Max Verstappen’s Trainer Uncovers What Makes Him Unstoppable | Bradley Scanes (E367)

0:00Watch it early on the High Performance App. Available now, Roman Kemp, the broadcaster, opens up a powerful conversation on success and mental health. In those last few races, it was a battle. It was war. Crazy, right? He needs no motivation to go and win a race. Champions don't become champions at the moment they win the event, but in the hours, the weeks, the months of work they put in, you know, that's when you know you're working on the world champion. So Max is loyal as hell. But only to a point. I think he'll give Red Bull a chance. But if they don't deliver within that year, all cards are on the table.

0:38That is the voice of Bradley Skaines, the performance coach who guided Max Verstappen through his rise to become one of the most dominant forces that Formula One has ever seen. Honestly, if you're into Formula One or you're fascinated by the mindset of elite individuals like Max Verstappen, do not turn off this podcast because Bradley spent four years in Max's inner circle. He was in a place no one else on the planet was in. And he was there before Max was a world champion. He helped the guy go from prodigy to the relentless champion we know he is today. And this is the full fascinating story of how it happened.

1:14In this conversation, you'll hear how Bradley helped Max manage pressure, how Max reset his mindset to perform at his peak, and how he dealt with challenging moments when the whole world was watching. And what I really loved about this as someone who obviously loves Formula One is that we go really deep, like inside the sport. You know, Bradley reveals true secrets that I didn't think he would tell us about the obsession they had with feedback, the mind games off the grid during that title fight with Lewis Hamilton, the emotional goodbye between the two of them that left them both in tears. We also go inside that controversial Abu Dhabi 2021 finale when the pressure, the politics, the chaos in the sport hit their peak and everyone has an opinion about that moment.

1:56and I think what Bradley's about to tell you might just change your opinion. He also tells us why he believes Max Verstappen chose to stay at Red Bull rather than walk away and join Mercedes. So here we go then. This is the making of a modern day Formula One phenomenon told by someone who saw it all from the inside. Don't forget, if you can hit follow on Apple or Spotify, it changes the game for us. It means we can grow the channel, attract more listeners and then get more incredible guests like Bradley. so please hit follow as we welcome to high performance Max Verstappen's performance coach Bradley Skames

2:37Bradley welcome to high performance thank you Jake I've been dreaming of coming on this for a long while is that right? well I've been dreaming of having you on this for a long while well it's great to have you with us you're a performance coach you are a true high performer but the magic really of what you do is you get other people to become high performers as an expert in performance. What is the most high-performing environment that you have ever witnessed firsthand? Oh, I think probably Red Bull 2023. That team was functioning at an extremely high level. You know, we'd won world championships before that.

3:12I've been in Team GB winning, you know, Olympic gold medals. But that team in Singapore, when we didn't win a race, so it's the only race we didn't win that year I've never seen a group of people so disappointed it was like we'd lost the championship and yeah everyone was gutted after that you know real honour to be a part of that team striving for what we wanted was 100 % record and we were also off the back of 10 straight wins with Max as well which started back in Miami and ended in that Singapore race so it's never gone well in Singapore No Tell me your role in that team in 2023 Obviously I worked directly with Max as his performance coach, physiotherapist by trade.

3:54And my job with him is really team behind the team, you know, trying to extract the maximum performance out of him in whichever way possible. Within the greater team, I think the performance coach has a very unique role in F1. It was certainly how I kind of played it. And it was almost like the glue that kind of brought everyone together. Now, I don't want to give myself that kind of huge pat on the back, but I was always the link between driver and mechanics or driver and the media and marketing team. And, you know, he had his close engineers, but maybe the link between the driver and the other engineers.

4:28So, you know, the driver is the tip of the spear. You've got another 2 ,000 people working on that car. They all want to feel part of it. They all want to feel part of being at the track or part of being in Max's driver room. And that kind of, I think, was my real sort of contribution to the wider Red Bull team. And I think it's such a fascinating role because Max Verstappen is the kind of enigma of global sports at the moment, isn't he? People don't really know him. He does very few interviews like this. Formula One is a sport that is all about revealing as few cards as possible and keeping everything close to your chest because it gives you an edge over other people.

5:05So are you happy to reveal a few things of what actually goes on in that world for us? I think I can a little bit, yeah. So how did you first meet and end up working with Max Verstappen? Yeah, I think I got a little lucky. I was working in some very high performance environments already, you know, performance center on Harley Street, seeing some big name athletes, Team GB, had a history of elite sport for kind of 10 years behind me. But my name got put forward. You know, Max was looking for a strength conditioning coach who was also a physio. He was struggling with a few injury issues at the time.

5:40Yeah, my name got put forward. I went and met the people involved and then ended up in December 2019 flying to Barcelona to meet Max, who was doing some testing in some GT Cup cars around Circuit de Catalunya. And we just hit it off from there. I was about the third or fourth person he had actually met. And I think the biggest difference was, you know, I just got on with him, got on with his family, met his dad there, met his girlfriend. And yeah, got a call the next day. I actually said no at first. Did you? Why? I was really busy. We were preparing for the Tokyo Olympics with the British gymnastics team.

6:15I had my own clinic at the time as well in Chelmson and Essex where I live. I was working in London. You know, I was doing 60, 70 hours a week here, there and everywhere. I just thought, I don't think I can fit it in. But I kind of had this aspiration of actually I wanted to move to work with a single athlete. After thinking about it, I gave him a buzz back and the rest is history as they say. So in that first meeting with Max out in Spain, what was the first thing he told you he was looking for? It was actually based around someone who he could get on with, could be a mate with, but then could also kind of look after him.

6:54He didn't have a physio before, so it was like a strength conditioning coach prior to that. So kind of look after him from that side of things, take a real whole holistic approach. And then obviously, we shifted the focus to winning a championship. But interestingly, that first came from me. But I think I also knew I needed to make a bit of an impression, so I kind of walked in there and said, you know, I've won a world championship. How do we get you one? I think he kind of liked that. So did he tell you that his aspiration was to win the world title on that first meeting? No. No, I brought that up first.

7:24What did you say? Exactly that. You know, I've got a world championship. How do we get you one? And what did he say? I can't actually remember. I just remember us then starting to talk about how he can help me learn F1 and I can help him learn how to win, both from a physical side and then also the kind of mental side of kind of being there and done it. I remember speaking with his manager when I first arrived in Monaco in January 2020. And he had a lot of pressure on him that year. If he'd won the championship in 2020, he would have been the youngest driver ever to win a world championship. And they kind of had this kind of over-pressure goal in their mind.

8:05Red Bull. More Max's team, actually. I think Red Bull a bit as well, but they'd already done it with Seb. So it was already kind of their record. I think with Max being the youngest driver to come into F1, the youngest driver to win a race in F1, the youngest driver to do this, the youngest driver to do that, they wanted to kind of complete the set. I don't know if it played on him as much, but there was certainly pressure from, I guess, like branding it as the youngest driver. I've done all this. Well, listen, we know the way sport works. Yeah. If you're the youngest person to do something, that is very valuable financially.

