew that he'd just become Celtic manager and spoke to him and it was a very very very honest conversation especially from my point of view I said look please don't let me come across as defeatist but I'm in a spot here where I'm I don't know if I want to be a part of the professional world of football anymore I said I'm not sad, I'm not down I just don't feel I fit and for me to fit I said I need to be I need to be given a chance I need to be understood and I want the opportunity to play I said just please listen to me when I'm saying I'm not telling you to do that I'm saying that's what I need to get the best out of me and Andrew, an incredible, incredible man manager said, you know what, I've done my research on you so I'm not going to try and fill you out as a person.

39:01He said, I've spoke to enough people about you for me to not have to even make a decision. He said, football-wise, I can't promise you anything but I can promise you an opportunity. So if you do come up here and you do want it, I feel like it could work. and I said you know I also said family wise I said football's not number one in our house anymore so if I do come I'm coming on my own I said but you don't have to trust me you don't know me but just trust me that I'm all in I'm completely all in but I will be working between the two on days off and things like that so I don't want that to upset you and if that's going to upset you and upset the balance in the dressing room then I'm putting all my cards on the table and he said look look I can't tell you how it's all going to work, but that's not a big no-no for me.

39:53I feel like we can start a relationship and we can go from there. Which I said, that's enough. That's enough for me. That's enough. The fact that you're even willing to listen to my so-called demands, they're not demands, but what would really make me tick and potentially get the best out of me. I'd do anything for you. Let's do this. So, bam, bam, bam. Tottenham, obviously. I think it was muted that there was some sort of price or some sort of transfer fee. Not that I'm aware of. It was contract done. Can I get myself up the road? To which I did. Mate, that feels like a really brave thing. I think even when you've gone, I think I'm done with football.

40:34That's one thing. To then get an opportunity at a club as big as Celtic and still say to the manager, look, I don't feel I fit in football anymore. That takes some bravery. Maybe a bit of fit. I was just being honest I did not think that I could do it I knew I could do it didn't you worry though that like this could remove an amazing opportunity if I say this no because I wanted to be honest with someone I just wanted to tell them the truth and I didn't feel I didn't know Celtic at the time but I knew enough about them that you don't mess with you don't mess with that club in terms of you don't play games if that conversation was with someone else maybe slightly local to him do I say those things maybe not maybe not because I'm like you know what because it's work at the end of the day.

41:16You can't get away from it. This is a job. You're a professional footballer. You don't have to love it. I'm just lucky that I do. And most of the places I've gone, I've been madly in love with it. But if I was going to go up there, I needed to be in love with it. I needed to be given the opportunity to fall in love with it. So I didn't feel vulnerable, no. And when people talk about Ange, I mean, one of the features that often comes out is man management, is ability to build relationships. and you've spoken about that being something important to you. Once you've delivered these uncomfortable truths to him and he's decided to accept that football's not number one in your house and the different geographical arrangements, what did he do that sort of lit that spark again that made you think, I'm going to relocate to Glasgow, I'm going to go all in?

42:05Nothing, just let me be. I didn't need anything else. I don't need anything else to be lit. there's a spark in me always he just let it burn you got something out of you though that Tottenham didn't, Burnley didn't West Ham didn't, something happened I don't know I don't know because at Burnley I don't feel that I played badly, I still felt like I was playing well it just obviously didn't we didn't do well as a team Tottenham, I signed up for something where kind of even if you do play well there's a there's a well-established top goalkeeper that they've already got on their books who unless anything ridiculous happens so like i say i was still excuse me at a level that i felt was my level what i think is very interesting about this right is that we all have a perception of what we think you have to be to be a good footballer right and we have a perception of what you don't need to be to be a good footballer and actually if we look at your career right when you were absolutely 100 % all in in the tunnel for England right people were using that as criticism right but then fast forward 10 12 whatever years to when you're at Celtic and you're basically going look this football's no longer number one and look at the performance you're putting in so maybe we need to totally rethink it's still number one in my in my in my being in my doing you had a freedom I think of like it wasn't everything anymore was it it wasn't what it was when you were 18 but i've always it wasn't everything then i wasn't thinking how can i get to the top it was just absolutely play and enjoy it like i still so i don't know if i've not communicated it right but when i said it wasn't number one in my house it was that there were far more important people in terms of stability and and a living situation but it was still once i was in glasgow and once i was on the training field I wasn't thinking about anything else but you had freedom maybe like you were more mature you had other things in your life and that was probably good for you no I think that was the same been the same lunatic yeah I don't know I might be wrong yeah like what you're saying makes sense but I'm just I just want to be really clear that I'm still as passionate as involved it's just living wise that was it so what was the situation like at home where you've gone home from Tottenham and said I think the chapter's closed now or maybe football's done and then however long after he then did it saying I'm going to relocate up to Glasgow what was their reaction?

