Joleon Lescott Exclusive: From Near-Death Experience to Premier League Champion (E270)

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance App. Available now, Roman Kemp, the broadcaster, opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health. I heard that word relatively young and it resonated with me. Accountability. I think everybody knows if they're cheating themselves. I think everybody knows that. So deep down, whatever it is, whatever field you're in, you'll know if you're doing the right thing. Deep down when the lights go off, I could do them more. The car wasn't stopping so then she stepped back, I stepped out and then it hit me and pretty serious to be fair for my family, mum and dad and they were told like you might not make this tomorrow.

0:42Coma for a while and hospital for months. The noise, I'll never forget the noise. I don't even know how you get to that noise or what that noise is. just happiness because I knew what it meant to so many people. That is former footballer Jolian Lescott and this is High Performance, the show that unlocks the minds of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jake Comfrey and alongside our expert Damien Hughes, we learn from the stories, struggles and successes of our guests, allowing us all to find high performance. And you may well have heard of Jolian Lescott. You may well know what he did as a footballer, but I don't think you know the story behind how he got there.

1:26This is such an interesting conversation, so let's do it as we welcome Jolian Lescott to High Performance. But first, a few messages from our valued partners. Before we get going, just to let you know that you can now enjoy a free trial of High Performance Plus, where you can get early access, ad-free content, exclusive masterclasses, and High Performance originals. Just download the High Performance app from the App Store. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast.

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3:38Jolion, my friend, nice to see you. Good to see you. Looking good. Tanned up as well? Yeah, that's a bit of fake tan, just for the cameras, you know. welcome to the show we've spoken about getting you on this show for so long yes so you better bring some good stuff profile finally big enough to get me there we're running out of guests yeah exactly that's the problem what is high performance to you? oof I'm going to say performing at your maximum for a long duration of time and dedicating large aspects of your life to get the best out of yourself, whatever field you're in. And yeah, that's the way I would describe it.

4:22And how much do you think that your mentality is the reason why you had such a brilliant playing career of hundreds of games? And how much do you think it was your physical abilities? Definitely more mentality. I think mentality keeps you going. Physically, I was, yeah, advanced from an early age and I could compete, but there was players with less physical or more and not being successful due to their mental ability and capabilities. And I see the mental side of the game as an attribute, a real attribute, like pace. But because you can't see it, it's not valued the same. So people talk about, say, Mario, like exceptional talent.

5:09And people say, but if he was mentally a bit more focused, I was saying, yeah, I understand that. But you never say to someone, if he was faster, it'd be world class. Just never described the same way, is it? But the mentality of any profession, but especially football, is a real attribute. That's a very interesting observation, actually, isn't it? That we talk about mentality like it should be better for everyone. We don't do that with the physical attribute. If you say to someone, mentally be better, you expect it to be changed like that. that yeah but if you said to me be faster you wouldn't expect me to be faster tomorrow you'd give me a period of time and there's going to be a maximum level of capacity i'm going to be able to get to where when it's a mental side of it we just expect it to be done now i've told you not to be late again so you never be late again no he doesn't have the capacity to organize himself to never be late again he may not be late for two weeks but in the third week he may be late again and it's just understanding that.

6:09Was there a time in your career when you felt you'd reached your limit in terms of physically, what you were capable of?

6:20Probably a 7-8 season, I think. I was at Everton and I'd just changed my diet, went gluten-free and probably that wasn't really as glamorous as it is now. There wasn't aisles in the supermarket. There was little odd bits. And I was as strong as I felt I could be. I couldn't really put weight on. And I was as good as I'd, like, physically, I was as good as I'd felt more often than not. Like, every player will tell you, you're never 100%. And I was aware of that. But I was at my peak physical condition. I was recovering faster. So I'd probably say around that time, I felt physically as dominant as I was.

7:04And is that when you then decided to invest in the mentality? No, I think the mentality was there before. Okay. Because up until I got injured at 21, I was playing on talent. So I was talented and physically I could do whatever and tactically I was okay. So I was never, there was always going to be someone who's better than me, but not of all the things I valued as a footballer. It was only Louis Saha, that's why he's the best player I played against. because everything I thought I was good at, he dominated me in a game. So I was like, oh, I'd never experienced that. Like if someone was faster, I was quicker.

7:41I was stronger. Someone was stronger, I was more technical. So there's always something but him. And how old were you when you came up against Louis Saha? I was 20. No, I wasn't. I was 18, 19. So he helped me become a better professional then. So the training methods changed and then I got injured and then my diet changed and that's when I became a better professional. but up until that I was just playing on my talent. I'm really interested to dig into this game then against Louis Sarr. So you're 18, you've come through the ranks, you've made it into professional football. I would imagine things, it's never easy but relatively easy because of your natural ability and your talent and your hard work and application.

8:19What is it like then to suddenly have your ass handed to you in a game of football? Oh, it's embarrassing. Yeah, so what had happened was, again this was before you could actually analyse video wise it was like Sports Argus it was like the pink paper and you just had to look so he was playing for Fulham they were top of the league first 10 games and won them all I think they'd averaged 2 or 3 goals he was the man everybody knew Louis Sire was the man and this was like my first full season so we played them at Molyneux and I know this is going to be a tough game so I'm prepared for this we go out it's 0-0 and I get mad at the match fast forward three weeks we're playing him in the cup so I'm thinking that wasn't that tough three weeks ago so maybe it's going to be the same but now he must be thinking oh that's the first person that's stuck to me from scoring I need to show him and he showed me he showed me he scored two goals he scored a free kick and a pen one with his right foot one with his left foot him and Bermote were up front and then the ball come to him and he flicked it with the outside of his right, ran left, and I was just like, oh, there was just so much going on.

9:30He was playing, obviously, one at his peak, but he'd upped his level, and I thought, yeah, I hadn't experienced someone that was better than me, everything I thought I was good at. Because what interests me now, then, is that post-period afterwards, because you can, it's that saying, you really see someone's character in adversity. How did you handle that? After, I was so embarrassed, because it never happened. You'd have bad games or like, even when I played against, say, the top Messi, Ronaldo, you know they can do something. So you kind of don't dwell on that. Like if they want to decide the game, they decide it.

10:07And like that was the first experience I'd had of someone, like me not making a mistake, them just literally owning me. So I'd never had that in every area. And then the manager, Colin Lee, was like, keep your head up. Like this game won't define you. And I was like, yeah, it won't. I'm just going to, now I know there's another level. Now I know there is another level to go to. I need to see if I can get there. So you were inspired by it rather than derailed by it? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, okay, so now I need to be faster. I need to be stronger. I need to think about it differently.

10:38I analyse it a bit quicker because if there's someone like that in the championship, everyone's like that in the Premier League. So, and then, yeah, it just, it definitely motivated me. But how did you avoid the trap of becoming a big fish in a small pond? You know, like, so far you're cruising through, and I can imagine it could be easy to adopt a little bit of complacency or arrogance or stop being willing to listen. No, again, I had good people around me that I allowed to challenge me. So that was never going to happen the way I was brought up with mum, dad, brother, and sister, and I was never going to get carried away.