8:40but it's also valuable reputationally. And I can understand why the people around him were saying become the youngest. I just wonder whether actually that is a very healthy target in terms of like, you're kind of going about it in the wrong way. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think it put a little bit too much pressure on the end target. And how did that manifest itself in the way he was at that time, early 2020? I think probably more in the years before that, where you saw quite a few instances with Max, both on the track and off the track, both in press conferences and confrontations with drivers.

9:13And, you know, I hope when I kind of look back on my time with him, that kind of calming influence, that more measured approach that we bought to Max kind of exists there. And I said initially, you know, I don't know F1. I know a lot of sensors on the car, but take those things out of the equation. I don't care what the car looks like right now. I would say we probably can't win it in year one. You know, give me a year. Let me get a layer of land. We can then see what we're doing in year two.

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11:27I wonder how he reacted to that, because you've been brought in as his performance coach. To then turn around and say, I don't think you're going to win it this season, is kind of a brave thing for you to say. How was his reaction? I think he liked it because it took a bit of the pressure away. And it also kind of, you know, it said, look, we're going to win it at some point. We don't really care when, but let's make sure we win it at some point and build it in the right way. Again, I think he liked that. He's a winner at the end of the day. And actually having someone alongside him that didn't care when he wins as well, just that we are going to try and win it, was the main thing.

12:03and it just removed that time pressure. It sounds like from what you're saying, and you've worked not just with Max Verstappen, but so many athletes across so many different sports, that there's almost this idea that you can want to win too much. Is that fair? Yeah, I think so. And I think we taught each other that as well. You know, you listen to Max talk now and he's won four world championships. The talk will be, can he match Lewis? Can he match Michael? And what he kind of transmits into the media is, you know I've won four I'm good I'm happy like I'm a world champion and it doesn't necessarily matter to him whether he wins more now I say that with a caveat of course it's going to matter right but if he finishes his career now in four world championships he'll be happy he won't have any regret that he didn't win seven or eight is he the kind of guy that would love to of course wouldn't anyone yes but look Max is a is a relentless winner when I first started We had a table football on his balcony, dartboard in his apartment.

13:06This is before I got all loved up. Could I ever beat him? No. Because his pure focus was just to beat me, but not just beat me, like beat me really well. Took me three years to beat him at FIFA. You're obviously bad at FIFA. Oh, he's very good at FIFA. Yeah, I thought I was okay, but yeah, I'm probably on the worst side of FIFA. But darts, I was pretty good at darts. And whenever it got close, he could flick a switch even in even in a friendly darts game I love it see I'm so interested in kind of the behaviours that you were seeing on the track in the gym in the garage in the build up to race weekends how his sort of brain would have switched as race time became closer that made you think hold on this guy is special you said that Red Bull in 2023 was the most remarkable high performance environment when was the moment that you saw Max do something and you thought oh this guy is different I think F1 in general kind of gave that but then of course max as well and what i've seen from all the world championship champions i've worked with is this kind of flexibility and adaptability to always perform in the chaos always perform the same when you know everything's just going on around you um and i started seeing it in in max quite early on with like when we'd just be working out and he doesn't like to work out you know he He doesn't like the training element.

14:26I worry for him after F1 is over. But it's common knowledge that he hates working out. But when we got into a workout, it was like, okay, I'm in. And I'm all in. And we're going to get the best out of this workout in the most efficient time that we can. And then I started to see that at track as well. He could be messing around, playing on the phone, playing a bit of football, keepy-uppy, whatever. and then as soon as he got into engineering it's like bang on it data racing lines you know stuff that i haven't even heard other drivers talk about on certain feedback and and stuff there and then the same would come you know when you're getting onto track you know there'll be a microphone in his face just as he's getting into the car just as he's pulling his helmet in could be chucking it down with rain and he'll go out and perform exactly the same and it's a real like flick of the switch and you hear him on the radio now you know he's watching the TV screens seeing what's going on in the race he's passing the pit wall here's the engine of the Ferrari and asks has the Ferrari just boxed like that's how in tune he is with what is going on at that racetrack Is that something natural or is that a learned ability?

15:42I think a bit of both but you know I'd actually say mostly with him it's probably learned you listen to some of the stories of his past you know, growing up with his father, you know, his dad would send Max out in his go-kart. He would change something on the go-kart and he'd give Max two laps to come back in and tell him what he'd changed. And you see that now. He'll drive out in the Red Bull. He'll come back in. He'll be like, have you changed something on the left front? And it'll be the smallest thing that probably had no impact on performance, but he'll know. and then it comes as well you know physical fitness practicing you you know your mental efficiency when it comes to visualization and race days and and those sort of things the more you do all that the fitter you are the more capacity you're then going to have in the car when you know comes time to make decisions under pressure or fatigue kicks in and those things so would you talk us through some of those mental things and let's go to visualization first of all what would be the process that you would go through with max ahead of a weekend or ahead of a race yeah Max did a lot of his prior to a race weekend he's very big on his simulator driving and you'll see drivers now that they'll prepare they'll sit in a chair before they go out into the race or a quali close their eyes you know practice each corner there's a great video of George Russell actually going through his visualisation at Silverstone he's talking himself through the corners down the straights and then there's a moment where I look up at the flag see the direction of the wind and I'm like that is good visualization you know the more senses the more emotions you can bring in the better it is and visualization works so well because the brain can't tell between your vivid imagination and the reality so you're basically getting perfect practice which is you know if anyone wants to practice perfectly that's the ideal situation Max is a little bit more kind of of that new generation of simulator driver where they're getting so many virtual laps of a track that But they're doing some real high-level visualization stuff.

17:44So I think a lot of this gets missed when people talk about Max. And he often gets branded as natural talent. And this has been years and years and years of hard work. And there's a reason why he goes out in FP1 and sets purple after purple after purple whilst other drivers set up. It's because he's been practicing the track hours and hours in the week leading up. Saudi Arabia, the first year we went there, is the best example of that. No one could get a handle on that circuit for the entire FB1. And Max just kept going purple, purple, purple. And that's a difficult track as well. So Red Bull didn't even have the simulator version of the track in their simulator.

18:21And Max had managed to find someone online to build out what the track looked like, like a spec to put on his own simulator. No way. So he could practice the track. So he was able to practice the Saudi track on something that no one else had access to. Yeah. That is brilliant. But off his own back, off his own. And this is the sort of work ethic and, you know, the differences that make champions, right? This is 2021. We're in a title fight. Every little bit matters. And ultimately, we didn't win Saudi for a number of reasons. But, you know, you could see the pace that he set first off. And actually, his qualifying lap before he pinged the wall would have probably gone down as one of the greatest ever.

19:01Talk me through that moment from your perspective. Just head in hat. and again this is like how clever he was in that moment because he could have carried on the lap but he pulled the car over because he didn't want it to cause any more damage like we were already starting I think P3 or something from his previous lap which he knew and obviously if he'd finished the lap he could have damaged the car further which then would have impacted the race so he's on this absolute flying lap his P1 for sure pings the the wall and then just pulls it over and stops on track. We're like, what's happened? What's going on?

19:41But in his mind, he's like, well, I've got to get points tomorrow because we're one race away from winning the world championship. And it just shows the kind of mental capacity. But yeah, for me, head in hands. Oh, no. What's going to happen with the world championship? Isn't it interesting, though? You're his performance coach. You know so much about psychology and how to get the best out of yourself. Yet in that moment, even you're head in hands. and he's the one thinking pragmatically about how does this impact tomorrow? What's the best thing I can do right now in this moment? And I sometimes feel like having met Max a few times and loved his company, right?

