Mark Clattenburg: From Death Threats to Champions League Final "Referees Aren't Seen As Human" (E360)

0:28Watch it early on the High Performance app. so many people fighting against us if it wasn't for them and they know who they are I wouldn't have been the best referee in the world Imagine getting death threats having your family followed an opening hate mail that's been sent to your house just for doing your job Well that was the reality for this week's guest former referee Mark Clattenberg one of English football's most well respected and successful referees a man who went from a tough council estate upbringing in the North East to taking charge of the FA Cup final Champions League final and Euros final all in the same summer and you would think Damian that when you've had that kind of career this would be an hour's worth of celebratory conversation but it wasn't was it?

1:11No it wasn't and what stood out for me was some of his reflections on his biggest moments like how he believes some at the FA enjoyed seeing him struggle in the FA Cup final or how he dealt with the true strain of being one of the most scrutinised people in football It's great isn't it when someone just takes you inside what goes on in the world I think from my perspective, I think this is a conversation about pressure, obviously. It's about resilience. But I think it's also actually about learning to find happiness after some really dark and difficult days. I loved it when Mark kind of took us onto the football field and talked about refereeing, you know, global, proper global superstars like Ronaldo or Messi.

1:48But he also explained to us why he would tell young people not to become a referee. He shares his true feelings over the David Coote scandal and the small moments that meant the most in his life, like the text from a friend when he really needed it or a hug from his referee boss at the time, Pierluigi Colina. Look, before we dive in, please, if you can hit follow on Apple or Spotify, it helps us so much. It means we can attract more incredible guests to the show and it means that you never miss an episode of High Performance. And talking of great podcasts, Mark's brand new show, Whistleblowers, is out now on all podcast platforms.

2:23Right, let's get to it then and have the most incredible conversation about life as a referee with Mark Clattenburg.

2:35Mark, welcome to High Performance. Thank you very much. People talk often about the toll on a referee, the pressure of being a referee, the scrutiny that referees are under. But I don't think we really still understand referees. So when I talk about the toll, the pressure, the scrutiny, where does your mind take you? Oh, probably the whole journey from the start, from starting off refereeing. Even before that, you know, my childhood, how I got into refereeing, every young person wants to play football, and everybody went, why would you want to be a referee? Because I was a field footballer, simple as, because there's no way I'm going to give up playing football if I was going to be a referee.

3:16But when you get a chance, and people said I was half good at it and I went through the systems fairly quickly. It became a no-brainer that, you know, refereeing was always going to be my life. But it's not just about the 90 minutes that people see you and abuse you when you give a decision against one of their teams. That's not the full aspects about refereeing. And that's probably one of the issues that refereeing, the refereeing family have. They haven't promoted this enough. And that was probably back in my days where the management was quite protective. Now, I think under the new Pigeon World management of Howard Webb, I think it's a bit more open and I think he's more happy for refereeing to come out and try and educate the people because people don't really see you as a human being.

4:07They just see you as a person in a black kit who decides that you think you're cheating, either corrupt or you're just incompetent. And people try and work out which one it is. but we're actually neither. We're actually trying to make the game as best it can be but also try and make every decision correct because that's the most satisfying thing in the world. Well, let's bring this conversation bang up to date then. Last season was the year of social media explanations about referees' decisions. It was also the year of a weekly TV show explaining exactly what had gone on. So there was more explanation of referees than ever before.

4:43Yet at the same time, the police were investigating horrendous abuse of Michael Oliver and his family. Teenagers who were refereeing at grassroots level were asking for body cams because of the amount of abuse they were getting. So what state are we in at the moment when it comes to the conversation around refereeing? Is it as bad or even worse than it's ever been? Well, first of all, the Premier League has a duty of care. That's where it all stems from because what everybody sees at the top level comes all the way and cascades all the way down to the grassroots. So whatever they're seeing at the top level certainly comes down.

5:18I think certainly from the Premier League and what the Premier League and the Pigeon world are trying to do, they're trying to make it as transparent as possible. When I was a referee, what, seven, eight years ago, we were allowed to make a mistake. That mistake was a genuine, maybe a player ran across you, you didn't have a perfect angle, you weren't a player, because you were a human being. But because of the introduction of technology, which is what everybody wanted because they wanted perfection in the game of football, it's actually caused and created this anxiety. There's a lot of anger towards the decisions even more because they see it, and especially when it's an opinion, they still can't accept that opinion of the referee because forget the technology, it's just another person getting another angle to see it.

6:07But it's never the referee, unfortunately. it's always the VAR that's making that judgment call and it's creating this undue pressure. And I don't believe it's healthy for the game. I don't believe it's healthy for the refereeing family. I don't believe it's healthy all the way down to the grassroots because that anger, what they're seeing on a Saturday, which they didn't have 10 years ago because they just accepted the refereeing decision. I remember watching, and I still watch some old football from years and years ago. And the commentators would say, oh that might be a foul it would be moved on now we're watching an ultra hd super slow motion and it's repeated repeated repeated which is just building a huge issue around the game and i think everybody needs to have a hard long look at themselves and work out where we want to go with this game because there's more and more people switching off from this beautiful game that we love look there's no way you can put the technology back in the bag right that's here we We can certainly find a way to make it better.

7:08I think we've got to accept that subjective decisions are human. Technology where we had goal line technology, that was a huge step forward. We could have ball in and out of play. The factual decisions offside. We're not even talking about the millimeter, but it's offside. It's factually offside. Probably we've had lots of goals over the last 20 years that have been given incorrectly. indirectly when we look at technology because what I see isn't always what the actual decision is so all of this when it comes to factual decision I'm all for but we can't have two three minutes still talking about is it a foul or not just leave that the referee and allow the referee to referee again and have that enjoyment he knows what that feeling's like on the field not a guy sitting in an office in London so do they need to change the way that VAR is it's utilised they've got the technology so what would be your dream then if you were watching a game next season what would be your dream use of VAR in a subjective decision?

8:11Just all factual decisions you know the offside is quite easy now and it's getting quicker with it automated offside all out of play all over the line goal or not and if it's a foul if a referee gives a foul and it's clearly outside the rest just leave to the referee if it's a challenge let the referee deal with it because it's part and parcel of the game and we're losing that element of the beauty of when a game was played. And I actually enjoy watching the FA Cup, you know, and it was bizarre. They actually, the FA Cup was like a breath of fresh air. We even saw in the final, when we did have VAR, it was still really, Crystal Palace won the final.

8:46Man City will say that Henderson should have been sent off and that. But that's where the beauty was. Now we're getting so much Liverpool, Manchester United, all, you know, all the top clubs are complaining week in, week out, and you've cost us points, you're affecting a chance to qualify for the Champions League. But there's huge sums of money and that's where we've got a lot of American owners now who I think over 50 % of the Premier League owners are American and they're starting to bring in a lot of the legal actions. So I'm not sure it'll ever get to that level where they would want to try and sue the PGM world for a decision that's cost their team.

9:24But there will be chances in the future because that's where the world's going now.

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11:07In the centre of this swirl of millions of pounds, millions of eyeballs, huge pressure, high stakes, global viewership, is one single person, a human being. Yeah. Would you take us inside the mind of that man in the middle in those controversial moments, the true toll on the human being? Because maybe the only way in the short term that we can change this narrative is to remind people that referees are human beings. Yeah, the pressures are more now. If we go back to when I was a referee, it was still huge. And it was less when I first started. The pressure when I started in 2004 was a lot less because I was a young referee, allowed to make mistakes and everybody accepted it.

