John Bishop: Opening Up About the Pain Behind My Comedy (E302)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance App. It's not like that. It's like you make one decision and that opens five other decisions and then those decisions are different than if you'd made that decision. The way you were looked at, just the way you felt judged, and I thought, that's not going to happen. That gave me such a fire in my belly. Now that I'm thinking about it, it was my mum. Just the way people looked at your mum. I'm sure you recognize that voice the strong Liverpool accent that so many people associate with having a great time comedian John Bishop who joins us today for a very emotional conversation on high performance my name is Jake Humphrey when we started this show we wanted to talk to the most incredible people on the planet and really learn not just what they've done but how they've done it and what they've learned along the way and this is a real lesson in life from John Bishop today and I'm Damien Hughes I'm an expert in the world of high-performing cultures.

1:30I work with people to help them create environments that help them understand how to get the best out of themselves and other people. And in this episode, I found myself laughing and even tearing up occasionally. John spoke so openly about how comedy had literally saved his life, how he used humour to cope with his son going deaf, and how it's helped save his marriage. He also shared exciting details about his new tour, John Bishop 25, which celebrates his 25 years of stand-up where every ticket is priced at just£25 which is almost like a gift back to his fans during this cost of dynamic pricing and a cost of living crisis.

2:09Expect to be moved in this conversation. Expect to see a side to John Bishop that you have never seen before. I recommend you have the tissues close at hand as we welcome John Bishop to High Performance.

2:25Welcome to High Performance. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. When I looked at the list of people you've had, I think I was the only one I didn't know. It was quite impressive. Is it an over-exaggeration to say that comedy saved your life? On more than one occasion. It's not an over-exaggeration at all. I've made the decision that this is, as I say, the thing I want to do most and certainly for the next five years. and I'm going to be 60 in 2026. And I had a corporate job. And the reason that the significance of that number is everyone would have kicked in, the pension would have kicked in, and your whole career is built to the fact that there's an exit.

3:13And when I turned 60, I've decided that year, so I've got a big tour next year, or an arena tour next year in October 2025. and then after that, I'm going to spend time outside the UK going to Canada, America, Australia, New Zealand. Canada and America, I'm starting off, I'm in clubs and I was talking to my wife about it and I said, you know, the idea of starting off when I worked in the pharmaceutical industry, again, at 60, wouldn't fancy it. I said, the idea in my 60th year of being on a comedy club line-up in Denver on a Thursday night, I said, just floats my boat. I just love the essence of it.

3:56And so the reason when you said about saving your life, I was so close a couple of years ago of just saying, I've had enough. Financially, we're okay. I don't have to do this. I'd finished the tour, I went home, and I'd done a chat, Sean, and I'd just atrophied. I just found my relationship with the world getting smaller and smaller. And it was Melanie that just said, just go and do a gig. Don't do a gig because you're thinking of doing a tour. Just go back and do a gig because you're a miserable get. And honestly, the zest I've got for it now because I'm going to new places like America is exactly the excitement I had when I began.

4:45but people might listen to that story and say okay so comedy makes you happier but that doesn't mean it saved your life when i say saved your life and you say yeah on numerous occasions yeah explain that well was i stood on this edge of a bridge gonna jump off no i wasn't gonna do that uh was i gonna be the person that i that i am sat here before you oh 50 50 it was 50 50 whether i would whether i would be this person you know i i for people don't know my story i started late i started because i'd split up my wife i started because it was miserable i started at a comedy club not expecting anything of it i did that for i didn't i didn't wake up one morning decide to be a comedian and and what happened i i found myself again because the person i'd become when i got married was so driven i was i was driven to do the things that i thought you should do as a as a young father like what make money get on get some security you know i get in the corporate world and work hard and head down and i was your classic I'd be away for three days at a sales conference I'd put my key in the door my wife would be there with three kids under the age of four and I'd like kiss her on the head pat the kids and go upstairs on my mobile phone to the office making phone calls I was that person and I'd lost my sense of silliness that you have to have in stand up comedy right now on a Friday in London I'd have probably been ordering a bottle of Bordow on expenses and thinking I've done well.

6:43And that's not the life that I'm living now.

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8:30when you got into comedy your marriage had broken down right yeah and i know that for you this is a familiar story but i still think for a lot of people and this audience particular they won't necessarily know this like what did a day in the life of you look like around that time when the marriage had broken down and the comedy hadn't yet started and so i got married well let's let's put Let's put a few things in perspective. So I went to a comprehensive school. I was the first one in the family to go to university. I knew I just had to get off the estate, whichever way it was going to be. I always thought, you know, sport might be the roost.

9:10I ended up going to college, getting a degree, got a job as a salesman because I needed a job because I'd been in America coaching football and I'd run up a six and a half thousand dollar phone bill right and the reason I'd done this right is because I was working for a company called North American Soccer Camps and the year before everybody had what was a magic number to make phone calls back to the office and and somebody gave me this magic number this year that I was there and I drove a car across America after I'd finished working there and I drove all the way back to Connecticut from LA to have an interview to have a full-time job in America.

9:54And when I got there, Gary Russell, who was the manager, who owned the place, said, look, yeah, we can do this. We'll organise a green card. You've got an opportunity now to live in America. And I thought, this is great. The only problem I've got is I've met this girl in Manchester, but that's fine, I'll work this out. I said, can I phone my mum and dad? He said, well, it's, you know, obviously, yeah, but it's expensive. I said, it's okay, I've got this magic number. And this is, honest to God, what happened? I sat there and I put the number in in front of him. And he went, he said, can you write that number down?