11:18so that wasn't a thing but in regards to like my coach TC was like the biggest influence on me Terry Conner as a coach and football influence he used to challenge me all the time like to the point of where I couldn't stand him and we're really close and like I have so much respect for him but I used to think I'm going to prove you wrong that was my motivation and funny because fast forward to when I retired he did a podcast for Wolves and he was talking about me and he was like, I knew from the first time I'd seen him, he was going to be a professional or I'm going to push him because I know he wants to be a footballer.

11:57He wants to be a professional. And I was like, TC, man, if you would have told me that, I already knew you couldn't break me before that. Like I was determined to be a footballer. So we could have had a better relationship if I would have known they were the reasons you were challenging me all the time. So what did you think he was? I think he was on me. Like obviously, Do you know him? Yeah, well... Do you know of him? He was Mick McCarthy's system, wasn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a period of time when I thought he was racist. Really? Yeah. I thought, why is he just singling me out? And there's everyone else, and he's just souling me.

12:30Even though he's black? Yeah. And I'm thinking, why is he just picking on me? I'm thinking, why is that a thing? And like, I just used to... I used to go home and complain, and I said, is he physically abusive? No. Well, just get on with it then. What, you were telling your parents? Yeah, I would just be like, why is he just, I mean, he used to call me the chancer. Because I used to take a risk in a game and he used to wind me up. But that has negative connotations, doesn't it? Yeah, he used to, oh. Almost like you don't care. Yeah, he used to wind me up and he knew it would wind me up. And then like, there were times when I would do sessions and it would just be me.

13:02He'd just say, come on, we're going outside to do an afternoon session. I'd be like, why am I just the only one doing this? Why does no one else need this? But I would never say that to him. Yeah. But that would be my thought process. And it was obviously to develop me as an individual. But just take us into your childhood home then, because I love that little snippet you said there of the only question your mum and dad ask is, is he being abusive? No. Well, get on with it. Do what you're told, yeah. I think that was our generation though, isn't it? You wasn't allowed to answer back to adults.

13:30Yeah, but I'm intrigued as to your own parents' stories to how they recognise that what you're learning is resilience rather than sort of making excuses. I think, again, that generation are definitely geared towards that. Everything is built for resilience or towards resilience. But also my brother played, so they was aware that it's not an easy environment to be in football. People just think it's glamorous. But them years, them first three or four years, it's quite intimidating. And if you're not built for it, going from that to a first-team dressing room, soul destroying like seen many a people many a young man adult adults crumble under that so again they were aware that that's kind of life like again it's your bus tells you to do something you have to do it yeah that was the way I was brought can you tell us then what uh what year are we talking about here then when you would have first gone into an adult dressing room like 2000 I was 17 2003 yeah so what's that 10 another 4 yeah nah nah I was 82 I'm born so 92 and then there 97 96 97 so late 90s so take us into a a first team dressing room in the late 90s oh yeah that was that was different that was that was a little bit different yeah there was a lot of stuff that um wouldn't be getting done now so I remember one of the players um Steve Sedgley like he was the joker of of the pack and I was lucky enough because like most teams when a young lad comes through they all want to help and support you and I like I had that so I never felt necessarily intimidated to being in there as a young kid or threatened it was just I'm 17 and these are like old you know what I mean these are real adults but yeah Sej was like I remember one of the first times I used to come and just sit there and not speak or not do anything and then he's come out of the bathroom and he's going I've just done a massive massive poo like I've gone why would you tell something why are you telling people that he's going come and have a look I was going nah I'm alright and I come and have a look or I'll bring it to you I was like huh and then he was sitting there one of the old players I think it might be Neil Emblam he was sitting there he went no you need to go in there because if he'll bring it to you and he'll put it right on your lap I was like yeah He's like, go in there.

16:08So I just ran into the toilet and had to look at this man's poo. What was that about then? I don't know. I just bantered that generation of player I had that was different. Remember, he played with Gazza as well. So there he was on another level of... Were they testing you as well to see whether... Probably, yeah. Probably. But I think it was just a general thing. I don't think it was specific to me. Sure. And did you have those initiations that you... No. No, there were certain things that, again, probably because of the way and where you grow up that don't happen and they can read that. What do you mean by that?

16:43So those like jokes like even in the youth team so say like lads would joke about partners and mums and I never did that. Like I never did that so that's not an option for you to do to me. Like I can have a joke and it can be fun. Don't mess with my clothes. Don't comment about... And you were setting those standards and those boundaries Even at 17 years old. But that was set from school. Them things, for me, you say them things at school, we're fighting. People fought at school for them things, so I only knew that. I didn't know you can say that to me and be laughing about it and joking. You said something about someone's family at school.

17:23That was a fight. Can I ask you about... Because I wondered about this when you were a young boy coming in. You know, the obvious scar on your head. And I thought, coming into an environment like that, that's an obvious target for people. Like, right, that's different. Let's take the piss out of that. Yeah, no, that didn't happen. That didn't happen in football, to be fair. Fans-wise, yeah, but never from a player that I played with ever questioned it, ever said anything. Okay. I don't even know if everybody knew. They even ask about it? Yeah, no, there's a couple. A couple of close friends and players that I asked when I was young.

18:01but as you get older I think it's documented then so it doesn't need to be said or I don't need to detail it but yeah as a young one but no none of the first team players ever said anything or targeted me for that that would probably would have yeah that could have broke me and you and I have worked together for the best part of 10 years I still don't know what yeah yeah because we would it's not a thing yeah it's not a thing but what was it? so I got run over when I was 5 coming out of junior school and it was Red Nose Day so I come down and then go across the road and the lollipop lady stepped out so I'm on her right and she'd obviously put the pole out the car wasn't stopping so then she stepped back but I've stepped out and then it hit me and yeah I was that was it really pretty serious to be fair for my family mum and dad and they were told like you might not make this tomorrow so So, yeah, it was pretty intense.

19:03I was in a coma for a while and hospital for months. I think I got six months I was in hospital. Really? Yeah. I only found out recently, my mum, because obviously it's still upsetting to my mum. So even to now, the date it happened, she phoned me and made sure I'm in the house. Oh. Yeah, she still phoned me and said, are you home? I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. And what about the effect on you?

19:30yeah so again I don't know I don't like obviously physically you can see but what I do remember was there was a a guy in the bed next to me no scars just had a tube it was out out cold and no scars I was like yeah he got hit by a car I was like why is I'm bandaged up and got balloons reconstruction and all that stuff. And a van, a wing mirror off a van hit him in the head as he was standing on the curb and he was brain damaged. So when I realised that was a possibility, I took the scars. I took them all day. Do you remember anything about it? About getting run over? No, not really. Again, it's more, my mum remembers, she was like literally opposite.

