Luke Donald: The mastermind behind Europe’s Ryder Cup triumph with Paul McGinley and Sam Torrance (E216)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance App. and use your exclusive code HPAPP. That's H-P-A-P-P. And actually, we've got some exclusive content from this episode where our guests discuss the legendary Tiger Woods. You can hear that only on the High Performance app. Download it now. Hi there. You're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that unlocks the minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jay Comfrey, and alongside Professor Damien Hughes, we learn from the stories, successes and struggles of our guests, allowing us all to explore, be challenged and to grow.

1:06Here's what's coming up today. As a captain, your role is to try and create that culture, that environment for them to succeed. You know, we just need them to play to their ability. You know, we don't need to outperform their ability or anything. They play to their ability, they're more than good enough to win. we all talked about our experiences and and how amazing those experiences are in Riley Cups they outperform anything we do as an individual because we get to share it with those people you have the power of 60 ,000 people in the palms of your hands and when you're standing at first tee and rather than thinking oh my god you know get the tee in the ground I hope I don't miss it I hope I don't sky it or block it just think when it goes quiet this place is gonna rock if I rip it down the middle of the fairway.

1:53And the crowd just go ballistic. They want a reason to scream. Beat the guy that's in front of you. The guy that's standing on the first deal looking at you. Show no fear. Look him in the eye. Shake his hand. Say good luck. Then beat him. So those are three men who are Ryder Cup captains. Sam Torrance, whose career has been defined by this competition. Paul McGinley, who's a previous guest on High Performance and delivered one of the most compelling episodes and Luke Donald, the current captain who will lead Europe into the Ryder Cup against the United States this year. And the Ryder Cup is fascinating.

2:31Remember, golf's an individual sport where you're competing alone, where it's all about you on the green, on the fairway, delivering when it matters. And suddenly in the Ryder Cup, you're having to compete in a team setting. It's Europe versus America. It's an old rivalry. It's an intense rivalry, the noise, the cat whistles, the boos, the cheers. It's all part of this incredible competition. And you're about to hear why captaining the Ryder Cup is so special. Remember, the Ryder Cup captain is a golfer. They haven't spent their lives bringing people together, getting them to play as one, creating a team culture.

3:03They've been the individual sports person and suddenly their role is very different. So how do you do it? Well, you're going to hear Paul and Sam talking about their past experience, giving some brilliant advice to Luke, the current Ryder Cup captain. And Luke's also going to share the decisions that he's made, the thoughts that he's got, and the plans that he's formulating in his mind to make sure that Europe wins the Ryder Cup against a US team who are heavily fancied and have some amazing players in their ranks. Remember, this conversation isn't about golf. It's about creating a culture. It's about inspiring people.

3:34It's about getting someone to perform under pressure. It's about driving unity in a team and so much more. Listen, thank you for coming to this episode of High Performance. If you have a friend who would benefit from this, whether they're a golf fan or not, please feel free to share the things you're learning from high performance. But let's get straight into it. Here we go. Our Ryder Cup Captains Special as we sit down with Luke Donald, Paul McGinley and Sam Torrance on the High Performance Podcast.

4:13Ask it anything. Seriously. Monday Sidekick. AI you'll love to use. Start a free trial today on Monday.com. Hey, hate to do this. Could we resketch? Our morning hike. I was just about to ask the same. Next week? Yes, it's Duncan Original Blend Time. Staying at home with Duncan? Don't mind if I do. The home with Duncan is where you want to be. This episode is brought to you by Opera Air The first browser with mindfulness at its core Now, most of us spend hours every day online But how often do we pause to take care of ourselves whilst we're doing it? And that's where Opera Air comes in It's a lightweight, fast, secure browser Built not just for productivity, but for your well-being With Opera Air, mindfulness is built right in You'll find free breathing exercises, guided meditations and soundscapes with ambient sounds, lo-fi music and binaural beats, all designed to help you focus, relax and even spark creativity while you browse.

5:19Thank you all very much for joining us for our Ryder Cup Captain Special. Obviously, the podcast is high performance, so I want to start by asking each of you in turn, what is high performance in the context of the Ryder Cup? You want me to start? I think so. Yeah, I mean, high performance is the ability to consistently overperform, I think, time and time again. And I think we've certainly done that as a team in Europe. I don't think on paper often we are the underdogs. We're always the underdogs. The Americans are always very strong. On paper, their world rankings are way better than ours consistently.

5:59But we find a way to win. and I think that is what high performance is really, is finding a way to win even when you're not expected to. Couldn't agree more. I think it's about staying in the moment as well. Never get ahead of yourself. Just concentrate on your match. It's very difficult out there to look ahead and see what everyone else is doing because there's nothing you can do apart from win your own point or you and your partner are singles, it's your point. and just stay there and just dig in and whatever he does, do something better and just keep going to the end. No matter what, you come off that last screen and you've not left one ounce of anything behind you.

6:44Very nice, Sam. What about you, Paul? Yeah, I mean, I think the words high performance are what it's all about. I mean, everything that captains do behind the scenes is about creating high performance. And the job of captains is not like it is in rugby and soccer where you're on the touchline and you're making in-play decisions. It's rare that a captain in a Ryder Cup, very rare. I mean, you didn't do it, Sam, did you? Get involved in giving advice on the course. I don't remember many captains I played under did. There was a couple of instances where I should have done, and one I did, and Bernard Langer told me to do it.

7:18Another one was Fulke and Philip Price playing foursomes. There's times where you feel, is it right? Should you just step in there and say something? And I think in hindsight, yes. 100%. I think all these guys are high performing athletes, aren't they? And they know how to do it individually. And so you got to kind of keep that mindset as well. They know how to perform at a high level. You're just there to kind of observe and then obviously give them information. And if that's how they want to take that information and use it. So it's not just about telling them how to play because they all know how to do that.

