Liam Lawson: The Part of My Red Bull Story Nobody Knows (E417)

0:03There was not one part of you that thought that phone call was coming. No. Liam Lawson has been removed from the role after just two races. The whole thing was played out to be me being mentally struggling and all this stuff. This could not be further from what it was actually like. I think nothing as well can stay really a secret. It's quite crazy how there'll be like a conversation which is between two people and it's insane how quickly that just gets out. What is the cost for you of this life?

0:35Is it fair to say that after what happened with Red Bull, the effects of that you would have carried for all of our season? I tried not to, but I definitely did, yeah. I tried to just as much as possible. You know, I even like pretended it never even happened kind of thing because I spent, you know, two races there. And the whole way that whole, the way it all went down was just, just so crazy that I just honestly kind of was like I'm just gonna pretend I never even went there and my whole pretty much everything else I've done was with V-Carb and Formula One so what do we not understand or what have we not been allowed to see that is actually the thing you'd like us to understand about that time then let me say probably firstly I you know I could have done you can always do a better job so I look at that stuff I look at those two races if I want to reflect on them, I can go, and I know, and I did at the time, okay, I could have done, I could have done a better job in some ways.

1:29But I think just the way, you know, we did, we did really no testing. I did half a day in Horeth before the season. And even then our Bahrain testing was very, was very compromised as well. We had some issues and I just went into the first weekend very unprepared. And... Did you feel that? I did, yeah, but I just keep telling myself that, like, I'll just deal with it, you know, it'll be fine. But I think we all back ourselves, but there is, you know, with how close, especially last year, it was so close. Like, if I'm three tenths off max, I'm out in Q1, pretty much. It's so close. So it's just like, you know, you had to be, or maybe five tenths, something like that.

2:11It was really, it was really, really close season. So the difference between the, you know, top teams. You know, I remember IBW last year, Q2, I missed out, I think I missed out on going through to Q3, but there was like seven cars within a tenth in the midfield. It was wild. So that made it hard for sure. But it was just a preparation that we, we, I don't think did a good job at all, but then, you know, maybe I could have done a better job as well. And then Melbourne was, you know, I had missed P3 with an engine issue. which we had planned to do two soft tire runs before quali. So I kind of went into quali with no soft tire running and then I made mistakes.

2:52And that's where, okay, I was unprepared going in, but I tried to make up for it and locked up, went off, which I never do. Like it was just stupid mistakes that I never do. Knocked out and then I'm starting the race at the back. And then we went to China and it was sprint weekend. I'd never driven there and it was just same kind of thing, trying to just make up for lack of preparation and just mistakes, like little mistakes. And last year it was, you know, you mess up a corner, you're out, the lap's done, it wasn't, you had to put a lap together. You couldn't, this year, when it's more separated, you can kind of get away with little mistakes here and there, especially when you have this year, you have energy making such a big difference.

3:31When last year it was that close, you had to put it all together and I just didn't do it in either of those two weekends and that was it. Then there was the race in China. We'd spoken about basically trying something quite wild on the car to get some comfort for me, but also because the team, at the time collectively, we weren't happy at all with the car. Max wasn't happy. Everyone was like, this is not working. And we need to try something quite radical here. And so we all kind of had a meeting on Saturday night and it was sort of decided. And I was on board with it because the idea was, let's try something quite crazy, but it might help get a direction for Liam and for the team going forward to make this car a bit easier to drive.

4:12Um, and so we decided, okay, let's start from the pit lane and basically radically change the car. We made a massive, like a change you would never do on a race weekend. Right. You know, like a normal change times 10. Trying to do what? Trying to get, basically trying to get a similar sort of, trying to get the same sort of balance out of the car, just in a very different way and an easier car to drive, a more stable car to drive. Um, and basically, but it's a, it's kind of a shot in the dark. and even if it kind of works, the chance of it working over a race was very low. And I knew all of these things, but it was sort of proposed to me as a, this is going to help you for the future and this is going to give us a bit more of a direction.

4:54We're going to try this. You know, starting last race is kind of done anyway. Let's just try something and this will help you. And so I ran it. It sucked for this race. Like the car was so, so hard to drive and just killed France and like basically destroyed our race. but honestly I didn't care at the time because I was like, there's a reason we've done this. And then flew back to the UK for Simulator on whatever it was, a Tuesday or Wednesday. And then on Monday I get the phone call. Oh, actually, we're switching you. I was like, why did we do? Like if you'd told me before the race, okay, we're going to run this crazy car for your last race in a Red Bull or we're going to run the setup that you've run all weekend, what do you think I would have said?

5:38you know so it was just kind of like that that at the time was like a really hard thing to deal with but then I had Japan literally the next week or the week after so I just didn't have time to compress or think about any of this and I had to then go to v-carb and just try and do the best you know prepare and do the best job possible but it made that whole yeah experience quite quite tough I think the hardest thing there well there's obviously there's obviously this story of we're gonna we think this is the right thing to do on the car okay I'll go with you on this and let's see, oh, by the way, you didn't perform with that decision that we made.

6:11Therefore, you're right. I mean, the thing is this performance was in used against me, which regardless of the two races, whatever, you know, in any case, two races on two tracks I've never been to in a season like that. Like, I won't accept that you can judge me off that. It's such a team game. So, you know, you have to be, everybody is, you know, working together. And yeah, that was just obviously not what I felt when that happened. So how do you process an emotion like that? Well, I didn't really have time. And I don't think I ever really did because then I was just straight into the rest of the season.

6:49And then you could say, okay, maybe get the summer break and you can look back and try and reflect on it. But honestly, by then I was just like, who cares? I'm now in this position. So I never really fully reflected on it or thought about it too much. with respect Liam that doesn't sound accurate what you've said because you told us that there was a period where you thought about I'm going to pretend this hasn't happened so you went into that disassociation and yet the story you've just told us there is incredibly well thought out and well reasoned and balanced so you obviously have reflected on it at some stage, how did you do that and how did you, and who helped you with it I think I just remember it.

7:34I think I remember, it's more like, I remember everything that happened. I don't know. It depends on how you look at it. Maybe that's reflecting on it, thinking about it. You know, now when I talk about it, maybe that's, you know, me reflecting on it. But I never really, what I mean is I never really afterwards sat down and broke it down and thought about everything properly. I just, that's the story. That's how it happened. But then I really was straight into Japan, triple header. and honestly from that point I didn't really think about it too much again unless I was talking about it or it was brought up or something like that but I never really broke it down is what I mean by it So you never had the chance to speak to a psychologist or a therapist or really kind of try to unpick this I have somebody that I'm very lucky to have in my life that's been with me since I was young and he's been my coach since I first moved to Europe and he was basically somebody that I speak to all the time anyway I still speak to now and he's played a massive role in me as a person I think I'd have a very probably different personality if I didn't actually have him growing up in Europe racing so yeah I spoke to him a lot through all of it and he was very yeah he was very good to talk to about it and what was he able to say that made you feel better?

9:02I mean, the main thing is like all this stuff was happening and there was nothing I could do about it once it had happened. So I was obviously frustrated, devastated at the time, but there was nothing I could do about it anymore. And so it's a very normal thing to say, but it's just focused on the things that you can control and like breaking that stuff down and going, okay, look, it's all done. You're still in Formula One. And that's the thing I think I thought about a lot was there's a lot of guys that got badly treated and were unfairly treated in Formula 1 and were out. Over the years, there's many cases where guys, you'd argue that wasn't fair.