20:14You know, shared some gin and tonics with him and I don't think people see that side of him. And I found the same with Sebastian Vettel when I worked with him. People had an opinion that he was robotic, that he was rude, that he wasn't kind. The total opposite. And I do get the same sense with Max Verstappen and I kind of, I wanted to have this conversation because I want the world to know a little bit more about him, right? you know and hopefully one day he'll feel able to tell the world how he's done what he's done but I think it's so important that we have these kinds of open conversations about the way that these people think the way that these people operate and those are the moments I think where he's not even really processing necessarily right it's kind of a natural ability to just deal with the hard moments I guess yeah for sure and I don't think even that's dealing with it that is his just natural ability on track to extract everything out of it you know because afterwards he's obviously disappointed and he's reacting emotionally after the fact.

21:07But, you know, he's been in the sport for a long time. He knows that, especially from his early days, that nowadays emotions need to be kept in check until you kind of get behind closed doors a little bit more. And, you know, the kind of world we live in these days, you've got to be a bit careful. But yeah, I think in that moment, he's such that relentless winner that he's only thinking about how do I win tomorrow? And I need a car that's going to finish the race. And of course, this was a race in the midst of this 2021 season. Yeah. And that's your instant reaction. When I talk about 2021 and you were in the heart of the battle, standing alongside Max Verstappen, what do you think about that?

21:522021 is probably the best experience I've ever had. I was front row first hand seat watching two greats of the sport go at it and these weren't two greats of the sport these two were fighting 20 seconds up the road from everybody else but they were one second between them the entire time and some of those races where you kind of you thought hang on a minute we're going to win the championship and it's like oh no back against the ropes now and we didn't win four of the last five we were struggling and whatever happened happened in Abu Dhabi but But both drivers for sure deserve to win that title that year.

22:30Obviously, I'm biased and we deserved it more. But it was a lot of pressure. It was intense. You could cut the tension with a knife in the paddock. I remember Brazil, so three races from the end, were obviously next to each other in the garages, next to each other in the hospitality. The way the paddock's laid out a little bit, you're having to walk past each other, walk past each other's hospitality as well. and no one would even look at each other. You know, you could cut like Red Bull Mercedes. No one would look at each other. No one would talk to each other. You could cut the tension with a knife.

23:07And like nowadays, you'd stop and talk to your other half from Mercedes or guys you knew there. But in those last few races, it was a battle. It was war. And were there mind games? Were there things happening outside of the car to just ramp up the tension even further? Yeah, absolutely. Brazil is a good example where, I don't know if you remember, but Max went behind the Mercedes rear wing and was giving it a good feel. That was measured. He knew he was going to get 50k fine and no impact on track. And had you spoken about it beforehand? Not me personally, but for sure. Within the team, it was discussed.

23:47And it was a way to just ramp up the tension in the Mercedes garage? Yeah, even if nothing happened, and I think there was a change. So for the last two races, they couldn't run that particular wing. So that was helpful in its own sense, because they absolutely ran away with that Brazil race. But even if nothing happened, that would have just shifted the focus, put a little bit of pressure in the media on them. Obviously, the games between Toto and Christian were always clear to see in the media. But then back doors or backstage, as it were, cool down rooms after between Max and Lewis or even Angela would kind of try and have a little go as well.

24:28What sort of things? Do you know what? One of the funniest things is just time it would take to get ready. So when I first started working with Max and you know top three going to the cool down room after the race or after qualifying there's like a little area where you go and Lewis would always take a long time to get ready. He would want to change fully out of his kit, you know, get his hair done, put like his own clothes on, whereas Max would just, you know, either change his suit or just go as he is to press conference. And then, as it kind of progressed, we started changing every part of the kit.

25:06And as it progressed again, you could see just Max just taking his time. So you started getting Max to change everything as well? Yes, we started changing So you weren't hanging around waiting for Lewis? Yeah, Yeah, and also just to fill the time as well. Yeah, exactly. So we weren't waiting around. But the flip was, you could start to see, you know, Max really started to take his time. So then Lewis had to wait for him. But you come from a performance environment where if it doesn't make the boat go faster, like, we don't do it, right? Yeah. So why was that helpful for Max from a psychological perspective?

25:40Or maybe why was that damaging to Lewis Hamilton from a psychological perspective to try and play those games? just to make them wait. You know, it's that whole get out after halftime and stand by the... Like a power trip thing. Yeah, yeah, exactly that. Just to say, actually, you know, we're not waiting for you anymore. The baton is being passed and we're taking over from here. Because in 2021, I'm not sure whether you felt your role was to wind Max up as much as possible to feel the full force of this rivalry or whether you felt your job was the total opposite and to kind of pour water on the fire as such.

26:15I think it ebbed and flowed as the season went. There were moments when we needed to get up for it. Brazil, for example, we knew we couldn't win that race. And it would take an absolute miracle to win that race. Lewis was 20 seconds up the road. So I think they're not necessarily winding up, but just making sure our focus wasn't getting points. And I think that was probably our biggest shift with Max. 2018, 2019, 2020, his mentality was, I'm on the grid. I'm going to win this race. I want to win every single race. Every time I go out there, I want to win. In 2021, we had to be clever because if going for a race win meant that we came P7th or we DNF'd, we're not going to win our championship.

27:03We have to finish second. If Lewis is finishing first, we have to finish second. That was a huge mindset shift going into a race and saying, we're not going to be P1 today. how do you achieve that mindset shift with someone who has such a desire for victory make the desire for victory in the world championship and just just reconceptualize it a little bit reframe it you know this isn't about winning races anymore you've won races you don't need more race wins you're going to win many more races in your career but this is our chance to win a world championship we don't know if it's going to come again because again so much does actually depend on the car now yeah Max will be able to move wherever he wants to move to, depending on where the best team is.

27:45But you don't know whether you're going to get a chance to win a world championship in F1. So we had to take that opportunity. And we could only take that opportunity by making sure we finished every race and making sure we finished every race in P2. And we had to have that mindset on tracks where we knew we weren't the quickest to not try something and ping it into the wall. And how much of a benefit to Lewis was it that he was a multiple world champion at this point, do you think, and that Max was feeding this out for the first time? I think there are pros and cons to it, actually, because, and again, Max will be a bit criticized for some of his aggressive drive in that year.

28:23We actually didn't have the quickest car. We were a couple of attempts slower than Mercedes for most of the year. There were some tracks where we were better, but the majority of the time, we weren't. So he did have to get his elbows out a little bit. Lewis also, like, Lewis knew how to come second. That's in the most positive way, because he knew how to win world championships. And that was the big difference for us. You know, there was times when 2020, 21, you know, Max would probably go into a corner thinking, well, I'm going to take this corner or I'm probably going to end up crashing out.

28:57And it didn't matter. But in 2021, it did. But then that also played in our favor because Lewis didn't know what he wanted to do. So Lewis knew actually in some corner, And Lewis backed out because he wasn't sure whether… Max was going to go for it. Pretty much, yeah. And, you know, we knew we had to come second, so he wasn't going for it. Yeah. But we played up to that because we had to get track position. So that perception that Lewis had that Max was unpredictable actually proved beneficial at times because it altered the way that Lewis was behaving. Yeah, for sure. And you see that across, you know, some of the greatest athletes have created those sort of personas.