7:54but there are instances where you've seen something in a previous match or a match in front of them and you think, well, maybe that will help them give them a little bit of information, they can take it or leave it but I think once Friday comes the morning you're sort of just letting them go you're trying to create that culture and get them in the right frame of mind before Friday morning but after that, let them go play at the end of the day, you sort of adjust, I suppose I haven't gone through it yet but I've been through it as a vice captain. But as a captain, I think you want to just observe a lot and then you obviously make adaptations along the way just depending on how the players are looking, how they're feeling, how they're reacting under that pressure, all that kind of stuff.

8:42That's how I saw it too. I didn't get involved. Sam got involved two instances there. I didn't get involved at all. I never gave advice. I didn't see my role as Talon Rory McIlroy, it's a six rather than a five. I left it up to him and empowered him in the caddies and I said that at the start of the week I'm not going to get involved at any stage in any decision making on the golf course you're the best players in the world you've made great decisions to be where you are and my job is to observe watch and as Luke says get prepared for the next roll of the dice and who's going to be playing in the afternoon or who's going to be playing the following morning so there's different ways of doing it I know Seve was really involved didn't he?

9:17Seve really got involved in playing he wanted to hit every show he wanted to hit yeah I was telling Monty, was it the 17th? No, Darren. Darren was 17. And he had to tell him to politely go away. Yeah. Leave me alone. Oh no. It's not San Wedge. You're a Wedge. Pitching Wedge. Yeah, a little Wedge. You hit it like this. I think we've all played and played under very different captains. You know, everyone has different personalities. Bernard Langer was my first captain in 2004. Super detail orientated. You know, I just felt like I knew exactly my role, where I needed to be, what was expected of me, my partnerships, I kind of knew in advance.

9:54Nothing really surprised me, which was good for me. I kind of liked that structure. So I really enjoyed playing under Bernard. But the next two years later, I was with Woozie, completely different character, sort of a little bit more, less structured. Let's go in the bar, have a glass of wine and talk things through, that kind of feel. And it was just very different. we won both of them 18.5 to 9.5 so sometimes it just comes down to you can get the players in a great spot but sometimes it comes down to the talent and how they perform on those days and the wine stuck with you well we're a high performance athlete I love the fact you three are on the red wine and we've got the water so what would you say are the best attributes of the captains that you played under then?

10:39again for me it was communication kind of having that clarity that understanding what the plan was ahead of time. I think most people, especially the 12 that we have now, I think they appreciate that. They want to kind of have a sense of what's going to happen, a sense of who they might be playing with, just so they can prepare. That's important for me, you know, is that constant clarity, that constant communication. I'm interested in how all three of you kind of approached it. You know, as we sit here now, you've both done the job. you're very close to doing it. Did you have a really fixed idea of the kind of captain you both would be?

11:21And are you sitting here now with a very clear idea of the captain you would be? Or is it about getting everyone together and feeling it? Well, I wanted just to look after them individually. Right. And make them feel special. How did you do that? Talk to them. Take them aside. Just be a pal, really. To me, the captain was always daunting. It's kind of like the headmaster in the school. That's why the vice captains are great. You know, so you can go to the vice captain and say, I've got a wee problem here, can you get it fixed? He'll either fix it or take it to the captain. He will definitely fix it.

11:56But the captain was kind of up there, you know, so it's different for me to be that man up there. I was normally the reprobate. It's causing them trouble. But just make sure that we're feeling okay and relaxed. Yeah, I think show them that you care, that they're important and you're doing all the work to give them the best team to succeed. And I don't think you can really change who you are. I mean, I've had to maybe become a little bit more outgoing, extroverted, up my communication. I was someone that kind of stuck in my own lane as a player individually. I think a lot of us do. We're sort of in a very individual sport.

12:39you mix a little bit with players, but you're very single-minded about what you need to do to be successful. Ryder Cups are a little bit different. You want to keep that mindset with the players, but you want to create that belonging that everyone is there and that you care about them. So I think for me, that's been a big thing for me in my captaincy. Can you give us any tangible examples of how you demonstrate that you care for one of your team? I guess it's just constant communication, constant feedback, wanting to hear from them as well, not just thinking that I know everything, just getting their opinions, getting their takes.

13:21I think that's important. There's certain things I won't go into because I think they're sacred to the team of how to create that belonging, that getting guys feeling comfortable around each other, certain things that we've done as a team. Some of these aren't secret. You create dinners, you go out to dinners and you just get to know them. Even my wife, Diane, plays an important role. I think talking to the wives, making them feel uncomfortable. The partners, girlfriends, all those. So once we get there on the match week, we already understand each other a little bit more. We're already happy in a team room together.

14:04We're not feeling like the rookies are in one table and the superstars are on another. Everyone's mixing together and involved with each other. So that's kind of my philosophy anyway. I think there was on that, winning a team, you're going to have some guys who are the superstars and are going to be the guys taking the heavy load in terms of playing big matches and a lot of matches and then other guys that are going to come in and play a lesser role in terms of lesser matches. and so there is that natural divide in every team and I was part of the vice captaincy in 2012 in Medina and one of the things that came out of Medina Oli was the captain who was very instinctive so he made his decisions based on his heart and his soul more than analytics or anything else now there's not many people who's as big a heart and a soul as him and you know we were all waiting and sometimes he was waiting till five minutes you know the guys are in play in the morning and he wouldn't put the team for the afternoon in until literally he wouldn't make his call until five minutes before.

15:07So that was causing chaos for the guys. As Luke says, a lot of them are like him, kind of OCD style, structured, and like to know what they're doing. And he got four guys back in the locker room climbing the walls, not knowing whether to tee an off in it or not. And Ollie was, you know, at the 11th hour he'd make his call. So one of the things in the debrief that we found from Medina was the value of maybe, instead of having four vice-captains, one to follow each game and the captain to roam, that we needed a fifth vice-captain to be with the four guys who were not there. So there was a constant stream of communication back rather than somebody having to come off the golf course to go in and say, wait a minute, guys, he still hasn't made his decision.

