Joe Marler: From My Greatest Shame to Finding Purpose After England Retirement (E303)

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance App. Available now, Roman Kemp, the broadcaster, opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health. I need to look after myself more. When you're young and you're dumb and you're full of it, you're just buzzing all the time and it's just, you know, away you go. But then you sort of hit the 28 mark in rugby and then you go, oh, I'm starting to feel a little bit more now. That image of her being on the floor, crying her eyes out, seven months pregnant that's burnt into my memory of the biggest like my most ashamed I've been I think about it more now with the kids and going at any moment you take to the field or take your training training pitch that you can put yourself in a position where you can't do those things and it is very selfish That's the voice of the now former England international rugby player Joe Marler who joins us today on high performance.

1:02Hi there, my name's Jake Humphrey and like a lot of you I'm just trying to get the most I can out of my life which means I'm using my 20 plus years of experience in broadcasting to pick the brains of some of the most incredible people in the world. And I'm Damien Hughes and I've spent the last 20 years working in the world of high performance. I've been lucky enough to work alongside people to help them understand how to create environments that get the best out of themselves and others. So today we're joined by one of the most recognisable names in the rugby world. With 95 caps for England, Joe's had an incredible career for both his country and his club, Harlequins.

1:39But just a few days ago, announced he was calling time on his England career. And as he made the announcement, he said he can't keep talking about his family being his priority unless they actually are. So Damien, he's a man who has lived true to his word. Yeah, and as you're going to hear from this conversation, it's a rather unusual interview. Joe started by telling us that he actually almost pulled out of it because he wasn't sure what he could share with us about high performance. I speak for both me and you, Jake, when I say that we're really glad he didn't because we're able to hear from a man who, beneath his huge indomitable frame, nurtures a reflective and a vulnerable soul.

2:18Joe opens up to us about his mental health struggles and his eternal search for balance in life. Something which has clearly been weighing on his mind as he chooses to hang up his England shirt for the last time. I remember as he walked out of the studio after this recording, he said, wow, that was quite some therapy session. And you are about to hear this therapy session with Joe Marla as we welcome the former England rugby player to High Performance.

2:48I don't think I've been this nervous to do something for a long, long time, actually. Why are you nervous? Well, what the fuck do you want to know? Because I can't give you high performance. Of course you can. No, I can't. So what do you think high performance is? I can't answer that. I could answer it if I could Google the definition of high performance and then I'd just read that out and make it out as my own. Do you think you're high performance? No. There's always been an occasion where you feel like, oh, I'm quite good at that. I'm doing that right. But then there's also been a lot of times where you're like, I'm really shit at this.

3:21I'm failing at this. I want to share a quote that I think probably plays nicely into what we're talking about here. And it is one of your quotes, or at least I hope it is. When a ball is up in the air and it's a perfect kick, you know this one? It doesn't matter how great it looks because there's no telling which way it's going to bounce when it hits the floor. That's a bit like life. You think it's going great one minute and it all looks wonderful, but you never know which way it's actually going to take you. Tell us about that quote. that came from a mate of mine that was helping me through a period in my life that I was lost and didn't know what the fuck was going on.

4:00I just think it's a great analogy for, because you don't, rugby's like that, there's so many different things in the game, so many things going on at once, and the beauty of a rugby ball is literally you don't know where it's going to be, and that is exactly how I felt, where I was, I was like, I haven't got any control over this and I was always feeling like I needed control of it. But once you realise that you're better off just freeing yourself of that and just going with the things you can control, do you know what I mean? And I was at a pretty low point in my life and had a bit of a breakdown.

4:38And I just didn't know who I was, what my purpose was, where I was going in life and yet I had so much going for me and it was like that feeling of

4:54just being lost and empty and yet I had so much around me that I could, I didn't know how to describe it and I still don't know how to describe it but I can feel it.

5:12How You want it to all go away. Everything. It would be much better if it just all goes away. And does that come on suddenly or is it a creeping realisation? It used to... I was always described as quite bipolar. Right. One minute I'm happy as Larry, life and soul. Next minute I can't stand people. Stay away. I just want to go under the covers. lock myself away and not see a soul. That would swing quite quickly, but then it was becoming more prolonged, those periods where it would go from hourly to then daily to weekly and then monthly and then these big lulls of like, I can't be bothered to do anything here, I don't want to see anyone, all that side of it.

6:06So yeah, that's what was going on. But now, having gone through that, hit low points and got more answers and more control over who I am, what I'm doing, where I'm going, I can not predict, but I can sense things better coming. Okay. That I go, I'm going to need a bit of a break here or don't get too much on my plate at once. Yeah. And there'll be a lot of people listening to this, Joe, that can recognise some of those same symptoms for themselves. can you give us an idea on like when people talk about having a sense of purpose it can seem intimidating if we don't know what that is what that looks like how did you come to discover it for yourself i think the realization for me was that moment back in 2018 when i'd hit rock bottom and then went and got help, you know, started therapy, started medication and then started to realise what I had around me and started to prioritise what I wanted and just sit there and actually think about it, go, what do I want to get out of my life then?

7:17What is life about for me? And my beautiful wife and my wonderful kids, I was like, I've got these. That's my purpose. My purpose is to try and give Daisy, my wife, the best life she can have and create memories along the way and then try and create these little humans into big, good humans and just guide them with that. And that was like, that's my purpose. That's what I'm here for. And, you know, that's come about in the last couple of years because prior to that, it was all about me, it's all about rugby, this is my career, you've got to be selfish to do this, it's all about me and that's just an add-on brilliant and it was all about that.

8:07And it was like, it changes, your priorities change over your life, but now it is my family, me, which I found very hard a couple of years ago to actually go, hang on, what do you mean you, you're a narcissist, working on yourself or like the sort of self-love that these words people use. But it's massively important to realise you have to be in a good spot in order to be the best you can be for your family, for your teammates, for your friends. If you're just operating at 20, 30 % all the time, you're going to be no good for them. So you've got to sort that out. And then it's work. So that's my priorities that I have for me.

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10:17With Opera Air, mindfulness is built right in. You'll find free breathing exercises, guided meditations, and soundscapes with ambient sounds, lo-fi music and binaural beats, all designed to help you focus, relax and even spark creativity while you browse. There's a few things I'd love to pick up on. Funnily enough. Yeah. When you talk about... Hang on, have I got to pay for this therapy session? No, this one's free. Oh, brilliant. I'll relax now. I'll put it up. Fine, yeah, thanks. Yeah, do. Are you okay to talk about when you... Let me explain why I ask this question in the way I do. So when I was in my early 20s, I had therapy.

