Kevin Sinfield: The Day He Said Goodbye to Rob Burrow (E440)

0:03Rob Burrow: Last time I saw him was the day before he passed. We both knew it was the last time. I kissed him on his forehead, told him I loved him. And then I looked back for one last time and left me with a smile, which was what he always did.

0:24Rob Burrow: been a bit of a journey since we're last together

0:27Kevin Sinfield: last time you sat here high performance was all about getting the best out of yourself and the people around you since then you've lost Rob you've got a knighthood and your lad's been playing against your old team is that still the same answer?

0:42Rob Burrow: yes

0:44Kevin Sinfield: undoubtedly

0:45Rob Burrow: however I would say the environment you create to get the best out of people is still what I believe high performance is.

0:54Kevin Sinfield: In our last chat, Kev, you told us that you ran so Rob could see you fighting with him.

0:59Rob Burrow: Yeah.

1:00Kevin Sinfield: Now, Rob's passed away and he obviously can't see it, but what takes its place now when you say on day 13 and you're hitting mile 15?

1:12Rob Burrow: Legacy. Rob's legacy. It's still really important to me that, I think. The way people have got behind the campaigning the movement Rob's centre in Leeds is a physical piece if you like we've got the Robborough Leeds Marathon I think everyone in the UK knows who Robborough and the Borough family are so legacy but then over this period of time you know, been on with this, this is year number seven now so throughout that period of time the amount of people I've met, the families the connections

1:52Rob Burrow: are what drives me on. We've lost so many in that period of time and so many getting diagnosed. And there's something beautiful around those interactions I have with the MND community and I have with people. People don't want to talk rugby anymore. They want to talk running and MND. But life's about connections for me and there's something beautiful about meeting people whilst you're out on the challenges and they're on and there's somebody stood in front of you who's come to meet you and they're full of grief and pain their eyes are full ready to cry yet they're just so happy to be there and it's a real it's a real mix of emotions that's right in front of you and you don't know how to handle it at times and the best way is to go in for a hug even being honest but there's something really beautiful about those interactions and there's people there who've lost people 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago and never felt like they've been able to grieve properly never felt like people understood never felt like they could take the shame away from what people were thinking or describing back then because nobody knew what M &D was so to suddenly, for them to feel support but for them to feel part of something that is trying to provide some hope and almost give some answers to why they've lost whoever they've lost is why we carry on.

3:23Rob Burrow: I'm in it for life. I'm in that commitment. What's to find a cure? If you ask me what's the end goal, the end goal is to find a cure. Of course it is. And I think we owe it to all the people we've lost along the way and those who are diagnosed today. but sat firmly alongside that is the level of care we provide families it's not been good enough and the amount of families i meet whose lives have been flipped you know they've got the perfect family there's mum dad there's two kids both got full-time jobs kids are doing really well in school suddenly bump one of them gets diagnosed and then the life completely changes suddenly within a matter of months someone's in a chair and can't feed themselves so the other adult then has to become the primary carer and finish work so they've gone from having two big incomes to suddenly just the carer's allowance they've got two kids who they're trying to explain the amount of families I've met like that it's devastating and the level of care has to improve we have to get better and we owe it to all those we've lost to ensure we do that because everyone of every family every person that i've met who's been affected by him a day all say the same thing i want to make it better for those who come after me and what a brave yeah way to look about life by the way but and whilst i'm fit and healthy i'll i'll try my try and do my best and how do you process those moments when you see

4:58Kevin Sinfield: somebody with that pain or that sadness coming to just want to hug off you like what do you do with that well they stay with me they all stay with me they leave a mark on you and then

5:12Rob Burrow: the run helps um the guys who i run with know when i've had a real difficult challenging interaction when i say difficult it just because of the circumstance yeah that they've been thrust upon they all know because I run a little bit faster it's my time to

5:38Rob Burrow: it's trying to explain it's really tough and it's only the last sort of two years 18 months that I've been able to really articulate to try and take some of the suffering away which go on explain more than that it's I felt this with Rob but I felt that if he saw us willing to push our bodies and not just on the run or the challenge because it's a week long right but the prep is the worst bit it's brutal getting ready and I'm not getting any younger but if through that suffering it it makes me feel like I'm helping it makes me feel like I'm taking some of the pain away which sounds crazy I'm not but when they see us and they don't see me running they don't know what times I'm running they don't know how hard I'm running but that's my way of trying to cope and deal with some of those interactions by running and suffering a little bit more the suffering helps me to deal with it I don't know why it makes me feel a little bit better about the work we're doing about the work everybody's doing.

6:59Rob Burrow: The suffering's been important for me, which, yeah, that's me being honest.

7:05Kevin Sinfield: Right. And as somebody that's spent his life, though, being measured by data, stats, and scoreboards, you've raised£11 million for the seven runs that you've done and counting. But we are, it seems, no closer to a cure. how do you sort of keep that motivation going though we are closer we are closer okay

7:28Rob Burrow: there's still a gap and there's still a long way to go i realize that i'm not naive um the way i see it is i can sit on my settee at home and have an idea and not do anything about it or i can sit on my settee at home have an idea and get off my backside and go right well i'm going to try and there's a difference and um i think through trying and the suffering and the caring and that helps what i'd also say is we might not be close to finding a cure i actually do think we are but we might not be but the level of level of care for families in the uk has improved dramatically over the last seven years um the amount of things that are available now for families who have been diagnosed has changed.

