Matt Fitzpatrick: How to find your edge when you're playing to win (E225)

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0:46Hi there, you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that unlocks the minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jake Humphrey and alongside Professor Damien Hughes, we learn from the stories, successes and struggles of our guests, allowing us all to explore, be challenged and to grow. Here's what's coming up today. When I've played my best, I can compete with the best and I just have a real belief in the people I work with and a real belief in myself to find the answers to get better, whichever way it is. Like, I'm not worried about playing someone who's 6 '4 and hits it 340 down the middle.

1:24It's like, I'll beat them another way. The US Open, I probably wasn't really expected to win. It was the best I've ever played, you know, there's no doubt about that. In those final moments coming down the last five, six holes when the pressure's on, You need to be strong mentally, not to kind of just wilt. And I just remember looking up and it was like going towards the flag and I was just like, oh my God, this is like, thank God, like having such a good shot there. And, you know, I remember being on the green and saying to like my dad, like we did it. It's the beating, everyone. It is the winning.

2:00It's every shot matters. So today we welcome to the High Performance Podcast, the golfer Matt Fitzpatrick, a guy born in Sheffield who went on to conquer the world by winning the US Open. Of course, also recently helping Europe to win the Ryder Cup. And look, if you're not a golf fan, that's great. I'm not huge into golf. I don't play golf. But this conversation was so interesting. This was a conversation with a guy all about finding his limits, whether that's in his personal life or in his sporting life, about setting targets, about dealing with pressure, about living with intention. But right now, let's get to it and welcome the golfer, Matt Fitzpatrick, to the High Performance Podcast.

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4:31Well, Matt, welcome to High Performance. Thank you. What is high performance to you? High performance to me is competing or achieving, doing something at a very high level with success. I've been thinking about that for a while, to be honest, but that's what I would say. So I'd love to know where the seeds of this kind of competitive mindset were planted. if you rewind the clock of 20-25 years, what do you think comes to you from your childhood that maybe set you up for this? I think the majority of it was my dad, to be honest. Even when we were little, you know, we were laughing that I used to be in on goal and he just tripped me up because he was obviously twice my size.

5:15So he just didn't want to lose. And I think growing up with my dad and obviously a younger brother as well, once we sort of got to the age that we could both play sport and stuff you know that was the big thing I think he sort of pulled it out of us really and we just always wanted to beat him. So what sort of messages was he giving you then at that young age? I guess like when I was sort of 9, 10, 11 I was just sort of getting into the game you know playing he wasn't like coaching me but he was in terms of technique but he was kind of coaching me and what club to hit or where to aim and then little things like that I think that once I started playing more competitions, it was more, if you want to do this, we'll take you, we'll, you know, we'll ferry you around, we'll do what, what you want to do, but it's on you to put in the work, you know, he was never super pushy.

6:06You got to go, you know, you need to stay there for two hours and do this. And, um, both my parents, it was just like, if you want to do it, like, you know, you've got to put the work and effort into it. And I think there was, you know, for me there was always that that i did i did want to do that and at the same time i wanted to kind of i just wanted to win what age are we talking about here then probably like 15 onwards i'd say that where it really sort of started being like okay i wanted to get into the england boys england under 16 set up and all of a sudden you start you know my dad's like well these are the results you might probably going to need to get selected and uh these are the tournaments you played i mean my dad's so like well researched in in amateur golf stuff when we were younger it was like we play you know you should play this it's a great golf course or this is a great tournament and um you know just of his own interest he's just gone out out of his way to to sort of find all the information really there's a really interesting dynamic when we look at your background that so your caddy billy use that great phrase where he said you look like an altar boy but there's a real grit about you.

7:13But also there's something around you taking comfort in the numbers and the stats. Because they don't lie. They tell you where you are. And it sounds very much like they were the two elements that your dad was feeding into you. Make sure you know where you are, but you've got to have that result. Yeah, yeah, definitely. For me, it's probably not until, I'd probably say 2019 is where it really took off in terms of the numbers and everything, where I really sort of got a lot deeper into it. So what are you now, 29? 29, yeah. So we're going back five years when you said I went. So what happened then when you were 24, 25?

7:51What was the awakening at that moment? Yeah, I think 2018, I'd not really played great. I'd played okay. I brought on my now trainer, Matt Roberts, and he used to work in football. And he was like, listen, I think you need to change your practice, like how you do it. and this is a small area of skill acquisition and challenges and all that sort of stuff. I was like, okay, fair enough. What are you thinking? Towards the end of the year, we tried some of these challenges that he thought of. No offense, he didn't really know much about golf at that time. What sort of things? We did five distances, say 100, and then every five yards up until 125.

8:35Three balls at each distance and you've got to try and hit it on the numbers, basically. So nothing like super crazy, but we have a piece of technology called TrackMan, which basically tracks that. So we just do it on the range. And then I noticed that I had a bit of an improvement. It didn't stand out massively, but I felt like that was definitely better. But then to rewind back to 2015, it was the first year I was on tour and I wasn't very well, not played well at the start of the season. And all of a sudden I was just like at home And I was like, I'm just going to write out a plan. And I wrote out this blueprint, basically, of how I envisaged how I would practice, how I would, you know, do my daily drills or exercises.

9:19Literally everything that we talked about in 2018 was just on this piece of paper. And like, it wasn't until 2019 that I actually did something with it. So I brought someone else in, one of my coaches, Steve Robinson, who's more of like a performance guy from my side. He's a golf coach as well, but he's purely like looks at the stats, thinks about drills and challenges that we can do to, you know, hone in on certain skills that we need. And that's kind of where it all kicked off 2019 onwards was then really. So, yeah, I would say that was kind of the awakening to like all of a sudden, oh, wow, I'm missing a big part of the game here.