10:58But things felt or things looked great from the outside, which is a really common thing with people who have mental health struggles. They think, how can I put it? You've said it already. How can I possibly have a problem? I'm like, because outwardly my life's great. But I did what you did. I kind of spoke a bit in riddles. I was like, yeah, I had a tough time, but then I had some treatment, and then things got better, and then I came out of it. My issue with that is I don't think it helps other people in a similar position because they go, well, what were you feeling? What did you discuss? What was the enlightenment?

11:28And I really think if you're happy to talk in specifics, I'd love to just ask you a few questions about that. That's spot on because I think I hate using these, but the whole mental health movement actually, particularly with men, because it affects everyone, of course, but I can only speak from a male point of view and my point of view. But male mental health and the movement to now actually be more vulnerable, open up, talk about your issue. Because you just opened it up to me there immediately, you saying you're struggling in your 20s, when you've got therapy, and I was like, for me, I went, see, it's more common than you think in everyone.

12:07Everyone struggles at various points of their lives, to a different degree, of course. But it's more common than you think. But men, we always think, no, we can't ever do that. We can't ever. And you think that what you've got is far more sinister and disgusting and shameful than what anyone else has got. Yeah. No one could possibly understand. Exactly. No, that's why I'm not going to put it out there. Plus, I then don't want to be viewed as weak or weird or something like that. But if you want to talk specifics, we can talk specifics. Yeah. Yeah, for me, 2016, I was like 25, 26. I'd gone through a couple of different on-field incidents.

12:54There was one in particular against England-Wales where I ended up racially abusing a Welsh player from Traveller descent. And I had no idea, like, it was a big learning curve for me there. It exploded on social media. I didn't know where to turn, what I'd done, all that sort of thing. How did that feel? It felt really tough and that the world hated me and that I'd let everyone down. Even though I'd got my family saying to me, it's all right, you're not a racist, but everyone's calling you a racist. I didn't know what I was doing and all this sort of thing. and then you take responsibility, you accept what happened and you try and learn and move on from it.

13:42But because it was just kicked off in this small rugby bubble and then sort of breached out slightly... Overwhelming. Yeah, it was overwhelming. I was like, I need to get out of this. I just need to withdraw completely. And I pulled out of the England tour to Australia that year and thought that break would do me good. it would just relax and time away, spend time with family. And then I'd rediscover my love for rugby again. And I did. I was like, great. And I was given the opportunity by Ellie Jones to come back into the squad. I'm very grateful for that. And I was like, great, I'm feeling really, really good.

14:22You fast forward nine months, I'm starting to feel similar feelings without these incidents happening. And then other incidents, whether it's punching people, or verbally abusing people on the pitch or that sort of thing started creeping in again. And then it started creeping into home life where I was becoming very distant. I was there, but I wasn't there. I wasn't engaging with the kids, very short with the wife. The relationship was being tested and it started to dawn on me a bit. I was like, maybe this isn't just rugby related or my job related. Maybe something else is going on. Was there an incident or a moment where that dawned on you?

15:11It wasn't until 2018, because it was kept doing like patch-up jobs. I mean, I'll be all right, just have a little break or whatever. Or enforce a break by getting red carded, getting a ban. That's an easy way out, because... And you do that on purpose, knowing you could get banned and have a break? Knowing that I could get banned and do that. Because, well, I've got a bad record as it is. I know that if I do something like that, I'll get four or six weeks off. Not off off, like it's not a holiday. And that's a good enough excuse. Oh, it was just a mistake on the field. As opposed to going, I need some time off because I'm really struggling.

15:50Even that carries additional challenges because then you're having to kind of outwardly create this false impression that you did something you shouldn't have done. And inside there's a voice going, well, you did that on purpose because, you know, you're a stupid idiot, you need a break, you're weak. Do you know what I mean? Like the self-talk then is a real challenge, I imagine, at that point. Oh, God. You don't want to do self-talk in my head, mate. There's Joe 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, I don't know which Joe I am today. So it was tough, but the one incident back in 2018 where it was rock bottom, Actually, I can laugh about the start of it because it was started by a squirrel.

16:29It was Squirrelgate and me and my wife had been... We'd gone to drop the kids off somewhere to get babysat and we were getting ready to go for a party with some friends. And on the way back, this squirrel had ducked out into the road and I hadn't swerved. And Daisy, my wife, loves all animals. and we can have a joke and stuff like that about this, and we do. And she was like, what are you doing? Why don't you swerve? I didn't hit the squirrel. The squirrel just ran off the thing. And I was like, well, I heard you're not meant to swerve because that causes more danger. If you swerve, you're meant to just go.

17:10That was the catalyst to then just this small argument and how I'd been feeling leading into that. It just then exploded into a massive row. I then lost control. We get back into the house and I completely lose the plot. My anger, my aggression. She's seven months pregnant at the time as well. And I'm turning the house over, punching the walls, punching the doors in, shouting and screaming. And then I just left. I just left her. I said, that's it. I'm gone. There's nothing to do with it. I just needed, I was gone. That's it. I left her. And that image of her being on the floor, crying her eyes out, seven months pregnant, that's burnt into my memory of the biggest, like my most ashamed I've been.

18:12and that was like a big crescendo of what I'd been building, of how I'd been feeling, trying to put it to one side and I'll be all right with that side and then the constant thoughts of not wanting to be here anymore, everyone would be better off without me actually if I wasn't here and then leave it and then it just dawned on me, what the fuck am I doing here? What am I doing? Like, this is all, like, get back there. You know, from there it was like, we've got to go get help. You need help. I can't help you for what you need. I'll be here to support you and that, but you need to go get help. And that was that moment.

18:56And from then it was all like a discovery almost for me to go and talk to this stranger, this psychiatrist, and then delve into what was going on. that it was rugby related, but it wasn't wholly rugby related and it was all sorts and it sort of got me in a better position to then understand. And then I'm still on that. I don't like journey. It's not a journey. I'm still on that learning every day, every week of triggers, of different tools, different ways to try and cope with different situations, with different people. with different emotions. But I'm in a far better place than I was back then.

19:46We'd love to talk about the tools that you, I know you're particularly interested in, the tools that you've employed to calm yourself down and to keep your mental health in a good place. But I just want to talk before we get there about the therapy because there are lots of people that get to the point that you got to where it comes to a crescendo. What they don't then do is take the next step. There are also lots of people who are maybe hearing that and going, well, I don't need therapy because I haven't reached the crescendo where I'm smashing the house down and driving off, contemplating taking my own life or whatever.