29:38You know, Tyson Fury turning up in a Batman costume to Klitschko in Germany. You read his book, you know, it was all planned, all premeditated. A lot of that was also from our side as well, because we had to do something to shift the needle towards us. And when you're having these conversations about shifting the needle towards the Verstappen camp and away from the Hamilton camp, is Max part of those conversations? or do you have conversations with his team around him and then kind of say that this is what we think? Yeah, a bit of both. There's so many kind of multiple kind of micro camps with an NF1 team.

30:14You know, you've got 100 staff traveling. You've got 1 ,000 to 2 ,000 people back in the factory working on the car. So, you know, it might be me and his engineer sitting down talking about why is Max in a bit of a mood this weekend? It's like, oh, you know, we're traveling an hour from the hotel we're not sleeping very well jet lag you know all those different things but so you might be having a conversation there engineer and max might be having a conversation about the race over there you've got the mechanics as well it goes back to what I was saying before like part of my role was to be that kind of go between making sure everyone felt part of the team if that makes sense because the driver is the face of it right everyone for want of a better word wants a piece of the driver even within the within the team And there also have to be moments, I guess, even when times are tough, where you have to say to Max, like, just stop with this.

31:06Like, don't be grumpy because it does affect the engineers. Don't be snappy and short with people because it does impact people who can make your car go faster. And if they're in a strange mood, it might have a bad outcome. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Did that happen? Yeah, for sure. There's moments where you kind of say, look, maybe after he's crashed or caused some damage or maybe, yeah, it's just been, you know, a real tough few races. and it's a case of, you know, should we head to the garage and just work our way around the boys or let's go to FB1 10 minutes early just so you can stand in there and chat to the mechanics and it can get quite a distance between the two.

31:41They're in different areas within the paddock, within the garage and sometimes it can be a case of, you know, we walk into the garage, we get in the car, we go out, we get out of the car and we go back to the driver's room. So it's really, really important to make everyone feel connected, part of the team. Simple things like, I would never say no to any of the mechanics, any of the engineers who said, look, can you just get Max to sign this for me? You know, I'd get him to do every single one of them because it's so important for the rest of the team to feel like they're part of the team. What was the lowest point in 2021 that you had to help Max through?

32:16Probably after Saudi. We changed everything. So we hadn't won for four races in a row. So we're going four races without a win. Lewis well we're back equal on points with neck and neck on points going into into the last race and Saturday was a bit of a blow up in that obviously it was a new track it was super super hot as well like the everyone was getting really impacted by the heat and the humidity there was three red flags there was three incidences between Max and Lewis coming together we'd gone into the cool down room after that race so Lewis B1 us B2 and I remember so Angela, who was Lewis's performance coach, still is.

32:58Me and her are very good friends now. We've worked together over the last year or so. I remember her like, not shouting, but like forcefully saying something towards me and Max, like, are you going to get someone killed out there or something like that? And then them two just like went off into a different room, got changed and we were just kind of left. I can't remember who was P3, but they were just kind of sitting there thinking, what is going on here? I'd have to look back. and so after that race it was a case of okay we need to calm everything down so we were actually due to flight home and then fly back out to Abu Dhabi because it's a six hours flight and we said no let's stay on the time zone let's go over to Dubai let's chill for a couple of days take a day off let's get in the gym just do a bit of light training let's just get ourselves ready and prep for Abu Dhabi and you know initially Max didn't want to do that he wanted to get home spend time with friends and family preparing that way because that is the way he really kind of unloads.

33:54But in terms of performance, it was like, no, we're not going to fly six hours through the night, then to fly back. So he took a little bit of persuading on that, but we needed to just to re-center and get ourselves ready for what was to be the final race of the season. I mean, I remember at this point the amount of energy and conversation and I worked in Formula One in a time where it sometimes felt like the world didn't care. And you're like, hey, there's a race happening over here. I remember towards the end of that 2021 season, it felt like every single person on the planet had an opinion of Lewis and Max.

34:29Yeah. And I know it's impossible for him to not see that stuff, right? So how does he see that stuff and you help him to deal with what he is seeing? Yeah, he was always very good at blocking that stuff out, but you definitely saw it in that period of time. Max is the pitcher of calmness before a race. You know, he can chat to anyone, laugh and joke to anyone. And before Abu Dhabi, you know, I remember speaking to his manager and saying, okay, like way before we would normally, like 10 minutes before a race, we cleared a room, we start getting ready, or 10 minutes before we go out. There, I remember speaking to his manager and saying, look, we need to get everyone just gone.

35:11We're talking like 30, 45 minutes before, so way, way before we'd normally do. So I spoke to his girlfriend Kelly at the time and just said, look go and see him now because we're going to start getting ready for for the race start to clear the room we just sat down we said look whatever happens happens we've done everything that we can to to get to this point um it's just any other race let's warm up in the same way that we would normally warm up let's prepare in the same way we normally prepare and go about it that way but yeah certainly it's the first time i ever saw him nervous and how did that manifest itself it made me more hyper-focused it did it?

35:48yeah like I was I was nervous like I was nervous the entire weekend but it was when I I couldn't show it because I needed to be man that bit of normality but you can't be saying to him this is like every other race and then you acting like it's not yeah exactly and what what were you seeing from him where you're like okay you're you're nervous now he was quiet um you know there was a lot of breathing going on so he always focused on certain breathing techniques to calm him if his heart rate ever did get high or he started to feel pressure just slower breaths yeah like a box breathing sort of technique so for those that don't know four in hold it for four four out hold it for four yeah repeat five or six times and you know it's proven to reduce heart rate it was first bought in by Navy SEALs but he would only ever use it in the car you know if Austin was a good example he talks freely about that where he was sick and he talks about almost like blacking out with like 10 laps to go Lewis right behind him and he was able to use that to kind of bring his heart rate down and kind of re-center and re-focus and go on and win the race and I remember seeing him kind of on the on our physio bed starting to do it and I think this is very different because it's the first time he hadn't done it in the car yeah for me anyway in our time together and kind of that's when I really flicked into you know okay this is just we treat this like any other weekend like this is any other weekend we're going to warm up the same you're going to eat the same there's nothing different nothing different and yeah he was able to walk into the garage and be his normal self again but even on the grid I remember the conversation with his engineer GP it finished earlier than normal right and I remember Max stepping in and standing by the car in a completely different position to where we'd normally stand in I remember thinking I gotta get him over here again like start to just do our normal stuff so you're spotting all these tiny little kind of almost micro behaviours that are telling you that something something's not perfect here yeah absolutely and I think you know I've always got a lot of questions of you know what mental techniques do you use or how did you train to do this and a lot of the time it's not it's those small 1 % things that make the huge difference that can either put you off your game or allow you to continue down the same path and yeah it was just it was an abnormal thing that he was by the car we're normally off to the side getting ready it's like come on mate let's come back over here Max come over here everything's normal obviously it wasn't normal though was it because by the end of that day he was Formula 1 world champion Before we talk about the moment that you spoke to him after the race, what were you going through during the race particularly?

