Les Ferdinand: Football's Toxic Culture, Wage Battles, and Lessons from Newcastle and Spurs (E342)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance app. And I sat there for ages and I was sitting there and I was thinking, do you know what, wherever I've gone, I've just tried to do my best. And that's all you can do sometimes, do your best and hope your best is good enough. That is the voice of Les Ferdinand, a true Premier League icon. A man who has a unique journey from non-league football to becoming one of England's top strikers, all the way to the border and behind the scenes in the game. Along the way, just scoring 149 Premier League goals. He played for some of the biggest clubs in the country, including Newcastle United and Tottenham.

1:00but his time at QPR was seminal to the career that he enjoyed. I think it's fair to say Sir Leyes is a fitting nickname for this guy. Oh, absolutely, Jake. This is a rich, revealing and rewarding conversation. He talks to us around his observations on football today and almost the corrosive impacts of how much too much too soon can have on young players. He talks about growing up in the shadow of Grenfell and then going out to Turkey and what that taught him at a young age. He also shares with us the truth about how close he came to signing for Manchester United The real reason why he didn't Some of the incredible legends that he had a chance to play with And what was really wrong with the QPR dressing room That caused so many problems later in his career This is an incredible look at the truth behind the life of a football icon As we welcome to high performance Les Ferdinand

1:55Les, welcome to the show Thank you for having me on your show. It's nice to see you. Look, you've got such a unique perspective in the game that you've had so many years at the top level as a player. You've then been director of football. You've now stepped away for a short period so you can kind of have an overview of how football looks. How would you describe football to us in 2025? What's the state of the game? It's obviously certainly very different to what I was involved in and what I left. In terms of the state of the game, There's a lot of money in the game now. And I'm not sure whether people's ambitions are about playing football or people's ambitions are about becoming wealthy as players.

2:35I think the young players coming into the game now see football. And I don't think it's them. I think it's their parents. See them, see it as a way out. Most of us come from working class families. And football's now being seen as an opportunity to work yourself out of those opportunities. and I'm not sure whether players are doing it for the love of the game or doing it because they feel this could, you know, enhance their life. And what impact does that have on a young player coming through? Explain to us how what you've experienced with young players coming into the game now differs maybe to when you were first emerging.

3:09And I think I'll put that down to parents, to be honest with you, in terms of what I'm seeing now. You know, you go to a youth game and you look around the pitch and there's hundreds of parents there sort of like guiding their children. Not only, you know, not only the coaches are coaching these players, but the parents are coaching these players as well because the parents see, you know, unfortunately sometimes see these kids at their meal ticket and I'm not being disrespectful. You want the best for your kids. You know, when I was growing up, my parents just knew where I was. I never got involved.

3:41My dad knew nothing about football. My mum knew nothing about football. You know, my mum liked football. My dad didn't. my dad weren't really interested in football, but they could never give me advice about football. Whereas you've got parents nowadays who've never played the game, but seeing it, believe that they can give their kids advice and so the kids are following that advice rather than what the coaches are perhaps telling them. And what are they telling the kids? Well, whatever they think is the right coaching methods for their kids or where their kids should be going. What about on the financial side?

4:11Where are they getting involved where you're thinking you just don't understand football? Well, in terms of that side is, you know, I had many occasions where parents were coming in to me and thinking their kids were valued, their value was a lot more than what it actually was. And just trying to get them to that stage where they think everybody's earning, everyone thinks everyone's earning£100 ,000 a week or£20 ,000 a week. And that's not the case in football. You know, you've got to take the stepping stones to get you to doing that. and you've seen a lot of the younger kids coming through and contracts being thrown at these younger kids at an early age and some of them don't even make it at the end of it.

4:52But you've got the bigger clubs who might throw a big contract at a young player at a young age and I think you've started his growth before he's even started when you do that. Because? Because you need something to achieve to, you need something to aspire to. And when I was growing up and I saw the older players, it wasn't about what they were earning it was more about what they were doing you know I wanted to be I wanted to be that player that played in week in week out and one of the things I used to do when I was at Spurs as a coach when I went in there with Chris Ramsey and Tim Sherwood and we were doing the under 23s I'd listen to some days Tim would take the talk some days Chris would, some days I would at the beginning of the game I used to look around and change rooms and I'd let Tim or whatever or Chris say what they had to say and I'd say to them, how many of you in there are professional footballers?

5:48And they'd all think it was a trick question. The first time I did it all thought it was a trick question. So no one put their hand up and I was like, come on, there's professional footballers in there, aren't there? You're a professional footballer. And it was slowly, the hands would go up and I'd go, let me explain something to you. You're not a professional footballer. You've got the title but you're not a professional footballer till you're playing week in, week out in someone's first team. That's when you're a professional footballer. Until then, you've got a title, but you need to earn the right to be doing that, to be telling people I'm a professional footballer.

6:18Don't get it caught up in your head too early that you're a professional footballer because you're not until you're playing week in, week out. And what was the reaction when you posed that question? You know, it's interesting because now you see some of those players that were in that group and fortunately for us in the group that we had, virtually all of them went on to careers. Not all in the Premier League, but all of them went off to careers elsewhere. where sometimes when you see those boys now and they talk about some of the things that myself, Chris and Tim said to them, they're going, you know, I wish I'd listened a little bit more.

6:46I wish I'd taken that on board a little bit more. And, you know, so it does resonate. And what does it do for a young player when the money is in that pocket really early in terms of the hunger? There's some players out there who want to be top of their game and want to be the best they can possibly be. and so the money will never affect them. Right. And then there's others that it does, unfortunately. And when you start earning the type of monies that can be earned in football, you can sometimes lose the desire. Because you think, because you're earning that money, you think, maybe I've made it.

7:23I'm at the top of where I need to be. And it's just not football. Well, I think any walk of life, when you're earning decent money, normally to earn the top money means you've achieved and you've got to the place where you need to be and what keeps you going after that. So would you tell us how you've learned to nurture that intrinsic motivation, that desire just to focus on mastering your craft rather than just focusing on the extrinsic rewards that come from that? I think I was fortunate in terms of the year that I was born in and the generation that I came through. There was no social media.

8:03There were no influences out there. when I say influences, the late Ray Wilkins was someone who came in, he was always immaculately dressed, he was always professional. And that's what I wanted to follow. I thought, you know what, that's how I want to be, you know, this is how I want to be. I want to, you know, I want to be perfect. He used to come in, the way he trained, the way he prepared himself, the way he looked after himself afterwards. You know, those were the things I looked at. It weren't the material things that Ray had that I wanted, you know, it was the way he conducted himself. And for me, I used to look up to the older players and see what they used to do in terms of how they prepared themselves and I wanted to be the best I could possibly be what came with that at the end of it came with it I wasn't doing it for what the end goal was the end goal was to be the best I could be as a footballer score goals on a regular basis and be in that week in week out team that's where I wanted to be On today's episode with Les Ferdinand And we speak in detail about making smart choices, but not just in football, in life.

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9:48Download the XTB app or go to xtb.com. And what were the behaviors that you were seeing from the likes of Ray Wilkins and others that you thought, wow, okay, that's the level? I would call that professionalism. You know, when I'd gone out to Turkey and spent a year out in Turkey on loan, and when I came back to the QBR team, there was Ray Wilkins, there was Peter Reeds, there was all these guys, Nigel Spackman. And these boys had played, you know, they'd played at the highest level. And so if you're not sucking that in and seeing what they're doing on a training pitch, they end up. Kenny Sanson was there.

10:26And I remember, I wasn't always a good long-distance runner. you know the sprints I was great at but long distance I was like I'm not the best there you know I'll cruise at the back with the group and you know Kenny Samson was like nah come with me and he used to go just put one foot in front of the other and you know it sounds simple but just the level of encouragement that those guys gave to you is what you wanted to do when you became a professional footballer and I was like yeah because I'm centre forward and I remember when I went to Newcastle and I left QBR I remember the first few days of pre-season, you know, it was quite light and then you go into the long distance running and stuff like that.

11:07And I always remember Kevin Keaton coming over to me and saying, I knew he was quick but I didn't realise he was as good at the running as he was. And I said, look, I ain't a good long distance runner but all I do, I'll give you my best. I'll do the best I can in long distance. I'm not going to be number one. I'm not going to be up there and beat the best runners but I'm going to give you... And he goes, because normally as a centre forward, he said, I normally see centre forwards right at the back, you know, just driving along. I said, I used to be that, but now I'm not that anymore. See, your journey though, Les, is fascinating to me.

11:35You started in non-league, didn't you? So what was your aspirations in non-league football? Because you're not necessarily surrounded by these uber professionals like Ray Wilkins. Yeah, in non-league football, and the honest truth is, I never, ever believed I was going to be a professional footballer. I was playing non-league football because I just enjoyed football. You know, I went from school, playing at school, to playing outside of school in youth clubs and then progressed to sort of like a place called Viking Sports then onto the non-league scene where, you know, I was playing and was just hoping to play at the highest level of non-league football I could possibly go to, never thinking I was going to be a professional footballer.

12:18And it was only when I switched from playing for Southall and I went to Hayes. I had six months at Hayes and there was a lot of interest from QBR because I'd gone from one division, two divisions up and was still scoring goals. So it caught the attention of a couple of people. But you were never exposed to what we now know today as the academy system. So what do you think you gained from not being part of that world? Well, I was playing men's football at a young age. So at 15, I was being kicked about by grown men. And, you know, just had to toughen up really early. I didn't go through. And I probably missed that, when I say that development stage that you perhaps get in an academy where they'll probably work on your touch and they'll work on all the little bits and pieces that you need, your fundamentals that you need to work on.

13:05I probably missed that part of my education. I just went into raw sort of like football and sort of like combat from a young age. So I missed that nurturing part. I just went straight into, straight in at the deep end, I suppose. So you missed the nurturing part, but playing the men's game at 15 gave you something else. What did that give you? Gave me a bit of a fight, bite, determination, and kind of knew how to look after myself. So when I went into, it was really strange, when I went into QBR, when I first went into QBR and I started playing in the reserve games and I was playing against guys my age or younger, I found it really easy in terms of it wasn't as physical.

13:47You know, it was a bit more technical. It wasn't physical than that. And when I say the nurturing, I probably missed out on the technical side of it, not the nurturing side. I missed out on the technical side rather than the... So when I went in, the aggressive side of the nature that I was playing in wasn't quite in the reserve team. So then it was about working on the technical stuff when you arrived at QPR. What was the culture like at Queen's Park Rangers back in 1987 when you first walked in? Okay, okay. So you've got to understand this is in the heart of West London. Yeah. I went to school around the corner from QPR, so I went past the stadium virtually every single day of my schooling life.

14:26And when I turned up, there was Leroy Sr. There was no other guys of colour in the team. It was Leroy Sr. I got rid of Leroy Sr. So I was the only person of colour at QBR. And it kind of threw me a little bit because I'm thinking across the road from QBR is the white city estate that houses thousands and thousands of ethnic minorities and there was none at QPR. It was just a real, real different sort of environment that I was going into. But I was going into a professional environment and that was the real difference. I'd gone into training twice a week and playing on a Saturday to train in every single day.