44:42It was just a constant communication like I say from when I learnt that all that time ago to because I could have easily just said just bear with it we'll see what happens but instead I was like I went home and I said you know what I'm not sensationalising this I don't know whether I don't know because when you need a new club you need to fight for it you need to search for it you need to be on the phone to your agent you need to be working out who's like doing the chess moves that's what i've loved not doing the chess moves if he goes here and he goes there's an opportunity i said i'm not i'm not in that zone anymore you're not going to hear me trying to work out a situation if this is what it needs to be then this is what it is obviously to which you know she said and everyone around me you know you've got a lot more to give i said yeah i know that but there's no point in me putting my energy into something that's not there and you know like say that everyone's been on the on the ride and understood that that's true they couldn't really argue it's true yeah i was only telling the truth um so it wasn't a case of not having the energy or not being good enough there just wasn't necessarily a place and then i come home and i got told that to have a conversation so i just passed that on and i had the conversation went i walked in and passed how it went how are you feeling i quite like the sound of it okay keep me updated right If I do go, I've told them that you're going to stay.

45:58Right. Let's talk about Celtic. Right. Tell us about Celtic Football Club. What do you want to know? Whatever you want to tell us. I don't know. I don't know. It's a special place that will forever be in my heart and a team that I support and I'm incredibly proud to play for and a great experience. Something that I'm very, like I say I'm very proud to have done. So from the outside we think we know what it must feel like to play for Celtic like a big club you know amazing atmosphere passionate fans. Glasgow is this goldfish bowl of pressure expectation passion. What is it actually like to play for Celtic?

46:39It's all those things but at the same time it's very personal in such magnitude there's a real personal feel to it especially being up there getting to know people you know making friends everyone associated with the club very much wanting to find out how you are how you feel you know how they feel you're performing what they feel can be better um always something on the horizon always you know some sort of madness bubbling away brewing uh always some sort of adventure around the corner um just a really high octane place to play football and and a really really enthralling thing that I absolutely loved and it was everything that I love about football.

47:25And can you tell us how it felt to suddenly be central to a team again after a few years in the wilderness perhaps to be perceived to be playing brilliantly to be picking up trophies like to be almost back to how it how it started. It felt right it felt right you know we talk about If I look at my career, I know we've probably gone into more depth about less than 10 % of it because that's what's interesting. I get that bit's interesting, I really do, because a lot more thoughts and a lot more emotional decisions were made. But the majority of my career has been a number one, has been playing well, has been leading, has been lifting trophies.

48:11So it felt right. And you said after your final game, I've never felt professionally this special my entire life. Could you explain that? So I got to do something really unique, I think, because football's a fast business, fast business. And I decided I was going to finish. I wanted to own the fact that I was going to finish. I told people early. I told a truly special football club that I wanted to finish with them because I loved them I didn't want anything else I didn't want anything else from football whether it had anything to offer me I don't know didn't even put myself didn't have to do those chess moves if he moves here didn't even want to go into that and spoke from the heart about something that was and it might not have gone well we could have easily you know we were probably second in the league when I said it and we had a cup final where we were going to have to play our greatest rivals I could have walked away potless in my last season.