9:59Well, there's that really interesting phrase, Matt, that good is the enemy of great because you were relatively successful. You were where you'd have dreamt of when you were 15. Yeah. And I'm interested in what kind of lessons you could pass on to our listeners then about how you do have the courage to break things even if it's not particularly broken. Yeah, and I think that's the hard part for me. I think I'm obsessed with trying to get better with anything, anything and everything, like I'll look into it. And my coach, Mikey, always says that he's like, it's such a great trait of mine, but sometimes it can hinder me as well, you know, come too obsessed with something or searching a little bit too much.

10:43And I think it's been great to be able to make these changes. And fortunately, I feel like they've paid off, but I feel that I've been lucky to have the people around me that have helped me do that in the right way. I think it'd be very easy and you look at other players maybe in the past that may have tried to try things drastic changes i you know i can't speak on behalf of them but i don't think they've got maybe the best advice on it um and i just feel the people around me have always given me they've always been honest they've always given me that you know what they think and i trust them i think that's kind of why i've been able to maybe just push on really so can i pick up on that word trust that if you're going to allow people into your inner circle that are going to challenge you and push you, what is it that they do that means that you will invest your trust in them?

11:34Well, if you look at my team, they got me from Yorkshire. Rule number one. Yeah, but no, no. I think within the team, which I've always appreciated and I think is just invaluable, is everyone's always been honest with me. There's no sugar coat in anything. It's not like, you know, it's just straight to the point. It tells me how it is, tells me if I've been an annoying little shit or I've been, you know, working hard really. And the people that I work with have had experience before I started working with them more and more. So, you know, that's obviously a big factor. But they work hard themselves to get better as well.

12:15And I think that's kind of the big thing that I feel everyone that within my team kind of works hard to make themselves better, really. I'm interested in when you talk about all the different inputs that you get, Matt. What do you think makes you so coachable? I feel like because I'm always just trying to get better. I'm sure my coaches probably think I'm a pain in the arse, to be honest, because I'm like asking questions, oh, what about this and what about that? But I think I've got better at that over time too. I think it's very easy in golf to be very reactive. And I still have those days where you come off the course and it's not working out and it's like, what about this?

12:51We need to try this. But certainly conversations I've had with Mike when I finished the round, I've tried to be much sort of calmer, a bit clearer in my thinking and tried not to be too reactive, tried to come up with a simple plan that we can kind of execute for maybe the next day or if it's the following week. I think that's been a big thing. I think it's just me in the past. I feel like I've come off sometimes or even in practice weeks and it's like I get in a bit of a state. It's like, well, this is wrong and this is wrong and I need to do this and what do you think of this? And you end up just confusing yourself rather than giving two or three things that you can stick to.

13:29Can you give us an example of when you've adopted this new mindset then? I think certainly over the last few months, to be honest. Struggled with Driver, always been a strength of mine and I struggled this year with it. And literally it was only about four or five weeks ago. it was like the Saturday I played in Memphis in the first playoff event. And we basically said, all right, okay, three things that we're going to do for the next however many weeks, or basically just stick to those three things and it should improve. Fortunately, it all did. But I think it's more like I have such high expectations of myself and high expectations of what I want to achieve, it's very easy for me to kind of get worked up about that when it's not happening.

14:16And I look at other players that are playing well week in, week out, and it's like, well, you know, I want to do that. And I'm trying to almost get there a bit too quick, and that's when I feel like I've got a short fuse sometimes, and that's where I've had to take a step back, coming off the golf course and try to have a bit clearer thinking and have like a very calm conversation with Mike. And he's fantastic at it because he understands the mind so well. He's very into Steve Peter's chimp paradox and that sort of stuff. And that's another reason for me why he's very, very, very good at his job.

14:49So we've spoken a fair bit about the kind of physical things that you might have done or learned or improved. Let's have a conversation then about the mental side of golf. When did you realize that you were going to get involved in a sport where you lose an awful lot more than you win? Once, like I was sort of 18, 19, I had some really good results winning the US Amateur. now all of a sudden these professional doors open it's like hang on a minute like this you're doing this for a living like you need to make the cut to make to make money and you need to get a card to be able to play the whole season next year that there's loads of these things all of a sudden that enter your mind and I felt very lucky that actually looking back I wasn't ever really worried about that I never caught myself like oh god I you know I need to make this call I need to make this like and I think that was probably from my parents just because I felt like they would always look after me really which was probably a bit unfair on them but I certainly think growing up that they just instilled that you've got to work hard and you'll get there in the end and I think that still is always my thought really.

15:58So what would you say was the big difference between the world of amateur golf and professional golf when you first made that transition? I think amateur golf, it's kind of like, you know, you don't have a great result and it's like, well, it's okay. There's, you know, there's next week. It doesn't really hinder you that much. Professional golf, you know, you miss a couple of cuts in a row. It's like panic stations almost. It's like, right, well, okay, I need to do something because I can't do that and get to where I want. Am I going to lose my card? You know, how am I going to afford to play the next week?

16:30and I felt very lucky that what I did achieve in my amateur career kind of put me in a good position going into my professional career. I was lucky enough to have great sponsors at the time and didn't have to worry about travel costs and entry costs and all that sort of stuff. So I think there is just a big shift in mindset and I feel like I got lucky in that I never felt that change. I just felt like it was always just going to happen almost. it's interesting that isn't it that it didn't derail you at any point and you weren't kind of overwhelmed by the fact that you were a pro suddenly playing alongside like these legends of the game was there any struggles because you're making it sound easy I know I know and that's the weird thing I think obviously I'm very numbers driven but like I look at like my stats effectively and the graph is kind of a shallow incline, which is great.

17:34There has been drops in performance. There's no doubt about that, and that's just always going to happen. But I feel like my first year on tour was probably the biggest learning experience because I started off the year and didn't play very well. And it's like, well, now I'm getting closer to the end of the season, running out of tournaments almost, and then all of a sudden something happened and I couldn't even tell you what it was. I just started having a couple of good results and ended up keeping my card. And then all of a sudden it's like, well, now I'm safe. Then I ended up kicking on some more.