10:24I said, yes. So I gave it to him. I said, yeah, honestly, smash it. I've been giving it to everyone. He went and got it, came back. It was his credit card. So the people who worked for the company the year before, this is all true on my kid's life, had used his credit card number with his authority to make phone calls for AT &T. I thought it was so mad. I don't know what I thought. So he literally came back in. there was a lad called Paul Lawrence working there. He went, he said, John, this isn't. So he said, look, you'll have to pay this off. He said, we'll still give you the job. You can come back.

11:00He said, but we will have to get up money for this phone bill, whatever it is when it comes in. And I sat there and I went, no. I said, you'll never trust me again and I don't blame you. I said, but I promise I will pay you back. and I went and then, you know, this is the 80s, isn't it? So it's about a month or something, this thing comes, this phone bill, it was like that. And it added up to six and a half thousand dollars, four thousand pounds. And I was playing semi-pro football at Southport and I went and got a job as a sales rep for a drug company because it was a good job, got a car and I started to pay.

11:40And I paid them back, it took me a year and I paid them back. but I was in then I was in the corporate set up the girl I was scared of leaving I started seeing properly we ended up going and then after about three years I think we did the job she wants to get married and I didn't and so I said I need to do something before I get married so I took a bicycle to Australia and I rode it back from Australia right because I didn't want to get married so I did that and in the end got back married her but they kept the job open so again I got sucked straight back into the corporate world so I'm in the corporate world and I thought we had kids it was 26 all of a sudden they had kids and I thought I've just got to get my head down start studying for a master's degree in business get my head down, get my head down, get my head down and then I lost it I lost it and we split up and how did you lose her because we how did i lose i suppose i placed what i thought was most important was financial security because i came from a a background where there was less financial security that was the thing that i thought was the priority and and so and I think I lost there because the best of me was given to everyone else the best of me was given to work the best of me you know I would spend time with the kids but to be fair I don't think if I was a dad now I'd have been I'd be a better most men I'd be a better dad because I'm a better person I just realized what's important whereas then it was like you sure the kids are all right just put a video on it was a little bit like that and then um and so we drifted apart we split up and so the person I was then to come back to your question I didn't want to be one of those dads who didn't see the kids but I couldn't be a part-time dad because my work was I was a sales and marketing director for the country so I was responsible for the UK and Ireland for a drug that stopped people rejecting their organs after the transplant.

14:04So it was a very involved job. So I couldn't say I'll always be there on a Wednesday. But what I could say is I could pick them up from school on a Friday and I could drop them back on a Monday. So I had the kids every weekend. And at that time, they were five, three and one. And so I would work all week, have them all weekend. And that's when I got closer to them. That's when I became a bit more of what I thought a dad should be. but on a Monday, Jesus, I crashed. Jeez, giving your kids back and not being able to see your kids. You know what I mean? That arrangement where you don't see them, you know, don't come on a Wednesday because you're going to disrupt things.

14:47And then all those sad stories that everyone's done where you sit outside your wife's house watching her pull the bedroom curtains where the kids are and think, this is... This is... So, Mondays, I actually invented working from home. I don't know if anyone knows this. It's got nothing to do with COVID. I said to my boss, Mondays, I'm dropping the kids off. Can I work from home? And I'll phone the sales team. We'll have a big conference call. And we'd do the conference call. That'd finish in the morning. I'd set everyone objectives. And then no one could get hold of me then. And then I'd have a bottle of wine, watching Richard and Judy going, oh my god, that's...

15:27And you, what, just get drunk and wallet? And then I thought, I'll stop doing that, I'll try and do something. But it was Monday night, I was 34 years of age, it was, you know, just... You know, the gag is that I'd go out on a Monday night and do what you do when you're 34, so I tried lap dancing, but I wasn't very good. You know, and then the story, the big story, is that I went to the Frog and Bucket in Manchester, Comedy Club. I'd been to the Comedy Store once and I'd been to the Frog and Bucket once. They were my only experience at Comedy Clubs at that time. And I thought, well, it'll be like it was last time we came with 200 people in full, because we'd gone for the Mates 21st.

16:14And the guy on the door said, it's£4 to get in, unless you put your name down. I said, what for? He said, because it's an open mic night. and I didn't even know what that meant. I said, what does that mean? He said, well, it means if you put your name down, your name gets called out, you go on stage, but it also means you don't have to pay£4. And I thought, well, I'm getting divorced, so that's£4 she's not getting. That's the gag, but that is true. So I put my name down, expecting there to be 200 people in there with 80 people put their name down, whatever, never having to get up. And I put my name down, there was seven people in there.

16:49I got called out second. My life changed in those 15 minutes. I found myself on stage. Bizarre. There's loads of things about being on that. Again, the joke that I've said in the stories in the past, which is true, the guy before me was literally doing chicken impressions. The compere was Mick Ferry, who's a brilliant comic. And I thought, he came on, I thought, does he know there's no one here? And then this fella came on doing chicken impressions that were bonkers. It was like, hey, have you ever seen a chicken driver van? and I'm like freaking out and when I say my life changed in 15 minutes if I'd have been called out there I might have already left and I got called out second walked on stage never been on stage before I remember going jeez your lights are bright there's a flashing light when your time's up I didn't even know how long I had so I remember when the lights started flashing going oh your lights broke and I just carried on and I just what did you say though oh mate the honest thing I said I walked on at the time so this was 2000 October 2000 at the time the big thing in the news was French farmers were blocking the borders because of oil disputes or something and so English lorry drivers couldn't get on because you couldn't cross the border in France and I'd said something to my mate that afternoon I thought oh that's funny that and then I found myself in this comedy club I thought I'll say it again which is the worst thing ever to say, I've said it to me, mate, he thinks it's funny.