15:47I'll be back in half an hour, then back out to follow their game again, which is what Thomas Bjorn had to do. So, you know, that's the kind of thing that evolves and, you know, you've got to be careful because communication is so important and you don't want the guys who are not playing to feel second rate. As Alex Ferguson said to me, you know, never give bad news on its own, always give good news with it. You're not playing in the morning, but I did that with Graham McDowell. You're only playing three matches, but I'm going to put you out number one in the singles on Sunday. So, you know, there's a yin and a yang there.

16:17And so, you know, that's what good communication is about. This is interesting though, isn't it? You know, you're a golfer, right? Suddenly you're going to have to employ a load of skills, that the guys have just explained about understanding human beings, communicating, solving problems, stuff that you haven't had to do for your career. So I wonder where kind of fear and doubt and imposter syndrome is sitting for you at the moment, having to do something that you've not done in a long and distinguished career. I mean, I think there's fear in everything that you do in life that's tough, you know, but that's part of it.

16:51You know, I'll be nervous. I was, you know, in practice trip, you know, when I talked to the guys, it's not my natural place. But if I'm prepared, then I can do it and I can send the right message. And I think once you step towards that fear and you go through it, you come think about it 10 minutes later and you're like, it wasn't so bad, it's fine. So yeah, I think there's fear in everything that you do. But I've tried to step back a little bit too and enjoy the journey as much as possible. Because again, a lot of the past captains have told me that. It goes quite quickly. It's high pressure.

17:27Monday to Thursday is just extraordinary. It's gone like that. Yeah, and there's a lot going on. It's a very busy week, the Rally Cup. As a player, even, it's a long week. There's a lot going on. There's dinners, there's gala dinners, there's opening ceremonies, there's all kinds of videos and fun things for the team. There's a lot. Certainly the last couple of weeks, I feel like I wake up an hour or two before I should be waking up because my brain has got all these thoughts and all these things that I'm trying to figure out and plan. I write notes down a lot. I always have a notebook. I write things down.

18:06I put things in my phone. I think that's just the way I am. Not every captain would be like that, but I like to listen and learn from the people that came before me. Well, that's great, Luke. That's exactly where your job is. And a lot of it is just listening to your players, to your team, what they're saying, what they're doing, how's he feeling. And it's so instinctive. You'll fly through it. The skill sets of the vice captains is important too. You know, where you're weak, you put somebody in strong. I mean, I had Sam as a vice captain because, you know, he's got this effusive energy that, you know, was going to radiate through the room and it was really important, you know, to have that.

18:49I wanted a vibe, you know, so I made sure that I had vice captains who were going to have a vibe about them. That's, you know, that's really important. So Luke was saying there about him being structured, I'm the opposite, I'm really unstructured. So I had to force myself to write things and take a notebook, as he says, and write things down on my phone. And I mean, you learn that, you know, you learn that. And it makes you grow as a person, you know. It certainly made me do, I'm sure you'd feel the same, Sam. You know, you do, you'll come out the other side of this as a more rounded person. It's such an honor to be a radio call captain.

19:21Yeah, I was pretty anxious when I first got the call to be it. Did you see it coming? Can I do this? Were you expecting the call? Well, I obviously applied to try and be the captain, so it was a nice surprise when it happened. But, yeah, you always question yourself, can I do this? I'm 45, am I ready? What does it entail? But you just take every day as it comes, and you just keep moving forward. And I think I've certainly learned a lot over the last 13, 14 months that I've been in this position. So it's been learning that I can do it, I think. Learning that my players are behind me, I think, and I'm behind them.

20:04So I think that's really the most important thing. What's the application process like to apply for the job of captain? I've probably changed over the years. For me, it was like five people on a committee and you're pretty much like a job interview. Is it? Yeah. It has evolved a lot. Ken Schofield came to Mark James and I said, you two are the next two captains. Is that what happened? Take your pick. Really? And I just won the French Open in 98. And I said to Jesse, I think I can actually make a team. So he took Brookline. So good move, Sam. Well done. Give him the away one. That was the short move.

20:43first tick in the box as a captain. Yeah, captain at home. All three of us have done it at home. It's a hell of a lot easier than doing it away. Is it? I don't know. I wouldn't have thought so. It's more enjoyable probably. I find it easier to play away than at home. Yeah, I know. I remember you telling me that. Because? Well, the crowd really annoyed you. Well, that's why I mean. Well, they'd get you out. Get you out first. You know, all that. It's great. The atmosphere is wild. But, when you're underdogs and they're trying to they're a little bit sometimes can be a little bit unkind and it just makes you madder and just want to play better and you know there's less expectation from here abroad but we liked it you know we liked it a lot I thought so can we go back to the application process because I'm interested in what kind of questions are they asking you then when and what answers are you giving yeah what kind of captain would you be you know what do you think we need to change from whistling straights the result yeah let's recreate the process then it wasn't that fun Luke what kind of captain would you be?

21:53well a winning captain you know I've played on four teams and won every one so I think I know a little bit of thing about winning and I can't even remember what I said in that thing but you mentioned winning I mentioned winning I think we came off our worst loss in a long time whistling straights and needed we've always had a pretty good template of success and stuff that we've done well but that year we just didn't perform um the players didn't really show up you know and i think we needed to to do some changes so you know for me it was um enacting a different qualification system it was bringing back a um a new match play event the hero cup that we did.

22:38And some of that stuff really had an impact on some of the picks that I made. It really did. And it was really worthwhile. And I hope it continues for years to come because we don't have many match play events. So you don't really see how these guys perform as a team and how they bond and how they connect with each other. And under those circumstances, when you're playing for a teammate, there's a little bit more pressure on the line than just playing for yourself. So you get to really see how they react in those situations. And yeah, the qualification system, tweaking that was important. We want our strongest players and we want some informed players and we don't want guys that have played really well like in February or March and then sort of tails off, but they've just done enough to hang on to those automatic spots.