15:06And what was the reason why you were in an area where there would have been a lot of ethnic minorities and one black player in the QPR team? How was that possible? I don't know. I really don't know how that was possible. We had a school that... Our school players used to get scouted by Southampton and we were literally around the corner from QPR. Dennis Wise, who I was in class with at school, was on the books of Southampton. We had a player called Bruce Rowe who was on the books of Southampton. George Lawrence, many, many years ago. George Lawrence, who came out of Christopher, was on the books of Southampton.

15:47None of the players, the good players that we had in our school team were on the books in QBO. And what did it do for you as the only player of colour in that team? You know, listen, I was thrust into coming from non-league football into professional football and all it was about was about me being the best version of myself I could possibly be and trying to learn, trying to understand and trying to grow. And was there any influences that took you under their wing at that early stage and showed you the way to operate? In terms of players, I was coming in from non-league football and I suppose a few of the players were probably looking at me and thinking, who's this?

16:28Who's this kid coming out in non-league football? But I came in and Sammy Lee was the first person I bumped into. He was another one that was at QPR at the time. And I remember going for my first game and him coming out of the doors of South Africa Road the coach was outside he came out and he was the first person to greet me and he said welcome to QBR son and I wish you all the best in your career and stuff like that and that really sort of like resonated with me because this is a guy that I'd hear I worshipped you know I mean seeing him play for Liverpool and so on and so forth and he was the first person that came out and greeted me and was like welcome to professional footballer and I was like wow okay this is Sammy Lee like you know it was all a little bit surreal for me and it took me a while it took me a while I think what happens, and again, I don't think this is just football.

17:21I think sometimes in life, you go through that imposter syndrome. Am I really supposed to be here? Yeah, I was enjoying my football at Hayes, but am I really supposed to be here? And then when you're seeing other players doing certain things and you're thinking, right, am I supposed to be in this environment? You start questioning yourselves. And that's what I did right at the beginning. And that reminds me of when we interviewed Phil Neville. he spoke about for a lot of young players when they first go. They almost play cautiously or they go into their shell. Whereas he said, the ones that go on to become great are the ones that go and impose themselves quite early on.

17:57How did you make that leap to eventually just go in and be yourself rather than be a pale version of who you were? I think, you know, Phil saying that as well, and he's coming from an academy perspective, So you're actually in that environment on a daily basis. I was coming from the wilderness in terms of, you know, coming in from non-league football into professional football. And it probably really didn't happen for me until I went out on loan to Besiktas in Turkey. Gordon Mill, who was the manager out there at the time, was looking for a centre forward. He felt they were a centre forward away from winning the league.

18:36And Jim Smith said, look, we've got this young man who we think's got a bright future, but we're not sure which way it's going to go at this moment in time. And I wasn't. And they told you that, that they weren't sure which way it was going to go? No, they hadn't. It was Gordon that had told me that. I'd just come in, I'd signed, I think, a three and a half year contract. I'd seen out the remainder of that first year, and in that second year, I was in and out, I had a few injuries, and my body getting used to the rigours of everyday training. And how big was self-doubt at that point, when you weren't, suddenly scoring 15 goals in the first half of the season and you weren't in the team every week and you were picking up injuries.

19:15That's where the imposter syndrome kicks in, where you think, am I really supposed to be here? You know, am I at the level that this is at? You know, can I get to this level? And because I'd had no reference point to it, because I'd not been in that environment before, I was like, yeah, you doubt yourself. And then, like I said, when the opportunity came for me to go out to Turkey, I thought, well, what else could go wrong here? You know, just take myself away from my environment, where my mates are and everybody else's, and just go and concentrate on football for a year. So what was that like then?

19:51What was that like? Yeah, it was different. Being the first British player to ever go out and play in Turkey. Gordon Mill was able to spend a bit of time with me because I was the only British player. And I remember sort of like the first couple of training sessions, he said to me, I think I'm onto something here. and he said I don't think Jim Smith realises what he's let go here and I remember that we went out to we flew into Istanbul and he said we're going to have a little training session with the the first team so you'll get to meet the players and so on and so forth and so I go I go to we go to a hotel we have a little bite to eat and he said have a bit of a rest and we're going to go in a couple of hours so I've got a bit of rest got ready got my boots and everything so we go to the stadium and I thought we're going to the training ground and meet the thing.

20:38He goes, no, what is it? It's going to be at the stadium and you just, you know, I introduce you to the players. We just do a little session on a pitch just to get your legs going and stuff like that. Turn up, so there was like 30 ,000 people there, you know, to watch the first day's training and see all the new signings and stuff like that. And I always remember, I was like, you know, they had such a high regard for English football at the time, British football, that I got myself in the middle of the group of players going out and they kept pulling me out, pulling me to the back. right? And they say, no, you're coming out as the last player, like, you know what I mean?

21:10And then I would tilt myself back into the middle as they were going up. No, no, no, they kept pulling me out going to the back. And I remember you used to come up the stairs to come out onto the pitch, come up these stairs. And as the players were coming out, a big roar and everyone was like, so anyway, I'm the last player and obviously they do the announcement and blah, blah, and this massive cheer goes up. They give me this dove to hold and what they do, they give a dove to a few players that they think are going to be special players for them next season so they give you a dove and you run to the all the players are on the centre circle so you run to the centre circle and when you get the centre circle you let the dove go and it flies away so they give me a dove and so I throw the dove up and it just went bang and hit the deck and so I'm like I'm thinking yeah this ain't quite good it's just an omen it's not quite okay so I picked it up I threw it up even higher alright did the same thing it just went and hit the deck now everything's gone silent so like the kit man who ran onto the pitch and he pulled the wings apart he went 30 try now so I threw it up in the air and it flew away then everyone started cheering I was going cool I could have been on the plane I'm quicker than I realised but you know that was my my start to it and then we we trained trained in front of all the supporters then we all went and had a dinner and the next day we was travelling to Germany because we was going to pre-season.

22:36And then I scored in our first game, our first pre-season game. And it was there in Gordon-Millsford. I'm not sure Jim Smith knows what he's let go here. And then I just went on to have a... And what did that do for you? Because we've seen lots of research about something called the Pygmalion effect, Les, where it goes back to a psychologist in the 60s that would go and tell teachers that kid's special. And what they found is that even though there was no evidence the kid was special, the kid tended to blossom because the teacher just nurtured them in a different way. What did hearing God and Meln say that?

23:09I think we've got something in your hair to do for you. I mean, it was someone putting their faith in me and I was thinking almost like, I can't really let them down. Come all this way. And, you know, I'm one of these people, I always think, you know, when something comes up and someone says, do you want to do something? I always think, what's the worst case scenario? And I looked at it and I thought, what's the worst case scenario? I could go there and not enjoy it. if I have to come back and they hold my registration, I don't play football for a year. That's the worst case scenario. But I could go there and absolutely love it.

23:41And so what I did, I immersed myself in the culture. I didn't go there thinking, this is not like English food. This is not like what my mum cooks. This is not like what this, that and the other. I just immersed myself in what they were doing and how they were doing it and thought, I'm just going to get my head down there and play football. And Gordon was a massive help to that. And so when I came back from Turkey, I had this renewed feeling that it didn't matter where I went, I felt I could play, I could be part of what was going on at QPR. And what was your relationship like with imposter syndrome in those early days at Besiktas?

24:16If you were nervous playing in a QPR team, what were you like in front of 30 ,000 fans at training? I mean, I'd gone from playing in front of probably a few hundred people on a Tuesday afternoon in a reserve team game to 30 ,000 people where the expectation from these people were, he's come out there, he's come out there, it weren't quite, it weren't a Premier League then, it was like, you know, Division One. He's come out of a League One in England, so he's got to be better than the rest of the players we've got here. And that was their mentality. And then it was almost like, well, I need to be.

24:49You know, and like I said, I just hit the ground running. We had, we had the pre-season games and when you, when you come back, when we came back from pre-season they have a little cup competition between the three Istanbul teams and I scored in the first game against Fenerbahce so that was like straight away it's just scoring against your local rivals so you instantaneously become sort of like okay with the supporters and then I scored against Galatasaray so it was and we won the cup President's Cup right at the start of the season and then we just went on a run pretty similar to what I did with Newcastle when I went to Newcastle where we you know early part of the season we were winning games for fun you know If we go forward to the modern day, we've got people like Bellingham out in Madrid now or Conor Gallagher, Atletico, or Scott McTominay out in Napoli.

25:38So we're starting to see footballers from these shows go abroad. But you had that really interesting comment there about you really immersed yourself into it. What were the benefits of you doing that? I think I got accepted by the Turkish players very quickly. So I didn't go there and say, right well I can't speak Turkish so you can only communicate with English they gave me an interpreter and I tried my best to and Gordon Mill Gordon Mill's done a book a little while probably a year ago and I read the book the other day and one of the things he says in there he says one of the funniest things is I became best friends with a Gigi that couldn't speak English and I couldn't speak Turkish and he said and all we used to do was laugh all the time and he couldn't understand what the conversation must have been for us two to be talking and laughing all the time And that's what I did.

26:26I just went in their training rooms and just tried to be one of them. And like I said, whenever they said, you're coming out for food or you're coming out for food, I'd go and I'd go to places where perhaps a lot of people wouldn't go. Do you know what I mean? And that just endeared me to the players around me. And then you went back to QPR. I'm imagining that when you went back there, the imposter syndrome was well and truly gone. Am I right? Yeah, without a shadow of a doubt, yeah. So what was that period of your career like? So that was, I'd come back and unfortunately, I say unfortunately I don't know if it was unfortunate unfortunate for me Jim Smith had left and gone to Newcastle Trevor Francis had taken over as manager later in France had taken over as manager so I came back got joined joined into training he wanted to see what I was like and stuff like that and I always remember whenever I see Peter Reid he always talks about it he said all of a sudden this kid comes onto the pitch I come onto the pitch and we're playing 11 v 11 and he's thinking where the hell has this kid come from who is this kid like that and he said, I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

27:26And then, you know, Ray Wilkins come in and Ray Wilkins said to me, and again, he said, you've got all the abilities in the world to go to the top. Whether you take that on is down to you. But he said, I ain't seen anything like it. And he said, you can go all the way to the top. And I was like, okay. You know, I'm a little bit flattery, but I just believed that now I belonged. I felt like I could play in the first division I could play anywhere and I felt like I just had a renewed confidence in myself believing that I could score goals in a professional club in front of 30 ,000, 40 ,000 people whatever it may be in 10 ,000 people whatever it was I just felt I could go and play football Can you remember what you were earning at that time?

28:13So when I came back from Turkey well I was when I signed I was in like 350 quid a week And then coming back from Turkey, look at you laughing at that. No wonder you're still hungry. Coming back, yeah, so like they would have given me a new contract. I can't remember wanting to, but it wouldn't have been loads. So still in the hundreds, not in the thousands a week, right? So it's still not life-changing money. You could probably still earn more if you went and got a great job in the city or went somewhere else, right? It wasn't going to change your life, that money. So you still have to put the work in.