9:43Jack, Doohan, somebody who did five races, that is not fair to judge somebody. I had two and a Red Bull, but even five races as a whole is not fair to judge somebody in Formula 1 again in a season like last year. but I still had a drive so that was what I tried to really focus on and that's what we talked about a lot you still have an opportunity to prove yourself here you still have an opportunity to build a future in Formula 1 that's all still there without focusing on the fact that I lost the dream drive that I wanted since I was young Make sure you stay where you are because in a moment Liam's going to explain to us how it really feels when the world has an opinion about the life you're living and often without the full knowledge We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners.

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12:24I think the other thing, watching from afar, that was difficult with this was I remember when you went back into the VCarb and it was like, right, now he can at least do what he loves to do to show the world what he can do. I thought the hardest thing was how everyone had an opinion about something that they knew nothing about. I mean, particularly when, and I think you've said this since, that you didn't feel broken in that car. Matter of fact, you've just explained to us, you obviously didn't feel broken in the car, in the Red Bull because you were willing to go on a journey with the team to explore what could be done.

12:56So for them to then come out and say, oh, we saw things from Liam. It's crazy. That's exactly right. The whole thing was played out to be me being mentally struggling and all this stuff and they were doing it to protect me and that honestly just could not be further from what it was actually like. So, yeah. Again, at the time, those two weekends, I remember there was a lot, there was already talk about, okay, you know, it's a hard time for him. He must be struggling mentally and stuff like this. And I thought rather than me getting out there and saying, I'm totally fine, you know, and argue against it, I was like, you know, let me take my responsibility here and say I can do a better job, which is what I tried to do on those two weekends.

13:36Every time I get in front of a camera, it was like, I was trying to be grateful and say, you know, this is not good enough. I need to do a better job. But then it was all that that was taken to, oh, he's mentally struggling and that's why we're helping him out. So how does it feel when you see a narrative that's being written for you that you fundamentally disagree with? Well, the thing is, honestly, there's so much of that in Formula One that when it first starts to happen, it's more of a, you're like, wait, that's totally wrong. And then you start to really think about it. But honestly, it's happened so much now, especially with all that's happened like over the last 12 months that you just honestly, you start to just ignore it, to be honest, because there's so many opinions and rumors and things that go around that are just so untrue.

14:25And if you really focus on every single one, it would drive you crazy. And then it goes down to how much you even look into social media and stuff like that. And that's something I just pretty much removed from my life, especially the Formula 1 stuff. Like every single Formula One account is muted. Like it's just completely muted. So I don't see anything to do with it online. So I had people telling me like, oh, do you hear about this? No, no idea. Does that help? For me, it did. Yeah, for me, it made a big difference. There's like little things that have happened to me over my short career in Formula One so far that have like, I think at the time been quite big, but I've looked back on and been grateful for.

15:06And I think that was a thing in Mexico where I realized the stuff with Checo when I first came in, ends 2024, and we had our incident on track. And then I came in and I hadn't even had Instagram notifications muted at that point. And it was just my phone. I've never seen anything like it. The messages, the comments on posts, the craziest stuff you could imagine people saying. even now if I wanted to pull it up and go through like go and find my requests and stuff like this you can't even imagine some of the stuff that people are saying what sort of things? just the most horrible things like just like Formula 1 fans that are supporting a driver but then the driver that they're in competition with they just go and say they just it's like support your driver but I don't know but not like a DM direct to you just a general comment no no DM directly to me but like Like for me to see it, I have to go in and go into my like requests to see it, which I just don't really do.

16:06But if I wanted to and have a look, you could see, then you see all the requests. And when you did see that, what was the impact? I was like, oh my, wow, people are really, first of all, there's a lot more people watching than I realized, which honestly I was so naive when I came in, I just didn't even think about that. And then I was like, okay, this is really serious. and then I was just like this is just not healthy to be reading and looking at so that's when I just wiped it clean I actually deleted all the apps at the time so for the rest of that season I had no social media and then I reinstalled it start of 25 and was like basically I just want to see my friends and my stuff that I want to see and got rid of everything else I'm interested to explore this with you if we can because I was involved in f1 heavily at a time where social media wasn't as prevalent as it was now in fact i remember used to have an app called twit pic to put a picture on twitter it was like a whole separate app you need it was a different time but it was really positive twitter was like used as a place just to praise people no one could believe they were getting access to people who were previously separate from them i think the first time i really saw how it turned was when lewis and max were going head-to-head in 2021 and it stopped being max fans supporting max and lewis fans supporting Lewis and it became the fans of those drivers spending far more time criticizing the other driver than supporting their own driver.

17:32And I really think we could have a brief conversation here that I really hope Formula One fans see and understand is the impact actually on human beings when this stuff is happening and how it's become the most normal thing in the world to send a DM to someone wishing the worst possible thing. the worst possible thing you could ever write like you could think of you know and it's over driving a car in certain literally you know I just want to yeah exactly that's exactly right like the thing is it's just become so much more normal and so like you said it was it just was never a thing and then at the start like you said it was this is a way to support our drivers and then it was now this is a way that we can criticise but it goes I mean it's for us it's like this but it's now it's the same with kids growing up in school and stuff like that you can't escape it at all and it just ends up being every day at all times you can basically you have access to do stuff like that and it's become so much more normal now and it's in politics and it's in all other sports and it's in everyday life I think conversations like this are great because I think people can actually see you rather than just a guy with a helmet on but what is your message for people that send those things not just to you but to other drivers to other sports people to people they're at school with or friends with?

18:50I mean, it's really, it is that. It's just normal people at the end of the day. Like, we're just, as much as we're on TV and, you know, we are very lucky to be doing this, but for us, we're chasing our dreams and for us it's driving a race car. And that's what I wanted to do when I was five years old and I'm very lucky to be doing that now. But I think it's amazing how much the sport has grown and we genuinely love the sort of support that we have. but I just think support your driver you know we love that when we get the support that we get but you don't have to criticise especially when you don't it's more the unknown part of it I think there's so much that probably people just don't actually see or understand and will just jump on something straight away and yeah I don't know I think the main thing is support your driver but you know you don't need to criticise other people But having come through what sounds like a pretty horrific set of circumstances, you know, you are still here.

19:50And that old saying that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. So when you look back over the last 12 months, what would you say your strengths have been? Is it technical, psychological, emotional? It's definitely the psychological stuff. It's just building resilience to that, I think, is for me the biggest thing. Like I cared when I came in. I did probably more as much as we will say we don't like it's new and I think I did like I said I got those, I had my phone blow up and I was like wow this is crazy, like I didn't expect this and through all those experiences in over the last 12 months I think now I'm just in a much better position where I just honestly don't care and I feel that's something I also try and look back on because it's so easy to think that stuff is unfair Yeah, like you always think, oh.

20:42Especially in motorsport, it's the most like, there's so many variables. You know, we look at other sports like golf and tennis and even motocross. Like I love dirt bikes at the moment and I watch it and I just think it's down to, you know, there's differences in bikes, you know, little differences, but it's down to the rider or down to the player. Yeah. And that's it. And whereas for us, there's so many variables that come into it that it's so easy to basically think that you're unlucky when stuff like this happens or that you have bad luck but I think looking back on all the stuff that has happened I think now I'm so much better for it I'm in such a better place and I'm such a better driver and all-rounded person for it honestly So can I just explore that a bit more because we have lots of young people that listen to this and I think when you say we don't care I think there's a subtext that I'm hearing you say about them is you don't care about people that haven't earned the right to give you an opinion I'm sure you do care about certain people in your life.

21:42So how have you decided who are the people that when they speak to you, you go, I'm going to listen to you, but anyone else hasn't earned that right? I think I love the support. So when people are very supportive, that's great, and we definitely love that. But it's really I don't care about, if I don't know somebody and they're giving me an opinion on what I should be doing, that means nothing anymore to me because I have people around me that I trust and those are the people that I go to and listen to and like I said, we all love the support that Formula One has right now. It's in an amazing place and the good support is great but all the opinions and stuff, all the things that are written, the press releases that go out about things, opinions mainly but um on things that we should or shouldn't be doing um it's that stuff that i think you just yeah i just don't even really think about it anymore so there's a chinese proverb right that i that i love and this is obviously how it translates to english if you miss the bus maybe you actually avoided an accident yeah if you got rejected maybe you were actually safe from being in the wrong place.