8:21Rob Burrow: And that's the bit we can change now. The other thing is how we make people feel. The money, the awareness, the care are all important. And then how people feel when they come and see you, how people feel when they're suddenly part of an army who are trying to fight against MND. who were in a battle and suddenly they don't feel alone anymore they feel like they're part of it and to have their support is incredible for us but I hope they take some love away from the community that show up it's a big community Damien when we stop the start and the finish are great but in between those little moments where we have interactions where there might be 200 or 300 people there might be 800 people at certain stops suddenly they look around and they're not on their own anymore they realise there's so many people affected by this disease and have been for some time and then the people who aren't connected with it in any way shape or form which I've seen as well who just love the story about Rob I've seen how brutal the disease is and I want to help and I speak passionately about this in particular what I'm going to say the UK gets a battering we batter each other over silly stupid things at times and I'm going to include Ireland in this because we've run over in Ireland but I've seen the absolute best of the people who live here and we've been right across the country right people are so giving, so caring, so supportive they've just not had a vehicle to do it before, to support the M &D community and now they've got one and now we've there's so many people providing it now, it's not just us and to be able to see that in through all different communities all different races all different colours it hasn't mattered where we've gone nationally none of it matters what has mattered is they've come out and wanted to support and wanted to show the MD community that they are really important so you've like I love that term about creating a culture of love where people feel connected and feel that they belong when you and you also said the last two years

10:42Kevin Sinfield: you've learned to be able to articulate it when you speak to people that are being diagnosed in those early stages what like what do you say to them that combines that love but that pragmatic

10:53Rob Burrow: straight talking then uh the love's important for us we've got to start with that and um and I try and show that in my best way possible sometimes it's difficult in the run by the way because you're absolutely blasted and it's just bucketed down on you for all day and you're tired and you're doing your best right because emotionally you're all over the place but it's got it's got to start with that level of care and level of love and then the first one's normally you've got to bank your voice you've got to do that now because you don't know when your voice is going to go on. For some people, it might be too late.

11:31Rob Burrow: We saw with Rob when his speech was going. So you've got to bank your voice. And Rob was fortunate in some ways because there's been so many rugby interviews that have used his voice and they were able to pull snippets of it and piece it together so he could bank his voice.

11:45Kevin Sinfield: When was your last conversation with him?

11:50Rob Burrow: Conversation going back a number of years because he lost his voice pretty quickly. He used his eye gaze machine, but you know Rob as well he was stubborn and he didn't like using it so he'd be sat there with his sunglasses on we used to call him Stevie Wonder at times he'd be sat there with his sunglasses on and not with a care in the world and you'd just be chatting to him he'd be fast asleep as feedback yeah as feedback we worked out a way of communicating without speaking I would be speaking but he had a way of through facial expression smiles eye contact and when I think back to that how wonderful that is to be able to develop and have great conversations without him unable to speak last time I saw him was the day before he passed and it was tough I was in an England rugby camp and I got the message that I knew our week he'd been poorly and got the message they thought it was close so shot back up north and went to see him and as I looked through the little window he'd had his own private room Robbie he was still working his magic then Damien and as I peered through we were fast asleep with the breathing apparatus on and anyway I crept in and saw his mum and his sister and and I sat with him and he woke up and so I did what I normally did was try and make him laugh and told him what I'd been up to and no it was really sad because sad but beautiful we both knew it was the last time I knew, I was pretty sure it was the last time I'm pretty sure he did too the minute he opened his eyes I got the biggest smile he was so happy that I always got the smile, Damien, regardless of what was going on.

13:57Rob Burrow: I always got a smile. And it was his way of saying, everything's all right. And his way of saying to me, no matter what's going on in your life,

14:11Rob Burrow: whatever's weighing heavy on you, whatever you're mulling over, doesn't matter. It was his way of saying, just get on with living and loving and taking some risks and and yeah the final interaction I kissed him on his forehead I told him I loved him and then

14:36Rob Burrow: as I was leaving I looked back for one last time and left me with a smile which was

14:48Rob Burrow: what he always did which was throughout all that time he couldn't speak it was always about smile at the start smile when I left and even his most difficult moments when I'm sure he knew he still found the energy for a smile and

15:14Rob Burrow: I only ever saw him upset twice They were right at the start He'd been diagnosed After that he was So positive about life We'll be right back After a quick word from our partners

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17:35Rob Burrow: left so many lessons without speaking to me like what er I don't know if you've read the book Tuesdays with Morrie

17:48Kevin Sinfield: yeah yeah Mitch Harbon yeah

17:50Rob Burrow: yeah I read that and I'm like that's Rob that's Rob that's Rob that's Rob that's Rob but as you know there's a conversation taking place in the book I had these lessons from Rob without the conversations from just being sat there and spending time with him, what's important in life we should spend your time and energy but letting things go that don't matter caring for people being a bit more compassionate

18:25Rob Burrow: carrying on what we're doing yeah so So, yeah.

18:32Kevin Sinfield: That line from Rob always gets me, and I think about it regularly when he said about, I hope that ghosts exist so I can still watch down on the kids. And I can't think of that line without it sort of, has two effects. One, it guts me. But then secondly, you think, act as if somebody is watching you and observing you, even if they're not there. is there any particular lines from him that you remember

19:02Rob Burrow: just his humour every time I hear a Michael Jackson song I think about him I think about him more than you could probably imagine because when I'm out running car registration players I always see number 7 double 7s or triple 7s I look at me watching 7.77k just like and I know like the law of attraction I know but it still reminds you of them and the memories and I have such fond memories of our times together in the dressing room

19:38Rob Burrow: which were great and challenging and difficult over the course of a 15 year career you couldn't have all those different mixes in there but he was the one who always brought the ice who always came with the funny and And I always remember his smile. His smile was, yeah, his greatest gift.

19:59Kevin Sinfield: And when you had the funeral for Robert, you were away with England at the time, is that right? I came back. So you were in New Zealand in the Test Series. Yeah, I was in New Zealand and the RSV was so supportive.