28:50And I'm really interested in what the culture was like in football in those days. You know, you hear a lot of talk now about culture is very different. It's a much softer environment. Yeah. What was it like in those days? How did people let you know the standard expected on the training round? Okay, so in training, players, you know, I've been in environments where there's been punch-up because people are not doing what, you know, it's quite an emotional game and people want to win. If you play 5th side, you play 7th side, you play 11th side, people want to win. And if you're not doing what you're supposed to do, then it can become heated at times.

29:29I was very, very fortunate in terms of when I came back to QBR, I've worked under some great coaches in my career, but a fella called Bobby Campbell came into QBR. And I always remember this. he would shout my name like you wouldn't believe to the point where the boys at the club were saying at some stage Liz is going to have to chin him really yeah he's being critical critical if we play the game of football we play 11v11 or whatever it was my name was being bellowed out my name was being bellowed out what sort of things was he saying oh you move your ass here you move your ass here, you do this, you do this.

30:18And it got to a stage where even when I used to play reserve games, my dad would come and watch the reserve games at Loftus Road. And he'd sit in a stand on the South Africa road stand, he'd sit in a stand and he'd go, why is this geezer running calling your name? He said, I come every week and all I hear is your name. And I actually loved, I actually loved Bobby. He's a great fella. And I remember him pulling me one day and he said, son, He said, I've heard rumours that, and Bobby was a hard man. Bobby was a hard man. And he said, I've heard rumours that you might be looking to knock me out. And he said, and you might do that.

30:58He said, but I want you to understand something. The reason why I belly your name out is because I think you can go to the top. People that I don't think can go to the top, I don't bother with. Which is, I think you've got everything. You've got every attribute to be a top player in this division. and straight away went okay like that and he said I just want you to know if you did try to knock me out I would have to fight with you it is an interesting insight though into your temperament as well here because it's other players saying I'm surprised you don't want to knock him out it's your dad going I'm so annoyed I hear your name being yelled constantly my dad wasn't annoyed he just couldn't understand it he was going how come you all but it sounds like you were quite sanguine and quite relaxed with this You weren't getting as annoyed as the other lads around you.

31:46No, because, listen, I knew it was happening. I knew he was shouting my name all the time. And I was like, why's Bobby? And it was almost like, you know when you can get picked on? It was almost like, I think now people would go, I'm being picked on. Do you know what I mean? And Bobby would be thrust up in front of HR. You know, I could have gone and made a complaint. But there was something in me that I was thinking, no, this is not, you know what I mean? This is not him picking on me. And if it is him picking on me, I can stand up for myself. do you know what I mean I weren't going to get caught up in that you know yeah I'm going to knock him out and this thing no it wasn't but I think there's a there's a sort of something that's been unsaid so far is actually the power of resilience for you because you're at a young age playing non-league and you're not getting frustrated and annoyed there are other people who are professional footballers you're accepting where you are you go into the QPR dressing room and you're the only player of colour in that dressing room and it sounds like you accept it and you get on with your job you go to the Schick-Tas and you're thrust in front of 30 ,000 people having barely played professional football and you accept it and deal with it.

32:48You go back to QPR and you've got a coach constantly bellowing your name and while other people are getting a bit frustrated, you're accepting it. This ability to kind of deal with what was in front of you at that time and not let it derail you sounds to me like a bit of a superpower. I say superpower, it's just what it was. You know, growing up, you deal with situations, you know. From a young age, I was dealing with situations. that, you know, of course you could fly off the handle, but that's not going to solve the situation. And what had happened in your home life, in your upbringing, that had equipped you for living like this?

33:22I suppose, you know, my dad left home when I was five. Always had a good relationship with my dad, but my dad left home, so I kind of became the man of the house at sort of like a young age. Do you know what I mean? I looked after my mum, looked after my sister. I felt that was my role, that was my responsibility. So, you know, yeah, there was a lot of resilience growing up. Do you know what I mean? I grew up on a council estate. I was saying earlier on that where the Grand Four Fire was is where I grew up most of my life. For the first five years, I lived in Labrogrove and then we moved to the Lancaster West Estate where the Grand Four Fire is.

33:52So I had some real good times growing up. But yeah, you had to know how to look after yourself. What were the incidents that you just hinted at then where you learned to walk away or turn the other cheek rather than get involved? It wasn't really walk away. I could back my corner when I needed to back my corner. But it was, listen, I wanted to be a professional footballer. I wanted to be the best I could. And if someone was saying to me, the standards are not good enough, then it was down for me to improve myself. Not go against it and go, what are you talking about? Because I didn't know it. I can be critical of something when I know it.

34:28If I don't know it, and you've been the, Rick Campbell had been a manager himself, he'd been a player himself. So he knew what the standards were. So I can fight against it. I can go, yeah, what are you talking about? But if he knows it, my job is to try and take advice off of that. I mean, that reminds us that when we spoke to Gordon Ramsay, that was his golden rule was take feedback professionally, not personally. Yeah. So what was the best piece of advice that you received in these early years that you felt made you an even better professional? Cool. There's so many clippets of people saying different things to me, you know.

35:05But I suppose when Bobby said that to me, that resonated with me. The fact that he said, look, you could go all the way to the top. Ray Wilkins saying that to me as well. You know, those little bits, but, you know, you need to apply yourself, you know, apply yourself to your craft and try to be the best you can every day. Don't come in here and just train. When you leave here every day, and I used to say this to the players, when you leave here every day, you should have learned something more than what you've had when you came in today. And what about you in a circle then? Because growing up on those estates, often there can be some malign influences if we call them that.

35:43And as you start to develop as a footballer of some reputation, you know, your profile increases. What happened to your inner circle, the people that you surrounded yourself with? I think early on in my career, certainly early when I first saw me at QBR, I was still living with my mum on the estate and I tried to remain the same person. So I didn't want any of my friends to think because I'd become a professional footballer, I'd changed. And as you get older, what you realise is the more successful you become, the better things start to go for you. You don't change. People change towards you. And that was probably the biggest thing I kind of found with my mates.

36:33How did they change? In a circle. Just, it became very, very different. You know, we'd go out together and it wasn't, everything was light on me now because I was a professional footballer. You know, so where I had mates, we would go out and do things before and blah, blah, blah. We'd all chip in, whatever. No, no, it was all down to you and it was all down to me. And so my mates changed towards me rather than me change as a person. And they would probably say to you, Les has changed. but I just kept noticing that things weren't the same anymore. And listen, again, it's not because I'm a professional footballer but you find, I always say you can't, I've gone through my career and probably there's about five people who I would call on a regular basis.

37:18Loads of acquaintances but very few friends. I just think that's true of life. I don't think that's, you know. There's one boy in particular that we lived on the same estate and I speak to him every now and again. Jose, you know, we grew up together. It might help that he's a QBR fan, but I still speak to him. You know, we grew up on the estate together. Unfortunately, he lost his brother and his sister-in-law in the fire. But yeah, I speak to him on a regular basis. But the rest of that circle of friends, as you get older, you drift away. And so, and that's what happened. And this was a period in your career then where the goals started to flow.

37:56The fame started to come, I imagine. The pay rises also started to come. and I'm interested in how that didn't change you as a person. Or maybe there was a period where you thought, actually, maybe people had to bring you down a peg or two. Or did that not happen? I don't think there's anyone that you will come across that, who knows me, who's come across me, who said, would ever say to you that they had to bring me down a peg or two. Because if someone said that to you, I'd be so disappointed. Really? Yeah, I'd be so disappointed. Because I was taught from a very young age, and my granddad used to say this, the reverberate my granddad.

38:39He always used to say to me, he said, son, let me explain something to you. There's no one in life that's better than you. And I was like, I know you're better, but hang on. There's no one in life that you're better than. So treat everybody with respect. And hopefully they'll treat you with the same respect. And that's how I've lived my life. it don't matter how much money I earn how much money I don't have when I say good morning to someone it's not because I want something from them it's not because I think you're a higher status or anything I say good morning because I think it's the right thing to do if I say good afternoon to someone because I think it's the right thing to do so if anyone came to you and said oh they had to bring me down a peg or two I'd be so disappointed So in many ways this upbringing that you had with a great relationship with your dad but your dad not around so you wanted to be the man of the house growing up in a pretty tough part of London having a male role model like your granddad giving you advice, getting challenged early on in your career and being pushed, all of these things meant that when the success finally came, it sounds like you were kind of equipped for this moment.

39:36Can you remember when at QPR you thought, okay, I'm the guy here now, here we go? Cool. None of the lads would let me do that. Explain, what do you mean? Was there not a culture where you could be the main guy? Listen, I'll score it. When you get to the point where you're scoring goals on a regular basis and you're seen as, you know, probably one of the first on the team sheet, then I suppose you automatically demand that status. And then, you know, I got to a point where when people wanted interviews, it was me they wanted interviews with. So I got to that point, but the boys in the changing rooms, like Clive Wilson was one of my best pals, he'd never let me get like that, do you know what I mean?

40:21And he said I was out to dinner with him and a few friends the other day, and they were talking I said, Clive was like I used to room with Clive and this, that he was a good player and so on and so on and he turned around and he went yeah, Les was our superstar and I thought he was joking because he's always playing the jackass but he went I thought he goes, no, no, no he said, he was our superstar he guaranteed us 20 goals a season and we knew if we had that once we had that we were surviving in the Premier League or the League One and but when I was playing they never allowed me to believe that I was there and I mean you say when did it kind of like the turning point happen and when you say turning point I suppose at one stage someone wanted to give me a car as a sponsored car I remember it was a Porsche 911 it was a fella called Andrew Andrew Dowsett wanted to give me this Porsche as a sponsored car and the club said no you can't have it I went why they went no because it's not fair on all the other players and I went that's not my fault is it?

41:30They're not scoring the girls aren't scoring and to be fair I kind of like saw reason to it and I understood it and I didn't as much as I wanted the Porsche 911 I didn't get a blind in the end but as much as I wanted it I realised it probably weren't the right thing for QBR at the time in terms of the culture we had the environment we had and I just went along with it you know I wasn't I weren't going to throw my toys out the pram and go alright this, this, this and this. Well, as one of the leaders within that dressing room, at the time, QPR were punching well above their weight in terms of Premier League status.

42:02How would you describe the culture that you were part of creating? Like I said, it was an environment where we demanded the best out of each other. And, you know, Andy Sinton, who's an ambassador at QPR now and works there, he was one of, and we often spoke about, you know, when I was here as a sporting director and stuff, we'd speak to people and we often spoke about the fact that if he didn't cross a ball he was a winger if he didn't cross a ball I'd let him know that he hadn't crossed the ball and if he'd have crossed the wall and I didn't get on the end of it he'd let me know that he's put the ball in the area where I should be on the end of it and so it was a culture where we demanded the best out of everybody we knew the only way we could stay in that division was each individual giving their best to that cause and if we could do that we had a great chance of staying in the Premier League and that's what we had.

42:56Even when the young boys were coming through, like the likes of Andrew Impey, the likes of Trevor Sinclair and young players like that coming through, they bought into what we were doing. It was, when I look back on my career, it was a fantastic time. We had a good group of players, very good players, but it weren't just the fact they were good players, they were applying themselves in a way that got us to where we needed to be. and when did you first hear that Newcastle United were interested well that's interesting because we again you go back in the early periods of the Premier League as a centre forward as a winger as any position on the pitch if you started the season off well and you were doing really well any of the big clubs could come in and take you away and that would derail the season that that particular club was having whether it be a QBR, whether it be a Southampton, because we were all in that sort of like same mould.