22:59If they left, maybe they were actually making room for someone who's about to come into your life. The universe protects you in ways that look like bad luck at first, but you have to trust the detour. So my coach that I mentioned, since I was 16 years old, has been telling me exactly that, basically. That's something that we talk about a lot, was just, you know, every time I'd be like, something would happen, he'd just be like, yeah, but you don't know what could have happened if you'd done, you know, if that had happened or something like that. Yeah, with everything in life as well. With an airport plane delay, you know, you're sitting on the plane for an hour or something like that.

23:34You're like, this is so stupid. Why has this happened? And it's just like, you don't know what has happened, what that's doing to protect you maybe. Completely. I mean, there are stories of people who spilled coffee on their shirt or bumped their car or left something in the house, got delayed going into work and were not in the World Trade Center buildings when they were attacked. At the time, they would have been frustrated and annoyed that their day at work was being interrupted. how grateful they are for those incidents and there are thousands of things that could have happened to us in our lives of which we have absolutely no idea whether what looked like a good thing at the time actually is the worst thing ever and equally what feels like the worst thing ever actually eventually can be the best thing that ever happened to us so here's the interesting place that we've got to here have you because I know you didn't have the time to process this last season because it was relentless and it was unforgiving and it was about suddenly showing that you still deserved and needed to be in F1.

24:27You've had a bit of time off over the winter. You've said you're in a great place, and I would fully agree having watched you this season. I think you're driving brilliantly. Have you reached a place in your life yet where you're able to be grateful for what happened at Red Bull? Yeah, I honestly do. I think that's exactly, and it comes exactly back to that, basically. Now, whenever I think about it, I think exactly what I said. Now I feel like I'm a far better driver and a far more resilient driver. And especially in today's Formula One with how much outside noise there is, like really that's such, it's so much more of an important part now to be a good driver, to be a good, basically be good in Formula One right now.

25:12You have to be able to drive the car fast, you know, but everybody can. And it's all really that other stuff that you have to be really, I think resilient too. And I think that's something that I'm now more grateful for because there was so much going on around it, so much noise at the time. And to navigate all of that, it was really hard, honestly, at the time. It was very tough. But look at the evidence you now have. You have evidence that the hardest thing that's ever happened to you in your life, you were able to deal with it. What was, for you, the hardest moment? I think the China weekend, even before I was actually out, I remember the hotel I was in was like an hour from the track.

25:52it was really far away and the drive some of the drives that I had between the hotel and the track I was in the car and I was just sitting there and I was thinking about everything that was going on it must have been probably after qualifying I had a really bad quality and I was just really like really I was pretty upset just about what was going on you know like um trying to just deliver a result and then yeah just that whole that that sort of four or five day going back to London, being excited to just go back to work and then basically getting the phone call and just having, feeling like there's nothing, I don't know, like I wish I'd had a heads, I wish I'd known I had a heads up and just.

26:32There was not one part of you that thought that phone call was coming. No, which is crazy because I remember thinking there was earlier a couple of rumors around that weekend. There was like a start, there started to be a rumor about, okay, you know, Japanese Grand Prix coming up, Yuki's Japanese, you know, do they, do they? and I remember, I honestly remember trusting my team so much and I was like, that's insane that they're even saying that, you know, classic F1 rumours. And then I went back and just, I was like, I couldn't believe it, yeah. Because we've spoken to coaches in different sports areas who say that, like, we had the England Mobile League coach on Sean Wayne who said that nothing I tell you should ever be a surprise to you because communication should have been constant that if you're dropped or you leave at the end of a contract, that doesn't come as a shock because I'll have told you long before that.

27:21And he prided himself on a culture of just pure transparency. What did that tell you about the culture that you were in at Red Bull? I don't want to maybe specify so much that it's just particularly Red Bull, but it's just how Formula One is. There's so many people as well in a Formula One team. It's quite incredible how... And they do an amazing job to work together as a well-oiled machine. And you see, especially in the garage, you see the mechanics, everybody work and they all have such a specific role. The engineering side of Formula One is very, very impressive. But outside of that, there's also the rest of the team, the business side of Formula One, which has an incredible amount of people that work in it.

28:02And when you have that many people working, it's very hard. Things get lost in translation across between people. and yeah, for that to be, I think, for me to understand, I don't know. For sure I can feel like at the time they could have done a much better job at communicating it to me and I wish they had have. But I think stuff like this sort of happens quite a lot where people just don't, you know, stuff, rumours especially, just sort of spread. I think nothing as well can stay really a secret. It's quite crazy how there'll be like a conversation, which is between two people, where it starts.

28:46That's, you know, first conversation about an idea. And it's insane how quickly that just gets out. Because I've kind of been in those conversations. And, you know, for me, it was about when I would be driving a car or when, you know, maybe I'd get a team change or something like this. When it was for me, not when it was against me. But, yeah, those conversations, I was there for like the start of it. and then just straight out of the media. So how does that impact on trust? Because you've spoken about being a team player. You went with the team in China with that idea because you're doing it for the team.

29:19So then when you know that you're in a situation where conversations are not just between us and will stay between us, how does that impact on you on the levels of trust in a team? Massively, but it's very hard to really trust. To truly trust people is very, very hard, honestly. It's very, very hard. For us, we look at it like we're the two drivers that get to drive these incredible cars. And we have these amazing teams around us that are building these cars for us. But everybody is on their own journey in the team. And everybody is also looking after themselves, which is fair because it's their career, their jobs.

29:58So when you have situations, it's very natural for people to protect themselves first. and I think this is also what happens quite a lot in situations it's very yeah it's very hard to trust everybody is very very tough and so I think for me it's about having people that I know I do trust around me mainly on a personal level that I go to and I think what's interesting about this trust thing is that when you had that moment where did you retreat to the original Liam Lawson because this was the picture that you put on your social media. I mean, you're a great artist, bro. You obviously don't like it.

30:39He's like, oh my God, please don't show this. I mean, what a great artist you are. What a great artist you are. What that is. But I did write F1 driver. It looks like I've got, like a... Is it? There is F1 driver. I've got spikes on my head, but for some reason... I mean, it's quite a stomach on that guy. I know. I did have one when I was younger. I did have a bit of a stomach. But you've got the triceps perfectly. Oh yeah. On the picture. I was so interested in why this was what you chose to share with the world in that moment. I guess it was linked, right? It was, I'll tell you what it was. It was a lot of making people understand because at the time there was so much noise around, first of all, how much people think I sucked and why I shouldn't be in Formula 1 and all these kind of things.

31:21And the amount of opinions that were going out and around and stuff like that and through one of the most difficult times of my entire life, just trying to show people that, look, it was my dream to do this and that's basically where it goes back to and just you don't have to be I wasn't going to say stop riding all these crazy things but it's kind of just like maybe just lay off the heat a little bit while I'm going through this crazy time because that's all I wanted to do Maybe a reminder that you're a human because the other it was two photos one was you as a kid like a reminder there's a human being behind this That's it just a dude that wanted to race cars A kid with a dream Yep I love your backstory right and your dad I mean people need to understand your parents sold their house right for you to pursue your racing dream and you started this whole conversation saying like I carry the weight of like a family and a lot of people on my shoulders but your dad early on when you had a tough start in your karting career and you didn't am I right you didn't win a race in your entire first season first season yeah first year of racing and your dad going I don't think you're good enough for this well he would tell me I'd come in basically and be like dude dad, the cart sucks.