20:21I was literally crossing the road to get in a car. So she remembers that. but I remember after and growing up and scars. Tell us about the growing up because you're going into your adolescence with a very obvious scar. How did you handle that? Football was a big thing because I can get teased but then we're going to go into the playground and I'm going to be the guy. I'm one of the guys so I could compete and I had an older brother who could play as well so it was never a thing where it was a constant thing. Yeah, if it was something new for someone to see, they may reference it. But then all of a sudden, my friendship group wouldn't allow that to be a thing.

21:08Like, I've never had to tell anyone. Like, I'm sure it's the same with you. Like, someone can say something to you, but to say something to your mate, it feels different, don't it? Yeah, yeah. You get probably a bit more protective. And that was the case, and that's always been the case with my friends. And did it develop a resilience that actually was really valuable as life progressed? I think it's developed something different to the resilience, more of understanding how I felt when someone would reference it. So I would never want someone to put someone in that position and for them to feel the way I felt, even if it was for 20 seconds.

21:46So that's probably the bigger factor than the resilience. so like I know I was aware that being teased is hurtful so things you say to someone can really hurt them forget I know sticks and stones and all that stuff and it's a bit of light hearted fun but it's a real thing so I'm aware that that being referenced to me was so hurtful I would never want to cause that to someone because again I think I'd rather you be I'd rather you fight me Yeah. Then reference that. Obviously now I'm more mature, but growing up, that was the way I... There's a really interesting distinction. We've had this chat with a few people, including Dr.

22:30Pippa Grange on this, around the conversation that often gets accepted in sport, it's banter. And we've made the distinction of banter relies on excluding somebody. I'm making you feel shit. Whereas humour is including you. We all know what the joke is, and it's relatively benign. do you feel that that experience then meant that you were a bit more detached from that banter environment no because i could get involved i would just believe that if listen i was involved in banter but it was in the circumstances that i would allow you to banter me i would never overstep my boundaries to you because i don't want that to happen so even Even though I may be able to dominate someone physically and if you did reference family members, I could fight them.

23:19So it doesn't become bullying? Yeah, no. But I'm not going to do it to you, even though I probably could and you couldn't do anything about it. But that's not that. It's like, okay, if I've said don't do it to me, then I'll do it to you. What about the fan criticism? How much did that hurt? Yeah, that was hard. That's why I probably am so close, not just for the titles, like City fans. That's probably the affiliation with City fans is probably as strong as any club because the song they sing for me or song for me still sing now and again when I see them but was in comeback to Liverpool fans because again Everton City like Liverpool fans were always personal towards it and used to reference it every time I played what would they say it was like Jordan Lescott got bit by a shark so that was the reference that was the song they would sing but the first time they sung it when I was at City City said that they sung that and it was like Jolene Lescott's top of the league so they sung the same song but we used the words Jolene Lescott's top of the league because we were top of the league and it just like that is it they never sung it again and how did that feel?

24:28yeah that was like that and I don't even know if a lot of City fans know that that's why I admire them so much for creating that just off the back of what Liverpool fans were singing yeah that's amazing yeah that is so when I hear it now it's still and even when I hear fans say it to me and they just think it's because we were tough in the league I'm like nah it means more to me than being tough in the league does it make you a bit emotional thinking about it yeah sometimes yeah yeah again but it's it's nice to know that you can have that and I think you know football fans get such a bad rap yeah yeah yeah so I think it's really important to mention yeah good fans when they do something that really makes a difference to someone yeah I think we do that with everyone don't we like we categorise everyone footballers fans as we've got to this point should we talk about Manchester City such an important part of your life now such an important part of your playing career what was it when did you first know that Manchester City were interested so I went there in well the summer of 2006 it was just before the summer there was interest but I was quite superstitious as a player not quite so it was like I don't want to talk about certain things till the season's over so my agent made me aware but I was like I'm not interested in having them discussions just yet because like Everton we were doing well and we had an FA Cup potentially so I was like I don't want to be distracted about potentially leaving if that is this could be my final game so again after then it was like I was made aware that he was going to they were going to come in and stuff like that so I just had to wait really and be patient and very patient and then yeah I was aware before I went back to pre-season there was interest and they'd made an inquiry So it wasn't done quick then?

26:24It wasn't? It wasn't done quickly? No it was like I didn't go till I think it was last week in the window but I knew they'd contacted them in June and I just had to wait and go in but I also knew that you can't not go in and not train and like if they're by me they're going to expect me to be fit so I needed to be fit as well so it wasn't a case of like I can down tools in any way yeah it was like I definitely wanted to go and made David Moyes aware that I wanted to go but it wasn't like I'm not coming in So how did you do that then? I used to go in every day I used to go and see him every morning and say like the first one was the hardest because I was like this is an uncomfortable conversation I didn't want my agent to be calling him saying this, that, and the other.

27:12I was thinking, if I'm wanting this to happen, I've got to be a man and got to go in there and have this discussion. And that was like, oh, intimidating. So I went in there and just said like, Kaffa, I'm aware of this interest. And if it's an opportunity to go, I just want you to know I want to leave. And he's like, yeah, but they haven't contacted us. So, okay. And he sat there in silence. And I was like, ooh, that's the end of the conversation. so left and then left trained spoke to my agent after he's like that's not true but it's not entirely true but okay so I had to wait to develop a bit more then I was going in constantly and be like no I know this has happened I know that's happened so he's like no you're not going I was just like what you've always said to us that if a player come in and said to you he wants to leave you'd let him go he said yeah I know but no I was like what like I said, Gava, what if Man United come for you?

28:10You're going to want to go? You're going to go? He's like, yeah, but no. I was like, my career isn't the same as a manager. I like it shorter. This is an opportunity for me. And he was like, no, it's not happening. And then after that, I wasn't allowed to train with the first team. And that's one thing that was hurtful because it was deemed like I was a bad professional. One thing I wasn't, I wasn't a bad professional. I might not have been the greatest player in every team I've played for, but I was definitely one of the most professional players and to be made to go and train on my own and do that stuff.

28:44And yeah, that was hard. And why was it so important for you to go and have the conversation yourself as opposed to letting your agent do it or intermeeting this? No, because I wanted it to be that. I wanted it to have that impact of, yeah, that was the way it was done. Like my agent's going to deal with all the stuff but the conversation that needs to happen. I think it's harder for anyone not him, me, you to lie to someone in their face and everyone's braver when you're talking about someone to someone else you know what I mean so as much as he may not want me to go I'm sure it was a more calmer delivery and approach saying it to me than it would have been to my agent you know what I mean so again I just wanted to have that and I felt it was right like I don't want to be saying to my agent, I want to leave and then he comes to me and I'm not saying it to him.