43:55So this you're talking about before a transfer window here, when at any time a big club could just come and take a great player, yeah? And that's why the transfer windows came in, because they were saying it weren't fair on the smaller clubs, because these bigger clubs were coming in, derailing the player that was doing so well, decided to put the transfer windows in. So I'd had on numerous occasions clubs. So at one stage, Liverpool showed an interest. At one stage, Man United showed an interest. When you say showed an interest, how close did either of those come? The Man United one was very close.

44:31Ray Wilkins had left QPR, gone to Crystal Palace. And he was at Crystal Palace. And one Sunday, I got a call from him saying, look, just had a long conversation with Sir Alex. and Sir Alex wanted to know about your character. He said, I didn't even talk to him about your football. He knew you as a player, but wanted to know about your character and whether you would settle in Manchester. Because I think back then, and even now, whenever there's a player down south and one of the teams up north on him, they are going, ah, he wants to stay down south. He won't settle up north and this, that and the other.

45:02And that's what was being said about me. And I remember sort of like Ray calling me saying, look, they're going to make an offer tomorrow. How did that feel? I still weren't sure. it's Sir Alex Ferguson and Man United I wasn't sure what if what Ray was saying was true right right right so he said they're going to make an offer tomorrow and then when they make the offer you can have a word with the chairman so I said okay he said and I'll know when they've made the offer so I got the call Man United made the offer so I called the chairman I said chairman Man United he goes yeah how do you know and I said when the secretary told me he went which one I went I'm going to tell So anyway, Jerry Francis resigned because he speaks to Jerry and says to Jerry, look, there's his interest in going.

45:51Because he asked me was I interested? I said, yeah, of course. So, okay, spoke to Jerry. Jerry resigned. What, because you were going to go to Man U? I went to a dinner with Jerry. I went to dinner with Jerry. I say went to dinner. We did a talk at a dinner probably about three, four years ago now. Probably longer than that, but it feels like three or four years ago we was at dinner together he asked me to do a dinner for him and we went to the and he tells the story and he said like he resigned because he'd already told the club the minute they sell me it was the time he was going to resign I often asked I asked him I said why did you think that he said because I didn't think we'd have anyone that could score us 20 goals in a season and so he resigned chairman says what that day?

46:34a couple of days later within that did you know at the time like he's quit because you're thinking of leaving? yeah Wow That's pressure on your shoulders He'd already said it Gerry'd already said it Right So the chairman comes back And he says Well I can't lose my manager And my star striker In the same week can I And I went No no I get that And he says Leave it with us Let's just see where we can go with this And I always remember The Man United had said They tried before And each time QBR keeps saying At the end of the season Come and see us at the end of the season But they wanted me For the second part Of the Champions League Which So I had to be signed By the end of I think it was November just before the end of December I had to be signed to be able to play the second part of the Champions League so they said you can't tell us at the end of the season because that wouldn't interest us so that's why this happened anyway the chairman goes the chairman sort of leaves it a couple of days and he calls me and he says look there's I've been speaking to the board members and we've got an idea we think the person to come back to this football club maybe Ray Wilkins what do you think he said the sport was a lover that the supporters absolutely love it, you know, because they loved Ray as a player and the way he conducted himself and so on and so forth.

47:43I mean, they may not have loved it now, but at the time, I thought it was going to, it was a great choice. I said, they'll love it. So I go, all right, we're going to try and do that deal. So anyway, a couple of days go by, get a call saying, great news. Ray decided to come back. I went, oh, that's brilliant. And he went, I don't think you're going to think it's that brilliant. I went, why's that? He said, he's only coming back under one condition, that you don't go. We're not allowed to sell you. Right? So, so anyway, Ray comes through the door, fanfare, and I'm the first person to knock on his door.

48:16And I, I kid you not, I never knocked on any, I've only knocked on two managers' doors in my whole career. So I knocked on Ray's door and I said to him, Fraser, you're the one that called me and said, and I remember his words and I'll never forget it as long as I live. When he, when he ended the conversation with me about Man United, his words were, when the best team in the land comes calling, you've got to go. And he said, there's no QBR supporter that would deny you the opportunity to go and play for Man United. Those were his last words to me. So he comes through the door, I knock on his door and I go in and he goes, yeah, I was expecting this.

48:52Right? Yeah, I was expecting this visit. I was sat there, I was going, hang on, you're the one that's called me. You said when the best team in the land comes knocking, you've got to go. I said, you've got to go. He's going, just taught you the most important lesson in life, son. I said, what's that? He said, you look after number one. Oh my gosh. But surely at that point, you can throw your toys out the pram and say, no, this isn't happening. Man United have come in. I'm going. I had a notion about that. And I've seen it a lot of times where players have done that. They've thrown their toys out the pram to get moved to a club and it's never turned out the way they wanted it to.

49:32so I'm a firm believer in life and what's meant to be will be and so you know I call him the late great Ray Wilkins I never you know there was I think the papers found out about something had gone on because they were saying that I was miserable and there was a couple of papers that run the story that I had an opportunity to go somewhere and Ray knocked it on the head and I was remembering it's there was a there was a couple I because we played West Ham I scored two goals and the headline was Les Miserable, right? And he'd come out saying, does he look miserable to you? Because I'm celebrating when I score the goals and stuff like that.

50:09He said, you keep saying he's miserable. Does he look, he just scored two goals. Does he look miserable? You know what I mean? He started to get the umper better. But like, you know, it was what it was. What did that period teach you about the game? When he said, you look after number one first, you realise when things are going great, you need to kind of like make hay while the sun shines. And the other thing is, you know, when clubs decide they've had enough of you, they get rid of you, don't matter what. So, you know, strike while the iron's hot. And I perhaps didn't do that. And like you said, I didn't throw my toys out of the pan.

50:46Part of the reason why I didn't throw my toys out of the pan was because I felt QBR had been good to me. They'd given me this opportunity in my life to be a professional footballer. And that would have been the wrong way to leave the football club. Well, I think there's something really interesting there in two of the stories you've shared, Les. One is that Porsche example where you seem to be sanguine about accepting that actually this isn't a good look for the culture. And then again where you've got the chance to go to Manchester United and you choose, no, let's stay here for the sake of the club.

51:15I didn't choose. I bet George would say that. But you could have kicked off. Yeah, I could have kicked off. But your reaction was being accepting of it. We don't often see that today in football. It is a more selfish culture. what lessons would you pass on about learning to see that bigger picture and put the team above your own self-interest? I mean with the way things are now and like the things that I've seen and I've learnt and like I just said there you know when a club decides it's had enough for you it has enough for you and you don't play and I've seen loads of players where they're up for a bonus if they play another five games and so they never play again so do you know what I mean it's difficult to say to someone you know put the team and the club before anything that you think about.

52:00It's just about your values, where your values are. And I would never say to put money above anything, but it's about your values and what you believe in. So what were your values? My values were, you know, honesty, integrity. And like I said, you know, the fact that QBR had given me the opportunity that had given me to be a professional footballer, I didn't want to leave the football club on a cloud. It's refreshing to hear. And I wonder how that approach to football sat and whether it did sit at odds with being in the modern game when you were a sporting director at QPR. Was it difficult, your mindset versus the modern mindset?

52:36Yeah, for sure. For sure, because I encountered a group of players that had joined QPR for monetary reasons rather than the fact that they wanted to play for QPR. How did you know that? Because of what I was being told, what I was seeing, the attitudes. Would you give us, without necessarily naming names obviously, give us some examples of what you were hearing, what you were seeing how you knew what was going on I mean Joey Barton was the only player out of that group of players that has been honest enough to come out and say I joined QBR for the money what they was offering they were offering me far more than anybody else and when I say that filtered down in terms of when I was looking at players and I mean I spoke about this before there was you know there was one player we had pre-season doesn't come back for pre-season you know what you used to do was you get to the end of the season and what we used to do you send a letter to every player's house saying this is the day we're back and they have to sign for it.

53:29So it's not something that gets posted through the door so they go, oh, I know it never came. They have to sign for it. So you know everybody's got their letter. You send, the secretary will send umpteen emails. I say umpteen, I'll send an email to everybody saying, this is the day we're back in training. This is the place we're back in training, blah, blah, blah, and so on and so forth. So this player, as pre-season was approaching, so we're a week away from pre-season, sends her a message and says, when are we doing? She said, well, you've had the letter and you've had the thing, but I'm telling you it's this day.

53:57A couple of days later, he sends her something else. I said, don't send him anything more back. You've given him all the information. So he turns up three days late for training, acting like he didn't know when we were supposed to be in. So he walked through the door and I said to her, just prepare a letter saying he's fine a couple of weeks wages and that's what he did. So then after training, she gives him a letter, comes into my office and he says to me, he says, don't you think it's a bit much for her? For three days. And I was going, look at you. You haven't even come in this, you ain't come into my office and apologise for being late.

54:37You've just said, isn't this a bit harsh for three days late? And so I remember, he took it to the PFA and the PFA called me up and they said to me, someone from the PFA called me up and they said to me, look Les, we understand the situation, but if this goes to a tribunal or whatever it's going to be they're only going to fine him a week's wages and they're going to suspend the other and I said well this is part of the problem because we're not holding people accountable I said look he gets paid to play for QBI it's decided he don't he's three days behind everybody else I saw this player a little while ago and he knew because I said it on another podcast and he knew who I was talking about and he came to me and he went I'm really sorry he said I just got caught up with the culture that was at the football club and people not doing things properly.

55:27Who had allowed that culture to fester? I think it was well documented that QBR had spent a lot of money. I mean, agents used to say to me, look, you had a group of owners that wanted to spend money and we're the best people in the world to spend that money for them. And that's what they were doing. You know, I felt so sorry for the owners of QBR because they felt they were doing the right thing. Unfortunately, they got themselves into a massive hole because of the culture that was able to develop. And so when you say, did I go in there and be frustrated about by what I was seeing, I don't care what anybody earns.

56:01Good luck, if you can earn it. All I want you to do is earn it. See, I was working with Rio Ferdinand at BT Sport and I remember talking about him going to QPR at the very end of his career in a short term there. I said, what was the biggest change? And he said, you know, he'd spent 20 years in professional football, right? he said, the first time in my entire career that players spoke about what they were earning was in the QPR dressing room. He said, I walked in on day one. They're going, what are you on? What are you on? How much more do you want to get? What are you going to ask for? He said, like, he was in shock.

56:33He couldn't believe that that was the culture. Yeah. Yeah. And he joined, Rio joined in the August side, joined in January after the January, so that ended the window. So how then is the sporting director, do you go about unpicking that kind of culture? I tell you what, first of all, let me ask you, when you first walked in, how would you describe the culture at the time in a sentence? Wild Wild West. I said to the owners of the football club, I went in and, you know, had a look around for, sat in there, sat in my office, went out, watched training and all that for about three weeks. Then I had a meeting with the owners and I said, what you got here is the Wild Wild West.

