John Obi Mikel Exposes Man United Transfer Scandal & Chelsea's Dressing Room Chaos (E341)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance app. over locked me in the room they took my phone away I couldn't make any phone call I couldn't call my parents my family nor my agent back then and I was like you have to sign this contract that is former footballer John Obi Mikel a man central to Chelsea's success under Jose Mourinho a man who's pretty much won the lot in football and a man now ready to lift the lid on what life is really like as a professional at the elite level conversations like these are incredibly rare Mikel's about to explain why Jose Mourinho was so successful and also why it eventually went wrong with him.

1:04You're going to find out which players were the leaders in the Chelsea dressing room and how they went about doing that. And finally, he's going to tell us a great story about how the players would always know if a manager was about to be sacked. But before all of that, Mikel will pull no punches as he shares how he felt bullied into signing for Manchester United. The difficult day he had to say no to sacked Alex Ferguson face-to-face. and the dark times when he wasn't allowed to play the game he loved for a year. This is a rare glimpse into what actually happens behind closed doors in the world of elite sport, as we welcome John Obi Mikel to High Performance.

1:44Well, Mikel, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. You know, I see that people often ask you this, about the story of you joining Manchester United and then leaving and joining Chelsea. You get asked about that a lot, right? A lot, yeah. One thing that I've noticed never gets asked is, what was that like for you? As an 18-year-old kid, the pressure you must have felt to have two of the biggest clubs in the world basically playing a game of tug of war over you. Yeah, that's exactly what it was. Tug of war. That's what it was called back then. No, for me, I was 17 then as well. I wasn't 18 when it started.

2:14Wow. So you were a kid. I was a kid, yeah. Really, really I was. So for me, it was tough. Mentally, it was really, really tough. And I think that's something that has helped me all throughout my career because I was alone when all that was happening. I was alone. Of course, Chelsea didn't really want me to speak with anybody. FIFA didn't want me to speak with anybody. My United never wanted me to see my family or speak to anybody. So imagine a 17-year-old sitting there. I've signed a pre-contract with Manchester United. And then Chelsea obviously sent me to Norway. and then knowing, seeing the press conference that I've just signed for Manchester United holding up in Manchester United's jersey.

2:58I mean, Roman went mad. Let me just, like, for people that don't know anything about this story at all, you already had a relationship with Chelsea, right? I had, yeah, yeah, yeah. The first, it is crazy. My first trial was with Manchester United. My first trial was with Manchester United and then I went back home because I was in 18 yet. I couldn't play for Manchester United. The rules back then, you have to have about 75 % of your national team caps before you could play for a Premier League club. So Manchester United was like, okay, you come for trials two, three months, and then we send you back to Nigeria, and then you come again until you get to 18, because we definitely want to sign you.

3:37So I went back home after the first trial, and then for some reason, an agent got in touch with Chelsea and said, listen, I can get you this kid, this wonder kid, I can get you this kid. So Chelsea sent him to my home in just where I live, this small city. So he came to me, spoke to me. He's like, listen, this project, this new manager, the special one just signed for Chelsea, you know, and they've just won the Premier League back to back, blah, blah, blah. And then I was like, whoa, okay, the project sounds good. So I went to trials at Chelsea as well. And then Chelsea was like, okay, you know what?

4:13We're not going to send you back home because my unit had made that mistake. Like, we are going to send you to Oslo in Norway. So you're going to be there, you're going to school there, and you're going to play football. You already were alone. No, no, I was with a couple of my other Nigerian players because I said I couldn't be alone. So they sort of got about two or three players that played with me at the 17, under 20 tournament. So they took us all there. So we stayed there, we schooled there, and we played football there. when I turned 17 I played a game for Lee and Oslo I played my first game and then the week after that I turned 18 and then Chelsea came back and said okay listen we're going to get you over now you have to come to you have to come to to London yeah but then the whole thing happened when I signed the contract with with Manchester United and then so how did you end up signing that contract for Man United if Chelsea were saying come to London and we're looking after you.

5:12But they keep telling me that, but it never happened. Really? You know what I mean? But because I wasn't 18 then. I wasn't 18 then. So Chelsea keep saying, listen, we want you at the club. You're going to come to the club. But then United, after the first game, Fergie sent, everybody now knew where I was because I played the game. I played so well. I was man of the match of the game. So Fergie now sent the Manchester United scout to... That is so funny. So Chelsea basically hidden you in Norway. No one knew where you were so they could get to you. Yeah. Once you played, man, you were like, he's there, go.

5:42He's there, go. Yeah, exactly what happened. So, Fergie sent the scout, Jim Ryan, it was called. Sent Jim Ryan to lean Oslo. And then he came with a massive contract. Sitting there thinking, you have to sign this now. The boss, the gaffer wants you. We've been looking all over for you. Where have you been? I was like, I'm here. Yeah, the pressure. And the manager then, in my club in lean, used to be an ex-Manchester United player. so obviously he knew Fergie the whole contact and everything so he spoke to him he's like okay get Jim Ryan down I'm sure we can we can pressure the kid to sign and that's exactly what happened so they came over locked me in the room with the sporting director of Lee Noleslaw with Jim Ryan and myself and the coach that's it nobody else so locked me in the room and I was like you have to sign this contract the boss wants you to sign what were you thinking at that point?

6:37I was thinking what is going on here. And what about figures and things like that, Mikael? The financial details. Oh, the financial, I think, it was a massive contract there. Who was helping you with all that? No one. No one. I was alone. That was the crazy part about it because even my friends that I went to to Lee in Oslo that I was staying with, I couldn't speak to them. I couldn't speak to them. My phone was gone. I didn't know where my phone was. They took my phone away. I couldn't make any phone call. I couldn't call my parents, my family, nor my agent. back then. I couldn't call him. And I was just sitting in the room and they were like, you have to sign the contract, Miguel.

7:14Just sign the contract, please. The guy wants you to come to Manchester. We've been looking everywhere for you. We didn't know you were here. And I was like, but Chelsea brought me here. I was like, no, no. I think it was about a million pounds. It was. Yeah, I think it was about a million pounds. What were the kind of emotions you were feeling? Listen, I was going through so much emotion. I looked at the contract. A million quid for a 70-year-old, you know. Not from a, I wasn't born from a silver spoon. I was from a very poor family. My family struggled, sometimes struggled to get by every day.

7:45You know, growing up was tough. It was really tough. So for me, I was always thinking, how do I get my family out of such situation? So when you see such contract, and you're sitting there, a 70-year-old, you're thinking, I know this could help my family massively, get my family from this poor situation where we are financially. and so I had so many emotions going on and you have this four men sitting there and telling you, sign the contract, sign the contract, sign the contract with no agent, none of my family member was there. So for me, it was really, really, really tough, really tough.

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10:08Does this sort of stuff go on today, do you think? I hope not. I hope not. I think now FIFA, UEFA, and the clubs as well, they've changed the way they sign players. I think now when you see a player being signed, there's always a family member there, which is something that I think is massively important. You have to have a family member there, or some sort of like an agent. You can't just bully a kid into signing a contract Locked me up for like hours and hours I just finished training and I got into that room Locked me up And after I signed the contract Did the press conference They took me to a hotel Locked me up in a room They had like a bodyguard sitting outside the hotel I couldn't go out You signed the contracts and they immediately did the press conference Immediately did the press conference straight away So everything was rushed, rushed, rushed They wanted to get it out there and get it done As quickly as possible signed the contract we have to do you had no control then really I had no control and did you feel bullied into it of course I did of course I did I felt massively bullied because I was alone there was no one there that represents me I couldn't even speak to my friends they had to send them home you know they had to send them home the club the sporting director of the club back there Morgan Anderson I think he finally eventually went to prison or something like that I don't know if he was for that but there was so many this shady DLC day.

11:27It's also super sad because you've grown up in the city of Yos in Nigeria. You've grafted, you've worked, you've come onto the world stage. People are talking about this young player that's emerging from Africa. He's going to be like the next Makaleli or whoever you looked up to at that time. And then the moment you signed for Man United should be the greatest, happiest, most incredible moment for you and your family. But it sounds like it was anything but that. Yeah, it was. No, no, it should have been. But obviously, I know when that Chelsea sent me there, And they've been looking after me, you know, paying me small, you know, little salaries here and there, not something massive.