11:50Later on, when I became a more senior referee within the group, and an international referee refereeing at the highest level, then the scrutiny becomes even more because you're not allowed to make a mistake. And there was a time when I refereed a match and it was Stoke Man United. And this fixture was always one that referees dreaded. Not because of the people, it was just a very difficult fixture. Stoke was always a difficult ground to go to. It was always cold, but it was always a difficult ground with a crowd and Manchester night when they came into town they always came in the droves because it's such a short distance so it built up always a difficult fixture and when you get that game on a Monday you're thinking oh and then trying to prepare yourself mentally into the game on a Saturday I remember coming off and thinking I'd done a good job and the Manchester manager didn't think so he thought I'd missed a penalty and it played about in my head even though I was a senior referee and I didn't listen to the radio on the way back up home but all that I could think about was this decision people didn't realise when you've come off a game everybody thinks you just pack up you pack your bag and you go home you don't you're mentally playing the game again trying to find certainly if you've made an incorrect decision it's even worse but if you've got a decision that you're not clear on it's playing about in your mind because referees didn't want to make mistakes.

13:23I certainly didn't want to make a mistake. What was playing on your mind? Was it getting the decision wrong? Or was it having to face the music from the refereeing body? Or was it the criticism and the scrutiny and the ridicule of the fans? What was the fear? I think if you put them three things into categories, the refereeing body was the least of your worries. It was the pressures of social media and pressures of the media. Media was probably the second part because social media became so big and the media knew they had a duty of care to protect your mental state. Social media doesn't. The abuse, the death threats I've had for years, it's getting more and more publicized now.

14:06But I used to just dismiss it. I used to think if somebody wants to write that on social media, they're not going to do it. So I used to dismiss it a lot. But you knew. If you're a referee to match, no disrespect to the smaller teams, the smaller teams I mean everybody has a right to play in the Premier League but I'm talking about crowd, world dominance if you talk about Manchester United they've got fans all around the world if you talk about Southampton for example they haven't got as many the fan base around and you know that Southampton will probably be the last match on match of the day which doesn't have any scrutiny they'll show one minute of action and it's quite dismissed but if you're refereeing the big sides then the scrutiny is so big you know that if you make a call that is highly subjective then you know that there's things that are going to come at you and your family is just complete insults and i used to have to tell the postman i used to say to him at one point my friend please if my name's on a letter and it's only my name don't think you're doing me a service by posting it through me door because it'll not be correct stuff and he realised that people used to just put things in the Royal Mail but Royal Mail used to think they were doing us a favour by delivering me posts so the address would just be and there would be letters in there Mark Clattenburg yeah yeah and it would get to your house yeah and it would just be hate mail it would just be what they want to do to me wife what they want to do to me children what they just honestly yeah it was it was all over decisions and they don't forget it so you go and referee that team again and you referee him again and you referee him again and nobody thinks about the consequence of that.

15:49Our pressure when we're dealing with that, if we're going back to referee that same club again, our mental strength is to park it, move away from it and try and get the next ones right because we can't control what we did in the past, but they don't forget the past. Social media doesn't forget the past. Were you able to park it? Not always, but you had to at certain times. There's times where it affected you more. That one. the Auburn-McKell situation. That affected me a lot. It affected my family a lot. And I think that was the closest I've ever been to A, suicide, and B, finishing. The first part, I had a strong family around, so I survived the first bit.

16:29The second bit was harder to walk away from the game because I had a mortgage to pay. It's not just about refereeing. I've actually got to protect my family because they put up with a lot anyways as me being a referee, that I've got to protect them financially So there was that point in my career in 2012 where I didn't want to referee anymore, but I had to because I needed to pay the mortgage. Are you happy to talk a bit about that? Yeah, of course. When did you first realize that an allegation of racist abuse had been made? I know exactly the point. Heathrow Airport, Terminal 5. I remember my mobile phone.

17:06Everybody gets the notifications and it was a Sky Sports notification. Mark Lampenberg being accused of racial discrimination against two Chelsea players and I was just like what and then the phone call started through Mike Riley through the board who was the head of refereeing at the time and then I was about to board a flight to Newcastle I had to make a phone call to the person at Newcastle airport to try and get us through because it was media camp waiting for us outside of the arrivals in Newcastle so lucky enough I could avoid it but that was the moment and I remember sitting on the flight I didn't realise what was going to happen and I remember because we're boarding quickly on the flight I'm sitting and my phone was off so my phone's turned off so I don't know what's going to be happening in the next 30 minutes but I remember some boy sitting next to us and I'll never forget it he turned around and he says you've had a bad day today and it just because he must have read the message you know and it was just like you know and you're thinking oh my word what if he's reading it now what's this going to happen what's going to what's going to happen and the minute i landed claire she had a newborn she was only six months old and claire's hysterical there's press outside the house um flashing and it was midnight i went 11 o 'clock something i had at night and they didn't know what to do because there was no safety network in place to protect we lived in a house that can be exposed Because it was interesting.

18:38Bruce Buck, who was the chairman of Chelsea, after the allegations were finished, he thought I lived in a gated community. This is the mentality of people in football. They think referees live in mansions and have private security. We're actually not. We're the opposite. We're just working class people trying to earn a living. And that side of it made us realize that I really want to be a referee because no referee or no person should be put through there. What was the hardest moment or the lowest moment for you after those allegations were made? Because I remember that time and I was working in the media.

19:18I was working for a sports channel. I remember just thinking, well, he will know if he has or hasn't said something, right? So surely he'll be okay. But from what you're saying, it sounds like that's naive of me to think, oh, you'll be okay because you know you didn't do it. It was the worst 12 hours. Never went to bed. and I was soul-searching the thing because I didn't know what I'd said, that nobody had released what I'd actually, what I'd said. So I'm trying to work out, did I say something, you know, in the heat of the moment, you know, you question yourself, of course. You know, I was refereeing such a high volatile game with some decisions in the game.

19:54I sent off two Chelsea players for the background. Man and I scored a controversial goal. That was the assistant made a mistake, which would have been rectified with VAR. however the game finished 3-2 to Manchester United and I'm searching to myself thinking did I really do it and that was the hardest thing thinking I'd done it you know and it was only when time started to elapse and Chelsea couldn't provide the necessary information that A what I'd said B when it was what time of the minute it was and the more the time went on I was more convinced that if I'd said something to a player, that player would have come and certainly stopped the game and said something and there would have been some altercation.

20:46I'm watching a match back and there was no altercation between any players. Just a normal run-of-the-mill stuff that you would see week in, week out. So the longer it went on, the more I felt that I was innocent. But that was the most difficult bit, knowing that you were innocent but you can't speak and the world's making a lot of stories a lot of um issue like talking about it i remember leaving on the thursday because i couldn't live i couldn't stay in england anymore i had to get the family out the pressure was too big and i remember the pigeon world got us out of a newcastle airport in malaga i put a cap on and people thank god didn't recognize us and there was a couple behind us and they were talking about it because it was front page of the the newspaper and they were talking about it and i think the the woman the man had said to his wife do you think he said it and the woman said no i don't think he said it he's a geordie that probably wouldn't understand his english and i like i was chuckling at myself and i remember going into a bar that later that night and there was another couple in the corner and the it was my friend's bar and i'd left the bar and i got a phone call from the bar owner he says Marty says you don't believe what just happened when you left I says what that couple that was sitting there were watching it on Sky News and said oh I feel sorry for that referee I hope he never said it blah blah blah and the bar owner said you should have asked him five minutes before because he was in the bar and they went no way that wasn't him he looks fat on TV because you know but that was that made us laugh you know these little small things that made us laugh and it helped us through certain points but people said like at the end Chelsea said they were duty bound to report an allegation of racism.

22:33I get that 100%. What I don't get is how it was dealt with and how it could have been dealt with better because there was no protection for the referees. Certainly me as an individual, they didn't care. They just think he's going to be all right. And that was probably the first side of what referees saw. that was probably the hardest thing the referees had to deal with at that time yeah we had little things to deal with referees being accused of swearing that was easily dealt with because if players want players want to play down that route then the player swears at us we'll red card them oh no we're not having that let's let's backtrack that but this was the first big moment of the refereeing world where we're being challenged by one of the big clubs in an allegation that was absolutely unfounded.