57:10So people doing what they like, when they like, how they like. The only difference is they're not wearing Stetsons and coming in on horses. what you got is the wild wild west so what's the first thing that you try and do to turn a culture like that around just you try to bring some rule put some rules and regulations in place and people were turning up late for training every day but why was the who was the manager at the time it was Harry Reddamp was the manager why would Harry be allowing that because what was happening there was there was a fine system in place so you turn up late you get fined whatever and I said to him I said H we need to change this and he said do you want to change it I said well look people are turning up late every day blah blah blah he goes which ones and blah blah and I was like now he was more concentrated on trying to get the team to where it needed to be so I said look as long as you're happy with me doing this you know he goes no do whatever you want to do and I said well so what we're going to do is change the fighting system I said you come in late today if it's£100 you're going to find£100 you come in late tomorrow it's£200 after that it's£400 and I just kept doubling it up doubling it up all of a sudden no one was coming in late anymore you know so we We changed that.

58:17You know, we had players that I remember, and no one or two of the players have spoken out about this. But the culture was so bad, and people were doing whatever they wanted. I went to my sports scientists, I went to nutritionists, and I went to the head of SNC, and I said to them, what's going on with the players? I said, we've got some overweight players at the football club. I said, we've never been back. I said, well, I'm backing you now. What do you need to do? I said, what does an elite athlete's body weight need to be? And I said, anywhere between 9%, 8%, less than 10%. I said, right, what are we going to do?

58:53I said, why do we do the DEXs? And so what we used to do at the start of every year, all the players used to go to a place and they had these things where they tell you what the body fat you got on you and blah, blah, blah. So we were doing it, but we're not using it. So we went in and we said, right, okay, all of you are going to have the opportunity to get your body weight down to a certain level. you get your body weights down to that certain level and if you're not at that level by the time you're going to be given a period of time and so your period might be different to yours and yours might be different to mine they're going to calculate how long you need to get down to that level if you're not down to that level by that time you're getting fine so that's all I had to do I just tried to bring a little bit of professionalism back into what we was doing we had some good players I know that money can get confusing for almost everyone so where do you invest?

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1:00:18Quite simply, XTB are here to help you make it as easy and straightforward as possible. It's never too late to start being smart with your hard-earned money. So start investing in your future today by downloading the XTB app or clicking the link in the description. It's time to make your money work for you. and what was the reaction when you were coming in with these fighting systems some of them didn't like well you're not going to like it no one likes change and if you're used to being allowed to do something then when there's change you're going to resist it you're going to complain about it and how did that resistance manifest itself it just you know you've had players coming out complaining about it afterwards and saying I was doing this and I was doing that and blah blah blah blah blah but you know we just we needed to to get the club back to some sort of normality yeah you know for QBR QBR was never you know when they got relegated I think it was the fifth or the sixth biggest players in the Premier League wow exactly and listen on their best day on QBR's best day and again everything I'm saying here that the owners will back up I said to them on your best day your best best day and the best day is you're sitting in the top half of the Premier League Man United come to town Man City come to town Chelsea come to town Arsenal Tottenham come to town you only get 18 ,000 people through the door that's all your stadium holds so unless you've got a pool of money where we can all go and dive in and swim around and go alright we're not worried about this there's only one thing that's going to happen to this football club Who then had before you kind of allowed all of this to become the norm that you were paying, overpaying arguably for players paying huge wages no one was really checking that people were behaving in the correct way the owners were continuing to splash the cash certain people at the club were allowing that to happen well I think so you've had a host of managers in there before you know I think Walnut got the team promoted Mark Hughes had gone in there then Harry had gone in and it's kind of like just putting plasters over everything do you know what I mean you're not bandaging it up you're just putting plasters and then plasters are coming loose and just unfortunately it was, you know, the environment just wasn't, wasn't what I'd call a professional environment.

1:02:36But what intrigues me, Les, is as a man with such strong values, as you said, honesty, integrity, and looking to do the right thing by people, why did you accept a job like that then? I didn't know it was as bad as that, I've got to be honest. But, you know, listen as well, in saying I didn't know it was as bad as that, but as well, what you want, you know it needs changing. Right. You know it needs changing, and I was hoping I could change it. and I did change it I did change it you know so it wasn't a case of going in there and going right I didn't realise as bad as it was but can you change it that was the whole point of me going in there to try and change the environment and what was going on It's also the club that you loved it's the club that gave you a professional football career and as you've just said if you hadn't done what you did there's a strong argument QPR are no longer alive I don't know if they would have brought somebody else in to try and help they would have had to have done because they couldn't But you felt compelled to help save this club, right?

1:03:32They couldn't keep going in the direction they were going in. Can we talk really honestly then about the personal cost? Yes. Of doing that? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The personal cost. I mean, when I left QPR, I spoke about, I didn't realise how stressed I was. Because when you go into something, you want to go in and you give it your all. And when you give it your all, that means you put everything you've got into it. So I was going to all the games, wanting the team to win. So when the team's losing, you take that on board more than anybody else. You know, all the fans think you don't care or people think you don't care, but you do, you take it on board.

1:04:12You go home and you think about the game, you watch the game again, you think, where can we improve? And, you know, everyone's talking about QBR, not QBR, everyone's talking about financial fair play and PSR rules. We had them 10 years ago. Cuba was the first team to be fined£40 million for breach of financial fair play regulations. So we were trying to, we were at the football club and you're trying to get rid of all these big earners, but they're not going to earn that money anywhere else. So they're sitting there. So the money that you get from the parachute payments that you hope could strengthen the team, you're paying people off to leave the football club.

1:04:52Do you know what I mean? So that was the difference. And so I always remember what Deanu was saying to me. When we got relegated, they went listen we're not thinking about getting promoted next season it's just about can we survive in the championship next season because we need to get rid of all these big earners but then you realise you can't get rid of all these big earners because no one's going to pay them the money that you're paying them so it became sort of like you know sort of one in one out sort of like trying to balance the books and do everything in the correct way I don't know if you've ever heard that metaphor of when two fish are swimming along and an older fish swims past and he goes the water's nice today and the two younger fish go, what's water?

1:05:30Because if you're surrounded by it, you don't recognize it. You've come out of that to then recognize, actually, this is stressful doing this. What did you learn about living with that constant stress that you were under? I've been on numerous courses where they talk about, you know, you've got to take time out. You've got to have time for yourself. You've got to de-stress. You've got to bring... And we all say the same thing. When we're on these courses, we go, yeah, you know, if I ever go back in, you know, I do this and I do that. But when you're thrust into the environment and you want the environment to be successful, you go home at night and I've often said that I don't think there's enough former professional footballers in this country that do this sporting directorial.

1:06:13But there's a load of guys on the courses now that are doing them. And I've been asked to go on a few of the talks and I did something for the PFA a little while back and I went to a course and they'd just finished it. I think it was eight o 'clock and then I was coming in to do my bit and they were all sitting there and I went, you're all tired, didn't you? I was like, it's a long day? And they'd be like, yeah. And I went, this could just be the start when you get home. Do you know what I mean? And that's what you don't realise. You go home, I was going home and I was answering calls at 10 o 'clock at night, 11 o 'clock at night for things that, something that might have happened that someone needed to alert me about so that I knew about it for the next day and stuff like that.

1:06:50So, and you take that home with you, you try to go to sleep and you're thinking, well, how am I going to deal with that tomorrow? or, you know, we've got to deal with this tomorrow, I've got to deal with that tomorrow. And then before you know it, it's the morning and you're thinking, I ain't even slept. And then you're back in the office at whatever time it is dealing with the situation you have to deal with. So, you know, when I say I got stressed, that was where I got stressed because I was so, so immersed in what was going on and I wanted it to work. I wanted it to be successful. What was the lowest period for you?

1:07:22The lowest period is, I think it's, when you're not winning games. We went through that period where we had to change the team and perhaps the team weren't quite good enough at the time or we weren't playing well enough. And that was probably the lowest time when you're getting abused and stuff like that because the team ain't where it needs to be. What's the impact on your mental health? I am quite strong in terms of that. and listen, I've been in that environment for a long time and, you know, as much as I've been praised, you've been criticised as well, so you can't, like, you get that part of it and you can't, like, learn how to deal with it, you learn how to deal with those situations.

1:08:06Some people don't and the one thing I always promised myself, I weren't going to turn away alcohol or anything else and to try and go, I was never going to go home from work and go, I need to have a drink or I need to have this or I need to have that and I was never ever going to do that and I promised myself that so in terms of my mental health I had good people around me and I was able to talk to people and say to them look yeah this is what's going on and you know just get some you know because I've got some friends that are in business as well and I know football's quite unique in terms of what it is but I've got friends that face similar problems in their businesses and so you sit down and you talk to them and you know have a coffee with them and have a bite to eat with them and say right this is what's going on and then they give you their side of what's going on and so you feel how can I filter that into what I'm doing what kind of advice did you get that you could implement that now you look back on you go that was really invaluable I was always told to put the business first it's never personal so never never take on board like you know I go in and I have a discussion with a disagreement with a player or a member of staff you know and all I ever said to them is this is about QBR this is not about what Les Ferdinand wants it's not about what Jake wants not about what you want it's about QBR and doing the best thing for QBR and that was kind of like where my focus was always about what's the best thing for QBR where what you know it's not about me personally it's not about anybody else you know managers come through the door people used to say I had arguments with managers I used to say what am I going to have an argument with manager about I said like you know of course I had discussions with managers about the team and I never once picked a team for any manager I never told him what player to pick what were Clarence not to pick.

1:09:51All I ever did was say, okay, after a game we'll have a chat. This is what we spoke about when we did the interview. This is what QPR needs, not what Les Ferdinand needs, not what you need. This is about what QPR needs and this is why we've employed you because you said you could fulfill what QPR needs. Can we go back to doing that, please? And how would you make a decision that the conversations have been had, things haven't changed, so the thing that needs to change is the manager? How do you get to that point? What was your criteria? That criteria came about through results. As well, we had a very democratic type of hiring and firing process at the football club.

1:10:33So the owners would get involved as well if they didn't enjoy what they were seeing. You know, at times I used to say to them, I used to have to say to them, have a little bit more patience, you know, we're going through this and this and understand this. And again, because I've been involved in football and you can have these periods where things are not quite going well, And you could see whether a manager had lost the dressing room or whether it was just results. And I often say managers don't only get a sack because of results. It's usually because they've lost what's going on around the training ground.

1:11:03And how can you tell if a manager's lost a dressing room? Well, people are not working for him. And you would have seen it loads of times where a team's playing and they're playing their heart out and then someone has a shot and it goes off someone and goes in the back of the net. You lose 1-0 and you think, where you can't tell me those players ain't tried for the manager it's when the manager's like when the game's going on and you're thinking he ain't running as hard as he can he ain't running as hard as he can he ain't really doing what he's and it looks just so disorganised and then you kind of like you look a little bit deeper and you look a little bit deeper and then you realise that perhaps they're not they're not running around for me And how many managers did you have to part company with in your time for QPR?