20:15Rob Burrow: Steve was England head coach and the lads were brilliant. The playing group? The playing group, yeah. coaching group, everybody. We all lose people we love and care about. And some people might have chose to do it a different way, but I wanted to be at the funeral. I wanted to say goodbye properly. It was a long trip back for 12 hours on the ground here to fly straight back to New Zealand, which is you know it was what it was the funny part of the story is he asked for you know we had a sleep coach he asked for some advice on best way to handle it and the advice came back was just stay in New Zealand time while you're back in the UK and I said well that's alright but I'll be fast asleep during a funeral so it's points me going back so that quickly went out the window but yeah I felt I needed to be there it was important to me for Lindsay and the kids and obviously Geoff and Irene your mum and dad unfortunately we lost Geoff earlier this year but yeah I needed to be there and like I said the support from within the England group

21:37Kevin Sinfield: I couldn't have asked for anymore Can you give us an example like what did they do to show you that support beyond getting you on a plane and getting you back?

21:46Rob Burrow: you just feel it from people it's not always words they say it's the fact there's an arm on your shoulder and there's a look on the face that you know and they know that they're thinking about you and they don't really know what to say but they're just letting you know that yep I get it and we'll see you back when you get here we'll be waiting for you but yeah I've spoke passionately about rugby lads before and this would be the same with you know the women and girls that play rugby lads have a unique bond and I know I'm not a player anymore but I don't mean I can't have great connections with the lads and yeah I was you know at times you feel very very fortunate because you're around great people and thankfully I find myself around great people all the time

22:40Kevin Sinfield: but you've said like when people know when you've gone through a difficult experience you run a bit faster when you sort of left like Bob's funeral and you're getting back on a 24 hour plane you can't run faster how did you process the whole experience?

23:00Rob Burrow: Well I had to speak at the funeral I didn't have to but I got asked if I would and I was honoured to which was tough What did you say? I quoted El Pacino from any given Sunday you may remember Rob walking around dressing rooms listening to the famous speech the inch by inch one and that's how he that's how he conveyed how we should live our life without saying it through his fight in being a warrior, the character he was yeah and then I talked about just the inspiration he'd given millions and that wasn't just Rob it was the Burrow family it was Lindsay it was the kids it was the full family unit what they were able to showcase and show in their most difficult moments they opened the front door up to TV crews and

24:03Rob Burrow: he inspired people to fight he inspired people to not give in put a smile on your face and yeah I spoke about that because it's inspired me inspires me every day and like I said before what a legacy for him to leave he's he left a real mark on so many people in the UK so you know the MND community no we had Doddy who was who started the campaign and became a great friend was so important for Rob at the start when he got diagnosed and then since then there have been so many others who have been diagnosed who on the back of Doddy and Rob have been able to go they've got some profile because of the sporting careers they've had and been able to go I'm going to try and utilise this and use it like those guys have in the best way possible and the MND community need that they need people who are going to stand up in the most tricky darkest difficult hours and go So I'm still with you guys.

25:12Rob Burrow: I'm still here. I'm still going to fight. And that's so important for him to see. So the inspiration he provided, continues to provide, is, yeah, it was what I spoke about.

25:24Kevin Sinfield: Brilliant. So can we talk a little bit about your time with England then as well? When we spoke to you last, you were describing the experience of you'd made the transition from going from Leicester Tigers to England with Steve Borthwick and the rest of his staff. What was your title there now with England?

25:46Rob Burrow: I'm still an assistant coach. Right. I went as defence coach. We did the World Cup and then not long after I went part-time, which there's a lot of time away with England and my kids being at the age that they're at.

26:09Rob Burrow: and the way my charity work was going yeah um I wanted to devote more time to it and it felt like it was the right thing and it's been it's been the best thing the best thing um I get my fix of high performance and being around top quality athletes who want to get better yeah who are desperate to win and I also get to come out of that and and run for a community that absolutely needs us and and need support so I've got a really nice balance in my life get a bit more family time which has been really important to me so but that high performance fix has been yeah it's I just love being in and around it and how do they complement

26:58Kevin Sinfield: each other those two those two aspects of your life yeah

27:03Rob Burrow: I think Test Rugby international sport is intense so understanding I love the intensity by the way like yeah but I understand if we stay at that level of intensity 24-7 for a period of time we'll get burnout and we'll get people if we're looking to do something else so trying to provide that level of support care care might sound a bit warm and fluffy for a rugby environment but it is in effect that's you know people are people and whether they're playing rugby or building houses are sat behind a desk. They're still people and they've still got feelings and emotions and when we're talking about high performance, helping people get in the right headspace to play well and train well and someone might have been dropped or left out or injured or yet someone's got the first cap and they're all very, very different so there's different conversations and trying to find different ways of connecting, interacting and pushing the right buttons is what I like to think I do when I've got both hats on.

28:08Kevin Sinfield: Because there's also a mentoring element to what you do of helping these young men not just perform on the field, but off it as well, isn't there?

28:18Rob Burrow: You try. I think the best way you do that is just role modelling. I think people see through who you are if you don't behave a certain way. If what comes out of your mouth doesn't match your behaviours, then you fall out of the first hurdle. I try and live a certain way. I try and behave a certain way. I try and make sure they are congruent. So, but people see through it very, very quickly. You know, whether you call it mentoring, whether you call it coaching, whether you call it trying to be a good person, trying to care, I'm not sure what banner it sits under, if I'm honest. There isn't a difference to me.

29:00Rob Burrow: I'm just, I'm there to help and support and that might be help and support, a drill that another assistant coach is doing. It might be help and support Steve with something. and it might be a player has just been dropped and he needs support. Now, some of that doesn't mean you're always going, oh, put my arm around him now, I'll be a soft ear. Some of it's challenging, pushing, trying to work out what that person needs at that moment in time. I like to think through my level of care and support, it enables me to push and challenge. Far easier than if I just go in and try and kick the door in.

29:35Kevin Sinfield: People want to know you care, don't they? Well, you talk about standards and inspiring other people and there's a picture of you and Rob that hangs up in the hallway of the home of your greatest rivals, Wigan Warriors. Let me just show you this, Kev.

29:49Rob Burrow: It's the first thing that you see when you walk into our training ground is a picture of Kev and Rob embracing it just says, the best team minutes care.

29:59Kevin Sinfield: And I think us having that up is even more impactful that they're not Wigan players.