20:17Therefore, I don't need therapy. But the truth is that these things are on such a sliding scale. And if anyone is contemplating therapy, what would you tell them about that first meeting where you went in and you often get that first question, which still gets me sometimes, which is, why are you here? Do you remember that moment? Yeah. No, I did. It took me a while to actually get out of the car. And, I don't know, I don't want to just have this stranger invade my mind out of fear of what's going to come out. Like we spoke, like you mentioned earlier, you know. What are they going to judge me for?

20:56Yeah, what are they going to judge me for? And then you go, and once you muster up the courage to actually get out there, get in there and they ask for it. and then it felt like a physical weight actually dropped when I'm sitting there talking to this psychiatrist and asking these questions and him knowing what questions to ask, I just opened up because then for me it became so easy because he was a stranger. He was a professional stranger but he was a stranger and I felt like he's doing this because it's his job and I'm not burdening him, which was a lot of the issue with friends and family. It's like they've got a lot going on as it is.

21:40And also back to the point of, well, what have you got to moan about, mate? Do you know what I mean? We're struggling to pay the mortgage this month and you're sitting here crying about feeling low. That was what I had in my head. So then to have someone like that, a stranger, to just open up to and not have that judgment and then have some answers for me and then guide me in a way to then get more answers to explore different things because he said he could only take me a certain level in terms of the actual clinical diagnosis and stuff like that to then go and actually you need, let's work out if you need CAT or CBT or that side of it and it was a massive relief, a massive thing and it's a little bit like crying.

22:27You know when you cry, you're like oh I'm miserable in it or I'm really upset in it but whenever you cry the feeling you actually have after you're like wow this is great I feel great do you like me? Yeah yeah Surely there's some sort of physical I don't know the physics but there must be something that goes around it so that half makes me tempt tempt me to just cry all the time because then you know you're going to feel good after it Yeah It's never a bad thing to ever cry No it's great Yeah We were lucky enough to speak to Gabor Mate the doctor who deals in trauma specialists. Yeah, amazing.

23:01And one of the things he speaks about is, don't look at the behaviour, look at the wound. So what was it when you went to see this psychiatrist that rather than somebody judging the behaviour of what you've done on a field or at home, what was it that he got beyond to understand what was causing it? I won't go into that. Okay. yeah I won't go into that although I appreciate it might be useful or helpful but there's certain things that I'm still trying to get my head round so yeah I wouldn't be able to do that but it made sense oh it makes total sense and then still back to your point on therapy being well i'm not feeling down i'm not feeling low i'm not feeling suicidal i'm not feeling like i've lost someone or grief or anything like that i'm feeling great so that's not what it's like i still say that to my therapist now i'm like well i actually feel all right you know maybe we won't do this with i'm feeling good she's like that's almost the perfect time to do it yeah because you're in a good spot where you can actually then take the next step of it as opposed to waiting for it.

24:25I'm sorry I can't delve into that a little bit more. No, no, it's personal though. Yeah, it is personal, but I'd like to help. Because I still have a lot to deal with and get my head around with it. Yeah, no one... Did it make sense though? Because that was the interesting thing that I found was that I hadn't linked the two things together. And it's amazing how... Did you then think to yourself, how did I not think this was that? Or did you know all along really what was causing it? I think I might have known all along, but I didn't want to admit it or accept that because then it would be real.

25:05That's how I felt. It would become real. But it makes sense. You know, a weird eureka moment that you go, oh, yeah, yeah, oh. Do you know that sort of feeling? and I get it. I'm interested as well in how it was received in a professional context. And the only reason I mention this, Joe, is that I worked for a long time in rugby league and there was a guy who, your story reminds me of him. And when you said, I even heard the same language used by the coaches, I thought, he's bipolar. He's on a bad day today. And unfortunately for him, there was like a real lack of understanding within the dressing room about the issues he was going through that still sort of haunts me and I'm interested in how it was taken back in the dressing room.

25:59Yeah, that was a big worry of mine with that happening and then from the period of it happening, growing, learning, understanding a bit more to then going, actually saying it publicly, you know coming out with what had gone on and how I was feeling there was that panic of like oh god what are the boys going to think you know I play a sport that's you're meant to be this alpha macho physical confrontational in your face and now you're talking about crying on your way to work not knowing why you're upset and showing this weakness thing I was like oh god they're just going to think of a soft cock and because there's no you can't afford to have that side of things on the field there's no backwards step you can't have that that's not the point of the game you know you have to be there so then that always traditionally has always been the same off the field the whole environment the macho thing you couldn't ever possibly talk about your mental health or anything that's going on like that.

27:15So I was panicking about that. And I remember speaking to Daisy the night, but we made this documentary around mental health and what I'd gone through, but also then some of the bits and bobs that I'd tried out to see if that works for me. And that was due to come out the following morning. And I was like, I'm not sure. I think I'm going to text Gray and all the people that are involved in that project and just get it can. She's like, what are you on about? I was like, no, I don't want the boys to, no, I don't want it to be out there. I don't want it for them to judge me and things like that. And she said, don't be silly, because that was the whole point of you doing this was if there was someone else out there in your situation feeling the way you feel, realising you're not alone, it is more common than you think, and actually trying to help them to make that first step of going to get help that's the point of what you're doing it and then it came out and the following day I got a message from a teammate not overly close with him family man loving life wouldn't have ever dreamt anything was going on with him and he said his wife had sent him the video sent him the film and it resonated with him and it helped him so much he's now going to go get help.

28:40And I was like, ah, makes sense now. And also, for me, it was like, oh, brilliant, there's someone else. And there's more, you know, there's more than you think there is. And it was, the boys were unbelievably supportive. There was a lot of confusion as well around, oh, we didn't realise anything was going on, mate, we just thought you were a bit up and down or a bit moody all the time or a bit, you know, like that. and they were like, we wish you'd have said something earlier, we'd have helped you out. And that, for me, was then like, you dream up all this shit of how it's going to be, and it's never as bad as you think it's going to be, but you always dream it up, and yeah, the boys are unbelievable.

29:25And it was, there's been a big shift, particularly in rugby, a lot in sport, particularly in rugby, because of that macho side of it all. Yes, you need to be like that on the field, but you can be whatever you want to be, and whatever you're going for, like, everyone's in it together. We're here for you. So there's been a big shift in it. It's just how do you shift it from talking about it so people can resonate and, you know, to actually what are the things that can help? What are the right questions to ask? Like, what are the signs to look out for in your teammates? You know, I think that's the next step for rugby particularly that we start having more education around what we can do to actually help it as opposed to just asking the question twice, how are you, how are you?