32:33My first guy's cart had a rainbow steering wheel. This thing was not a good cart. It was very, very old and the engines were just ones that came with it. They weren't. Karting now, it's like you have to have the best of the best and this thing literally came with what it came with. I ran this for a year and I just ran around the back, literally fighting to just race anybody. Which honestly, again, And even like I look back now, so grateful for that year because when I got good gear, the race craft that I had versus kids around me was so different, honestly, versus like a kid that I grew up with that started with the best and just didn't have the same when it came to it, when it came to a last lap one-on-one dice.

33:23That stuff that, yeah, I got from that year. Not that he knew that he was doing that for me. Do you not think? No, he didn't. I was like, is his dad just so incredible as some sort of sports psychologist? He gave his son a shit cart and then filled his brain with doubt so that if he got through that, it would have built you. It did, but he didn't know it, honestly. He didn't know it. I'm sure because he would tell me, I know, Liam, I know it's bad, but we can't afford it and stuff like this. And then one day, he obviously just got sick of my complaining and basically bought these two engines, these like two, won a couple of titles, got these two engines.

34:03And I remember when we put them on, we put them on for a qualifying of this big race. And when I say like I had come from running last, like literally last, put these engines off a qualifying. And I remember looking at my dad and them looking at me kind of like, this is where we find out, you know, kind of like that moment. And I went out and qualified pole. like it wasn't like I just went to the front you know I qualified first and I could not believe it and the best part is you have like you know people have like multiple engines that go karting we always were restricted we normally had one good engine and then maybe a backup engine or something like that but we'd have one good one and we got we loved it so much you know I had this good engine qualified first had a good race and we'd go to club days you know literally club days and be like what engine should we run yeah let's run the good one and we ran it so much that it blew up basically and then we had to then borrow somebody else's you know engine again because yeah counting's expensive you pushed over this bit but the bit that like stood out for me when I was sort of looking at your career was the ability to keep going when you come in last is remarkable like lots of people would have sort of given up at some stage or decided that I can't have the best kit so I can't compete where did that resilience and that confidence in your own ability come from that even when you come in last you still believe with the right opportunities I can do this I think that comes from my parents because you know when you look at if you went back to you know six-year-old me starting go-karts and looked at you know first of all my family with absolutely zero experience in motorsport my dad watched Formula One a little bit watched various supercars and that was probably it but that had no understanding.

35:52So through the early years of go-karting, he's literally learning to tune engines and stuff like this. He would stand on a corner, we'd go testing, and we did test more than anybody, but we'd go out there, it'd be a wet day, and somebody told him that it was a good idea for me to run on slicks. So that's what we'd do, and I'd go out there on my go-kart, and he'd stand on a corner and tell me, this is where you've got to break. Like, this is where you have to break, where I'm standing. And as a kid, obviously, if your dad tells you that, you're just going to do that. So I would and he would just keep taking a step.

36:23Again, this is all stuff like I find out afterwards, but he would just keep taking a step until literally I would fire off the end of the straight. And find your limit. And that's the limit. And then I would start breaking there and stuff like that was what we'd do growing up. But he gave me the mindset because my dad is one of the hardest working people that I know and watching him as a kid growing up, working with the work ethic that he had. And he would tell me that if you work hard enough for something since I was very young if you weren't hard enough something that you can achieve it and there's so much negativity in New Zealand especially and Australia and that part of the world where to like if you're a kid like I go to a go-kart track now and and you know kids you know want photos and autographs and stuff like that and I'll ask them what do you want to race and that like honestly a seven-year-old kid will tell me oh I want to be a Formula One driver like you but it's too hard you know it's too impossible you know my dad told me it's too expensive and I'm like you're seven years old.

37:20You know, you can't, as much as something is very hard and very unrealistic, I feel like it's a terrible mindset or terrible thing to teach your son to have that mindset. And that's where I feel lucky that my parents told me if I wanted to do something and I worked hard enough for it. And that just stuck with me, honestly, through everything, because I would get told when I, when, in the same situation, you know, even guys that I looked up to, which I won't mention but would say I'd meet them my moment of meeting one of my heroes I said I want to be a Formula 1 driver and he told me that it's oh dude you can't do that these days and they were a Formula 1 driver they weren't a Formula 1 driver but they were a pro they were a pro driver and I was 13 years old going into my first racing season of of cars you know out of go karts I just won a $20 ,000 scholarship to race this this Formula V car and New Zealand Formula 1st car.

38:17And yeah. But I remember just not even caring a little bit, you know, he told me that and I was just like, oh, okay. Didn't phase me at all. Like it didn't change anything. It wasn't like he told me that and I was like, oh, that sucks. I just didn't care. And so for some reason, and I feel lucky that that stuck with me, that stuck with me all the way that like, just not ever really doubting that it would happen somehow. That stuck with me all the way into you have any idea where that's come from no that's so i feel like it came from my dad you know and and when i was very very young there's things that he would tell me and and um you know the amount of father-son conversations you have on the way to a go-kart track six hour drives across the country like to a go-kart race he used to get these cds and there was this person that's like coach that he found when i was i was like young you know 10 years old there was this coach that he would listen to.

39:10It was somebody that basically talked about the importance of getting sponsorship and networking and communicating, of work ethic, of training and stuff like this, and mindset. And there were these different topics, and I'd listen to them on the way to these races. And seven years later, he's the coach that I started working with, ironically, when I came to Europe. It's Enzo. And he basically, it was wild. I was a 10-year-old kid listening to his CDs and goosebumps. Like listening, I'd like listen to these CDs, no idea who this guy was. And then seven years later, I moved to Europe and started working with Enzo.

39:44And he was with me every single race as my coach. Are you a believer in fate and those things happen for a reason? Yeah, 100%. Because I look back at my career, there's just no way that the amount of things that happened when they did and so many situations where I was like, that, how did that not, at the time that I thought was not a good thing, which then I'm so grateful for, because it put me in a better position in other situations. So I just, yeah, there's no way that the amount of things that happened for me that I was meant to do this. Lots of educators talk about the car journey home can either light a flame in a young athlete or it can douse it.

40:23You know, like when parents are overly critical or talking about it. Can you remember, apart from the CDs, any sort of words of wisdom that your dad gave you on these long car journeys that that you still hold on to today it's really that belief you know like i remember there was this race that there was this race that basically was my one of my first big big races that i was doing as a kid and we just we just got these engines and and like things were starting to work out we're starting to be competitive and and i knew it was this big race that was coming up and we testing for it. And I remember him telling me, I must've been, I must've been like a bit nervous for it or, you know, a bit doubtful.

41:03Maybe I must've said something to him that maybe he made me, that was a reason that he started to tell me this, but he kept telling me like, tell yourself you're going to win. Like, just keep telling yourself you're going to, you're going to win this race. No matter what, you're going to win this race. And don't tell other people because my dad hates arrogance. Like if I ever became arrogant in a way that, you know, he honestly he was like, if you ever forget where you came from, I'll pull the pin on everything. Love that. And he'd tell me that since I was real young. So he was always, it was really important to not be arrogant, but to be confident.

41:36And there's a way you can do that without being arrogant. And I think that's self-belief. And he'd tell me this, before this race, he'd tell me over and over, just keep telling yourself. And so I went to this race and the whole way there, I'm just telling myself, I'm going to win this, going to win this. And in this race, I spun off, like I went to the back of the field, start of the race, and I was buried. And I remember like, and honestly, it should have just been over. But the importance of this race and everything we talked about, I remember like just having so much of a belief that I could still win.