30:07Kevin Sinfield: because we all want to win, absolutely we do. But when things like that happen, what happens to Rob, you understand that it is a game. It is a game and the important part of it is the mateship, the memories, the lessons you learn

30:29Rob Burrow: that affect the rest of your life. and I thought in Rad's putting that open, I thought it was a great statement of intent from not just what we want our team to be about

30:41Kevin Sinfield: but what we want our community to be about. But Kev saying that, yeah, it's someone who's probably the most famous rugby player certainly in Britain at the moment and what he's achieved in coaching as well. he's someone I have a huge amount of respect for and if ever you want to meet a man to make you feel like you're not doing enough in life it's him How do you feel when you see incredible coaches like Matt using you as an example?

31:16Rob Burrow: Matt's a friend

31:20Rob Burrow: he's had an unbelievable career a lovely guy as you know very very philosophical and we think similar on lots of different things. It's a special club, we coaches. They've had some special players and they've steeped in history. I think they've changed quite a lot in the last five or six years under Matter, the way they're really connected to the community and the togetherness they have as a playing group. I think they always had it, but it feels different now. It feels genuine. I think before it was all about winning trophies I think now it's about winning trophies and genuinely caring as well I've seen the photograph I'm pretty honoured to know there's a photograph of Rob and I in Leeds Kitts in Wigan I know Chris Radlinski pretty well I know Chris Brooks the chairman there it's a very very good club a caring club and I was there I was there recently to watch my son play and they looked after us better than anywhere I've ever been looked after so it shows the level of care they've got and the way they want to look after people I'm delighted that we're able to run in Wigan this time and I've always wanted to go back to sort of our North West clubs I played all my junior rugby there so I've very nearly signed for Wigan as a 13 year old did you?

32:51Rob Burrow: yeah but it's a great club and Matt has done a wonderful job and yeah, it's very nice of him to say those things.

33:00Kevin Sinfield: And you're going to run out like the final leg of this seven in seven that you're doing is taking you onto the picture, Old Trafford, one of 60 ,000 plus people. What's that going to feel like for you?

33:15Rob Burrow: Yeah, we've had some unbelievable moments as a group. The team are so special to me. I love them all to bits. because when I think about our team none of them are rugby lads none of them there's one or two we might have played but they're just people that have been friends for a long period of time they're people I've worked with and become really close friends they're great operators and all of a sudden you throw them together as a team and some of them are United fans so getting to walk out on the pitch down the tunnel is pretty special for them we had an experience in 2022 for the Rugby League World Cup final which was held at Old Trafford and we got to walk out there but it was half time and we had Heather Small singing and we were all hoping England would be in that final and it was Australia and Samoa yet Old Trafford was still packed.

34:14Rob Burrow: To feel the support of both sets of fans if you like typically when I play there for Leeds it's been one set of fans who are cheering for us the other set cheering for an opposition just to feel that it's special and you know it's funny because there'll be two teams that and I try and give this message at different places we go like we at Celtic and Rangers in the same day a couple of years back when we were running through Glasgow and Liverpool and Everton and you know like some big rivalries like there's always a battle for those guys we come in peace there's no battle here we've got a war on and we need both of those teams whoever in that final to come and join us and support us and get behind and be a part of it because there's a war against MND and our team can't do it on their own the thousands of people who are doing all different fundraising events you know different marathons and whatever they're doing they can't do it on their own either we're going to make a real dent on this disease and find a cure and care for people properly we need everybody so it'd be interesting to see who ends up in the final

35:29Rob Burrow: but it feels like I'm coming home in many ways and it feels like

35:37Rob Burrow: everybody knows I was a Leeds player right but I've been retired from playing 11 years now and because of what we've done over the last six years a lot of that's gone I'm not the ex-Leeds player anymore in a lot of people's eyes and I'm for want of a better word I'm a runner and I'm not a runner either but I'm a runner so and I'm really proud of the Rugby League community and what they've done the way they got behind Rob I'm really proud of the Rugby Union community by the way like I'm part of both and I love being part of both and but it felt right this one to go home and be in Super League finished the seventh one as you know it was built around number seven finished the seventh one at Old Trafford where Rob was unplayable at times to visit all those clubs where Rob tormented them and to thank them to thank them for

36:37Kevin Sinfield: showing up yeah and can I ask you a little bit about the guys that we often like when we see the footage of you doing these it's the guys in the background in the shadows that have been with you for all seven of them. I spoke to Martin last year, who told me the story of you when you did the 100-mile run from Leicester to Leeds and you getting annoyed at him about the playlist. And then he said he played the same playlist the day after and he said it was much better. Depends what mood you're in, doesn't it?

37:10Rob Burrow: Look, the great thing about all teams is you're accepting of each other at times and then I'd like to think when my mood isn't great I apologise after and that don't make it right but

37:32Rob Burrow: we're a good enough team to understand that at times things don't go to plan we can't please everybody all the time someone gets a puncture when they're on the bike there's a big ill coming up and one of the runners isn't happy about it and it's just we can't move the ill it is where it is and there's an old range of emotions throughout the week but great teams find a way and it's the best team I've been in Damien and I've been in some absolutely unbelievable teams guys who I'd have alongside me every single second but that team as a whole is the best one I've been in just so selfless Like the commitment, the commitment, and people look at it and they go, you're giving a week up.

38:19Rob Burrow: It's not a week. Yeah. It's not. Like the prep, the prep for all of us. Like the runners in particular, right? The prep and the miles. Then there's no events team. There's no marketing team. There's no media team. It's our team. And nobody gets paid. And rightly so, right? Nobody should get paid. So they're all putting it in. They've all got full-time jobs. They've all got families. They're all busy. And yet, for seven years in a row, they've gone, we're here and we'll do what we can. We are not a world record attempt, sub two hour marathon attempt, but we're not a kid's fun run either. We're somewhere in the middle.