1:11:41Cool I think I went through six or seven managers six or seven I was always the one that had to go and speak to the manager and tell him that he was losing his job. How did you approach that conversation? What was your way of doing that? I mean, for instance, it was really weird because when I first took the job over, Harry left after the season, the following transfer window in January, Harry left. Chris Ramsey came in and did some coaching and all that. And then the boys started tweeting and how good the training was and so on and so forth. and I always remember the owners of the football club coming to me and saying look we don't want to get promoted we're not looking to get promoted next year it was just about survival in the championship do you think Chris could do that job and I was like if it's just about survival in the championship yeah you could do the job no problem and they were listening they were seeing the tweets and all that because they were all on social media and all that I'm not on any of that stuff but they was on social media and so they were liking what the player was saying and so I said I think you could keep us in the division if it's just about staying in the championship and I always remember one of the owners saying I don't care if it's just one place above the relegation zone but we just need to clear out what we've got here unfortunately what happened was we weren't able to clear out what we had there because the players were on too much money and so I remember giving Chris the job saying look you're going to take but the one thing I said to him is you're getting this job but at some stage I'm going to come to you with bad news you told him that at the very outset said at some stage I'm going to come to you with bad news and you know that and he understands football he understood it and so and that was quite an easy so when I remember when when it was time to sack him the owners went to me you sure you want to do this I said yeah it's my job I'll go and do it and I suppose with all the other managers I just sat down and said look it's it's come to an engine I mean we're not getting results we're not playing well we're not doing this this this and this we need to make a change and I was always honest.

1:13:46There's no manager, again, and they might tell you different, but there's no manager that I ever lied to because I didn't have to. Which conversation was the hardest with them? I don't know if there was. I suppose Mark Warburton was a tricky one because we'd played some really good football under Mark and people say we sacked him, we didn't, we just never renewed his contract. He came to the end of his contract and we didn't renew it. So if that's the second, then we sacked him, but we just decided that we wasn't going to win. We felt we needed to move on to pastures. And what I think is interesting for people watching this who are in leadership positions, the reason why I asked that question, which was the hardest and you kind of had to think about it, was that it feels like you never did it unless you were certain.

1:14:31Yeah. How do people get to a point where they are certain about a decision they're taking? What was the criteria in your head to know, right, okay, we're done now? When results are not going the way you want them to, the performances are not going the way you want them to. I think it's more the performances than the results because you can perform and be unlucky. But if the results are bad and the performances are bad, then you know you have a problem. And that's where we got to. And when it gets to that stage, and like I said, it wasn't just my decision. It wasn't just me going in and saying, right, we're getting rid of the manager.

1:15:03You know, it was like, you know, we used to jump on meetings, Zoom calls and team meetings with the owners all the time. and I was like no I'm not happy about what we're watching we've got to get rid of him we've got to do this and like I said sometimes I bought the manager's time and other times I was like yeah okay this is probably the right time to do it and what were the common mistakes that managers would make that would end up with them losing the dressing room it's an interesting question common trying to think of if there was a common I think it's just about results performances the performances weren't where they needed to be.

1:15:42And, you know... But when a manager does that, I'm just trying to think back. You know, because my job, you know, when a manager comes through the door, and when I said to you, I never told a manager what team to pick or what that, my job was there to support him. Yeah. You know, my job was, you know, people say I had arguments. I didn't have arguments. Why do people say that? I don't know, because people make things up when a manager loses their job. There has to be, there must have been an argument between Les and the manager. Les was trying to pick the teams and stuff like that. And like I said, there's not a manager that I work with in the time that was at QPR.

1:16:15I will ever say to you that I picked a team from... If there was a problem, if there was a dispute with a player, I'd have players come into my office and talk to me. So Ilyas Chier, Eze, Abir Eze, they'd come in my office. They'd talk about football. I'd talk about football with them all day long. Les, what did you think of this? What do you think of that? I'm not about... never talk about tactics, team tactics or anything like that. just as an individual what do you think I could do how do you think I could help my game I'd have that conversation with them but in terms of if there was ever a problem with the manager and they ever mentioned the manager stop there let's go and get him because I ain't speaking behind the manager's back I'll never speak behind the manager's back if you've got a problem with the manager we go and get him now we'll sort it out now and on numerous occasions that happened but most of the time if it was just football chat we'd talk football what did you think of the game on the weekend and this that and the other like blah blah blah blah stuff like that but never speak behind a manager's back.

1:17:11You know, you described when you're watching a game and you can see that somebody's not running hard enough or they've stopped putting the effort in. What was it that a manager would do that would precede that kind of effect taking place? I mean, listen, you could see that someone having a bad game and when they lose confidence it looks like they're not running as hard as they should do. But it's because they're thinking about what they're doing and I don't care what sport you play the minute you bring thought into it any sportsman that's playing at his best it's instinctive the minute you see them start thinking about it then the glitches start to appear and the same is in football and as a centre forward when you're on fire the ball comes across you go bang or you'll hit one from a ranger where people go Jesus you just hit her from there because you're confident in everything it's instinctive when things ain't going quite as well you start to think I need to take a touch here and by the time you've taken that touch someone's nicked it off your foot and blah blah blah you don't get the opportunity to get the shot off so there's a difference between someone lacking a bit of confidence and going through that confidence spurt to the team not really gelling to what the manager's telling them anymore I love the way you talk about football Les still talks about it with a proper as soon as we start talking the passion starts to come and it makes me wonder how you're feeling now that for the first time in a very long time you're not in the game how does that feel?

1:18:36Yeah, no, it's, you know, the game of football's been very good to me in terms of, like, I retired when I was nearly 40 years of age. You know, I was playing in Premier League at 39. And then I came out of the game and went back into coaching for a little bit, went and did a bit of TV work and then went back into coaching and then spent, you know, eight years at QPR. I've been in and around the peripheries of it for a long time. so for the first time in a long time I've gone back to doing a bit of the TV stuff which I'm enjoying I really am enjoying because it keeps you involved without the day to day going into a training ground and a lot less stress than I had before but yeah I felt like I feel like I've learnt a lot in my time at QPR good and bad I'd like to have another go if the opportunity sounds stressful sounds like it takes over your life sounds like it ruins your evenings you're having to force yourself not to turn to drink just to get through it But you want to go back in.

1:19:34Why? Because I think that's, you know, it's what I've done all my life. You know, it's... And there's an adrenaline about you've come out for a while and I think the same for managers. You see managers who are in it and you go, why would you do that? You know, you look at them and you think, he's aged. And then all of a sudden they come out of the game and you think, boy, look at him. He looks like he's 20 years younger. Do you know what I mean? But it's almost like an addictive... Now you're talking about, I'm talking about not having a drink. It's almost like addictive wanting to put you back in there.

1:20:00Do you know what I mean? but I'm enjoying life at the moment so I would only go back if I thought it was the right thing. Talking about enjoying life, how much did you love playing for Newcastle United? Jeez. Jeez, people often talk to me about I had a fantastic time at QBR. What a football club though. I had a great time at QBR. I supported Tottenham as a boy. Playing for Tottenham, it's the team of support so I lived a boyhood dream in terms of never thinking I was going to do it to actually doing it. But those two years in Tyneside and playing for Newcastle was probably the highlight of my career.

1:20:39We should have won the league in that first year. The year we were 12 points clear. Can you take us inside your view of what happened in that Newcastle versus Manchester United period? When you should have done it and didn't. Yeah, experience more than anything. When we started the season, we were free-flowing. We were just scoring goals. You score one, we score two. You score two, we score three. Blah, blah, blah, we was playing. And then when it came to the business end, where we now were 12 points clear, and I think Peter Beardsley had done the calculations. And if we'd carried on winning in the way that we were winning, we would have had the league wrapped up by March.

1:21:24Is that what Peter Beardsley did? He came out with... That's brilliant. I've worked it out, lads. Just got to keep winning. We'll win, my mum. Thanks, Peter. If we'd have kept on winning, and I'm not sure he said it to the players, but I know that he'd done it. I'm not blaming Pete. Pete, I'm not blaming him, mate. But that came out. And I remember one of the days, it was Christmas time, and I can't remember why I'd been back to London, but I drove back to the training ground. We were training late in the afternoon. drove to the training ground we used to have supporters come to the training ground every day to watch training Maiden Castle I remember pulling up in the car park and someone had Champions 96 and this was December I was like you know when you think really didn't want to see that and then what happened was I think free-flowing football when things started to get on top we started to panic and you know I stopped scoring goals where we were free-flowing in terms of the goals we were scoring we weren't doing that anymore and we started to think about it.

1:22:28Thought came into what we were doing. Can we be a little bit more defensive? Can we be a little bit more? And so that free-flowing style of everything we were doing came to a bit of a halt. I mean, we've spoken to other people that talk about there's a different mentality of either playing to win or playing not to lose. Did you sense that that shift happened? Yeah, because we were going to, we went for a period of giving early goals away and then we were going to games and we were like let's keep it tight let's not give a goal away let's not give and we weren't talking like that at the earlier part of the season it didn't matter let's just go and win games of football you know let's go and play to our strengths and win games of football and now we're talking about let's keep it tight and I remember going to Liverpool where Anfield we'd given a couple of early goals given a goal away against Arsenal and then we'd given a goal away against someone else and we're now thinking alright let's not give an early goal away whereas we weren't thinking like that before we were just going like we can we'll go and play and we play against anyone on our merit we'll beat them and so I think we started to think about what we were doing a little bit more and that's when like I said thought comes into it and everything happens a little bit a little bit slower than you want it to What was it like playing under such a catalyst like Kevin Keegan at that period?

1:23:42I thoroughly enjoyed my time you know and I'd often say I think you know us losing the title that year just took something out of Kevin up until then it was just you know we was on an upward trajectory was going in a direction, okay, we didn't win the league, but, you know, we played some of the best football I'd seen in my career. Like I said, I had a good team at QBR, we had a very good footballing team, but I'd just gone up a level in terms of a level or two in terms of the players that we were playing with and what we were able to produce. But what did he do for you? Like, why was it that you played straight football?

1:24:15He was just, he was very relaxed. He was just very, very calm. He was like, you know, I always remember, you know, and going into football myself see it now and you go to a game first game of the season manager comes you're getting changed and then they get the team from next door and then the manager will come in and go right this one's playing you're marking this one this one's playing you're for corners you're marking this one you're marking this one you're marking this one he came around the corner and we're all sitting there and obviously the manager comes he's got a team sheet and we stop and we look at him to see what he's going to say and he goes like that he looks at the team sheet and he goes

1:24:54rolls it up and he said give them the respect they deserve in there but play to the capabilities of what you got in here they won't live with you and that wasn't being disrespectful to the team you know we just never did the Les you're picking up this one and this one you're picking up that one he used to say right you know who to you know who to mark you know how to pick up go and do that and when it started to become clear that maybe you weren't going to win the league. How did the atmosphere change? I think there was a bit of desperation in us all. Are we going to let this slip? Are we going to let this slip?