18:06And I think for me, it was just kind of around 17 and 18, 2017 and 18, I think that was kind of the time where I was playing well, but like I wasn't kicking on as much as I wanted to. You know, I was looking at players around me that I knew and I wasn't performing well enough in the US and that was obviously where the game was going and that's where I felt like something needed to change. So when you talk about this sense of expectation that you had of yourself, how did you combat the idea that maybe you had just found your limit? You know, like I can imagine that for some players they get there and the culmination of being on the tour is enough and complacency then kicks in as long as I can maintain this and you seem to be somebody that was constantly striving for the next target, the next challenge.

18:56Yeah, I had a funny conversation with Mike after the US Open. I was like, it was obviously such a high and I've kind of come off it and I'm like, I almost feel flat. I felt like, what if I almost didn't want to go and practice? I almost didn't want to play the rest of the tournaments for the year. I just kind of wanted to enjoy it. And I'm thinking to myself, well, will I ever get that bug back to go and practice hard and work hard and came back like three months later or something when I wasn't playing as well. But I think it's just like always been in my nature that I just feel like I can compete with the best.

19:35When I've played my best, I can compete with the best. And to me, it's trying to get more of that out of me more regularly, really. I know people make a big thing about noting down sort of, what do they say, every shot he's ever played, is written in one of the books, right? I'm interested in what that does for you because it feels to me like you've got a load of safety nets. You know, we've spoken about what your parents provide for you and the people around you provide you with this sort of safety net. I know you recently got engaged. There's another one that it's almost like you're great at putting these things in that just almost give you a bit of protection.

20:11Am I reading that right? Yeah, yeah. No, I would say so. I think, like I say, I'm obsessed with the numbers because I just feel like if I know where I currently am or know where I am at all times, I know I need to get better than that or what do I need to do to get better than that? And then it's like, well, how are we going to do that? And I feel like that's a combination of all the team where we think of the ideas to get better. That is why really I keep all the information and the data and look at it just because I feel like that tells me where I am at all times and tells me, okay, well, I've got this, how much to go or I need to change this, I need to do that.

20:50Can I ask when you first wrote down those numbers? I've kept stats ever since I was on tour, like on the course of 2015, even in my amateur days before, but I don't know where they are. But 2015 to today, I've got my stats from just tournament play. But 2019 onwards is when I started recording like my practice challenges and stuff like that. So it's every shot now like gets... Pretty much, yeah. Anytime that I'm doing like a performance sort of challenge, really, that's what we record. I'm not recording like every shot after I've hit a technical, you know, just a regular range shot. And how often do you go back to revisit these?

21:27Well, we're kind of in the process at the minute of trying to pull it all together in one place and be able to compare practice and tournament play, seeing if there's any correlation, you know, when I practice well here, does that influence this? or we're trying to do that at the minute basically. We've got five years of data and as Steve, my coach, says, it feels like we're just collecting data for data's sake now whereas we need someone to go through it and see what they can find and I'll be devastated if there's nothing but I'm convinced there's at least one thing. There's got to be one thing.

22:03What do you think it will show? Honestly, I've got no idea because I just feel like there's so many variables. There's so many variables. I mean, the one thing that I feel like I came up with the other day was noting down when I had any technical changes in my swing or anything like that. And then finding the date, seeing where I was at with my game, and then look a week later, two, three, four weeks, seeing like when that intervention, when it either kicked in, did it improve, did it not improve? because I have kept notes over the last five years of what I did in my lessons with Mike. So I feel like that's another area that we can look into.

22:45I mean, it's interesting. We interviewed Matthew McConaughey, the Oscar-winning actor, who has got 30 years' worth of data through his diaries. And what he said he does is, when things start to go wrong or awry, he goes back to the data and says, when it was going well, what was I doing? What was my sleeping? What was my diet like? Who was I hanging around with? And that allows him to see where he's maybe come off course a little bit. And I'm interested, do you think there's a killer start that when I nail that start, everything else tends to follow? I do feel like there could be, yeah. Like I say, there's so many variables that go into practice and tournament play, but everyone has a blueprint of how their game is.

23:29So, you know, my strengths are driving and putting. other guys might be I am playing short game but I feel like I'm taking a guess here if I practice and my driving's good and my putting's good probably going to lead to good results on the course in those areas I don't think it's quite as black and white as that but I definitely think there's something in it so how much do you play to your strengths and how much do you try to mitigate for your weaknesses then again that's that that's the balance that we're looking at You know, we have the breakdown of how much time we're spending in each area and what it is that we need to do to improve in each area.

24:07For me this year, my driving normally has strength is what's let me down. I would say the last month we spent much more time on driving. So you'd think other areas might drop. But me and Micah were saying it's like spinning plates, you know. You spend all this time on one and one's probably like dropping off. and that's the annoying thing about golf is there's just so many things to keep an eye on. So all of this is about you, right? It's about your stats, your numbers, your shots, your preparation. What room have you left for watching other people and asking questions of what others do? I really don't like to ask other golfers.

24:46I really don't. And people often have said that to me, you know, like Billy said, I'll speak to Luke Donald about his short game or speak to whoever it is about that. But they swing it differently, their feelings are different, their technique is different. I don't feel like how it can apply to me. Things like course preparation or diet or ideas on how to play the game, yes, I would get it. But anything that's probably physical, I wouldn't want to get involved because it's not my pattern. and I just don't I feel really uncomfortable with that stuff because I don't feel like I want to get into bad habits from someone else So have you gone to any goal I don't know, I look at someone let's take Tiger Woods as a great example an elite golfer, decade after decade he must have some mental advice that he can hand to other golfers it almost feels a shame not to tap into that I agree, I agree and I think I think it's funny for me personally I think when you're actually involved in the game and you see these people you play alongside them and you get to know them you know you understand the character you understand how they are in these moments I feel like when you're playing in the last group coming down the final stretch and you know you see the strengths and you see the weaknesses in my opinion and just like they see my strengths and weaknesses as well and I think everyone would rate themselves as better than everyone else.