39:00Rob Burrow: It's got to be enjoyable because if it's not enjoyable, they won't come back next year. Or they wouldn't keep coming back. But it's got to be tough enough for it to be taken serious by everyone else to be able to go actually this has become more about connection than it has running but if the running isn't hard enough why will people give money so we've got to get strike the right balance and I think we've got enough experience and wisdom now throughout the last seven years where we will go into camp Saturday night seamlessly fit together like good teams do without what the prep has been for some of them the prep has been this has been being put together from before the last one started I knew what this would be before we started the last one

39:50Kevin Sinfield: See I think there's so much value in just exploring that for a moment Kev because I think there's lots of people that will be watching this and listening to it that are like maybe they don't face such extreme adversity that you've done you know maybe that sense of purpose that comes from wanting to help Rob at the start isn't there for them, but you've described as somebody that won so many grand finals and other trophies to say this collection of people that have come from diverse backgrounds have got their own challenges is the best team ever. It's something pretty significant. What are the elements that you've discovered that anybody could take within their own team and apply it?

40:33Rob Burrow: Well, first of all, apart from having my kids, it's the best thing I've done, best thing I've been involved with. So, my view on my rugby career now, all I ever wanted to be was a rugby player from the age of 11, right? 10, 7. And then you fulfil that and I get to 35 and I'm retiring and I don't want to be remembered as an ex-rugby player. There's nothing wrong with that. I am an ex-rugby player. But hopefully I'm here for another good stint of time and I want to make a mark in a different way and I don't know what that looks like and I

41:11Rob Burrow: so to be involved in the best thing I've ever been involved with with a team who don't get paid who give so much who are so committed who are so caring so supportive I think you add all them ingredients together and that's why this makes it such a special team right to start we got lucky Damien right there's a lot of luck in my career there's a lot of luck in me playing my times are capped in me the probably two most significant days in my life or two more significant things I've been involved with are down to fortune. Now, we could debate this all day, by the way. When we set the original seven and seven up, which was seven marathons in seven days, all under four hours, right?

41:54Rob Burrow: At that point, I'd ran six marathons. Never done back-to-back. I promised Rob he would have that amount of money in his bank account by Christmas 2020. This was September. We were in COVID. Sports matches were taking place. we didn't have crowds I were helping run our Covid protocol at the club I need to do something I made a promise I want to fulfil it we had ruler six so I messaged five friends and said will you get involved in this I'm going to do something for Rob they didn't care what it was they just said yeah that's how it started we got Oldham Council and Leeds Council to sign off the routes because we couldn't advertise and we were in Covid there was no charity events going on because there was nothing going on BBC Breakfast have gone we need something to cover that's a bit different to COVID here we'll follow these guys and yeah I had some profiles a rugby league player and the Burrow story was out there but it might have been lost if normal life was

42:53Kevin Sinfield: yeah yeah of course

42:55Rob Burrow: we start with 40 grand day one end of day one we hit 100 grand right and because of the support and media attention we suddenly got it went like that at any other time I don't think that would have happened we got lucky we were right place right time and I don't forget that I don't forget that I know we did this was a sport relief challenge with however many thousands backing it yeah yeah financially this was put together at the back of our cars yeah like and it were we winged it but the fact of the matter was and I go back to this there was a choice I can sit on my couch and I can think about running seven marathons in seven days or I can have a go at it but tell me

43:46Kevin Sinfield: like that rule of six where you send the text out and there's no detail other than we need to muck in why did they all come back and say yes do you think?

43:58Rob Burrow: Friendship I think they knew how much it meant to me which shows how selfless they were. There were nothing else going on, Damon. All the other big sporting events had been cancelled. You couldn't go to sport in matches, so they were probably a bit bored at home as well. I thought, why not? Give me something to train for over these next couple of months while I get myself ready. I'd like to think it was more the friendship element. Yeah. But it was a combination of all different things. you remember we had an hour a day we could exercise well just so happened during those weeks and months that were in place I'd used my hour for a run and very very quickly we're able to suddenly start to think I can put back to back days together and that's what you know without Covid and people going on furlough people having time off work people having time at home I don't think the first one happens I just don't I don't there'd have been something that took place and we might have hit the target you know which was 77 ,777 we might have got there we might have creaked to the line and fell over it just circumstance we're so fortunate and yeah we just and I don't forget that I don't forget that and those other five who were there at the start there's a real there's a bond between all of us but that other five very quickly became six we were actually really seven halfway through

45:47Rob Burrow: but there was something there's something about that group they are the vast majority are Oldham Oldham lads as you know I'm from one of them I didn't even know that I didn't even know properly he was mate of Dave's who runs with us and he said he's got a bike and he fancies mucking in it and it's like great we've had to become great friends but at the time it was just at the time

46:11Kevin Sinfield: especially for lots of men where there's like a friendship crisis you know where people are more connected than ever but feeling lonelier than ever and the consequences of loneliness we know the impact that can have what have you learned about friendship that you could pass on to people just how much you've got to give yourself

46:34so I got a lot of that

46:36Rob Burrow: from Rob and I was I always thought I was pretty caring as a captain and as a player my family we all love our families to bits don't we but wanted to be a better friend and Rob got diagnosed and that's rippled right into all parts of my life how do you mean a bit more compassionate a bit more caring a bit more understanding a bit more patient willing to spend a bit more time with people if I'm getting the signals that something's a bit off yeah yeah I'm not trying to make people feel better because I don't want people to feel better but I want people to understand that there's always a way there's always someone who'll help you there's always somebody if you're willing to now Now for someone in the darkest hour and difficult spot, they're not going to reach out.

47:33Rob Burrow: I think we could be so much better at reading signs. There's always a sign, there's always something that's slightly off if you know someone well enough. And I think in those moments, that's when we can all just do a little bit, just a tiny bit to make a difference. We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners.