23:23You know, even I still receive a lot of rubbish on social media that I'd done it. I was cleared. The facts were so clear. You know, Omer McKell wasn't the person that had heard it, which was the even most bizarre thing. It was Ramirez. I even chuckled to myself. I listened to one of his interviews a week later on Sky and he couldn't speak English. So to understand a Geordie with English and he can't understand English as one point, but Auburn McHale didn't hear it. And that's something that doesn't add up with me. And was there ever an apology? Never apology. They said they didn't want to apologize.

23:59They believed they were duty-bound. But my argument being duty-bound is it took them three weeks to tell me the moment, the minute. Is it first half? Is it second half? Is it late in the game? It took them three weeks to tell me. if they're that adamant I've said something why do you not say it was the 72nd minute it's the 74th minute this should be instant it shouldn't take three weeks and I think that's the anger towards from me towards football the Premier League Chelsea was just it was you know ridiculous in the end that they were allowed to walk away from it with Auburn McHale with an assault on a referee only to receive a three match ban was absolutely disgraceful where if somebody did that at grassroots level, it's sin die.

24:52So we'll go back to what we said before about the Premier League having an example to make. There's a big example where the Premier League didn't act and didn't protect in the right way, which, you know, referees don't feel protected. They're not going to be feeling protected at the grassroots. And did you have a moment where you felt suicidal? Lots of, yeah, the first five, six days. It was really difficult. There was times where people didn't believe us. You know, that first few days, everybody was thinking I was guilty. People were saying, if I had said it, then I should be sacked. Yeah. 100%.

25:28Why do you think that suicide might be the answer in that moment? Because if I didn't have a way out and I couldn't referee anymore, what can I do? If I'm a racist and I'm not going to get a job in normal life, I'm not going to get a job in sport my life's finished so the consequences of something of my actions left us in a position where I'm thinking I've got nowhere to go I didn't have somebody to talk to on a daily basis yes, my family was there but they don't know what really goes on they don't really know what happens inside the world of football I think it's ridiculous it should be dropped it doesn't work like that in sport and in the media everything every day was building up and there was like for example it was a black lives matter or something got involved and the police got involved and all these processes went through and i'm thinking it was like a circus but it doesn't help me because every day my life's been played in the in the public eye and were you offered some sort of mental health support no none that's something that i think the page and well have learned i was left it was only in the end when I was about to be found not guilty there was a person from media came to the house to aid the protectors with the media that night when it was going to be announced that I was going to be found not guilty or there was no case to answer and then the next day to work around some media obligations to handle the final bits I could try and make a comeback.

27:06And when you were at that those low points in those first five or six days, what stopped you from doing it? What kept you here? My daughter. My child, because she didn't deserve, she was only little, I brought into the world. And it was my responsibility to look after her. It was times when that was the one thing that was fighting us. If I was on my own, and I was single and I was on my own, it was the easiest decision in the world. But when you've got responsibilities, it made us fight more. And, you know, I wasn't eating, I wasn't sleeping, and it builds. You know, it's not just a snap moment.

27:44It's a catalog of lots of different things, not eating, you know, probably drinking alcohol a little bit more than you would normally to try and raise the pressures. But a lot of it was having an adverse effect of, you know, depression. Alcohol is a depressant. Yeah, and I've known that later in life. but you've got that, you know, you've got that, all of the recipes going in and then you're trying to wake yourself up on a morning without any purpose, you know, because you're thinking all today you're going to do is take phone calls, dealing with the media. And, you know, there's certainly some learning points in that because it never happened before.

28:22But if I wasn't so strong-willed to come through with the family, I'm not sure I would have been here today. Look, thank you for sharing it. And actually, even 13 years later, it's clear how much it still sits with you emotionally, right? Yeah, of course. Some of it's still anger, of course, but you've got a partner to move on. Life's too short. I've gone into different chapters of my life now. That's a chapter that I had, but a chapter that certainly I didn't expect as a professional referee to be ever dealt with. And we've seen some referees having to deal with other situations, but personal stuff.

28:57But this is what shows referees, are human beings, but they've also got private lives. They've got families. It's difficult. And, you know, we've seen with Dave Koot over the last six months, the pressures of his life. And, you know, we knew, certainly when I was a referee, I knew certain parts of his personal life, but you don't know what's going on in their lives. And some people take choices. some people take decisions one of the hardest bit i've had to deal with and i'm sure david david's had the same problem david could is is your friendships i've lost so many friends and people calling us arrogant because i haven't done something and it's because i was under so much scrutiny for example drinking a beer in a public place in a way even jumping singing like you would as a human, like a normal human, having a good time, you can't do that.

30:00And it affects you because everybody thinks you're boring. Everybody thinks you're arrogant because you won't talk to them. But we've seen with David Coote, a video that was produced by a friend or a so-called friend. Or a friendship. Yeah, so-called friend. But that's the scrutiny we've had to go through. And we saw Bobby Madley, for example, with his ex-wife videos video has been produced and it's a hard world that they live in because yes they've got they've got standards that they must reach and they've got to reach them on the field of play but they're also human beings they're going to make mistakes and a lot of them are mistakes because of pressures because of the scrutiny that they're under is referees because David Coote isn't David Coote, the person, it's David Coote, the referee.

30:52David Coote's been charged with an aggravated breach of FA regulations. What's your reaction to that? I can understand because in the words that he used on the video, he mentioned his nationality, Jürgen Klopp's nationality in German. And probably that's where the breach came in. Do I agree with it? No, I don't. I think it was said, it was in the heat, it was done between to consent his friend or his partner or whatever it was, was between two people. He was probably saying his opinion. Could he have said it in a better way? Should it have been videoed? This is probably now the way society is, that everything you say now has been documented, which is unfortunately the sad state that we're in.

31:40But I don't believe that would have ended his career. I still don't believe, even though he'd been charged, that wouldn't have ended his career. I firmly believe that. I think what's ended his career is the second piece of information that came out as he's drug taken. I think that was the end of the career, especially when it was on UEFA duty in a major tournament when the videos were coming out. That was probably the end of his career because it becomes difficult to promote younger referees into the game knowing that you're allowing that type of behaviour. I think things that I said, I'm sure managers say things about referees but it stays within their circles unfortunately it's got out of his circle and he's got to pay the penalty but do you honestly think without the additional video of taking drugs that he his career could have carried on yeah definitely he couldn't have gone to Anfield and refed games and things in the future could he I think come on I think we've all we've all said stuff mine just hasn't been released is it an integrity thing we'll go back to that referees have to have a a high level of integrity but I'm not sure that would have ended his career.

32:48I think it would have been certainly a suspension or a discipline. Why would you say that? Ending a referee's career? Better mind he's put that much into it. A slip of a tongue to a person who's decided to put it out later on, a video of him doing something. I think it's sad. Honestly, I think it's sad today's society that something that's happened in a friendship or a relationship is now brought to their advantage and shown in the media years later that can affect somebody's career. Everybody's done things in the past, but now we've got this technology. And that's something I'm really strong on.

33:30Again, today, you're on a train and somebody's taking a video, but we haven't got the laws yet that protect an individual. You go to another country in the United, the United Iberma, it's against the law. You have the protection. So, you know, that wouldn't happen anywhere else in the world, but we allow it in England still because our laws are outdated and we're now in a world of technology and social media and we need to keep up with them laws because we need to protect the person as well. Not just David Coote, I'm talking about people in general, but David Coote's made mistakes and, you know, he'll be in a dark place now, a difficult place now because his career has ended and he's got no chance to be back into football and world, what does he do?