30:15Do you know what I mean? Actually looking for signs of it because not everyone's going to open up at first. So what steps do you think we can take from your experience? Well, definitely learning signs of people that are withdrawing, that aren't acting their usual self and checking in on them regularly. We've got one now, you know, mental health trained officer welfare. Right. To actually keep an eye on it more. And the more you talk about it and the more the casual conversation you have, you're not afraid to actually sit there and go, oh, I'm really struggling actually. It's like, that's the side of it.

30:55But I can't sit here as a trained professional in it all to give those answers. I can only go with how I feel with stuff and what I feel works with certain people and trying to read people a bit better. You're not going to get it right all the time, but trying to read that. I'd love to know some of the techniques that have worked for you so that when you now get that sense, what do you go and do? Well, I started a new therapy called... Here we go. That's how much attention I've paid to it. I want to say EDM. Or the eye movement. It's the eye movement and the tapping. Yeah, yeah. And when it was first suggested to me, as maybe we should try this out, I just got the giggles.

31:41I went, are you taking a piss? You can see that though, can't you? I went, are you taking a piss? You want me to sit in a room and you just want me to move my eyes, and that's going to help me. And they're like, right, okay, now you've gone back to your old stubborn shield up thingy. And I was like, yeah, no, you're right. just remember what it felt like when you did let the guards down and you did try seabobbing and you did try going to sing with a choir and all that, just drop those guards and then let's have that with this one. And I was like, right, okay, fine. And it took a while to get to the first session to get there.

32:17And then after, it's been brilliant. It's been like, it's made a massive difference on some of the things, Some of the things, some of the traumas that have happened, I now feel less dirty, less ashamed, less when they pop into my head, it doesn't come over me like it used to. So just for context, shall we, for anyone listening that doesn't understand it, So when they do the eye movement, they take you to a traumatic moment of your life. Yeah, so the process is you sit there, you're talking to your therapist about just normal everyday scheduling, whatever, that lot. Then they'll ask you to then start blinking or whether it's the tapping and take yourself to whatever the traumatic memory that you're thinking of or whatever that you want to try and adjust.

33:22your brain's malleable it can be changed all this this is this is mental and they're like literally it is mental mate we are going to sort this there's a guy called the guy that pioneered it is a psychiatrist called Gordon Turnbull right and so he's written really extensively on this how we often get trapped in that loop and we can't escape that moment in our heads and then you always associate that with a fit like and that that feeling then it's always go to so it's trying to change that and after the first couple of sessions of doing it, I was reluctant to say, oh my God, I feel a lot better.

34:00Because then you're asked to think about the memory and how it then makes you feel and you score it and you give it, well, actually I feel all right, as opposed to that's how that used to make me feel. Now I'm full of anger and rage and I just want to hit out. and then it goes, oh, now you've got a bit more of an understanding and a bit more of a technique for that. So that's what I'm currently going through at the minute for that one. But even still, my therapist will go, you've got the name wrong. You said EDM. That's electric dance music, mate. We're not sitting there just blaring at you. What is RE or is it EDRM?

34:42EDRM. EDRM, that's it. Yeah. So, yeah, that's what I'm finding useful at the minute. And also, I used to really struggle, I still struggle with the balance, work-life balance and all that. When that's out of kilter and I'm here, there and everywhere, I just panic. I want to shut off everything. If I've got a big week lined up, I get nervous before. I've got training, I've got training, I've got to do a podcast, I've got to do this and then we've got a meeting there and then we've got a meeting there and I've got to take the kids to football. I've got to think of life. So if I don't plan it right, if I don't plan appropriately, then I start retracting, I start panicking, and at home it'll be that behaviour again of becoming distant, not really being present with the family, being a bit more short-fused with the wife and the kids.

35:41So now I know that I'm in my best place when I'm getting the balance right, and I've got that, and I've got a little bit more control and a bit more space. Can I talk about the behaviours? Because you're recognising the behaviours of when you're in a stress state or a threat state, so you withdraw. But when I look over your career, you know, like, you've developed a reputation of being the joker, the loud one, the guy that the party starts when Joe comes in. Was that a coping strategy of dealing with going into those environments as well? Yeah, I think that side of it was a feeling of how the hell am I here?

36:18Yeah. How have I managed to do this? Have I blagged my way to this bit? A bit like an imposter, or like how I'm, even now I'm like, how the hell am I sitting here talking to you lot? And also my background being not from the regular rugby archetype. Is that even the word? Yeah, yeah. Oh, thank you. You're not in public school, you didn't go for the university. Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's just I hadn't come from the usual background. So I was surrounded, particularly at a club like Harlequin's, you know, the London sort of posh boys that have been renowned. I was like, oh, God, I'm a little bit out of place here.

36:57You know, how do I... And it's the same as whether you go to school or a new environment, you've got to try and find where you fit in. And I was like, where do I fit in? I was like, there's not really anywhere to fit in here now, so maybe I'll go the extreme of not fitting in. Going the opposite, you know, I'm in control of two fingers to the man and all this, like, let's have the Moawks, let's have the attention, let's all that side of it and really sort of amp it up with that. I used to be like that, or I still can be like that. And that was the rugby persona, but then I'd go home and then I'd be like, right, I'm just happy sitting in front of the TV.

37:38I don't want to do any of that sort of stuff. So I guess maybe that was a coping strategy that I had or attempted it. Also probably because I was an attention seeker and wanted all the cameras on me. Right. You and him both. Yeah. I do want to talk about your rugby career and particularly about the longevity, but before we get onto that, just how it feels now to have these sorts of conversations. I often have this fear when I have this conversation. There's a voice in my head going, I hope we're not triggering stuff by talking like this. I hope that you're thinking, how wonderful that I can actually talk with this much freedom and this much confidence about the journey I've been on, the journey that I'm still going on, even though you don't call it a journey.

38:25What else would you call it? I don't know why I don't like it. Because it's too ex-factory, isn't it? The path that you're on. How is it talking like this now? I feel, I still struggle to talk about that particular moment because it does, it brings on that shame of hurting someone that I love so dearly and being like that because of what I did, how I behaved. But I recognise now how powerful it can be to talk like that because of the amount of support and the amount of people that have reached out that you then go, and you want to try and help them all, but I also can't, I haven't got the answer for anything.

39:09When everyone says, oh, what bit of advice would you, I was like, well, definitely the wrong person to be asking for advice because also the advice that worked for me doesn't necessarily work for everyone else. Yeah, I find it easier to talk about. In fact, I think it's important that we do talk like that. I had someone on my podcast the other week and he was talking about his career and then the second half of it, he was talking about a lot of his struggles and he actually broke down in the studio there and what he was going through there and how... But I was also really proud that we'd been able to create an environment and make it comfortable enough for him to be able to express that and be like that.