12:02But, and I knew they shouldn't have done that, but they found a way to do that because I was a 17 year old. So for me, it was tough. It was really, really tough. And yes, it should have been the best moment of my life. And, and eventually my family saw it. My dad saw it. You know, it was, they were really, really happy. Okay. Eventually you finally signed for one of these big clubs because, you know, they bought one of you. we knew they bought one and you bought FBG finally you've signed for Manchester United so it should have been something really really you know good for the family for me and everyone connected to me but it just then quickly just turned into something crazy crazy and then of course my agent Chelsea had to then fly my agent down to to Norway so obviously Chelsea see the press conference what happens then?

12:49they were like what's going on here? call my agent John Shitu what's going on here? we've sent the player there we've been paying him, you know, little salaries here and there. You know what I mean? What's going on here? And then he said to Chelsea, okay, hold on. I'm going to sort this out. So he flew to Norway. I have no idea how he knew the hotel where I was. Came there and took me from the hotel, took me home, packed my luggages. I remember then he was carrying my luggages in his head. So we had to jump the fence. We have to go over a fence because there was so many cameras pressed outside my house.

13:24we couldn't go through the phone door we had to jump over the fence and that's how I got flew into London and were you feeling like somehow you messed up here yeah I did mess up yeah but you didn't though no but I did listen when you look at it if Chelsea you were a kid though yeah I was a kid but I knew Chelsea sent me to Oslo yeah that was the deal I was sent to Oslo by Chelsea they'd been looking after me so I had no right to then go back and sign for Manchester United but seeing that seeing that contract seeing Jim Ryan And speaking to Fergie on the phone. And seeing my club as well in Oslo saying, sign this contract.

14:00You never know if Chelsea are going to sign you anyways. This is the first contract you've received. You know what I mean? But I knew Chelsea wanted me so badly. And you could see the picture as well that's gone around. I just knew I've messed up. It's true actually. Like when you look at that picture, it's not the face of a boy thinking, this is the greatest day of my life actually. It looks like someone who's a bit like, what's going on here? exactly what's going on it's just the way it was done it was such a hush hush situation just brainwashed me into it and eventually yeah I fell into it what is stark to me as well is being a young boy from Joss in Nigeria going to Oslo you couldn't get two more contrasting environments and then this experience of being locked in a room and forced to sign what did you learn about yourself that you actually feel was beneficial in your later career from that experience?

14:56I think the mental side of it, I think the way I dealt with it, because it was so tough. Even after I came to London, Chelsea flew me to London. So I stayed in an apartment in Fulham Road. No one knew I was, so I stayed in that apartment. I couldn't play for neither Chelsea or Manchester United. Because the whole thing wasn't resolved. My United said, no, we're not letting him go. He signed the contract. He has to, he has to honor the contract. And Chelsea said, no. And how long was the contract for? It was a pre-contract. I think it was three years. Right. Something like that. So United are saying, no, he signed the contract.

15:36It doesn't matter. It's a pre-contract. It is a contract. So Chelsea said, no, it's our player. We've taken him to lane. And we've been looking after the kid for a while. And FIFA then said, he can't play for you. He can't play for my United. He can't play for Chelsea. until it's resolved. So I stayed in that apartment for about a year without playing football, without any training, nothing. So every morning I was just lying there in my room, looking at the ceiling, thinking, what is going on here? When is this going to resolve? Speaking to my agent, when is this going to resolve? He's saying, there's no news.

16:09FIFA's trying to deal with it, but United can't let you go. They said, they're not going to let you go. You have to come back to United. You have to honor your contract. And of course, Romani is saying, no, I want the player. It's our player. He has to come to Chelsea. So it took about a year. And of course, finally, FIFA couldn't get it resolved. And then FIFA now told the FA, the English FA, to get involved. And that's when it got resolved. So I got invited to London. So I was already in London. Fergie got invited to London after a year, a year, a couple months. And he said, give me 20, 30 minutes with the kid, Fergie said.

16:46I will convince the kid to come to Manchester United. He signed a contract I know he wants to play for Manchester United. So he flew into London. We went to the FA office and we were sitting in this boardroom meeting kind of room. It was a long, massive table. He was sitting at the edge of the table. I was sitting at the other edge of the table. So he was speaking to me, John Boy, come to the club. We need you. Is that what he called you? John Boy. Yeah. He said, the players want you. Everybody at the club is asking for you. You know, you signed this contract. I will make you one of the best players in the world What are they giving you?

17:24Is it more money? Please tell me I will give you more money I will increase the salary And I had my agent sitting outside So before I went into the meeting He said whatever he tells you Whatever he says Because he will try it Whatever he said Just say, just do this Just nod your head and say No, no You want to play for Chelsea And that's what happened in the meeting Again though He got you on your own Yeah He did Again, exactly he got me on my own because he said I don't want to speak to any agent I want him on his own I can try to convince him exactly what happened in Norway it was the tactics back then they tried every tactics to get me knowing that if he got me alone I will agree and I kept saying no and no and no to everything he said and I could feel the tension I could see Fergie getting even more red and red in his face this is Sir Alex Ferguson as well by the way exactly like a legend and you were having to be so strong in this moment.

18:21Exactly. And I was a 17, 18-year-old kid and I had to be strong to say no to Sir Alex Ferguson, the greatest manager of all time. Was there a seed of doubt that you're thinking I should be joining this guy? It's Manchester United, it's Sir Alex Ferguson. Of course, there's a little bit doubt there. But then when you look at it, Chelsea, been there for you, taking you to Linoslo. And of course, the special one has joined the club. They're on a different, they're trying to build something special. Fergie's already won everything. The history of the club has already been there. And for me, thinking about it, I was thinking, shall I go to Chelsea where I can build something there?

18:57You know, create a name for myself. Be in the history books of the club. That also plays in your head. But then Fergie's sitting there telling you, come to the club. What do you want? Is he my money? What do you want? I will look after your family. I will make sure your family is fine. And all that going through your head. And at some point, I thought I was going to get a hair dryer treatment. but luckily there was no hairdryers there at what point does Sir Alex Ferguson just take no for an answer? oh after 20, 30, 40 minutes and what happened? he walked out of the room shook hands with the FA president I can't remember what his name was because he was also outside waiting and then he left he flew back to Manchester United and after two days they came back with an offer saying okay I'll let the kid go or you have to pay 14 million pounds to us and 4 million quid to the club in Oslo.

19:52Yeah, and that's how it goes. Who has to pay that? Chelsea? Chelsea did. And they paid it? Yeah, they paid it. That's how Roman wanted me. That's how much they wanted me at the club. Remember, I didn't kick a ball for Manchester United. I only signed a contract. So to pay such a huge amount of money was crazy. How did that feel? Listen, it made me feel special because I know the club really wanted me to come if they could go through all this hustle and pay so much money to get you to the football club. For me, it made me feel special. There's nothing better than you going to a football club knowing how much the club, the coaches, the owner wants you at the club.

20:34You know what I mean? And that made me feel special. And once it was done, Mourinho was like, come to the club. I went to the club, seeing all the likes of DJ Drogba, you know, JT, Frank Lampard, Mike McAlealy and all these guys. And everyone welcomed me because they were all following the story. So for me, it was a massive, massive welcome. And I was so happy to have made that decision. Can I ask, though, you've mentioned a couple of times Roman and his influence from Norway, even when you then moved to the King's Road. Yeah. What was your first meeting with him? My first meeting with Roman, oh, that was, you know, roman doesn't speak much english um he always has a translator with him so uh he has he had this translator sitting with him eugene he was called a russian guy but speaks really good english um so i was sitting there just like listen i'm so happy to have you at a football club um you know this is will make you one of the best players in the world you know what i mean we we followed you all throughout your career from under 17 to under 20s and you're a special player you know we'll help to build you here at the football club and you have the best manager right now in the world which is jose marino and he wants you at the club and of course my meeting with jose was something as well special you know jose with his with his attitude with his energy back then the way he was um just tried to come you know said listen i'm happy to have you here michael and we will help you to to be the best player that you can i know you've gone through so much uh but we'll help you mentally that might still be in your head playing in the back of your head but we'll be here to support you whatever you need we'll be here to support you if you need to speak to anyone always my door will be open I'm here to support you and I'm here to make you one of the legends of this football club and how were you mentally at this point?