34:17We also seem to want to end people as well, don't we now? You know, like, we want people to be punished for the mistakes. It's no longer enough for someone to make a mistake and go, do you know what, it was wrong, I said something stupid, it was incorrect. There now feels like there has to be never-ending punishment. You have to get cancelled. You're non-platformed for the rest of your life. Yeah, and I think that's a big difference. Now, I think not just in refereeing, I think the whole, even TV, media, everything now, you're right, has a consequence. Everybody wants the person to be sacked. I think what people don't understand is when you're restricting who you truly are, then the pressure comes out in other ways.

34:57You know, you've just said you were drinking too much by your own admission. You know, David Coote, it was other pressures and he released those in other ways. It still feels like there's so far to go until we treat referees like human beings. Like when I saw the David Coote story come out, maybe because of these kinds of conversations, I looked at it and I thought, something's going on there. And I hope someone puts his arm around that guy because you don't do those things and say those things and act in that way unless there's some trauma behind the scenes. And all I saw was ridicule, criticism.

35:29Everyone couldn't wait to have an opinion. So I feel like we have not learned our lesson from people that have walked in David Coote and your shoes previously. people say that refereeing have a high level that they're much the most he had to and the most respect and i think one of the hardest things is the way the world is we'll have banner like banner i mean we're in a pub with your mates and yeah what's he like the referee i've said it millions of times he's hard he's whatever it's what we do have a beer you'd have a laugh and that's where it used to end and there was no mobile phones no cameras nothing so it was just what we call people having an opinion the problem is now is people are taking videos of it or using it against them in in later in life and what Dave Koot did with for example Jurgen Klopp he's got an opinion about Jurgen Klopp I've got an opinion about Jurgen Klopp everybody will have opinion about Jurgen Klopp is Jurgen Klopp a great manager one million percent is a person people will have that perception same as me he just expressed it but because he's a referee people think that because he's expressed his opinion that he's going to be biased towards Liverpool or whatever that's absolute garbage he's just made an opinion about a person where certainly David Cootes could have helped himself is went for that help I think we've moved on as an organization from 2012 when i had my issues to lit now i believe that that group body of refereeing has moved so forward in supporting referees mentally physically and there was enough in place to if he had an issue regarding his personal situations then he could have went for help and i think if he'd gone for help i think his career wouldn't have ended i think they would had to support him and make him come through them difficult moments.

37:30And he could have served a suspension, he could have took time out of the game and come back a better person. And I think, you know, footballers, for example, they've taken drugs and they've come back. Refereeing drugs isn't the same as players' drugs because players can use it for enhancement. You know, referees can't use it for enhancement. It's because of the pressures around their lives. And how much does that play on your mind when you are a referee that you know there is no job security. One bad game and you're out of a job. One misstep and you lose your career. One poor decision, you get vilified in the media.

38:09Yeah, I used to make a joke of it at first. I remember coming off, when you're refereeing in the Champions League, you knew if you had a bad game, that was it. You were finished for that season. That was just the way life was. And I remember refereeing a quarterfinal, buying against Juventus. The only decision that I got criticised by the Observer and I deservedly got the mark I got. So that meant I wasn't refereeing any more Champions League games that season. And I remember coming home and my wife goes, how was your game? I went, I haven't done very well. She went, what? It means I can't have that handbag.

38:42And that's the way they saw it. They didn't, I'm thinking, I want another game. She was worried about the cost of it. Thinking it's cost us whatever it was, match fees. so I think the more experienced you got the less that became a problem I didn't feel under pressure that I was going to lose my job it was more on performance the rest of it I knew that I had to I had to have some good friendship around when I went abroad with my friends they protected me a lot took us out of situations and they knew that could cause us a problem so I had a good set of friends but I never felt threatened on my performance.

39:23It was, you know, but when you're a young referee, the pressure's even bigger because when you're a younger referee, in today's society, you can't make mistakes. I went back when I got on in 2004, I probably did make mistakes, but I was allowed to because I was young. The manager says, oh, he's a good young referee, him. So it was okay. It was like a young player coming into the first team. is not going to be perfect. But unfortunately now, we've got this world of perfection and it's not a world that we can live in, unfortunately. Would you want to be a young referee coming through now? Never.

39:59I wouldn't have. People say to me, what's your advice? I would say, don't. I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it. I know the recruitment now in England's higher than it's ever been. I believe that there's probably better systems in place. From when I first started at 16 years old, and the local leagues in the Northeast, you had to come through the Sunday morning. The Sunday morning for any of the viewers is people that have just come out of the pub from the nightclubs on a Saturday night before. It's a game of survival. And people say to me, you should apply the laws of the game. On a Sunday morning, you've got the laws of the game and you've got the survival of the game.

40:42And you've got to find a balance of them both because if you don't, you're not going to come off that pitch alive so you've got to find a at 16 years old somebody used to say to me how do you it's incredible that a 16 year old to an even 18 year old could manage them situations conflict management so these conflict managements probably helped us going forward in me in me working life in me early part of me working life but also when I got into refereeing you know at the top level because people talk about the laws of the game, but you've got a lot of conflict management. You've got the game management.

41:22You've got a lot of other aspects of the game that people don't see. They just think, well, you've got laws of the game. You must apply them. Unfortunately, you haven't just got the laws of the game. You've also got the criterias, what the Premier League won, what the PGM World won, what the game wants, what Sky won, what everybody wants. I remember coming off at 0-0 and Sky are upset because the game's boring nil now. And I'm like, go and speak to the 22 players because, mate, what can I do? They're the ones that are entertaining, not me. In so many ways, I think the discourse around refereeing is a reflection of life.

41:58The criticism we have for each other on social media, the sort of disgusting way in which we talk to each other now. Even politics has gone the same way. You know, it's this way or that way. There's no middle ground. There's no unity. Everyone's shaking fists rather than shaking hands. and the problem is referees have to get through that to get to the top level and I'd love to talk about the top level because we can't talk about high performance without going into the heights that you reached because you don't become one of the most celebrated referees globally by accident I mean there's this incredible seven week period where you refereed the FA Cup final the Champions League final and the final of Euro 2016 physically I'm sure it was demanding but I'm fascinated in how you mentally prepared yourself for a summer that was going to give you so much but was also going to take so much from you yeah if you go into them them three games if we lead up to the FA Cup final was the first one and it was interesting that I actually had the appointment of the Champions League before the FA Cup which was surprising because I'm not sure I would have refereed the FA Cup.

43:08And how does it happen? Do you just get a phone call? Yes, I remember going, I was going down to St. George's Park where we used to meet every Monday. It was a unique situation because as a referee, I set goals at the start of the season. One of my goals was to referee a second leg semifinal. I'd refereed one before. I'd refereed Bayern Munich-Barcelona in 2013, I think it was. Do you write these aims down? How do you? I just remember them. So I'm always mentally preparing. So I knew I'd done one and I thought, I want another semi-final because then I'm building myself up. Because you can't just go, a referee, 30 years old, three Champions League games, can't referee the Champions League final.