26:26You know, golf's a very selfish individual sport and I would say that we all put ourselves on a pedestal above everyone else when we feel like we're playing our best, I think anyway, certainly at the top level. And for me, I find it hard to kind of, I also find it a bit odd when you're trying to play against these guys and be like, oh, what do you think about this? for them to share that advice I think is difficult I probably wouldn't dream of asking Tiger any mental advice because I'd be scared to death to ask him for one but also I don't think he'd tell me and I always think that I always wonder like are you getting the truth?

27:04almost like they tell you yeah they tell you something that's a bit nicer or simpler than actually what they're really doing think positive you've won one of the most famous golf tournaments in the world why would you be scared to go and speak to Tiger Woods? It's Tiger Woods, isn't it? No, I could have a conversation with Tiger, but I just feel like, again, it's the same deal. You know, he's playing against, I mean, he's not playing at the minute, but he's playing against me. Why would he reveal that? Like, you know, people ask my advice. I'll be honest, I don't tell them the truth. Like, well, I tell them the truth, but like a very dumbed down version.

27:44Yeah, very, very dumbed down version. Because I noticed when you spoke about Alice, she was my driver. So we focused on three areas. You didn't tell us what the three areas were. No, no, no. That was on purpose, right? Well, yeah. Yeah. See, what I found interesting watching some of the documentaries about you, though, Matt, is that some of the big alphas that are on the American tour that were quite loud and brash and very dominating characters. And you were sort of the opposite of that. You were almost quite quiet, keeping your head down, just getting on with it. and I'm interested in how do you block out the noise from those dominant characters to make sure you can just focus on your game rather than being distracted I think it's just again having the trust in doing what works well for me people laugh at all the numbers and stats that I take down it's like not in like a nasty way but it's like it's like a bit of a running joke oh Fitz he's probably got a spreadsheet out which always makes me laugh yeah it always makes me laugh no not really no no not really it always makes me laugh because like to me it's like well I feel like I've got an edge over everyone because I do that and that's like that's like my thing just like they might think something else that they do is an edge as well but I just have a real belief in the people I work with and the real belief in myself to find the answers to get better whichever way it is like I'm not worried about playing someone who's 6 '4 and hits it 340 down the middle, it's like, I'll beat them another way.

29:19So you know when you walk into the next hole, and again, I'm often intrigued to take us into that conversation of when you're walking together with them, are you talking to each other? What's the conversation like? It's polite chit-chat. Is it? Yeah, it's like, oh, what's your schedule coming up? And are you going anywhere on holiday? It's just like polite chit-chat. No sledging? No sledging. No, no, never. but that's like the swing looks a bit off to those guys exactly there's none of that but I mean you know Billy always tells me Seve always used to say shake hands on the tee with the guy and he'd be like play well and couldn't mean it less you know it's like everyone always does it they always say oh yeah play well do we really mean it I mean you want to win right you want to beat them everyone wants to beat each other yeah let's talk then about Billy because I know it's a special relationship that you both have and it needs to be really between golfer and caddy how would you describe your relationship uh i think we've got a very good relationship i think i respect billy a hell of a lot given what he's done in his career his experience his knowledge sometimes we don't always see eye to eye and i have a different theory on what he has he's taught me a lot i think i've taught him a lot i think the biggest thing is that we just seem to have a lot in common.

30:38Like, you know, we're kind of both from working class families, I guess, and just like very down to earth. Both love football. And I just think like we just get on really well and just, you know, for the most part, I'd say we just enjoy our time out there, really. And what's the biggest thing he's taught you? I wouldn't necessarily say it's taught me. I think it's how we work together. I think he's very straight to the point. He's very direct. You know, it's like there's never um in an ah and it's like it's 180 79 that's it you know it's whereas i've had caddies previously where it's like well it could be this but maybe that what about there and it's like you you end up like having too many thoughts in your head then you're not committed to the shot and then it's probably a poorer shot i think i've learned a lot from that being more you know just straight to the point and he's very honest in his feedback and what he says to me about my game how he sees my game, his conversations with the coaches.

31:40He's very lucky. Lee Westwood's arguably one of the best drivers of the ball all time. Seve, Palostiros, one of the best, you know, short games of all time. And Sergio Garcia's probably one of the best iron players of all time, which is painful for me because he's like, I hit all these other shots and he's like, what is that? You know, because he's seen those guys. So, it's tough because sometimes he's got those colored glasses on where he's, you know, but it's very valuable his feedback what he what he gives and obviously as you just mentioned he's worked with the best right so we've discussed the fact that you're a humble guy are you humble enough to say to him what would Seve have done in this situation what would he have played here no you wouldn't I don't play the same style of shots like Seve or I don't have the same technique as Lee or Sergio and like what's going to be again kind of go back to numbers like what's optimal for me?

32:33What's the right thing for me? What do I practice? You know, there's multiple times this year where he said, oh, I see this shot. And I'm like, well, I don't really practice that. So I don't feel comfortable doing that. I'm going to do this one instead. Which again, you know, he totally understands. And how do you agree to disagree then when that happens? What's your strategy? I think sometimes I could be better with that rather than just agreeing to what he says. I think we do have very good conversations if we're unsure and if I'm kind of again I'm kind of looking at the numbers side of it and it's like well if the flag's at the back of the green and there's water over the green you take the club that is almost physically impossible that can go that far rather than trying to really hit it close say 3 out of 10 you could hit it really close but the other 7 could go in the water it's like sort of give and take.

33:27And I feel like we have those conversations pretty openly and well. And what room do you leave for instinct? I think it's half and half. I know it doesn't sound like it, but I do think it's half and half. I think, you know, hitting the golf shot itself is, yes, you're trying to hit these positions, but like if you're on the golf course thinking, well, okay, I've got to go here and here and here and here, you're never going to hit a good shot. So I think we often talk about doing these rehearsals and drills and technique stuff on the range. But then when I go on the golf course, it's like, you just play.