22:27mentally I was still all over the place mentally thinking about what happened saying no to Fergie remember I would have been the first Nigerian player to ever have played for Manchester United that's how crazy it was I would have been the first player to have ever played for Manchester a club like Manchester United so for me even when you finally do make that decision of going to Chelsea that still played in my head that still played in my head you know what I mean to say no to a massive club like Manchester United and I remember the first game we played against United I saw Fagy I almost I almost stripped over you know in Stafford Bridge so I was coming out of the door and he was coming out of the away side and saw it happen both of us like boom and you already had his chin gum in his in his in his mouth was doing it and he just walked past me he didn't say a word so i was walking down the stairs in the tunnel in stanford bridge so all the tension and i was so scared i didn't know what's gonna happen i tripped over and i was like oh okay you need to put yourself here together but it was just it was just crazy the whole thing even when i moved to chelsea mentally i was still thinking have i made the right decision or is this going to turn out to be a bad one but eventually turned out to be one of the best decisions i've ever made in my life absolutely and did you ever seek any help for the mental challenges that you were going through no no i think that that everything that happened, when I look back at it, it made me so, so strong.

24:02And I think that helped me as well when I joined Chelsea Football Club. Because walking into that dressing room and seeing all those players, those massive, massive names, the ego they had, they will bully you, those guys. You know what I mean? They will put you in your place straight away if you're mentally not strong. It was a mafia kind of dressing room. Our dressing room back then. It was run by guys that if you are not tough enough, they will just put you in your place and they will keep you there. You have to be strong. You have to. And when you talk to them today, they always said, Mikel was one kid that came straight away into the club and he didn't budge for anyone.

24:45He stood his ground. He knew exactly what he wanted. I wanted to play. I wanted to play straight away. They wanted me to sit and wait for a couple of years because I'm young. No, I wanted to play straight away. So for me, I think mentally that was something that really, really helped me. So I didn't let anyone like put me in my, no, no, no, I wanted to play straight away. But tell us, Mikel, like how did it make you strong? Because going through those experiences, for some people it might expose a fragility. But for you, it was almost like you were anti-fragile. You said you became stronger because of it.

25:17Give us some examples of how you took those experiences and it made you more mentally strong. I know joining Chelsea And I knew I had to be I had to be tough You know what I mean And going through those situations as well I think the whole situation Not being able to speak to anyone When I signed that pre-contract Not being able to speak to my dad My agent Not having anyone there Really, really Did affect me as a person In what way? In a way whereby I thought I thought my right was taken away from me. You know, I couldn't seek any advice. I couldn't do anything with anyone being around. You know, I was only 17 years old.

26:02I was only 17 years old. And thinking, how am I going to get out of this when I signed that contract? That was what's in my, how am I going to get out of this? Because I knew what the backlash will be. I knew exactly what will happen. I knew Chelsea were never going to go away. So for me, it's how am I going to remain tough here? How am I going to remain strong in this situation? Who do I talk to? There was no one I can talk to. So waking up every morning and just sitting there and waiting for news, waiting for what's next. Because I wanted to play football. That's the only thing I knew. I wanted to play football, but I couldn't.

26:35And for me, it was so tough. And of course, knowing that my agent back then as well was with Chelsea. So the advice that I was getting from him is to go to Chelsea. So there's nothing else that I got from anybody. There was no independent advice. You know, somebody is there telling you, okay, look at this. Yeah, you've signed a pre-comp, but look at this properly. Is this something that you think you're making a mistake trying to go to Chelsea or because you have your agent already telling you to go to Chelsea? I didn't have anybody in the middle to give me a clear sort of advice. You know what I mean?

27:08So for me, I was just there making the decisions on my own. And also when I said it was a mistake, again, I made a decision on my own knowing that my agent as well is pushing me to go to Chelsea. It was a difficult time. It was a really, really difficult time. But mentally, it did help me to sort of block out noises. And even when I came to the Premier League, when I had a bad game, you know, with the press saying, oh, no, no, no. How did you pay so much money for this kid? He's not good enough. For me, that helped me mentally to block out all those noises and to remain strong because I knew I had to remain strong.

27:47I knew exactly what went through. I needed a bit more time. I missed football for a year I needed a bit more time to get settled To get straight back into things So for me I knew I had to remain tough I think this is such a powerful lesson for people Because if as a 17 year old You can be put in a room and forced to sign a contract If as an 18 year old you can say no to Sir Alex Ferguson If as an 18 year old you can spend a year staring at a ceiling Unable to play, unable to train If as a young guy you can deal with The one thing that scares most people which is uncertainty. If you can deal with all of that, then you can deal with a Premier League crowd.

28:24You can deal with losing a game of football. You can deal with hostility. You can deal with an aggressive changing room or a difficult teammate. So you were almost given the evidence at an early age that you're okay. You've got the footballing ability and now you've got the mental ability as well. Exactly. No, you're right. Definitely right. And I think that's what helped me. That's what helped me when I joined the club, knowing that if I had a bad game, it was okay. It's not okay, But in my head, you know, I've seen worse. You've dealt with worse. Exactly. I've seen worse. I've dealt with worse.

28:54It's okay. I can have a good game tomorrow. So for me, it was, it made me so strong that having a bad game was, I knew, yes, I should do better. I can do better. You know, I can have my team better. But having dealt with all that, I knew, okay, it's okay. You know what I mean? It's okay to have a bad game. It's okay for people to criticize you. It's okay for you to read the newspaper and say, is he good enough for Chelsea? That's okay. because I can deal with that. I've seen worse. I've dealt with worse. So it definitely did help me in terms of my mental side. So, and even what I do today now, my mental side has always been my biggest strength is my mental ability to deal with, you know, bad situations, people criticizing you.

29:39Even when I started the podcast, you know what I mean? My podcast, people criticize me. What are you doing? You never spoke before, but now you run in your mouth everywhere. but that's okay because people have their own opinion it's my opinion and it's something that i love to do so people saying bad things about me or trying to criticize me doesn't get to me because in my early years in my early years i've dealt with that i've seen all that i've you know what i mean so that's made me so strong mentally and um yes it's my biggest strength So if there was someone listening to this then that are facing their own mountains, how do you make molehills out of them?

30:21Oh, just keep going. Be strong. Be strong because there's always light at the end of the tunnel. There's always. It's about how tough your mental aspect is. I think sometimes, you know, young players today, when you criticize a young player today, they go into their shell. You know what I mean? they start looking for somebody to talk to i just retired 10 years ago when i signed the club 15 years well i can't remember how many years it is now when we got criticized we didn't have any platform to come and protect ourselves we couldn't speak what we have to do what we had to do back then was to go back to training and put in the hard work and then come back the next weekend and perform better but today you criticize a young player he goes back home he's on his twitter he's on his Instagram saying, oh, how do you criticize me?

31:13Blah, blah, blah. You know what I mean? We didn't have that. So for me, when I look at the young players today, are they getting way too much help? Is that making them a bit too soft? Because I know what criticism helped us back then. It made us even stronger. That's what it did. It made us even stronger knowing that, oh yeah, you've been criticized this weekend, but next weekend, you're going to come out and show those guys who criticize you on the pitch, not on Instagram, not on Twitter. on the pitch, that you're way better. So for me, I think that's something that kids nowadays should learn and should be able to know that it's okay to be criticized.

31:52It's part of the game. It is part of the game. If you don't get criticized, you're not doing anything right. You have to be criticized. Let's talk then about Chelsea because everyone knows what Chelsea did, the success that you had, that Jose Mourinho had, that that amazing squad had. But the question we love asking on this show is why? Why was that such a successful dressing on such a successful team? It was a togetherness that we managed to build. I think also Jose straight away. When you walk through that door, when back then Jose signs you and you walk through that door, Chelsea Football Club, the first thing you've been taught, it's the winning mentality.