39:59And it was like, mate, honestly, how you've just spoken, how you've just opened up, I know because I've been through it myself and had the feedback from it. That's going to be so powerful when people watch that or see that. And it's like, why not? It's the same as you feel. We're happy to take the piss and say, come on, mate, you've put on a bit of weight, haven't you? We're happy to talk about our physical health and, oh, okay, we've got different ways that we can improve our physical health. Let's go running. Let's do the weights. Let's sort out our diet and all that. So we've got all those tools.

40:35But your mental health is the same. It has to be the same as your physical health. You know, we just think it's something. Do you know what I mean? Because you can't see it or you can't physically measure it all. You go, oh, well, we can't really do it. You know what, it's the same. Because we are still attached shame to mental struggles. We attach no shame to not being able to run a mile. We just assume that that's how our bodies are at the moment. You know, we can know we can improve that. But it's very interesting, isn't it, that we still put so much sway around physical health. And there are hundreds of podcasts about it and all these supplements you can take and energy drinks you can have and all the other things.

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43:26Before we move on to rugby, we do have to talk about Daisy. Your face lights up when you talk about her. It's such a nice part of the conversation because I remember there are some things I don't want to talk about, but I remember telling my wife something when I was right in the depths. And I'm sure the way that you're sitting there now, you can remember a moment with your wife where it's like, that is where true love comes into play here, isn't it? my wife is everything to me she's wonderful the stuff that she's experienced in her life and the strength she's then shown to come through that and be the rock that me and the kids rely on so often is just I could sit here and eulogise about all the things she'd turn around and go fuck's sake why are you talking about can you stop talking about i said would you prefer it if i just send in videos of you snoring on my arm instead and she said no just don't fucking talk about me at all i was well i can't help but talk about you mate you've been the biggest influence on my life um how did you guys meet we went to school together right and yeah we went to school together we actually went out when we were like 13 14 young love or so i thought you know she dumped me after a month maybe it was the really crap cd or banana i think i got her a banana yeah the old romantic yeah but we're all part of the same friend circle and then i went off to i moved out at 16 up to london to pursue rugby um but we sort of all kept in contact and i'd come down and we'd see each other weekends and all that and then yeah and then we just ended up falling back in love but I love her to pieces and if it wasn't for her uh I don't say it lightly I probably wouldn't be sitting here now not that I'd just be around the coffee shop or anything I just I don't think I'd be here now I want to talk rugby but I also want to talk longevity in rugby?

45:37Like, to be going as long as you have is incredible. And I know that you're quite a fan of finding fads and various, like, cool things to try and keep the longevity going, be playing as long as possible, stay as young as possible. I'd love to know the things that you've tried. I love all this sort of, like, experimentation. But also the things that have worked. Like, what have you found actually works really well for you? The biggest thing for longevity is to gather as much blackmail material against your coaches as you can and then they haven't got a choice but to keep you on board so there's a secret to Joe Marler's career that is the secret that can be the thumbnail apart from that I don't like when you said I do enjoy fad I don't enjoy fad but particularly in the latter part of my career I'm starting to like I need to look after myself more when you're young and you're dumb and you're full of it, you don't need a warm-up, you're just buzzing all the time, you just crack on.

46:42Luckily for me, I've rarely been injured and it was just, you know, away you go. But then you sort of hit the 28 mark in rugby and then you go, oh, I start to feel a little bit more now. The Sunday-Monday mornings turn into Sunday-Monday-Tuesdays and then at a push we'll get a session out on the Wednesday. And then it gets even harder, up above 30 and then you hit 34 and you're like, oh my God, what am I doing? I can't even peel myself off the bed after this now. So trying to find different ways to keep on top of the, you know, the temple that is my melted wheelie bin. Melted wheelie bin.

47:25You know, I've got a sauna at home now. I've got my ice tub. Investing in that, investing in looking, after yourself in the recovery process so you can actually do it. How often do you use them? And do you go from one to the other? Daily. Daily. In and out. One on the other. In and out. And then mixing up with some sea bobbing. And it's usually sea, it's meant to be sea swimming, but I can't swim. So it's only ever sea bobbing because we only ever go out. Yeah, just so that whenever I go with my brother-in-law, he's like, please can we not go too deep because I don't think I can rescue you if you're drowning.

48:01So what do you mean? And he said, you're just, you're a bit heavy, mate. I said, what would happen if I did start drowning? They said, I'd probably have to leave you. I was like, right. Save yourself. Cool. Thanks for that. And what does that do for you? The bobbin's slightly different to just the ice plunge that I use at home. The bobbin's actually, it started a couple of years back where we'd go out on a Sunday morning first thing and it was nice to just get round a group of boys all just talking about the week, how they're feeling, and having that as a platform to open up and just check in with everyone.

48:36And also, I'd be in there, and I never thought I'd say, you know, you're such a hippie. What are you coming out with this next sentence for? You're just such wishy-washy stuff. But then I'd be in there. It'd be freezing cold, loving it. So you get that actual buzz and thing when you come out. But you're in there, but you look out at the sea and you just feel really insignificant. in a good way because you go I've got all of this going on in my head that I think are massive issues that I'm struggling to control but you look out at this vastness of the sea and you go it's massive and I'm so insignificant in this world and then if I'm insignificant then what are the these are even more insignificant and then it's just like a reset button of you get out and you feel great and you get to go and attack the weak like you do.

49:31So that's more of a mental process as to a mental refresh as opposed to a physical. You know what that reminds us of when we interviewed Tim Peake, the astronaut? He was saying that there's a condition known that astronauts go through when you see the world from outside orbit. Yeah. Your sense of perspective is altered forever that you can never take things seriously and you're describing something similar. Yeah. I love how you've compared me to Tim Peake going out and looking at the entire world, whereas I'm just bobbing up and down an Eastbourne sewage-filled sea. It's still the same for all of us, because we're not all going to go into space, but we can all get the same effects that you've just described.

50:14And you spoke about this idea of a sense of purpose, which is for Daisy and the kids and being around for them. I'm interested in not only the physical effects of playing at 34 plus now, but also the debate that goes on in rugby about CTE and the head injuries and the risks that come with that. How have you reconciled those two things of wanting to be the best dad and partner you can with doing a sport that is inherently dangerous? Yeah, I think early on in parenthood, I was like, well, I'm still just enjoying playing rugby. Yeah, it's dangerous and stuff like that, but it won't happen to me. I'll be absolutely fine.

50:55And then you see players that you've played against and teammates having to retire from neck injuries or there was a guy who played for Northampton. He had to retire after damaging nerves in his shoulder and he lost the use of his right arm for the rest of his life. And they're the ones that hit home and you go, oh my God, actually this. And that's just from an innocuous tackle. It just happened. And there's been a couple of moments I've been knocked out a fair few times. There was one particular concussion where Billy Vanapola, huge, giant of a man, I've attempted to tackle him, but instead of tackling properly, I've ended up tackling his hip with my head and just being put out cold.