34:02You know, you're not thinking about that. You just play. And then at the same time, you know, I'm thinking about, okay, what's the optimal play here? What's the optimal place to hit it here? What about here? So I do think it is a combination. today's high performance podcast is in association with ag1 and actually the last couple of weeks has been a great reminder to me about why ag1 is so important for me because i've been on the road the fact i've been living out of a suitcase i haven't had my routine means actually i have missed taking my ag1 in the mornings and i've honestly noticed the difference i've had a drop in energy i haven't felt great because for me ag1 is my daily nutritional insurance it's good for my energy.

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37:11Definitely find shoes that get you at prices that get your budget. DSW, let us surprise you.

37:22And you use that lovely phrase before around, before I commit to the shot. And I'm interested, what's the process then from the moment you arrive on the tee between taking in all this data and information until the moment that you choose to, I'm going to commit to this completely. yeah we talk about uh you know first things like okay what club is it off the tee all right it's driver where's our line okay it's that tv tower all right where's the wind it's off the right okay and then then for me that once i've got that information from billy and obviously a little bit input myself then it's like okay it's over to me it's okay well how am i going to get the ball there so then it's like okay i know what you know i know what club it is i know what what i'm doing now i've just got to get it there and then it's kind of like into my routine and then what's that so my routine is like two practice swings behind the ball look at where you know i'm trying to finish it step in there aim my club face have another look set up have another look and then get and then go i've had that same routine you know for years now in the heat the moment having that consistency of doing the same thing you know breathing the same amount of times whatever it might be i think that helps the clarification of you know what you're going to do and in those moments does self-doubt exist is there that cheeky little dissenting voice in your head yeah definitely definitely if there's if there's water on the left it's always like don't hit it left you know but i think when you're playing well it's kind of less of an issue because you just feel like you know where the ball's going to go.

39:05I think when you're not playing so well, it's almost a bit like, well, on the last hole I had it left and on the two holes I had it right, like, where's this one going? You know, I think when you're not playing well, it's kind of, it's obviously much harder and I think that's kind of the big issue. I think when you are playing well, it's a little bit easier to commit. And so much work has gone into your game, physically and mentally. You've got great people around you. you clearly work incredibly hard to get yourself to this point. But before you won the US Open, there was something that was not quite right.

39:36And I've read that Billy stepped in to help. Would you mind sharing that story with us? Yeah, it's kind of a mix of the two, really. Finished 21, played okay, didn't play great. Felt like my irons were the big letdown. That's where I was missing a big, big part of my game. So we basically changed my technique with my irons. me and Mike and he wanted me to basically be a little bit straighter in my left arm which did a couple of things to help me have more control basically practiced it in January felt pretty good then basically went on a run between January and May of like maybe seven top tens out of ten events or something it was just like my best run of golf that I've ever played like I I just knew that I was playing really well.

40:26Everything felt really solid. But then I was putting myself in these positions because I was playing so much better, but nothing was really going my way. I wasn't kind of getting in the final groups content on Sunday. It was like I was having average days Saturday, then maybe a good day Sunday to finish top 10 rather than kind of being in there with a chance to win. So I was getting frustrated with it really. and I think one week was probably one week too far for Billy because I was complaining, oh, how's that done that? And I can't believe that's a lie and this never goes right for us. And I missed the court, didn't play very well.

41:05And literally, I'm at home like probably the week after and my parents are at home as well. And I get a call off Billy and I'm like, Billy never calls me. I'm like, oh God. So I go upstairs to take it and he's like, Like, oh, listen, you know, I really didn't enjoy last week. You know, you were moaning a lot. It was negative and you just got to let it go. You know, you've got to have a better attitude on the golf course. And that's, you know, that's the difference. That's what's holding you back. Again, there's the honesty and I've got to accept that. It's not like... Did you try and fight this conversation?

41:42No, not really. I knew it was coming because I almost felt myself had been like it previous weeks. And in my head, I'm like, you know, I'll be okay. I was kind of just batting it off a little bit, but I kind of knew it was in there. And then after that, I was great. Like, you know, I really made a concerted effort on the golf course to just be a little bit calmer, getting less worked up about it. and I just felt like it really, really, really paid off. And just, obviously, I think it was like, probably, what, four or five tournaments later I won the US Open. I think it's four tournaments later.

42:22So, yeah. So that reminds me of a conversation we had with the British tennis player Johanna Konta. And she spoke about the input of a psychologist called Juan Cotto who saw that her attitude was probably what Billy was referring to. And he gave her a really simple formula where he said, struggle times resistance equals pain. So he said, so when things are not going well, when you fight it and say it's not fair and that's not good enough, that increases the pain that you feel. Whereas if you reduce the struggle, you reduce the pain and you can actually enjoy the experience. And one of the comments that I heard somebody make about you early on in your career is, you need to get better at moving on from a bad shot, a mistake.

43:12So you need to almost reduce the struggle that you go through. So what lessons and techniques could you share with us about how you've learned to move on from a mistake or a cock-up? Yeah, I think that's the thing. I wouldn't say I fully learned my lesson. I would say that me and Mike talk about this a lot. I work with a psychologist and it's kind of mainly based on chimp paradox, basically. and Mike would class me as like a C minor student, which always makes me laugh, but he's probably right. I probably don't necessarily work quite hard enough on that side of it. I think I have periods where I'm very good and I have periods where I'm not so good.

43:55I just find it hard to sit down and actually do some self-thinking about how I would be better almost and having worked with with the guy that Robbie that I work with like I definitely feel better after I talked to him more like regularly to be able to kind of just get things off my chest and talk about how you know how I'm feeling how my game's playing but at the same time in my own mind I often try and think well what is the what's the plan what's the three month six month year plan and at the end of the day like as much as I try to buy into this like it is only golf and And I've already created a great life for myself.