32:32The winning mentality. What is that? The winning mentality knowing that in training, you have to apply yourself properly. In games, you have to apply yourself properly. In and around the training ground, you have to apply yourself properly. You represent Chelsea Football Club. And that's who you are. There is no messing about. So all those things you have to put straight away in your head that this is a different group. You come in straight away. You try to blend with the guys. The togetherness that we had back then was absolutely fantastic. And that came from Jose Mourinho. John Terry as well, who's the leader.

33:09that straight away makes you, you know, tells you the culture of the football club. The culture of the football club is what we never forgot back then. Because the culture of Chelsea was winning games, winning trophies, being professional, sticking together, no matter what. We don't let outsiders break us, no. The togetherness that we had, yes, we can lose a game. Yes, you can criticize one of us. But we were always, always together. JT was absolutely fantastic. If you get criticized, he comes in the next day. He reads the papers. He comes and puts his arm around you and tells you, listen, it's okay.

33:45It's okay. We are behind you. I am behind you. You have to go out there the next weekend and show them what you can do. But in and around this club, we are with you. We stick with you. We will never, you will never be alone if you have a bad game. If you get criticized, you will never be alone. And that came from Mourinho, John Terry, Frank Lampard, the core of the squad. Peter Cech Ashley Cole These guys were always There to support you Can I just ask you About Eden Hazard Because I I gave him the The trophy when he won PFA Young Player of the Year I thought what a player Like what was he like To train with And play with Ah Training the worst guy The worst guy in training What The worst Ah The worst guy in training He never trained Eden Hazard never trained No Never trained No no no What would you just stand there No he just stands there I mean He doesn't even lace his boots His boots were unlatched you know he puts his hands in his pants during training he walks around he doesn't train but the man just let him get away with it but then come the weekend 3pm he wins us the game surely John Terry walks up to him and goes come on no no no what would he say if you tried to leave me alone please leave me alone you're in training yeah but then he comes at 3pm on the weekend he wins you game what do you do you can't say much he wins you the game he wins man of the match what do you do you can't say much Amazing.

35:07It's not like he doesn't go out there and perform. So if he does that, you let him do whatever he wants. Leave me alone. Does he honestly? Yeah, he does say leave me alone. I mean, he should see his pretty much meal the night before a game. He eats rice pudding. He eats chocolate. He eats everything. And we're all sitting there trying to eat like, you know, good diet to be able to perform. But he eats all that crap and goes on the pitch and he's the best player. Amazing. Unbelievable. Tell us what Jose Marino did. If you can remember any specifics. What was he doing? so that you knew these were the standards that were expected as a Chelsea player?

35:40Or just the way we trained every day, the way he walks around the place. What was training like? Our training was intense. Our training was intense. Was it? Yeah, players, players. Tell us about it. There was two, three players in every competition, in every position. You know straight away, if you don't play well this weekend, you're out of the squad, you're out of the first 11. So the competition was always there. In training, the tackle were flying. you know players think okay if i get you injured then i might be the one who's playing i don't think that's what it was but the tackles were flying in you know there was fight you know happening during training players you know yeah there was blown out like real like proper honestly yeah during training yeah during training between who for example i remember one michael balak again uh had a fight with um solomon kalou solomon kalou was a guy very quiet guy lovely lovely boy but Michael Ballack must have done something that day to really, really game off.

36:38He went off. I think we played the game. Yeah, we played the game. So it was the next day training. So players who didn't play were training. I was already inside. I think I did play the game. So I was already inside just doing a warm down and stuff. And then one of the physios riding, I was like, oh, there's a fight going on. A fight just happened. It was Solomon Kalou and Michael Ballack. And everyone was thinking, Solomon Kalou. Of all people, how did that happen? So, yeah, I just think, we don't know what happened, but I just think Michael Balak must have done something that has gotten Solomon Kalut to go off.

37:14And fists were flying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. A proper fight. They had to be separated. They had to be pulled away. And Michael, as well, when you look at Michael, he's a massive unit. And for Kalut to go up to him and square up to him and say, okay, let's have it. He must have done something really to get him going. and Solomon Kelo is a very, very good friend of mine. They call us brothers. So when he came in, I was trying to ask him what happened. He was still at it that he couldn't speak. He didn't tell me what happened. He was so angry. He got into the shower, showered and left and went home. He didn't speak to anybody.

37:49So that was how the intensity were back then. I don't know if they have that right now, you know, at Chelsea. But can I ask you like, when an incident like that happens for people outside of that world, that sounds quite shocking. But I'm interested in, how do you end up getting over that to be able to still have that powerful team spirit that you described? Oh, listen, it was competition. It was not personal. It was competition. He wanted to play. I wanted to play. So I think the next day they came back, maybe JT spoke to them and you have to sort it out. You can't have that lingering around the dressing room.

38:28And JT was so good at that. that if he could see something that's not right, a negative situation happening around the place, he's very good at that. He pulls you. It doesn't have to do in front of everybody. He calls you. He might call you on the phone and say, listen, I know what happened. I heard about it, but we need to study out. We need to move on. So I'm pretty sure something like that happened. A conversation took place between both of them. And they started it out. They started it out. After that, a couple of days, I saw them laughing and playing. We all went back to business. Like nothing happened.

38:58but as well Jose loves to see things like that because that is what creates the competition that's what brings us together when you have fights like that it brings us not only when you win games not only when we won trophies it's also things like that that happen the bad moments that nobody see that we see in the training ground in around the place how do we sort it out quickly and move on that's what brings us together yes we won trophies we were very very successful but those situations are the situations that when you deal with it come out of it and be friends again and move on these are the situations that coaches love to see it's not just the good times the bad times the bad times they want to see that how do you guys shake hands move on and compete in training and did you ever have a incident like that?

39:49of course I did I did have one with Flora Maluda who won? no it was yeah yeah Yeah, listen, straight away, I think it was during Carlo Angelotti, you know, when we played the Rondos, you know, the circle game, you know. Players are quiet, you know, we're very clever. Sometimes, you know, you have two people in the middle chasing around and then when you pass the ball, sometimes you can give a good pass or you can give a bad pass. When you give a bad pass, sometimes you're trying to set somebody up for him to get smashed. And that's what happened. And so from Malouda spoke French. I think it was to Didier Dragway.

40:28He said, give him a short pass because I don't understand French. He said, give him a short pass because I want to smash him. So Didier laid his small, a little short pass. So I went for it and I got absolutely hammered. So I stood up, I jumped up and then we both went like boom, boom, boom. And Carlo Ancelotti was standing there and then he rushed in and then we got separated. So that was the things you see. There's so many fights. I remember one as well happened with Tal Ben Naim with Shevchenko, Andre Shevchenko. But I think Tal Ben Naim got knocked out properly. Yeah, Shevchenko went fine.

41:02Again, somebody that never spoke. You can never hear Shevchenko say a word. Never spoke, never. But it just shows the competitiveness of everyone. Would that not be crossing a line though? Once you've sparked out a teammate, surely that's a bit much. It's a bit much, but that's what spurred us on. That's what got us going. we had bad times during the season. You know, when things are not going well for us, you're coming, everybody's grumpy. You know what I mean? Things are not going well. You know, the manager's trying to find a way whereby we get back to winning ways. And he's chopping and changing plays here and there.

41:37And you're not playing. You don't know why you're not playing. Everybody's in a bad mood. Things are not going well for us. Roman is asking this meeting here and there, what's happening? And then you come to training and somebody's trying to bully you. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You have to stand up for yourself. And that's what happened. It happened time and time again. There was so many fight out court because you're getting told by the manager that you're not playing well. You're getting phone calls from Roman that you're not playing well. You know what I mean? So Roman would phone you to criticize.

42:04Yeah, he did phone a couple of players. Yeah, he did phone a couple of players. The senior players he did phone. The JTs, the DJ Drogba. He's like, you guys need to get the team back together. We need to start winning again. And I don't know if that's something that happens now, But Roman was very, very involved with the squad. He just didn't spend his money and say, here you go. No, no, no. He was involved in what happens day in, day out at that football club. Day in, day out. He wants to know what's happening. So if we're not performing, he will let us know straight away that we need to fix this.