43:47Doesn't matter how good a season he has. He needs experience. He needs, also the clubs need to know who he is to respect him. And it makes your life a lot easier. They think you're a good referee. Players, they don't try it on as much. But preparing myself. So when I was heading down to St George's, I took a phone call. So going back to what I was saying, semi-final I'd already refereed a semi-final so I did the first leg it was Atletico Bayern perfect game message after the match from Pielo Ricci which I always wanted congratulations well done thank you very much for a great performance game was perfect from a refereeing point of view yeah there might have been a free kick miss or a handball miss but everybody was happy and Kylian for those that don't know is the legend of all legendary refs and at that time was the head of UEFA refereeing yeah he was the head of UEFA refereeing so when you get a semi-final there's no way you referee a final why because you've already refereed one team before so I get the argument that one team would be upset or he had them in the semi-final of one they've got an unfair advantage in this situation I was quite fortunate that Atletico had won I'd refereed them three times during that course of that Champions League campaign and Madrid never had a bad performance or the results always went their way so it was a bit of win-win situation for me and to not think that you're going to get the final and you get a phone call from Pierluigi Klina and he said to us he called in I had to ring him back because I was on the M1 and I had to pull up onto the off a slip road and then park Were you nervous thinking I know what this is about Well no I thought I was going to because all the media was pointing towards Jonas Eriksson who was a big friend of mine he was a Swedish referee and all the media were pointing towards him he hadn't refereed his semi-final so then he hasn't done a semi-final so when I got a phone call from Pierluigi Klina he said to us he said how's things congratulations on your season I've got a message for you and I says what's your message and he said I want you to come to Milan and Milan was where the venue of the Champions League final was in 2016 and I says oh thank you very much I can't wait I'm looking forward to being fourth official to Jonas and he said sorry I says I'm going to be fourth official to Jonas he said no you're going to be referee I went don't be stupid and he went Mark sorry because he's English like he's joking it's different Italian and he says do you not want to be the referee for the final I said of course I do of course I do he says congratulations and it was like an amazing first call I made to my wife and you know what she said she didn't care about the game she went I've got to worry about what I've got to wear for the final now quite right yeah typical she sounds like a high performer herself she keeps your feet on the ground I was like I'm talking about doing the final here and she's like you're worried about what you're going to wear but that was another fight that's exactly what you need in your life but I remember getting to St George's and I couldn't speak I could only speak to the two assistants and Anthony Tiller and Andre Mariner were going to be the two additionals behind the goal.

46:56So I spoke to them privately because Andre Mariner was on holiday and when they called us, they said, you need to speak to Andre to see if he's going to be on holiday or not. Can he break his holiday? So I spoke to them privately, said, look, I've got the Champions League, I can't speak, it's going to be announced at five o 'clock on Sky. They're going to make the announcement, Sky will pick it up. Are you available? He said, yes, I made a phone call back to UEFA. And we had to have a training session. None of the Premier League referees knew, except the internal one, the ones that I had to inform.

47:24It was the best training session I'd ever had because I was on cloud cuckoo. It was like I was running faster. I was enjoying training for the first time. And when it was announced, I was in my bedroom. I might have come down for dinner and the whole canteen clapped that I'd been given the finals six years after Howard Webb did 2010. So it was great that an English referee was refereeing the Champions League final. and it was great that I was going to be the lead referee for the game. And all of a sudden, the mixed emotions come in. You've got people wanting tickets. You've got all of the media's scrutiny around, are you good enough to referee Champions League and all of this?

48:07So you're having to deal with all the emotions, even though you've been given the task by UEFA. You've still got the negativity around on social media, saying he's not good enough. Did you read that? no but you're privy to it because people show you it's on sometimes the media like to repeat what people are writing but this is where the hardest bit came in was I was then given the FA Cup final after the appointment of the Champions League so the FA Cup was a week before exactly a week before and the preparations for the FA Cup final were as normal the fitness levels everything was right and you've still got the pressures.

48:49You know, strange enough at that time, I don't know if the referees still do, but we don't get time to relax on the evening of the final. We actually have to go to a rally where ex-referees, and there's a speech. So you're actually not getting dinner until sometimes 10 o 'clock at night on the day, on the eve of the FA Cup final. It's not an excuse for performance. I'm just saying that preparation-wise, it's slightly different to a normal game where you'd be relaxing in the hotel. You're actually still halfway across London dealing with some media engagements which could have been avoided, but that's a part of the Football Association's tradition, the either final rally that you had to attend.

49:27But going into the final, which was huge for Crystal Palace and Manchester United, the game didn't play out the way I dreamt it the night before because I used to visualise a lot, especially before big games, the night before a game. so I would never sleep properly but I would play about in my head how I would hope that the game would be played like I used to love fast flowing games love to play advantage I was hoping that these games would be that the FA Cup final would be the same and certainly didn't the first five minutes I don't know if I wanted to be involved I tried to get involved like a player wants to get a touch on the ball I blow my whistle should have played advantage players did stop of course hindsight's a great thing but Crystal Palace fans were upset that I didn't play an advantage early in the match quite rightly so people forget that I cautioned Chris Smolin for the challenge if I'd played an advantage I might not have coached him he did get sent off later on in the game when it was 1-1 they still had big chances unfortunately they didn't win and you know they were always looking but I remember coming up and I didn't want to go like get me medal I'm thinking I'm just going to get dogs abuse so I go up one side which was Crystal Palace fans and they're just giving us dogs abuse I mean, horrible things.

50:42I'm walking up, my head's down. And I know that people from the Football Association would be smiling secretly that I haven't refereed perfectly well for my standards. Do you think so? No, yeah, 100%. Why? Because my wife even told us later on that night what certain people were saying at the dinner table. They were laughing that I hadn't played an advantage and his smoked smile would be off his face. Some of them didn't want you to perform to the highest level because they didn't want you there. I probably only got the FA Cup final because I had the Champions League final. Not names, but what type of people were doing that?

51:18The top people. At the FA? Yeah, the top people. But surely that's their showpiece game. Surely what they want is the referee to demonstrate how amazing he is. They didn't want me to referee in the Champions League final. They didn't want me to referee in the Euros. They didn't want me involved. They wanted their people. Maybe they can trust, I don't know. But we can go back. some steps that's what drove me on we'll talk about that in a second what drove me forward but when I went up one side of the steps I'm getting abuse of Crystal Palace fans gets me medal and then I just get absolute dog's abuse from Man United fans and I get to the bottom and I'm thinking what am I doing what I'm absolutely I was at me lowest I'm thinking in refereeing world not mentally I'm talking about how you feel as an individual when you hate it that much and I'm thinking to myself, I need to analyze myself.

52:13And normally after the finals of celebration with your families, all of your team, I never felt like celebrating. I just wanted to go to bed. And the next day was the Sunday and I remember sitting in Covent Garden and thinking, I wish I'd done that. I wish I'd done that. I wish I'd done that. I was so miserable on the Sunday because I couldn't switch off I was trying to work out why what what went wrong why I could have done better why allowed that why I took why did the pressure get was early in the game when I've been experienced I'm experienced I've refereed at Wembley before it's not my first time I'd refereed the Olympic game final in 2012 there so I wasn't a new stadium and I realized I'm thinking hold on I've only got five days left six days left I'm going to referee the Champions League final so I've gone from soul searching on the Sunday to then on the Monday waking up thinking that's it back to training back preparing remembering that I had to try and switch off what had happened the week before in one of the biggest games in Europe knowing that the world's going to watch not just English and part of the world we've now got the whole world watching and you're thinking please let's just hope that the match goes goes okay I would have to watch it back because I still can't remember what happened in any of the games because in finals, you just never enjoy them.

53:34The pressure's that big. I can't even remember anything that happened in the games. Isn't it mad, though, that you work all your life thinking one day I'll referee a final? You do, and that's your lived experience of sitting there kind of self-attacking yourself in the evening because you felt like you did badly. And we've just spoken for ages about empathy and understanding and care for each other. It almost feels like you were so surrounded by criticism and negativity. You sort of started doing it to yourself. yeah but you're a human being everybody wants praise we don't want negative but with refereeing you're going to get more negative you're very rare get the praise you know even when I played so many great advantages that led to great goals still never really got the praise because I still talk about a missed free kick that you give 69 minutes you know there's so much any one mistake you know Crystal Palace fans they can throw their anger they still throw their anger even when they got the FA Cup final this year I read a lot of stuff anything and hold on anything could have happened from that moment go keep a stop defender stopped i've cautioned chris small and he gets sent off you're one one they're down to 10 players which should be an advantage if you go and win the cup final that decision that i made in the first minute is a positive to you they don't see it as a positive because they lost they're looking for an excuse to blame someone they don't blame alan pardew for a substitution they don't blame a player who didn't make that he didn't backtrack for the way i think the way and run he goal all of these aspects they never blame the only one to blame the easiest person in the world who unfortunately is always the person that is the easiest target is the referee if you're still overpaying for wireless it's time to say yes to saying no at min mobile their favourite word is no.