23:26So again, certain things like that that I put my case over and yeah. So for the uninitiated, there are players that are there on merit and then you get your pick of players as well. Yep. So those players that you've had the choice to select, how have you got the balance right between what makes a good team and who's going to win a game of golf? We'll see in two weeks if I get the balance right, but I hope so. I think we have 12 very strong guys, but it'd be hard to pick six rookies because, again, there's some uncertainty there. You really haven't seen them in that situation and how they've performed.

24:06So you need some experience there, people that you know that you can count on, that you've seen them perform in those high-pressure situations, that they've turned up in those big moments and been able to kind of perform at a very high level. But you need to have rookies as well. I mean, you need to trust that there's going to be a new generation of people, the future. And I was a rookie once. We were all rookies at one point. You know, and my first Ryder Cup, we had five rookies. on our team in 2004. And we still were very successful. So the way you pick those is you're looking at form, but you're also looking at how they performed over the last year.

24:46And certainly my job may be slightly different to some captains, but I've been playing a lot this year and last year because I felt like it was great to be around these guys as much as possible to see how they're playing, see them how they react when I'm playing with them. and just gauging these little things, their mannerisms, their body language, the way they handle these kind of situations, I think you can tell a lot and certainly some of those things went into the decisions that I made when I made my picks. So what are the kind of mannerisms or the little ticks that you're looking for? You just don't want to see them very phased.

25:28You want them to see them quite, that they can handle that situation, I suppose. Some people handled it better than others and some people really struggled, I think. They just didn't perform at a high level because they felt too much pressure to perform in front of me. But again, you're just trying to gauge some of their body language, just the way their games are, the way they play, all these little things, really. and you're just trying to keep a mental note of that for the last 13, 14 months. So now you've both had a couple of glasses of red wine. What did you think of his picks? I think he was in a very luxurious position of having unbelievable choices.

26:15I can't remember a captain being blessed with having so many choices that he couldn't get it wrong. And then it goes down to your point, which is how do you blend the team? And potential partnerships, I think the Hero Cup, who did what in that. Past records on that golf course came into it. And then you got this guy coming up on the rails called Eberg, who was, by all accounts... Sure go. Yeah, yeah. But he's never even played a major, right? Yeah, but Luke's team, Luke's backroom team, have been tracking this guy since he was an amateur. This guy is not something that just came on their radar two months ago and they thought, oh, this guy looks good.

26:49They have scoured every European with a passport in the last two years to get to this point. This is not by chance that Luke has got the team that he has. There's a huge amount of work and research going on behind the team. And that's his statistics team who are doing that. And, you know, he was flagged to you as an amateur, Luke, wasn't he? Absolutely. We've known about him for a year or so. Obviously, he went through the college system just as I did. You know, I'm very good friends still with the college coach that I was under. And he knows all about these guys. And, you know, we've been tracking him.

27:24He's been playing professional tournaments. He played in Dubai at the beginning of the year, was in the top three or four, I think, through two rounds. And just as an amateur, that's pretty impressive. I was a really good amateur, very good college player, probably best college player for a couple of years. And I played some professional events. I didn't nearly do as well as him. So his pedigree is very similar to a Hovland or a Rahm that were in college, what he's achieved. So we knew he was going to be good. We didn't know exactly until he turned professional how he was going to react in that situation, but he took to it pretty quickly.

28:01Very consistent, you know, compete at a high level on the PGA Tour against the best players in the world. And then obviously in the last couple of weeks of qualification, he came over, he showed commitment, that he wanted to try and impress me, impress the team. I mean, the very first time I played with him in Detroit, he was nine under through 16 holes. Again, to go back to just pairing up with some of these guys and seeing how they react, he wasn't unfazed whatsoever. He just took in his stride. It looked first, very first tee shot, the very perfect line, slight draw, 320 yards down the middle.

28:35I mean, not an easy tee shot. And he made golf look very simple. And I think when he needed to step up, he did step up. And he birdied four of his last five holes. You know, immense talent and immense future for this kid. The difference is, you know, you get talent coming out all the time. And we see it in golf and we understand. Somebody comes out, they hit the ball different, they look good. Yeah, that's great. But we've seen loads of those. And only one out of 10 of those that we see that look special kind of really come through. A wise man remember telling me years and years ago, you know, golf is about performing in the allocated time, under pressure, under gun.

29:16So that's the points that Luke is making there. In Dubai, among professionals, he performed. Playing with the Ryder Cup captain, knowing that he was potentially being thought about under pressure, he performed. Coming over under Luke's direction to come and play in Czechoslovakia and then play in Switzerland, knowing that he's part of the conversation, but he needs to do something to make it. That's the allocated time. And again, he performed. So not alone that he have the talent, he now performs under the pressure and the heat. And they're two different things. And when those two blend together, it looks like we got something special.

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37:41The home is unmatched. Nice. You're a natural. The home with Duncan is where you want to be.

37:53Talking of picking players, obviously, you didn't pick him in 2014, did you? Are you going to bring that up? Yeah, I think we should. Let's get to the bottom of this. I think we should. I'm blaming Sam. He was my vice captain. So we've got the captain and the vice-captain not picking the current captain in 2014. I think we should finally get to the bottom of this. Excuse me, who won in 2014? Do we have any boxing gloves under the table? I think he did the right job. I think he did, but I think it's just very interesting. No, you're stirring it up. You're not getting there, Jake, okay? You should be having the two glasses of wine, but not us.