18:24That's the one rule that you learn in comedy. It's not funny to strangers. Although, I walked downstairs, oh, geez, you're later, Bryce. And then I went, anyway, seeing them French lorry drivers blocking the borders, hey, wouldn't it have been Andy if they'd have done that in 1939? That was it. And I got a similar sort of, from the six, seven people in the room. And then I remember, distinctly, there was a second where I thought, I just get off what are you doing and then I remember thinking why what am I going to do I'm going to go home to an empty house what have I got to lose there's only seven people here one of them thinks he's a chicken so there's nothing to lose and I just literally just went I'm only here because I'm getting divorced and I just started talking about getting divorced and I cannot I cannot remember anything that I said apart from the lights flicking and me going, oh, your lights broke.

19:23And then they actually played the Pearl and Dean music to get me off. So I don't know how long I did, 20 odd minutes or something, I was meant to do five. And then Mick and the guy who ran the place, David Perkins, just came over and said, where have you been doing your comedy? And I said, I've never done it. And he went, we're here on a Monday. Just come every Monday, try and think of jokes. There might be something in this. You might have something. he said that all the stuff you know was good he said the bit where he started talking about divorce and started crying he said don't don't do that next week did you?

20:00no I didn't I didn't cry but he said but I did talk about divorce just come and that was it I ended up having somewhere to go I ended up I ended up having something to talk about I ended up having something to look forward to so when you're asked to save me life it gave me a life it gave me a life that saved the pace that I was. But can I ask you about, like, the job you were doing for a pharmaceutical company where you are the UK sales guy, you've got a status, you've got a name, a reputation there, and then the willingness to go and be the beginner, to go and put yourself into the arena where you've never done it before and you can fail spectacularly.

20:41What was the mindset shift there between those two? Because I can imagine there's a fair bit of ego that could have gotten in the way. Well, to complete the story, because it's very important that within life, everyone understands your motivation. Because sometimes your motivation is not as obvious as people think. And what happened with me is I started doing the stand-up comedy. I kept it to myself. I didn't tell anyone. I didn't even tell me mates. I literally kept it to myself. I remember taking the kids one night because I got booked to do a Saturday night. after I'd been doing it for a few months.

21:19And that's when I had the kids. And I took my kids to my mum and dad's to say, look, can you babysit them? And my mum's going, well, why, what are you doing? I said, oh, I'm going to a comedy club. And my dad's going, look, he's obviously got a date. Like, let him go. I said, no, I haven't got a date. He said, well, what are you going to a comedy club for? I said, well, because I'm doing it. I'm going to get up and be a comedian. And my mum's sitting there going, oh, Jesus, Joel, is it that bad? It's everything gone that far wrong. She said, what are you doing that for? You've got to make a show yourself.

21:50I had that old podcast show. Someone was going to be a comedian and they laughed. Yeah, exactly. And it was so, because it was so alien. You know what I mean? The idea of it. And obviously she got to see me live the life that I live in. It's been brilliant. But I ended up one night getting a phone call. This is the big, I suppose, the big heartfelt bit and the truth of it. And it informs everything else. I got a phone call someone had dropped out at the the frog and bucket to go along and fill in and do the middle spot 15 minutes at this point I've been doing it for about 6 months and I used to do this joke when I say I'm really sad at the moment I split up my wife and she'd go it's not that bad we're not divorced or anything I've just killed her but I knew I was going to miss her so I've kept her head in the fridge which is you know it was it's questionable as well but it's edgy I stood on the stage, I said it, and I looked to the left, and the head that was meant to be in the fridge was sat in the audience.

22:54And I remember thinking, because we were at that point, we were at decree nightside, we decreed the divorce, we were just trying to sort out the financials, decree absolutely. We'd been apart about 20 months. And I remember thinking, Jesus, that joke's going to cost me another 20 grand. It's not that funny. and I remember getting through it and then she came up to me at the bar and I was expecting the arguments because we barely saw each other because of the way I picked the kids up and dropped them off at school and we were, as I say, well down the line towards a divorce and she said that was great I was expecting a rouse she said, you've got that glint back in your eye that you lost she did say what happened to her I said I married you she said and then she said well can we do something and we ended up going to relate we ended up getting back together and that so I got my family back I got and that is where I always comedy this life saving thing I got that back and so when you look at the motivation to then go I'm now going to start something new I've been doing it for five or six years people had started been on the circuit with alan carl michael mackenside jimmy carl they'd started to go on i never when i when i got back with melanie i sat down i said look you've seen me do comedy i said i'll give any i cannot give it up i said it's going to be hard because obviously i'm working in the weekend i'll be doing that over the weekend i said but i can't give it up and she said I don't expect you to she said I saw the difference so don't give it up then when it came to a point of me thinking I need to decide you know you get booked you're the headline and all the clubs in the country you go on you smash comedy is a real meritocracy because at that night in that room no one can argue with who made more people laugh it becomes obvious so and then you realize there's a window that people are asking you to do bits of telly and and i was being asked to do the jonathan ross the warm-up for the jonathan ross show by my agents i said i've got a sales meeting he's like madonna's on like like you and everyone's coming involved in telly it's a way people see i said well i've got a sales meeting and i remember and this is a true story addison creswell who was the big showbiz agent who had jonathan right and i was an underling in his agency and it just couldn't get that out of another life and I remember he got I got this message from Danny who's my agent said Addison wants to meet you which is like you know said Alex Ferguson wants to meet you and he was that important and I'd never met him before he said come down to the office in London I thought oh Jesus it's going to be a big day so and I was working in London so I turned up in my suit he burst through this door in this purple suit he went oh scarce he said I've heard you got a job give up your job I'll get you the money I'll get you the fack of money I'll get that he said I said well it's not as easy as that.