44:40And it's trying to look at that side of the perspective rather than just trying to beat myself up all the time. So if we use the example of Johanna, she said that she came up with ideas of, she'd write reminders on the tennis racket of, just look up at the blue sky or smile a bit more. And it was simple things to remember. I hate when people tell me smile. Yeah, of course. But for her, it was more about having that sense of perspective. Yeah. because I don't tell people in the office to smile more. You know what I mean? Like the people who come to watch golf tournaments or they tweet at you or we were laughing about on the plane this morning, like some of the other Ryder Cup lads, you know, it's like, oh, you should smile more.

45:24It's like, well, you know, we don't come into whatever industry you do and like, oh, you know, you look a bit miserable today. Like smile more. That is a bit annoying, but I get it. Me hitting it in the rough or in the water is a very tiny problem compared to it. I think there's also a random thing if you're hitting it in the rough and then got a great big beaming smile on your face. Yeah, well, yeah. Then there's a whole other issue. And I think that is my, I think my big concern that I've spoke about before to the people around me is like, I worry that if I have this come off now, I all of a sudden have this persona of like, it's all right, it's only golf.

46:01People will be like, he doesn't care anymore. Like, you know, he doesn't care. Are you protecting yourself a bit then when you have these kinds of conversations where if you become easy and comfortable with the game of golf, then you become easy and comfortable with losing. Yeah. And I wonder whether you just don't allow yourself to go there. Yeah, I mean, I had a chance to win recently and I was absolutely gutted that I didn't win. I just didn't want to talk for the I finished got back to the hotel room just didn't say a word to my both now fiance literally didn't say a word and she's like you know it's fine like you know you played so well it was closed just a couple bad blah blah and she was fantastic about it like she was so nice and my parents came in because we were going for dinner and they were you know it was so nice but at the same time in my mind I'm just thinking you don't get it like I wanted to win like I really want you know what I mean it's what is it that you really want and is it that you want to be the best is it that you want the i guess it's no longer about the check you've had a lot of those in your career and that's fantastic so is it the silverware what's that thing it's the beating everyone it is the winning it is before i won the us open i remember specifically brooks kepka winning majors and seeing him kind of do stuff in the media and various other bits and pieces and and i thought to myself a little bit.

47:27I'll be honest, you know, I wouldn't mind a little bit of that. That's quite cool and looks enjoyable. Then I won the US Open, did the Netflix and things have changed like drastically, you know, go out to dinner. I'm like, I've never had this in my life. Go out to dinner, people come up, oh, can I have a picture? Can you sign this? And it's never a problem. I don't mind. Everyone's, I've been very lucky. Everyone's so polite to me and great, but it's bizarre for me. It's really is bizarre you know never growing up with anything like that never been in that sort of limelight and now like you're halfway through your dinner and someone's coming over and it's just it's really really odd and i think it's been a little bit hard for my mum and dad because you know they've never experienced it too and they're getting things left right and center but when we watch you on that netflix documentary after you'd won the open you almost looked a little bit underwhelmed and i was reminded of when we spoke to Sir Chris Hoy and he said that winning was everything when he won the gold medal and he forgot to celebrate afterwards because that wasn't what he was focused on it was just the crossing that finish line first and that was the feelings that I got when I saw you walk into your group of family and friends you almost looked a little bit underwhelmed by the experience yeah I think I wouldn't say I was underwhelmed like you know best day of my life you know in in my opinion, it's what I'd worked for, what I grew up trying to do.

48:56And, you know, I remember being on the green and saying to like my, my dad, like, you know, we, we did it, you know? And it's like, it was just, yeah, it was just an unbelievable moment for me. But like at the same time, what comes after it, it's kind of all new and it's, it's kind of sometimes hard to get your head around that it's like this is the new norm and you you've got to you've got to accept that you know it can't just be like oh you know go away leave me alone it's you can't just be a recluse you know what i mean what did you learn in that period that would be valuable for our listeners i think the biggest thing was time um i think i was playing so well at that period of time and and it, you know, the time the game was like felt easy and I felt like I could just recreate that.

49:50And then all of a sudden it was kind of like you have a period of where you're not playing so well and it's like, well, now what? Like all of a sudden the bug came back and it's like, oh, I want to work hard and stuff like that. And I think it is, sometimes it is, you just got to give it some time to... Where did it go though? Have you worked out where that bug went? When you were studying the US Open champion. Yeah, I think, you know, I think it was just that I wanted to enjoy what I'd achieved, I think, for a longer period of time than I was allowed. Yeah. Because I won, I had two weeks off, and then I was playing two tournaments, then three weeks off, then three tournaments, and, like, the season's still going, you know, the season doesn't stop for you.

50:38It's like I still had to compete, and there was still a lot to play for. But even though there's a lot to play for, it was hard to get up for it almost because it was like, well, now I've done what I needed. I want to just chill. How old were you at the time? 27, 21? 27. You mentioned at the start you play a losing sport. You've been on tour for a number of years and you've won two major competitions. It could be two or three years till you get that feeling again. So what's the motivation? What keeps you coming back for more? To win every week, yeah. I enjoy finding any way that I can get better, listening to podcasts, trying to, you know, reading books, speaking to other people in the industry, outside the industry.

51:22For me, like, it's enjoyable to try and get better. And particularly at my age, I feel like I've got still plenty of years left of my best golf. And that's where I want to, you know, I want to get to. I want to get to world number one and win more majors. And I can't just coast for the next few years. I feel like I've got to excel still. Would you answer this question with total honesty, right? Bearing in mind, we've already established that you're one of the most humble guests we've ever had on the podcast, right? If 100 is the very greatest you can ever be and zero is the day you were when you first put up a golf club, where are you?

52:0275, probably, 80. I still feel like there's plenty in the tank. Is that exciting? yeah yeah it is um i want to have a really really big off season this this year um and like i feel this year has been a weird year for me i don't feel like it's been my best but i feel like i've made strides in certain areas and i feel like if i can kind of match those strides those gains with where i was in like may june 2022 then then that's like a you know that's almost the finished product really. So just going to take time. But you also got a text message, didn't you, after winning the Open from probably one of the greatest sportsmen of all time.