38:27Great, yes, we should all be on the wine. No, but I think it's very interesting how you make these decisions, how you deliver the news, but also how the players take that news. I mean, I don't know, does it still sting now? It's the hardest call to make, isn't it? It is the hardest call. It's the happiest call, per se. A few tough calls, especially one. But, I mean, yeah, I was, you know, when you get that call and you're not, when you're left out, you feel a little bit, you know, lost. You're like, wow. It's so disappointing. You know, two years before, I was playing number one in the singles in Medina and then suddenly, you know, my form did drop.

39:04I mean, I understand that. And I think as a player, you realize that you have the ability to get into the automatic spots. And if you don't, it's out of your hands. And that's a little bit on you as a player. You should always, you always have the ability to control your fate. If you play well enough, you're going to be there. And I certainly, my form had dipped a little bit. I still would have backed myself to be on that team and perform and contribute. But, you know, it was tough. Certainly my game, I'd lost a little bit of confidence in my game. I'd gone through a different swing coach in 2013, then went back to my old coach.

39:42And, you know, there was definitely some things in the professional world that weren't going my way. So they understood that. They were watching me. They saw that. I still, you know, obviously still think I could have... It still hurts. It still hurts. It does hurt because, you know... That's surprising you. There's nothing quite like a Ryder Cup. You want to be a part of it.

40:05We talk about this even, we had a practice trip in Rome just yesterday. And we all talked about our experiences and how amazing those experiences are in Ryder Cups. They outperform anything we do as an individual because we get to share it with those people. And that's what I lost. I lost that ability to be in that team and to share those stories so of course it was disappointing I think you've done a great job with your picks because this year it is different there's only six spots three from the world rankings three from European Tour to make the team and I mean you can pick six players you know are going to make it but it's certain and I think you did a fabulous job in Alice's 6 yes you had a difficult decision I'm sure you're talking about Moronk you know he'd won Marco Simon but so did Heubert he won there as well you just got to understand again I've been in this role for 13-14 months looking at these players looking at stats looking at everything looking at all kinds of things and so every Ryder Cup there's always one or two guys that think they should be there and they deserve to be there and it's very disappointing it's disappointing for me because I've been through that I've been on those the end of those calls where you didn't make the team so I understand it and I have certainly a lot of empathy for those guys and I tried to show that to the guys that didn't make it you know and And, you know, that's, you know, again, part of being a leader and a captain.

41:32You certainly have to make those tough decisions at times. But as Sam said, I'm very happy with the 12 that we have. Is memories of 2014 ring true with yours? I mean, it is about those tough decisions. Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, it was a very tough decision, obviously, for me. Luke, you know, he was the next man in. And it was a tough decision at the end of the day. And I remember, you know, it was the count fall I hated having to make. You know, Luke's first Ryder Cup match, I was his partner. In 2010 and 12 under Monty and Alasaba, where I was a vice-captain, my job was assigned to look after Luke.

42:03And he played brilliant in both of those games, and were number one in the singles and winning that as he started out that comeback on the Sunday to Medina. But, you know, I had Molinari. The stats guys were telling me Molinari was the guy to pick, Francisco Molinari. I didn't feel he had the steel in his game that he subsequently got when he started working with Dave Aldred in the next year or two. going on to become Open champion. And, you know, Lee Westwood was there on the edge as well too. And it came down to Luke and Lee. And I just felt September, Glen Eagles, big heavy golf course, Lee's game would more suited to that challenge.

42:37And then, you know, the big thing was Luke's form had gone off. That was a big problem. I think I stand corrected on this, Luke. But if I remember, I think your best finish from May until the qualification was 40th. So I didn't see a lot of form and I was hoping for form, anything. And I know you were trying hard. you were going through your swing changes at the time. And, you know, I had to make a call at the end and I felt that Lee was going to be more suited to that. Now, it was a tough call to make and it could have gone wrong for me because of all the modern guys, you know, Sergio, you put all our best players in the last couple of decades before Sam's era.

43:13So, you know, you take the great players, the Poulters and you take the Westwoods and you take the Sergios and Montes and Darren and, you know, put all of those players in. And, you know, Luke's winning percentage is 70%, which is superior in all of those. So we had natural partnerships in the team as well, too. But, you know, it was a tough call, but I just didn't think there was enough form there to play the big heavy golf course that it was going to be. And who knows? Maybe it was the wrong call. Maybe it would have won by more having you in. So you've all been part of winning teams in the Ryder Cup.

43:45What would you pinpoint as the difference between winning and losing? A lot of tears. Being in the right place at the right time. People doing things. Paul making that wonderful for it. Last of the benefit to win it for us. And it comes down to so little at the end of the week. I mean, it can be half a point. But that's all about the golf, right? I wonder whether the three of you think a captain actually can win or lose a Ryder Cup. Or whether that's putting too much emphasis and pressure on that role. It's all about the golf. Yeah, it's about the players. It's all about the golf. The captain's in a very strong position that's putting the people out there to play their best game.

44:28It's about creating the platform, as I say. You're not hitting the shots, but you are creating the platform. You're putting the pairings together and you're creating the energy, you're creating the buzz, you're creating the atmosphere in the team room. You're trying to create a platform that is phenomenal and exciting so the players go out and they play to the best of their ability. And I can speak from experience under Sam. He talks about Parnvick going off his game. I went off as my game too. I was sixth in the money list to qualify, 2001 for my first Ryder Cup. 9-11 happened. It's canceled.

44:58I come back 12 months later. And I'm, you know, 40th in the money list and I'm missing more cuts than I'm making and my form is off, but I've got to play because it's the same team in play that qualified. But when I went in, as I say, the effusiveness in that team room, the energy, the vibe, I remember, I mean, it was so innocent in some ways, Sam. I remember, I remember, but you know I got on a high from that and all of a sudden I forgot about my you know my game being moderate and I went out and performed really well culminating in holding a winning putt and I promise you I promise you not because he's saying it here sitting here I've said it so many times I would not have held that putt I wouldn't have been in that mindset to hold a putt without Sam and how he managed me and how he made me feel like I was the most important guy in the team even though I was the guy he was probably worried about one of the most about because I was miles off form No, it wasn't actually.