29:40It's not really right, is it? And what were your teammates in the dressing room like at that time? No, they were fine. They were fine. Because what everyone or fans don't always realise, and my scenario is no different, nothing happened any different from me leaving Wolves to going to Everton. It's exactly the same thing. It's just a bigger scale. Most transfers are. So the players were aware I'm going to leave. And where we were with Everton wasn't any more important to what Wolves wanted to do in terms of promotion. So it was the same scenario, just a different scale. Obviously, it was deemed different because it was the Premier League and the value of the transfer was higher.

30:24But yeah, the players understood that if he wants to go and compete because that's what they're trying to do, then yeah. but if I don't go I was not going to try I was still going to try because again it's only going to be me that's going to be it's going to affect and the day that you walked into the Manchester City dressing room what did you find?

30:51obviously I knew a lot of them we'd been in England squads and stuff so I knew a high percentage of them but yeah it just it felt like I wasn't then working towards a move even though we weren't competing for the title just of yet the calibre of player was a little bit different no disrespect to the Everton squad at the time but like we were signing some of the best players in their position at Everton we were a group developing that and we were very competitive and I think City finished above us by the time I was at Everton but in regards to the players that were signing like Kolo Torre was an invincible do you know what I mean it was like Gareth Bray was a Villa captain and then we Carlos Tevez and we were signing like players from the teams that we were trying to emulate and trying to the level we were trying to get to so yeah it was just it just felt like okay now I can be here and we can genuinely compete and so people outside of that bubble when you like when we hear that these players are on another level what's the biggest difference is it like their speed of thought or is it just professionalism It's everything.

32:02And it's not always everything for every player, but every player has something that is different. So, David Silva is not the fastest player ever to play the game, but his ability to receive the ball in an area that no one else can is not even explainable. like he can do stuff and obviously he must see the game at a speed that no one sees and I had a belief I had a different level of belief I think that comes from playing at United and playing at Barcelona and winning stuff Arsenal like you're an invincible it's going to give you a level of confidence that other players may not have so yeah they had that and he said we all had a motivation of winning like it was great because at the time everyone was deemed when you're going there for money.

32:54Every player's going there for money. Did you get that criticism? Oh, yeah. Everyone did. That was the only reason. The only reason every player joined Man City at that time was due to money. That was the only thing we was joining for. And what was the reason? Well, that was, obviously, that was the reasons outside of the group. But we were... Carlos Tevez does not need any more money. Like, didn't need any more money at that time. He was coming there because he loved football and he wanted to compete. And that inspired us. But how was it sold to you? What we're seeing now. Literally what we're seeing, I met the chairman.

33:29So now I'm allowed to speak to them. I went to the hotel, met the chairman. And he's saying to me what we're seeing now. And I was like, oh, that seems very ambitious. So what did he say? Like literally the size of the club, going to dominate domestically. Like so convincing, like he'd seen the future. and I was like over the next 10 years we're going to dominate we're going to be the most successful team in this period we're going to challenge we're going to get the best players we're going to compete then we're going to push on to Europe and I was like sounds unreal that I'm not sure it's going to happen in that time frame but I definitely believe what he's saying and literally has gone to what he said but he was so adamant it was happening it was crazy wow yeah that was impressive so Mark Hughes was the manager and how long did he manage you for?

34:19He managed me I think he left around Christmas time and you joined him in the summer I joined him in the summer yeah and then again he'd left and it was a strange one because I think we were second we'd just beat Sunderland we had a game in hand and three points behind so we could have gone like top and then he left and then Mancini came and that that hit the squad hard because he took a lot of shit from outside accumulating that squad and he defended us all, Mark Hughes. So the players had a lot of respect for him. So probably more than Mancini and Pellegrini because he'd assembled us and he'd defended us and been in the front line.

35:05Whatever bullets were coming, he was shielding us away from them. So yeah, he had a lot of respect from the group as a player, a player group, so that hit us hard.

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37:09But you must have been excited about Roberto Mancini. No, no. I was more excited about Marc Hughes. Marc Hughes had signed me. Marc Hughes had made me the guy he wanted to sign. He could have signed anyone and he wanted to sign me. So I owed him something. And I was injured at the time as well. I'd just got injured. And then Mancini came in. But again, I wasn't going to not give him maximum effort. But I knew straight away that relationship wasn't going to be. oh why it was comfortable he didn't want me he didn't want me to how did you know because he tried to not play me a few times but again but one thing I would give him credit for a little bit of credit for in terms of that was if the other player didn't perform then he would put me back in and then I knew I had to perform but he made me feel I had to be better than everyone in order to play where everyone could just if they was at a certain level they would stay in the team but then I had to be above that level How did you get on with him?

38:15What did you make of his management? He didn't really get on because again I think I felt it was personal some of the things was personal like so trying to think like yeah when he first covered he said to someone I can't select him because his calves are too small my right calf which is the side of my knee, which is always a little bit smaller than my left foot. I was like, so I didn't, he didn't select me for like three weeks. And I'm like, granted, that's not a thing. But even if it is, tell me. I can try to make it bigger, like to the level that you need it to be. So don't, going back to me going in to see David Moyes and telling him direct.

39:02So we know there's no miscommunication. Like, tell me, don't tell someone else that may tell me three weeks after you've told him. and I've missed three games now because you've got this theory and I'm just like, it doesn't need to be that. Like, I am professional. Like, again, you may not want me to play in your team because I may not be good enough if I can take that, but just allow me to be professional. And I kind of wanted that back, but there was things that... Not just for me, just the group. I just felt like... the level of player he had overrid his management. He got away with a lot more because he had some top, top players.

39:53What do you mean? So, like I said, in terms of his management, it wasn't great. It wasn't ideal. Just things that we did were based on his superstitions, which wasn't detrimental because you've got a Yaya Toure, you've got Sergio Aguero in their prime, Vincent Kompany, they all win you the game. But when it doesn't go that well, that's when you can see it more visible, you know what I mean? So again, I think that was when he left was kind of the back of that. It was like, now lads can see. You're not our, you don't have our best interests at heart. Like Nadam Anoua, he didn't get on with Nadam either.

40:38and his reason for not wanting to select Nadim was he didn't think he was quick enough and the doctor literally had to say to him you need to pick another reason because he's the fastest we've got like Nadim was a, like ran for the country in 110 metre hurdles, like he was lightning so you've obviously just got that concept in your head that he's not quick enough and you're going to use that not to select him but I'm saying you haven't had that discussion with anyone and that's just something you believe in. Yeah, I just... Would you tell us a little bit around man management? Because we hear so many players talk about it's not necessarily the most tactically adept managers that they go on to respect.

41:21It's the ones that they feel understand them. What's been your experience of a good man manager? Treating someone how they want to be treated, not how you want to be treated. So, again, understanding that. you saying to someone to have a day off individually. You've got something that you need to attend to that maybe you're going to get a different level of effort because you're going to have a different level of respect for you. But then challenging someone and them having that relationship for you to criticise, to know that you can come back. So it's just treating everyone. And you can't treat everyone as individuals all the time, but it's just understanding the individual.