42:40We need to fix this. Otherwise, I'm going to get someone else. I remember one meeting we had where he came in and he said, listen, I don't want you guys to feel way too comfortable I have enough money to change all of you so sit up and start winning games otherwise I'm gonna go buy somebody else and Nikola Zanelka was sitting next to me and he said sit up and start winning games otherwise I'll pay you off and I'll go buy somebody else and Nikola Zanelka was sitting next to me and he said yeah pay me off I'll go he didn't so did he say it to you Walter? he said it to me yeah he wasn't brave no he wasn't brave no no I was like pay me away I go yeah so would he also come to the training ground in the good times or would he choose to kind of come and make a statement if things weren't good the helicopter comes over the horizon and you know like okay here comes no he did he did come at the good times he did come at the good times in Stamford Bridge right only at Stamford Bridge but when he see him in training something is wrong when he see the helicopter in training something is wrong he did come into into the dressing room after games you know at Stamford Bridge when we finish a game, he comes, you know, shakes hand with everybody, sits there, listens to music, watches everybody.

43:52Like, he was always involved. He stands there until everybody leaves. He's standing there having a chat with everybody, putting his arm around people, saying, what do you need? How's your family? Is everything okay? Do you need anything else? He was, for me, he was absolutely fantastic. But when you see Roman at Cobham, the helicopter landing, you definitely know something is wrong. Trouble. Oh, that's trouble. You know, the manager's getting sacked. And we're not making that up though. That was what happened. That was what happened. So once we see that helicopter landing at Cobham, the manager is gone.

44:30It happened time and time again. That's exactly what happened. So when we talk about this, people think, oh, no, it happened. And we know the strategy. And that's exactly what happened. He comes in, he's moody. You can see in his face. he says hi to you know he comes in the in the treatment room he looks at how things are going and of course when we know we're not playing well nobody smiles during the training nobody smiles in the training ground everybody's grumpy everybody's moody because of how competitive we were we know the standard that we've set and if we're not meeting that standard the place is not a good place to be starting from the chef starting from the laundry people if Mourinho sees a laundry guy making jokes and we're not winning.

45:15You tell him off. Why are you laughing? What's funny? What's funny? And the laundry guy is standing there thinking, well, I'm not playing. Yeah, well, you're part of the squad. You're part of the club. You should feel what we're feeling. And that's how the mentality was. And that's how competitive it was. And that also is what happened when Roman comes in and we're not doing well. He doesn't have a smiley face. No, he doesn't smile. He says hi to you, but he doesn't have a smiley face. and then we all leave and we go home and he has a meeting with the coach with the manager and then we see all this at home and then Sky Sport news So you would find out that managers are getting sacked from watching the TV?

45:55Sky Sport news, yeah breaking news So what was the first manager then that you remember? Jose Jose getting sacked, yeah the first time, yeah Talk us through that because this is a guy that had done so well at Chelsea he was so part of that culture what was it like the day you found out he was gone it was crazy it was crazy because we found we found out we found out again Sky Spot News so in the morning we all came in we already know so we all sitting in the dressing room everybody was sitting there and he came in and he said listen I'm sacked so I'm gonna I'm leaving it's not your fault it's just that the results weren't going our way anymore and and the club had decided to make a make a change and you could see everybody you know i remember frank was was in tears frank i never seen frank cry like frank was in tears yeah frank because frank was frank was really really close to jose jose was his uh was his man i know people think jose is close to jt but frank was his boy uh frank was his first son we call him but everybody was in tears like the dress room was was like somebody's passed away it was so quiet and he came around he shook everybody's hand but then you could feel the players that were not playing you could see a little bit of uh oh yeah a little bit of relief from the players that were not playing or now you can go the new manager is going to come in and then it's a fresh slate for everybody everybody starts from fresh and i might get an opportunity because i wasn't playing that's how the players that were not playing were thinking so but it was it was a really really sad dressing room to see jose leave because he was a special one we never thought he was going to get sacked we never thought we thought we're going to turn around um the results back then but we just couldn't what's gone wrong because you've spoken about what a great team it was a great dressing room a great culture a great manager the owner was working so where did the intensity intensity what happened jose is so intense you can have jose for max i think two years because of the intensity, the way he pushes you.

48:04He pushes you to your limit. He pushes everybody. Give us an example. So, I mean, in training, if you're not, in training, if you're not performing, Jose doesn't really care much about your personal life. What do you come and do every morning in training? How do you perform during games? That's what he really cares about. Yes, he will ask you how's your family and all that, but he doesn't want to get way too much into your family, personal life. It's the intensity of how he pushes you during training. If you, if we're doing, if we're training and you're not applying yourself well. You know, you always have players that are grumpy that are not playing.

48:37No, no, not with Jose. He will stop the training and he will say, he will use curse words, you need to get into the mood. If you don't want to train, you can go home, go sit at your house and come back when you're ready to train. So the intensity was always, always there. During games, if we're not playing well, first half, we walk into the dressing room, we're not playing well. Oh my God, you don't want to be in that dressing room. I get what you say that it toughened some players up, needed to be toughened up, but there are other ways of doing that than just deep, deep criticism that actually can break some people rather than make some people.

49:13It can, it can, but I think for Jose, that was the way he dealt with it. He doesn't know any other way to deal with it, to get the best out of players. Yes, did he cross the line sometimes? Of course he did, but that was what spurred us on. That's what got us to, even when he left the football club we already had that already inside us installing us and that helped us all through our country because even when he wasn't there when we had meetings when we were not playing well you know JT used to say listen we all remember what Jose used to tell us let's get back to that let's get back to that we need to get back to that so those situations really really did help us even when he wasn't at the football club it did help us to be able to achieve what we achieved to be so successful even when he left the football club.

50:00Yes, he can break some players. Yes, he can make some players way, way stronger. And the players like Mo Salah and Kevin De Bruyne and Romelu Lukaku, these great players today that left back then, yes, he did break them. Were they strong enough to be in that dressing room back then? No, they were not strong enough. They definitely were not strong enough because if you were strong enough, they would have stayed and made sure they found a way. But they couldn't handle it. They couldn't handle it. and Chelsea Football Club the dressing room back then was it was so tough it was so tough because players wanted to play the big players wanted to be there they didn't want the younger players to have an opportunity you have to find a way to break into that as a young player you have to find a way to break into it took me a while to be accepted as one of them and that's a really interesting point I'm interested in that difference between fitting in and really feeling that you belong Oh yeah When did that happen for you?

50:57Oh for me it took me a while It took me a while I think The game that I had I had a game I can't remember the game it was And then of course The Champions League final Was when I kind of like Okay Now he's one of us I remember Rio Ferdinand Saying the same thing to me Until he'd won the Champions League At Man United He didn't feel he could walk around Carrington With his chin up Because there's pictures of Bobby Charlton on the wall And you're nothing Compared to those players until you've also won the greatest trophy of all time. Exactly. For me, that was a trophy. That was the game. That was a trophy that made me, okay, now I'm part of this.

51:32I'm part of this institution. This is where I belong. And then the likes of JT, Frank Lampard, then you can also feel that they talk, they speak to you in a different way. Really? In a different tone. You are now part of the history, part of the club. So it took me a while. And I understood that. I understood that. And when you get accepted in a situation like that, you now feel, okay, this is where I belong and this is my club. So Chelsea Football Club became my, you know, it became my club. It became my home. And there's no better colleagues that you want to be accepted than the likes of JT.

52:12JT was, you know, JT ruled, you know, he buzzed the place. He was, you know, it was his club. Everything went through him. If a manager comes in and thinks, okay, you know what? I know you have way too much power and I don't want you to have that much power. I want to cut some of those powers. Straight away, we sense it. He senses it. JT straight away senses it. Okay, all right. I think we're going to have, there's something that's going to happen here. And eventually he wins. You know what I mean? You can't come in straight away and say, okay, you know, I know you have way too much power. Like Andres Villas-Boas, who knew us back in the day when he used to work for Jose Mourinho as an analyst, came and took over and said, you know what?