49:12But I just wanted people to know that even though I was finishing, I wanted to finish strong and then did finish strong, got into a beautiful flow. The team really clicked. Brendan really got us playing how he wanted to play. We got who we were and we started to really perform. And the buzz of the club, like no matter how many trophies they win, when you're playing well, it's an absolute buzz. the drums were going, the fans were singing the flares were going off and it was just an incredible feeling and then there was they asked me to do a they asked me to do a a night with Joe Hart to which I immediately said because I said when I wanted to retire that I didn't want to talk about it I wanted to do what I needed to do say what I needed to say do the press that day and then we'll deal with everything else after the season because the team comes first winning the league comes first and they asked me would you do a night with Joe Hart with about a month to go I said no and then I said you know what, scrap that you're willing to do that for me they were like we'd love to do that for you I said that's amazing that's absolutely beautiful and I don't feel comfortable doing it but I'm going to do it because for you to even come here and ask me to do that is special just let me know what I need to do so we did a night we did a night with with Joe Hart feels weird talking about my name but that's what it was and what was it fans invited to come and do a Q &A yeah it was a it was a Q &A on stage we brought a few people up Dave Watson came up Micah did a bit for me Brendan and Callum were on Brendan and Callum on stage a 90 minute show they put it out to the real because my I made some great friends up there Billy, Tom and Ewan shout out who made my life great up there.

51:05We did a lot of golf together, spent a lot of time together. And they were, one of them's a, you know, whatever class fan where he gets the tables and stuff like that. And he said, they hardly put out to anyone. And it was a 700 people sellout and they got that within an hour, which was like, which was special, which was, and I didn't really get the magnitude and I didn't actually, I didn't invite enough people from down south, but last minute I ended up getting a few people up because I didn't know what was going on. I was like just sat on stage and just went through it and just really enjoyed talking about my experience and being honest and loving the fact that I'd done it.

51:40So that was special. Then we managed to win the league. You know, we had a really great derby win at home. No, we went away, drew three all in a mental game. Then that put, I think we were still points behind, but it meant that a win at home a couple of weeks later it would mean that we'd be in the driving seat. And we won that game. It was an unbelievable game, tight game. And then semi-final, missed a penalty, saved a penalty. Like the story was just getting a bit silly. I actually said in the warm-up at the semi-final, goalie coach Stevie Woods, who I'm really close with, was exceptional for me.

52:21I pulled him about 25 minutes into the warm-up because I'd been emotional with him previously when I was going to finish. I said, I feel really uncomfortable. I said everything feels right I said I can't I'm catching everything everything I'm doing is right I said I feel really really uncomfortable because because it shouldn't it didn't feel like it should go that way like life doesn't work like that does it right you know I said just keep me grounded he's like you are but I will I was welling up in the morning I said keep me grounded because I don't like it I'm feeling a bit I'm enjoying it but I'm aware we were 1-0 down after 3 minutes So that was a nice little whack in the chops, but whatever.

53:04Anyway, then we managed to win the league. The atmosphere was unbelievable. And then we had a home game to celebrate winning the league, to which it was almost, it was like the kind of Joe Hart day, which made me uncomfortable. My teammates were unbelievable with me, like so good with me. In one way? it was getting a bit a bit much about me and they were and obviously I'm always gonna stand there and say thank you when people are being nice to me you know and they just sat back and let me be me