42:06And I just drove through the field and won this race. And it was kind of crazy. But like it just, that story, that race and me realizing what I feel like I'd potentially manifested leading up to it, that stuck with me forever, really. Like I remember it so like detailed now. Brilliant. Can I talk about some of the people that are around you now? Because I think a lot of people don't understand the challenge for an Antipodean driver because the European guys can still pop home and see mum and dad at the weekend. They can still go to the odd Christmas party or whatever. You have to take on a whole other responsibility when you have to leave New Zealand or Australia and come over to Europe.

42:47One of those things is having to have other people around you. Can I talk a little bit about Alan Pemain? and the culture that he's created at the team you're at now. Because I think a lot of where you're at now mentally doesn't happen if there's not a great culture where you are at the moment. What did they do for you towards the back end of last season, over the winter and the start of this season? Well, I think there was a couple of things. There was, there's one, there's last year, the start of the season was, when I went back to VCarb was very hard.

43:25And basically, I'd always raced, when I'd been with VCarb both times before this, I'd raced with one side of the garage. And I worked with Pierre, who's with Arvid now. And for me coming into F1, I think he was the perfect, he's so experienced. And for me, he was like the perfect engineer to work with to learn about Formula One, learn coming in. but when the switch happened the way it worked out Isaac was working with him at that point so I went to the other side of the garage and worked with a totally new crew and started working with Ernie who's in a different role this year but he was my engineer last year Ernesto and I will always no matter however my F1 career pans out I'll always reflect on him as being somebody that honestly I don't know if saved is the right word but kind of saved my Formula 1 career or he made a big impact last year because the car, I was struggling with how it was to drive last year because there's always little things that drivers like out of a car.

44:25And especially after driving a Red Bull, going back to V Cup, they are so different, despite what people think. They are so different. There we go again. And like, it was, I was really struggling with it. And we kind of did, we basically ended up doing something. He had an idea to do something that was a very, what you would argue is a makeshift sort of fix for especially for f1 with how high level it is we did something that was i think 90 engineers just wouldn't really do or not think to do because it's it's quite a just a different thing to do but he had an idea to do it and we tested it and we we tried it and i basically drove it in the sim and i was like what is this because this is so nice it was just the way the front suspension would work and the way the steering would work for me and uh you like more front end i'm more front end but it's the response and like how you like super responsive super responsive how fast especially how fast that you know that rack is and how how it feels um and that's something that yeah basically we he put on the car we ran it in austria and i went from no points to qualifying six finishing six season just turned around right there and then we started we started scoring so he's somebody that played a really big role in that um and then obviously with alan i think the difference is we work so closely with engineers and Alan obviously was, you know, chief, you know, sort of chief engineer when he was in the team.

45:47So when I was coming into Formula One, that was his role. So I already had so many technical conversations and engineering conversations and, you know, car and driver conversations that you would normally have with an engineer with him. So when he got that, when he, when he basically went to team principal, nothing really changed on that side. We still have these, that really close relationship and talk about stuff on a personal side, on a car side, what works for us. and I think that honestly has been something that has been quite cool in a different way that most probably team principals don't have.

46:19I find there's real parallels there though between that example you said with Ernie coming up with a suggestion that you said 90 % of engineers wouldn't have done it and the experience in China where you were sat in a meeting that 90 % of engineers wouldn't have come up with that solution either. What intrigues me there is how you responded on that second occasion sounds to me that you were still open-minded, you were still curious, and you were still trusting other people despite what had gone on earlier. Yeah, I mean, it's true. I didn't really, I probably didn't think about it too much. I didn't think that because of what had happened, I didn't, I don't remember thinking maybe I shouldn't trust this, but I also, that point of the season was not working, you know, and I needed to do something.

47:02So I was very much open to this could work. And also I'd driven it in the simulator and honestly, I'd driven it and known that this straight away as well, that it was so much more, felt so much more comfortable to a car that I'd driven so many times. That for me, if I was like, if this feels this comfortable after three laps, not even that, it was after three corners. I remember just driving it and being like, this is just so much more comfortable. So that I knew, I actually knew, I was really excited. I wasn't even nervous to try it. We went to Austria and I was like, let's go. I'm so excited to get to drive, you know, this.

47:36And it, yeah. But there's something there as well about your courage. I appreciate maybe it's harder for you to acknowledge that, but the courage to put yourself back in that position of trusting other people and doing a bit of a Hail Mary pass. But it sounds like you're still the guy that's going to be in the spotlight if it doesn't come off. Yeah, I'd probably say I'm more open to do stuff that's a bit more left field. And when trying stuff with the car and stuff like this, and even now on weekends, doing something like that, is probably a little bit extreme, but if I have confidence in it, then I'll...

48:13It takes courage, though, in a world of scrutiny. Yeah. Where does that come from? I don't know. I actually don't know. But if we're going to trace it back, like you talk about the role of your dad, what were they doing to nurture that courage, that willingness to put yourself out there? I don't know. I think it maybe even then goes in some ways back to, like I really as a kid I had people around me that were amazing at networking and sort of you know getting sponsors and stuff like this but one thing I had to do when I was getting my first sort of sponsors to move into car racing we set up this 500 club which was basically we had these like pamphlets made that was like join my 500 club and it basically was I just go around New Zealand houses businesses in my area and just be like, can you, you know,$500, join my 500 club and I'm working towards starting this Formula Ford season, I think it was at the time.

49:14And so like, I remember I was so nervous to do this. Like I hated, I was always really worried about doing it. And so I remember at the time that was a big deal being like, like building the courage to go in there and just do that kind of thing. I think I've had like quite a few experiences in my life like that. It's so funny, isn't it? Those little things that seem insignificant. at the time. Here we are all these years later, they make you a better F1 driver. They make me literally, yeah, exactly. Make sure you stay where you are because in a moment, Liam's going to tell us what it was really like sharing a team with Max Verstappen and what makes Max the driver that he is.

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52:22Max Verstappen. Yeah. Particularly when it was difficult for you. what did he teach you about how people who have power should behave when someone else is going through a difficult time in general max was just always very real you know like he's somebody that in such a in such a high level you know position was you know such an accomplished position that he's had so much success it'd be very easy for him to not be like that and it's not just with me he seems to be like that you know with everybody and i think max is somebody that just wants to race cars and loves to talk about cars loves to talk about racing and so when i came in he was just always very, even when I was a reserve, actually, like I always noticed that he would always make an effort to like, just acknowledge me and say hi and stuff like this.

53:04And when I first was a reserve, this is ages ago. So it was like 2021 or 2022 was like the first couple of times I'd go to a race as a reserve. And even then, you know, I knew I was racing F2. I said, he'd come and ask me about it. How's F2 going? You know, what's, how's the car? What do you, you know, how's everything feeling? I just like, the fact that he was asking me about my stuff, I remember at the time it was just really cool and he's just he's always been very real like that so and then when I went to Red Bull through all of it he was very supportive you know I won't go too much into detail about it but he was he was very supportive you know very very supportive because I I remember seeing a couple comments he made and a couple of social media posts he liked and I know it's very difficult for him because he's still in the team and things but I sort of felt like he went about as far as he could to tell the world that what happened wasn't right does that ring about life?

53:56Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Honestly, he was, yeah. He was, I spoke to him during, you know, I spoke to a lot of people during that time, but I spoke to him, you know, about how, you know, about it basically. And he was, he was very supportive, yeah. And what did that mean to you? I think I just really, you know, appreciated it. I think it was, it was somebody that, you know, I think I was so excited to, not to go against him, but to be, to go, you know, being a team with him and be able to have the opportunity to basically be in a car that's the same as him and just see everything that he does and basically have a driving lesson from the best in the sport basically.

54:38And that was something I was very excited for and I never went in there. These guys that go in there and talk about trying to go in and beat him straight away and it's just such a stupid thing to do. I think it's more having somebody like him to learn off was very exciting for me. Can you give us a moment where you saw him do something and thought, he's good. Not even necessarily when you shared a team, but at some point you would have had a... I'll never forget this. This is one that was... So the very first time I went into Formula 1 was Zandvoort and it was wet in FP3 and I'd never driven the car or the track together.