51:41Then waking up in the physio room for the kit man to come in and go, all right, mate, how you doing? I was like, yeah, I think I'm all right. Yeah, good. He was like, is Doris here? He was what he'd called days old. He was like, oh, yeah, I think so. Yeah, no, I think she's here. He said, oh, she brought the kids up. And I went, what? And he went, has she brought the kids with her? I went, kids? and he went yeah the two kids that you've got and then I was like I've got kids it was that moment I was like oh my god I'd forgotten I had kids now I know there can be moments where you go I wish I could forget I've got kids when they're driving you crazy and up the wall and then I was just in floods of tears it was like the birth of my kids all over again I was like oh this is great but they're scary moments and you go yeah but that's kind of what I've signed up for.

52:34I know that this sport is dangerous. That's part of the appeal. It's a big part of the appeal. The physical nature of it is our biggest selling point as a sport. And with the CTE and the concussion, I'm aware of what's going on and there's far more education around it now. But I'm probably the generation that has been... it's probably too, like, if I've got something wrong with me regarding concussions or further down the line, I've probably, the damage has already been done. Right. And I'm a little bit like, put my head in the sand for it. And I'm also of the opinion of, well, it's a dangerous sport.

53:16I knew that coming into it. That's my responsibility to accept that. Do you ever think about it? I think about it more now with the kids and going, every time I do get an injury, you know, I'm just coming back from a foot injury, of I want to have the ability to play football with my boy who's obsessed with football. I want to be able to practice the monkey bars with my daughter because she's getting ready for gymnastics. I want to do that. So it is a constant fight of at any moment you take to the field or take your training pitch, that you can put yourself in a position where you can't do those things.

53:59And it is very selfish. But I guess the drive, the personal drive, the personal love for that sport sort of outweighs that feeling I have. But it's sort of getting a little bit more like that the closer I get to it and the more that I am feeling it. And now that you've made me discuss it, I'm now going to probably leave the room and give the club a call and say right that's it the boys have told me to sack it off because I need to be able to climb the monkey bars and we'll see how that one goes down with them Well we spoke to Ossie Unamayora the American football player around that because the research in the NFL is obviously a lot higher and he concluded he said well the quality of the life I have now is due to the fact that I was willing to do that so he saw it as just a price that he was willing to pay for it.

54:55So there's no judgment attached, it's just whether we're actually aware of the cost, which is what we're doing, and I think that's what you've... Yeah, and I think even with all the information there is now around the dangers of it, particularly with CTE, and look, I'm not educated enough or from a position to be able to give a proper answer on it, it's the personal view of even if I had all that information back at the start, I'd still make the same choice because I love the sport. And similar to the American football player, it's what it's given me financially, purposefully, and the ability to then...

55:40There's not many other people, friends and family, as a 34-year-old, that can afford the life we lead. I mean, we're not paid. I would sit here and go, we should be paid millions more. We should be here. I'm not sitting here, poor me and all that. We're paid very well for what we do and it enables us to have a life that we have and it enables us to have four kids and therefore it's all taken out every month because they just bleed me dry. So I wouldn't change it, no. I'd still make the same choice and go that because like you said, it's the price that you pay or potentially pay. I want to talk about culture.

56:16Oh. I would love to talk about the great cultures you've played in. But I'm also interested in the not-so-great cultures you've played in and why you thought they weren't such great cultures. And again, you know, almost everyone that listens to this either runs a business, works in a business, is a parent, is a colleague. We're all having to deal with all kinds of different cultures. And you've seen many of them. I find it hard talking about cultures because usually I'll be influencing it one way or the other, whether it's bringing it down or contributing it. You know, someone told me, why don't you use your powers for good more than evil?

56:51That's always been said to me. And I'm like, oh, okay. One of the best coaches I've been part of is at Harlequins where we actually ended up losing our head coach. He was sacked six months, halfway through the season.

57:09And the coaches that were left were still sort of young in their journeys. as coaches, so still pretty fresh, learning on the job sort of. And the senior players in that group were like, oh God, hang on, what's going to happen now? It sort of elevated the group, it accelerated them to go, we've got to take charge, we've got to take more ownership here. Yeah, it accelerated the leadership. You'd love to be there in conjunction with coaching staff and management staff that you get a player-led environment that's also guided by, that allows that player, but you've got direction from the head coach and the manager, but it's led, so injected.

57:54But this had swayed completely the other way, where it was totally player-led, and the coaches, the best thing they did was sort of facilitate that a little bit, because they were still all getting to grips with the chaos that was losing their coach and all that. And then we ended up winning the premiership from the playoff position of fourth in the semi-final, going 28-0 down at half-time, to then coming back playing 105 minutes and beating Bristol in that game, to then go into the final and play Exeter and win 40 points to 38 or whatever, the highest scoring thing. And that culture was brilliant, like amazing, because the players almost were like, oh, not we could do what we want, but we were in control.

58:43It was player-led, beyond belief, and we got to dictate sort of what we wanted to do in training and even if this was suggested for training, it was kind of turned into actually we want to make it more attack-based and you can tell because even now we're dealing with the after-effects of really lacking in defence and all that. But then it got to the point where it was two-player-led. We were struggling with direction because you get all the players maybe wanting to do this, doing all different voices, different things. And then we needed, we were yearning for someone to actually get a hold of us all and give us a bit more direction whilst still thinking.

59:24And so it then turned to being great to then go, oh God, this is spread out and we need that sort of... So the best environment, that was a great environment to be a part of, but there was no longevity to it because it couldn't carry on like that. but the one that is fresh in my mind as well is the one under Steve you've had Steve on here before Steve Balfwick because he has that vision he has that drive he has where he wants to take the team but it's not my way or the highway it's where do you guys want to take the team what do you want to do how do you want to attack how do you want to defend so he enables that player led environment to drive the standards, drive it there, so then you get a better buy-in from the group while still having this direction and all that.

1:00:15And how does that compare to under Eddie Jones? I loved Eddie. I got on really well with Eddie. He was very supportive during those years that we spoke about earlier. And again, came on here and gave us a brewery. Was he as well? Yeah. Mate! Surely he threw a few fucks in there as well. Oh, he was good, was he? No, he did. Yeah, he did as well. Fuck, fuck, mate. He was great coming in, taking over the England team in 2016 from the low point that we'd been at, bombing out of a home World Cup. To then come in, instil this confidence, this belligerence, which is sort of his character, into the team was great.