53:49and then we had a special last day the season a lot of fuss made not comfortable talking about it in a positive way really really nice day and then we had a cup final against our greatest rivals and we win in the 90th minute 50-50 split Hamden what can you say? it is emotional now even thinking about that period yeah I'm a happy emotional person right so I'll cry when I'm happy and I'm when I've got good things to say and that was that was me for a long for a good couple of months in that moment where you came out with that TIFO I mean watching it on the telly it was emotional at home I was watching with my little boy and he was mesmerized by it I can't imagine your emotions at that point well I didn't expect anything I really didn't I'd already got more than I ever ever could have asked for in terms of treatment and kind words and how my family were treated and then I came out for the second half and I loved that corner the green brigade I loved the energy that comes from that corner of their every away game and that bounce and the energy and the songs like that's me that's me that's I'd happily be in there and I will be in there at one point in my life the kind of like the throb the songs the the passion for the club and then I came out second half and I always I had my ball boy that I get on really well with he gives me the ball tests my gloves second half but we've won the league but I'm still still a big game I've still got you know it's my last ever time at Celtic Park and then I I caught out the corner of my eye it must have already been up I didn't even I was trying to compute what was going on like I really struggled to compute what was going on I thought is that me that's me these people then they had a song that they sang and then I had to flip out I thought I'm trying to be professional here but I've got to I've got to appreciate this as the guy we talked about previously and I did and I just took it all in and then I just had to kind of clip myself in the jaw a couple of times like right I've got work to do I've got a job to do and then I kind of took myself back into it but then we had trophy lift and families on the pitch and that club celebrates properly like what in the last 13 years won 12 leagues and still every single trophy is celebrated like it's it's everything i love that about the place um so that was a that was a special day a day that will live with me forever ever and ever and ever and everyone involved and i love like the emotion it brings up i love the gratitude you obviously have for it and this kind of feeling that I think sometimes we assume people in a position you're in they're in they feel entitled they're like of course this is happening to me you still have that wonderful almost childlike disbelief that you ended up in that position on that pitch as that guy mad scared me a little bit and I'm not a guy who's scared either like I'm not I always think you know what why not let's go what scared you it just scared me it just made me feel like this is a lot a lot of very good things happening you know not that good things haven't happened to me but i know i've i've been there i've seen how it flows um that was it that's what scared me it didn't it didn't petrify me it just made me feel like i say when i spoke to woodsy in that warm-up i said i feel uncomfortable I didn't not like feeling that way because I felt amazing like I felt amazing I was scared but also feeling great at the same time you know so Well that takes you back to that summer when you said that you felt unstoppable you know and then what follows from it is almost survival instinct to protect yourself from what you think inevitably follows Yeah yeah 100 % and I'll forget forever be on guard for that But I'm also interested that you're the ultimate team man Everything you've spoken about here is standing behind the captain, being the guy that everyone relies on.

58:07And yet you look up and it's an evening with Joe Hart. It's Joe Hart day. That's not about being a team player now. That's about you and the focus on you. And I'm interested that it feels almost uncomfortable. How did you reconcile that? I give myself a slap to get over yourself. Some amazing people are doing some amazing things for you. Show some damn gratitude. And did that incredible finish put into perspective some of the more challenging years you had before that? No, because that was the moment I was in. I didn't do those moments for that. There was no sense of proving people wrong? Prove who wrong?

58:50Anyone that didn't believe in you in those hard times, no. The right people that I needed, that mean everything to me, believed in me as a person and will continue to. so I'm not out here do you know what I've always I've loved thinking do you prove I've loved proving people right I've loved proving people right when you look back on the end of your career I wrote a note to myself that because you've used this phrase a few times are you going to miss the football business or are you going to miss the business of football more I was often asked how I was feeling over the last couple of months I didn't I didn't and still don't feel anything because I'm still in goal I'm still thinking about being a goalkeeper like so i'm probably gonna have to have that conversation with you another time because i don't know what i'm going to miss because at the moment i don't miss anything because i still feel it so i i i honestly can't answer the question but you've the reason i make a distinction between it is that you've like when you speak about being in the dressing room being on the field and being in the football business you very palpably light up when you speak around the business of football there's almost like a coldness to your of that's how it is i have to move on that's like that and i really believe that though and i really believe that you don't get the highs and you don't get the tifos and you don't get that without it being that business it's that business for a reason and it's hard to do well in it for that reason so i don't i don't feel any coldness towards it like this isn't this isn't a game this isn't a this isn't something that you sign up for and you pay your subs.

1:00:31It's a business. It's a huge business with a lot at stake, a lot of money at stake, a lot of businesses at stake. So I think you have to respect that. And I do, I really do. But I think the reason that I probably go cold is because that requires a cold attitude. Sure. Because if you get emotional to it, you're done. Yeah. But I'm interested in that you've seemed to protect it brilliantly well. That kid from Shrewsbury that just loved jumping around in football. you mentioned the example of Jamie saying you know it's playing goal so you just did it how did you protect that kid that just you know you played football because you loved it from that hard cold business because I never wanted anything from the business do you know what I mean I obviously took and there were moments in contract negotiations I was fully aware of what I felt I was worth but I didn't want anything from it If you would have asked me when I was 10, 12, what I wanted, I would have told you probably about the weekend fixture that I'm looking forward to.