52:48Would you tell us who that was? But equally, did you get the chance to follow up and ask them how they'd sustained success? Yeah, the text was from Michael Jordan, which made me laugh because he actually texted me again after I won earlier this year. And it was a different number and I replied, oh you know thank you very much sorry who's this and he's like oh yeah yeah he's like oh sorry it's MJ I was like oh my god I feel so embarrassed you know I've not spent a lot of time with him but I'm a member of his of his club in Florida and the guy that coaches him a little bit he's learned a lot off Michael and he shared some of that with me I've not like I say I've not spent a lot of time with him but his big thing was practicing with intensity it's like every shot matters and that's one thing that we've tried to add in to practice away from tournaments it's hard rap tournaments because you've only really got the range and where i'm a member there's loads of different you know you can hit a shot here and then walk over there and and hit a shot to a different green and and it just we can create the intensity by having it if you don't complete it start again if you don't complete start again and and it's things like that that i think was so big for for him and that's what you know i've been told by by the coach at the grove darren uh darren may and and i think that is a fantastic lesson in that you know every shot has an intention and it's intense and there's a you know there's a consequence for it and i think it's it's hard to have that in golf because it's easy to just drag another ball out i'll try again but you know if you've only got five shots you've got five shots you need to hit it here the first one if you don't you're done and it's having those things like a task that has a consequence I feel like you then have that intensity and that's more like on the golf course I love that I remember reading something similar about Marcello Lippi the Italian football coach when matches went to penalty shootouts he'd ask each player what's your intention and they'd have to say something like it's going to go top right hand corner so there's no room for error then your technique's good enough you know where you're going just do it but that one question force them to have an intentionality and then just go out there and execute so do you do that on practice where you go this is going to go 150 yards just to the right yeah that's what we'll try to do I still feel sometimes I get lazy with that and that's like you know Steve tends to pull me a lot on that not having the same behaviours as I do on the golf course.

55:28It's one of those things that if we can create those behaviours in practice with the intensity, like you say, of saying, okay, this is what I'm seeing, this is what I'm going to do, then when you get on the golf course, it's a piece of cake. The aim of the game that me and Steve talk about is always making practice way harder than tournament play. So how do you do that then? I mean, there's a famous story of Tiger Woods' dad shouting abuse at him. Yeah, yeah. How do you replicate it? I mean, I'm very fortunate. Again, the Grove facility is second to none. There's all sorts of different things you can do.

56:03But, you know, we might do a challenge of, right, okay, you've got to hit it within this zone. You've got to hit a shot within this zone. Then you go and walk 20 yards over there to the green and you've got a hole up up from 10 feet. And then you go back, you hit another one in the zone. How many can you do in a row? Or what's the proximity of those shots? and you keep a record of that, right? Okay, this time can we beat that whilst doing it? Because like I keep saying, you're just not hitting seven iron after seven iron after seven iron. Every single shot is different and you need to have that pressure of it feels shit when you don't complete the challenge and we do a great one with the driver that I don't want to give away but it's something that I was really struggling on.

56:52I didn't really look into it as much as I probably should have, but two, three months ago, I was struggling to complete it. And I knew I wasn't driving it very well, and I did struggle to complete it. And then Steve came over to see me last week in New Jersey, and I did it in three attempts. Like, it was just bang, bang, bang, and I'd done it. And I was like, yeah, that's a really good sign, obviously, for me, because I feel like that's a long way different from where I was two months ago. So one of our favorite questions we like asking guests is, if you were to divide up your golf game between physical, so like the technical stuff that you've just described, and the mental side of it, what proportionality would you offer to each?

57:36Everyone's like, oh, golf's 99 % mental. I would say like 70 % physical, 30 % mental. It doesn't matter how good you are mentally. If you can't hit the ball straight, it doesn't matter. but in those final moments coming down the last five, six holes when the pressure's on, you need to be strong mentally, not to kind of just wilt. Before we move to our quick questions, I'd like to finish there about mental strength in the moment that matters because we've spoken for the last hour and a bit about preparation to play golf, right? There's one thing that you can't recreate anywhere and that is the pressure of winning a tournament with a shot, right?

58:18and I appreciate again you don't want to reveal everything but I would love it if you would share with us what you were going through mentally when you played those final few shots to win the US Open yeah I think during that time once I got to about 14 I was obviously knew I was back in it 15 made a birdie was one clear with two to play and I remember thinking to myself you know I was playing really really well like I just it was the best I've ever played you know there's no doubt about that like under the circumstances and I was just hitting exactly where I wanted everything about it was just like perfect really but I didn't feel nervous like I felt more nervous two weeks ago in Switzerland than I did when I was at the US Open and there's no there's absolutely no doubt about that and I just don't know if because in Switzerland I was probably expected to win or some of these other tournaments I've played where I've been uncontested I expected to do well the US Open I probably wasn't really expected to win I'd obviously played well and had success at that course before but I still feel like that Wills Altouros is American it's American crowd it's kind of like I was almost a bit the underdog and I was just so focused and committed on on how well I was playing I just think it was kind it just felt as cliche as it is like I was just like in the zone and and I think I look back to that a lot and compare it to some of my poor rounds and every single shot that we had I go through the round I've been through the round multiple multiple times every single one was like a hundred percent commitment there was not there was doubt on one shot and that was the tenth hole and I hit a really poor shot outside of that there was no doubt on any single shot I hit all day.