1:25:33And then once you get on that slippery slope, it's very, very difficult to get off. And we were all trying to get off and change the directory of it. And unfortunately, just thing after thing, just get back in. What sort of stuff? It becomes psychological. We go to Liverpool, score three goals away from home. at Liverpool and you think got a chance of winning the game they win 4-3 we lost Arsenal we lost Liverpool and then we lost Blackburn the next weekend and I think everyone talks about the Man United game where we lost 1-0 at home I don't think because that was early in the season I don't think it was a game I thought it was Liverpool I think if we'd have won the Liverpool game we would have gone on and won the title because I think there's periods in a season where you win a pivotal game and it just gives you a spike and I think had we won that game the euphoria that would have come with that game would have given us the spite to go in and do what we needed to do.

1:26:21Instead, it was the depression of losing that game. It's a little bit like Liverpool and PSG. They lose their Champions League game, they go to the cup final and if there was any game that could probably lift you, it was a cup final. But you could see that the Liverpool players looked like they were drained from the emotions of those two games and I think that's what the Liverpool game did to us. And what did Sir Alex Ferguson do so well that added to the psychological challenge if you like at Newcastle? I mean everyone looks at the situation with Kevin Keegan where he comes out and said I'd love it, I'd love it As players we felt it was great to see Kevin Keegan wearing his heart on his sleeve everyone wants to see every player wear their heart on their sleeve he was just the manager So when Andy Gray live on Sky afterwards went I think he's buckled under the pressure I think that they've lost it now you didn't feel that you saw that and thought yes that's our manager yeah we there was no player that I felt the manager had lost it you know we just because we knew Kevin Keegan was an emotional guy we knew he was he was very emotional in terms of what we did and how we did it and how he coached and how he managed so that that wasn't really a surprise to us you know I mean everybody else made a massive meal of it you know we as players we went in and you know everyone would say I'd love it I'd love it if you'd make me a cup of tea or I'd love it if you'd make me a coffee.

1:27:46That became the thing, but it was never seen as Kevin Keegan's lost the plot. Do you know what I mean? That was all it was, you know. And you said it was hard for Kevin to recover from not winning the league that season. Yeah, I think it was. That's just my own personal opinion. What about for the players and for you personally? Yeah, I think it was, you know, the next season we did finish second in the league again, but we were nowhere near in the position that we were in the first season in terms of sort of like world clear. We were never really up there. We were in the top four or five teams that season and at the end of the season we had a bit of a kick that allowed us to jump into second place.

1:28:24But we were never really challenging for the league that next year. But why was it Newcastle that buckled under the pressure, not United? Because they probably had winners in that team. We didn't have that in our team. I think Peter Beardsley had won the league with Liverpool and perhaps Genola had won something with Marseille. Other than that, outside of that, I don't think there was anyone in the squad that had won anything in their careers. I could be wrong, but if I look back on the squad that we had, I didn't think there was anyone else that had won any kick major in their careers. And after that season, you joined the England squad for the Euro 96.

1:29:04How did you pick yourself up from such a disappointment, sir? It's really funny that, because I was like PFA player of the year that year, I'm 96. So there was still a buzz and a level in me that felt, right, you know, well, I'm going away with Euro 96, I could make a change here, and I can end this season on a high and then play one minute. So, yeah, so that was disappointing for me. But how did you cope with that? So you are hitting the heights at Newcastle, your fellow professionals are recognising you as being the best player in the land and yet you find yourself in a squad making up the numbers.

1:29:45I weren't even making up the numbers. I was just like, on the bench, it never came on. So yeah, that was probably the most disappointing part of that in my era. And I always felt like whenever I played for England, it was, if I hadn't, if I didn't play and I was a 10 out of 10 or a 9 out of 10, it was my last opportunity. I always felt whenever I played for England, every time I played, it was my last opportunity. It was last opportunity. I was never really given a, what I felt was a fair run in the squad. The year before that, before I went to Newcastle, I finished the season on 26 goals at QPR and the talk was about me leaving and going, you know, going somewhere else at the end of that season and I got told by Doug Ellis when we was, the late Doug Ellis, sorry, when we was in Barbados.

1:30:28We went on the season trip we were playing against the Barbadian national team and I was told by Doug Ellis that I wasn't in the Umbo tournament for England. I didn't even get a call from Terry Venables or anyone saying that you know we're leaving you out of this squad I've just got left out of it and I thought I just had my best year at QPR didn't I mean so there was a clash of personalities between myself and Venables we didn't really see eye to eye and I used to say to him look you're the England manager if you don't think I'm good enough at international everyone will listen to you just say I think he's alright domestically but you know I don't think he quite cuts it at an international level and he'd go lez lez lez you know it doesn't work like that so you know he used to continue bringing me into the England squad.

1:31:08What was the clash, do you think? I don't know, just the personality, classic personality. Sometimes your personality doesn't suit somebody's and that's all it was. I used to go away with England thinking, I know I'm not going to play here when Venables was the manager. But you'd still go? Yeah, you're getting called up, so I could have feigned injury but I knew I would have played the next weekend. But we go back to your values again of honesty and integrity. Yeah, exactly. how would you contribute to a squad like that when you're going in without the hope of actually being selected yeah it's strange because what you do you still do what you need to do as a professional footballer so you go out you train you train as hard as you can you do the things that you need to do in terms of that and when you go away with England it's you know a lot of the time you're doing you're doing pattern of play and so on and so so wherever your involvement is your involvement you do finishing at the end and so on and so forth so you try and make that the best you possibly can and then that's it really I mean, come the end of Euro 96, I remember we all got invited to Buckingham Palace and I didn't go because I just didn't feel like I was part of the squad.

1:32:14All the players went to Buckingham Palace, I was probably the only one that didn't go. And that was simply because I didn't feel like I was part of the squad. What's your relationship like with regret? I probably made a decision based on pride rather than what was absolutely the best thing for my career when I left Newcastle and went to Tottenham. there's a few things that had happened at Newcastle and I knew that they needed to raise £6 million and I was they were still being offered£6 million for a few different clubs for myself at the time sounds like small change now doesn't it but they were still being offered £6 million and I remember John Hall saying that Les Ferdinand leaves this football club over my dead body Kenny Douglas had come in as the manager of Newcastle and they still needed to raise 6 million and so a few clubs had come in and offered that money and I think it was my agent who said to one of the board members at Newcastle that Les doesn't really want to leave this club and the fella said you don't always get what you want in life and I thought I'll just play there score 50 goals in 80 odd games and that's the reaction and then when I went to Spurs I actually didn't I actually I drove down on the Friday had my medical and got to London, had a medical and I was seeing Alan Sugar on a Sunday.

1:33:37On a Saturday in the Unbroke tournament at Goodison Park, Alan broke his ankle and it looked like he was going to be out for the season. And I always remember, sort of like, got a call from Newcastle. They couldn't speak to me because they'd already accepted the bid so they'd speak to the agent and say, look, Alan's broken his ankle and, you know, we want Les to come back. And I said, you don't always get what you want in life. And I said, look, I'm going to speak to Alan Sugar and if I like what Alain Suga's got to say, I'm signing for Tottenham because of the way I felt I'd been treated. And when you talk about regrets, like I said, I just felt like I made a decision based on pride rather than what was the correct thing for my career.

1:34:16Why do you think Newcastle were like that with you after the great form you'd shown? It wasn't Newcastle. It was one particular person who made that comment and that disappointed me. And so, like I said, they tried to bring me back and you know what I kind of had in my head if I'd go and had this conversation with Alan Sugar and I like what Alan Sugar had to say and I've got to be honest, when I did meet him in terms of where Tottenham is today I know Daniel Levy and all that have done an exceptional job in the stadium and the training ground and all that but I just felt Alan Sugar was the catalyst for bringing it in the direction it is today.

1:34:54So you made the decision to leave. It was the day that you walked into Tottenham and you were a Tottenham fan as a boy so everyone would have thought this is a dream like you've kind of gone full circle here you've started at your local club QPR you've gone to Newcastle nearly won the league you get to finish at your boyhood club that's kind of like the dream for a lot of players did it feel like a dream? Not my first day no I went into the training ground and I'd always seen Tottenham as this big massive club at the time and it was probably shoddier than QBR, how QBR was run. When I said to you, QBR was really professional in terms of the way that we carried on.

1:35:37I went to Newcastle who, as much as they hadn't won anything, acted like a big club. Everything that needed to be laid on for the players was laid on. Keegan made the players the be-on-and-all in terms of making sure everything was right. I say that and then I say we never did well in London. when we travelled down to London. It's because we took the coach every other week. We covered, let's say, a seven-hour journey into London and then you get stuck in rush hour before you get to the hotel. So that isn't ideal preparation for a game the next day. But everything else was done on a big scale in terms of the...

1:36:16So what did you think in... Obviously, you wouldn't have vocalised this, but what were you thinking day one there? When I went to Spurs, I probably made a mistake. Have I made a mistake? Because it was just... It just, it just wasn't professional enough. Everything about it wasn't professional enough. And, you know, listen, I picked up quite a few injuries while I was at Spurs, but the training ground, everything that they'd done, it just wasn't at the level that I would have expected for Tottenham at Spurs. And I often say, we were sponsored by Pony at the time and that was probably apt. It probably was, because it was like, you know, I just felt there's so much more could have been done with what Tottenham were doing at the time.

1:36:59And, you know, in my first five years I had four different managers and a change of board. So that kind of tells you how unsettled the football club was. In hindsight, would you make that same decision? No, in hindsight, in hindsight, it's such a lovely thing. But I probably wouldn't have made that decision had I known what I was going into. As much as I wanted to play for Spurs and, you know, like I said, I'd lived the boyhood dream just in terms of my career and where I felt I still had had so much to offer just kind of went downhill from it. You know what I think is always difficult when you make the wrong decision in football?

1:37:35In some ways that decision gets a bit rubbed in your face because the one thing you have to do at that club is go back to the club that you were at before probably to play against them and I wonder how it was for you going back to Newcastle as a Tottenham player and seeing where you were before where you had such great times. That was hard because I think I joined Tottenham in 97 if I'm not mistaken Newcastle got to the FA Cup final that year didn't they? Two years on the spin wasn't it? So yeah so they were still making progress but I kind of weren't looking at that my concentrations were about you know how do we and to be fair to Alan Sugar and this is why I said I like what he had to say he was saying to me look I know where the club is right now we're trying to build it and get it better and I need to sign people like you in order for us to get it to where we need it to go and to be able to track the other names that come to the football club and like I said he sold it really well How did it feel going back to Newcastle with them?

1:38:32Just wanting to win wherever I go wherever I go don't matter what team I play for wherever I go and play I want to win I had a fabulous time in Newcastle and same for the Newcastle supporters whenever I went back and played there they would always cheer me before you know my name and they would always cheer and they'd sing my name as soon as I touched the ball they would boo you know Welcome to Exactly so it was but you know one of the things I will say and you know when I left QPR and went to Newcastle I remember coming back and you know when you go back to your previous club you're not quite sure what reception you'll get and I remember I played 90 minutes and Newcastle ended up winning 3-2 it was a really good game ended up winning 3-2 I scored I celebrated and at the end of the game the QBR supporters sang my name the whole stadium stood up and sang my name and I thought wow this is unbelievable because I didn't I never expected I just thought I was going to get booed I thought I was going to get you know but the whole stadium stood up and sang my name and I didn't know what way to go because the Newcastle supporters were singing my name and then and then I went to Tottenham and went back to I went back to to Newcastle and at the end of the game they did exactly the same thing I stood up and sang my name and I couldn't even I got so emotional I couldn't go to either end I got so emotional about it because I thought and when I went in the change rooms I thought I sat there and I sat there for ages and I was sitting there and I was thinking do you know what wherever I've gone I've just tried to do my best and that's all you can do sometimes do your best and hope your best is good enough and to be kind of rewarded like that in the way that they did just felt it made me feel like I'd gone there and given what I had to give to them I think even now, I can see the emotion in your face actually just thinking about it.