52:53You, Frank Lampard, you're not going to play anymore. JT, I'm going to, I'm going to in and out, in and out. And I'm not going to tell you why you're not playing. You can't do that with players like that. So when that happened, what did those players do to make sure that they weren't the ones that left? It was Villasperos was the one that ended up leaving. Oh, they know how to, they know how to manipulate the whole place, aren't they? It's all about manipulating the players that were playing and trying to, because when they walk in and they're not happy, it's straight away it just it just goes around the whole place you know when a player like John Terry is not playing Frank Lampard is not playing Didier Drogba is not playing they know how to manipulate the younger players the players that are playing you know what I mean with their attitude with their mood and you are playing but you're looking at the people that you looked up to they're not happy sometimes that kind of play with the whole environment and then they start negativity start creeping up you lose the game and then they're all walking the next day in the training ground and you see that they're not happy.

53:53And Villas-Boas is trying to tell you what to do, but you're looking at John Terry with his sad face, Frank Lampard standing there with his sad face thinking we should be playing. Negativity start creeping in. You know, the place is not settled. You can feel the tension. You can feel the tension. And then once it starts going bad, it starts going bad because there's no coming back from that. Because the only people that can get you back from that are those guys that you're frozen out and they're not going to help you anymore. When you go back to them to try and help, they're not going to help you.

54:20It's too late. And then you're gone. And that's how they win. It's insane, isn't it? Because the manager has to manage the club. He can only manage the club if the players allow him to manage the club. But he can't do that anymore because he's lost, he's lost the main guys in the dressing room. Those guys. It's about violence though, isn't it? Because you want to create the kind of culture you had at Chelsea where the players created this fierce, aggressive, dynamic, winning mentality. Yeah. Yeah. But if you give them that much power and that much ability to control the mood around the place, when things are going wrong, they also have that power at the same time.

54:56Exactly. To help you. Yeah. And the best person... They can make you or break you. Yes. The best person who did that was Carlo Angelotti. Explain. Carlo came in and he knew straight away. Carlo Angelotti has won everything. Massive, massive name. Came in and he knew that I need these guys with me. I have to have these guys with me. So he made friends with John Terry, Ashley Cole, Frank Lampard Peter Tech DJ Drogba a little bit but he had these guys with him these were his guys and he knew that I cannot take the power away from these guys because I do need these guys so there was a time during the season when even when we won the league things were not going well and I could remember that we had him he was when things are not going well you know we won two, three games and we lost one or two for us back then when we lose two games in a row it was a crisis it was a crisis but now he's allowed to lose two, three, four games at Chelsea.

55:47And it's okay. We'll talk about that. It's not okay. Because back then, it's crisis. So when we do that, and we lose two games in a row, and then, yeah, things are not going well. It is crisis. And then it goes in, we can hear, when you come into the training ground, we can hear there's a meeting going on. So Carlos had a meeting with the big boys. So they didn't have a meeting. And then we know that. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to say no. At Mint Mobile, their favourite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS. I made the switch because I was tired of those ridiculous bills and sneaky charges from my old provider.

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58:16Were you never in that group? No, I was never in that group yet. Why not? Because I wasn't fully, fully accepted back then. It was the likes of JT, Frank Lampard, DJ Drogba, Peter Cech. These were the backbones of the club. And these were the guys that they had meetings with. The managers had meetings with. So then when JT then comes out, then he has this group of people that he has meetings with that's where I'm sort of part of that group but the manager has maybe not a lot of people one or two three or four players that he has meetings with and then once he comes out after that meeting you can feel that the big senior players they've come out with a renewed energy and then you know and then during training they go around talking to the players you can see that So Carlo Ancelotti replaced Gus Hiddink Yeah To give us an idea of how a man like Carlo Ancelotti can change the mood around the place.

59:10Let's go from just before Guz Hidding left to the day that Carlo arrives. What actually changes? What was going on and what was different? Well, actually with Guz Hidding, I think we, if I'm not mistaken, I think we won the FA Cup with Guz Hidding. I think it was Everton we beat winning the FA Cup. So Guz Hidding was the go-to guy for Roman Abramoci. So when things are not going well and he has to get rid of the manager and he's still not sure of who is going to, who will replace the manager. His go-to guy is, he's sitting, comes in, comes the whole place, oh, what a manager he was. And comes in, gets the whole place settled and then we start winning again.

59:52He knows how to speak to players. His man management is the best. What do you mean by knows how to speak to players? Oh, he knows how to speak to players. What does that mean? Just, you know, talking to players, making jokes, you know, with the players, He's trying to get into the player's head. If you're not playing, he also wants to create an environment whereby if you're not playing, you're not sad. You're happy. You feel like you're part of the group. And that's what Goose Hiddink was really, really good at. He doesn't want to froze any player out. Some managers, if you're not playing and they can see you grumpy, they don't want to speak to you.

1:00:23They go, okay, whatever. You want to be grumpy, you can be grumpy. But Goose was not like that. Goose wants to carry everybody along. If you're not playing, he wants to be happy with you. He wants you to be happy with the squad. And he makes jokes with the staff, you know, with the physios, you know, with the cooks, with the laundry guy. He was so calm. Everybody loved when Goose was around. So Goose, I think we won the FA Cup with him. And then, of course, Carlo came in. So already the place was already calm when Carlo came in. But through the season, there was a time where we had, you know, bad situations, you know, we were not winning games and that's where those meetings happened.

1:01:01and Carlo was the best at that. You know, he knows how to bring the team together. His man management was the best, the best. You can talk to anybody that's played on a Carlo Angelotti. I don't think there's one person that will have a bad word to say about the guy. Do you remember your first conversation with him or how he made you feel? My first conversation, we had a group conversation. You know, when managers come in, they have like a group conversation, like in the dressing room. They say, listen, I'm here. I know things were not going well with the past manager or, you know, I'm not here to change much.

1:01:31I'm just here to speak to you guys. I'm going to respect you. I want you guys to respect my decisions. And when I make decisions, you're not playing. Some managers say, my door is open. Some say, don't come and speak to me because I can't explain to you why you're not playing. You have to show me in the training ground. But Carlo was like, listen, if you're not playing, you can speak to me. I will never come to you to explain to you why you're not playing. If you feel the need that you want to know the reason why you're not playing, then you can come to me. But if you're waiting for me to come and explain to you why you're not playing, I will never do that.

1:02:06It's your responsibility if you want to play. If you feel disappointed that you're not playing. Did you ever go to him? Yes, I did. Of course I did. I did have conversation with him. I think when he came in, I was playing. I was playing. So there's a time when I had a little bit of a dip and then I felt I was back at it again. But then still, I wasn't getting picked. and then I went up to him. I was like, listen, why am I not playing? He's like, listen, you're a big part of this group. I want you at the club and I want you to stay. But I just think right now, because you had that dip, so the guys who are playing, they're still doing well.

1:02:41You know what I mean? So it's going to be hard for me to just bring them out. So you just wait, keep training, doing what you're doing. I can see you're training well and I like that. Continue doing what you're doing. If a situation come by that they're not playing well again, of course you're back at this squad. But knowing me and being part of being there for such a long time, I felt like I've ended the ride that I was playing well and now I'm not playing well. And now that I feel like I'm back at it again, I want it back in the squad. But then when he explains that to you, there's nothing else you can do.

1:03:14You just have to wait. And that was the situation. You know what I mean? And you just have to continue to compete in training and keep putting in the hard work. There was no... My thing about Chelsea Football Club all my years at the club is the only place where you can show that you want to play week in, week out is in training. Is in training. And training was very, very intense. It doesn't matter what manager came in. Training was very intense. Sometimes the manager doesn't set the tone of the training. It was the players. It was John Terry. You're playing far for side, he wants to win. Whatever you're playing, he wants to win.

1:03:50he's tackling he's jumping he's screaming in training he's shouting at players if you're not training well he tells you to go in if you don't want to train if you're grumpy if you're not playing he sometimes takes responsibility and that's what the managers that come in have seen okay this guy yeah this is my captain this is my captain because if his John Terry speaks to you you have to listen I think it's really interesting isn't it that some coaches who were confident in their abilities came in and allowed the likes of John Terry and Frank Lampard to have power. Others who maybe weren't so confident tried to remove the power from them.