1:00:15And I think back to, it's very rare, I feel like you get rounds that happen like that because we'd have a yardage, oh, this club is perfect, and it's just like, bang. I think that was the big difference that day. And coming down the final stretch, it was like, oh, I just go, bang. It was just very like, see it, do it. And did you allow your brain to go to the young Matt, be driven course to course with his dad? Yes, yes. 100 % yeah the night before I remember speaking to Mike and I was like I almost I was in contention at the USPGA earlier in the year in May and I remember just going to bed thinking oh you know I could win the USPGA tomorrow like a major championship it was huge and I just didn't play very well and I was playing at 100 miles an hour and I look back I was playing too fast and all that and then I called Mike Saturday night before US Open final round and he was basically saying to me you've just got to accept that you think you can win that was great, that was absolutely fantastic it was never like but what if I have a bad round and it was the other way around, I was almost getting too like I can win, I can totally win this you've got to accept it but then you've just got to go out there and just play your game and see what happens and that's what I felt like I did very well And when you visualise a shot do you see it as almost like watching it on a screen so it's external to you or do you see it from your own perspective no i mean i see it i see it like i just visualize the ball kind of going up as if it's like on a playstation game you know i just like with a trail behind you know like you see on the tv that's how i see it going up and yeah so on that last shot what was that like yeah i mean on the last shot it was out the bunker and I've told the story a lot, but I was terrible out of the fairway bunkers all year.

1:02:15And that was the shot that I had. And I hit the shot and I'll just never forget because where we were aiming was like well away from where the ball actually ended up. And I just, I tried to hit the shot where I was, where I was aiming. And I just remember looking up and it was like going towards the flag and I was just like, oh my God, this and like thank god like having such a good shot there and i kind of played it so quick almost to be like well i'm ready let's just you know just get on with it rather than kind of like oh but what if this and what if that and again it goes back to the commitment it's like bang bang bang and it was and it was obviously great obviously uh we've reached the point of our quick fire questions matt first one is what are the three non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you should buy into?

1:03:08Work hard, be humble, down to earth, and be honest. I don't want anyone, you know, being around the bush or just being a yes person, really. What advice would you give to a teenage, Matt? Yeah, just work hard, work smart. I think that work hard has always been a big thing for me. I've always wanted to make sure that I'm working hard, but I think working smart is actually what I've learned more now. Don't necessarily need to hit 500 balls a day. It might be 200, but with much better intensity, you're probably going to get more out of it. So probably, yeah, work smart. Would you recommend a book or a podcast or something that you love listening to that helps you?

1:03:55Obviously, love listening to You Boys. The High Performance Podcast is great. but for me the chimp paradox by Steve Peters that was like I say I'm a C minor student according to my coach but I think it just is very good at simplifying how the mind works What's the best piece of advice you've ever received and why? I'd probably just say you know my parents just you know telling me to work hard when I was younger never been pushy about it just like If you do want to get anywhere, you've got to work for it. You can't just turn up and hope for the best. I would probably say that. If you could go back to one moment in your life, what would be the moment and why?

1:04:39Right after I've hit the shot at 18 at the US Open. Yeah, I'd love to relive that whole day again. Yeah, that would be very, very special. What's your biggest strength and your greatest weakness? biggest strength I think is always trying to pursue greatness and trying to get better just every day I'm probably thinking about something to try and help me how can I recover better, play better, think better anything really I think that's like my biggest strength is like my drive I think my biggest weakness is probably I get in my own way particularly on the golf course from maybe a mental side you know getting too worked up about I'm not playing well even off the golf course if I've not had a good week or whatever or not practice well yeah I think sometimes I can get my own way and finally your one golden rule for people that have listened to this podcast about living a high performance life yeah I've said it a lot already but it would be working hard or working smart I just think if you don't push yourself to try and get better you know I don't think you you ever gonna get to to where you want so I would have to say that thank you thanks guys privilege

1:06:07Damien Jake there's so much to pick out of that I really like the fact that he doesn't doesn't just accept golf for the way it is and preparation and training for the way it is he's looking all the time for those little things that he can do differently to get an edge over his rivals. And I think that is fantastic. Yeah. Do you remember when we interviewed Sean Wayne way back in the start of this whole series? And he had that tattoo on his arm, that kaizen, that Japanese term about continuous improvement was at the heart of it. Matt's the living embodiment of that as a golfer. And I love his flexibility as well, the way that he looks at things in sort of in very different ways and tries to find his own answer.

1:06:45You know, he doesn't seem to me as the kind of person who is going around, or when he admitted it, saying to other players, how do you do this or how do you solve that? He's looking for those answers himself. But also, he's understood the power of the team and getting the right people around him. And I think that's why he is where he is. Yeah, you know, it's who's in your locker room are those key moments of people that, like you said, humility, hard work and the willingness to try new things were the characteristics that he's recruiting for. And they're the hallmarks of what he's done in his whole career.

1:07:18you know we use that phrase with him in the conversation that good is often the enemy of great that you're making good money you're on the you're on the tour you're doing well the easy thing there is to get complacent and almost just let things tick over but his humility and willingness to keep looking for that edge has meant that he was prepared to break things and look for new ideas and that takes courage in its own right for any of us to be willing to throw it up in the air and see what comes down as a consequence and he has humility he's so humble from the upbringing his parents clearly instilled in him and i feel really excited about his future like he he's at the start almost of his journey i feel yeah yeah i think that's a really interesting point that again this this idea of being willing to go back and do the work you know and i think that what was interesting about matt is something that we don't i don't think we talk about enough on the podcast is the power of patience sometimes just accepting things have to run its course and it's going to take a while.

1:08:18I think we all want the idea of get rich quick, be successful overnight. We want to take a change and see that it's implemented right away. And I think one of the things that he was good at is saying you just need to allow it to percolate, to sometimes have time. And that was an interesting observation about he wishes he'd have taken more time after that victory before coming back refreshed and we knew to go again. I really enjoyed that chat. Thanks, mate. Yeah, it was brilliant. A real privilege. I really enjoyed that conversation with Matt. You could probably tell the way that Damien and I reflected on it.

1:08:52I would love you to do just one thing for us. Please subscribe to High Performance. Honestly, it changes the game for us. You can also watch on YouTube as well. But I think the biggest thing really is just to carry on taking the learnings from this stuff. Keep on coming to these conversations with an open mind. Lead with empathy. Lead with understanding. and just every single day, make sure that your intention is right as we've just heard from Matt Fitzpatrick. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you for another episode of High Performance very soon.

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