42:01That's what I would describe as my management. It doesn't have to be, oh, he has to eat this, he has to eat that, and everyone's got 20 different meals. It's just more of, well, these are the options, rather than this is what we're doing. And then you pick an option that suits you in regards to how... There's obviously certain things that we all have to do. We all have to be on time and all that stuff. But again, if after a day, if after a game, I want to come in in the morning after the school run, but someone else needs to sleep. It's understanding that, yeah, there's two times that you can recover here.

42:39There's one in the morning and one in the afternoon. Make sure you're at one. It's only going to be one or the other. And it's understanding that where I don't know if there's a... It's probably different now. I think there's more flexibility with coaches, but I don't think there was as much flexibility. And who was the best man manager that you experienced? Glenn Hoddle. Glenn Hoddle was the best manager. Every footballer that played under Glenn Hoddle said Glenn Hoddle. Glenn Huddle wasn't even, it's not even close. Like, and not just my management, just of his coaching, just the way he spoke about the game and the way I understood it, what he was saying, it was like so clear.

43:15No one had, no one had had up until that point, I was 21. But no one after that had spoke about the game. And for me to understand it in the way he spoke about it, I'd just like, ooh, that's like detail, like details of, I remember when I was watching him coach, the winger, and he was telling him how to dribble at the defender's back leg. And when he sees this movement, then you move the ball that way, which will nullify the way he can run. I was like, oh, so if you're telling him that, that must mean I must have to defend it a different way. So then it would just make me think about defending more.

43:52So he just had details that would help positions. But I would just use them to, okay, well, if he's told him to do that, I must have to do the opposite kind of thing as a defender. So interesting. But winning the league? Again, it's different because it's not something you grow up thinking you're going to do. I didn't grow up thinking I'm going to win the Premier League. You just, hopefully, become a footballer. Like I always say, growing up, I thought I could, the FA Cup, because that was visible to everyone. Everyone competed and everyone watched that. But Premier League wasn't an ambition until you get into the Premier League.

44:26And even when I got there, I didn't think I was going to win it. and then you go to City and then it's like, oh, now we need to think about winning it kind of thing. So it wasn't until two or three seasons before you're actually achieving it that it was a real goal. Right. Because it's just not a realistic goal. Was there a moment in the season where you believed it would happen? Because obviously it happened so late. Oh yeah, way before that. I think before, not that we believed we were going to win, believed that we could win. When was that then? The season before when we won the FA Cup. and we beat United in the semi-finals that was a big thing for us as a group as a club because they had lost I think they had won like 13 out of 14 semi-finals on the Cyrelics and then we beat them and then we went on and that just gave us a platform to think now we can compete and then we come back start the season and what was good was we'd played all pre-season we beat everyone and we played some top teams like like Inter Milan and like Eto 'o.

45:31And I think it was when there was around the time they won the treble and we beat them comfortable. And we were thinking, oh, we're all right. And then we play United in Cherry Shield and they beat us 3-2. That was a blessing in disguise. Best thing that ever happened to us because then it just kind of refocused us. And we went on a great run at the start of the season. I think we were unbeaten in like 12 or 13 games. And that just gave us a belief that, not that we couldn't lose, but because at no point did we think because we were going to go through the season without losing. But we knew we were tough and we knew we had a different level of, whether it was fear or respect from our position, because there wasn't one element of our team or our game.

46:11And again, this is why I'll probably give Mancini credit. There wasn't one element of our game that we would rely on. We could defend if we needed to as a team or as a back four, or we could attack as a team and could just let the forwards or let the forwards attack. So everyone played a role and it wasn't a case of, oh, one, oh, they're only good at that. If you get them into this, if you, like, say, if you went long, go long. It's like, we're all six foot. So then let's go long. And then we'll knock it down to Gafbrary and Yaya Toure. We can then do whatever they do. So again, we were just, we were very aware of where we were at.

46:50When we were lucky enough to speak to Kolo, he told, we asked about this idea of belief and he said for him the mentality is you run it from minute one game one so you're not waiting towards the end of the season to turn up for the big performances that's what he felt championship mentality was that you start as you mean to go on was there ever a moment like that during that season when when you thought this was a a level of both what you'd experienced previously I think it was just the start of the season I think it was just a belief going into the season I would say the game we played at Spurs two games at Spurs we beat them 5-0 I think Edin scored four and I think that was a big shock for everyone really because no one was really doing that Spurs weren't average never been average and we went there and give them a good going over kind of thing so that was a big thing and then one game at Blackburn we won 2-0 but I don't ever remember a game before or after being so comfortable.

47:57It just felt like they'd accepted they were losing 2-0. Please don't make this any worse kind of thing. And like I never, that must have been what say United must feel like and over the years of their dominance and stuff like that where that was a real kind of, oh yeah, we could literally, some of our players could have literally put their kick back in the skip and wore it next week. Do you know what I mean? it was like that easy for some of them and again, they were probably the two games in that season where I thought that's different. But then as it got towards the end, you almost started to sabotage it.

48:29Yeah. What do you think was happening there? Nothing. I just think it was Man United was able to lift their level. I don't think we went on a ridiculously poor run. I might be wrong. No, no, you didn't. I think they just upped their level and you had to recognise that they were used to doing that. That was like when they dial it up. You never felt the pressure, the expectation, the fear, the enormity? No, because we hadn't achieved it yet. So it probably still wasn't as magnitude as it comes after that. Like the second time it's kind of... You were naive. Yeah, innocently naive. And it's not a negative.

49:12It's probably like some players need that and some players need that level of pressure, like, no, I'm going to be the guy to perform their best and whatever that is, whatever you need to motivate yourself, then use it. What did you need? My teammates. I don't know, I kind of was level. I never got too high or too low. I'm sure I remember you telling me once that you'd always get this moment of flow in the build-up to a game. Yeah, man, that feeling. It would come at various times. it was like it was like a level of excitement or nerves I don't know what it was and we spoke about it and we spoke about butting it up and selling it like I don't know how to describe it but it's a feeling I used to get and it would either come throughout the week it could come on a Tuesday and I could be excited from that moment to the game on a Saturday or it could literally come as a walkout or just before the ref was going to blow but I knew it was coming every game there was something that used to come a little of butterflies or whatever it was that level of excitement that was like all but how did it manifest itself i don't know because it could vary through the stature of the game how i've prepared whatever that may have been i just used to know earlier in my career used to come earlier in the week so i think it was just like excitement that was just a pure excitement but then obviously as you go on and it's like now there's pressure now there's a bigger outcome and it's like i I enjoy that part of it.

50:40So, again, that may come later on in the week. But, yeah, that feeling. And what did it do for you? It made me smile. Literally, I would just smile straight away because I knew that's what I've been waiting for. That's the feeling. That taught me back to being a kid again of like, oh, you're playing football? Because all I wanted to do as a kid was play football on a Saturday. That was the only motivation. And did it mean that you knew then that you'd be okay in the game? You'd perform? No, no, because you still, that wasn't it. I just knew I was up for the game. Again, the outcome of the game, I wasn't always going to be in control of, but I just knew that was a feeling I needed to have every week to want to play.