1:04:24How quickly did you know that maybe someone like Andreas Fias-Boas it just wasn't going to happen? Straight away. From the first meeting we knew that. No. The way he spoke we know that. What was said? That you don't think because you've been here a long time you have how did he put it? You have so much the club respects you the fans respect you don't think that's going to decide that's going to play a part of who plays and who doesn't play. So when a manager starts making those comments, then you know where the comments is going. You know who's directing it. So straight away, you know, you see JT, so every eye just goes there and then you can see that he knows, okay, all right, okay, is that straight away you want to go with this?

1:05:15Why don't you just call me into your office and have a conversation? because John Terry has had that right for you to call him into his office and have a conversation. He called out John in front of everyone. Not called out, but when you have that conversation, we know where the conversation is going. When you're saying, oh, don't feel, if you think you have been here a long time or you think that the fans, you know, are with you. So you knew the players he was targeting when he said that? Of course. Of course. Everybody knows. Everybody knew where he was going. And of course, being a young manager and coming in straight away and having that conversation, we knew, okay, this guy is not going to be here for a long time.

1:05:49Wow. He's definitely not going to be here for a long time. So how did you perceive him then? We just knew it was a mistake. First of all, to come in straight away and have such meeting. Yes, you can have a meeting. He said, listen, I want everybody to come with me. I'm going to respect everybody. You know, I'll decide who plays well. If you're not playing, you know, don't make a big fuss out of it because then show me that you want to be here. You want to be part of the squad by training and playing well. You know, that's what my listeners then say. but when you come in and start talking about power we know where you're going because we know there's only a couple players that's got massive power at the football club back then you know what I mean and it's like you're directing it to them and then you're going into training and then you start calling them out in training when they do something when they make a mistake you call them out oh JT you could have passed managers managers never do that with JT and Frank managers never they never correct them in front of everybody you know what I mean you never call them out so once you start calling them out in training.

1:06:47We start to know where this is going. You know what I mean? And that's exactly what happened. So straight away, we knew Andres Villas-Boas. His days are numbered straight away. I was surprised that Luis Felipe Scolari wasn't more of a success at Chelsea. He'd won the World Cup. He'd taken Portugal to the latter stages of the Euros. What went on there? Communication. Just couldn't speak a word of English. Great man manager. I mean, we started well. I think we started the season well. We're top of the league. we're playing so well we're scoring goals free-flowing football Deco was there as well playing so well you know the midfield was so good the brand of football we're playing but then once things start going wrong it was the communication how does he communicate with the players he didn't speak his English wasn't that great and then when you say things the players take it in the wrong way because they they didn't know what you meant by that and that's what happened I remember he called out Nicolas Anelka you know he had a meeting we had a meeting and he called out Nicolas Anelka and saying oh you have to do this you have to do that and I remember Nicolas Anelka spoke back at him in French and said don't tell me what to do blah blah blah and and you could you could tell straight away that you know that's the end of it that's the end of it if your manager comes in and doesn't and doesn't know how to communicate with the players it's tough it's difficult and that's called about Chelsea as well whereby the players wants to if you're not if they're not playing they want to get you out they want to get you out because Roman that's what Roman does if you're not winning you're gone there is no yes he gives you a chance but at the end of the day he will make a change the manager has to go so there was tears when Jose left there would have also been times when the helicopter comes over the horizon and you're like oh finally finally we've got rid of this guy exactly how he was so can we talk about the Champions League victory though because you said that was the moment that you felt you truly belonged and it reminds me of a conversation we had on this podcast with Joe Marler the England Rugby Union player who spoke about when they won the league at Harlequins it was when their head coach had been sacked and there was relative chaos at the club and he said but that actually galvanised the players where it was the dressing room that came together to enable them to win the Premier League.

1:09:12It seems like there was some parallels there with Chelsea at the time. Would you describe that time for us? Di Matteo, yeah. I mean, Di Matteo, listen, lovely guy, great guy. Knows the game, played the game. And, of course, became the manager when we won the Champions League. And, yeah, he replaced Andres Villas-Boas in a year. So, you know, he was there and then things started going wrong with Andres Villas-Boas. There was nowhere else to go. So he took over. and then we started playing well. We started winning games. We started playing well. But you could tell, like we know, we know that the character of the team back then, things were run, obviously, by the players.

1:09:58You know, Robbie was fantastic though. He sort of backed off a bit and let the players, you know, run the show. Yes, we did galvanize. We did come together. We knew that, okay, we need to pick, we need to pick the season up because players like Didier Drogba John Terry Frank Lampard they were coming to the end of their days at the club and it was the last chance saloon for us to win the the Champions League so if we had to win it has to be them and and then that season we knew okay there's so much to still play for yes we didn't have the greatest of squad but there's so much more to still play for so we came together we galvanized ourselves together Yes, not a lot of everybody didn't trust Robbie Di Matteo with his decisions.

1:10:45We didn't think he was, you know, he's that manager to tell us exactly how to get things done on the pitch. But he was fantastic with it, though. He gave us a little bit of information, not too much. And then he's like, OK, now you guys deal with it. Now I've given you the guidelines of how to go in and win this game. But now it's up to you guys on the pitch to find a way to win games. And that's what he did. And the likes of JT, Frank Lampard, they took on a bit more responsibility on the pitch, telling players what to do, screaming at players if you're not doing things well. And that's exactly what helped us.

1:11:21Yes, Robbie was there. But yes, the players did play a massive, massive part. The senior players did play a massive, massive part. If you look at the game of the Champions League that we won, you know, it was a night where we were going into the biggest game of our lives. and the night before the game, usually, you know, managers do have a pretty much, you know, meeting. You know, they show you video of how the other team play. There was no meeting like that. You know, he, the club were fantastic with this or Robbie was absolutely fantastic with this. They went around the whole place and got a video of your wife, your brother, your sister, whoever that was so close to you, that's special to you.

1:12:02And we didn't know this was happening. You know what I mean? This was a Champions League fight. We didn't know what was happening. So we all came into the room, sat down, and we were waiting for Bayern Munich analysis to come on. Hold on a minute. What's this? It was a video of every player. Every player. You know, be it your wife, your kid, whatever it was. And you could tell the players, some players were so emotional. So emotional. I go on from my younger brother. so we all after that meeting he could tell the silence in the room and we all walked out from that room saying to each other there is no way we're losing tomorrow it's not happening it's not happening even when we went down one nil down I think it was in the 80 something minute we still had the belief that we're going to come back we still had the belief that we're going to come back and then the corner kick the big man as he always does in big games get so back in it.

1:13:01But that meeting was so special because there was nothing Robbie could tell us. We knew that was the biggest game of our life. And to go in and have such meeting, you know, some players were in tears as well, crying, seeing their family members saying, listen, we're cheering for you, make sure you do it. We walked out of that meeting, you know, with our heads like, you know, you could feel the hairs, you know, your skin. Like, it was so, so special. And he, you know, Roberto Di Matteo doesn't go down in the annals of legendary Chelsea managers, right? But that's a moment where he got it absolutely right to do that.

1:13:38Absolutely right. Because for him to come up with something like that is so special. Because what can he tell us that we don't know? But he has to give us a guideline and that was his guideline of winning that game. What did John Terry say before the game? Oh, JT, yeah. Well, obviously, he didn't play. Yeah, he was suspended. But he was there. He was there. Oh, we know he was there. He was wearing the kit. Don't worry. No one forgets that John was there. Yeah, he was there. No, he was there. But he would have been in there, right? I mean, he would have delivered a message to the players. Yes, he did.

1:14:14And that's why I'm interested in this because the message when he's playing is probably very different to when he isn't. Do you remember what he said, despite the fact he couldn't impact things on the pitch? No, I said, listen, guys, I'm here. I'm here. I will always be with you on the pitch. Just look at it that I am with you on the pitch. Yes, I'm not going to be on the pitch, with you. I'm not playing. I'm sorry that I'm not going to be there because of what I did. I wish I will be playing, but I'm sorry that I can't be on the pitch to help you. But it's up to you now, guys, to go out there and win this trophy.