38:41And I'll put the caveat there now. It's not Red Bull's responsibility. It's not your responsibility. What happened with Michael Massey and the decisions, those were the decisions that were made. Yeah. But I just get this sort of like image in my head of you, like right in the center of something going on that the whole world is seeing. And you've got that very, very slight detachment because you're not Max and you're not Lewis. It's an absolute privilege to be in that position. Yeah. so what was the emotion during the race particularly at that kind of controversial finish from your perspective well I thought we weren't going to win I thought all the way up to maybe maybe like 20 laps in that we were going to win it like I was this is us like we've always gone well around Abu Dhabi won it the year before I was 100 % sure we were going to win and then that helped for sure in the way that I could be with Max and you know this is us mate like just provide the calmness provide the confidence and then we get into the race oh no they're quick they're ahead we just haven't got the pace was Max still delivering to his normal level yeah for sure there was no drop off there which it gets crazy right it's you know that's when you know you're working with a world champion for sure whether it's going to be that year the year after it was going to come at some point I think it just it took just that little a bit of clearance of noise so that he could really focus in and become the person that he is now and the maturity that he's got now.

40:12But yeah, during the race, I think, you know, we're not going to win. And obviously everything unfolds. And from the moment they restart, I remember the overtake, Max's overtake on Lewis, turn five. I remember Lewis trying to come back. That's like, so we overtake, everyone's cheering, jumping in the garage. We're all together now. but I'm there with the mechanics that's where I kind of kind of sit then Lewis comes out and he's like oh no then we can see that he's not getting it we celebrate again from that moment to the moment I see Max I don't remember I don't remember a thing wow there's pictures of me in the pit lane celebrating with people high-fiving going over to GP I don't remember the rest of it I went over to Christian I remember shaking Christian's hand and then I saw Max and that was it what were the first words that you two exchanged changed yeah and do you know what i i'm really lucky because it was still off the back of covid times the physios were allowed in the uh in park for me right so there's a stunning picture i've got it off my wall stunning picture of me and max like he's jumped into my arms i picked him up and there's just no one else around everyone's behind the barriers but yeah i just remember thinking like celebrating with him and then being very aware that it was just me and him and pointed over to where Kelly and his family were and sent him over that way and sent him over to the team.

41:38Wow. And when was the first time that you were able to have a genuine conversation about the fact that you'd gone on this journey back in 2019, met him in Spain, and here you are years later, and between you, you've managed to turn him into an F1 world champion? January 22, when we came back for pre-season. so I so straight into the cool down room after the race but there's people coming and going you know celebrations congratulations all of that and then we went out after and promptly celebrated and then I got a flight home like well straight from the party to go home I just had my little girl so it was it was super nice for me to get home and celebrate there as well and then it wasn't until we got back in January 22 that we were really able to just kind of sit down and say wow like what happened and agreed to do it again is that right agreed to do it again we sat there and we said well should we do it again literally those words should we go again and then yeah we just got to it and it wasn't forgotten obviously it's so important first world championship but very rarely after that did we talk about it again it was all about you know what we wanted to do next isn't that interesting as well that the whole world keeps talking about 2021 yeah in max's mind by january 22 it was done and he was yeah on for the next one can we talk about goal setting and target setting yeah was that something that you and max did for each season or each race or each kind of block of his career how did that work yeah for sure um we did for every season we did for kind of micro times within in the year as well and and sometimes for each race as well you know especially when it got to like 2023 when you know we were super quick the team was functioning on the highest level max was functioning on the highest level and you know we had certain goals around certain races of you know actually how much could maybe we win by or you know could we do this you know can we get a grand slam this weekend you know get back in and set the fastest lap as well all these little bits were is that because normally winning a race is the biggest thing you can achieve but actually you were so dominant and so good.

43:54Were you having to look for other things to kind of drive the motivation for him maybe? Yeah, I don't think so much motivation. I think more just to, he needs no motivation to go and win a race. He needs no motivation to go and win a bit of table football against me. But I think just to, for want of a better word, like just keep the interest, keep the enjoyment, keep the fun element to it so that it didn't become so processional. and I think you might agree like when I look at some championships you know of the past you know people talk about F1 becoming boring and you know same person winning all the time I don't think we really had that with Max and Red Bull you know some might tell me different obviously I'm biased because I was in the moment and we were enjoying winning every week but it felt like it was still a lot of fun it felt like you know we still bought a bit of fun and a bit of enjoyment to each race But yeah, so we had quotes for every year.

44:53Can you remember them? Yeah, so our first, I'd be pretty bad at my job if I didn't remember. Yeah, they were quite important, actually. It was kind of like the moniker of, you know, what we wanted to do that year. So the first year we worked together, 2021 was just, what does it take to win a world championship? 2020, yeah. 2020, yes, 2020. So what does it take to win a world championship? We just wanted to learn, grow together, get to know each other better. I needed to learn F1. he obviously wanted to learn the physical mental stuff that you know and how much would he watch Lewis Hamilton for example who was winning the world title around that time like everything would he yeah not just Lewis everyone Friday Saturdays he'd be watching all the onboards of all the drivers seeing what lines they're taking seeing if anything's different everything Max famously never did a track walk he never needed to because he'd done so many virtual laps and watched so many onboards you know he would arrive at a race with knowledge that Red Bull didn't even have of changes to the track or whatever there.

45:55And again, a lot of that doesn't get talked about in relation to Max. Again, probably because it's not known. He hasn't talked about it himself. No one has really talked about it. But the amount of work that he puts in and has put in over the years to get to this point, it's definitely not just a natural talent. Do you know, I think part of that is because people don't know him very well, right? it's hard to really like people or relate to people that you don't know so therefore I don't think people feel the same about Max as they feel about some other F1 drivers therefore it's easier for them to say well it's only natural talent, it's only the car than to actually give him the credit that I think he deserves and that's why this is such a great conversation because I want people to understand more about Max Verstappen I want them to realise that we are watching greatness because in years to come we will talk about him in the same realms as the Lewis's and the Ernst Senna's and the Michael Schumacher's and the greats of Formula 1 for sure.

46:48So I love that he's watching other drivers doing all the onboards. But I also like the fact that he doesn't seem, and correct me if I'm wrong, to do things if he doesn't see the value in it. Like he didn't go to the recent F1 movie and said, well, I'm going home to see my kid. I might go and watch it if I want to, but I'm not going to be forced. And it's the same with the track walks. I wonder if a lot of drivers do it because everyone else does, so I will. Yeah, probably a big part of that. I also know as well, like track walks are oftentimes times when engineers or strategists would also just get time with the driver as well, away from all the noise.

47:20So it can be super important for that as well. But yeah, you know, GP and Max have a very good relationship. They can talk outside of that. So yeah, no, I think you're right. I certainly saw it in the workouts and his training. And it's great because, and again, thumbs up Max. Like he always wanted to know why we're doing something. Right. so you know me on my toes as well in terms of you know creating what sort of the best thing was for him did he ever take shortcuts he wouldn't take shortcuts he'd want to know how we could take shortcuts in terms of still being optimal still achieving exactly what we wanted to but not having to you know do a two hour workout when we can do it in 45 minutes and still achieve the same goal so yeah not shortcuts was always willing to put the work in but how can we be more efficient how can we be better and also So, you know, that pushed me to be better as well in terms of, okay, how can we maximize our time?