47:53Kevin Sinfield: Today's episode is brought to you by Olympic Hospitality. The Olympic Games are coming to Los Angeles in 2028. This is a once-in-a-generation event that you will not want to miss. And it's more than a ticket. It's a story you share with your family and friends. And the ultimate way to get closer to the action is with an Olympic hospitality package. Ticket-inclusive packages offer a range of prime seating and lounge access options, venue-dependent priority entry, food and beverage selections from LA's diverse dining scene, and elevated service and continuous support, making your day at the Olympic Games one to remember for a lifetime.

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49:44Brilliant.

49:46Kevin Sinfield: And the last topic I want to explore with you, Kev, is being the dad of a young athlete these days, that's a transition for you. You're Jack, started at Leeds Rhinos and now doing well at Wakefield. What's that experience been like for you? It's been good.

50:05Rob Burrow: Tough at times.

50:09Rob Burrow: We all want the best for our kids. whatever walk of life they're in, whether, you know, I've got another son who's not in sport, but on his own path.

50:20Rob Burrow: But it's, I'm so proud of both my boys. Jack could have easily have stayed at Leeds and been comfortable.

50:34Rob Burrow: But he chose courage. And I know that's a famous Benny Brown leadership. You know, she's comfort or courage. You can't have both. I can remember saying it to him,

50:46like, you need to play.

50:48Rob Burrow: The only way you're going to get better as a young player is if you're going to play. Back then, again, I was fortunate. I got a chance at 16 and you didn't have the team for the first couple of years, but you always felt the club were going to push young lads. During his time at Leeds, I'm not making excuses here, by the way, but his time at Leeds, he's had five head coaches, four or five head coaches who as soon as they come in they go experience and the young player drops to the bottom of the ladder again but he needed to play that was it that was it and if you you know we felt that the path in front would be blocked for the next 12 maybe 18 months it's alright being patient when you're 17, 18, 19 which you know it's 21 so it was difficult cup for him he'd grown up supporting Leeds you know his first game he was two weeks old it was a grand final at Old Trafford in 2004 so he'd grown up supporting Leeds he's got every Leeds shirt you can imagine and desperate to represent the club and play for the club but I'm really proud he was courageous enough to go I need to play I understand it I've got to play and if I want a career and I want to get better then I need to play you know you see it in so many other sports where so many talented kids who perhaps don't get the chance and suddenly they're 22 23 24 and people look at them like they're damaged goods when they're not when they're not they've just not had an opportunity so um we were really conscious of that as a family um yeah and i'm like i said i'm really proud he's he's had the

52:31Kevin Sinfield: courage to and there'll be lots of parents though that like it's often said navigating that car journey home after a game is often the bit that makes or breaks their love for whatever sport they're pursuing. What are the kind of lessons as a dad that you'd pass on to anyone listening to this that might have a young person in their life that they want to go on and pursue their dreams?

52:56Rob Burrow: Yeah, it's a great question. I had a great role model on my own, mum and dad.

53:00Kevin Sinfield: Yeah.

53:02Rob Burrow: So, do you know the journey, Damien? But I signed Pro at 13, which meant a car journey from Ulham to Leeds and back most evenings and if it had been intense for my dad like that it would have been unbearable I don't know whether I'd I probably would have come stepped away from rugby league very very quickly which is a shame but it weren't like that at all some of my great memories of childhood probably my music taste is heavily influenced by my dad at that time in the car so I had a great role model and then And I love what, it was always difficult at first when he started to play rugby. And I was probably the dad stood behind the post with his hood up because I was still playing at the time and just wanted him to be Jack and enjoy playing.

53:54Rob Burrow: And then a couple of years later, one of our Jack's head coach sadly was Paulian and I helped out for a number of months. And that's where the real test came because suddenly you're a coach and your dad and try to work out where the barriers are. We had a really good rule that worked for us, which was, I'm your dad until we step out the car for training or a game. And then at that moment, I become your coach. The minute we get back in the car, I'm your dad. And I'll continue to be. If you want to talk rugby, you have to instigate it. And I think that served us pretty well. I'm really conscious of I want home to be sanctuary I want him to feel like we have no rugby memorabilia there's nothing up there's nothing I want him to feel like he can get away from because it's his job he loves doing it but it's his job and I want him to understand that I'm here I'll always be here if you want advice come and see me if not then I don't want to talk rugby with you now that's difficult it's tricky because you know there's times I watch him play and I might be frustrated like all parents will be right you're frustrated or you're disappointed is too strong a word but frustrated or actually beaming because he's played great

55:21and

55:23Rob Burrow: some of that might come out at times but then I'm really conscious your dad your dad your dad just be so it's something that I think all mums and dads and grandparents are looking for the right balance for them yeah yeah yeah I'd like to think we've got what works for us, he's still living at home and he's not moved out yet so hopefully we're doing something right and I hope he stays with us as long as he wants to stay with us so when he decides to move out that'll be purely on it's time for him to move out not because dad's on top of me with the rugby. Actually, I'd rather talk to him about other things.

56:06Kevin Sinfield: So you told us really plainly, Kev, that when people are kind about you, you really struggle. And you said your biggest weakness is getting emotional in public. So when you get handed a night odd, you can't give that one back. How did you find out about it? Like through the post, which was lovely.

56:29Rob Burrow: We were actually going out for an evening meal. My wife and my youngest son, Sam, with us. And I was driving and Jane said, she grabbed the post as we, because the post didn't deliver like it used to be delivered, is it? So it was later in the day, this, and she grabbed the post and we set off and she said, I think you need to pull over. I said, well, I said, there's an important letter here for you. So, but yeah, very, very humbled. Do you know what? I'm absolutely made up that, like, we've been together we've been married 20 years in December and we've been together a long time I'm just so happy my wife's a lady like that's that's what I'm like more made up at

57:11Kevin Sinfield: what did she say then what did Jane say when you've

57:13Rob Burrow: no she's just like just really happy and it's a nice moment for the family and but yeah she's been there through everything the good the bad you know the running like like and I mentioned the training before like brutally it's like when I'm getting up at four in the morning to go and do a long run and like it's her who's getting up

57:33Kevin Sinfield: yeah

57:34Rob Burrow: and everything that comes with it throughout my whole playing career through all the running throughout all the difficulties and challenging moments we've had yeah she's the one constant who allows me to be me and knows how to get the best out of me and knows knows me well enough to say I understand that. I understand why he's going for a three-hour run now. I get it. I might be happy about it, but I get it, and off you go.