26:05He said, what do you earn? 25 grand? I said, no. He said, 35 grand? I said, no. He said, 45 grand? I said, no. He said, 55 grand? I said, no. He said, keep your fucking job. And that's as long as the meeting lasted. But when it came to it, I said to Melanie, if I don't give this a go, I'm going to blame the fact that I've got a mortgage and three kids and I'm going to be the man who blames my own kids for me not taking a chance. And she said, do it. She said, it's not about your job. She said, you've got to hold the family together. She said, I'll give up work so I'm more flexible on time. She said, but if you don't do it, you'll never know.

26:47And I'd started doing sportsman's dinners midweek. That was bumping my wages up. And I said, if I can carry on doing that, go self-employed, we should be alright. And for the first year, it went like that. The second year, it went like that. And the third year by the third year i i got everything i could on the on the house on the mortgage i was mortgaged to the hills and then it just just went like that and just turned and went up but can i go back to that meeting that you had with melanie where where you decided you were going to go in on the comedy scene full time because as somebody that said that you grew up in maybe not the most affluent of circumstances.

27:32You wanted to get off the estate you'd grown up in. You'd seen your dad go through financial struggles and things like that. And then you've got yourself a really comfy corporate job that you could have stayed in for the next 30 years. To do that still requires a bit of a leap and it requires courage. And I wonder if you'd explain courage to us in that context, John. Courage? wow that's a good uh good good question somebody asked me a similar question and the the instead of using the word courage the the the said confidence but it's it's a similar thing it's made and i would say that it's it's it's it's an assessment of consequences you know you just look at the consequences what happens if you get this wrong and where i got to we were living in didsbury in a nice house in Didsbury.

28:28I'd gone through what I thought was the worst side of things, which was not living with my kids. And I had this job. And when I say it was a good job, I mean, I was, to put it in numbers terms, I was on 60 grand a year basic in 2000. You know, when I left, my P1160 was£107 ,000 that year with bonuses. I had a boop and I had a car and I had a good pension. I had all of those things that even now is a good wage. I had great prospects, absolutely great prospects where they were trying to get me to move on into the next bit. And the bit where I sat with Melanie and we spoke about it was based on the fact that I was already so far away from where I began that if it went dreadfully wrong, I couldn't get back there.

29:23I just knew I wouldn't get back there. I knew if I didn't, I backed myself and I backed her, I backed us because I thought, we're not going to end up back on out of state. There's nothing wrong with out of state, but we're not going to end up back there. We'll just have a smaller house. And the kids might have to go to a different school then and I'll have a smaller car and I'll just have to get another job. I remember on that third year when things changed, I remember I was putting a business plan together and I presented it to the comedy store about doing training for people using comedy. I was going to go, I had this thing where I was going, what we'll do, we'll get salespeople in and I'll talk to them about communication skills and from my work's background and then we'll use comedy and then they can get their corporate mates in.

30:12They've got to do one gig, which is a five minute piece of comedy. but the whole idea is communication. I had it all packaged to go and then I got on telly. And it never happened. I spoke to Mike Pearls, I've always said. Did you? Just jumping straight into the comedy, I don't know if you listen to, there's a podcast with the organisational psychologist Adam Grant where he talks to the author Malcolm Gladwell and it's Gladwell who describes comedians as being master psychologists because he says you have to do what you've just described. You have to walk on stage, read the room, understand what's going to hit the funny bone, where something's not going to land as well.

30:52And I'm interested in explaining, how do you learn to walk in and read a room like that then? Some of it is intuition. Some of it is, you know, how you come into comedy. I was a salesperson before, as you were saying, and as a salesperson, you need to read people. you need to you know you're trying to sell something to them you need to get them to like you and you need to read them a little bit there's an element of that and some of it is the I know one of the questions you'll often ask people is what advice would you give somebody starting out in this field and my advice is don't go for the perfect anyone wants to do stand-up comedy don't sit at home until you've come up with the best joke get on stage get on stage the more stage time.

31:41You never write a better joke, but you make a joke better by knowing how to deliver it. So it's all about stage time. And the more time you spend on stage, the more you get that essence of a room, that nuance. I used to walk on, before I was known, I used to walk on at like the comedy store. And the first thing that everyone expects a comedian to do in a club, is seriously, and I used to walk on and I'd mess about with a stool and everyone would be going well it's not is he starting and I'd just sit down I'd go right any questions and people would go what the and then somebody would shout something out and then that would be it off that question that would be my act and it it made an impact because it was low energy but it was kind of forceful confidence and how did you come up with that how did I come up with it as an approach as a concept yeah just because I think the first time the first time I started doing it was at the Edinburgh Festival and they had a show on at the Edinburgh Festival called Late in Life which didn't start till midnight and you'd be getting on sometimes at half three in the morning after Johnny Vegas would be swinging from a chandelier or something.