48:14And especially when like pre-season started getting shorter or more like media marketing stuff in where you had to go off to events or, you know, fly to New York for a car launch in the middle of pre-season, which, you know, is a performance coach's nightmare. But again, it pushes you to be better in, you know, how can we get ourselves race fit and ready to go? Really good. So we were talking about the kind of mantras or the targets for each season. So the first season was? Yeah, so first season, how do we become a world championship? What does it take? Second was, it was, I don't remember it.

48:53So it was about consistency. So repeating it week in, week out is what separates the good, the great, and the special. Is that what you said? Yeah. We had it on our wall. so repeating each result week in week out is what separates the good the great and the special so we had a picture of our race winning Abu Dhabi 2020 I think he'd won two races in every season in like the last three or four seasons but was so inconsistent with results you know DNFs P7 P10 P1 and we just wanted to develop that consistency so repeating the result over and over again week in week out is what separates the good, the great, and the special.

49:35And that was everything we got out of 2021. You know, we have to get points. So it's P1 or P2. We can't have anything else. Obviously, there was some other results there. Again, good example of that would be Budapest that year. He's driving around with half the floor and manages to come, I think, P10 or P9. And we were almost sure, because he put his head down. You know, you could tell he was unhappy, but he put his head down, I'm grinding that result out. And me and GP were 100 % sure that at one point it was going to be the World Championship winning point. We were so hoping it was going to be a one-point win.

50:14It was seven or eight. Because then you could have said to him, that's why you still graft to finish. Yeah, exactly. So yeah. And then, so the third year was champions don't become champions in the moment. They win the event. But in the hours, the weeks, the months of work they put in. So it was, we'd won the World Championship. so it was about remembering what got us there and repeating that again. And how did you determine what these were going to be? I would bring them. I'd bring them in January of that year. Kind of become a little thing. And then if you liked it then we'd stick it on a poster and we'd take it everywhere.

50:51I think I've still got the 2021. Have you? Yeah. What I like about this one, just say this one again for 22. So 22 was champions don't become champions in the moment they win the event, but in the years, the months, the hours, the minutes that it takes to get there. And was the motivation for that, because you were now aware he was a world champion, that he had to still have a fire, you know, he still had to have a fire inside him. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I think, yeah, and probably my experience came from like other sports where I've seen it not be, you know, the same unrelenting desire to win or just getting comfortable with him.

51:27You know, it wasn't so much an issue, but it was still a nice mantra to have in the fact of we're not going to rest on our laurels here we're going to keep winning I just think it's important to win back-to-back titles because everyone wants to come for you after you become a world champion so yeah, that was a nice one for us to have And when did you stop working with Max? End of 23 Okay, so you were there in 23 when obviously it was as you said at the start of the conversation the ultimate what I thought was interesting about that season is Checo Perez wins two of the first four races, doesn't he?

52:01That 23 season. I'm very interested in what that does for Max's mental resolve or his mindset early in that season. We were feeling the pressure a little bit, actually, because the car was a little bit more set up to like Checo's liking. We'd come off of, it was like a very busy pre-season. So we hadn't had the best preparation leading into the season. We were kind of on the limit of hitting some of our fitness targets because we'd been flying here, there and everywhere. And the season had started earlier as well. It started like right at the beginning of March, which again was unusual. So it'd been cut to, I think, six weeks pre-season, which we only got four clear weeks.

52:43And then we were ill at the start of the year. So we had like a bad flu. Both of you? No, just Max. I love how you say we. We had a bad flu. You're so intertwined at that point. Guys, we've got the flu. yeah and it becomes that way you spend so much time together you're probably seeing more of Max at this point than your partner and your kid I imagine yeah I mean I was famously quoting on another podcast back saying my wife who is now my ex-wife which probably says a little bit there I see Max more than I see my wife but yeah it is the case in F1 sometimes you know I'm basically living in Monaco and then I'm flying to races and And probably through that period, I knew I'd get home on Monday to see my kids.

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55:42So how does this sort of spin Max's head then when he's having to do too much media stuff? You're saying to him, look, your physical targets aren't where they need to be. He's got a flu and Checo's winning races. yeah you can see the pressure building a little bit what do you see frustration not just in the car but also like just with other people around the team frustration with you know especially like the media and marketing stuff you know he's becoming very no I'm not doing that or you know which is very unlike Max you know he doesn't want to do stuff but he will always be very like polite with it and do it to the absolute very best that he that he can do but even like with engineers, mechanics just a bit more kind of off, a bit more recluse within the driver's room and then yeah, we got to Miami which was race 5 and then we had a terrible qualifying, it's like P10 or P11 with Checo on pole but then that was the turning point of the season P11 to P1 and that was the start of a 10 race winning streak which is the record.

56:55I think it was the gap of the quali was what just really refocused the whole mentality. You know, it was a almost siege mentality type thing. I'm thinking Mourinho and Chelsea now but it was almost like well, he's on P1. I'm not going to let him win this race. He's already won too many. so were there times in his career where stopping other people winning races became the motivation yeah rather than I'm going to win it's I'm going to stop him yeah not by any means other than winning himself but yeah for sure wow yeah Checo and his teammate being one obviously in F1 you're measured against your teammates so they actually create that environment of you've got to beat your you've got to beat your teammate you've got to stop him winning a race by winning yourself and then some of the other rivalries he developed over the course of F1.

57:53So who do you look at as his rivals? Because obviously Lewis has won because they shared that title battle. His teammate always? Teammate always, yeah. Although some would argue not so much of a rival these days. Checo did a very good job. He was a very integral part of what we were able to achieve. Well, let's give Checo a bit of credit then. Why was Checo such an integral part of Max's success? At times he couldn't accept that he wasn't going to win a world championship, but certainly in that 2021, you know, embraced coming second, basically, or being that second driver. And I think that's super important in that Red Bull seat.

58:30You get the chance to win races. You're not probably going to beat Max Verstappen. You know, unless everything is going to go into your favor. And I guess it's super hard because you've got to back yourself as an F1 driver, right? You're one of 20 in the world. but I think also coming into that team Checo was at his very best when he could just say you know what I'm going to win a couple of races this year and I'm going to help this guy win the world championship and then he was able to then extract the best out of him and that's when he became dangerous I still struggle why like at the last race Liam Lawson outqualified Max right yet couldn't live in the same team as him Yuki Tsunoda looked great in the sister team he can't live with Max Verstappen you know we're talking woeful qualifying in that Red Bull at the moment for him what as someone who has got such a unique perspective on this why is the second seat at Red Bull such a difficult seat to deliver in yeah I think one you the pressure comes with being a top team when you know and no disrespect to anybody but whilst they're racing at the sister team but the pressure's off you know your goal is to get to that Red Bull seat.

59:48And if you could score some points in that team, great. But if not, it also doesn't really matter. You've just got to go out there and show that you can do your best and anything else is kind of a bonus. And as soon as you get in a Red Bull seat, you're expected to deliver straight away. And you're expected to be within three temps of Max Verstappen, who at times is six temps ahead of everybody in the entire field. And then obviously differences in cars and stuff there as well. But I think it'll be the pressure element more than anything. Right. And the fact the car is so tuned into the way Max likes to drive.