58:05Kevin Sinfield: Lady Jane Sinfield. Yes. Does it feel weird when you sort of roll it on your tongue, like Sir Kevin? It feels really weird when people I don't know,

58:20Rob Burrow: if I get an email and it's addressed Sir Kevin, or a letter now that's addressed Sir Kevin, it feels really really I'm like they've come to the wrong house or they've got the wrong email address it's really weird and then if I am somewhere and someone addresses me I'm like no please just Kev please like I ain't changed and I won't change I'm just just want to be Kev but it's really nice it's really nice

58:46Kevin Sinfield: and what about your mum and dad like they're two of the most humble people I've met how did they respond

58:51Rob Burrow: um yeah they were made up I think I've got an older brother and older sister they're proud of all three of us I know they are so

59:08Rob Burrow: but yeah I could sense down the phone that my mum was a bit teary so it was nice

59:17Kevin Sinfield: brilliant and what do you think Rob would have said if he could have been there and sort of been able to respond what do you think he'd have said to you?

59:25Rob Burrow: he'd be so happy I know he would he'd be so happy he called me Sir Kev a lot anyway so and then we shared a really special day when we both got our CBEs at Headingley at the stadium with Prince William and yeah it was a great moment I just think he'd be so happy he'd have that massive smile on his face and he'd be yeah so pleased I remember

59:56Kevin Sinfield: I remember Lindsay saying to me about she'd said to Rob if the situation had been reversed then it would have been you that would have been stricken with MND she asked Rob whether he'd have done the same in terms of the fundraising and the marathons and he said not a question no no chance

1:00:21Rob Burrow: so I did ask him a few times I think the difference was the deciding factor was the fact that I was number 13 and he was 7 and he wouldn't have run 30 marathons in a row but I reckon he'd have run 7 though Do you reckon? Yeah I do yeah

1:00:35Kevin Sinfield: Where do you keep like the you've got the MBE you've got the OBE the CBE and now the Nitewood you've got the full range where do you keep them?

1:00:46Rob Burrow: They're not out I couldn't tell you I've got an idea what room they're in but I couldn't tell you yeah I never thought it was right to display everybody's different aren't they yeah but if I'm going to put those sort of things up I should put the rugby up and I've chose chose not to I want home to be home and it's our sanctuary and the thing that's most important to me there and my wife and my boys so yeah it's everyone's different but no

1:01:20Kevin Sinfield: they're not on display I'm just seeing no eye will always refer to you Sir Kev Right So what's the daftest thing that's happened in seven years of this fundraising?

1:01:33Rob Burrow: There's lots of funny things Go on Right There's so many There are so many funny things The daftest thing was getting lost twice So we did We did the 101 mile run from Leicester to Leeds and we got lost twice Like Stupid o 'clock in the morning Like we ran through a graveyard somewhere in South Yorkshire. So I'd say that run was not 101 miles, it was 104 because we got lost. So there's stuff like that. Because this shows, this is us, right? We've got a lot better with our navigation skills. Turning up at the airport to fly back from Belfast two years ago, they had no record of us booked booked in the flight sorry booked on the flight they had no but his names we needed to be in I think we were flying into we were flying in I think we were flying into Edinburgh so we obviously had to get on this plane otherwise the following day would have been yeah and after a lot of head scratching and messing about we finally were allowed to get on this flight but there's stuff like you know stuck on the motorway coming from Bristol last year for six hours on our way to Sheffield there's there's been some really they're not daft moments they're like logistic problems where you go and then there's so many just funny things that happen just because effectively you've got a group of people on tour for a week and then you've got characters and personalities and just funny moments that are just unravelling.

1:03:22Rob Burrow: Almost at times, I know, I might be in the middle of one of the legs and I'm going to myself, that is hilarious, but I can't laugh now because I'm in too much pain, but I'm going to laugh about that tonight. Yeah.

1:03:36Kevin Sinfield: So when you close your eyes, when you've finished this seven consecutive fundraising events, when you close your eyes, what's the one memory that you think you'll hold on to? Shawshank Redemption, Andy Dufresne sat on his rooftop.

1:03:51Rob Burrow: His mates have just tied the roof and they're all sat there with a bottle of beer and he don't drink one. But he feels free again. That's the moment I have in my mind, just to feel free. To feel like, as a team, we've accomplished something that's more important than any of my rugby career. we had a bus trip back from London two or three years ago after finishing one of the challenges and it reminded me in many ways of a trip back from Wembley after a cup final and I lost enough of those but managed to win two and there's a journey where the team are just together in a bus and everyone's celebrating having a drink and that's probably the moment where it's my Andy Dufresne moment where I'm going.

1:04:44I'm just so happy for everybody,

1:04:47Rob Burrow: for what they've put in and we get to share in each other's company. I won't think about, times are healed, I won't think about some of the hills we ran up, some of the dark moments getting lost and all the things that have happened. I think of the moments where we are a team that are connected as one, happy and feeling fulfilled that

1:05:14Rob Burrow: we've been able to achieve something together and we've had a real purpose about us and we don't always get it right. I like to think when we don't get it right, we're quick to apologise and fix it and it's a very special team.

1:05:27Kevin Sinfield: And if there was one message that there's going to be people watching you over the next seven days, put yourself through this gruelling challenge, what's the one thing you would want them to know to do or to understand?