55:15It was a very hard weekend and obviously it was when Daniel had his injury. So I basically went out trying to learn the car, trying to drive on an intermediate side, which I'd never driven before. And we're getting through the session. And basically in a Formula One car, especially last year's cars, and like the previous generation, you have to be so confident to drive these cars. Like the commitment you have to have, which is also why the Red Bull thing was probably even more evident for me that it looked really, really tough is because even if you're at 99%, you're slow. you know you're losing so much lap time you have to be so committed so it's wet and towards the end of the session I was trying to build up you know confidence driving this car and we come around the sort of last corner second to last corner and I'm leading them by and Max comes by me and just power slides this Formula 1 car across the curb and I just remember seeing it and just being like I am there's no way I can do that right now like I am not I'm so uncomfortable yes it was my first session in the car, but I was just like, there's no way.

56:21And I came around the next lap and I remember just being like, I'm going to send it. And I slid out and I spun the car. And I spun down the hill and I was just like, oh, man. But he has so many moments where he just catches a car that is so on the limit. Like Barcelona last year, he had that save out of the last corner, which is just one of the biggest saves I've ever seen. Little things like that that probably people don't even remember, but you see it from a driver's perspective and you go, that is that is impressive and then it's the biggest honestly the biggest all-rounder though is his the way he races which I've literally personally had experience with now I had it with him in Miami a couple of races a couple of races ago in the in the race where just he's just everybody has their ways of racing but he's he's different to race against it's he's yeah it's sort of mindset of just you either back out do you crash is just how in every situation we were racing for probably p10 well what do you see that's like wow that's different uh just the commitment level i think of and also just putting giving it almost just gives you the option of you either stay there and we crash together or i'm coming by kind of thing so and there's an interesting sort of mental bit of gymnastics for you as well which is where you can have huge respect for someone like that but also your job is to believe that you can be that guy.

57:48You can be a full-time world champion. You can be a seven-time world champion. When you see someone driving like that, is it daunting or is it inspiring? It's more inspiring because at the end of the day, as maybe arrogance just comes across, we all have that inner belief. We all believe that we can do. Obviously, we can win. So, yeah, for me, it's like his, I guess he's how many years in Formula One now? Yeah. I think if I was to think about myself, if I had that much time in Formula 1, I'd probably be a much better all-rounded driver than I am now. I don't, I think, compare myself like that, but I do try and race them in these situations.

58:32So every time I get, like in Miami, we basically came together, we touched, crashed into each other a little bit and I do try and race them in these situations because in general, I always try not to back out anyway. like there's not somebody I would really do that with and I'd try to race everybody sort of the same and not look at somebody different but yeah it is always different with Max yeah but I also think as a driver there's moments where you have to decide to like lay the like I think in Canada George was just laying a gauntlet down there and being like no this is like this isn't happening now like we are we're going to race each other do you know what I mean?

59:12And I think there's a moment where you have to decide that in your career. Max and Lewis, 2021, the first part of the year, Max was literally just every time they were next to each other, he would just door them. Lewis would get pushed off. Lewis would back out. And he was racing smart, but there's a point where you can't race smart anymore because the other guy just knows that every single time you're going to lift. And basically, they get to Silverstone and he didn't lift. and then that's what happens basically. So it's exactly that. I think, yeah, there's situations where there's being a smart driver and I feel like this year I'm trying to do more of that as well compared to some of the incidents I had last year or just the amount of incidents, let's say, where I was just not getting a result out of a weekend and I think this year trying to be a smarter driver but also keeping that, you can't let people walk all over you.

1:00:07And do you watch back full races? No. and maybe that's a bad thing maybe that's something I can do better but I yeah I don't but I because I always I basically I try not to watch I watch something if I want to learn from something if something happened in particular that I'm like okay I want to re go over this then I will which we do a lot you know we spend so much time looking at onboards and stuff like this but to watch just to watch a race I normally won't whether it's good or bad because I feel like I'd be biased if I was just watching the good stuff Well, I think sometimes people think if you lean more into something, then you can be better at it.

1:00:44But there's also an argument, and we've spoken actually about this over the last hour or so, like sometimes not so much of that is good. And I know that music's important to you, playing the guitar's important to you. I'm really interested in what that, other than just being something that you enjoy, what that actually does for you. That's something that I've realized in the last probably couple of years, especially the last year, that the stuff I do that I enjoy outside of the car is so important to how I feel. and how I approach a weekend and how my mindset is during the weekends. And even on the weekend, you know, just at the end of the day, you know, from 8am to 7 or 8pm, you're so, you're just, all you're working and talking and thinking about is Formula One, making the car better, you know, the result, that when you go back to the hotel, even then I just switch off and basically will do something that is not related to, that basically I don't even think about F1 until the next morning, honestly.

1:01:39And then away from races as well. So music's a big part of it. What does it do for you? It's just a way to switch off. It's relaxing. It's just very peaceful, I guess. Something I just enjoy doing as well. And when you play, do you play to get better or do you play just for the pleasure of it? Play for the pleasure of it because I grew up playing to get better, studied exams when I was a kid and grateful for it now because it gave me the base to sort of be able to play. But at the time I didn't enjoy it. Like it was really, it was so intense that I was just always, every time I picked up a guitar, I was studying an exam book, trying to study for this exam.

1:02:13And I stopped playing because of it, because I was like, I just can't do this anymore. And then I stopped for like five or six years and then picked it back up again. And since then, I've only played stuff that I want to play and that I want to do. See, look at that full circle moment though, like when we started talking about you drive and you drive as a kid for the pleasure of it. Yeah, but do I play better? I don't know. I don't know if I play any better because of it, but it is important to, I mean, for sure it's important to enjoy what you do and try and get the enjoyment out of it. But it is like, you know, we have a good result and it's, it really doesn't.

1:02:49Maybe for me it's because I haven't achieved the goal I set out to do. So these feel like maybe steps along the way, have a P7, a P5, whatever it is, you know, qualify third last year. Those are, they more feel like moments along the way and they really don't last long. They last, yeah, an hour. I love the simplicity of just playing the guitar. It gives you a break from the mad circus that is Formula One. I think maybe that's part of it. I have one that goes to every single hotel I stay in and every single dry room at the track. Basically, I have a guitar in there, so I can just pick it up and play it.

1:03:21Do you ever play before a race? Yeah, 100%. I mean, Arvid and those guys have to sit and listen to me playing in the office all the time. What's your pre-race tune? Well, if I warm up, I'll listen to music and get much more amped up. but for in between sessions I'll just play it's mainly probably mainly country music because it's quite easy to play some are like even older before we go to our quick fire questions I love this idea of the guitar because I think it preserves a bit of who you are as a person we've had Fernando Alonso on the show and we asked him the cost of Formula 1 he said personal relationships you know he's now a father at the time he wasn't and he said I had to delay my life for Formula 1 Lando Norris used the word I'm lonely Nika Rosberg was the most recent episode that went out just a few days before we recorded this and he talks about the mental cost of the sport whether it is relationships or whether it is your own mental clarity what is the cost for you of this life it sounds kind of quite sad but it's probably just happiness I think it's probably just happiness I think people probably think you're a lot happier because of the position I'm in.