51:22And I kind of, again, it never went, but as you get to the latter stages, I'm thinking, I'm worried. I think if that doesn't come, what does that mean? Does that mean I don't want to play anymore? Does that mean I can't compete? So luckily it never happened. Do you ever get it now? A little bit then when we spoke about it, but nowhere near the same. It can't be the same. Tell us about the day you won the league. Yeah, it was just a calm build-up. Prep was the same. Hotel was the same. Got to the game. Obviously, there was probably a bit more tension at the stadium. I think it was full out earlier.

51:59But, yeah, I don't think anyone was like... I don't remember fans getting carried away celebrating before it happened because it was QPR. I just, I get the fact, there was like expectation of us doing it, but yeah, that was it. But I always think, when you're describing it, I always, like the image of Mancini looking pig sick, like the anxiety. Have you not seen what he's actually saying? No. You can read what he's like, swearing in Italian. At us all. At us all. He's like this, and he's swearing at us all, and he's going mad. And could you hear him? No, no, obviously. No, but like when you see, He's like, if you know Italian, it's not a pleasant word to be saying to...

52:41And he's basically in that moment going, you've let us down, you've let us down, you've let us down. Yeah, literally, literally, all that. So he thought it was gone then. Imagine you thought you hadn't won the league. Yeah, well, everyone did. Obviously, Sergio knew different, but everyone would think that. What were you thinking? Oh, I was devastated. Even during the game? Yeah, yeah, because obviously I contributed to their goal, which wasn't a problem. Like, honestly, I'd made mistakes before. It wasn't a thing. Remind us what happened They They Like knocked it forward I mistimed the header And then It went over to Cissé Who scored So it was 1-1 But it honestly Didn't faze me Because we only got to score one goal We're going to score one goal It's fine Then they went 2-1 up That was the bit I was like Oh no That was devastating I was lost Yeah I was I was concentrating obviously But I was thinking I don't want to leave the house I want to pick up the kids from school It was the year after Euro I was like, I don't want to go.

53:37Like, all in the moments of the game. And funny, having spoken to players after that, other players were thinking similar things. So it wasn't like me just contributing to their goal. But yeah, then when we scored the equaliser at Eden, I honestly didn't know it was that late. I didn't know that was like injury time as well. I thought that was like 85, 86. I thought there's time. And then Sergio does what he did. but how do you I'm really interested in how you dig yourself out of that mental hole because that sounds a pretty bleak place that was yeah after the second goal yeah well I was in there I didn't dig myself out Sergio came with a massive bucket and spade and dug me all the way out so I would have probably been in there now in regards to that but it like you just get on with it like what was it not gonna and were you talking to each other on the pitch were you sort of saying to your teammates I can't believe this no no no it wasn't like that I was talking to myself in my head.

54:35But again, I think everyone was. Again, I wasn't sole on this. I wasn't the one that was doing this. I think everyone had realised what was about to happen if we didn't win. And the feeling when the ball nestles in the back of the net. I don't know because I don't remember seeing that. I remember hearing the noise. You were obviously watching. Yeah, but I still can't. I can picture it from a replay. I can't picture that from... From where you were? No. I know where I was standing. Where were you standing? Just left-hand side of the center circle, not far from the dugout. That was the position I was playing, but the noise, I'll never forget the noise.

55:16I don't even know how you get to that noise or what that noise is. I definitely won't remember, I won't forget that. But I don't remember the goal. I don't remember the build-up. And what was the emotion that you felt? Relief or happiness? No, no. Happiness, yeah. Yeah, I didn't feel relief. Just happiness, more so, because I knew what it meant to so many people, fans, players, the staff. And that's why I ran over, turned around, it was like the staff, the physios, that had been there for years. I'd gone through some dark times as a club and worked longer hours than the players. Don't get the recognition that players get.

55:59And you made the B-lines. It was just them, yeah. I turn around and I see a few of them and it was just like yeah, it means a lot to a lot of people this. And what was said afterwards in there? Nothing really. I don't remember that. I remember there was a period of time where everyone went to their own section of the dressing room but I don't remember one thing being said that stood out. I just remember the celebrations. I don't think anyone was going to be ready to sit down and listen to anyone speak. Nah, nah. There was champagne and it might be different now if you're doing four in a row. You might be a bit more composed but no, the first one was champagne everywhere and music and dancing.

56:38We sit here now having this conversation with Man City, having just now won four Premier Leagues on the bounce. Do you still reflect on that first win in 2012 as the win that started this legacy? Yeah, I would say so. Not being in an arrogant way, but there's always a foundation for every level. First is the hardest. Yeah but four in a row is pretty hard Four in a row is pretty hard as well It's just different I don't think you can Compare them because it's different times Like there's going to be fans Now and then Like I know fans that have never seen Man City win a trophy That first title It will never be topped And rightly so for them But then it's going to be fans that are witnessing four in a row That will never be topped so you can't debate what's more special but in terms of the foundation it had to be there's always a foundation and luckily enough for me and that group of players we were that that period of time and then eventually Mancini leaves Pellegrini comes in yeah how was that?

57:48difficult at first it was fine got on and then as the season went on it kind of just got more difficult it was my last season as well so I kind of felt it was going to the point of where not that I thought I was getting a new contract but they were limiting my options to get the best option I could have got after that my playing time was being reduced, not that I thought it should, again physically because he was a new manager I'd spent a lot of time being ready for him to come What had he said to you then when he first arrived? No, he was going to give me an opportunity he was going to give me an opportunity and then I kind of felt fair.

58:30That's okay. I don't want it to be guaranteed, but just be fair. And then we go and signed him Achilles and I'm like, okay, now I see what is. You don't want me to feature. So it's fine. And then he was making, I would go and see him and I would like say, is there anything I can do or not do to play more or to be considered more? He was like, this, he was questioning, my pace and stuff and I was just like you're playing no disrespect you're playing Di Michaelis and Xavi Garcia I think I'm faster than them if you're telling me you're playing Vinny and Gail Clichy or Micah Richards 100 % yeah and that's the reason you're playing them because the players you're playing aren't faster than me so that can't be the reason so again whether you like to be challenged or not that kind of had an impact and then And to be fair, later on in the season, that was in February, March time, is it?