1:00:56And then we went on to win a first Grand Slam in 13 years and then get into the World Cup final and then bottling it. But that four-year period was unbelievable. Some of the best rugby moments we've had. But it was a really challenging environment. And it's important to have an environment that is challenging, where you feel confident enough to challenge each other in the right way. But at times that environment was probably unhealthy, too authoritative in the way of, too directive, too, you know, when I left this environment and came back in, I had a bit of freedom in the sense of, like, I've come back in because I want to be here and I'm confident in who I am, what I do.

1:01:48And if you don't like it, I feel okay with you not picking me. I feel okay with you just sacking me off. I can walk away from it and still be all right. So that gave me a bit of freedom to sort of speak my mind more and, you know, encourage others. But boys would be there sitting before a training session, like shaking as if the sort of symptoms they'd have before a game, the nerves and the sickness in their stomachs. And I'm like, what's the matter with you lot? They're like, mate, this Test Match Tuesday, it's worse than playing a game because we were flogged and we were pushed to the limits, particularly in that 2018 year.

1:02:27and I'm sitting there lads look this isn't this isn't good you shouldn't be feeling like this for a training session like you can semi-understand this for a game and the enormity of games it can be this shouldn't be constant because God knows what this is actually could you go and speak to Eddie about that and just say look this is too much I could say the odd thing but Eddie was this is the plan this is why I'm doing it if you don't like it I'll just get the next one in and that's where it was so there's a contrast I'd be interested in exploring this with you Joe like we were lucky enough to sit down with Sia Khaleesi and Sia told us a lovely story of the night before that 2019 World Cup final yep he said his wife had phoned him up and said what are you thinking about and he'd said oh the game tomorrow the line out plans and he said what are you worried about that for you've spent the last six weeks doing that he said well what should I think about it instead and she said well tomorrow you're going to be a world champion so why don't you write down a list of all the things you want to achieve as a world champion and so he said he'd made a list of like speaking out about gender based violence and opening up food banks and he said that that sense of purpose of we're doing this for a bigger thing than just winning a World Cup final was a really fundamental part of that sort of that powerful spirit that the Springboks have got and when we told Eddie that he was like fuck we weren't talking about that and I'm interested in you've experienced it as you said like this player this sense of purpose that you had at Harlequin a little bit it sounds under Steve there's also there's always tends to be in successful teams there always seems to be some sort of outside influence or emotional driver that isn't necessarily just everyone in the league in whatever sport you're in, everyone wants to win.

1:04:24Everyone wants, at the start of the year, always wants to win the Premiership at the end of it. Everyone's going to say that. There's no one sitting there going, oh, I don't want to win it this year, do you know what I'm saying? Everyone wants to win. But the teams that often win have more than that. So Northampton last year, they had two or three huge leaders in their team. It was their last year, and that was that they wanted to give them big centres. So Courtney Laws, he was a big driver. He was the captain. he's got these young, exciting players all around him. They're playing a great brand of rugby.

1:04:57But there was loads of teams doing that, but they didn't have that extra emotional driver with it. You go back to our one in 2021, it was chaos, mainly player-led. So that was another external factor to then drive on. I then go back to what you just spoke about, the South African team. they wanted to win the World Cup of course but another big driver was actually uniting their country and stuff like that so they're always for teams that go on and achieve there's always something added whether it's externally or something else that's not specifically that sport or something that you get after to then bring the team closer together and go that extra mile when you're So if there's coaches listening to this or leaders of teams that are going yeah how do you generate it without it appearing to be a gimmick or the kind of thing that turns people off rather than turns them on that's so hard it's so hard to generate it yeah authentically because like I said you think of a lot of successful teams it hasn't been because someone's come in forced it upon it it happens organically like the class of 92 you know well they're all together that was them growing up to them to do it the same with saracens their period they had this core group of academy players that owen farrell the vunapolas jackson ray like jamie george all together as the core that then followed through as and that was their that was their bigger driver yeah all these close mates we had it similar back in 2012 when we won it there was a a big core of that group that had grown up together through the academy and been through all sorts on and off the field.

1:06:47I think it's really hard to generate that feeling by bringing something in that's not authentic or naturally comes with it. I suppose you just need to make the most of it when it's there. You make the most of it, you capsize it, and most teams do that and go, right, we've got this core group. That class in Saracens, they were driven by a teammate, Henry Fraser. his brother his brother was a teammate of theirs and that happened to Henry he had an accident and ended up being in a wheelchair and he's doing amazing things now but that was a big you know they became closer and tighter a tighter unit and that was sort of their inspiration to kick on with that because one of my questions before we wrap up was what do you think makes the best of the best and it sounds like you're saying it's not about the physical abilities that a team has it's about the emotional connection or the emotional driver that a team has yeah the teams i've been a part of that have been successful and there's been few and far between but it is the emotional bit that you get right that nails it and drives because usually at the top with the best in the league everyone's pretty much on the same level everyone's on the same level physically everyone tends to have the same tactics everyone tends to have the same style of play that they're doing it's right it's that emotional connection how tight the group how hard they're willing to work for each other that isn't just i want to work hard for you because it's my job it's i want to work hard with you because we've been through this and that outside of the game so that is the really crap advice i would give to any coach listening to Great advice.

1:08:32Right, we've got some quickfire questions to wrap up with. We have.

1:08:39Now, this isn't about the best players you've worked with. This is about the players that you believe have shown the best behaviours. If I was to say to you, the top three world-class players in terms of their behaviours, oh, who would you want to point out? Like the guys that might not have been the best rugby players, but they brought something. Oh, not the best rugby player. Well, the biggest, the first go-to would be Owen Farrell. That's not that he wasn't the best rugby player, he's a brilliant rugby player, but the way he drove standards, still drives standards, I presume he's driving standards over in France, but he was brilliant.

1:09:12And how would he do that? Usually with his voice. Right. Loudly. Very loudly, in your ear. I don't understand what happened with it. Just very briefly, that criticism that came his way, that felt from the outside like he almost basically just left the country because of ridiculous criticism that was unwarranted and unfair. Have you spoke with him about that period of leaving England and the country as well as the national team? Yeah, I spoke with him about that period and that's up to him to come out and say what he thinks. But I know that it's a shame that he's over in France. I'm happy for him.

1:09:48I'm happy for him and his family is over there. It's just a shame that one of the biggest English rugby players is now applying his trade in France as opposed to week in, week out over here because he's brilliant to watch. Whether you love him or hate him, you still want to watch him. And I hope people learn the lesson as well from that period. Well, yeah, from that period, it was sort of... It was unnecessary for me. But then that's social media, media down to a T, isn't it? Everyone's got a voice and whoever shouts loudest gets heard. Sorry, just go on. He just went with quick fire and then I've just brought it out again.