1:05:40Rob Burrow: Just do a little bit that's the message I try and give to so many people just do a little bit you don't have to run marathons you don't have to run ultra marathons you don't have to do crazy charity events but just do your little bit we spoke before about how you can help people in difficult moments just pick the phone up give someone a smile make someone a brew at work them small bits are what matter not the big bits are important of course they are right but the small bits when they're built up over a period of time make one hell of a big bit and if we all are willing to do one little thing for one person every single day just imagine how great we make our own nations and i know it's there damien right because i like i said i have seen how kind and generous people are now giving they are yeah and that's often been with money just do it with a bit of time smile, we're all busy we can all find excuses we can all sit on our settees and do nothing but the way society is now and the way we can work just do a little bit

1:06:46Kevin Sinfield: Now it's time for our quickfire questions and these are brought to you by our partner Vitality the life and health insurer that's proven to help you live up to five years longer through rewarding healthy living What are your three non-negotiable behaviours? Oof

1:07:02Rob Burrow: Honesty's right up there because I want to trust. I want to trust. So good or bad, news, it doesn't matter. Just I want honesty. Got to care. Got to look after each other. Courage. I'm not saying go and take a lot of crazy risk. I'm saying calculated risk. Follow your gut. If your gut's telling you something's off or something's right, follow it. That's the big thing I took from Rob when Rob was diagnosed. You've got to have some risk in your life. so they'd be my three. What's the greatest piece of advice you've ever received and why? To become a champion, you have to be a champion at home first.

1:07:41Rob Burrow: It's from my old coach, Brian McClellan. I always thought I lived that way, but couldn't articulate it, couldn't find a quote or a slogan. And it's so true. There's a difference between winning and being a champion in sport and in life. You can win once and fluke it. If you're going to be a champion, and you're going to win time and time and time again then I see a lot of champions who behave a certain way day after day after day and right at the heart of that is how they look after the families, the friends, people who are close to them I think if you want to win for a long period of time and become a champion then you have to be a good person you have to be What's your biggest strength?

1:08:24Rob Burrow: I would use the word edgy most people would describe it as stubborn I prefer edgy I think for whatever reason in difficult spots someone tells me I can't do something but I'm passionate about it then I'll find a way And how's that different from stubbornness? I think stubbornness is seemed it's viewed upon as being quite negative I'd like to think when I choose to be edgy is based out of trying to make a positive difference as opposed to I'll just show you and having almost trying to prove someone wrong is at the heart of it rather than just going I'm doing this because of the difference it'll make.

1:09:14Rob Burrow: There are so many people who come to me now and say I've got a challenge for you why don't you do this? Unless I'm passionate about it you don't grab me. So it can be the greatest challenge you've ever thought of but unless it come from there or there and there's lots where I've gone yeah I like that I'm going to do that but so there has to be a reason for me why and the edgy bit means is the bit that I think you can be stubborn and not see it through for me being edgy means I'll see it through

1:09:46Kevin Sinfield: what's your biggest weakness? saying no you struggle with that yeah

1:09:52Rob Burrow: I think there are so many worthy causes out there so many things that are important and so many things that are important to so many different people

1:10:04time

1:10:05Rob Burrow: having the right amount of time to be able to devote you know I work it might be different if I'm in my mid-60s and I retired or 70s and I retired and had all this time to give I'm conscious of my social battery conscious of like I'm quite shy and introverted so or put me in a room full of people at times, and it can take a lot out of me. So event after event after event is tough for me. I don't think people realise and understand that at times. They just think that. So saying no, I want to turn up to things and be able to be all in, rather than turn up just going, I have to do this. And it's important for me to have things in my life that I have to do, because if there's no difference between good and bad, how do you know what's good?

1:10:57Rob Burrow: So, yeah, I think saying no at times means people don't always get the best out. They might feel they do, but I don't always feel like I'm a 9 out of 10. I might be a 6 or a 5 and I'm going, well, they deserve more. But it's because I said yes to something that I shouldn't have said yes to.

1:11:18Kevin Sinfield: what advice would you give to a young Kevin just starting out

1:11:23Rob Burrow: celebrate your winter that's probably my easiest one to answer like my time as a player erm I didn't celebrate him enough I moved on too quickly and I don't regret it and if he had my time again I'd probably be exactly the same yeah because of how I am and who I am erm but I'd love to have been able to stay in the moment just a little bit longer and enjoy it yeah what's one habit that changed everything for you it was probably a decision I made when I was 11 I wanted to be a rugby league player it was probably the day when I kept in all them schoolboys at Wembley sat in the stadium watching Wigan v Castleford 1992 and going I want to be as a rugby player and I made a decision that day that I was going to do everything I could to see it through and if I weren't good enough that's no problem but I was determined I weren't going to be a bloke propping a bar up somewhere telling people shoulda woulda coulda and I suppose in many ways that then defined my behaviours my training habits how hard I worked my attitude towards things my mentality yeah it's probably me

1:12:39Kevin Sinfield: what's one goal that you've got that you haven't shared out loud

1:12:44Rob Burrow: I'd go back to this one and I have shared it, I want to find a cure for M &D. When I say that ain't me, that's scientists, researchers, that's global, that's not just UK based, it's the collaboration that needs to put together. But I see my role in this as trying to gather as much money and awareness as I can to be able to go, please, please do something with it in a positive way. And then we talked about level of care and how we make people feel it's wrapped all up into that. but I love us to cure M &D.

1:13:18Kevin Sinfield: And the final question of this brilliant chat, Kev, is what does high performance mean to you? Getting the best out of people.

1:13:28Rob Burrow: Caring for people. That'd probably be me, Damien. That's probably where I sit on it. And I don't think I'd list all different things and give you a big technical answer. It's just getting the best out of people. And probably getting the best out of me as well, understanding me, but to be able to get the best out of people, you've got to take them to a place they don't want to go sometimes and that brings some pain and distress and hurt so there has to be a level of care and love with it

1:13:56Kevin Sinfield: and high performance has to have that element too So you can find out more about living longer with Vitality at vitality.co.uk the life and health insurer that uses a behaviour change programme to incentivise healthy lifestyle choices well Kev that was incredible thank you very much cheers

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