45:49There was much worse than the new. But I remember team room. I remember team meetings. And this was before your time, Luke. And the team meeting is so different now. You know, everything is so clinical and team rooms and everything. But I remember the team meetings in the evening times were in Sam's bedroom. Sam had a penthouse in the belfry. So we had a situation where we were actually in the bedroom, in the bed. And guys lying on the bed, some on the floor, some on the sofa, Sam holding a meeting. and Suzanne next door drying her hair, blow-drying her hair. That was the team meetings in the Belfry, but it created that sense of congeniality and fun and all in it together.

46:30And, you know, that kind of vibe, certainly from my experience, lifted me and lifted me to a performance level. Were you as that again? That was in 2002. Right, so this is, you've got to find a way somehow 21 years later, actually, haven't you, in this era of social media and mobile phones and to try and recreate that sense of togetherness. Have you thought about that? It's already happening. It's already happening. The practice trip we just did was a huge thing towards that just to get everyone in the same team room, start discussing all that kind of stuff. We've had group chats together, opening up about all kinds of stuff.

47:10And I think, again, for me, as a captain, your role is to try and create that culture that environment for them to succeed. We just need them to play to their ability. We don't need to outperform their ability or anything. They play to their ability. They're more than good enough to win and handle that pressure. You've already headed out then. Is that what you're saying? That practice trip, you've been to the course already? We've been to the course, yeah. And has that been, have previous captains done that? It's actually the first time, I believe, that we've done a practice trip. We've done it.

47:44Yeah. and Belfry Belfry so I'm sure it has happened and it's about trying to relax the players before the full glare of the world's media just get a feel of it yeah get the feel get the 12 guys in the same room together get them feel comfortable some of the rookies getting to know the more established superstar players that you know 2, 3, 4 in the world all that kind of stuff just get them feeling comfortable around each other So again, you're trying to create that energy, that vibe. So how did you do that, Luke? Again, I've always felt like our ability to come together, our unity is the bedrock of a lot of the success we have.

48:25So keeping that individual mindset, but making them feel like they're a team, that they have a great opportunity to do something great together, to create history, to leave a legacy, and to kind of pass on what they do in this Ryder Cup to future generations. I think a lot of the guys want to play Ryder Cups because they're inspired by the people that come before them as well. So it's understanding the history and recognizing that and wanting to play your role and try and create your own history. Nice. To answer, you're just thinking again too as well the role of the captain compared to the players and absolutely not.

49:05It is about the players as Sam says but also the captain makes big decisions tactically that can determine the outcome. And I'm thinking of Medina in 2012 and how we put out the team singles, four points behind. We knew we had to get momentum. We knew we had to put our strength at the top and we knew we had to try to eat into that lead. The worst thing we could do was lose, do the first three matches and fall further behind. So what we do is we tactically put out the team. We put out Luke, who was a Chicago boy, out number one, big heart. That's the kind of guy you play number one. I think we put Poulter too, who'd just done his heroics on a Saturday.

49:44I think it was Rory three. I think it was then Justin four and maybe Paul Laurie, who played so well in 99 in Brookline, away from home. And we knew that he had a guy with a big heart to play in that role. And then we won. I think we won all those five points. So now we're one point ahead. Now the guys in the bottom are, in America, are thinking, oh my God, I thought we were going to win this easily. We were walking the park. We've lost our lead. and Tiger Woods was the best player in the world that year, 2012, and they put him out number 12. You know, Tiger should have been number one and they wouldn't make that mistake now.

50:16I think America have moved on a lot. They've had the task force and they've learned a lot of lessons and I can't see Zach making that mistake because certainly Steve Stricker didn't. And, you know, they're the kind of things where the captain does have a role, but absolutely, it's absolutely, you know, captains don't win the ride of cups, but they can help create that platform. So how much scenario planning are you doing then Luke for moments like that of if we're four down how am I going to react if I'm two up? I mean I already have a pretty decent plan of what I expect some of the groupings to be on Friday again that can change we still have a couple of weeks to go but I think for Friday again I think what you really want to do is get all the 12 guys out on the course You want to show faith in all of them, that you're 12 strong, that you trust in them.

51:11And you kind of have a good plan in Friday. Obviously, through Friday, you observe the players and you see how they're playing. And sometimes you have to make adjustments for Saturday because of that. So it becomes a little bit, that's when the decision making really starts hitting in. I think on Friday afternoon is what I imagine. Certainly what I experienced a little bit as a vice captain. but I think that Friday I have a reasonable idea of some of the pairings that I'm already going to have. Do you still get to pick fours and fours first, four ball first? Yes. I'm not asking you to give that away.

51:46I'm not sure if that's public knowledge yet. No, but you do pick whether it's fours and fours or four ball first. Yeah, home captain noise. Excellent, yeah. We get the ability to set up the golf course in a way that we feel like will favor our players. Again, we have guys that are looking in-depthly into all the statistics. What are we good at? Are we better at driving than them? Where are we weaker than them? Can we take away their advantage? Can we help with our advantage? Again, the statistics are small either way, but we know little bits here and there can make a big difference. All these little things that you look at leading up to the matches, again, just try and tip the scales in your favor a little bit.

52:30Yeah, yeah. And for a few of those players, it'll be their very first experience, right, of playing in this white hot heat of the Ryder Cup. You've got four rookies in your setup. You could all sit here and say, oh, yeah, yeah, the rivalry's intense. But I think better than that for people listening to this is an example of when you've been in a moment where you've really felt that rivalry. If I was to ask each of you to tell us a story or a moment that springs to mind when you really felt that Europe-USA rivalry, where does your brain take you to? It's just always there. Every single shot? Yeah, it's Europe against America from Friday morning to Sunday night.