59:31He did come and say to me, I wish I'd played you more and I should have. And I said, this means nothing now, though. It honestly means nothing because the season's over. It was about three, four weeks before. And then the last game of the season was my last home game. We played West Ham. And I don't know if it was superstition, but he'd always make this sub, which then led to Dimichaelic going into midfield. which meant I might go and at the back and he did it again last game my last game at home and he put someone else on that I was like I think it was Alvaro and the grader he was leaving so he was like let him get us farewell I was like I don't want to play but it would have been nice to get that moment considered you've said to me two weeks ago you should have played me more I was just like I don't I don't deal with the like what's the word messaging yeah yeah it seemed fake to me don't say it to me then don't don't do it that's okay but don't say to me that you wish you did it yeah yeah I can't deal with that I always find it interesting like when I've gone into occasionally dressing rooms after a manager's been sacked and you know you speak to players and go the last guy was like seemed great what was it and paraphrasing it I always come up with two answers that you hear from players tell you it's either lack of transparency they weren't clear what they wanted from me or lack of consistency they were clear they just didn't apply those principles consistently I'm interested in what do you think are the consequences like you're describing Pellegrini there he's either not been transparent or he's not been consistent in yeah it was more consistent and level like I'm not asking you to treat me any different but don't treat me different like don't give me a rule or give someone else a logical explanation or a reason that then doesn't apply to me or does apply to me and doesn't apply to them.

1:01:33Like, I can't, just doesn't... You hated the uncertainty. I just, yeah, and as I said, it didn't feel genuine. How do you find out that there is no new contract from Man City? How did I find this out? I think from the chairman, actually. From the chairman. Come and said it wasn't going to be renewed. this is the same guy that seduced you yeah yeah yeah but again it was fine it was fine like I felt privileged that he was making the time and I don't know if you've ever met Khaldun but he's so impressive like no matter who's in the room whoever he's speaking to that's the person like that's the person you know he's there present with you regardless of who that person is so yeah he made the time and obviously ridiculously busy to come to the training ground and just say to me, this isn't going to happen.

1:02:28Thank you for your service. What does he do to make you feel so special? I don't know. I don't know what skill that is, but literally, if he's speaking to you, there's no one else in the room. It's just you and him for that moment. And it might only be for 20 seconds because he's obviously operating at a different level of high performance. But he's so present, it's crazy. And that's not me. that's everyone that he meets and stands in front of has that same opinion. And tell me how you feel about the criticism that Man City still get to this day. You know, when they won that fourth title in a row, the first thing that was trending on social media was Lance Armstrong.

1:03:08You know, people making the link there between Lance having won a lot because he doped a Man City winning a lot because of these 115 charges. We've had points deductions for Forrest and Everton and people still questioning why is there no outcome to Man City? You know, you love the club, you've spent so long at the club, you know, behind the scenes as well as a player. What do you say to people when they criticise City? It's hard because nothing's been confirmed. I don't even know what these charges are, what they allegedly are kind of thing, so I'm not educated enough to know. But I think it's because of the success they are I don't think it would be as documented as much if they wasn't as successful.

1:03:55Because there's other teams that have spent more money and not been as successful. So even if allegedly what's happened has happened, it's still not guaranteed that you're going to have success. Teams have spent more money and not had success. So there has to be a level of respect for what these players have achieved. And that's the problem, isn't it? And this isn't me defending or criticising Man City. But when people talk about the charges or they say there's an asturist next to it, it removes everything that's been done. Do you know what I mean? All of the hours of hard work. And of course you can go, well, it's a financial thing, but you still can't remove the great stuff that's been done.

1:04:35Yeah, again, because it's not guaranteed. Even if, like you said, you do make the allegations, whatever, confirm them or stick, whatever, it still doesn't guarantee that you're going to win four in a row. like it doesn't mean that that is correlation you do that and you get this no there's still a lot more that comes in between and like I said these group of players deserve this moment in time I wonder how Pep feels about it because he will he has worked so hard to turn that team into what it is yeah regardless of the money that's been spent yeah it must be difficult for him to but I don't listen I I don't think anyone's gonna to tarnish Pep's reputation.

1:05:19I think when he's gone, he's going to be missed. The Premier League is going to miss Pep and I think it's going to be considered the greatest era. You've seen him at close quarters, right? What do you think of him? Superly impressive. I just think like... What do you think you've seen then? Because you've seen lots of managers, you've played under lots of managers, you've won trophies, competed at the highest level. Do you remember the first thing you saw Pep doing where you thought? Honestly, the first thing I've seen, I didn't think it was going to be work. So, when I've seen the set-up of the training and the way they play, I'm thinking, it's like, he's so demanding on the players in terms of how he, the passing drills, it's like, no, this is a game.

1:06:04So he can obviously create an environment where whatever we do is game mode, which, which is probably hard. I don't think there's other managers that have that ability to recreate every rep is so important on the training ground. And I remember watching it thinking, the way you're asking him, what you're asking him to do, necessarily isn't that difficult. I'm not sure it's going to work. Thinking, not sure that works. And as easy as it may look on the training ground, and then fast forward 12 months. And even in his first season when it wasn't as successful, but you could still see bits. So he was like, they're the bits that he's trying to get to.

1:06:44Now he just needs to make a consistency of it all. How does he create that intensity? Yeah. If I knew, I would be the second best coach in the world. And I think if everyone else knew, they would be tough. But I also believe he must have a personality trait that allows him to get that best out of players. Because if it was something you could learn, we'd all want to learn it. Let's talk about some of his big decisions as well. There was that period where he got loads of criticism for not playing Phil Foden. And everyone's saying, oh, Phil has to leave because he's not getting development. Now look what we have.

1:07:22Yeah. How's he seen so far in advance that he knows the right thing at that moment is what he was doing for Phil? Experience? I'm not saying Phil is messy, but he's had players of that calibre that he's seen this is how you're going to perform at that level. He's not going to learn something that is not going to be as relevant. like Phil Foden and Rico Lewis to a certain extent have learnt a way and the reps in the academy that probably only benefit them or benefit them a lot more at Man City. So going to learn something at another club, I don't need you to do that two or three times a game. I need you to do this nine times a game.

1:08:07And how does he get these young players out to be patient and accept that it's a process rather than just the outcome of getting in the spotlight early. I think that's a combination of him, the players there as well, and the club, the way they manage that. Regardless of who you are, you can't believe you're going to come from the academy straight into the first team and play every week because they're signing top two or three best players in their position, in every position. So for you to think, one as a club and two as a player, are you going to come from there and be in the top three in the world no there's going to be a process a time period a period of time that you're going to have to develop certain things and enhance because it's alright being able to do it but now you're doing it against and with the very best and certain aspects it might be easier for them in the first team because you're playing with the best players right like greatest respect to players as Rico Lewis played with in academy, but he wasn't Kevin De Bruyne.

1:09:14He wasn't able to look up and see Kevin De Bruyne or Haaland. So is that easier or harder? Who knows? But it's definitely something that you'd think he can do. If he can do it there with that player, then Kevin De Bruyne's going to make himself available. So he might be able to do it there as well. So if we pick one player then that looks exceptional in the city system and has gone on to shine elsewhere, Cole Palmer what was your experience of him? Oh I love him oh what a guy it's funny someone that just loves football so lax and when you see him do his interviews and it's genuinely him genuinely just loves the game and not surprising me in terms of his talent what he's doing what he's achieving like yeah a special special talent and how did he come to leave City?