1:10:28Again, I think it's a big lesson for people of how he would give you feedback without touching relationships or upsetting you. What was it he did that was so exceptional of driving standards? He had an ability to be able to drive standards and maybe talk to... Not everyone appreciated being barked and shouted at, making a mistake or not doing something right. And so he then developed, he grew in terms of learning the different ways of talking to different characters. But he had the ability to do that because he himself was setting the standard physically. He was always in the right place or always, do you know what I mean?

1:11:08Yeah, yeah. So you have the capabilities of going, come on, mate, pull your finger out a bit like that and he was brilliant just ultimate professional with it Johnny May unbelievable you want to talk about fads or a whole episode on recovery and longevity you talk to Johnny May he's got this constant loop stretching at 7.30 every night and all that he's unbelievable professional and maximised his potential and did amazing things also you'd love to get him on it because he is a bit fruity. Excellent. And then it would be Chris Robshaw. England player, England player, England player. He wasn't naturally the most skilful or most naturally blessed rugby player, but his engine and his work rate and his belligerence to just keep going, keep going, keep going.

1:12:11And he was that. You often talk about hard work beats talent and all that. He was just unbelievable and he just kept working, kept working. Brilliant. So they're your three. Yeah, sorry. That's very good. What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given and why? The best advice is probably the easiest advice from an old teammate of mine, which is Olly Cohn. He turned around and just said, stop being a knob. And I know that sounds basic, but when your teammate that you respect and love and they're the people turning around to you and going, enough's enough, mate, you're a knob now, then you go, right, I'm going to work that one out.

1:12:51What should be your strength? What's your greatest weakness? Strength? I think perspective, being able to put perspective on things and trying to help others understand that when we're stuck in this rugby bubble that you think is the be all and end all, but actually imparting a bit of perspective on it and trying to give them a bit, to free them up a bit more and just enjoy it for what it is and remember that. Biggest weakness, it's a big list. I'm slightly better at it now, but the ability to receive feedback for too long, I let my ego get in the way of, don't talk to me like that or don't give me that feedback.

1:13:35Like, you know, for too long I was like that. And it's only recently I start trying to drop that and understand that actually any feedback's good. You know, you learn from that. That's how you grow. That's how you learn. So, yeah, I'm still working on that one. If you could go back to one moment of your life, what would it be and why? I'd probably go back to that moment in 2018.

1:14:02and I'd probably hide in the bushes and stop the squirrel from running out that started it. No, you wouldn't because it led. But then you go, no, I'd have had to let the squirrel go because that's then what it... Otherwise it would have been another six months to think. So you can go back and visit moments in your life, but I wouldn't... You can't have the regrets because... The only regret I have is wearing a phlegm green t-shirt to my wedding. That is a regret. That's awful. But in terms of everything else, it's like they're all moments that you had to do in order to learn from, in order to still keep learning.

1:14:42And the final question, your one golden rule for living a high-performance life? Full circle from what we spoke about at the start is the golden rule for high-performance is consistency. I've had moments where I feel like I've performed well and usually that's because I've been consistent with getting the balance of work and life right consistent with my diet, consistent with training consistent with the emotional energy and all that lot and they've been thinking but it's so hard to do it's so hard to keep that consistency

1:15:24when you've got so much else going on in your life with your family and your pride and all that side of it. So if you want to be a high performer, you need to strive for that consistency so that you get better performances more regularly. And that's the only thing I can come up with at the end of this. I can't believe what you two have done to me.

1:15:48Damien, Jake. Well that was a really moving conversation. That's one of my favourite conversations we've had in a long time. I felt Joe was really present. I don't think he came in with any kind of preconceived ideas, any answers that he'd rehearsed. I think he came in and just responded in the moment and it felt really, really enjoyable to be a part of it. And I think the fact that he came in right at the start as this warrior of a man, You know, a guy who's really employed in the England rugby team to smash walls down. Do you know what I mean? That's his role. Like, he's a huge guy, bench presses incredible amounts of weight and sits there and goes, I'm nervous.

1:16:29I'm worried. I don't think I'm going to bring anything to the conversation. Like, that vulnerability at the very beginning of our chat, I think, set the tone, really. Yeah, and, you know, like, I was lucky enough to read Joe's book and that bit where he talks about that incident where the squirrel triggered the meltdown, the apocalyptic meltdown with his wife Daisy, was moving in the book. To hear him retell that story was especially so. But I think if there was almost a theme for this conversation, it was like there is strength in vulnerability. And I think the example that he used of going back into the Harlequins dressing room and being embraced for sharing that vulnerability, I think when he spoke about what the special source of all the best teams is that vulnerability, that willingness to be emotional and expose ourselves.

1:17:21I think Joe's almost testament to it. Like he says, he's a man-mountain. Offering people a glimpse into the vulnerability that makes him and makes us all great. And, you know, I still get anxious talking about the things that went on with me in the past because I feel I'm going to be judged, right? Of course, yeah. and he obviously still feels the same as well but I think this is the moment to remind ourselves that we still see mental health challenges as a weakness but people with mental health challenges are the strongest people because they have to do all the things everyone else does whilst feeling and fearing all the stuff in their heads so actually it really is time to stop saying mental health challenges are weak people with mental health challenges are the strongest people on the planet I love that.

1:18:10And he's a reminder of that. Well, I think for people listening to this or wherever they're digesting it from, I think I was in that lucky position there that you were really open and honest and vulnerable when you spoke about the conversation with Harriot, that you'd been sort of bossing up. And I know you've shared that previously. But it was the reaction then for Joe. You gave him permission to open up. And I think there's an important thing here. It's almost like a chain reaction that when somebody's willing to go first and say, this is what I've struggled with, this has been my difficulty, you offer permission and space and freedom for other people to come and do it.

1:18:47And I think that's a powerful testimony that we all need to remember at times. What a guy he is. Yeah, and you as well, Jake. I think you and him there, that was really special and brave and really liberating to hear you both talk so freely. thanks my friend thank you mate

1:19:09well that brings us to the end of today's show we all want to extend a really heartfelt thanks to Joe for joining us but not just for that for also trusting us with that kind of conversation for opening up because we know the value that that will bring to so many people we found it moving we found it enlightening at times it was very entertaining and I hope you did too Joe we wish you all the very best with what comes next and for you listening to this please just leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts if you enjoyed the show because it helps us more than you know we can grow and attract even more incredible names to join us on the show.

1:19:43We're back soon with plenty more from High Performance.

1:20:02Thank you.

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