33:05And so it was chaos, it was madness and it was always heckling. And I thought, and everyone was going, right, I'm going to go on, I'm going to beat the audience. I'm going to go on to it. I'm going to really give them all the energy. You used to try and build up the energy. And I thought, why do that? Just, I'm getting paid anyway. And so I thought, right, I'm just going to go on. And that's when I started using a stool, carry a stool and sit down, which is like planting yourself on the stage and go, right, I'm here. It's all right. I'll be funny in a minute. Don't worry about it. And it's amazing that psychology of that.

33:41If you're quiet, the people who are noisy become quiet. If you're noisy, they'll just get louder. If you're trying to win them over, they'll get louder. I remember dying on my arse in Newcastle. It was the one complete death I've ever had. And I remember I knew I was dying because the audience started having a chat. They didn't heckle me. They didn't sound like this. It's worse, isn't it? They just started going... And I thought, oh my God. And that, twisting that the other way and going, right, I don't need to go, bam, bam, bam, I'm here. I just need to be here and wait until you know I'm here and then I'll start.

34:22Again, when we knew we were going to speak to you, John, I was looking at sort of the academic angle of comedy and I read a paper from 1978 by a guy called Samuel James who said that a lot of comedians often feel a sense of control over their audience, which helps their mental health. That's one of the... And you're describing almost like controlling the energy in the room, controlling the noise that comes in there. You know what? For a start, I didn't even know there was papers on. There's not many. I'd love to get these references, because I am, if you like, the least students of comedy that there is.

35:01I've not, I never watched comedy, I never, and when I started comedy, everyone else then goes, I'm going to watch loads of comedy because you started doing comedy. And I thought, I can't, I can't. Because if I watch someone says a brilliant joke, it'll get in my head. And I don't want to, I want everything to be, you know, I'm further down the line now and I do enjoy watching other people. But for a long time, I just used to live my life and not think about comedy until I turned up at the club. and so that kind of psychological analysis of it i can appreciate uh probably from a different perspective because i you know now i've you know an inverted commas been a success at it i can understand what drove me to it i can understand the attraction of it and part of it is that you are the you are the one person in the room that's facing the opposite way to everyone else you are by default either the least important or the most important person in the room depending on how you approach it.

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38:19If you go through your life, being the third person on stage that night at the comedy club and it doesn't happen, listen to the voice that says to you, just walk off and it doesn't happen. This moment after moment after moment, if things had just turned out slightly differently, I mean, you wouldn't be with your wife. You wouldn't be this happy guy sitting in front of us. And I think sometimes people listen to high performance because they're looking for ways to optimize their life, right? And I think sometimes we have to have a really honest conversation that you don't know if a moment is going to transform your life for the better or the worse, but you need to find out.

38:53Yeah, absolutely, right? And sometimes I think the challenge is not waiting for the golden moments. It's not like that. It's like you make one decision and that opens five other decisions and then those decisions are different than if you'd made that decision that when you go down that route. And it is very much sliding doors. And I see that. I see that so often in so many lives and I see it in my own. And I read something recently that if you're born in Western society, you should look at your life based on the fact that you've probably got 4 ,000 weeks life. 4 ,000 weeks doesn't sound like a lot, does it?

39:38particularly as you know the first thousand you haven't really got a decision in you haven't got any playing and the last couple of hundred are a bonus so there's a core bit in there where if you put off doing something on Monday till the next week that's one of your weeks gone what would you say to people fearful about making those big decisions those decisions shouldn't be that big because you should Like, I evolved to the position of saying, if I don't do this now, I'm just going to be a really good circuit comedian, which is great, because the thing is with comedy, and I will always say this, there's not, like, there's not an Ed Sheeran of comedy, there's not an Adele of comedy, there's not someone who's just significantly better than every other comedian.

40:29You can go to any comedy club, and I urge anyone to do it, and they are, the quality is there. It's just some of us have been a little bit luckier or a little bit more consistent or at the right time. But honestly, the window of opportunity is very, very small. And I think for some people where they go, I need to make a big decision to change my whole life. You don't. You need to make a little decision to move it towards being able to make another little decision, to make another little decision. And then you'll find yourself that you've evolved to that position. what are the things from your childhood that are still in there that still sort of rattle around inside i guess you know you might not call it a trauma but certainly the challenges of growing up in a household where poverty was was a was common right and it was common among the people that you grew up with yeah but it's poverty it's too strong a word it was a lack of affluence is not the same is poverty because the lack of affluence means that, you know, you don't have the newest trainers, you don't have a big telly, but you've got roof over your head, there's always food on the table, there's, there's, I, I remember writing in my, um, autobiography, it was funny, me, me and my brother, uh, at the row of us actually, afterwards, um, because he remembered the difference.

41:56Now, and what happened was my dad went to prison when I was six when he went to prison and he was in prison for a full year. And when he came out, he suffered what a lot of prisons do when they come out, trying to get a job and finding work and so on. And I remember these distinct memories of me that are going out, trying to get a job, coming back in, because at that time it was you'd turn up and see if there's any work that day and stuff. and my perception of success and my way of measuring whether my dad had got a job is if we had cheese, if we had cheese in the fridge, cheese, cheese seemed an expensive food and when we got cheese in the fridge it's because my dad had been working and I put that in my autobiography and my brother said, oh, that wasn't it, I don't remember that but like he's five years older than me so when he was 11 and i was six or you know he would have been 12 and 7 it was a different he was seeing the world through his filter that was my my perception of it and that if there's a ghost in my childhood it's that it's it's i remember that i definitely remember that measurement that way of being under tangibly understand what was going on If there's two things that influenced me from childhood was that, going to see my dad in prison and being...