53:13They had the best team win. It doesn't really change. I think we're all very cognizant of the history and what's gone before and why there is that passion. There is a big rivalry, you know, from Seve and instances in the past. Oh, Seve. You know, it's just, it's sport and you want to win. It's just an amazing feeling, the Ryder Cup. It doesn't, you don't get that feeling. It's goosebumps. I mean, it's just unbelievable. It is unbelievable. France, the first day in France was just, you know, when they started that. The clap. That was just incredible. I mean, goosebumps. bumps. So can I jump in there then, Sam, and ask, how do you control the emotion to be able to go out and play effectively without it overwhelming you?

54:01Stay in the moment and don't get ahead of yourself and don't even think about getting involved with the crowd. You're doing a job out there and when you watch a player win a major, they'll get excited. We'll be excited with an all-along part, but there's still three holes to go, the one ahead. But in the Ryder Cup, just win the hole and just go to the next. Don't matter. Don't run a bit mad. Just try and stay in that same mode the whole day without getting yourself put out of place. What about you, Paul? You nodded. I have a slightly different view than that because I remember, Sam, I don't know if you remember this in that meeting in your bedroom.

54:41You're not going to tell that one. About Suzanne, you mean? I remember it was a Tuesday or Wednesday and at the end of the meeting, it weren't very long meetings, they were 10, 15 minutes long. And at the end of the meeting, you said, is anybody anything to say before we wrap up here? It was the Monday or the Tuesday, we'd only got there, one of our first meetings. And Parnovic said, yeah, I've got something to say. I thought Parnovic gave some great insights. I thought he was off his game. He said two very, very relevant things that I took a lot out of. And the first one was, he said, I just want to say to the rookies playing at home, there's going to be a big energy coming from the crowd.

55:23And it's up to you as a player to decide what you're going to do with that energy. You can take it and ride it like a surf and you can get engaged with the crowd, or you can do as Sam says and disconnect and just play. He said, neither one is right, neither one is wrong. You as a player have to decide which one is best for you. And I remember then Darren Clark talking to me about what he used to do would look into the crowd and just smile. And just by the body language of smiling, it raised the decibels again more. and I certainly use that during the week. I remember very much engaging with the crowd when I hold the putt, feeling that I was doing it for them and I remember standing on this, you asked me about the moment there, Damien, a minute ago and I remember standing on the 16th hole in the four balls, last game on the golf course with Darren, we were one down playing 16, I'd hit it into about six feet and I had the six footer to go all square.

56:15The matches were level at that stage so depending on how this match finished who would be determined how we were going into the singles. And I remember having this put from six feet. Everybody was finished. Now, this to go all square. And that's a moment where you get scared. And that's a moment where you think, oh my God, I hope I don't miss and I hope I don't let everybody down. And for some reason, something came into my head. If you're believing spirituality or wherever it came from, I don't know. And what came into my head was, this place, remember, this is the only game on the course. It's 15 deep, yeah, 15, 20 deep around the green.

56:46It's going to go ballistic if I hold this. So rather than thinking, oh my God, I hope I don't miss, I felt the opposite. Now I'm playing to my, now my ego was like out of control. It's like, oh my God, if I hold this, this place is going to go nuts. Now I couldn't wait to hold a putt. I hit a great putt in the middle of the hole, crowd went absolutely ballistic, and I totally engaged with the crowd. You know, and I brought that into my captaincy in 14 and had a huge image, a lot of imagery that were important with messages. I want to get to the players, rather than just saying to them, I wanted to portray messages through images.

57:16And I had a picture of Justin Rose that I got superimposed with, smoke coming out of his hands. And the smoke came up the back, yeah. And all the crowd behind. And it was basically, you have the power of 60 ,000 people in the palms of your hands. And when you're standing at first tee, and rather than thinking, oh my God, get the tee in the ground, I hope I don't miss it, I hope I don't sky it or block it. Just think, when it goes quiet, this place is going to rock if I rip it down the middle of the fairway. So it's like a reframing of the moment and being really empowered by the moment rather than afraid of the moment.

57:50And then you smash it down the middle and the crowd just go ballistic. They want a reason to scream. I don't mind the crowd going ballistic. You don't want to go ballistic. Well, everybody's different. Some people want to ride the wave and some people want to be calm, like Sam obviously was, like Langer certainly was, like Luke probably was. And then somebody like Sergio. I mean, look at Sergio. How good did Sergio put in Ryder Cups compared to majors and other events? Why? Because he was empowered. He was part of the team. It's interesting, isn't it, getting this balance? Because you're very calm and controlled and you look very relaxed at the moment.

58:25But there is also this thing of getting people in the moment, isn't there as well? But without being so much in the moment that it kind of impairs their golf rather than improves it. I mean, it's a high-pressure situation. I think a lot of these golfers are used to that. But the Ryder Cup is a different level. it's again when you're playing for your teammates there's more pressure when you're playing for your country um you know all these kind of real intrinsic motivators that are real and what makes the Ryder Cup so special but I think it always again you want to again be on the front foot always you know and if you feel like you're on the back foot and you feel like you're doubting yourself just reframe your mindset as Paul says you know turn into something like a challenge, you know, like, bring it on, I've got this, you know, look at the crowd, let's make the crowd smile, you know, all that, those kind of little keys that I would certainly have used as an individual level, you know, in high pressure situations, I certainly had to rely on those in Ryder Cups.

59:27And, you know, even as calm as I am on a golf course, Ryder Cups brought out some passion in me too, I would bite my lip and fist pump. And I just nothing quite like match play, I think it's such a different mindset. I was never one of the longer players, so I was always hitting into first, into greens. I love the ability to put pressure on people. I love the ability to turn a hole around when it looked like I was going to lose. I'd chip one in, they had three putt. And that psychology of match play is really, really fun for me. Again, that's maybe why I've been quite good at match play over the years.