1:01:36I never made statements. I didn't feel, I didn't look at England players and think I want to be one of them. I thought, buzz in England to play and I'll watch that. Or when I watched David Seaman and Pete Schmeichel growing up, I didn't think I wanted to be them. I just thought, look at them. I just loved them for what they were. So I didn't want anything from the game. so I don't feel I had to protect myself because I wasn't being stopped from doing anything I wanted to do I was always able to play football sometimes in front of stadiums or sometimes behind closed doors but I was never stopped from playing football Before we move on to our quickfire questions I think the final thing is how you feel having been given this opportunity riding on the team by Strasbury at 15

1:02:27Damien, Jake there's so many things I want to pick up from that conversation I think the first one is this idea that there's so clearly two sides to Joe Hart I loved it when he spoke about I had to be the warrior you know everyone had an opinion of him in the tunnel against Iceland and then you hear him say well it was my responsibility to make those guys feel that I was there fighting for them scrapping for them I needed them to see big broad shoulders and take that on and yet at the same time And there's the Joe Hart, who is deeply emotional, talking about his time at Celtic, has this incredible ability to reflect and look at what life's brought him.

1:03:01And I think the reason why he was so emotional is I think he just has a really deep gratitude for the incredible journey that football took him on. Well, you just described those two halves and he offered that really neat encapsulation of the guy that's shouting and screaming in the tunnel that's got that wild side to him, as he said. And then the bloke that closes his eyes after kick-off and just gives himself a moment of gratitude that he's a young lad from Shrewsbury representing his country on the biggest stage. Those two sides are not mutually exclusive. They're one of the same person. How many other elite sports people have you spoken to where they say, oh, before every big game, I take a moment just to reflect on the journey?

1:03:41Very few. Yeah, very few. And I think that, but those two parts make up the whole of him. who's a more complex, nuanced, fascinating character than what the media or what a stereotypical view of a footballer would be. I thought it was incredible to listen to him. You know how we often overcomplicate stuff? I love that right at the very beginning when he talks about one of his early challenges at Manchester City, the advice he's given by his love coach is the most simple bit of advice you could ever imagine. But it worked. yeah again lean into people do you know anything about this person do you know anything about his family anything about his own struggles because the moment that we connect with somebody is the moment that we can actually build that relationship i remember joe wicks talking about his own father and he said that connection is the antidote to addiction that we often want to push people away when we're angry or we're upset or with disillusion with them whereas actually the most effective way is to bring them close and to find common ground.

1:04:43And that was a great example of where any of us could do that. If you've got someone in your life that you're not getting the results out of, you're not getting the best out of them, lean into them rather than lean away from them and see where that takes you. Is there any part of you that fears for Joe? Because of the incredible intensity that he had to bring into his career, the warrior side of Joe that isn't going to be served. Like the other side that we've discussed, the emotional, connected, thoughtful, kind, caring, husband, son, parent, friend. I feel that's going to be well looked after because he's got a great group around him.

1:05:17I fear a bit for the warrior side of Joe Hart and where that energy goes. Well, the analogy that I had in my head when he was talking was it's almost like seeing a car slow down and we're actually in that deceleration phase, but we're not there yet. He's not stopped. I think he's fresh out of a 20-year career of being in the business of football, where he's had to be able to switch on into that warrior mode because it's served him incredibly well. And I think at the moment, he's not done enough outside of that world to understand how he can harness the power of that to his full advantage. But given how smart he is, I've no doubt that he'll find a place to be able to harness that drive, that ambition, that killer instinct to be able to do something exceptional.

1:06:03I think he's a fascinating guy with an incredible story and I can't wait to see what's next on his journey it's far from over yeah and you know what it's been a real privilege that he's chosen to get to the end of such an epic adventure and to come and share the lessons the learnings and the experiences with us and with our high performance community to be able to take away his lived experiences and apply them in our own lives thank you mate thanks mate So that's it. Look, can I just say a huge thanks to Joe Hart for wanting to come on the show, for his openness, for his vulnerability, for his honesty, for sharing some incredible stories.

1:06:43And thanks as well to you for joining us. Please stay humble, curious, and empathetic. And don't forget, you can watch the full conversation with Joe Hart over on our YouTube channel.

1:07:03Thank you.

1:07:33are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.