1:10:07did he want to leave? I think it was Yeah, I think it was a combination of both. I think he wanted to leave. They were willing to sell. I don't think it was anyone's one decision. I think it was like, yeah, if Cole Palmer stays, my belief, if Cole Palmer stays at Man City, he doesn't go to the Euros. You're like, now he's going to the Euros, so it wasn't a bad decision by him. And would Pep look at that and think, I shouldn't have let him go look how good he is? No, Pep knew how good he is. I don't think that was a thing. I just think it was a case of, well, you're not going to feature as much as you want for me.

1:10:44And he was like, well, okay, then I'll go and feature somewhere else. And it works. Like, if City win the double and not the treble, it isn't because Cole Palmer wasn't there. You know what I mean? They lost on pens to Real Madrid. That's okay for the reason for you not to win the treble, not because you sold Cole Palmer. I think the system that Man City and Pep has created, I don't think they're going to miss any one player. I don't think any one player is going to be like, you should have kept him. Surely when Kevin De Bruyne goes, they're going to have to try and do something. Yeah, but you've had him.

1:11:25I mean, if you sell someone, you're not selling Kevin De Bruyne in his prime, so you're going to miss him. But also, I think there's an opportunity, what we've seen this season, for Phil to step in there. and the key for me is Phil is equally as effective as Kevin but just in different ways so you can't when Kevin's not playing don't expect someone to do what Kevin does have the impact he has 100 % I want Phil to have the impact Kevin has but not in the same way I don't want him to pick up the ball and bend one and make a ridiculous pass Phil Phil only picks up the ball and goes past three players and slides the pass the outcome is still the same but the way he got there was totally different and that's the way it's going to have to evolve.

1:12:05Everyone's going to have to be equally as efficient, equally as impactful, but in their own way. Can I just ask one last question about Kyle Palmer? How much further has he still got to go? How good can he be? He could be anything, but that's the thing I would say about a lot of players in terms of when people say, oh, Phil, if he only stays where he's at now for the next 10 years, he's going to be one of the greatest players. He doesn't have to do any more. Maintain the level. same as Phil Foden don't think don't come next season and think Cole Palmer's going to get 25 goals or he has to get 25 goals to be progressing no progressing might mean he's reached his peak early now stay there that's his high performance in time so he doesn't have to go oh it's another goal it's another goal no this might be can you stay there and that's the difference between the world class players they just stay there for longer can I ask you a question about him though because I was told the story by a mutual friend of ours that Pep recounted about Carl Palmer where he said when he realised he had something about him and it wasn't about the talent it was about the mentality.

1:13:15Yeah, he said he knew he had something special because he doesn't pass to Kevin when he asks for it. That's it, yeah. Go on, explain that. So he says he knew he got personality because in training these young lads come up and then Kevin shouts for the ball they would try even if it's not on they will try and pass to him he said Cole doesn't do that if something's better for Cole or the team that's what's happening that Kevin needs the ball and what would that tell Pep Guardiola? that he's got a personality that he's got a personality to recognise and also a level of football IQ to recognise that might not be the right pass yeah I've heard that as well so interesting but that goes back to the mentality piece that you said that you recognised was important for you when Louis Saha bested you that time.

1:14:03So if there was any young people watching this interview, what can they do to develop a mentality, not just in football, but just a mentality that allows them to reach their best and then stay there? Because that's exactly what you did. I think everybody knows if they're cheating themselves. I think everybody knows that. So deep down, whatever it is, whatever field you're in, you'll know if you're doing the right thing. It may appear to be right to everyone else, but deep down when the lights go off, I could have done more. I should be doing more. I shouldn't be doing this. And then that's when you have that ownership and accountability.

1:14:42I think I heard that word relatively young and it resonated with me. Accountability. Everything's my fault. I make everything my fault and then some things that aren't, I can work backwards from that. But when it happens, it's my fault. and then you can be mature about the process and say, that isn't really my fault. But initially, I'm responsible. Lovely. Julian, quick fire questions. Yeah. The three non-negotiable behaviours that you and the people around you should buy into? Oh, valuing, not valuing their time like lateness. I don't know if I've done it. I don't really like swearing. I don't think there's a need to swear.

1:15:24And blame, culture. don't blame anyone what's the single best piece of advice you've ever received and why do one more again TC used to say to me when you're doing your reps and you're doing your sets and you lose count do one more what's your biggest strength and what's your greatest weakness probably my kids for both and I think that's I go it's far to explain like I believe people's traits are the same and it's the circumstances that determine whether they are strengths or weaknesses. Lovely. What advice would you give to a teenage Australian just starting at? Oh. Do more. You can do more. Don't think that you've done enough.

1:16:11Just, whatever it is, learn more about yourself. Learn more about the profession. Finally, your one golden rule for living a high-performance life. I don't know. What do you tell your kids? Ask them, are they happy? I'd rather ask them than tell them.

1:16:35That's a nice one. Why is are you happy a good sort of golden rule? Why? Because I think they will know the feeling of, I want them to be happy rather than do what they think I want them to do. So like my oldest has stepped away from playing. I never want him to think, I don't want you to play if you don't want to play. But then don't complain to me if you do want to play. And you're not doing the right things. So if you're happy, then it's fine. Mate, thank you so much.

1:17:09Damien. Jake. I've worked with Jodian for a long time. I think he's, honestly, he's one of the nicest, most genuine people in football. And I think that was a really good insight into the fact that you can achieve some great things, but you can also have some tough times. and he's not an overthinker, is he? He's quite sanguine about accepting the things that happen to him and just trying to find a way through them. Well, I loved that last element that he said about be accountable for everything and then the things that actually, once you've had the chance to process it, you realise isn't in your control.

1:17:41Forget that. And I think his whole interview gave an example of somebody that just took accountability. Don't abuse me when I come in the dressing room and I won't do it to you. if I make a mistake I'll hold my hand up and I'll just keep going everything that he said there he's a role model for and also he's a man of honour like if he's leaving a football club I've got an issue he goes and sees the manager himself and I think those things matter and I think it shines through in the way he spoke yeah and I think he was part of the England Under 21 European Championship winning coaching staff and you can see why the impact on young players and young people would be so significant because like you say he's a man of honour he role models the behaviours he's asking them to do and you know he obviously understands how to create a healthy vibrant culture.

1:18:29That's great thanks mate Yeah thank you And that's it Listen I can't thank Julian enough for wanting to come on the show and talk about not just what happened on the football field but the crucial elements that came together off the field to help him deliver to such a high standard for so long and I'd love to know what you made of today's episode. I'd love you to reach out to us on Instagram. You can follow the show just at High Performance. So give us a follow on there and get in touch. And remember, stay humble, curious and empathetic, and we'll see you for more very soon.

1:19:19Thank you.

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