43:34Because he started off in Preston, which is Category A, so you go to the door, someone unlocks it, and then you walk through with all the families, and then they lock it, and then they open the next door, and then they lock it, and just the way you were looked at, just the way you felt judged. And I thought, that's not going to happen. That gave me such a fire in my belly. I remember because it was like, that prison was a bit like porridge. You all had the same uniform. And we got in, dad gave us Texan bars. He'd obviously got his allowance, bought Texan bars for us. And we went with my dad's brother, Uncle Freddie and my mum.

44:17And oh my God, I, that defined me as saying I'm going to get on I'm going to do my best

44:27now that I'm thinking about it it was me mum just the way people looked at your mum which is it bothers me a little bit more now because as I say the current shows I love Letters 2 because we lost her last year But I think just that, standing in a room and knowing people didn't respect you. And I thought, that's not going to happen. That's not going to happen to my family, to my kids. So I think that was a massive driving force. And then the other thing was a real tragic incident when I was, the year after, I was at the swimming bats in Winstead where we used to live an outdoor swimming bats and I was with me mum and dad and there was an adult pool and a kids pool I remember playing in a kids pool with a friend from school and then I went back to start with me mum and dad and then there was a bit of a kerfuffle and I remember seeing a fella in his clothes dive into the water and then pull this kid out.

45:49And then they were trying to do mouth-to-mouth and pump his chest at the same time, counteracting each other. And an ambulance man came up. And it was brutal in some respects, but I think it's probably the best thing that you can do. and he just held him up by his foot upside down and all the water gushed out of his mouth and he was obviously dead and that was my friend who I've been playing with. And there you go. And I remember everyone left the pool. It was a weird thing. Everyone left the pool. It's the first time I've seen the pool empty. And I remember thinking, oh my God, I could have the pool to myself.

46:35and I remember diving in and then it was almost like death had gone around me. I was cold and I got out and I thought, I thought, and I won't say his name for the family's reasons, but I remember thinking, oh my God, that's him. And I just knew. I wasn't traumatised or shocked. I remember the school assembly about it and all the rest of it. And I remember all of those things, but what I took away from it is it can go like that. I'd seen my friend die and it taught me that I could die and that none of this was certain I have to say you took me I wasn't expecting this to take me around I wasn't expecting I think the conversation about going into the prison I realised that the judgement then as we were talking wasn't about me, it was about my mum and that's the bit that got me how does it feel talking about it yeah listen I'm a middle aged man now so I'm a lot more emotional than I used to be I never used to be emotional at all and I don't mind that and I think also it's a good thing to sometimes have somebody just poke you and go why is that because it's that's why this works That's why we were talking before, why podcasts work.

48:03When you give somebody space and a safe environment, they'll always be able to walk away from it going, I'm glad I got that off my chest. It's a great phrase, I think, sometimes, that the things that are hard for you are not necessarily bad for you, right? Those are hard moments that actually gave you so much in a strange way. So what do those memories do for you now? They make me realise, like, again, I just started on the train on the way in. My wife's just heard of an accident that's happened to someone that she knows who's unfortunately been killed in this accident. And I just keep ramming home the phrase that this is not, nothing's guaranteed here.

48:47You have to make the most of this. And I'd lost that. That's the bit where he's talking about leaving the job. I'd lost. I'd gone, corporate world, do this, do that, do that, do that, do that. because there'll be a good day at the end of it. And the kids will be safe and we'll have that respect because we'll have a big house. And we did have a big house. And I had that respect. I had the company card. And also, incredibly, because I worked for an American company, then a Japanese company, what was brilliant, and this is, you know, not a judgment on anyone else, but my accent never held me back because they didn't understand that someone with this accent wasn't meant to be doing the job I was doing.

49:32Amazing. Do you know what I mean? They never saw that limitation because in England, as you know, regional accent can give people a perception of you. And so I keep coming down to the fact that those things made me go, right, yeah, it's not about what might be there tomorrow. It's about making sure the steps you're taking to get to that horizon are worth taking in their own right and worth enjoying in their own right. I wonder whether now as a dad, how much of all these amazing and sometimes difficult experiences have informed the way that you parent your boys. I wish I had processed them earlier.

50:13I'm processing them now as a man in my 50s because a man in my 30s, I was too busy trying to get on. I really know I would be a better dad now than I was then in what way? just because I'm more self aware and I think the comedies allowed me to do that I think the life of it's a funny thing if you like success and achievements I don't understand these people who are constantly, constantly, constantly not satisfied what you were asking me before about the step going into comedy I'd already won in my world I'd won and I had a beautiful wife whose dad was the dentist so I'd already gone up you know what I mean we lived in a nice area and if it went wrong I knew I could get another job and I'd won so I could never go back and I think that's the difference really when the consequence of getting it wrong never felt as dramatic as it might have looked to other people.