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57:39Well, you picked yourself up. the presidents and uh infantino was a uefa president at the time and uh he we shook hands and he says i'm looking forward to seeing you at the world cup in me back in my mind i'm thinking i might not be there because i'm thinking about saudi arabia at the time but i didn't tell him that and we got all the medals and everybody was so positive so from the week before negativity there was so much support from uefa and the people around the athletic go derby isn't an easy derby the referee you know it's brutal you know two teams going at each other and there's players on that pitch knowing they're trying to take every little bit of advantage to try and win the game of football that's the way that game was and everybody was satisfied about the way the game was and I came down on the pitch Simeone came to us and he just tapped his chest and he went well done and Zidane came up and said congratulations and I thought both coaches come that's perfect that's how I want to have my refereeing that both managers are satisfied yeah there'll be things in the game that they might not be happy with but overall I didn't affect the results the result was fair the best team won and getting back towards my dressing room and I goes up to my dressing room Bieluigi Cleo the boss of the head of refereeing was waiting and he just gave us this biggest cuddle and it it made us feel a million dollars knowing that he respected my job, he'd give us the support I need and he made me the referee I was because there was negativities in my career but he always stuck by us and he always supported us and I tried to repay him by my performance.

59:26That cuddle meant a lot because that was my appreciation for him. For he had given us the appointment and be supporting us but also his support back that the game, even though it was difficult, was well refereed in a difficult environment. So, you know, I ended up crying in front of him and he said, you know, why are you crying? I just like broke down, you know. It was like complete emotion. Never slept that night. I remember calling Claire at half four in the morning because she wasn't allowed to stay with us after the match. They had to stay in their own hotel. And I just called, I said, please come over.

1:00:01I can't sleep and just cry me out. The motion was just so much. It was just incredible. Like how the high of building yourself up for that final and the low when it was all over was just so incredible. But lucky enough, I had people around us. Were you crying because it was over and you'd done it? It was the pressure known that you didn't want to make a big mistake. Yeah, and you hadn't. And I knew I hadn't. There was decisions in the game, of course. but I knew that I hadn't influenced the results. Do you think 2012 where you were close to walking away from football also was playing into your immersion that night?

1:00:42Everything, yeah. There was not just 2012, 2008 when I was sacked from, because I had problems with my ex-partner and business partners and I was removed from my position for a period of eight months. All of them and all the dark moments and all the bad performances and all the abuse you talk was all in one that I've done it. a person from Cramlington who didn't have much, but wanted to prove to everybody that I wanted to be the best in the world at something. And I still laugh at some time because when I used to be an electrician, we used to have our breaks at 10 o 'clock and I used to go and always have to get the sandwiches as an apprentice.

1:01:23And most of them used to say to us, Mark, you were just a time waster. You never wanted to be an electrician. You always wanted to be a referee. And for them to see that, to achieve. They didn't believe that could happen. Nobody could ever believe that I could referee a Champions League final and to be voted the best referee in the world in 2016, 2017 over all of the referees in the world. It just gives us that satisfaction that whatever happens in your life and how many people put you down, if you fight, you can still achieve. And I've had so many downs, so many people fighting against us and I'll give them one message if it wasn't for them and they know who they are if it wasn't for them I wouldn't have been the best referee in the world because they didn't really know us as a person if they got to know me as a person they would realize that when I had something I got bored and when I got bored I got lazy I got I wouldn't want it to be the best in the world because I was just happy but because they kept damaging us wanting to push us and put us down i thought you know what i'm going to push harder and when i pushed hard i got fitter i was in better positions on the field of play i was making better decisions that's what made us the best in the world that is so fascinating because there'll be a lot of people watching this or listening to this who are in a hard place at the moment thinking the fact they're in a hard place means they're also in a bad place but actually you're saying being bullied as a kid was vital the sunday league football when you were a kid was vital.

1:02:57Being suspended in 2008 was vital. The racist abuse allegations in 2012 were vital. All of these really hard moments were not necessarily bad for you. They were like, they were building you up for this moment when you could finally deliver. And that's when, at the whole emotion, the crash, forget about the Euro final, that's slightly different, but that crash on that Champions League final was just a build-up if everything that had happened all during my career and actually give something back to my family to say look I've actually done it I've got the medal and I've actually always be remembered that I've refereed the 2016 Champions League final which not every referee can say and everybody has a lot of negatives everybody has problems in their lives and the way I used to try to deal with it was a lot of reflections so I would always try and look at positives I think one thing is we do as individuals probably too much is look at the negatives and that's probably us as human beings and you know why I stopped looking at social media because it's 99.99999 % is negative you're never going to find that positive so what you've got to do yourself is to think the positive is that I've done it I can do it and allow you to achieve and when you have these dark moments you can say look I've had that moment I've had that moment I've had dark dark days since even when I finish because when you finish refereeing you think what am I going to do next yeah you have your dark moments but then I people said why did I have these tattoos put on my arm?

1:04:48It meant a lot to me. And the media was so negative about it and I was so angry about it. Because one thing that upset us was people try to betray you as a person because I've got tattoos. Them tattoos meant a lot to me because when you're having dark days, I don't have to go into the memory. I just look at my arm and go, actually, I did it. I actually did it. And it puts us as a positive. and people say you shouldn't have to ink your arm for that but that's my way of dealing with it I'm allowed to I haven't broke the law I'm allowed to have memories and special marks you know thank god I didn't have girlfriends on my arm I would be having they'd be all down my arm scratching them all but have them special memories is amazing so for me it's a positive not a negative but a lot of people had it as a negative saying he's self you know I hope he's on arse and all that it wasn't about that that was for me to remember because refereeing there's so many dark days so many dark moments because you're an individual you're not a football team if a player's having a bad day he's got his teammates refereeing you're on your own 90 % 95 % of the time you go home after a match the management don't see you until probably two days every few weeks so I'm so glad you've reached a point where you're able to reflect, to be proud of what you achieved, what you did in your career that no one can ever take away from you.

1:06:17You did, just after those two games, also referee the European Championship final. After reaching the high of the Champions League final, having just done the FA Cup final, were you actually able to enjoy that game and think, okay, this is cool? I enjoyed the tournament, but the pressure was building again because the expectations on me was higher. I'm not just a UEFA referee. I am one of UEFA's elite referees. So my first match, I had to wait a little while, was Belgium-Italy. And I tried to play an advantage to Italy. They were 2-0 up in the last minute. And Piero, next day we're having a debrief.

1:06:58He sent us a message after the game saying, fantastic, well done. Because Belgium-Italy was the first big game of the tournament. And Italy won 2-0. Belgium had a good team at that time. And he said, well done. I'll see you tomorrow. So we get into the meeting. all my team was there Anthony Andre my two assistants Piero Luigi Cleaner Hugh Dallas who was number two to UEFA Mark Batter was another UEFA referee committee member and I said how do you think it went I said yeah I was happy I said but I probably shouldn't have played that advantage in the last couple of minutes he said why and I said because Italy had 2-0 up to want the free kick he says exactly you know so he's we had that relationship where he was I'm still trying to find the perfections and he's laughing knowing that I would tell him the answer because he knew what I was like as a person I wouldn't just say I've been brilliant I would say well why I shouldn't have played that event I should have just give the free kick I did give the free kick in the end but small details and it was the next match that made us probably made me tournament it was Poland Croatia no Croatia Czech Republic and it was in Santa at the end and we knew there was going to be trouble before the game so people talk about the laws of the game I'm going into a game knowing there's going to be crowd violence.