1:00:04I don't know, but I just love that mentality. just to say the roar that he's talking about not only does it lift the crowd around the green every other player on the team knows that was a European roar that's definitely European or if it's a wee all the Americans just hold up so that's important too and reverse when you're running away from home exactly you want it quiet we've got a few quick fire questions especially for you as the current captain what are the three non-negotiable behaviours as the Ryder Cup captain that you want to see or that you want to instill in the team? For me, it would be consistency, communication, fun.

1:00:49When you look at Team USA, what scares you most and why? I'm scared that they beat us pretty badly two years ago. They've certainly begun to understand that becoming a close-knit team is important. So, yeah, we're up against it. They're a very strong team. We have a big mountain to climb and we're certainly on the floor from two years ago. We understand that. We're certainly underdogs, but I think we understand that we still have a good opportunity to get that cut back. What will be your final message to the players on that first morning? First morning? Again, I think Paul just said it. But, you know, be yourself.

1:01:35We're hurting from whistling straights. Let's be the hunter, start fast, and get that early lead. Let's put pressure on the Americans early and see how they react. What one person has had the biggest impact on the type of captain that you're going to be? I mean, to say your missus quickly.

1:02:01My wife is obviously a great support, but I've tried to learn from all of them, to be honest. I think the most similar captain that I served under was Bernard Langer. Again, I love that detail. I love that stuff, but I've talked to a lot of them. I've talked to Paul a lot. I've talked to Padre. I've talked to Thomas Bjorn. I've talked to Jose Maria. So, I mean, it goes on and on. You just try and take little bits. I've learned a few things in the last hour that we've been talking. So, you know, those things have gone in the head for what will happen in that team room in a couple of weeks. Very good.

1:02:36And this is the final question, and it is to all three of you. We'll start with you, Paul, and work around. We normally ask at the end of these conversations, one golden rule to living a high-performance life. But today the question is, your one golden rule to winning the Ryder Cup? The golden rule is to create an environment for players to go out unburdened and unshackled and inspired to play as good as they can play. Beat the guy that's in front of you. Guy that's standing on the first deal looking at you. Show no fear, look him in the eye, shake his hand, say good luck. Then be him. Or them.

1:03:14Yeah, I think a clear plan and a great culture. Again, a great environment for them to succeed. Give them purpose. We're all behind you. Good luck. Thanks.

1:03:30Damien. Jake. I really enjoy when you have three people like that, seeing the energy, seeing how the three of them get on, the little sort of relationship between them. Yeah, I love the dynamic where they're sort of giving each other little tips and remembering certain moments that they've shared with each other. I think it's real privilege. It's like being invited into the locker room, isn't it? So are you feeling more confident after that about Europe winning the Ryder Cup? I think Luke's very authentic as a leader you know I think that there's no one size fits all as I think Paul and Sam demonstrated one of them goes on emotion one of them goes on the idea of logic like and Luke said he's just going to be himself he's going to tap into that sense of belonging that Paul was really hot on but actually do it in a calm methodical way so I think if authenticity is the measure I think he's going to be successful.

1:04:22I also like the fact that yet again we're seeing a quiet leader get promoted. You know, we spoke to Joss Butler on the podcast. He's a quiet leader. Gareth Southgate, a quiet leader. Eddie Howe, a quiet leader. I love the fact that we're in an era of sport where it's not just the loudest person in the room that ends up being the person in charge, but actually probably the person that deserves it the most, whether they're loud or quiet. Yeah, there's a really interesting phrase on that. People often put it in binary terms. They say you're either an introvert or an extrovert, But there's a phrase called an ambivert, which means that you're somewhere in the middle, that you get your energy from hanging around with yourself and maybe being a bit more reflective, but you're capable of then going out to a group and engaging with them.

1:05:07And I think Luke's a great example of somebody that's probably an ambivert, if we put it in those terms. He also strikes me as someone who doesn't talk too much, so when he does, you listen. But also, when he does talk, he talks with such clarity, as you said, such authenticity, it feels to me like a leader that the players are going to respect and listen to almost more because he's not someone who's made a career out of being a loud person on the tour. Yeah, and like he said as well, he spent the last 14 months actually going and playing with these guys, watching them in key moments and observing them and talking to them.

1:05:45So there's that phrase that comes up so often with our leaders when they talk about the power of trust. they trust that whatever decision you're going to make they trust the process that you've taken to get to that conclusion and I think the clarity of his message means that that trust is certainly going to be in place and he constantly spoke to me about the last 13, 14, 15 months and it's a great reminder for all of us that we'll tune in to watch the Radar Cup and we'll be like oh yeah Luke's taking charge I imagine he's thought about this for the last few weeks the truth is this is like years in the making and it's another reminder to come to these kinds of moments in life with empathy and understanding and just to get a bit more depth about what's truly involved in this sort of thing.

1:06:29Yeah, and I'll admit I was ignorant about the fact that you have to apply for the job and the process of almost going for a job interview and being clear about this is the type of leader I am, this is how I'll handle certain moments. This is a man that's been preparing for this for all his professional life. I loved it. Thanks, mate. Absolute privilege, that one. Thank you, mate. Well, how about that? What a cool episode. Hey, I'd love to know what you thought of it. Don't forget, you can also watch this on YouTube. Join the tens of millions of people who are watching our content right there. I would love you to also hit subscribe either on your podcast provider or on YouTube.

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1:07:51Hey, what's up, subscribers? Welcome back to the channel. So which variety of Dunkin' at-home coffee is your fave? Original blend, French vanilla, or hazelnut? Drop a comment. What are you... Oh, uh, this is what I do when I'm home alone. Drink Dunkin' Original Blend or pretend you're an influencer? Both. Want a cup? Hey, let's do a taste test for the audience. Okay, how's this? The rich, smooth taste of Dunkin' at home is unmatched. Nice. You're a natural. The home with Duncan is where you want to be.