51:27One of your sons has lost his hearing or is losing his hearing. Is that right? I think back to the sort of challenges you've had, and I think we have a lot of parents that listen to this, and like all parents, they all feel like they're getting it wrong all of the time. And that's a genuine challenge for your son to deal with, but also for you as a family to deal with. And I suppose I just wonder, with all the experiences that you've had, the kind of messages that you've given him, for coping in adversity? He can hear with hearing aids, and he's lost probably 70 % of his hearing. Well, it is 70%.

51:58But the band he can hear is like vocal stuff, but if an alarm bell goes off, he won't hear it. It's that kind of thing. So you're kind of not completely deaf so that you're in the deaf community. You're not hearing all the time so that you're in the hearing community. And that's really, it's been a real challenge for him. but what I found when we made that documentary is I did what you would do if your child lost his hearing I wanted to fix it I wanted to get it right I wanted to get it sorted I'll do it what's wrong with it right alright I'll go and phone someone and what he needed he used to go just come here just that I don't know I guess I didn't have it in my locker.

52:49I didn't have it there. Do you have it now? I've got it now. I'm crying on the fucking tally, or whatever this is. But you know what I mean? I'm emotional now in a way I wasn't then, because then I was too task-orientated. I was too focused on going, I know there's something wrong, and I can find the answer. and because I was working with medical people I'll talk to them and I'll make all these connections and I'll fly you to America we'll do that, that'll do, that'll do no it's fine, I'll do that but really sometimes your kid just needs that they don't need an answer they just need safety It reminds us of, we interviewed a guy called Charles Duhigg like a Pulitzer Prize winner in Arthur and he gave us a great way of understanding what you've just beautifully said if you think at any stage with any individual there's three H's they're looking for to help, to hear or to hug them.

53:46And it'll always be one of those. And often breakdowns happen because we think we're helping. And they don't want that. They just want to hug or... Well, they just want to be listened to. Yeah. And I... Yeah, if there was a regress in my life, it would be that. I wouldn't be too hard on yourself though, right? Because I think that you've done what you needed to do at the stages when you needed to do them. Yeah. like how can you we had a guest on who once said to us if you'd live the life that person's lived you'd act exactly the same way listen right we've been through me and my wife had loads of conversations and you know about loads of things you know what i mean we got back together but like every marriage we've had our ups and downs with loads of stuff going on and also what happened i became famous when the kids were finding their own identity so their own identity was then being was being seen through a filter of other people going, oh, your dad's on the telly, go on, make us laugh.

54:43And they're going, well, I don't even sound like him because they grew up in Manchester, not Liverpool. You know what I mean? And there's all of those things, you know, one of my sons, a dancer, he's not interested in football. Everyone goes, oh, your dad supports Liverpool. He goes, what's that got to do with me? So all of those things were going, where I see people who are famous and, you know, financially secure, and then they have kids, their world is starting from the position of everybody knows where they fit in whereas their world was changing I didn't know where it fitted in do you know what I mean?

55:18we didn't know so we were all changing and we've looked at it loads of times me and Melanie and we've gone you know what on that day what we were facing that was the only decision we could have made because it was right we never ever took the easy decision we never ever did the thing that just suited us we did the thing that felt right at the time you know at the start of this conversation and you said to us what have you learned from all these conversations what i'm now reminded of is we've done as i said at the start about 300 of these and we've worked out the high performances doing the best you can where you are with what you've got yeah and that's exactly what you've done you've done the best you can where you were with what you had.

56:01When you were a young dad, that's what you had at that time. You're now a wiser, older person, so you have something else. And I think one of the best things you've said is that you made the decision to give up doing television because it wasn't servicing you anymore. That's not the act of a desperate person who's unfulfilled and looking to fill a void in their life. That's the act of a content, stable person who's now finally able to sit, have a conversation like this, look back on the life they've lived. and I think this is the most healthy way to be now. Listen, I don't know why I've been as emotional during this because I have spoke about similar stuff in the past but I think it's because I haven't spoke in this way, in this environment for a while and I'm more able to process it.

56:50You're right, I am more content now than I've ever been. I'm interested in, you told us about your other son that's a dancer. And again, we talk often in stereotypes where you might assume that you're a lad from Liverpool, you like your football and you said to people, why doesn't your son like that? How did you end up having a different approach to encouraging your son to go down a route that you weren't familiar with? oh god I I it was funny I remember when he was a kid and there was a ballet came to Manchester and he was about I don't know 12 something like that and it was Michael I forgot to say her name now but the the male guy who puts on these shows with all male dancers his name's gone Sadler's Wells he does it He's brilliant.

57:46And he did a male, all male Swan Lake and stuff like that. Did your boy dance? He went to watch it. He didn't dance in it, right? No, no, he went to watch it. And he was about 11, something like that, 11 or 12. And I thought, I want to show him that I don't know anything about it, but I want you to do it. I want you to love doing it. And it was on on a Monday. and I remember on the Sunday or the Saturday I'd taken the other two to go and watch Liverpool and during the game stuff was happening and I was saying like this and then and I was explaining what was going on to them during the game and then I went to the ballet and I was going why have you done that I was getting him to explain it to me and I just I think it's I love it's never ever been something where I thought oh my god we need to make him a boxer I just love the fact that he went this is what I want to do thank you so much for coming on this and being genuine not being a comedian because I know it's so easy to be a comedian right and every now and again you want to do something and go like we spoke about if I didn't we spoke about my mum we spoke about the childhood situations if I wanted this to sell tickets I'd avoided all of that I'd have been on here for an hour and just said a load of funny stuff no one's You've got to go, I tell you what, his dad went to prison, let's buy a ticket.