1:08:11We just didn't know when. The game was going to get interrupted by Croatian fans. So the intelligence was all there. We're getting told what... And what was your protocol? We don't know. We don't know how it's going to happen. We don't know when it's going to happen. We don't know the level. So we don't know, do I stop the game? Is it sporadic where it's one firework and we can get it off and restart? And it happened, I think it was about 83 minutes. And the firework came on. Then more fireworks. players were trying to put them out. They were throwing them at their own goalkeeper. So I suspended play.

1:08:46We moved back to the halfway line, got everybody safe. And then it got dispersed about 10 minutes later, restart play. And I gave a penalty against Croatia for a handball that everybody thought was the opposite way. I was in a good position. I was confident. I saw it and gave the penalty and it finished 2-2. And Croatia were one of the favourites, Tetra Republic were happy. I remember David Suga came in, who was the equation president of one of the Anderage. Thankless for the games, I knew the penalty was correct. And Kalina again, message, well done, Mark, but I'll see you tomorrow. And is there any part of your brain in those big moments where there's more than just football on the line, where you're just second-guessing your decision because you know also, this is a political decision.

1:09:29This goes beyond the game. Yeah, yeah. And this was it. This is my management, talking about my management, even political with Kalina, was forget about the equation I knew I had to deal with it and I had to handle it as a referee so it wasn't just about the laws of game I had to know when like how to handle it afterwards but with Kalina for example I knew he wasn't 100 % happy with my performance I could just feel it and the minute I get into the meeting room the next day he asked us how I he said he wrote on a piece of paper something and he laid on the table and I thought what's he wrote but in my head I'm thinking so I said he said how do you think it went I said I've done better.

1:10:08I felt I could have refereed better. And everybody in the world's thinking I've had a great game. And I said, I didn't feel the same. I know it was only three days after my last game. I just didn't feel I was at the same levels. And yeah, all the big decisions are correct. Nobody's complaining. Everybody's really happy. But the small details I wasn't comfortable with, I could have managed this situation better. And he turned the piece of paper. It was exactly word for word what I'd said. so he's like happy that I've recognised it and I'm happy that he's so it was not a game but he understood me and I understood him that I knew he wasn't happy so there's no point in me going in and I remember Anthony Taylor's face it was like I said he was a disson behind the goal and Anthony was shocked that I'd actually said that I hadn't had a good game because he's thinking you're not going to get another match now and I'm like no that's not how it works politically I've done a perfect job the game's finished without any controversy we're talking about the small details this is what the top sportsmen do they find the smallest details to improve and that's them small details made me a better referee because if I just sat there and thought I've done a good job there everybody's happy and I didn't want to look for an even more 1 % more better performance I wouldn't have reached I wouldn't have probably got the final where Kalina was clever and I was always one of his favorites, if I would say.

1:11:37He supported us a lot, but in return, I'd give him everything I had. And my style of refereeing started to work because I like to manage players. I like to control situations, immune style. And I think UEFA football wanted that at that time because there was so many free kicks and so many whistling. The game started to move and evolve and my style of refereeing helped that because they wanted more game time. They wanted more advantage. They wanted, you know, less yellow cards. They wanted people with personality. But I remember one night and it was in Malmo. Never forget it. And the match was Malmo-Atletico Madrid and I thought my career's over.

1:12:20There was lots of problems that have happened before the game that were out of my control, but ultimately I'm the boss. so anywhere for matches there's a morning meeting the delegate went for the first time without the fourth official they stopped all the match officials normally the referee used to go but then they moved it to the fourth officials with the delegate sorry the match observer then it was just a match observer so I asked the match observer after the meeting are the team colours okay? yes they're okay Mark perfect okay no problems so it goes to the game and May being May will have four colors to choose from.

1:13:01However, when I'm in the hotel, because we'll have a badge, a FIFA badge, I stick my FIFA badge on and stitch it because sometimes with the sweat that comes off, I stitch it so it's all prepared in the afternoon. And because I know the colors, I don't take the rest of the kit because there's no point in my bag. I've got the one kit. I know which kit it's going to be. And what comes out of the tunnel and there's no issues, Atletico have got their tracksuit tops on Malmo I think were playing in blue and they took their tracksuit tops off Atletico after the Champions League anthem and I must have been their 12th man I was in the same colour kit as them in their Champions League match and I couldn't delay you can't delay the kick-off because everything's synced so I have to start the match the passing is the ball the players are whinging it gets to half-time only asked the guys can we change kits I knew I didn't have I said to the I could take the fourth officials hopefully the assistant referees have got theirs nobody did only had one kit one black top so I said look I'll put the black top on the two assistants had yellow after the match the game was from a refereeing point of view no issues but the email I got from Peter Luigi Colina that night I was like in sweats I was cold it was just ruthless that's not what I expect in a Champions League game it was absolutely shambolic just lots of you know negative and I remember flying home the next day crying just in my seat looking out the window reflecting thinking my career's over so I started drafting an email apologising this is what I'll do if I get the chance again this is what I'll do in future take pictures of the kid blah blah so I put a lot of things I give them a lot of things that I would put in place strange enough what I was going to put in place he shared with all the referees so all the referees did it for the future but I'll never forget he never spoke to us after for about a week and then I got a a message from UEFA your referee in a Champions League game and I got a message of him saying don't do it again and I can tell you now I ran the hardest I've ever ran I tried to referee the best best I could ever run.

1:15:25And I gave him absolutely every bit of energy I had because I wanted to pay him back for what he did and give me a chance, another chance. And I remember after the game, he sent us a message saying, outstanding. Just like, all because he pushed us, but I made a mistake, but he gave us a chance straight away. And with the other people, I'm not sure I would have had that same chance. Wow. He sounds like an amazing guy and a brilliant leader of people. Yeah. can I ask you the secret to communication on a football pitch with footballers in the heat of battle yeah a lot of it was diffusing situations I was never some referees had a way of being probably cocky if that's the word I've used I never did that yeah I did say things and treat them exactly the same I would treat a superstar like I did a third division player I treat them all the same and I think it was fair to do that I didn't give anybody any preferential treatment I think the star players like that that I had that way of treating everybody the same like you refereed Ronaldo right?

1:16:31yeah Messi Messi Lewandowski yeah DeGreimović yeah do they act in a different way on a football pitch? they're all winners and that's why because they're winners that's why they're top of their profession and everybody wants to win they're all trying find ways to win football matches and when I got more and more experienced, I got into their heads. I was preempting what they were going to do before they even done it. And that's what they liked, that they thought, my God, he knows what we're going to do next. But I also had relationship. What I felt was, because Kalina was like that with me, I tried that same philosophy.

1:17:11I tried to not be mates with players because never have a drink with them afterwards or socialize with them. They've had their phone numbers. But while we were on 90 minutes, I had to gain their trust. Yeah. One of them was decision-making, of course, not being nervous. There was a lot of factors around that. Once I gained their trust, the game becomes so easy. You know, you just had to make sure that you made the decision. But when you're making a decision, you have a lot of pressure coming from the players. But if they trust you, they don't give you that pressure. They just leave you alone thinking you'll make that decision.

1:17:46And that's buildup of experience, but also the way you speak to them so I try to work with them to make my life easy and if they made my life easy then refereeing becomes so simple I still had my problems I remember Adam Lallana he didn't respond very well when I you know it was Everton Southampton Christmas time and I should have sent him off really I told him I should have sent him off afterwards like later on when we spoke about it months later because he decided the next day it was all in the media that I said that he'd changed since he'd played for England because he abused us and my defence mechanism was not to send him off people say we should have sent him off what he said I should have sent him off but do I win do I win that argument if I send him off because I haven't been consistent because I've managed other players in that way so I tried to manage him in that way except he didn't react he decided that he would go to his club and his club made a through the media that I'd said that he's changed since he played for England and he was all apologetic next time I I saw him but I think how pathetic it was that I diffused a situation which he had his attitude had changed that's what I'd noticed he might have said you've been the shittest referee since the Champions League final I'd say you might be true but I wouldn't have like made it in the media you know and that's some things it worked but then some things didn't work and then you have to reflect again knowing that people like Alan Nalana you don't speak to him in that way again you don't you know your management would be slightly different in that way and people say you know does that mean you don't you give me a yellow card I'm not saying that but it's human when players are getting when players are abusing referees they're very rare get second chances the players who are gentlemen seem to get second chances what was the secret to managing Messi on a football field?