1:14:43Win it for the club. Win it for us. And write your name in the, you know, in the history books of this football. No club in London has ever done it. You will be the first to do it. His message was very, very powerful. You know, He was screaming. He was shouting. He was emotional. Because he knew, you know, we needed him. That was the biggest. We needed him. And then, obviously, he got the red card. We needed him. And in some way, he sort of felt that he owed us that with that speech. After that speech, we walked out. We were like, whoa, let's go. Let's go. And I think that's what helped me as well.

1:15:16Because the video from the day before and then the speech from John Terry, for me, I think that's what spurred me to have my best game. for Chelsea Football Club. So when you think about that night in Munich, what's the memory that comes to mind? Our memory comes to mind was the greatest day of the football club. For the fans, for Chelsea Football Club, for Roman Abramovich, finally he got his hands, the trophy that he really, really wanted. Because make no doubt about it, he came into that football club to win the Champions League. That's what he wanted. To win the Champions League, to be the first club in London to win the Champions League.

1:15:56And that's what he wanted. And that's why he spent so much money year in, year out, brought in the best players, the best managers to win the Champions League. And for us to finally, finally do it with such squad where you don't have our best players. John Terry was not playing. I think Ivanovic was not playing. Gary Cahill was injured for two, three weeks before that. His armstring injury. David Luiz as well was injured. It was a makeshift squad. You know, Ryan Bertrand played, you know, left wing. So we didn't, it wasn't our best squad, but to manage to be able to do it was so, so, so special.

1:16:33And you could see Roman's face after the game. You know, I remember we were walking into the hotel. He was standing right in front, greeting everybody, hugging everybody, you know, screaming. And then we passed the trophy to him and he held it and he was screaming and shouting and celebrating with the players. That was so special for me. That was a special moment of, you know, of the whole thing to see him so happy to finally win the Champions League for me was absolutely special and I love it for you as well because you know the the trauma of trying to sign for Chelsea at the beginning the highs of having Jose Mourinho winning trophies the lows of having managers you didn't get on with or being dropped or having challenges to be the guy that was there when they won the Champions League was amazing yeah for me I always said like for me it was my best game for the club and to do it in the Champions League final and to have won it for this club, for the fans.

1:17:26You know, our fans are absolutely special. And they've been crying out for it. To be able to do it at that game, you know, at their backyard, Bayern Munich, with the squad that they had. You know what I mean? For me, it was absolutely special. You know, the football club, Chelsea Football Club is absolutely special. And for us to be the squad to have done that, to have brought that success, you should have seen In the face of the fans that day, they were all in tears. They were screaming. They were shouting. It was so, so special. Something, a trophy that we've chased for so many years. You know, so many years.

1:18:02We've come so close. We didn't get it. We didn't cross over the line. We've come so close. We've made mistakes. For 11, 12 years, we've been there. Year in year, trying to win it. We won everything, you know, domestically. We've won the Premier League. We've won the FA Cup, the League Cup. but the one trophy that eludes us year in year out everyone was thinking we will never get our hands on it to have finally done in 2012 was so so special and to see our fans how happy they were and of course their owner was so so special brilliant right we've got some quick five questions to finish with

1:18:38after everything you've experienced seen and done what do you believe high performance is well high performance for me is, you know, how do you get yourself, you know, at the top of the game? For me, it's about sleeping, eating well, recovery, and get yourself at the best, you know, at the best peak of your powers to be able to perform because without that, you can't perform. What are the three non-negotiable behaviors that you and everyone around you has to buy into? I hate being late, discipline. Listen, you got to be harsh on yourself sometimes, critic. isn't it? Yeah. The greatest player you ever played against?

1:19:20Against? Ooh. I've always said Stevie Gerrard but for me obviously the greatest player that I've played against Lionel Messi. How do you stop Lionel Messi? You can't. That was your job? Yes. I can't stop him alone. I need three or four players to stop him. We never stopped him alone. We never stopped him alone. You can't play 1v1 against Lionel Messi. It's impossible. Did you believe you could before you actually played against him? No, you can't believe. What was it like the first time you went up against him and you're like wow the guy is so good when you look at him on the pitch the way he touches the ball the way he passes the ball you see Barcelona the ball flows around it goes around but the ball is waiting to hit his feet once it touches his feet everything goes around him the way he goes with the ball it's impossible for us to go into a game and say you Mikel you are going to be with Lionel Messi it's impossible it's impossible you can't Messi or Ronaldo oh it's easy it's not easy listen when I say it's easy then it means that I disrespect what Ronaldo's achieved no you can't respect what the guy's achieved he's achieved so much he's put in the hard work he's achieved so much he's lived a very good life he looked at himself he's the best professional you can ask a kid to look up to but in terms of pure class football a complete footballer not just scoring goals because sometimes people forget about people just think football is about scoring goals a complete a complete footballer it's impossible to think Lionel Messi what's the single best piece of advice you've ever received and why?

1:20:53single piece of advice I've ever received is to always know that there's always there's always light at the end of the tunnel you know you will knock you will knock into doors it's like football when things are not going your way you're having a dip of form you have to keep pushing whatever you're doing in life If you knock at people's doors, they say no to you, you have to keep knocking. You have to keep knocking at those doors. It's going to be a door that's going to open. You have to keep going because life will not come at you. No, no, no. You have to keep pushing.

1:21:32Damien. Jay. I think that was the most remarkable and insightful look inside a successful winning dressing room that I've ever heard from any footballer. And I guess, like brutal is the word that springs to mind. You know, like managers making people cry, players having fights on the training ground, needing to perform at your very best all the time or you're dropped, trying to get back into the team when you're out, the owner flying in in his helicopter to sack managers who weren't performing. But then among all of that, incredible performances, winning the Champions League, making your mark in the history of Chelsea Football Club.

1:22:06It's a reminder that we sit here and we judge footballers whilst they are trying to navigate the highest of highs and the lowest of lows in a really unique environment. Yeah, intense is the word that came to mind when I was listening to it. And, you know, he said that's what burnt out Mourinho after two years of his level of intensity. People then need to have a break from it. But for him to have existed within that environment for 10 years plus is remarkable and it's a real privilege to have got that insight. What stood out for you? Grené Brown talks about the difference between fitting in and truly belonging, fitting in is you adapt to the standards and the ways of working.

1:22:44Belonging is where you're accepted for being who you truly are. And I think Mikel offered that really interesting experience of going in there and fitting in. He spoke about that bullying culture of the standards just being imposed and if you couldn't do it, you were forced out. But then he spoke about that moment of belonging when he finally felt validated of winning the Champions League and felt that even now he'd listen to his language, my club it's our team you know he's still passionate about it years after retiring from it and I think there's a powerful lesson there for anyone that wants to create high performing cultures you're not asking people just to learn the etiquette of how we behave you're accepting people for who they really are he's a great example of someone that went on that journey what stood out for you?

1:23:29I think it was just really valuable for anyone who's a coach or a leader whether it's in sport or not about how you can lead effectively you know the fact that he said that Jose, it all went wrong for Jose because it was a burnout. The players were exhausted. Well, I think people watching can learn from that, that what works one year doesn't work the next year. You need to adapt, you need to change. I think it's really valuable about how certain managers were able to put their arms around the players or knowing which players you would be hypercritical of and which players needed a hug rather than some criticism.

1:24:03I just think it was a great lesson in leadership from someone. And I think you only get that when a player has finished their career, retired and realised that actually they've got a voice and we need to hear it. I'm actually surprised though, because I was hosting live Premier League football coverage when Mikel was playing. I never heard a word from him. No post-match interviews, never spoke, never did anything. And suddenly this guy just is like dynamite. And I thought it was a great conversation. Well, that's actually a really important reminder for all of us, isn't it? How quick we are to judge people by the cover of a book, of what we see and all we're seeing is the tip of the iceberg this thoughtful ever-die really quite emotionally intelligent man has been hiding away in full view of the rest of us so I think sometimes it's a good check and reminder for all of us that what we see isn't necessarily all there is Absolutely Thank you mate Thank you mate If you enjoyed that and you want more Chelsea chat we've also spoken to the likes of Frank Lampard Graham Potter Danny Drinkwater and Petr Cech about life at Chelsea, along with loads of other former and current footballers.

1:25:10From myself, Damien and the whole team, thanks for listening. And don't forget, you can also watch these conversations on YouTube.

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