59:15That was the new talk. Let's buy a ticket. That'll be good, yeah. So quickfire questions, John. The three non-negotiable behaviours that you think are most important in life?

59:29Manners. Yeah, 100 % manners. I hate people with bad manners. Respect everyone else. and the one thing that as this leaves my mouth my wife and everyone who knows me well is going to go, you're taking the piss be on time as I've got older I've got more and more annoyed with people who are late even though I've spent most of my life being the most late person in the world what advice would you give a teenage John? a teenage John? wow I think a teenage me when I think back to me as a teenager, I'd say it'll be alright. It'll be alright. What's your biggest strength and what is your greatest weakness?

1:00:17My biggest strength, I think, is optimism. And my greatest weakness is... Optimism is sometimes like bravery. If you have too much of it, it can go wrong. Very good. What's the single best piece of advice you've ever received? saved and why oh god single best piece of advice

1:00:43I remember when I was sat with my mum and dad I left school and I went back the school I went to at the time I hadn't really had the sixth form you started to have a sixth form 2000 kids 7 people went to me and I went on the first day and I turned up in jeans and he said you can't have jeans you've got to have slacks I'm not going to ask me more I'm not going home and say can I have slacks so I went and got a job and I got a job in an ICI as a male lad and it was a good job most of my mates were on schemes and all that and I was getting 42 pounds a week and I and I did it but I knew I wanted to get off to your stage so I kept on doing A levels at night school and I bumped into an old teacher of mine who said Jeff Logan who said look he was my English teacher he said when you come back and do A levels would the school have you back and I went it was a term I said I've got a job I'll give me mum keep I'm not coming back because at that time you went back to school you got a child allowance I said I'm not doing that and he said well look but this is your opportunity in the school maybe work something out so that you can sign on the dole on the side and all this stuff, which actually happened.

1:02:05So I went from£46 to£18 instead of£6.50. I remember all these numbers. And so I went home to my mum and dad, and I said, I'm thinking I'm going back to school. And he was going, why? I said, because I want to do A-levels. And he was going, why? I said, because I want to go to university. And he was going, but what for? You've got a job. And ICI, you get your pension, ICI. I said, but I just want to do it. And he was going, why? And I said, and I remember, I used to go to work. I used to get the bus at six o 'clock in the morning and we sat up. I was still in my wear clothes at midnight and after spending all night of trying to talk me out of it because I had a job, I remember my dad's words.

1:02:46He went, all right, done. He said, you've got to do it because if you don't try it, you will never know. That's the best advice I could give anyone. I love that. And the final message for the audience that have enjoyed this remarkable conversation. what would you like to leave ringing their ears your your one golden rule if you like or your one final message of how we can all live a high performance life da give it a go because if you don't give it a go you'll never know

1:03:17damien jake you know we've done a lot of conversations hundreds of conversations without doubt that's one of the most moving and enlightening absolutely yeah it was incredibly powerful i think if you've tuned in to see the comedian that you normally see on telly laughing bubbly telling funny anecdotes this was quite a gear shift of hearing the real person behind that mask in many ways and i'm so pleased that after discussing some really hard times we end the conversation with him saying like he's the happiest and most content he's ever been and i just think this conversation serves as a real reminder for everyone watching or listening to this that we can judge ourselves too harshly with the new information that we have relating to the decisions we made years ago like John now has so much more information about himself that he he's judging the way that he behaved as a as a young dad the way that he behaved when he was about to get divorced the way that he behaved when he was a kid and I think it's so important that we just remember and realize that we're just doing the best that we can in those moments and that you can't use hindsight to kind of relive your life.

1:04:24And I know that some of that has left pain for him, but I also think that he totally understands that actually in those moments, he was doing the best that he could. Yeah, which is a textbook definition of high performance. I think the other thing that I took out of it was that some really interesting research on this where it looks at people's regrets in life, where we talk about the ideal self we have, the self where we have a series of demands on us, and then the person that we are, like just accepting ourselves. And what the research says, that most of our regrets in life come from where we haven't taken a path, things that we haven't done, risks that we didn't take.

1:05:00And I think what John's a great articulation of is that he was willing to step into the arena to go and take a big salary cut to be able to go and actually pursue his dream of standing on a stage and putting himself into places where he felt most alive. and I think there's a good reminder for all of us there that find the places that give us that spark of joy and then lean into them, go and find more opportunities to introduce them into our world. And I think... I don't think we'll regret it. No, absolutely. Because I think one of the saddest things is, you know, on your deathbed, these ghosts of missed opportunities floating around saying, if only you trusted yourself, look what you could have been.

1:05:38And he absolutely won't have those. Thank you so much, mate. Thank you, mate. That was really powerful, but really profound as well. Thank you. And a big thanks to John. Yeah. That brings us to the end of today's show. If you're keen to catch John live, and if there are tickets still available, they've certainly been selling fast, then check out his new tour, John Bishop 25. There's a link to that in the description to this show. John, thank you very much for joining Damien and myself and good luck with your tour. And you know, in between tours, John told us that his goal is just to live life and keep going for happiness.

1:06:12And I think that is something we can all connect with. Thanks for joining us. and we'll see you again soon.

1:06:40At Capella University, learning online doesn't mean learning alone. you'll get support from people who care about your success like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve you'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program plus career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals a different future is closer than you think with capella university learn more at capella.edu