1:00:27Is there an argument in that? Yeah, I think so. You don't sound convinced. Yeah, every driver gets a chance to set up the car in the way, you know, fundamentally. Yeah. Every driver still gets to set up the car in the way that they want it to drive. You know, balance, rear, front, however that might be. they work with their engineers to extract the best out of the car for them. You know, Lewis isn't setting it up the same as Charles. They'll set it up in the way that they want to be able to drive. And when did you stop working with Max? So end of 23, so after the third World Championship. And was that a hard thing to do?

1:01:03It was cool, was it you decided or he decided? Yeah, I decided. So my son had been born and Effie, my eldest, was due to go to school. while she goes to school this year. So I just wanted to have a year at home, spend some more time with them. Like I said, I was only getting home on Mondays, separated from my wife, divorced now. So being able to get those moments of time was tricky. So it was a case of, you know, it's been great, but I need to just take a year out and spend some time at home. But yeah, it was hard. It took me ages to tell him. Really? I decided in summer break that I'm going to do this so that's what August yeah we're still fighting for the world championship so it wasn't clear but also I guess you were thinking I don't want to cause a distraction here exactly exactly so I put it off for that but I probably didn't need to but then even once the world championship was done I still put it off after that so we won it in Qatar I think it took me like three or four races after that to actually actually tell him and I remember Remember the time we were training in Monaco, a race weekend off, and we'd trained all week.

1:02:14And I'd prepared to tell him on the Tuesday, then on the Wednesday, then on the Thursday, and then on the Friday, just before I was about to catch my flight, we finished our session. I'm like, oh, mate, I've got something I need to tell you. I mean, for anyone that's had to tell another half that they're breaking up with them. It was exactly like that. Yeah, and I'm not very good at breakups. So what did you say? what did I say I mean I need to tell you something and I could see his demeanor change straight away I think he kind of expected what was coming next and yeah it's you know probably one of the first times I've seen him like probably upset as well which you know was nice and not so nice at the same time and we had a chat after you know just could we make it work as a split but for us that wouldn't have been wouldn't have been a possibility We were both way too all in for that.

1:03:09So yeah, that was that. And we just decided to have a good end to the year and stay friends, which we still are. So it was hard. It was definitely like a break. Tears? Yeah, for sure. From both of you? Yeah. Really? Not just the welling up, the hard to talk. I actually think it's really important that someone who works alongside a world champion in a sort of macho Formula One sport where it's all about being a gladiator and not showing a weakness. I think it's important that you say that when you go and tell Max that you and him and I work together that you've both got teary eyes or you're both crying.

1:03:44I think that's like, it's a reminder that it's about an emotional connection with someone. It's not about a transactional relationship. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. He had me on the grid in Abu Dhabi 23, so my last race. And actually one of the Dutch reporters saw it because we had told no one. We kept it under wraps. For me, it was just easy to go out quietly. And we're on the grid, getting ready like we normally would do. And I give him his helmet. He puts his helmet on. I give him his gloves. We do our normal handshake. He turns around to go and get in the car. And he turns back, comes and gives me a hug.

1:04:26Literally before he gets in the car. I'm like, oh. and I go back to the garage I get a message from Eric one of the Dutch newspapers he's like what just happened on the grid? really? yeah because it was so against the norm like we have done the same thing for four years and then yeah afterwards as well came straight over so there's a very nice video of that and what is it that you miss the most or what is it that you think about the most because people might think it's a world title or it's those glorious moments of champagne being sprayed but I would imagine from this great conversation we've had.

1:05:01It's actually more about those quiet moments that you would have shared. Yeah, for me, my favorite times were always pre-season in Monaco, you know, just the two of us together, you know, planning and prepping for the season ahead. It was like the calm before the storm or the planning before you go to battle because you knew, okay, we're going to go together now for 22, 23 race weekends, travel everywhere together, go through good moments, tough moments. So yeah, those times in Monaco were definitely my favorite. And of course, you miss the competition. I miss being, you know, working at that highest level.

1:05:42You know, I work with athletes now, but that was the day in, day out. You know, every single day I was thinking about how we're going to win the next race or, you know, what do we need to prepare? What do I need to do better to win world titles? So yeah, you miss that element. But yeah, for me, being together, being part of that. Team Verstappen was a very close unit. It was, once you're part of the family, you were really part of the family. They looked after you. I'd go along to his girlfriend Kelly and a little girl. I'd go along to her birthdays and family dinners and stuff there. And if anything ever went wrong, the Verstappen walls would close around you and you'd be looked after.

1:06:30Love that. Would you work with him again? 100%, yeah. Do you hope to? You know, if the opportunity ever came back, he's got a very good coach now. They're still doing good things, won a world championship together as well. But he knows that if his guy now ever is in the same situation and wants to leave, then he can give me a call. That's lovely. And I sometimes think that you've got a really unique insight now into the small behaviours that you see on track and what it means. And I look at, like, you spent so long working with him mentally, calming him down, making him realise it's about the long game.

1:07:04But then you go and see what happened with George Russell recently, where he sort of angrily kind of had that lunge at George, got himself a penalty, but then came out in the media afterwards and said, what, there wasn't a problem. Then released the social media statement going, okay, I overstepped the mark and I get that now. What does that tell you is sort of still going on under the skin for Max? Yeah, I've had a few messages actually because he had a few instances in the last year as well with Lando too, you know, in the US, in Mexico, in Austria as well where they came together. If you were still working with him, what would you be saying?

1:07:41Trying to, you know, just really bring that calm element back again and start to refocus on what we can achieve each week rather than the kind of bigger picture. I think Barcelona this year was a good example of that. You know, that wasn't George Russell Winston, wasn't it actually? Yeah, for me. And again, I'm not in tune with the inside stuff now, but it seemed like a 2021 moment of Red Bull can't win this race. But they went out to try and win that race and try and beat the McLarens. And Max off the start was in P2. He could have come P2 that weekend. And instead he's P10 with a couple of penalty points on his license.

1:08:22Obviously the team's been through a lot as well with different media and eyes on them. I think a lot of just refocusing, what can we actually achieve race by race? And let's stay calm and try and adapt to what comes. I think it's very interesting because so much of what you've spoken about is that this is a mental, not a physical battle. And when you were working with Matt, and he had a car to win the world title, your job was right. You can win the world title, but it doesn't mean you need to win every race. Now the message actually needs to be to him like, you can't win the world title. You probably can't even win every race or any race at the moment.

1:09:00You know, that McLaren is so fast. So then what do you say to him? So he doesn't do the kinds of things he did in Spain, you know? Yeah, or you can reframe it again. And I think it would be useful for Max and Red Bull to look at it in a way that actually, you might be able to win the world championship. because if Lando and Oscar keep going at each other and you can nip P2 each time. Be that guy. Just pick up your points. We don't have to try and win the race, but if Lando's P1 and Oscar's P3 and then they switch, you're going to be right in the mix. Might be too many points away now, but that would be the message from a few races ago, from me at least.