1:40:28Yeah, because I had goose pimples here when I was thinking about it just now. Really? Yeah, it's just, you know what I mean, to actually go there and feel that someone's, people know that you've given your best to the cause. Okay, we fell short, we're not winning the league, but in terms of giving your best and trying, it doesn't get much better than that. But again, that to me is a validation. I've wrote down when you said about your values earlier of being honest, acting with integrity and repaying people's faith in you. That's what it seems to me that the Newcastle and the QPR fans recognise that that's exactly who you were.

1:41:06Yeah, and what I was about and what I tried to do. And, you know, some people said to me that, you know, you could have thrown your swords out at your bram and gone somewhere else earlier in your career. And when I look back on my career now and I think, did I stay at QPR too long? I could have done. I might have done but the time I stayed at QBR I felt I was learning Jerry Francis came in I've not really spoken about Jerry too much but he came in to QBR when I come back from Turkey sorry Trevor Francis was the manager he left Don Howe took over for a while another classroom person at least but very very good coach and then Jerry came in and I'd always been you know you asked me about the mental side of things I always felt I could cope with the mental side of things.

1:41:54I always felt like I was, I could look after myself. I knew what I wanted. I knew how to get there and so on and so forth. But the one thing Jerry Francis did was put an arm around me and I didn't realise that I needed that. You know, I always felt I could cope with anything. No, no, whatever goes on. Like I said about Bobby having a go at me and shouting and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But no problems, I ride over that. You know, Jerry came in, put an arm around me and I didn't realise as a person because that was what probably I needed more than anything else. What did it do for you? It gave me a level of confidence that this person actually believed in me.

1:42:34Rather than having to fight to prove to someone that I could do this, this person has come in and gone to me, I know you can do this. I mean, in his first conversation, he turned around and he said to me, you're going to play for England. Wow. He said, you've got the ability to play for England. And I thought to myself, I ain't even playing the QBR at the minute. You're talking about England. I'm not even in the QBR side at the minute. And he said, look, when I was at Bristol Rovers, I tried to sign you. They wouldn't sell you. I tried to take you on loan. They wouldn't allow me to take you on loan.

1:43:05He said, you're going to be my number nine. Have you had a chance to thank him? Oh, yeah. Listen, Gerry was a bit of a mentor for me. Even when I was going through the stuff at QBR, I'd call him or he would call me and I'd say, Joe, this is going on. And he'd go like, no, just stick to your guns. this is all about the football club. And I've spoken to Gerry on numerous occasions. He was fantastic for me. And he knows because I've told him on many, many occasions and I've spoken about him on many, many occasions. You know, I think there's different people that come in your life at different times throughout your career who help you.

1:43:40And Gerry is certainly one of those people. And now here you are, all these years later, putting your arm around players that need it. Before we move on to our quickfire questions, I just want to talk to you about the back end of your career. Leicester, Bolton, Reading, Watford. You know, you carried on until you were almost 40. What's it like, though, as someone who is such a good footballer, but your body just slowly starts to give you the message that, you know what, Les, you love the game, the game loves you, but you're done. Yeah, I think that's the hardest part to accept. And I think for me, you know, you kind of like know your body...

1:44:20You can't do what your body wants it to do anymore. You know, you get to that point where you go, right, okay, I used to be able to do this, I used to be able to do that. I can't really do that no more. So I'm not really going to benefit this group of players. You know, the Watford one is a real strange one because what I did was when I was at, when I'd left Leicester, I thought that was it. I'm done. I'm retiring. I'm finished there. And then Sam Allardyce, I got a call from Sam and he said, Les, let me speak to you. and I was like, oh no, no, I don't really want to speak to him. He's like, no, no, no, you've got to let me speak to you.

1:44:53And I went to speak to him and he was the first manager that I'd come across that he'd had all my data from my performances the previous year at Leicester and he went to me, your goals, assists, speed, everything else. When he looked at everything and digested everything, he went, you've still got too much to offer football and you know we are quite egotistical at times and it struck my ego a little bit you know what I mean I was like well really he's like yeah so anyway I did that and I kind of like went and I went to Bolton and I spent sort of like six months at Bolton and then he said you scored more goals than Kevin Davis last year but Kevin Davis had his best year for us so he's going to start you'll come off the bench and at some stage you'll get you'll run in the side so I was quite excited there were some good players there were some good players here JJ Koccia Campo all those things It was a great time for them.

1:45:48And they finished in the... They finished in the year spot. And I remember saw like... Got to sort of like November. They just had a bit of a sticky pass and I was thinking, all right, this is my time. I played it. We played against... Played against Tottenham in the League Cup and I scored and all that. So we'd won and I was like, okay, right. This is my time. Come the weekend, I wasn't playing. I was like, okay, I'm going to leave it next week. And didn't play. So I went and knocked on his door and I went, Sam, can't do this anymore. See what you're talking about? about I said no I need to go and play football you're a Premier League club you're earning good money and you're coming off the bench I went no well if it's my last year I don't want to sit on your bench and earn good money if it's my last year I want to play football and he went to me well I quite like that and he said but you know think about it and I said I have thought about it I don't knock on managers doors it's taken me a lot to come and knock on your door but I want to play You said you did it twice one was Ray Wilkins was the second This was the second time I knocked on the manager's door and I I said to him, look, I need to go and play football.

1:46:48And then we had a long conversation about it. And then in the end, he said to me, look, I've had quite a few clubs, some in the championship, come knocking on the door saying, they'll take you on loan if you're not playing. So I said, look, that's what I wanted to go and do. But what had happened was I'd got to 39 and I wasn't playing on a regular basis. So when I went to Reading and it was sort of like Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday, because I'd more or less detrained my body, I was, what I was training every day I wasn't playing so your body's not as robust as it was so then I started to pick up niggly injuries at Reading and then I went to that came to the end of that season Reading I spoke to Steve Coppell about whether I was going to stay or not and I just felt I couldn't really play any championship and then I went to I went to train at Watford not because again it was the same sort of thing I got a call saying would you be interested in coming in and I just thought do you know what you wake up in the morning and all of a sudden and football's not there anymore.

1:47:45How did that feel? I hadn't come to it. I hadn't come to it. And so, I'd already shaken hands with the BBC. Niall Sloan had shaken hands with Niall and said, look, I'd come in and do some soccer Saturdays and so on and so on, all that sort of stuff. When AD spoke to me, I said, look, I've already shaken hands with the BBC and if I've shaken hands on the deal, I'm going to do that. And look, ADOP, I'm not going to come and play one week and then next week I'm on the BBC and then people are going to say, where's his loyalties? Where's his loyalties? And so I said, so he went, well look, come and I think what he was hoping that, I'd come and start training.

1:48:23Love it. And love it. And then go, right, I'm going to kibosh the BBC. So anyway, I did. I went in and I started training. Did all of the, and he was, Edie Buffroy was fantastic with me. He incorporated me in all the first team training. So I got up to my, my fitness levels, got to where it needed to be. And then they went, pre-season I think they went to Finland and they went you come in pre-season I went no so I'll stay I'll train with the reserves I trained with the reserves I stayed with the reserves trained with the reserves they came back started incorporating with the first team stuff and he said why don't you why don't you play a game or two and I went okay I said yeah I can do that so I went and I played I went and played roads I never went we went to we went to Ipswich played a game against Ipswich there was quite a few young players playing and And I remember at the end of the game, I said to the boys, I wasn't sure about retiring, but I know I'm going to retire now.

1:49:20And he was like, I said, listen, chaps, I played the game and I've been in it for a long time. And I'm telling you now, you boys in here, if you want to get to playing professional football, it needs to be better than what we saw today. The desire, the fight, the bite, everything needs to be so much better than what it was. I said, everyone can have a bad game, but not all of us like this. I took my boots off and threw them in the bin. Right. My boy, that's it. That's me done. Right. And then one of the boys took it out and sold them on eBay. Oh! Just so much, man. Sorry. Before we do these quick fires briefly, the day you woke up no longer as a professional footballer.

1:50:04Yes. How was that? It was funny because, you know, when I said that was it, I wasn't going to play anymore. But I did. I went back in and carried on training and I always say to people I detrained myself out of football because I was going in every day and this is why I thank Aidy for this opportunity then I started going in three days a week then two days a week and then I stopped because as you said I think the day you wake up and it's not there anymore the contrast is so so so so different and I woke up and I knew it was coming to the end and what I do remember the one thing I do remember is we're Watford train they've got a long driveway yeah the first day of the season they were travelling away they had a gate away game so on the Friday we're at the training ground and we've trained and the boys are getting ready and it's just a light session they get ready to get on the coach and I walk out just as the coach is taking off and going down the driveway and I thought to myself glad I'm not on that And then I realised I'd made the right decision.

1:51:14What a way to finish. Your stories are amazing. Quickfire questions? Quickfire questions.

1:51:24You've answered this really during the conversation, but the three most important non-negotiable behaviours, as far as you're concerned. Honesty, integrity and values for me. What advice would you give to a teenage lad just starting out? Enjoy. when I've played my best football is when I've enjoyed it if you're playing to get to somewhere when I say that the best advice I'll give to someone whatever you're doing is enjoy it because if you don't and you're thinking I'm doing this because I want to get to there probably won't happen you go for a job as director of football sporting director in the future and the owners of the club say tell us in a sentence why you would do a job well what would you say to them?

1:52:09Obviously, you look at the club that it was at and stuff like that and you would understand why you would make this work. And for me, it would be, I've got the experience, I've had the experience as a player, I've had the experience as a sporting director, and I think I would bring a lot of value to your football club. What's the single best piece of advice you've ever received and why? I think I mentioned it before from my granddad. And when you talk about the values, it's respect to everybody. no one's better than me and I'm not better than anybody that has always stuck a chord struck a chord with me and has always stayed in my head in terms of integrity in terms of who you are what you are and what you stand for and the final question after this brilliant conversation what is your one golden rule for a high performance life?

1:53:02oh wow I don't know if it's one golden rule jeez I would say train how you play because you see I always say to people if you train like rag ass rovers you'll play like rag ass rovers if you train at an intensity and at a level then that's it would just become second nature brilliant look thank you so much for that incredible insight into your life your career your mindset it was brilliant thank you thank you thank you Les thank you so much for your time what a brilliant episode if you enjoyed it we've got so many more conversations with stars of the game Steven Gerrard Frank Lampard Rhea Ferdinand Jordan Henderson Robin Van Persie Glenn Hoddle Andy Cole the list goes on and of course on the High Performance app a special interview with Gaza you can check that out as well as getting all of the episodes before anybody else thanks for joining us and we'll see you soon

1:54:05Thank you.