1:04:36And like I said, don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't understand how lucky I am to be here, but because of that thing that we're so focused and driven towards, I feel like I'm not happy until I do it, until I achieve it. So for me, it's probably just overall happiness. I have happy moments for sure. It's not that I'm not happy all the time, but just overall in life. at the moment and you and going back to where we started even after this like really interesting wide ranging conversation do you really still think that if because you're not you're not in control right like you can determine your habits but you can't determine your dreams your dream is to be former and world champion but that doesn't control the quality of the car the quality of the opposition whether you're on form or not whether it rains on a day when you know we've seen world titles get won and lost by things totally out of control of a driver you can't put your happiness in the hands of something that you don't control which is becoming a Formula 1 world champion yeah I guess I've I just I don't really I don't think I can really look at it like that right I think I can't really afford to look at it like that so I think until it either does or doesn't happen I won't know you know I think until that happens this is how I feel like I'll always feel it's how I've always felt since I was young at least You just have to be aware of the cost and happy to pay the price Yeah, I totally am Obviously you've spent so much time around these elite sports individuals and teams It's funny to know whether to fully commit and leave no margin for error is actually the fastest and best way to do it or whether to have some freedom and enjoyment is the best way to do it, do you know what I mean?

1:06:25yeah because it's always like oh if the more you enjoy it the better you perform it's like the classic yeah but no one allows themselves it's impossible like well it's not impossible i think you have to reach a certain point someone like lewis or even max could probably because they've achieved you know what they set out to do but when you haven't i don't think no matter how good you are training your mind or thinking about stuff i don't think you can do that i don't think you can convince yourself to just purely enjoy something for me and not think about just the amount like I said the amount of sacrifice, the amount of stuff behind this, the importance of it.

1:06:58I definitely try, but there's always pressure. There's always, you can't get rid of that. So you say you try, give us some examples of how you, because it sounds quite draining that if you're thinking about that sacrifice of others. Yeah. So how do you sort of try and square that paradox? I think, I mean, gratitude is a big part of it. So being grateful for like where, for me, where I came from, obviously I'm very lucky, very fortunate to be in this position. and from New Zealand, it's really, it's just really hard. So, you know, I have like my best mate is somebody that is also a racing driver.

1:07:32We grew up racing each other and, but he just hasn't been as fortunate as I have. And so I spend a lot of time with him, but he's somebody that constantly reminds me that, you know, he's extremely, there's absolutely zero jealousy from him, which, you know, is honestly, I just love that about him. but yeah to be for me like knowing that he just didn't get the same opportunities but I did I have to be I just have to be grateful because it's so easy to just get used to what you're doing and like I'll complain about the smallest thing and then be like wait a second still pretty sick you know like to be doing this See that conversation about what you made reminds us of the research that have you seen about like the silver medal mindset that there's research that it says like silver medalists in Olympic Games often report they're unhappier than bronze medalists because silver medalists look up and go, I could have won a gold, whereas bronze medalists go, I could have come fourth.

1:08:27I'm on the podium, yeah. Yeah, so at least I'm there. Does that make sense? Second's the worst thing ever, yeah. Like there's nothing, and I've come second so many times in my career, which just sucks. But yeah, second sucks. There's nothing worse than that, I think. But then how do you keep, so lots of people talk about gratitude, but what do you do to remind yourself to be grateful? For me, it's my childhood. I just think back to being young. So honestly, like that's the easiest way for me is to go, okay, you know, eight-year-old Liam, you know, wanting to be a Formula One driver would obviously love to be, like because I remember even thinking if I could just get to F3 that that would be, like that would feel amazing.

1:09:08Like what would it be like? And yeah, you just, every step you take, it becomes the new normal and then you're just always looking at the next thing and even getting the Formula 1 when I was closed for a long time if I could just be a Formula 1 driver and then the second you're in it's just straight away results now, now I've got to perform get a top 10, you've got to do more, you've got to score more points get a top 5 you're just constantly chasing the next thing and I think that until we all have this goal of winning and in my head at least and maybe this is from past experience, it won't be like this, but in my head, the goal is to win once you achieve that.

1:09:48Maybe that mindset changes, but until then. You're talking about a world championship? Yeah. So you don't think that you could rest or be happy until you're a world champion? Well, not completely, no. Like I wouldn't feel like I fully succeeded, no. So we had Johnny Wilkinson, one of the greatest rugby players of all time on our podcasts. What year were you born? 2002. Yeah, okay. So you probably don't remember this because you were one year old, but we won the Rugby World Cup in 2003. We're still dining out on it, right, in this country. Ball came to Johnny, left foot, dropped goal, last moment of the game, like nothing happened afterwards.

1:10:21He ran around crazy. How long do you think he told us he was happy for? Honestly, I think he was happy that evening maybe or... No. Really? 30 seconds. No way. And that's winning the World Cup because here's the challenge for you, right? you might tell yourself that when I win a world title, I'll be happy. But there's a very strong possibility that the minute you do it, you go, oh, now I need to show the world that I wasn't a one title wonder. So can I do it again? Oh, I've done it twice. Shit, can I catch Max? Can I catch Lewis? Can I catch Michael? But this is a really lovely place to start this conversation.

1:11:01You've got to find the joy in this process. Because let's imagine you never win a world title, right? you win how many races did Mark Webber win nine races or David Coulthard 13 races great drivers never won the world title they can't not be happy that they drove in Formula 1 for years and won races like that's an amazing achievement I don't know if they are yeah but I don't know are they? I feel like they because that's like the 1 % of the 1 % you want the 1 % of the 1 % of the 1 % I know but you don't think of it like that you don't think I mean it's important to that's where the gratitude comes in and when you're when you're struggling with stuff and you're thinking this is shit like this is frustrating but yeah i think like that's that's where it's important to go okay actually i'm in a very incredible position but i think also anybody that has done anything anybody that has achieved any of their goals or like has gone that extreme they all have that same mindset which is why they're still doing it why guys like max is still racing he's won you know four so wait how many has max won yeah four four so it's you're just constantly chasing and we've struggled with this question on this show so often because we've had people on like rio ferdinand man united defender finished his career came on the show and said never enjoyed it i didn't allow myself to enjoy it because it was all about the next win yeah now there's a strong argument that the reason he had so much success was because he never enjoyed it and if you were enjoying it maybe you don't get the success and it's what that's what you want that's where yeah then if you're not enjoying it what's the point i don't yeah i don't know that the enjoyment part's an interesting one because that's the thing we're always actually trying to like the most common advice is just go out and enjoy it you'll you'll drive at your best if you just go out and enjoy it and i think honestly i think back to some of my some of my better performances like there's a race where i got my rebel contract as a kid was just this race where I basically went around the outs.

1:13:01I did a big overtake in the wet for a pass and then won this race in New Zealand in the Toyota Racing Series. And as a kid, the Toyota Racing Series in New Zealand was like Formula One. That was like the, and I always wanted to race in it. And so every year I would watch it, but I was never old enough. And I was, I mean, I was still in go-karts for obviously a long time. But then when I finally got to drive in it, But it was such, it was honestly, for me, it was like getting the drive in Formula 1. And I remember being so excited. And I went into the first weekend and there was no expectation on performance.

1:13:34I was racing Armstrong, Marcus Armstrong, who'd come off FIA F3 that year. Ferrari, he was driving with Ferrari at the time. Lucas Hauer was doing it. He was a Red Bull driver. And I remember seeing his Red Bull helmet in the, like, he was in the same team as me. And I was just like, oh, Red Bull driver. Like, it was so cool. and that weekend I just, honestly I was just so excited to race in it and gave one of the best performances ever and I was really just enjoying it, didn't really know what I was doing to be honest it was pure free driving without any and then I came out of the weekend and had won, you know, leading the championship which was just not even what I'd really thought about or was considered possible and then from then on it became so much more intense and you could also argue that then I probably made more mistakes and it was actually probably not as like my best performance was round one by far.