1:19:47It was the first time I ever refereed him. It was like, the way he moved the ball, I started watching the ball and I stopped. I had to say to myself the first time I can't watch the ball anymore. I've got to watch him because I was like dizzy. The way he could move the ball, you know he's going to be fouled because he's a targeted player. That's human. You know, it doesn't take a genius and a referee to work out that he's going to be targeted. So you've got to manage that situation certainly in and around the penalty area inside the penalty area is slightly different but you've also got to manage him as an individual sometimes i used to find if if you don't whistle free kicks if they keep getting contact and they don't receive a foul at some point they're going to get frustrated so you're trying to limit the frustration by when they do get kick you've got to judge is it is that kick enough for him to fall down is it enough to award a foul where it is in the field of play because you know everybody knows that there's a higher threshold when it goes inside the area than it is on the halfway line that's just football understanding the contact has to be more because you're giving somebody a free shot a goal it's easier on the halfway line to award the foul and people say yeah no it's not it's the same if you understand football football knows that there's a different higher threshold different in areas and it's just the way football is but Messi itself I refereed him once and I cautioned him and he just didn't speak because he deserved it he put his foot on another player he knew he'd done it but he had probably big respect for me because he sees me probably I had an easier because I refereed in the Premier League they see you week in week out in the Premier League and also they see you week in week out in the Champions League I'm watching memories of managing Ronaldo on a football field because I think of all the players that we've watched over the years his will to win is beyond what I found with Ronaldo he used to lift his team as well he had this something about him when he was at Manchester United a young player he was like the captain type of thing he was leading from example everything he was leading from example I found him easier to deal with because he spoke more English Messi didn't really speak much English and what was it like watching him lead at such a close quarters I mean as close as I am to you I never got I never never thought him as a superstar I just thought him as a world-class footballer that I was privileged to be on the same field and being able to share the same experiences you know being involved in a Champions League involved and with the big crowds with a you know the great games so I never seen him as that I just knew that he was a world-class player that sometimes even as a referee, when he did something amazing, I would say to myself, that's incredible.

1:22:37Listen, Mark, I've loved this conversation. Some quickfire questions to finish with.

1:22:44The three non-negotiable behaviours that you think are most important for a referee. Foul language. I'm not talking foul language. I'm talking when it gets personal. Cheating. I hear cheating. tell somebody's strong with cheating and I'm not saying it should be dealt with by the referee but if a person's cheating why they're not giving a one match ban the next week is beyond me it's just cheating should be out of the game and just respect respect towards opponents and referees in general I think everybody's a part of the entertainment business and everybody should respect that entertainment business and everybody has a role to play even referees yes or no to these changes so in the US 23 states have got specific sports official assault statutes yeah should the same be brought into the UK rather than just the generic assault laws that we have yes I believe in it but I think we've got to find a way if a referee's assaulted the issue you've got is in our current law system that it doesn't align to the sports which means in general the player is found not gilly because there's no camera and that's why referees are now wearing cameras.

1:24:02Should we adopt the rule of the 10 meter enhancement if a player is abusive like in rugby? Definitely not. Why? It didn't work years ago and it won't work again. The benefit in rugby is you're creating space. Space is a huge advantage in rugby. When you're sinbin somebody, for example, sinbin works in rugby, it won't in football because you're creating that space wide. In football, you're just creating a negative. So Sinbin, for example, he would just put 10 players behind the ball for 10 minutes, become a non-event. If we remember the 9.15 meter moving forward. So if you did it in the defensive half, the goalkeeper just spun it and it was a pointless exercise because that 9.15 isn't that important because a goalkeeper can reach the edge of the penalty area anyway.

1:24:47It only ever got really positive, really difficult around the edge of the penalty area. It never got inside the penalty because I'm not sure a referee would really push the 9.15 inside because it's a penalty. But if you remember that day and it changed the world, it changed that rule, it was Gavin McCann, Sunderland against Man United with David Beckham. And they knew David Beckham wanted that free kick 25 yards from a goal or whatever, as it is now, but he was in that perfect moment. And what Gavin McCann did was kick the ball away, which meant David Beckham had to move the ball to the edge of the penalty area which meant he couldn't get the ball up and down David Beckham was furious Gavin Kahn made the move so it's not for football and I'm not sure the next the Sinbin can work in football I think I've said in the past there is some lower changes that can be done to enhance the game one is there's too much time taken if corner kicks goal kicks I know the goalkeeper has now been addressed with the eight seconds with six seconds before so I don't think what eight seconds is going to do and throw-ins.

1:25:58Why do I have to have a player cautioned if he doesn't take it from the right position? Just give it to the other team. If they take too long at a corner kick it goes to a goal kick. Make the game faster and more entertaining for the people. What about playing clips in stadiums of controversial moments? I'm all for and I believe that the microphone should be opened up at that point like we're doing rugby. So we've got full transparency. Why have they not done that? The issue you've got is in some stadiums, sorry, for the video, some stadiums have got issues with screens. That's one issue. The audio is still at that phase of making sure that the referees are comfortable.

1:26:31Some are, some aren't. But that's now the job. So if you're not comfortable with being heard. I did it in the Ballers League and it wasn't easy at all. But it's got to be a step forward. And I like when the rugby referees, they're just like talking to normal. they don't have to be like really polite and like I mean in a way that yes Stuart Artwell it's a foul you're just like look watching the screen yeah I see your opinion there I can understand that but look go back one step he slips into the challenge therefore I'm not sure that that would reach the criteria of a red card are you comfortable with that to the VR are you comfortable with that yeah yeah and then move on like they do in rugby I personally think that's the biggest change that would change abuse of referees if we can hear the conversation they're having and humanize them and understand the challenges of that job.

1:27:22Yeah, and I think one of the biggest, I think referees are guilty as well. We've lost the ability to manage. We've lost the ability of, I think referees have become too robotic and we've lost that human side of it. And I think fans are less engaging now. They just want to criticize now. They want to blame. There's such a blame culture now. but I think VR has changed a lot the way referees are dealing with it they're making more mistakes on the field of play than ever before you know that never happened in our day yeah we made one every five matches big ones but we're seeing it more and more and I think one thing that's done the referees have lost the ability to make decisions in split second we had to even though we might have not seen the full the full thing out with two eyes we still had the feelings we still had all all of our senses, all of our knowledge, all of our experience to make that split-second decision.

1:28:20The referees don't do that now with VR. They just go, I'm not making it. I let the VR deal with it. Fascinating. I've loved this conversation. Final question. You're one golden rule for living a high-performance life. After all of your experiences, the highs, the lows, the people you've spent your life around, what would you like to leave people thinking about? Stay humble, be true to yourself, and just be kind. and I haven't always been kind, but I've learned over years to listen to others, be kind, understand how others work and always, always push for your dreams because everybody has a dream.

1:29:01But don't have your dream that is unachievable. That's probably one of people's downfalls in life. You think you can achieve. I'm going to win the lottery tonight. that's unachievable or highly unachievable think that you're going to get three numbers that's a win and that's where you should look at life well a big thanks to Mark for sharing his story if you got something from today's episode please hit follow on Apple or Spotify it helps Damien and I attract even more incredible guests to the show and if you want to get episodes before anybody else including extended episodes then just download the High Performance app from the App Store thanks for listening We'll see you soon.

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