1:09:42And there's this talk at the moment that Max is being courted by Mercedes Could you ever see that happening? I think the fastest team and max will always be linked. And no one's going to know what happens in 2026. You know, we just see that there's going to be three tests. So nine days of testing, which they've had since like 2016, 2015, something like that. So no one knows who's going to be the fastest. There's engine changes, there's oil changes, there's differences in batteries. All this stuff is way outside my scope. But, you know, you can see that there could potentially be a shake-up. And, yeah, he'll have the choice of wherever he wants to go.

1:10:23But you know the way that his brain works, right? So is he the kind of guy that sticks around at a team because he goes, well, we've got a history and you were great to me five or six years ago and I'd like to help you get back to winning ways? Or is he actually the kind of guy that goes, right, just tell me which car on the grid is the fastest car that wants me and I'll go? so Max is loyal as hell he will stay loyal but only to a point so he'll give I think he'll give Red Bull a chance but if they don't deliver within that year all cards are on the table and he probably also maybe would think about joining a team where there aren't other distractions where there isn't media interest in other parts of that team do you know what I mean yeah I think he's very good at shouting it out and he's loyal he's loyal to the people of Red Bull he also likes Red Bull as a company as well you know they were the the big disruptors the fun kind of company but also they took the chance on Max Verstappen like they did give him the through Toro Rosso they gave him the path to Formula 1 100 % which is why that loyalty will be there so you know this is just my personal opinion I don't think he'll jump but he won't give them long because he's still a winner he still wants to win he's not going to sit around for, you know, however long he signs for.

1:11:43And it probably won't be that long because he's got other interests that he wants to get involved in. However long he signs for, he's only going to want to win. And how good has this period been for you actually to step back? Like, I love the fact that Angela Cullen, who's Lewis's version of you, if you like, you're in touch. I think that's really important for people to understand that someone who was also at the heart of that 2021 battle, that you do converse, you do talk to each other. So how important has it been to be able to actually take a step back for you? Yeah, it's been nice. You know, we talked about, you know, maybe going back or whatever.

1:12:17I would go back with a better version of myself as well, being able to kind of sit back and look at it from a different perspective. I came into F1 never knowing F1. The first race I ever saw, I was in the garage on the mechanics in Austria in 2020. But yeah, it's been nice. Me and Angela had some funny conversations. what did she say that you hadn't even thought about and you thought oh that was the way they saw it on their side apart from just being a pain in the arse not too much what she said that you were a pain in the arse yeah but there was this kind of feeling that you were the kind of villains in that piece wasn't there that season that 2021 season yeah and again Red Bull played the part of the big disruptor very very well and I think you know style of driving not you know for the maybe the older kind of F1 fan it wasn't to their liking but it was also the way we knew we could get results yeah that was the most important thing you know if we've got a slower car we've got to try and do something different you know I think the saddest thing about that whole 2021 episode and by the way I said this is a huge Max Verstappen fan and I love the kind of single-minded determination that he's brought to the sport and he's made people sit up and and see a whole new level of performance.

1:13:38The saddest thing for me is that I do believe Lewis deserves to be called an eight-time world champion. I think to win seven and be that close to an eighth and not get it is kind of heartbreaking. But actually, the most heartbreaking point is that when he won in Silverstone last year, yeah, and he was really emotional, and he basically said, it's taken until now to recover. I think we've been denied the best of Lewis Hamilton for a couple of seasons because of the emotional and psychological toll, actually, of the way 2021 finished. Yeah, it's, personally, I'd be surprised at that. I think, I don't know.

1:14:09You know how this can affect people. Yeah, yeah. Because it wasn't just losing a title, it's losing the eighth, man. This is like, that's the one, and it might never come again for him. Yeah, that's true. But also, I think, you know, you're right, I do. But also, a big part of my role is to pivot that, right, and reconceptualize that. And if that's me working with him, then we're bouncing back as quick as we can. You know, the traits of world champions is how quickly you can recover from setbacks and learn. And I think Lewis's biggest mistake in that year, after Angela left after two races, never replaced her.

1:14:45And never had anybody else by his side for the entire year. So he never had anyone that he could talk to or rely on or, you know, have those quiet moments with. and a phenomenal job doing it on his own but if he'd had someone by the side then maybe the bounce back could have been great we both know he's a deep thinker as well and the strange thing is you can be a world champion at a track with 100 ,000 fans and be as lonely as hell and I imagine that was possibly what he might have experienced after Angela stopped working with him yeah for sure yeah and they're the moments where you need somebody to lean on and bring you back round to coming out of the show as it were well I love that this is the role that's happening in Formula 1 and people like you are doing what you do because when I worked in it the drivers were like why do I need a driver coach like why do I need a personal trainer why do I need someone to sort out my mental side I'll just go and win a race yeah for sure and I think that's it now there's so much about Formula 1 in terms of just the basics like when you get to a race logistics getting to from the track getting in and out of the hotel getting like laundry like the simple things like that And everyone's so big now as well.

1:15:57You know, there's so much going on. Drivers need the mental space to think about actually driving rather than carrying their helmet or, you know, trying to stay cool in 50 degrees track temperature heat. So much more than that. Right, you ready for some quickfire questions? Yeah, go for it.

1:16:18The three non-negotiable behaviors that you think are the most important for us all to perform at our very best? hard work intentional effort and communication very good what's the first thing that you recommend we all do to get out of our own way and and try and live with a bit more flow as you described rebel doing in 23 for me communication has always been the hugest element um we have this saying in physio interaction over intervention i think i've seen it myself as well people opening up to people and being able to talk and lean on not just in the world of work but in personal life as well opens up many many more doors for opportunities and you know that Red Bull team of 2023 was built on trust and communication you know you could look to your left look to your right and you knew that person was going to do their job but then we're going to go and have a beer and a good conversation after as well Brilliant if you go back to one moment in your life where would you choose to go and why?

1:17:20I don't look back too much, but sport has left me missing the birth of my son. So I would go back to that moment. It's a juxtaposition because obviously we would love to be at the birth of a child. That was also Miami 2023, the turning point of that season. He was born on that Sunday. So yeah, I'd go back there. Was Max telling you to go and be at the birth of your child? Or was that he wanted you there at the race? Yeah, I mean, he would have said go. yeah but you didn't even nah didn't mention it what's the greatest advice you've ever been given back yourself but with the context of like developing your own philosophy so in in our world you know a lot of people want to just kind of copy what other people do I think my greatest success came from just starting to develop my own kind of philosophy of working with athletes and other people brilliant and the final question after this brilliant conversation what's the one golden rule that you would like to leave people with for living their own high performance life stick with a communication and say interaction interaction with everybody yeah amazing mate thank you so much I've absolutely loved that a huge thanks to Bradley for joining us and sharing such a rare raw insight into the world of Max Verstappen and what it really takes to succeed at the highest level in Formula 1 Please let me remind you, if you enjoyed this conversation, send it to a friend.

1:18:51If you can hit follow on Apple or Spotify, it is so helpful for us. It takes you just a couple of moments. It means we can give you more stuff like this. And if you want some exclusive extras from every episode, you can get them on the High Performance app. And by the way, if F1's your thing, there's so much more for you. Carlos Sainz, Toto Wolff, Lando Norris, Graham Loudon, Claire Williams. There's so much from the world of Formula One. Thanks for being with us and we'll see you next time.

1:19:41We'll see you next time.

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