1:14:29See, I wonder whether that tallies to when you got the chance to replace Daniel in Formula One for those few races and everyone was like, Liam's amazing, he's come straight in with zero prep. Maybe you had that freedom then as well? I think more so, yes, than when you were actually, yeah, you're probably right. So if you think of, there's three things you've said there that if you break it down. So one is expectation, two is ability, and then three is the consequences of success or failure. Which of those three do you struggle most with? Probably the failure, I would say. For me, I really think about how much it's taken to get here and how many people I would let down, I think, if I didn't.

1:15:10It's my dream, obviously, but I know how many, there's just so many people that have given. In my sort of situation, there's really an incredible amount of people that have made this all happen and that are right there on this journey with me. Then I come from a small country as well, so I feel like the whole of New Zealand is also there. So I think for me, I don't want to let that side of people down, and myself as well. Should we finish with some quick fire questions? Yeah, let's do it. What would a 10-year-old Liam say to you today, do you think? You're pretty cool, man. probably something like that like uh yeah what's it like driving a formula one car which is crazy because that's the question i hate the most what i get is the most generic question what's it like driving a formula one car and i think that's what i would ask myself as a 10 year old kid yeah what would you say to that 10 year old kid well really what my dad was telling me it's just that's for me been the most important thing that if you believe in something and you work hard enough for it that you can honestly achieve anything you want what would you say to your parents and your family that you may have already told them, but you can never say it too often?

1:16:17Thank you. Oh, it's just, yeah, it's, thank you for, like, I feel like I'll never be able to almost repay the amount of sacrifice that, and it's not just about just money, you know, it's not just, you know, my, we found, my dad, my parents found this card recently, it's like a year ago, that my brother had ridden my dad. My brother's two years younger than me. We found this card that he'd ridden when he was like five years old or six years old. And the card was like, dear dad, if I like racing, will you spend more time with me? Like Liam. And like that, like honestly, like for my siblings and family that have just given up so much, like time with my dad, time with, and never going on holiday, never doing anything, just always yeah that's oh my god that's actually like that does actually get you you know yeah I have an amazing family so when you saw that what did you say to your brother that's just sorry man you know he he now looks at it and laughs and thinks it's funny and stuff like that but I just I think back to every single week and being away so yeah next question we're all gonna be crying oh my god you alright yeah no no I'm out of water anyway so it's alright oh fuck yeah what are the three non-negotiable behaviours that you and everyone around you in your inner circle has to buy into work ethic is it's gotta be number one like belief it's all stuff we talked about but belief like self-belief um and that you know determination all comes into it I think I don't know.

1:18:08I don't know what number three is. We'll let you have two of them. What's the greatest advice you've ever received? Honestly, again, it's all the same. It's linked back. It's what my parents and my dad told me when I was young. If you genuinely believe in something, if you want to do this and you believe in it and you work hard enough, it doesn't matter what anybody says that you can do it. What's your biggest strength? I find it really hard to say stuff that I feel like I'm really good at. But it'd be something like outside of driving, it's just probably just that resilience, I think. But it's from my childhood, from being young.

1:18:47And also from what's happened to you in the last couple of years. Yeah, that's probably been quite impactful as well. Yes. What's your greatest weakness? To be simple, and this has been since I was young as well, and it's something I worked on a lot, but it's just a simple, like if you look at qualifying versus racing, like I've always been a racer and like I think that's a strength as well you know it comes and ties into that like I've raced my way to like to do well as a kid all my national titles you know that I won I'd qualify like 11th or 10th you know and just race my way through in the heats and qualifying has always been something that has been not as strong as a race and therefore I would say is not necessarily weak but it's that's my I'd want to make that as good.

1:19:35And after everything that's happened to you, what does high performance mean to you now? I think my entire life has been based on it. Everything we do is working towards being better at this one thing that we're trying to do. So there's so many things that we obviously try and work on and stuff like that, but I think it's just my whole life has been focused on being high performance, being trying to reach the highest level of my sport. And I think that's what also drove me towards Formula One as a kid was not necessarily that it's Formula One, but it's the pinnacle. It's the highest level. You know, as a kid, if you ask, if you didn't know anything, you said, what's the highest level of racing?

1:20:23It's Formula One. That's the top level. Best drivers, best cars, fastest. And as a kid, I was very competitive. I am very competitive. and I just wanted to be that best at whatever I was doing. And I think that's what drove me towards Formula One was just set at the highest level. And you're there. Nearly. Nearly there. There you go. Look, mate, thank you so much for that conversation. That's right. Damien. Jake. Oh, I don't know how I feel about that conversation. Amazing vulnerability. As a person, I think, wow. like if that was my son I'd be so proud of him absolutely but when you ask someone what's the price of doing this and they say their happiness oh my goodness like we can't skirt over that and I think we can talk about it in the context of Liam but we can also talk about it in the context of so many high performers if you're trading your happiness for the thing you want to achieve are you a high performer?

1:21:27that's the million dollar question isn't it and I think it's a theme we've just seen so often, you know, from these people that have traded a lifetime to go after one particular goal or target and then get it and realise it maybe wasn't everything that they thought it was before they did it, but you almost have to go through it to experience it. I remember reading Matthew Perry, the guy from Friends, said that he said if I could give one gift to the world, it would be teaching them that being rich, being famous, being adored by so many people does not solve your problems, but nobody believes it until everybody still queues up to sort of have all those things foisted upon them.

1:22:11I think we're looking at it from the perspective of two men that are nearly 25 years older than Liam. Ouch. Yeah, I know, yeah, but I think sometimes that we can look at it and go, honestly, don't trade those moments of happiness for it. but you need to experience it yourself to understand it because otherwise it feels like you're selling yourself short, the sacrifices he recognises his family have made, you know, I'm letting them down. He's attaching lots of really quite powerful emotive weight to that belief that he has to achieve this for them. I do fully understand it though, by the way. Absolutely.

1:22:51I fully understand why he doesn't allow himself to enjoy this because if he allows himself to enjoy this, having had a few good points finishes in F1. The fear is, oh, that removes the fire to become the world champion. But I think, you know, he said it a couple of times, didn't he? He said, I said, asking about F1 drivers, we're not as happy as you think. Like, this is obviously a recurring theme. And I wonder whether actually that should be more of our job. We should lean more into this with people. Maybe we do it enough already, I don't know. But like, trying to change what people think high performance is.

1:23:22There's so many shows and so many messages out there about optimisation and finding an edge and pushing yourself to the limit and sacrificing everything for the achievement. Maybe we need to lean further towards the fact that there is no joy at the end of that life. Yeah. Well, there's so much like performative bullshit that gets on my nerves about people telling you that you've got to sacrifice everything, you can't have fun, you've got to focus relentlessly. And I think what Liam's giving us is that paradox because he's saying when he plays, when he was a kid and he was doing it just for the pleasure of it, that was when he was liberated and that was actually when he was at his best.

1:24:02And yet he's in a world that demands he has to put on this image, this mask of being serious and being relentless. And yet that then inhibits his performance. So how he finds that sweet spot of playing for the love of it and actually still wanting to win. I'm going to love watching his story over the years develop because I think he could be a poster boy for this new way of thinking about high performance. Fully agreed. Thanks a lot, mate. Thank you, mate. So there you go, the latest F1 driver to join us on high performance and probably, arguably, one of the most fascinating, vulnerable and open conversations we've ever had with a current elite athlete.

1:24:43I'd love you to leave a comment. I would love you to tell us what you made of this conversation. I'd love you to reach out on social media to Liam and leave a comment there because although he told us that he doesn't use it very much, he does still go on there sometimes. And I think it'd be great for him to see what people think of this chat. Don't forget to hit subscribe. Don't forget to share it with someone that you think might be interested. We've got our whole back catalogue of amazing Formula 1 guests that you can check out as well. So hit like, hit subscribe, and we'll see you again for another episode of High Performance.

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